Australian Politics Forum
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl
Member Run Boards >> Islam >> difference between wives and sex slaves
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1330815631

Message started by freediver on Mar 4th, 2012 at 9:00am

Title: difference between wives and sex slaves
Post by freediver on Mar 4th, 2012 at 9:00am

falah wrote on Mar 2nd, 2012 at 6:37pm:
In the Islamic tradition, concubines are treated like wives in Islam, and there are lot of rules regarding the good treatment of slaves captured in war. Prophets like Abraham and Solomon lived with their concubines in this manner.

A slave woman with whom a man has intercourse is known as a "sariyyah" (concubine) from the word "sirr", which means marriage in Arabic.


What is the difference between a wife and a 'concubine' under Islamic law? Do they have the same entitlements?

Title: Re: difference between wives and sex slaves
Post by PoliticalPuppet on Mar 4th, 2012 at 9:32am

Quote:
  When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished.  If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property.  (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)


Quote:
However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you.  You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land.  You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance.  You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way.  (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)


Quote:
When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are.  If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again.  But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her.  And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter.  If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife.  If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment.  (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)


Quote:
Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed.  If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful.  You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts.  Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them.  (1 Timothy 6:1-2 NLT)


Quote:
(Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NLT)    If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father.  Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.


Quote:
They must be dividing the spoils they took: there must be a damsel or two for each man, Spoils of dyed cloth as Sisera's spoil, an ornate shawl or two for me in the spoil.   (Judges 5:30 NAB)

Title: Re: difference between wives and sex slaves
Post by Annie Anthrax on Mar 4th, 2012 at 9:47am
FD, who said that it was permissable to have sex with slaves without marriage?

Title: Re: difference between wives and sex slaves
Post by freediver on Mar 4th, 2012 at 9:53am
Falah did above. The issue of sex slaves has come up plenty of times before. I have not seen Abu, Falah nor any of the other Muslims here suggest that they have to marry them first, or even afterwards.

In fact it also came up in the context of the four wives rule. Sex slaves effectively allow a husband to have more than four wives, but I think you have to go to war and kill their husbands first. I suppose that is one difference between a wife and a slave.

Title: Re: difference between wives and sex slaves
Post by Annie Anthrax on Mar 4th, 2012 at 10:10am
Falah, where do you get that sex slaves or concubines are halal in Islam?



Title: Re: difference between wives and sex slaves
Post by NorthOfNorth on Mar 4th, 2012 at 10:20am

Annie Anthrax wrote on Mar 4th, 2012 at 10:10am:
Falah, where do you get that sex slaves or concubines are halal in Islam?

Dementia by religious zeal? Or the (cynical) thought of an opportunity to exploit the weak?

Title: Re: difference between wives and sex slaves
Post by abu_rashid on Mar 4th, 2012 at 10:20am
Annie,

In the Islamic texts, women who are captives are considered to be part of the household, and the man has the same responsibilities to them as he has to his wives, and he therefore also has the same rights with her, which includes the permissibility of sexual relations. She is basically like his wife, she is not merely a piece of property like in the Western concept of slavery, where people were treated like beasts of burden.

Title: Re: difference between wives and sex slaves
Post by NorthOfNorth on Mar 4th, 2012 at 10:21am

abu_rashid wrote on Mar 4th, 2012 at 10:20am:
Annie,

In the Islamic texts, women who are captives are considered to be part of the household, and the man has the same responsibilities to them as he has to his wives, and he therefore also has the same rights with her, which includes the permissibility of sexual relations. She is basically like his wife, she is not merely a piece of property like in the Western concept of slavery, where people were treated like beasts of burden.

QED.

Barely sugar-coated rhetoric that masks the bitter pill of slavery.

Title: Re: difference between wives and sex slaves
Post by abu_rashid on Mar 4th, 2012 at 10:24am
North, my guess is you know very little about Islam, and the place "slaves" had in Islamic society.

Islamic civilisation for instance had not just one, but several instances where slaves actually became the rulers of the state, and enjoyed long lasting dynasties that were exclusively for slaves, and even their free born children were not permitted to inherit their posts.

Do some research, and you'll find that the Islamic concept of "slavery" was nothing like that in the West.

Title: Re: difference between wives and sex slaves
Post by NorthOfNorth on Mar 4th, 2012 at 10:30am

abu_rashid wrote on Mar 4th, 2012 at 10:24am:
North, my guess is you know very little about Islam, and the place "slaves" had in Islamic society.

Islamic civilisation for instance had not just one, but several instances where slaves actually became the rulers of the state, and enjoyed long lasting dynasties that were exclusively for slaves, and even their free born children were not permitted to inherit their posts.

Do some research, and you'll find that the Islamic concept of "slavery" was nothing like that in the West.

I have no doubt that slavery takes many forms... But, in the end, its slavery... The same that prompted Jefferson to act against the Barbary states.

Title: Re: difference between wives and sex slaves
Post by falah on Mar 4th, 2012 at 10:49am
When Islam came, there were already many causes of slavery throughout the world, such as warfare, debt, kidnapping and raids, and poverty and need.

Slavery did not spread in this appalling manner throughout all continents except by means of kidnapping; rather the main source of slaves in Europe and America in later centuries was this method.

The texts of Islam take a strong stance against this. For example, the following hadeeth warns that enslaving people through these illegal means is prohibited: “God, may He be exalted, said: ‘There are three whose opponent I will be on the Day of Resurrection, and whomever I oppose, I will defeat …(and one of those is) A man who sold a free man and consumed his price.’”
(Bukhari 2227)

It is worth pointing out that you do not find any text in the Quran or prophetic tradition which enjoins taking others as slaves, whereas there are dozens of texts in the Quran and the traditions of the Prophet (peace and blessings of God be upon him) which call for manumitting slaves and freeing them.

There were many sources of slaves at the time of the advent of Islam, whereas the means of manumitting them were virtually nil. Islam changed the way in which slavery was dealt with; it created many new ways of liberating slaves, blocked many ways of enslaving people, and established guidelines which blocked these means.

Islam limited the sources of slaves that existed before the beginning of Prophet Muhammed's mission to one way only; enslavement through war which was imposed on prisoners-of-war.

People can only become slaves of Muslims by fighting against the Muslims. Slaves are for the soldiers who sacrificed their lives fighting to protect the Islamic state. However, the ruler of the Islamic state can choose to free the captives of war for nothing or for a ransom, if that serves the interests of the Muslims.

In the past, capture of prisoners during war was the most common way of acquiring slaves. Prisoners would inevitably be captured during any war, and the prevalent custom at that time was that prisoners had no protection or rights; they would either be killed or enslaved. But Islam brought two more options: unconditional release or ransom. God says in the Quran (interpretation of the meaning): “Thereafter (is the time) either for generosity (i.e. free them without ransom), or ransom (according to what benefits the Islamic state)”
(The Quran, Muhammad, v.4)

During the battle of Badr, the Prophet (peace and blessings of God be upon him) accepted ransoms from the pagan prisoners of war and let them go, and the Prophet even let many of the poorer prisoners go for free, releasing them with no ransom. During the conquest of Mecca it was said to the people of Mecca: “Go, for you are free.”

During the campaign of Banul-Mustaliq, the Prophet (peace and blessings of God be upon him) married a female prisoner from the defeated tribe so as to raise her status, as she was the daughter of one of their leaders, Juwayriyah bint al-Harith. When the Muslims saw her honoured in this way, they let all of the other prisoners go out of respect to the Prophet's new wife.

Islam is not thirsty for the blood of prisoners, nor is it eager to enslave them.

Thus we may understand the limited ways that can lead to slavery in the Islamic state. Islam did not abolish slavery altogether, because the enemy who attacked the Islamic state was opposed to truth and justice was a wrongdoer, or was a supporter of wrongdoing or was a tool in the execution or approval of wrongdoing. Letting him go free would give him the opportunity to spread wrongdoing and aggression against others and to oppose the truth and prevent it reaching people. So slavery prevents the malevolet people from continuing their malevolence in the future.

Freedom is a basic human right which cannot be taken away from a person except for a reason. When Islam accepted slavery within the limits enslaving only those who fight the Islamic state, it put restrictions on the man who exploits his freedom in the worst possible way. However, if he was taken prisoner in a war of aggression in which he was defeated, then the proper conduct is to keep him in reasonable conditions throughout his detention.

Islam offers many opportunities to restore freedom to him and people like him.

The principle of dealing with slaves in Islam is a combination of justice, kindness and compassion.

One of the means of liberating slaves is allocating a portion of funds collected by the Islamic state in the alms tax towards freeing slaves. Freeing slaves is promoted in Islam, and is considered expiation for certain sins. Freeing slaves is prescribed as expiation for serious sins  such as breaking an oath, involuntary manslaughter, certain types of spousal abuse, and having intercourse during the day in Ramadan fasting. In addition to that, Muslims are also encouraged in general terms to free slaves for the sake of gaining God's pleasure.

This is a brief summary of some of the principles of dealing with slaves in a just and kind manner:

1 – Guaranteeing them food and clothing like that of their masters.

Abu Dharr said: "The Apostle of God said: “They are your brothers whom God has put under your authority, so if God has put a person’s brother under his authority, let him feed him from what he eats and clothe him from what he wears, and let him not overburden him with work, and if he does overburden him with work, then let him help him.”"
(Bukhari 6050)

2 – Preserving their dignity

Abu Hurayrah said: I heard Abul-Qasim [Abul-Qasim was a patronymic nickname for Prophet Muhammed peace and blessings of God be upon him] say: “Whoever accuses his slave when he is innocent of what he says will be flogged on the Day of Resurrection, unless he (the slave) is as he (the master) said.”
(Bukhari 6858)

Ibn ‘Umar manumitted a slave of his, then he said I heard the Apostle of God say: “Whoever slaps his slave or beats him, his expiation is to manumit him.” (Muslim 1657)

3 – Being fair towards slaves and treating them kindly

Uthman ibn Affan [who became the third Caliph of the Islamic state] tweaked the ear of a slave of his when he did something wrong, then he said to him after that: "Come and tweak my ear in retaliation." The slave refused but he insisted, so he started to tweak it slightly, and he said to him: "Do it strongly, for I cannot bear the punishment on the Day of Resurrection." The slave said: "Like that, O my master? The Day that you fear I fear also."

When a wealthy companion of Prophet Muhammed named Abdur-Rahman ibn Awf walked among his slaves, no one could tell him apart from them, because he did not walk ahead of them, and he did not wear anything different from what they wore.

One day Umar ibn al-Khattab [who became the 2nd Caliph of the Islamic state] passed by and saw some slaves standing and not eating with their master. He got angry and said to their master: "What is wrong with people who are selfish towards their servants?" Then he called the servants and they ate with them.

A man entered upon Salman al-Farsi (who had been a Christian who had converted to Islam and became a companion of Prophet Muhammed) and found him making dough – and by this time Salman had become a governor in the Islamic state. The man said to him: O Abu Abdullah, what is this? [eg. why are you doing this manual labour] He said: We have sent our slave on an errand and we do not want to give him two jobs at once.

4 – There is nothing wrong with slaves having precedence over free men in some matters

- with regard to any religious or worldly matters in which he excels over him. For example, it is valid for a slave to lead Muslims in prayer. A’ishah, the wife of Prophet Muhammed had a slave who would lead her in prayer. Indeed the Muslims have been commanded to hear and obey even if a slave is appointed in charge of their affairs.

5 – A slave may buy himself from his master and be free.

If a person is enslaved for some reason but then it becomes apparent that he has given up his wrongdoing and forgotten his past, and he has become a man who shuns evil and seeks to do good, is it permissible to respond to his request to let him go free? Islam says yes, and there are some Islamic scholars who say that it is actually compulsory to free such a slave, and other scholars who say that it that freeing such slaves is an action that God loves.

This is what is called a contract of manumission between the slave and his master. God says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And such of your slaves as seek a writing (of emancipation), give them such writing, if you find that there is good and honesty in them. And give them something (yourselves) out of the wealth of God which He has bestowed upon you”
[The Quran, an-Noor v.33]

This is how Islam treats slaves justly and kindly.

One of the results of these guidelines is that in many cases, the slave would become a friend of his master; in some cases the master would regard him as a son. Sa’d ibn Hashim al-Kaalidi said, describing a slave of his:

"He is not a slave, rather he is a son whom [God] has put under my care. He has supported me with his good service; he is my hands and my arms."

Another result of the Muslims treating slaves in this manner is that the slaves became part of Muslim families as if they were also family members. 

Gustave le Bon says in Hadarat al-‘Arab (Arab Civilization) (p. 459-460): "What I sincerely believe is that slavery among the Muslims is better than slavery among any other people, and that the situation of slaves in the East is better than that of servants in Europe, and that slaves in the East are part of the family. Slaves who wanted to be free could attain freedom by expressing their wish. But despite that, they did not resort to exercising this righ

Title: Re: difference between wives and sex slaves
Post by NorthOfNorth on Mar 4th, 2012 at 10:53am
Instead of arguing the difference between slavery and... slavery, the most significant question worthy of debate should be... Why slavery at all?

Title: Re: difference between wives and sex slaves
Post by Annie Anthrax on Mar 4th, 2012 at 10:54am

abu_rashid wrote on Mar 4th, 2012 at 10:20am:
Annie,

In the Islamic texts, women who are captives are considered to be part of the household, and the man has the same responsibilities to them as he has to his wives, and he therefore also has the same rights with her, which includes the permissibility of sexual relations. She is basically like his wife, she is not merely a piece of property like in the Western concept of slavery, where people were treated like beasts of burden.



Abu, does it say in the Quran that men can have a sexual relationship with slaves? In al Nisa, it says they can marry them. Why would they bother if they can just have halal sex with them anyway?


Title: Re: difference between wives and sex slaves
Post by Annie Anthrax on Mar 4th, 2012 at 10:57am

Quote:
Gustave le Bon says in Hadarat al-‘Arab (Arab Civilization) (p. 459-460): "What I sincerely believe is that slavery among the Muslims is better than slavery among any other people


It's still crap for those on the receiving end though, isn't it?

Title: Re: difference between wives and sex slaves
Post by falah on Mar 4th, 2012 at 11:25am
How did non-Muslims treat slaves?

Attitude of the Jews towards slaves:

According to the Jews, mankind is divided into two groups: the Israelites form one group and all of mankind is another group. 

As for the Israelites, it is permissible to enslave some of them, according to specific teachings contained in the Old Testament.

As for people other than the Israelites, they are a low-class race according to the Jews, who may be enslaved via domination and subjugation, because they are people who are doomed to humiliation by the heavenly decree from eternity:


Quote:
If you buy a Hebrew servant, he is to serve you for six years. But in the seventh year, he shall go free, without paying anything. If he comes alone, he is to go free alone; but if he has a wife when he comes, she is to go with him. If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the woman and her children shall belong to her master, and only the man shall go free.  But if the servant declares, 'I love my master and my wife and children and do not want to go free,' then his master must take him before the judges. He shall take him to the door or the doorpost and pierce his ear with an awl. Then he will be his servant for life”
[Exodus 21:2-6]


As for enslaving non-Hebrews, this is done by taking them captive or overpowering them, because they believe that their race is superior to others, and they try to find a justification for that slavery in their corrupted Torah. So they say that Ham the son of Noah – who was the father of Canaan – angered his father, because Noah was drunk one day and became naked as he was sleeping in his tent, and Ham saw him like that. When Noah found out about that after he woke up, he got angry and he cursed his progeny who were descendents of Canaan, and he said – according to the Book of Genesis 9:25-26:


Quote:
Cursed be Canaan! The lowest of slaves will he be to his brothers.’ He also said, ‘Blessed be the LORD, the God of Shem! May Canaan be the slave of Shem.’


In the same chapter (v. 27) it says:

Quote:
May God extend the territory of Japheth; may Japheth live in the tents of Shem, and may Canaan be his [or their] slave”.


In the Book of Deuteronomy 20:10-14, it says:


Quote:
When you march up to attack a city, make its people an offer of peace. If they accept and open their gates, all the people in it shall be subject to forced labor and shall work for you. If they refuse to make peace and they engage you in battle, lay siege to that city. When the LORD your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it. As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves


Attitude of the Christians towards slaves:

Christianity confirmed slavery as it had been affirmed beforehand by Judaism. There is no text in the Gospels that prohibits or denounces slavery. It is remarkable that the historian William Muir criticized our Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of God be upon him) for not immediately abolishing slavery, whilst overlooking the attitude of the Gospels concerning slavery, as there is no report from Christ, or from the Disciples, or from the churches concerning this issue.

Rather, in his Epistles, Paul advised that slaves should be loyal to their masters, as he says in his Epistle to the Ephesians, where he enjoins slaves to obey their masters as they would obey the Christ:


Quote:
Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ. Obey them not only to win their favor when their eye is on you, but like slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from your heart. Serve wholeheartedly, as if you were serving the Lord, not men, because you know that the Lord will reward everyone for whatever good he does, whether he is slave or free”
(Ephesians 6:5-9).


In Grand Larousse encyclopédique, it says:


Quote:
It comes as no surprise that slavery has continued among Christians until today; the official representatives of the faith have affirmed its validity and accepted its legitimacy.

… to sum up: the Christian religion approved fully of slavery and still does so today. It is very difficult for anyone to prove that Christianity strove to abolish slavery.

The saints affirmed that nature makes some people slaves.

Churchmen did not prevent slavery or oppose it; rather they supported it, to such an extent that the philosopher saint Thomas Aquinas supported the philosophical view that agreed with the view of religious leaders, and he did not object to slavery, rather he praised it because – according to the view of Aristotle – it is one of the conditions in which some people are created naturally, and it does not contradict faith for a man to be content with the lowest position in life.


In the Dictionary of the Bible by Dr. George Yousuf it says:


Quote:
Christianity did not object to slavery for political or economic reasons, and it did not urge believers to oppose their generation’s views with regard to slavery, or even debate it, and it did not say anything against the rights of slave owners or motivate the slaves to seek independence; it did not discuss the harm or harshness of slavery and it did not enjoin the immediate release of slaves. 

It did not change anything in the nature of the relationship between master and slave; on the contrary, it affirmed the rights and duties of both parties.


Contemporary Europe and slavery

In this era of advancement and progress, to ask questions about the pioneers of this progress and the numbers of people who died because of the way in which they were hunted, and who died on their way to the coast where the ships of the English Royal African Company and others would wait, then the rest died due to changes in climate. Approximately 4% died as they were being loaded onto the ships, and 12 % during the journey, let alone those who died in the colonies.

The slave trade continued at the hands of English companies that obtained the right of monopoly with the permission of the British government, then gave free rein to British subjects to enslave people. Some experts estimate that the total number of people seized by the British during slavery and exiled to the colonies between 1680 and 1786 CE was around 2,130,000.

When Europe made contact with Black Africa, this contact led to human misery during which the black people of that continent were faced with a major calamity that lasted for five centuries. The states of Europe came up with evil ways of kidnapping these people and bringing them to their lands to serve as fuel for their revival, where they burdened them with more work than they could bear. When America was discovered, the calamity increased and they became slaves in two continents instead of just one.

The Encyclopaedia Britannica says (2/779) on the topic of slavery:


Quote:
Hunting slaves in the villages that were surrounded by the jungle was done by lighting fires in the straw of which the corrals surrounding the villages were made, then when the villagers fled to open land, the British hunted them down with whatever means they had at their disposal.


During the period from 1661 to 1774, for every million Black Africans who reached the Americas, a further nine million died during the hunting, loading and transportation. In other words, only one tenth of those who were hunted survived and actually reached the Americas, where they found no rest or relief, rather they were subjected to hard labour and torture.

At that time, they had laws which any wise person would be ashamed of.

Among these evil laws were those which said that any slave who transgressed against his master was to be killed, and any slave who ran away was to have his hands and feet cut off, and he was to be branded with hot iron; if he ran away again, he was to be killed. How could he run away if his hands and feet had been cut off?!

It was forbidden for a black man to become educated, and the jobs of whites were forbidden to coloureds.

In America, if seven black people gathered together, that was regarded as a crime, and if a white man passed by them it was permissible for him to spit at them and give them twenty lashes.

Another law stated that the blacks had no soul and that they possessed no smartness, intelligence or willpower, and that life existed only in their arms.

To sum up, with regard to his duties and service to his master, the slave was regarded as sane, responsible and punishable if he fell short, but with regard to his rights, he had no soul and no being, and he was not more than a strong pair of arms!

Finally, after many centuries of enslavement and oppression, there came the protocol to abolish slavery and strive to put an end to it, in a resolution issued by the United Nations in 1953 CE.

Hence their consciences did not awaken until the last two centuries, after they had built their civilization on the corpses of free men whom they had enslaved unlawfully. What fair-minded person can compare this with the teachings of Islam, which came encouraging the freeing of slaves fourteen hundred years ago?


If you are interested to read about the rape and mistreatment of black slave girls by white Christian Americans the following is an interesting read as it an autobiographical account of a slave woman:

Incidents in the Life of a Slave Girl, Harriet Jacobs, Oxford University Press, (1st published in 1861, republished in 1988)

Title: Re: difference between wives and sex slaves
Post by abu_rashid on Mar 4th, 2012 at 11:26am
Annie, indeed you can marry them, and obviously if you're going to have children with them, then marrying them would make a lot more sense, so your children can grow up with their parents married.

Actually "slavery" was often a great opportunity for people in the Islamic lands. It usually meant they'd be educated and fed and clothed well and would not need to worry about fending for themselves. In many cases it would also mean they'd have access to government positions and military training.

Even in states where slaves did not rule, they were often still in the upper classes, because of the fact Islam required equal treatment for slaves as with any other member of the household.

Obviously slavery is not the ideal circumstance, and Islam in all instances encourages the freeing of slaves and the reduction of the institution of it.

Title: Re: difference between wives and sex slaves
Post by NorthOfNorth on Mar 4th, 2012 at 11:27am
Falah, again... Why slavery at all?

Title: Re: difference between wives and sex slaves
Post by freediver on Mar 4th, 2012 at 11:27am

Quote:
Islam limited the sources of slaves that existed before the beginning of Prophet Muhammed's mission to one way only; enslavement through war which was imposed on prisoners-of-war.


What about the children of slaves?


Quote:
People can only become slaves of Muslims by fighting against the Muslims. Slaves are for the soldiers who sacrificed their lives fighting to protect the Islamic state.


How can they be for dead people? Don't they go to the soldiers that survive?


Quote:
However, the ruler of the Islamic state can choose to free the captives of war for nothing or for a ransom, if that serves the interests of the Muslims.


Can you explain how this is an improvement on previous practices, other than making it more organised?


Quote:
But Islam brought two more options: unconditional release or ransom.


Why was release not an option beforehand? Are you suggesting that Islam introduced the concept of ransom?


Quote:
Letting him go free would give him the opportunity to spread wrongdoing and aggression against others and to oppose the truth and prevent it reaching people. So slavery prevents the malevolet people from continuing their malevolence in the future.


That is kind of you.


Quote:
certain types of spousal abuse


Can you elaborate please?


Quote:
1 – Guaranteeing them food and clothing like that of their masters.

Abu Dharr said: "The Apostle of God said: “They are your brothers whom God has put under your authority, so if God has put a person’s brother under his authority, let him feed him from what he eats and clothe him from what he wears, and let him not overburden him with work, and if he does overburden him with work, then let him help him.”"


How is this different to saying give them the leftovers and old clothes?


Quote:
2 – Preserving their dignity


Can you explain how to rape a slave in a dignified manner?


Quote:
Actually "slavery" was often a great opportunity for people in the Islamic lands. It usually meant they'd be educated and fed and clothed well and would not need to worry about fending for themselves. In many cases it would also mean they'd have access to government positions and military training.


This is the same rhetoric used the world over by slave owners. Nice of you to send them off to war for you also.

Title: Re: difference between wives and sex slaves
Post by NorthOfNorth on Mar 4th, 2012 at 11:34am

abu_rashid wrote on Mar 4th, 2012 at 11:26am:
Actually "slavery" was often a great opportunity for people in the Islamic lands. It usually meant they'd be educated and fed and clothed well and would not need to worry about fending for themselves. In many cases it would also mean they'd have access to government positions and military training.

Gawd... I can see the advert now...

"Are you paying too much for your car insurance?

Are expenses getting you down?

Are the costs of your kids' upbringing just not worth the hassle?

Then you should try SLAVERY... Forget the bills, the expenses and the cost of those worthless kids and put them all in the hands of new SLAVEMASTER



abu_rashid wrote on Mar 4th, 2012 at 11:26am:
Obviously slavery is not the ideal circumstance, and Islam in all instances encourages the freeing of slaves and the reduction of the institution of it.

Maybe not ideal... But here's a deal... How about I kidnap your kids and put them to work in the back yard.... I'll pay them with a halal ice cream and set them free when they're done manicuring the lawn with nail-clippers... An even better deal... You can kidnap my lazy bastard of a son and put him to work in your back yard... That way we can beat the shite out of them for failing in their chores (after all, they're slaves) and still be kosher... oops, I mean, Halal... or whatever.


Title: Re: difference between wives and sex slaves
Post by Annie Anthrax on Mar 4th, 2012 at 11:46am

Quote:
Obviously slavery is not the ideal circumstance, and Islam in all instances encourages the freeing of slaves and the reduction of the institution of it.



Yes. Sins are forgiven for the freeing of slaves.


I hate to be a Freediver here, but do you have a reference to a verse in the Quran that gives permission for sex with slaves. I can't find anything. The Quran has all the marriage requirements for Muslims and the treatment of slaves - surely it would mention something like this?

My husband says it's zina and therefore haram - that in Islam, sexual intercourse is only ever permissable within the confines of marriage and that if a man wants to have sex with a slave, he must marry her with the persmission of both the woman and her family.

Title: Re: difference between wives and sex slaves
Post by falah on Mar 4th, 2012 at 11:49am

Annie Anthrax wrote on Mar 4th, 2012 at 10:10am:
Falah, where do you get that sex slaves or concubines are halal in Islam?


Some of the prophets took concubines. Abraham had Hagar, and she bore him a son. The prophet's are the best examples of mankind. In certain circumstances, God has shown us through their example that taking concubines is allowed.

In Islam, a concubine is like a wife, and the word for concubine in Arabic (sariyyah) comes from the word for marriage (sirr).

Abraham and Muhammed treated their concbines like wives.

The verse of the Quran saying that marrying slaves is allowed was revealed after the Islamic state was attacked by the pagans at the Battle of Uhud (interpretation of the meaning):

“...then marry women of your choice, two or three, or four; but if you fear that you shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one or (slaves) that your right hands possess. That is nearer to prevent you from doing injustice”
[an-Nisaa' v.4]

Title: Re: difference between wives and sex slaves
Post by Yadda on Mar 5th, 2012 at 11:54am

abu_rashid wrote on Mar 4th, 2012 at 10:20am:
Annie,

In the Islamic texts, women who are captives are considered to be part of the household, and the man has the same responsibilities to them as he has to his wives, and he therefore also has the same rights with her, which includes the permissibility of sexual relations.

She is basically like his wife, she is not merely a piece of property like in the Western concept of slavery, where people were treated like beasts of burden.



Lies, Abu.

OR, Abu lies.

Both true.




ISLAM respects women [.....apart from the fact that ISLAMIC holy texts state that women are mentally deficient]
/sarc off



+++
THE 'RIGHTS'(?) OF WOMEN IN ISLAM e.g. #1

The Koran [Allah] instructs moslems to beat disobedient wives, but ever so lightly.

And you know, don't you, that moslem men do beat their wives,...ever so lightly.

"Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all)."
Koran 4.034


Actually, the 'clarifying' insertion "(lightly)", DOES NOT APPEAR IN THE ARABIC, IN THE KORAN.

And that this 'insertion' is [has been] added in some English translations of the Koran - to mislead those readers of the English translation of the Koran, one can only assume.i
+++
THE 'RIGHTS'(?) OF WOMEN IN ISLAM e.g. #2

IMO, within ISLAM, women have the status of cattle or 'fields'.

The Koran [i.e. Allah] states that the woman, the wife, has the status of a field [of earth, 'tilth'].

And her husband may use her [plough her] as he wishes ['how ye will'].

And remember that every word in the Koran, has the sanctity of coming directly from Allah himself.

And remember also, that Allah is never wrong, mistaken.


"Your wives are as a tilth unto you; so approach your tilth when or how ye will; but do some good act for your souls beforehand; and fear Allah. And know that ye are to meet Him (in the Hereafter), and give (these) good tidings to those who believe."
Koran 2.223


Dictionary;
tilth = = cultivation of land; tillage.i
+++
THE 'RIGHTS'(?) OF WOMEN IN ISLAM e.g. #3

Under ISLAMIC inheritance law.
Any daughter receives 1/2 the entitlement of any male heir.
e.g.
Where there is a son, and a daughter, to inherit an estate.
The estate is divided into 3 parts.
The son receives 2 parts.
The daughter receives 1 part.

"Allah (thus) directs you as regards your Children's (Inheritance): to the male, a portion equal to that of two females: if only daughters, two or more, their share is two-thirds of the inheritance; if only one, her share is a half...."
Koran 4.11




Title: Re: difference between wives and sex slaves
Post by Yadda on Mar 5th, 2012 at 12:04pm

Annie Anthrax wrote on Mar 4th, 2012 at 11:46am:
I hate to be a Freediver here, but do you have a reference to a verse in the Quran that gives permission for sex with slaves. I can't find anything. The Quran has all the marriage requirements for Muslims and the treatment of slaves - surely it would mention something like this?

My husband says it's zina and therefore haram - that in Islam, sexual intercourse is only ever permissable within the confines of marriage and that if a man wants to have sex with a slave, he must marry her with the persmission of both the woman and her family.




Annie,


FROM THE KORAN,

Allah is talking about who moslem men may have SEX, and about with whom SEX is lawful.


"..Also (prohibited are) women already married, except those whom your right hands possess:..."
Koran 4.22-24

"O Prophet! We have made lawful to thee thy wives to whom thou hast paid their dowers; and those whom thy right hand possesses out of the prisoners of war whom Allah has assigned to thee;..."
Koran 33.50

"women.....whom your right hands possess" ???

Q.
What does that mean ???

A.
war booty, i.e. female captives.



Title: Re: difference between wives and sex slaves
Post by Yadda on Mar 5th, 2012 at 12:31pm

falah wrote on Mar 4th, 2012 at 11:49am:

Annie Anthrax wrote on Mar 4th, 2012 at 10:10am:
Falah, where do you get that sex slaves or concubines are halal in Islam?


Some of the prophets took concubines. Abraham had Hagar, and she bore him a son. The prophet's are the best examples of mankind. In certain circumstances, God has shown us through their example that taking concubines is allowed.







falah said.....
".....The prophet's are the best examples of mankind......God has shown us through their example that taking concubines is allowed."

That is a lie.

It is a complete moslem FALSEHOOD.





e.g.
God's law specifically prohibited prophets and kings from taking many wives.

Because God knew, that in having many wives, their wives would turn their hearts away from God, and away from his law, and away from God's statutes and judgements.

God knew that the lusts of the flesh would turn even king David and king Solomon away from God's ways.


Deuteronomy 17:14
When thou art come unto the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, and shalt possess it, and shalt dwell therein, and shalt say, I will set a king over me, like as all the nations that are about me;
15  Thou shalt in any wise set him king over thee, whom the LORD thy God shall choose: one from among thy brethren shalt thou set king over thee: thou mayest not set a stranger over thee, which is not thy brother.
16  But he shall not multiply horses to himself, nor cause the people to return to Egypt, to the end that he should multiply horses: forasmuch as the LORD hath said unto you, Ye shall henceforth return no more that way.
17  Neither shall he multiply wives to himself, that his heart turn not away: neither shall he greatly multiply to himself silver and gold.
18  And it shall be, when he sitteth upon the throne of his kingdom, that he shall write him a copy of this law in a book out of that which is before the priests the Levites:
19  And it shall be with him, and he shall read therein all the days of his life: that he may learn to fear the LORD his God, to keep all the words of this law and these statutes, to do them:
20  That his heart be not lifted up above his brethren, and that he turn not aside from the commandment, to the right hand, or to the left: to the end that he may prolong his days in his kingdom, he, and his children, in the midst of Israel.



God's law specifically prohibited prophets and kings from taking many wives, AND YET, prophets like David and Solomon ignored God's law, and took to themselves many wives.



1 Kings 10:26
And Solomon gathered together chariots and horsemen: and he had a thousand and four hundred chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen, whom he bestowed in the cities for chariots, and with the king at Jerusalem.
27  And the king made silver to be in Jerusalem as stones, and cedars made he to be as the sycomore trees that are in the vale, for abundance.
28  And Solomon had horses brought out of Egypt, and linen yarn: the king's merchants received the linen yarn at a price.
29  And a chariot came up and went out of Egypt for six hundred shekels of silver, and an horse for an hundred and fifty: and so for all the kings of the Hittites, and for the kings of Syria, did they bring them out by their means.

1 Kings 11:1
But king Solomon loved many strange women, together with the daughter of Pharaoh, women of the Moabites, Ammonites, Edomites, Zidonians, and Hittites;
2  Of the nations concerning which the LORD said unto the children of Israel, Ye shall not go in to them, neither shall they come in unto you: for surely they will turn away your heart after their gods: Solomon clave unto these in love.
And he had seven hundred wives, princesses, and three hundred concubines: and his wives turned away his heart.
4  For it came to pass, when Solomon was old, that his wives turned away his heart after other gods: and his heart was not perfect with the LORD his God, as was the heart of David his father.
5  For Solomon went after Ashtoreth the goddess of the Zidonians, and after Milcom the abomination of the Ammonites.
And Solomon did evil in the sight of the LORD, and went not fully after the LORD, as did David his father.
7  Then did Solomon build an high place for Chemosh, the abomination of Moab, in the hill that is before Jerusalem, and for Molech, the abomination of the children of Ammon.
8  And likewise did he for all his strange wives, which burnt incense and sacrificed unto their gods.



Title: Re: difference between wives and sex slaves
Post by Frances on Mar 5th, 2012 at 1:21pm
All these historical references are interesting, but what exactly is the current position regarding women and sex in the Arab world, and what countries, if any, still have slaves?

Title: Re: difference between wives and sex slaves
Post by Baronvonrort on Mar 5th, 2012 at 2:00pm

Frances wrote on Mar 5th, 2012 at 1:21pm:
All these historical references are interesting, but what exactly is the current position regarding women and sex in the Arab world, and what countries, if any, still have slaves?


For women's rights Quran 4:34 sums them up.
Please read all english translations.
http://quran.com/4/34

Last year a Kuwaiti female -

Quote:
On spotting the unaccountably vacant niche in the local market for enslaved concubines,however,Salwa didnt hang around but seized the entrepreneurial initiative in a whole new way,putting forward a proposal to legalize sex slavery as a radical 2 in 1 way f satisfying the carnal appetites of Kuwait's bachelor population while tackling the moral corruption of prostitution that blights society.
Because,as we all know ,nothing says moral superiority quite like legalizing slavery.


She's not accepting just any old slaves though,hell no.Given the Russian state's longstanding and brutal oppression of the muslim chechen people,our righteous champion of justice is ready for handing out some old fashioned reciprocal brutal persecution,by enslaving only white Russian prisoners of war seized by Chechen fighters.


Source-http://www.kuwaittimes.net/read_news.php?newsid=MjEzMDczMjI0Mw

Here is a fawa on sex slaves they make no effort to discourage this-
http://www.askimam.org/fatwa/fatwa.php?askid=182a6760abb8a132392414c4be26ef57

Google "sex slaves in Islam" there are over 6 million results.

Title: Re: difference between wives and sex slaves
Post by freediver on Mar 5th, 2012 at 6:12pm
I think pressure from Great Britain was largely responsible for finally outlawing slavery in the middle east, around the time of the final collapse of the empire. Obviously it took a lot longer than that to actually get rid of it and it is still common in many areas.

Title: Re: difference between wives and sex slaves
Post by Annie Anthrax on Mar 5th, 2012 at 6:19pm

freediver wrote on Mar 5th, 2012 at 6:12pm:
I think pressure from Great Britain was largely responsible for finally outlawing slavery in the middle east, around the time of the final collapse of the empire. Obviously it took a lot longer than that to actually get rid of it and it is still common in many areas.



Where in the Middle East is slavery legal?

Title: Re: difference between wives and sex slaves
Post by freediver on Mar 5th, 2012 at 6:21pm
I don't think it is still legal anywhere. I think many of the oil barons still get away with it.

Title: Re: difference between wives and sex slaves
Post by Annie Anthrax on Mar 5th, 2012 at 6:24pm
If there's still sexual slavery in Australia, it doesn't surprise me that rich Arabs are involved and responsible for similar circumstances in their countries.

Title: Re: difference between wives and sex slaves
Post by Baronvonrort on Mar 5th, 2012 at 6:31pm

Annie Anthrax wrote on Mar 5th, 2012 at 6:19pm:
Where in the Middle East is slavery legal?


The Taliban were the only ones doing sharia properly so lets see...ahh yes.


Quote:
Bacha Bazi  or bacha bereesh (beardless boy) is sexual slavery and child prostitution in which prepubescent and adolescent boys are sold to wealthy or powerful men for entertainment and sexual activities


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bacha_bazi

Islamic chatroom confirming this is true and far more widespread than reported-
http://www.sunniport.com/masabih/showthread.php?t=7935

Title: Re: difference between wives and sex slaves
Post by falah on Mar 5th, 2012 at 8:06pm

Baronvonrort wrote on Mar 5th, 2012 at 6:31pm:

Annie Anthrax wrote on Mar 5th, 2012 at 6:19pm:
Where in the Middle East is slavery legal?


The Taliban were the only ones doing sharia properly so lets see...ahh yes.


Quote:
Bacha Bazi  or bacha bereesh (beardless boy) is sexual slavery and child prostitution in which prepubescent and adolescent boys are sold to wealthy or powerful men for entertainment and sexual activities


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bacha_bazi

Islamic chatroom confirming this is true and far more widespread than reported-
http://www.sunniport.com/masabih/showthread.php?t=7935


The Taliban did not permit this. It is the US-allied warlords who do it.

Afghan boy dancers sexually abused by former warlords

...the practice which has angered Islamic clerics who say those involved should be stoned for sodomy, forbidden under Islamic law...

...in northern Afghanistan, former warlords and mujahideen commanders have taken that a step further with competitions for their dancing boys...

..."Every boy tries to be the first. They are dressed in women's clothes, have bells on their feet and have artificial breasts," said Mohammad Yawar, a former mujahideen fighter against the Taliban and resident of the northern town of Pul-e Khumri...

..."I very much enjoy hugging a boy. His smell and fragrance kills me," said Yawar...

http://www.reuters.com/article/2007/11/19/us-afghan-dancingboys-idUSISL1848920071119



Quote:
..in northern Afghanistan, former warlords and mujahideen commanders have taken that a step further with competitions for their dancing boys...


The Taliban are from the South. It is the northern warlords (who are allied with the US and Australian governments) that are the child abusers.

Title: Re: difference between wives and sex slaves
Post by Baronvonrort on Mar 5th, 2012 at 8:14pm

Baronvonrort wrote on Mar 5th, 2012 at 6:31pm:
The Taliban were the only ones doing sharia properly so lets see...ahh yes.


Quote:
Bacha Bazi  or bacha bereesh (beardless boy) is sexual slavery and child prostitution in which prepubescent and adolescent boys are sold to wealthy or powerful men for entertainment and sexual activities


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bacha_bazi

Islamic chatroom confirming this is true and far more widespread than reported-
http://www.sunniport.com/masabih/showthread.php?t=7935



Falah
go into the Islamic chatroom  have linked and read how they confirm this is true and far more widespread than reported.

everyone else is probably going to read it ,its a muslim chatroom you should read it too.

Your link is defective


Title: Re: difference between wives and sex slaves
Post by abu_rashid on Mar 6th, 2012 at 5:34am

freediver wrote on Mar 5th, 2012 at 6:12pm:
I think pressure from Great Britain was largely responsible for finally outlawing slavery in the middle east, around the time of the final collapse of the empire. Obviously it took a lot longer than that to actually get rid of it and it is still common in many areas.


The Ottoman Caliphate abolished slavery in the 19th. century.

In contrast, the last British "realm" to abolish slavery was northern Nigeria, in 1936.



Title: Re: difference between wives and sex slaves
Post by abu_rashid on Mar 6th, 2012 at 5:36am
Baronvonrort,

You've been educated before that the Taliban wiped this filth out, and almost eradicated these beasts ccompletely. The U.S and her allies are the ones who brought them back to power. Western bases (Canadian) have been reportedly used to commit these acts as well.

Title: Re: difference between wives and sex slaves
Post by Frances on Mar 6th, 2012 at 6:43am

falah wrote on Mar 5th, 2012 at 8:06pm:
The Taliban are from the South. It is the northern warlords (who are allied with the US and Australian governments) that are the child abusers.


And what religion do the northern warlords follow?

Title: Re: difference between wives and sex slaves
Post by NorthOfNorth on Mar 6th, 2012 at 7:28am

abu_rashid wrote on Mar 6th, 2012 at 5:34am:

freediver wrote on Mar 5th, 2012 at 6:12pm:
I think pressure from Great Britain was largely responsible for finally outlawing slavery in the middle east, around the time of the final collapse of the empire. Obviously it took a lot longer than that to actually get rid of it and it is still common in many areas.


The Ottoman Caliphate abolished slavery in the 19th. century.

In contrast, the last British "realm" to abolish slavery was northern Nigeria, in 1936.

Of course, no Islamic religious texts were amended to include the language of abolitionism nor redact the language of its actual or tacit condoning.

Mauritania, (with nearly a 100% Muslim population), practises slavery today.

Title: Re: difference between wives and sex slaves
Post by freediver on Mar 6th, 2012 at 8:26am

abu_rashid wrote on Mar 6th, 2012 at 5:34am:

freediver wrote on Mar 5th, 2012 at 6:12pm:
I think pressure from Great Britain was largely responsible for finally outlawing slavery in the middle east, around the time of the final collapse of the empire. Obviously it took a lot longer than that to actually get rid of it and it is still common in many areas.


The Ottoman Caliphate abolished slavery in the 19th. century.

In contrast, the last British "realm" to abolish slavery was northern Nigeria, in 1936.


Are you trying to contradict me Abu, or is that what passes for positive spin when it comes to Islam?

Title: Re: difference between wives and sex slaves
Post by falah on Mar 6th, 2012 at 12:43pm

Baronvonrort wrote on Mar 5th, 2012 at 8:14pm:
Your link is defective


The link is not defective. The link you provided is to a group of grave-worshippers.

The main poster in the thread is a deviant Naqshabandi. The Naqshabandis believe in things which contradict Islam. If they will lie about Islam, then why would I believe them on anything else?

for example,

THE ISLAMIC BELIEF: God is the Only Truth

THE NAQSHBANDI BELIEF: Aba Yazid al-Bistami is the Truth




THE ISLAMIC BELIEF: None shares with the command of God

God says in the Quran:

"Verily, His (God's) command, when He intends a thing, is only that he says to it, "Be! And it is!" - (Chapter 36, Verse 82); and in another place in the Quran, God says:

"They have no protector other than Him (God); nor does He share His command with any person whatsoever." - (18:26)

THE NAQSHBANDI BELIEF: Their sheikh shares with the command of God

On page 33 of their deviant book "Mercy Oceans - Part 1", it reads "The Power of the wali is such that he only needs to say Kun (be) and that will be."



THE ISLAMIC BELIEF: God is above the heavens

God says in the Quran:

"Do you feel secure, that He (God), who is above the heavens, will not cause the earth to sink with you." (Quran, Chapter 67, Verse 16).

And in a long Hadith found in Saheeh Muslim, it is narrated that the companion Mu'awiyah ibn al-Hakam, slapped his servant girl who used to tend his sheep, and as a result when to the Prophet (peace & blessing of God upon him) and asked what should be done as an atonement for having slapped her. The Prophet replied, "Bring her to me" so Mu'awiyah brought her to the Prophet . The Prophet  then asked her, "Where is God?" and she replied "Above the Sky" then the Prophet asked her, "Who am I?" and she replied, "You are God's Messenger", so the Prophet  said, "Free her, for verily she is a true believer."
(Saheeh Muslim, Vol 1, Hadith #1094, English Translation)

THE NAQSHBANDI BELIEF: God is Everywhere

On page 13 of the book Haqiqat ul Haqqani it reads,

"God Almighty is everywhere but specially in the Baitullaah as He has Himself called it the house of God. For it to be called the house of the Lord, the Lord of the house must be in it."

The concept of God being everywhere is not Islamic as the above Quranic verse and the authentic hadith confirm.

5. THE ISLAMIC BELIEF: None has the knowledge of the Last Day except God

God says in the Quran,

"Verily the knowledge of the Hour is with God (alone)." (31:34)

And according to the well known Hadith, where Angel Gabriel appeared as a man, we quote the part of the Hadith that is relevant to our matter, after asking about Islam, Faith and Percfection of Faith, Angel Gabriel asks Prophet Muhammad (sallallaahu `alaihi wa sallam) "then tell me about the (last) Hour (meaning Judgement Day)", the Prophet Muhammad replied, "The one questioned about it knows no better than the questioner."

(Saheeh Muslim, vol 1, Hadith #4, English Translation)

THE NAQSHBANDI BELIEF: Their sheikh has the knowledge of the Last Day.

In the beginning of page 19 of the book ‘Mercy Oceans - part one’, it reads -

"These signs have been given us indication that the Last Day is coming is nearly exactly now …we shall witness that great event within two years."

The above book (Mercy Oceans) was published in 1987 and it is almost 25 years since its publication, but the last day is still not witnessed. How could it be when indeed God has clearly stated in the Quran,

"Say None in the heavens and the earth knows the unseen except God." (Quran, Chapter 27, Verse 65)


Title: Re: difference between wives and sex slaves
Post by falah on Mar 6th, 2012 at 12:47pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Mar 6th, 2012 at 7:28am:

abu_rashid wrote on Mar 6th, 2012 at 5:34am:

freediver wrote on Mar 5th, 2012 at 6:12pm:
I think pressure from Great Britain was largely responsible for finally outlawing slavery in the middle east, around the time of the final collapse of the empire. Obviously it took a lot longer than that to actually get rid of it and it is still common in many areas.


The Ottoman Caliphate abolished slavery in the 19th. century.

In contrast, the last British "realm" to abolish slavery was northern Nigeria, in 1936.

Of course, no Islamic religious texts were amended to include the language of abolitionism nor redact the language of its actual or tacit condoning.

Mauritania, (with nearly a 100% Muslim population), practises slavery today.



Actually, slavery is prohibited in Mauretania.

Title: Re: difference between wives and sex slaves
Post by Baronvonrort on Mar 6th, 2012 at 12:48pm

abu_rashid wrote on Mar 6th, 2012 at 5:34am:

freediver wrote on Mar 5th, 2012 at 6:12pm:
I think pressure from Great Britain was largely responsible for finally outlawing slavery in the middle east, around the time of the final collapse of the empire. Obviously it took a lot longer than that to actually get rid of it and it is still common in many areas.


The Ottoman Caliphate abolished slavery in the 19th. century.

In contrast, the last British "realm" to abolish slavery was northern Nigeria, in 1936.


The Ottoman caliphate was abolished around 1920?.

530 BC - Cyrus the Great abolishes slavery

1948- United Nations - UN Declaration of human rights bans global slavery in article 4.

1952 - Qatar abolishes slavery

1962 - Yemen abolishes slavery

1962- Saudi Arabia abolishes slavery

1963 - UAE abolishes slavery

1970 - Oman abolishes slavery

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abolition_of_slavery_timeline

The Ottoman empire expired long before the Middle East started doing something about slavery.

Did the Saudis take back Arabia from the Ottoman empire before that empire bit the dust?





Title: Re: difference between wives and sex slaves
Post by falah on Mar 6th, 2012 at 12:50pm

Frances wrote on Mar 6th, 2012 at 6:43am:

falah wrote on Mar 5th, 2012 at 8:06pm:
The Taliban are from the South. It is the northern warlords (who are allied with the US and Australian governments) that are the child abusers.


And what religion do the northern warlords follow?


They follow their own whims and desires. Not one of these warlords established Islamic law in any place when they had the chance. They follow the dollar, and they are being bought off by the US.

The Taliban are the only faction in Afghanistan proven to be interested in implementing Islam.

Title: Re: difference between wives and sex slaves
Post by Baronvonrort on Mar 6th, 2012 at 12:54pm

abu_rashid wrote on Mar 6th, 2012 at 5:36am:
Baronvonrort,

You've been educated before that the Taliban wiped this filth out, and almost eradicated these beasts ccompletely. The U.S and her allies are the ones who brought them back to power. Western bases (Canadian) have been reportedly used to commit these acts as well.


Then why does the Sunni forum i linked have muslims saying this problem is not limited to Afghanistan and in fact happens elsewhere in the Islamic world?

How are you going to spin that one Abu- lets see some mental gymnastics.

Yes blame the west for all the problems in the Islamic world do you think non muslims will believe that or will they see through the ingrained victim mentality in Islam?

The Mujahideen have these boys as sex slaves,what religion are the Mujahideen?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mujahideen

Title: Re: difference between wives and sex slaves
Post by falah on Mar 6th, 2012 at 12:59pm

Baronvonrort wrote on Mar 6th, 2012 at 12:48pm:
530 BC - Cyrus the Great abolishes slavery


Would you have us believe that nobody practiced slavery except Muslims between 530 BC and today?

The Ancient Greeks practiced  slavery, the Romans practiced slavery, the Chinese practiced slavery, the Israelites practiced slavery, the British practiced slavery, the US practiced slavery.

Islam prohibited kidnapping slaves and selling them 1400 years ago. Yet kidnapped slaves were still sold in the US 150 years ago


Baronvonrort wrote on Mar 6th, 2012 at 12:48pm:
1948- United Nations - UN Declaration of human rights bans global slavery in article 4.

1952 - Qatar abolishes slavery

1962 - Yemen abolishes slavery

1962- Saudi Arabia abolishes slavery

1963 - UAE abolishes slavery

1970 - Oman abolishes slavery

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abolition_of_slavery_timeline

The Ottoman empire expired long before the Middle East started doing something about slavery.

Did the Saudis take back Arabia from the Ottoman empire before that empire bit the dust?


What you are talking about is merely passing a law. Slavery in the Arabian Gulf was virtually non-existent when the laws were passed because the states were newly established, and had never fought in wars in which slaves could be captured.

Title: Re: difference between wives and sex slaves
Post by Frances on Mar 6th, 2012 at 1:04pm

falah wrote on Mar 6th, 2012 at 12:50pm:

Frances wrote on Mar 6th, 2012 at 6:43am:

falah wrote on Mar 5th, 2012 at 8:06pm:
The Taliban are from the South. It is the northern warlords (who are allied with the US and Australian governments) that are the child abusers.


And what religion do the northern warlords follow?


They follow their own whims and desires. Not one of these warlords established Islamic law in any place when they had the chance. They follow the dollar, and they are being bought off by the US.

The Taliban are the only faction in Afghanistan proven to be interested in implementing Islam.


But are they Muslims?

Title: Re: difference between wives and sex slaves
Post by Baronvonrort on Mar 6th, 2012 at 1:07pm

Frances wrote on Mar 6th, 2012 at 1:04pm:

falah wrote on Mar 6th, 2012 at 12:50pm:

Frances wrote on Mar 6th, 2012 at 6:43am:

falah wrote on Mar 5th, 2012 at 8:06pm:
The Taliban are from the South. It is the northern warlords (who are allied with the US and Australian governments) that are the child abusers.


And what religion do the northern warlords follow?


They follow their own whims and desires. Not one of these warlords established Islamic law in any place when they had the chance. They follow the dollar, and they are being bought off by the US.

The Taliban are the only faction in Afghanistan proven to be interested in implementing Islam.


But are they Muslims?


Yes, all the Mujahideen are muslims.


Title: Re: difference between wives and sex slaves
Post by Yadda on Mar 6th, 2012 at 4:10pm

Baronvonrort wrote on Mar 6th, 2012 at 1:07pm:

Frances wrote on Mar 6th, 2012 at 1:04pm:

falah wrote on Mar 6th, 2012 at 12:50pm:

Frances wrote on Mar 6th, 2012 at 6:43am:

falah wrote on Mar 5th, 2012 at 8:06pm:
The Taliban are from the South. It is the northern warlords (who are allied with the US and Australian governments) that are the child abusers.


And what religion do the northern warlords follow?


They follow their own whims and desires. Not one of these warlords established Islamic law in any place when they had the chance. They follow the dollar, and they are being bought off by the US.

The Taliban are the only faction in Afghanistan proven to be interested in implementing Islam.


But are they Muslims?


Yes, all the Mujahideen are muslims.



Yes, but will they be REAL moslems, tomorrow, if they murder a classroom full of girl students ???
/sarc off



Title: Re: difference between wives and sex slaves
Post by freediver on Mar 6th, 2012 at 6:21pm

Quote:
Not one of these warlords established Islamic law in any place when they had the chance.


Was ending education for girls and making women cover their face also part of Islamic law? Or did the Taliban not impliment Islamic law either, but their own whims, which happened to be even crueller?


Quote:
Islam prohibited kidnapping slaves and selling them 1400 years ago.


To encourage thwe whole rape and pillage thing. Nice. Why go out and kidnap slaves when you can make a war of it and expand the empire?


Quote:
Slavery in the Arabian Gulf was virtually non-existent when the laws were passed because the states were newly established, and had never fought in wars in which slaves could be captured.


So Muslims let their slaves go every time national boundaries change? You have some very odd ways of thinking Falah. Surely the presence or absence of slaves would tell you more about slavery than this absurd logic?

Title: Re: difference between wives and sex slaves
Post by falah on Mar 7th, 2012 at 11:36am

Baronvonrort wrote on Mar 6th, 2012 at 1:07pm:
Yes, all the Mujahideen are muslims.


Rubbish. The term "mujahideen" was co-opted by warlords for political reasons.

The term "mujahideen" is supposed to mean the "people who are fighting on behalf of an Islamic state".

To call those who are fighting against an Islamic state "mujahideen" is an oxymoron.

It is like Tony Abbott calling himself a "liberal", even though he is a dyed-in-the wool ultra-conservative

Title: Re: difference between wives and sex slaves
Post by Frances on Mar 7th, 2012 at 11:46am

falah wrote on Mar 7th, 2012 at 11:36am:
It is like Tony Abbott calling himself a "liberal", even though he is a dyed-in-the wool ultra-conservative


I have never heard Tony Abbott calling himself a "liberal".  I have heard Tony Abbott (and others) calling himself a "Liberal", which is what he is, but that is not the same thing.

Title: Re: difference between wives and sex slaves
Post by freediver on Mar 8th, 2012 at 7:52pm

Quote:
To call those who are fighting against an Islamic state "mujahideen" is an oxymoron.


Abu does not believe it was an Islamic state. They did a lot of things that are pretty aweful even by Islamic standards. Like making women cover their faces and banning girls schools. And no I do not accept as your plausible your explanation that they did these things to liberate the women from the previous leaders.


Title: Re: difference between wives and sex slaves
Post by freediver on Jul 19th, 2013 at 6:01pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 19th, 2013 at 2:49pm:

freediver wrote on Jul 19th, 2013 at 2:30pm:
So what do you think concubine means Gandalf?


Umm... a woman who lives with a man, but who is not married to him?


:o

And another one - apparently chopping a man's head off, stealing all his possessions and taking his wife home with you as a concubine implies no kind of coercion...


polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 19th, 2013 at 3:57pm:

freediver wrote on Jul 19th, 2013 at 2:28pm:
What do you think concubine means Gandalf?


the freedictionary describes it pretty well I think. Nowhere does it mention rape. Concubines have been common throughout history, across cultures. Another term for them is "mistress". No one, except you, understands the term as anything to do with rape.

What is wrong with you?


Title: Re: difference between wives and sex slaves
Post by freediver on Jul 20th, 2013 at 8:37am
Gandalf and TC, you two are not really that naive are you?


polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 19th, 2013 at 5:42pm:

True Colours wrote on Jul 19th, 2013 at 4:42pm:
voluntarily


No no no TC - don't you get it by now? Nothing is ever voluntary in islam, never ever on stilts.



True Colours wrote on Jul 19th, 2013 at 6:58pm:
Freediver thinks marriage is sex slavery.  :D


Can either of you two point out a substantive difference between marriage and sex slavery in the Islamic tradition?


True Colours wrote on Jul 20th, 2013 at 12:03am:

Yadda wrote on Jul 19th, 2013 at 7:39pm:
There is no record in the Koran, where Allah states that captive women must give their consent to sex with their captors.


"...do not compel your slave girls to sexual service, seeking the temporary pleasures of the world, if they desire chastity"
- The Quran, al-Noor, v. 33


Hmmm...any verse outlawing rape of slaves in the Bible?




freediver wrote on Jul 20th, 2013 at 8:20am:
Any idea what this is about TC?


abu_rashid wrote on Mar 4th, 2012 at 10:20am:
Annie,

In the Islamic texts, women who are captives are considered to be part of the household, and the man has the same responsibilities to them as he has to his wives, and he therefore also has the same rights with her, which includes the permissibility of sexual relations. She is basically like his wife, she is not merely a piece of property like in the Western concept of slavery, where people were treated like beasts of burden.


Can you give an example of someone who was punished by Muhammed, or even admonished, for raping his female slave? While your at it, do you have any examples of spousal rape being punished?

In your quote, why did it finish with "if they desire chastity", rather than say, "if they don't want to have sex with you"?



Soren wrote on Jul 20th, 2013 at 8:26am:

True Colours wrote on Jul 20th, 2013 at 12:03am:

Yadda wrote on Jul 19th, 2013 at 7:39pm:
There is no record in the Koran, where Allah states that captive women must give their consent to sex with their captors.


"...do not compel your slave girls to sexual service, seeking the temporary pleasures of the world, if they desire chastity"
- The Quran, al-Noor, v. 33


Hmmm...any verse outlawing rape of slaves in the Bible?


Er...


" But if anyone compels them (to prostitution), then after such compulsion, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful (to those women, i.e. He will forgive them because they have been forced to do this evil action unwillingly)."

The rest of The Quran, al-Noor, v. 33 which you completely accidentally forgot to include.  Allah will forgive the women because they were forced. Not the Mohamedans who forced them, but the women who were forced.
Merciful-like, innit.


Title: Re: difference between wives and sex slaves
Post by freediver on Jul 20th, 2013 at 2:02pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 20th, 2013 at 1:38pm:

freediver wrote on Jul 20th, 2013 at 1:05pm:
Would you mind clarifying the issue of raping these women, beyond naively assuming that concubinage means nothing more than cohabitation?


Would you mind clarifying the issue of raping these women, beyond the bigotry of assuming that concubinage always, no questions absolutely, means rape (at least in the case of muslims)?

There are numerous orders in islamic texts (both quran and hadeeth) forbidding forced sex on slave girls, as well as rulings by  islamic scholars.


Do any of those orders, rulings etc involve any example of Muhammed punishing someone for raping their wife or concubine, or even beating them? Why do some Muslims believe that concubinage involves the same rights and responsibilities as marriage - eg it is the man's right to have sex and the woman's duty to service the man whenever he asks?

In the command that TC posted, can you explain the need for the qualifier?

Title: Re: difference between wives and sex slaves
Post by gandalf on Jul 20th, 2013 at 2:13pm

freediver wrote on Jul 20th, 2013 at 2:02pm:
Do any of those orders, rulings etc involve any example of Muhammed punishing someone for raping their wife or concubine, or even beating them?


Probably. Discouraging the mistreatment of women was something of a theme for the prophet.

Its got nothing to do with substantiating the claim that concubinage in islam must necessarily, absolutely, no question mean slave rape though.

Title: Re: difference between wives and sex slaves
Post by freediver on Jul 20th, 2013 at 2:13pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 20th, 2013 at 1:59pm:

freediver wrote on Jul 20th, 2013 at 12:23pm:
Can you give an example of someone who was punished by Muhammed, or even admonished, for raping his female slave? While you're at it, do you have any examples of spousal rape being punished? Or even wife beating?


ummm ok FD, so coming up with examples of people being punished for raping slaves, isn't exactly proving or disproving that the command "do not compel your slave girls to sexual service, seeking the temporary pleasures of the world, if they desire chastity" exists does it?

You also assume that slave rape was actually going on. Maybe all the muslims then were obeying islam's commands in relation to slave rape.

Perhaps in the spirit of putting the burden of proof back on you (it is after all, your own bullshit claim), it might be prudent for you to come up with a single example of muslims raping their slaves and getting off scott free.


I can give you an example of a Muslim beating his wife until her skin was green with bruises. He got off scott free. It seems rape wasn't even considered worth mentioning. We did discuss a case recently of women captured in battle, where the best looking one was given to the soldier to prevented their escape as a reward, but then Muhammed took her off him for the purpose of trading her. The soldier made references to "not yet disrobing her", which to me sounds like a euphemism for rape.

I think it would be nothing short of naive to assume that after chopping their husbands heads off and taking the women home as slaves as well as all the possessions, that they would not force themselves upon them, given that it is specifically permitted and there is no punishment for rape in this context. It seems like a system designed to ensure that rape does happen, but at the same time allow leaders to wash their hands of it.

Title: Re: difference between wives and sex slaves
Post by freediver on Jul 20th, 2013 at 2:15pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 20th, 2013 at 2:13pm:
Discouraging the mistreatment of women was something of a theme for the prophet.


Can you explain the example of the woman being beaten until her skin was green, and Muhammed not taking any action?

Title: Re: difference between wives and sex slaves
Post by shockresist on Jul 20th, 2013 at 2:22pm

freediver wrote on Jul 20th, 2013 at 2:15pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 20th, 2013 at 2:13pm:
Discouraging the mistreatment of women was something of a theme for the prophet.


Can you explain the example of the woman being beaten until her skin was green, and Muhammed not taking any action?


Where did you read this story? Any links?

Title: Re: difference between wives and sex slaves
Post by Baronvonrort on Jul 20th, 2013 at 2:27pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 20th, 2013 at 2:13pm:

freediver wrote on Jul 20th, 2013 at 2:02pm:
Do any of those orders, rulings etc involve any example of Muhammed punishing someone for raping their wife or concubine, or even beating them?


Probably. Discouraging the mistreatment of women was something of a theme for the prophet.



Is this how he discouraged them?


Quote:
The prophet said-

A man will not be asked as to why he beat his wife
www.sunnah.com/abudawud/12/102


The Quran even says beating you wife is ok if you fear disobedience.
www.quran.com/4/34


Title: Re: difference between wives and sex slaves
Post by shockresist on Jul 20th, 2013 at 2:39pm
Any reasons why Australians beat there partners baronvomit?

•Women

1 in 5 women in Australia are abused in an intimate relationship at some point in their adult life. In addition, 1 in 5 women also experience some kind of sexual violence/assault (ABS, 2006).

•Children and Young People

1 in 4 children witness domestic and family violence in the home and 1 in 3 young people who have a boyfriend or girlfriend experience violence and abuse in that relationship (Indermaur, 2001).



In Australia, Canada, Israel, South Africa and the United
States, 40 to 70 per cent of female murder victims were
killed by their partners, according to the WHO.

Title: Re: difference between wives and sex slaves
Post by freediver on Jul 20th, 2013 at 2:50pm

shockresist wrote on Jul 20th, 2013 at 2:22pm:

freediver wrote on Jul 20th, 2013 at 2:15pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 20th, 2013 at 2:13pm:
Discouraging the mistreatment of women was something of a theme for the prophet.


Can you explain the example of the woman being beaten until her skin was green, and Muhammed not taking any action?


Where did you read this story? Any links?


http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1287305391/177#177

Title: Re: difference between wives and sex slaves
Post by Soren on Jul 20th, 2013 at 3:55pm

shockresist wrote on Jul 20th, 2013 at 2:39pm:
Any reasons why Australians beat there partners baronvomit?

•Women

1 in 5 women in Australia are abused in an intimate relationship at some point in their adult life. In addition, 1 in 5 women also experience some kind of sexual violence/assault (ABS, 2006).

•Children and Young People

1 in 4 children witness domestic and family violence in the home and 1 in 3 young people who have a boyfriend or girlfriend experience violence and abuse in that relationship (Indermaur, 2001).



In Australia, Canada, Israel, South Africa and the United
States, 40 to 70 per cent of female murder victims were
killed by their partners, according to the WHO.


Dreadful, terrible stats.
And to think that they are lucky not to live in Muslim countries where it is much worse.

Afghanistan
Nearly 90 percent of Afghan women suffer from domestic abuse, according to the United Nations Development Fund for Women. Despite that, there are less than a dozen shelters like this one in Afghanistan, usually run by non-governmental organizations. Abusers are rarely prosecuted or convicted, and most women are afraid to say anything. "Their mothers are beaten by their fathers. They're beaten by their fathers, by their brothers. It's a way of life," said Manizha Naderi, director of WAW.[1]
Iran
Statistics in Iran show that 66% of Iranian women, at the beginning of the marriage have been at least physically abused once. Some forms of physical abuse that occur include: biting, bondage, imprisonment in their own home, scratching, hair pulling, and even starving.[2]

Iraq
A recent report by the UN Assistance Mission for Iraq (UNAMI) registered 139 cases of violence against women in the northern region of Kurdistan in the second half of 2008 alone. It said 163 women were killed as a result of domestic violence in Kurdistan in 2009. Experts suggest the number is less than 5 percent of the real estimates.[3]

Jordan
91% of university students polled by the Jordanian Human Right Center approve of wife beating. An earlier study by another organization found out that a majority of WOMEN also supports the right of a husband to beat the wife[4]
According to the [National Family Council] report:
83% of Jordanian women approve of wife beating if the woman cheats on her husband
60% approve of wife beating in cases where the wife burns a meal she's cooking
52% approve of wife beating in case where she's refused to follow the husband’s orders[5]

Pakistan
A study published in June 2006 in the Journal of the Pakistan Medical Association, based on interviews with 300 women admitted to hospital for childbirth, said 80 percent reported being subjected to some kind of abuse within marriage. At times, the violence inflicted on women takes on truly horrendous forms. The Islamabad-based Progressive Women's Association (PWA), headed by Shahnaz Bukhari, believes up to 4,000 women are burnt each year, almost always by husbands or in-laws, often as “punishment” for minor “offences” or for failure to bring in a sufficient dowry. The PWA said it had collected details of nearly 8,000 such victims from March 1994 to March 2007, from three hospitals in the Rawalpindi-Islamabad area alone.[6]
The number of incidents of violence against women increased by 13 per cent in 2009, says a report by the Aurat Foundation set to be released on Wednesday. The report states that 8,548 incidents of violence against women were reported in 2009 compared to 7,571 incidents reported in 2008. Of these, 5,722 were reported to have occurred in Punjab, followed by 1,762 in Sindh, 655 in Khyber-Pakhtunkhwa and 237 in Balochistan. Similarly, 172 cases of violence against women were reported in Islamabad, the report said.[7]

Palestinian Authority area
Launched in January 1999, the [Women's Empowerment] project first established a research team, trained by Dr Abdo, which in turn began training community leaders on gender-based research methods. They have used these skills to interview a representative sample of 120 women from refugee camps, villages, and cities in the Gaza Strip to determine the incidence of gender-based violence. The preliminary results are alarming: half of the women interviewed to date have been victims of violence. "Violence against women in Gaza basically means domestic violence," says research consultant Aitemad Muhanna. "Women are beaten by their husbands, beaten by their fathers, and even beaten by their brothers." Women are beaten for not fulfilling traditional roles — such as cooking, cleaning, or tending to their appearance — to a husband's satisfaction. Other abuses include harsh insults, sexual abuse among family, and marital rape.[8]

Qatar
One in three wives in Qatar suffer physical or psychological violence from the side of their husband[9]

Turkey
London-based Refugee Workers Association Woman’s Group (GIK-DER) revealed disturbing news last week [in November, 2006] that up to 80% Turkish and Kurdish women are victims of domestic violence and sexual harassment. At the same time 70% of Turkish and Kurdish husbands cheat on their wives.[10]

Title: Re: difference between wives and sex slaves
Post by freediver on Jul 20th, 2013 at 3:59pm

Quote:
91% of university students polled by the Jordanian Human Right Center approve of wife beating.


That must be the university that made it into the top 1000.


Quote:
A study published in June 2006 in the Journal of the Pakistan Medical Association, based on interviews with 300 women admitted to hospital for childbirth, said 80 percent reported being subjected to some kind of abuse within marriage.


Where is Karnal when you need him?

Title: Re: difference between wives and sex slaves
Post by freediver on Jul 20th, 2013 at 6:29pm
Are these true?


Baronvonrort wrote on Jul 20th, 2013 at 5:33pm:

True Colours wrote on Jul 20th, 2013 at 5:13pm:
Do you not tire of the lie?

.do not compel your slave girls to sexual servitude, seeking the temporary pleasures of the world, if they desire chastity
- The Quran, al-Noor, v. 33



Quote:
The Prophet instructed that if a beating was carried out, it should be done with a toothbrush - so that no injury should occur. What is allowed is only for a husband to show that he is severely displeased, not to cause any physical injury. Hitting on the head was also prohibited.



That quran verse means you cannot make your slave work as a prostitute which is different to forcing her to have sex with her muslim owner.

The shia allow prostitutes in a temporary marriage, its called a mutah marriage which differs in name from the sunni version called misyar marriage.

Do you have a cite for Mohammad saying hit your wife with a miswak?
Does sunnah.com or quran.com have this verse or is it one plucked from the asses of muslims?




Baronvonrort wrote on Jul 20th, 2013 at 6:08pm:
I will let the good sheik at Islam qa explain why Islam allows a man to rape his wife or slave, he quotes from the quran,hadith and scholars.

Quote:
Is it permissable for a man to force his wife or slave to have intercourse?

The woman does not have the right to refuse her husband,rather she must respond to his request every time he calls her.
A slave woman does not have the right to refuse her masters request.
www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/33597


[quote]
Praise be to allah
Islam allows a man to have intercourse with his slave woman, whether he has a wife or wives or is not married.
The wife has no right to object to her husband owning female slaves or to his having intercourse with them.
www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/10382


You are a munafiq, do you think a rational person will believe your lies?[/quote]

Title: Re: difference between wives and sex slaves
Post by freediver on Jul 20th, 2013 at 7:18pm

True Colours wrote on Jul 20th, 2013 at 7:01pm:
A phrase that captures more of the meanings is "illicit sexual activity" which due to the context I have rendered "sexual servitude" - and any translator will tell you that context is all important.


But Islam specifically permits sex with sex slaves. Why would you translate it as illicit in that context?


True Colours wrote on Jul 20th, 2013 at 7:01pm:
Because prostitution  is already illegal in Islam, why would it need to be mentioned in this verse?


Because Islam is full of contradictions. And because otherwise Muslims would find a way of interpretting it as being legal.


True Colours wrote on Jul 20th, 2013 at 7:01pm:
Because 'prostitution' only captures a small part of the meaning of the Arabic word "bagaa'" .


So perhaps it should be translated as illicit sexual conduct - to cover forcing her into any sort of illicit sexual activity - ie everything except sex with her owner.


True Colours wrote on Jul 20th, 2013 at 7:01pm:
Because the first part of the verse is addressing men and how they should conduct themselves in marriage, and the logical conclusion is that it is continuing to talk about how a man should conduct himself with his own sexuality - not going off on a tangent about whether slavegirls can perform prostitution.


Circular reasoning. You are expecting it to say that it forbids rape, therefor that is what it must say. If a man can rape his wife, why not his sex slaves?


True Colours wrote on Jul 20th, 2013 at 7:01pm:
Lastly and most importantly, the verse makes it conditional upon the slavegirls desires (does she want sex or desire chastity). Prostitution is completely banned in Islam. So why make it conditional upon the slavegirl's desire - wouldn't make sense.


Funny how I have asked you so many times already why Muhammed would have qualified the statement, but you only answer when it suits your argument. The qualification hardly makes sense in the context of rape either - why would muhammed say don't rape women who desire chastity?

Chastity is actually often used to denote legal sexual activity and is not limited to abstinence. That points to "illicit sexual activity" as the more appropriate translation - as other muslim scholars have obviously concluded.

Title: Re: difference between wives and sex slaves
Post by freediver on Jul 20th, 2013 at 7:55pm

True Colours wrote on Jul 20th, 2013 at 7:44pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on Jul 20th, 2013 at 6:08pm:

Quote:
A slave woman does not have the right to refuse her masters request.
www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/33597


Cute how you cut the sentence off midway.

What does the full sentence say?

[quote]Similarly a slave woman does not have the right to refuse her master’s requests unless she has a valid excuse.


What is a valid excuse? The Quran gives us one:


Quote:
"...do not force you maids into sexual servitude...if they seek chastity"


In other words "if she is not interested in a sexual relationship then leave her alone".
[/quote]

So a woman does not have the right to make her own choice in the matter, unless of course she chooses to.

Makes perfect sense, to a Muslim.

BTW, I am genuinely interested in those "valid excuses", as I think they apply to wives also. I think Abu hinted that they are medical in nature, presumably including having her period. But I never could get the details out of him.

Title: Re: difference between wives and sex slaves
Post by shockresist on Jul 20th, 2013 at 8:30pm

Soren wrote on Jul 20th, 2013 at 3:55pm:

shockresist wrote on Jul 20th, 2013 at 2:39pm:
Any reasons why Australians beat there partners baronvomit?

•Women

1 in 5 women in Australia are abused in an intimate relationship at some point in their adult life. In addition, 1 in 5 women also experience some kind of sexual violence/assault (ABS, 2006).

•Children and Young People

1 in 4 children witness domestic and family violence in the home and 1 in 3 young people who have a boyfriend or girlfriend experience violence and abuse in that relationship (Indermaur, 2001).



In Australia, Canada, Israel, South Africa and the United
States, 40 to 70 per cent of female murder victims were
killed by their partners, according to the WHO.


Dreadful, terrible stats.
And to think that they are lucky not to live in Muslim countries where it is much worse.

Afghanistan
Nearly 90 percent of Afghan women suffer from domestic abuse, according to the United Nations Development Fund for Women. Despite that, there are less than a dozen shelters like this one in Afghanistan, usually run by non-governmental organizations. Abusers are rarely prosecuted or convicted, and most women are afraid to say anything. "Their mothers are beaten by their fathers. They're beaten by their fathers, by their brothers. It's a way of life," said Manizha Naderi, director of WAW.[1]
Iran
Statistics in Iran show that 66% of Iranian women, at the beginning of the marriage have been at least physically abused once. Some forms of physical abuse that occur include: biting, bondage, imprisonment in their own home, scratching, hair pulling, and even starving.[2]

Iraq
A recent report by the UN Assistance Mission for Iraq (UNAMI) registered 139 cases of violence against women in the northern region of Kurdistan in the second half of 2008 alone. It said 163 women were killed as a result of domestic violence in Kurdistan in 2009. Experts suggest the number is less than 5 percent of the real estimates.[3]

Jordan
91% of university students polled by the Jordanian Human Right Center approve of wife beating. An earlier study by another organization found out that a majority of WOMEN also supports the right of a husband to beat the wife[4]
According to the [National Family Council] report:
83% of Jordanian women approve of wife beating if the woman cheats on her husband
60% approve of wife beating in cases where the wife burns a meal she's cooking
52% approve of wife beating in case where she's refused to follow the husband’s orders[5]

Pakistan
A study published in June 2006 in the Journal of the Pakistan Medical Association, based on interviews with 300 women admitted to hospital for childbirth, said 80 percent reported being subjected to some kind of abuse within marriage. At times, the violence inflicted on women takes on truly horrendous forms. The Islamabad-based Progressive Women's Association (PWA), headed by Shahnaz Bukhari, believes up to 4,000 women are burnt each year, almost always by husbands or in-laws, often as “punishment” for minor “offences” or for failure to bring in a sufficient dowry. The PWA said it had collected details of nearly 8,000 such victims from March 1994 to March 2007, from three hospitals in the Rawalpindi-Islamabad area alone.[6]
The number of incidents of violence against women increased by 13 per cent in 2009, says a report by the Aurat Foundation set to be released on Wednesday. The report states that 8,548 incidents of violence against women were reported in 2009 compared to 7,571 incidents reported in 2008. Of these, 5,722 were reported to have occurred in Punjab, followed by 1,762 in Sindh, 655 in Khyber-Pakhtunkhwa and 237 in Balochistan. Similarly, 172 cases of violence against women were reported in Islamabad, the report said.[7]

Palestinian Authority area
Launched in January 1999, the [Women's Empowerment] project first established a research team, trained by Dr Abdo, which in turn began training community leaders on gender-based research methods. They have used these skills to interview a representative sample of 120 women from refugee camps, villages, and cities in the Gaza Strip to determine the incidence of gender-based violence. The preliminary results are alarming: half of the women interviewed to date have been victims of violence. "Violence against women in Gaza basically means domestic violence," says research consultant Aitemad Muhanna. "Women are beaten by their husbands, beaten by their fathers, and even beaten by their brothers." Women are beaten for not fulfilling traditional roles — such as cooking, cleaning, or tending to their appearance — to a husband's satisfaction. Other abuses include harsh insults, sexual abuse among family, and marital rape.[8]

Qatar
One in three wives in Qatar suffer physical or psychological violence from the side of their husband[9]

Turkey
London-based Refugee Workers Association Woman’s Group (GIK-DER) revealed disturbing news last week [in November, 2006] that up to 80% Turkish and Kurdish women are victims of domestic violence and sexual harassment. At the same time 70% of Turkish and Kurdish husbands cheat on their wives.[10]


It just go to show wheather your in the west or the east, women are going to get abused regardless of religion.

Title: Re: difference between wives and sex slaves
Post by shockresist on Jul 20th, 2013 at 8:31pm

freediver wrote on Jul 20th, 2013 at 7:55pm:

True Colours wrote on Jul 20th, 2013 at 7:44pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on Jul 20th, 2013 at 6:08pm:

Quote:
A slave woman does not have the right to refuse her masters request.
]


Cute how you cut the sentence off midway.

What does the full sentence say?

[quote]Similarly a slave woman does not have the right to refuse her master’s requests unless she has a valid excuse.


What is a valid excuse? The Quran gives us one:

[quote]"...do not force you maids into sexual servitude...if they seek chastity"


In other words "if she is not interested in a sexual relationship then leave her alone".
[/quote]

So a woman does not have the right to make her own choice in the matter, unless of course she chooses to.

Makes perfect sense, to a Muslim.

BTW, I am genuinely interested in those "valid excuses", as I think they apply to wives also. I think Abu hinted that they are medical in nature, presumably including having her period. But I never could get the details out of him.[/quote]

Do sex slaves even exist these days?

Or slaves?

Not to my knowledge.

Title: Re: difference between wives and sex slaves
Post by freediver on Jul 20th, 2013 at 10:12pm

Quote:
It just go to show wheather your in the west or the east, women are going to get abused regardless of religion.


So Islam is just trying to keep up by permitting it?


shockresist wrote on Jul 20th, 2013 at 8:31pm:
Do sex slaves even exist these days?

Or slaves?

Not to my knowledge.


They do in the middle east. Was that supposed to be an answer, or a deflection?

Title: Re: difference between wives and sex slaves
Post by Soren on Jul 20th, 2013 at 10:49pm

shockresist wrote on Jul 20th, 2013 at 8:30pm:
It just go to show wheather your in the west or the east, women are going to get abused regardless of religion.



Bullsh!t. Only under Islamic law will a woman be sentenced to jail for being raped:


A Norwegian woman has spoken out about the 16-month prison sentence she received in Dubai after reporting a rape incident to police.



Lucky she was in Dubai. In Pakiland or Iran or Talibanistan she'd be dead.

Title: Re: difference between wives and sex slaves
Post by bobbythebat1 on Jul 20th, 2013 at 10:56pm

Soren wrote on Jul 20th, 2013 at 10:49pm:

shockresist wrote on Jul 20th, 2013 at 8:30pm:
It just go to show wheather your in the west or the east, women are going to get abused regardless of religion.



Bullsh!t. Only under Islamic law will a woman be sentenced to jail for being raped:


A Norwegian woman has spoken out about the 16-month prison sentence she received in Dubai after reporting a rape incident to police.



Lucky she was in Dubai. In Pakiland or Iran or Talibanistan she'd be dead.




Mussie justice doesn't make sense:


Quote:
Her alleged attacker, she said, received a 13-month sentence for extra-marital sex and alcohol consumption.

Title: Re: difference between wives and sex slaves
Post by True Colours on Jul 21st, 2013 at 7:02am

freediver wrote on Jul 20th, 2013 at 10:12pm:

shockresist wrote on Jul 20th, 2013 at 8:31pm:
Do sex slaves even exist these days?

Or slaves?

Not to my knowledge.


They do in the middle east.


Sex slavery is big problem in Australia. Thousands of them being forced to work in brothels. Authorities don't care much because they are Asian not blondies.

Title: Re: difference between wives and sex slaves
Post by True Colours on Jul 21st, 2013 at 7:13am

Bobby. wrote on Jul 20th, 2013 at 10:56pm:
Mussie justice doesn't make sense:


Quote:
Her alleged attacker, she said, received a 13-month sentence for extra-marital sex and alcohol consumption.


If Dubai had sharia law she wouldn't have been able to be charged with that.

This has nothing to do with sharia law, but rather it is locals not liking what Westerners are doing and making up laws to punish them with.

Islamic (sharia) law requires 4 witnesses to say that they saw her voluntarily have sex for conviction. Islamic (sharia) law does not punish non-Muslims from drinking alcohol.

If only Dubai had Islamic law, she wouldn't be in jail, and her attackers would be severely punished - or even better she wouldn't be attacked in the first place because the punishments for rape in Islamic law are severe and can include capital and corporal punishment which are big deterrents.

Title: Re: difference between wives and sex slaves
Post by freediver on Jul 21st, 2013 at 8:31am

True Colours wrote on Jul 21st, 2013 at 7:02am:

freediver wrote on Jul 20th, 2013 at 10:12pm:

shockresist wrote on Jul 20th, 2013 at 8:31pm:
Do sex slaves even exist these days?

Or slaves?

Not to my knowledge.


They do in the middle east.


Sex slavery is big problem in Australia. Thousands of them being forced to work in brothels. Authorities don't care much because they are Asian not blondies.


If only we had Shariah law. Then sex slavery would be legal and the 'blondies' could end up as slaves as well...

Title: Re: difference between wives and sex slaves
Post by True Colours on Jul 21st, 2013 at 8:47am

freediver wrote on Jul 21st, 2013 at 8:31am:
If only we had Shariah law. Then sex slavery would be legal and the 'blondies' could end up as slaves as well...


That is a lie. 


"...do not compel your slave girls to sexual service, seeking the temporary pleasures of the world, if they desire chastity"
- The Quran, al-Noor, v. 33

Islam does not even permit the procurement of slaves from people who are not war with Muslims.

Title: Re: difference between wives and sex slaves
Post by freediver on Jul 21st, 2013 at 8:54am

Quote:
"...do not compel your slave girls to sexual service, seeking the temporary pleasures of the world, if they desire chastity"


What's the matter TC? Did it get too complicated for you so you went back to the start of the conversation?


Quote:
Islam does not even permit the procurement of slaves from people who are not war with Muslims.


So no 'blondies' are at war with Muslims?

Would you mind explaining for me where the 'lie' is?

Title: Re: difference between wives and sex slaves
Post by True Colours on Jul 21st, 2013 at 9:00am

freediver wrote on Jul 21st, 2013 at 8:54am:
What's the matter TC? Did it get too complicated for you so you went back to the start of the conversation?


What is the matter does the truth frustrate you.



freediver wrote on Jul 21st, 2013 at 8:54am:

Quote:
Islam does not even permit the procurement of slaves from people who are not war with Muslims.


So no 'blondies' are at war with Muslims?


In Dubai?



freediver wrote on Jul 21st, 2013 at 8:54am:
Would you mind explaining for me where the 'lie' is?



freediver wrote on Jul 21st, 2013 at 8:54am:
If only we had Shariah law. Then sex slavery would be legal [quote]



"...do not compel your slave girls to sexual service, seeking the temporary pleasures of the world, if they desire chastity"
- The Quran, al-Noor, v. 33

Title: Re: difference between wives and sex slaves
Post by freediver on Jul 21st, 2013 at 9:11am
TC, could you please explain the violation of shariah law under this scenario, and the appropriate Islamic punishment?

Muslim soldiers capture a blond female soldier in Iraq or Afghanistan. The soldier who captured her is rewarded for his bravery by being given the female. He takes her home with him to Dubai and rapes her, over and over again, every day for the rest of her life.

Can you explain why so many other Muslims have a different interpretation of that paragraph?

Title: Re: difference between wives and sex slaves
Post by freediver on Jul 21st, 2013 at 9:15am
Here you go TC, this is where the discussion actually got up to, before you went back to doing your parrot impersonation and poor attempts at moral equivalence with illegal sex slavery in Australia...


freediver wrote on Jul 20th, 2013 at 7:18pm:

True Colours wrote on Jul 20th, 2013 at 7:01pm:
A phrase that captures more of the meanings is "illicit sexual activity" which due to the context I have rendered "sexual servitude" - and any translator will tell you that context is all important.


But Islam specifically permits sex with sex slaves. Why would you translate it as illicit in that context?


True Colours wrote on Jul 20th, 2013 at 7:01pm:
Because prostitution  is already illegal in Islam, why would it need to be mentioned in this verse?


Because Islam is full of contradictions. And because otherwise Muslims would find a way of interpretting it as being legal.


True Colours wrote on Jul 20th, 2013 at 7:01pm:
Because 'prostitution' only captures a small part of the meaning of the Arabic word "bagaa'" .


So perhaps it should be translated as illicit sexual conduct - to cover forcing her into any sort of illicit sexual activity - ie everything except sex with her owner.


True Colours wrote on Jul 20th, 2013 at 7:01pm:
Because the first part of the verse is addressing men and how they should conduct themselves in marriage, and the logical conclusion is that it is continuing to talk about how a man should conduct himself with his own sexuality - not going off on a tangent about whether slavegirls can perform prostitution.


Circular reasoning. You are expecting it to say that it forbids rape, therefor that is what it must say. If a man can rape his wife, why not his sex slaves?


True Colours wrote on Jul 20th, 2013 at 7:01pm:
Lastly and most importantly, the verse makes it conditional upon the slavegirls desires (does she want sex or desire chastity). Prostitution is completely banned in Islam. So why make it conditional upon the slavegirl's desire - wouldn't make sense.


Funny how I have asked you so many times already why Muhammed would have qualified the statement, but you only answer when it suits your argument. The qualification hardly makes sense in the context of rape either - why would muhammed say don't rape women who desire chastity?

Chastity is actually often used to denote legal sexual activity and is not limited to abstinence. That points to "illicit sexual activity" as the more appropriate translation - as other muslim scholars have obviously concluded.



freediver wrote on Jul 20th, 2013 at 7:55pm:

True Colours wrote on Jul 20th, 2013 at 7:44pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on Jul 20th, 2013 at 6:08pm:

Quote:
A slave woman does not have the right to refuse her masters request.
www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/33597


Cute how you cut the sentence off midway.

What does the full sentence say?

[quote]Similarly a slave woman does not have the right to refuse her master’s requests unless she has a valid excuse.


What is a valid excuse? The Quran gives us one:

[quote]"...do not force you maids into sexual servitude...if they seek chastity"


In other words "if she is not interested in a sexual relationship then leave her alone".
[/quote]

So a woman does not have the right to make her own choice in the matter, unless of course she chooses to.

Makes perfect sense, to a Muslim.

BTW, I am genuinely interested in those "valid excuses", as I think they apply to wives also. I think Abu hinted that they are medical in nature, presumably including having her period. But I never could get the details out of him.[/quote]

Title: Re: difference between wives and sex slaves
Post by Soren on Jul 21st, 2013 at 8:10pm
North African pirates abducted and enslaved more than 1 million Europeans between 1530 and 1780 in a series of raids which depopulated coastal towns from Sicily to Cornwall, according to new research.
Thousands of white Christians were seized every year to work as galley slaves, labourers and concubines for Muslim overlords in what is today Morocco, Tunisia, Algeria and Libya, it is claimed.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2004/mar/11/highereducation.books


'ello, 'ello, 'ello, whassis then?


Concubines? Abducted? Arab slavers?

Must be Joooo propaganda, surely.



Title: Re: difference between wives and sex slaves
Post by ozzyoi on Aug 2nd, 2013 at 4:40pm
That's your excuse for your "religeon", to have sex with a slave.
Write it and kill over it, as long as you get your end, dorsed, grow a beard and shout BS, and brainwash some kid to wear a bomb suit to state your claim, to you it is justified because, it says some in some outdated or misinterpreted "theological" manuscript.

The "god" you are looking is inside you, but the barrier between you and that "god" is the bullshit thinking between your ears!
What really is the truth, is you are the defect!
I'm no better, but I realize the truth and how to get to the truth starts by having good read about the Sermon on the Mount.
I am sure this is not about christianity, but for the human race as a whole....
But with you egotistical lot, it's money, power and sex, and usually blood money, criminal power, and misguided sex instincts...you are worse than animals!

Title: Re: difference between wives and sex slaves
Post by True Colours on Aug 3rd, 2013 at 7:58am

ozzyoi wrote on Aug 2nd, 2013 at 4:40pm:
That's your excuse for your "religeon", to have sex with a slave.


Which religion are you talking about Judaism, Christianity? The Bible teaches that prophets like Abraham and Solomon had concubines.

Are you talking of the Bible which tells people to take sex slaves?

As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace.  If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor.  But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town.  When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town.  But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder.  You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.
- Deuteronomy 20:10-14


When you go out to war against your enemies and the LORD, your God, delivers them into your hand, so that you take captives, if you see a comely woman among the captives and become so enamored of her that you wish to have her as wife, you may take her home to your house.  But before she may live there, she must shave her head and pare her nails and lay aside her captive's garb.  After she has mourned her father and mother for a full month, you may have relations with her...
- Deuteronomy 21:10-14



If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father.  Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.
- Deuteronomy 22:28-29


They must be dividing the spoils they took: there must be a damsel or two for each man
- Judges 5:30




Title: Re: difference between wives and sex slaves
Post by freediver on Aug 3rd, 2013 at 9:47am
So Muhammed's contribution was to reintroduce the worst of the old testament?

Title: Re: difference between wives and sex slaves
Post by ozzyoi on Aug 5th, 2013 at 9:25pm
I don't buy any religion, it has served no real purpose no matter what side you are on.
But I do take parts of The Sermon on the Mount for living and some hope.
But just because it's in the Bible, it seems to be pigeon holed as "religion". No it's not....It's just basic and common sense stuff. Problem for most, it means work or action on the side of good.
You all know now too well that the bickering, wars, killings, and everything else over who God is and who one wants to make another believe or die...is no longer working.

So what does work?
At this point in time;
More suffering and pain that many bring upon themselves and to others ( politicians, zeonists and corporations) is the only thing that will work till all on this planet will one day look around at their own cause destruction..., then they will say, "oh ohh, were buggered, we cannot breathe and there is no oxygen to buy because all the workers are dead, we killed them".
Then realize the way we think is wrong, ( economically, politically, technically and money-tarily, the way we play the game of life today and tomorrow is wrong no matter where you are or who you are.
So the last rich and poor will then realize all have one thing in common, we will die and will take nothing from this life to the next.




Title: Re: difference between wives and sex slaves
Post by True Colours on Aug 6th, 2013 at 1:55am

freediver wrote on Aug 3rd, 2013 at 9:47am:
So Muhammed's contribution was to reintroduce the worst of the old testament?


Prophet Muhammed came into a world full of slavery. Islam closed many of the doors of slavery that existed at the time, and put strict conditions on slaveowners.

Unlike Judaism and Christianity, Islam does not promote slavery. Judaism and Christianity encourage the willy-nilly taking of slaves:



Quote:
Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. You can will them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life

- Leviticus 25:44-46




Quote:
"And in case a man should sell his daughter as a slave girl, she will not go out in the way that the slave men go out. If she is displeasing in the eyes of her master so that he doesn't designate her as a concubine but causes her to be redeemed, he will not be entitled to sell her to a foreign people

- Exodus 21:7-8


Islam, however, encourages the freeing of slaves.


Quote:
"The Prophet said, "Give food to the hungry, pay a visit to the sick and release (set free) the one in captivity (by paying his ransom)."
- Bukhari




Quote:
...it is righteousness to believe in God and the Last Day, and the Angels, and the Book, and the Messengers; to spend of your substance, out of love for Him, for your kin, for orphans, for the needy, for the wayfarer, for those who ask, and for the ransom of slaves...
al-Baqarah, v.177





In modern day Australia, the people are slaves to the banks. Islam forbids this kind of slavery altogether.



Quote:
Average Australian credit cardholder owes $4757

AUSTRALIANS owe more than $36 billion in credit card debt, and it is rapidly growing.

The moneysmart.gov.au website of the Australian Securities and Investments Commission found the average debt per cardholder was $4757.

http://www.news.com.au/money/banking/debt-cut-in-best-interests/story-e6frfmcr-1226290061897





Quote:
Someone earning the average weekly wage of $1124.50 would be hard pressed to pay off an average mortgage – which according to brokers Australian Finance Group is $341,000.

Repayments on that amount over 30 years at current interest rates would take up 59 per cent of an average pay packet. Two people contributing to an average-sized mortgage would still have to hand over 30 per cent of their combined income to meet repayments.

http://www.perthnow.com.au/money/are-you-an-average-australian/story-e6frg2uc-1111116973936




The prophet demonstrated through his example that Muslims should prefer to free people rather than enslave by freeing, during his 10-year period of leadership, thousands of captives and saving them from slavery:


Quote:
"'Abdullah bin Umar reported that 'Umar bin Khattab asked the Messenger of God (may peace be upon him) as he was at ji'rana (a town near Mecca) on his way back from Ta'if: Messenger of Allah, I had taken a vow during the days of Ignorance that I would observe seclusion for one day in the Sacred Mosque. So what is your opinion? He said: Go and observe seclusion for a day. And God's Messenger gave him a slave girl out of the one-fifth. And when God's Messenger set the war prisoners free. Umar bin Khattab heard their voice as they were saying: "God's Messenger has set us free!" He ('Umar) said: "What is this?" They said: "God's Messenger has set free the prisoners of war". Thereupon he ('Umar) said: "Abdullah, go to that slave-girl and set her free."

- Saheeh Muslim

Title: Re: difference between wives and sex slaves
Post by True Colours on Aug 6th, 2013 at 2:40am

Soren wrote on Jul 21st, 2013 at 8:10pm:
North African pirates abducted and enslaved more than 1 million Europeans between 1530 and 1780 in a series of raids which depopulated coastal towns from Sicily to Cornwall, according to new research.


There is little evidence to prove that such a number of people were abducted by pirates in the Mediterranean.


In the time period you are talking about, the Inquisitioning fanatical Spanish Christians were in firm control of the areas of the Mediterranean where this piracy is alleged to have occurred.


Quote:
The Western Mediterranean sea was dominated by the Crown of Aragon: thanks to their possessions of Sicily, the Kingdom of Naples, the Kingdom of Sardinia, the Balearic Islands, the Duchy of Athens the Duchy of Neopatria, and several northern African cities, by the 1420s they kept tight control over the trade routes of that linked the Western and Eastern Mediterranean. Their army was the biggest in the Mediterranean sea, and during the 15th century its power remained unchallenged...

....A balance of power was then established between Spain and Ottoman Empire until 18th century, each dominating their respective half of Mediterranean, reducing Italian navies as naval powers increasingly more irrelevant.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Mediterranean_region





In the time period you are talking about Christian Europeans transported 12 million African slaves to the Americas with tacit government approval. We are not talking about pirates here, but Christian government-sanctioned brutal slavery.


We are talking about brutal depopulation of the West coast of Africa with many Africans dying on the terrible journey to America in cramped conditions. Brutal punishments and sex-slavery by Christian masters awaited the Africans in the Americas.



Quote:
Some scholars, such as Marimba Ani and Maulana Karenga, use the terms "African Holocaust" or "Holocaust of Enslavement"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantic_slave_trade

Title: Re: difference between wives and sex slaves
Post by freediver on Aug 6th, 2013 at 6:38pm
TC on the difference between wives and sex slaves in Islam:


True Colours wrote on Aug 6th, 2013 at 3:38am:
There is a difference between the traditional Western slave and the Islamic concubine. The concubine in Islam is treated like a wife; there are  inheritance rights and protection from sexual exploitation, and the likelihood of the upgrading/granting of status to free.


TC, does Islam give women a choice as to whether they become a sex slave in Islam? Is this a difference between wives and sex slaves?

What does a female sex slave have to do to become free? Bear her owner a male child? Then what? Walk away and live the life she always wanted to because she is now free?

What "protection from sexual exploitation" does Islam grant sex slaves? Is this a reference to the passage in the Koran that states that women will be forgiven if they are forced into sexual exploitation?


True Colours wrote on Aug 6th, 2013 at 3:38am:
The meaning is simple; some men had consexual sex with their concubines.


Did some have non-consensual sex? Or does this not make sense if the only consent required is God's?

What is the punishment for not getting your sex slave's consent before having sex with her? Or did this issue never arise in Muhammed's time? He must have been quite the swooner. After all, he chopped off a man's head, then took his wife as a sex slave and she bore him children.

How do you even approach the concept of consent in the context of slavery?

Title: Re: difference between wives and sex slaves
Post by True Colours on Aug 6th, 2013 at 8:36pm
There are no sex slaves in Islam.


Quote:
...Do not force your maids to sexual servitude...

- the Quran, an-Noor, v.33

Title: Re: difference between wives and sex slaves
Post by freediver on Aug 6th, 2013 at 8:53pm
Doesn't that refer to prostituting them out?

What is the punishment for raping your sex slave?

Has a Muslim ever been punished under Islamic law for raping a sex slave?

Why would you describe these female slaves as being like wives?

What do they have to to to "earn" their freedom?

Title: Re: difference between wives and sex slaves
Post by Lionel Edriess on Aug 6th, 2013 at 8:57pm

True Colours wrote on Aug 6th, 2013 at 8:36pm:
There are no sex slaves in Islam.


Quote:
...Do not force your maids to sexual servitude...

- the Quran, an-Noor, v.33


" ... Two categories of women have been excluded from the general command of guarding the private parts: (a) wives, (b) women who are legally in one’s possession, i.e. slave-girls. Thus the verse clearly lays down the law that one is allowed to have sexual relation with one’s slave-girl as with one’s wife, the basis being possession and not marriage. If marriage had been the condition, the slave-girl also would have been included among the wives, and there was no need to mention them separately. (Ibid. p. 241, note 7) ... "

http://www.answering-islam.org/Authors/Arlandson/women_slaves.htm

Malik 362:1221 Ibn Fahd said "I have some slave girls who are better than my wives, but I do not desire that they should all become pregnant. Shall I do azl(withdrawal) with them?" Hajjaj said "They are your fields of cultivation. If you wish to irrigate them do so, if not keep them dry."

Read the next verse carefully.

" ... Malik 365:1245 A man said, "My wife has willfully given my slavegirl with whom I used to cohabit her own milk to drink. What is my relationship to the slave girl ?" Omar said "Punish your wife and go into your slave girl". ... " 

http://www.paklinks.com/gs/religion-and-scripture/39527-is-it-ok-to-have-sex-with-female-slaves-in-islam.html

;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

An opinion, like a contract, is worth merely what it states and the paper it's written on.

Got any more?

More Islamic taqiyya?

Or is that another term in public use that has no grounding in the 'scriptures'?

Title: Re: difference between wives and sex slaves
Post by adamant on Aug 6th, 2013 at 8:57pm
I was informed today why muslims wear thongs you TC proved the statement correct. People require an IQ above 60 to tie shoelaces. Abu stated that Jews and muslims are from the same tribe. It has also been written on here that Jews are descendants of pigs and apes as you are a muslim which branch or trough did you descend from? You really do write a lot of crap even for a muslim, have you got a diploma for it.


True Colours wrote on Aug 6th, 2013 at 2:40am:
There is little evidence to prove that such a number of people were abducted by pirates in the Mediterranean.


Corsairs captured thousands of ships, and long stretches of coast in Spain and Italy were almost completely abandoned by their inhabitants, discouraging settlement until the 19th century. From the 16th to 19th century, corsairs captured an estimated 800,000 to 1.25 million people as slaves.
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbary_pirates

Well that's nice!


True Colours wrote on Aug 6th, 2013 at 2:40am:
In the time period you are talking about, the Inquisitioning fanatical Spanish Christians were in firm control of the areas of the Mediterranean where this piracy is alleged to have occurred


Written by a true ignorant muslim, they were not! Whilst on the subject of Spain though between 3000 to 5000 people were killed in the Spanish Inquisition over a period of 350 years . You lot killed up to 7000 Jews in Spain in a matter of days, the year 1066.


True Colours wrote on Aug 6th, 2013 at 2:40am:
We are talking about brutal depopulation of the West coast of Africa with many Africans dying on the terrible journey to America in cramped conditions. Brutal punishments and sex-slavery by Christian masters awaited the Africans in the Americas


A comparison of the Muslim slave trade to the American slave trade reveals some interesting contrasts. While two out of every three slaves shipped across the Atlantic were men, the proportions were reversed in the Muslim slave trade. Two women for every man were enslaved by the Muslims.



While the mortality rate for slaves being transported across the Atlantic was as high as 10%, the percentage of slaves dying in transit in the Trans Sahara and East African slave trade was between 80 and 90%!



While almost all the slaves shipped across the Atlantic were for agricultural work, most of the slaves destined for the Muslim Middle East were for sexual exploitation as concubines, in harems, and for military service.



While many children were born to slaves in the Americas, and millions of their descendants are citizens in Brazil and the USA to this day, very few descendants of the slaves that ended up in the Middle East survive.



While most slaves who went to the Americas could marry and have families, most of the male slaves destined for the Middle East were castrated, and most of the children born to the women were killed at birth.



It is estimated that possibly as many as 11 million Africans were transported across the Atlantic (95% of which went to South and Central America, mainly to Portuguese, Spanish and French possessions. Only 5% of the slaves went to the United States).


Slaves in Africa - in the early 20th century. 



However, at least 28 million Africans were enslaved in the Muslim Middle East. As at least 80% of those captured by Muslim slave traders were calculated to have died before reaching the slave markets, it is believed that the death toll from the 14 centuries of Muslim slave raids into Africa could have been over 112 million. When added to the number of those sold in the slave markets, the total number of African victims of the Trans Saharan and East African slave trade could be significantly higher than 140 million people.

By some calculations the number of victims of the 14 centuries of Muslim slave trade could exceed 180 million.


The death toll from 14 centuries of the Muslim slave trade in Africa is estimated at over 112 million.


Ibn Khaldun (1332 - 1406) the preeminent Muslim medieval historian and social thinker wrote:  "The Negro nations are as a rule submissive to slavery because they have attributes that are quite similar to dumb animals."

When the Fatimids came to power they slaughtered all the tens of thousands of black military slaves and raised an entirely new slave army.

http://truthandgrace.com/muslimslavery.htm

Get your facts correct next time you Racist bigot.

PS why don't you do as your wife tells you and go to that muslim loving place called Saudi Arabia. Is it because you would have to smacking work for a living?

Title: Re: difference between wives and sex slaves
Post by moses on Aug 6th, 2013 at 9:24pm
True Colours wrote:

Quote:
There are no sex slaves in Islam.

Quote:

[quote]
..Do not force your maids to sexual servitude...

the quran, an-Noor, v.33
[/quote]

LIES, LIES, and more iSLAMIC LIES from the muslims.

an-Noor, v.33 says:
And let those who do not find the means to marry keep chaste until Allah makes them free from want out of His grace. And (as for) those who ask for a writing from among those whom your right hands possess, give them the writing if you know any good in them, and give them of the wealth of Allah which He has given you; and do not compel your slave girls to prostitution, when they desire to keep chaste, in order to seek the frail good of this world's life; and whoever compels them, then surely after their compulsion Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

So it appears that lying muslims are so deluded, they cannot understand the simple fact that a girl who is compelled to have forced sex is actually a sex slave.

muslims are liars

Title: Re: difference between wives and sex slaves
Post by Lionel Edriess on Aug 6th, 2013 at 9:32pm

True Colours wrote on Aug 6th, 2013 at 8:36pm:
There are no sex slaves in Islam.


Quote:
...Do not force your maids to sexual servitude...

- the Quran, an-Noor, v.33


It just occurred to me!

Hey, TC, are you one of the mujahdeen kept employed by the disinformation offices of the various sects of the Islamic socio/religious organisations?

Do you even reside in this country? Are you working in gainful paid employment? Do you pay taxes?

One should always be wary of those who offer peace on the point of a sword.

The last time your lot attempted your grab for world-wide domination, you were defeated at the Battle of Tours.

Despite your successful insinuation into Western decision-making since, the next attempt will have the same outcome.

The simple reason that this will happen can be illustrated in the differences between our catechisms and your hadiths.



Title: Re: difference between wives and sex slaves
Post by Yadda on Aug 6th, 2013 at 9:35pm

Adamant wrote on Aug 6th, 2013 at 8:57pm:
I was informed today why muslims wear thongs you TC proved the statement correct. People require an IQ above 60 to tie shoelaces. Abu stated that Jews and muslims are from the same tribe. It has also been written on here that Jews are descendants of pigs and apes as you are a muslim which branch or trough did you descend from? You really do write a lot of crap even for a muslim, have you got a diploma for it.


True Colours wrote on Aug 6th, 2013 at 2:40am:
There is little evidence to prove that such a number of people were abducted by pirates in the Mediterranean.


Corsairs captured thousands of ships, and long stretches of coast in Spain and Italy were almost completely abandoned by their inhabitants, discouraging settlement until the 19th century. From the 16th to 19th century, corsairs captured an estimated 800,000 to 1.25 million people as slaves.
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbary_pirates

Well that's nice!


True Colours wrote on Aug 6th, 2013 at 2:40am:
In the time period you are talking about, the Inquisitioning fanatical Spanish Christians were in firm control of the areas of the Mediterranean where this piracy is alleged to have occurred


Written by a true ignorant muslim, they were not! Whilst on the subject of Spain though between 3000 to 5000 people were killed in the Spanish Inquisition over a period of 350 years . You lot killed up to 7000 Jews in Spain in a matter of days, the year 1066.


True Colours wrote on Aug 6th, 2013 at 2:40am:
We are talking about brutal depopulation of the West coast of Africa with many Africans dying on the terrible journey to America in cramped conditions. Brutal punishments and sex-slavery by Christian masters awaited the Africans in the Americas


A comparison of the Muslim slave trade to the American slave trade reveals some interesting contrasts. While two out of every three slaves shipped across the Atlantic were men, the proportions were reversed in the Muslim slave trade. Two women for every man were enslaved by the Muslims.



While the mortality rate for slaves being transported across the Atlantic was as high as 10%, the percentage of slaves dying in transit in the Trans Sahara and East African slave trade was between 80 and 90%!



While almost all the slaves shipped across the Atlantic were for agricultural work, most of the slaves destined for the Muslim Middle East were for sexual exploitation as concubines, in harems, and for military service.



While many children were born to slaves in the Americas, and millions of their descendants are citizens in Brazil and the USA to this day, very few descendants of the slaves that ended up in the Middle East survive.



While most slaves who went to the Americas could marry and have families, most of the male slaves destined for the Middle East were castrated, and most of the children born to the women were killed at birth.


adamant,

I read that same account, several years ago.

The reason given [in the article i read at that time] for these infanticides, was that the Arab/moslem fathers [of those children], did not want THEIR personal bloodlines 'polluted' with black/Negro bloodline children.

If there were no black child....

No shame.

So, kill and dispose of those black children!





Those were despicable, abominable acts of savagery, and the murder of innocents.

But moslems [today] will never, ever, acknowledge their behaviour [i.e. the behaviour of their moslem forefathers] in that regard.i



Quote:
It is estimated that possibly as many as 11 million Africans were transported across the Atlantic (95% of which went to South and Central America, mainly to Portuguese, Spanish and French possessions. Only 5% of the slaves went to the United States).


Slaves in Africa - in the early 20th century. 



However, at least 28 million Africans were enslaved in the Muslim Middle East. As at least 80% of those captured by Muslim slave traders were calculated to have died before reaching the slave markets, it is believed that the death toll from the 14 centuries of Muslim slave raids into Africa could have been over 112 million. When added to the number of those sold in the slave markets, the total number of African victims of the Trans Saharan and East African slave trade could be significantly higher than 140 million people.

By some calculations the number of victims of the 14 centuries of Muslim slave trade could exceed 180 million.


The death toll from 14 centuries of the Muslim slave trade in Africa is estimated at over 112 million.


Ibn Khaldun (1332 - 1406) the preeminent Muslim medieval historian and social thinker wrote:  "The Negro nations are as a rule submissive to slavery because they have attributes that are quite similar to dumb animals."

When the Fatimids came to power they slaughtered all the tens of thousands of black military slaves and raised an entirely new slave army.

http://truthandgrace.com/muslimslavery.htm

Get your facts correct next time you Racist bigot.

PS why don't you do as your wife tells you and go to that muslim loving place called Saudi Arabia. Is it because you would have to smacking work for a living?




Title: Re: difference between wives and sex slaves
Post by shockresist on Aug 6th, 2013 at 10:24pm

moses wrote on Aug 6th, 2013 at 9:24pm:
True Colours wrote:

Quote:
There are no sex slaves in Islam.

Quote:

[quote]
..Do not force your maids to sexual servitude...

the quran, an-Noor, v.33


LIES, LIES, and more iSLAMIC LIES from the muslims.

an-Noor, v.33 says:
And let those who do not find the means to marry keep chaste until Allah makes them free from want out of His grace. And (as for) those who ask for a writing from among those whom your right hands possess, give them the writing if you know any good in them, and give them of the wealth of Allah which He has given you; and do not compel your slave girls to prostitution, when they desire to keep chaste, in order to seek the frail good of this world's life; and whoever compels them, then surely after their compulsion Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

So it appears that lying muslims are so deluded, they cannot understand the simple fact that a girl who is compelled to have forced sex is actually a sex slave.

muslims are liars [/quote]



The act of rape itself is illegal in Islam.

Such a female would be living in the home, being sheltered, fed, clothed, taken care of financially etc. If feelings for such a female would occur (she would be living in the home, after all), then there is no harm in having relations with her and its actually encouraged to marry such a female. Simply by considering the fact that you cannot strike your slave (striking a slave is illegal) then how can you possibly force yourself on to her?

The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) made a decision about a man who had intercourse with his wife's slave-girl as follows. If he forced her, she is free, and he shall give her mistress a slave-girl similar to her; if she asked him to have intercourse voluntarily, she will belong to him, and he shall give her mistress a slave-girl similar to her.

Title: Re: difference between wives and sex slaves
Post by moses on Aug 6th, 2013 at 10:45pm
an-Noor, v.33: and whoever COMPELS them, then surely after their COMPULSION Allah is Forgiving, Merciful

Compelling / forcing a girl to have sex IS RAPING her.

Title: Re: difference between wives and sex slaves
Post by True Colours on Aug 6th, 2013 at 11:29pm

moses wrote on Aug 6th, 2013 at 10:45pm:
an-Noor, v.33: and whoever COMPELS them, then surely after their COMPULSION Allah is Forgiving, Merciful

Compelling / forcing a girl to have sex IS RAPING her.



moses wrote on Aug 6th, 2013 at 10:35pm:
an-Noor, v.33: and if you compell them allah is forgiving.

Only in islam is compelling / forcing  a girl to have sex, not raping her.

muslims are liars.


Actually, it turns out that the Islam-bashers are the liars once again.

Why are you distorting the verse?

What it actually says:


Quote:
And if someone should force them, then indeed, God is [to the forced women], after their compulsion, Forgiving and Merciful.


eg. God does not hold the forced women as blameworthy.




How does your sick mind twist it round to somehow mean that rape is allowed?


There must be a lot of rot in your brain to come to such a conclusion.

Title: Re: difference between wives and sex slaves
Post by True Colours on Aug 7th, 2013 at 12:03am
White Christian European enslavement and brutal treatment of millions of Africans is well documented.


Quote:
Current estimates are that about 12 million were shipped across the Atlantic,[4] although the actual number purchased by the traders is considerably higher.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantic_slave_trade



But let's ignore that and make up some stuff about Muslims taking 850,000 slaves. We will post a wikipedia article that references this article which says:


Quote:
According to observers of the late 1500s and early 1600s, there were around 35,000 European Christian slaves held throughout this time on the Barbary Coast - many in Tripoli, Tunis, and various Moroccan towns, but most of all in Algiers. The greatest number were sailors, taken with their ships


http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/empire_seapower/white_slaves_01.shtml#two


The greatest number were sailors - probably working on enemy government navy ships.





Quote:
There are no records of how many men, women and children were enslaved

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/empire_seapower/white_slaves_01.shtml#two


No actual records! Well then lets just make some numbers up.

Let's go from 35,000 mostly sailors captured by pirates and inflate it to 850,000. Who needs facts? It is the the Islam-bashers way to invent facts.


Now let's look at how Muslims treat slaves compared to how Westerners keep slaves



Western Slavery

More than 1 million African slaves kidnapped by European Christian died in the terrible cramped condition aboard ships crossing the Atlantic Ocean



When they arrived in the Americas they faced beatings, rape and terrible tortures.

Nearly 1 million died at the ports shortly after arrival.

They then faced similar treatment as well as forced labour onced purchased by their new Christian master in America







Islamic Slavery


Quote:
Your slaves are your brothers and God has put them under your command. So whoever has a brother under his command should feed him of what he eats and dress him of what he wears. Do not ask them (slaves) to do things beyond their capacity (power) and if you do so, then help them.'
- Bukhari



Quote:
...And if any of your slaves ask for a deed in writing (authorising their freedom), give them such a deed if ye know any good in them...
- the Quran, an-Noor, v.33




Quote:
Napoleon Bonaparte is recorded as saying about the condition of slaves in Muslim countries:

"The slave inherits his master's property and marries his daughter. The majority of the Pashas had been slaves. Many of the grand viziers, all the Mamelukes, Ali Ben Mourad Beg, had been slaves. They began their lives by performing the most menial services in the houses of their masters and were subsequently raised in status for their merit or by favour. In the West, on the contrary, the slave has always been below the position of the domestic servants; he occupies the lowest rung. The Romans emancipated their slaves, but the emancipated were never considered as equal to the free-born. The ideas of the East and West are so different that it took a long time to make the Egyptians understand that all the army was not composed of slaves belonging to the Sultan al-Kabir."

Source:  Cherfils, Bonaparte et l'Islam (Paris, 1914)




Quote:
P. L Riviere writes:

"A master was enjoined to make his slave share the bounties he received from God. It must be recognised that, in this respect, the Islamic teaching acknowledged such a respect for human personality and showed a sense of equality which is searched for in vain in ancient civilization"

Source:  Riviere P.L., Revue Bleaue (June 1939).   




Quote:
On the attitude of Muslim master with his slaves, Will Durant says,

"...he handled them with a genial humanity that made their lot no worse - perhaps better, as more secure - than that of a factory worker in nineteenth-century Europe."

Source:  Hurgronje C., Mohammedanism, (N.Y., 1916), p. 128 as quoted by W. Durant, The Story of Civilization, vol. IV (N.Y., 1950), p. 209.



[ eg. The slave of the Muslim was better off than the free man in England in the 19th century, which probably means better off than a Workchoices slave.




So a poor Christian sailor coming from a welfareless Europe in the 17th century was probably better off as a slave of a Muslim master because his master was required to clothe him, feed him, and not brutalise him.

Many of the sailors on European ships were effectively slaves anyway as they were conscripted into naval service. The European navies were quite brutal in their treatment of conscripts so it would probably be a relief to be captured by Muslim pirates.

Title: Re: difference between wives and sex slaves
Post by moses on Aug 7th, 2013 at 3:11pm
True Colours wrote:

Quote:
[quote]And if someone should force them, then indeed, God is [to the forced women], after their compulsion, Forgiving and Merciful.


eg. God does not hold the forced women as blameworthy.[/quote]


You're certainly doing a jig trying to side step this one aren't you TC?

There are 3 accepted and recognised translations of the qur'an below

an-Noor, v.33
YUSUFALI: Let those who find not the wherewithal for marriage keep themselves chaste, until Allah gives them means out of His grace. And if any of your slaves ask for a deed in writing (to enable them to earn their freedom for a certain sum), give them such a deed if ye know any good in them: yea, give them something yourselves out of the means which Allah has given to you. But force not your maids to prostitution when they desire chastity, in order that ye may make a gain in the goods of this life. But if anyone compels them, yet, after such compulsion, is Allah, Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful (to them),

PICKTHAL: And let those who cannot find a match keep chaste till Allah give them independence by His grace. And such of your slaves as seek a writing (of emancipation), write it for them if ye are aware of aught of good in them, and bestow upon them of the wealth of Allah which He hath bestowed upon you. Force not your slave-girls to whoredom that ye may seek enjoyment of the life of the world, if they would preserve their chastity. And if one force them, then (unto them), after their compulsion, lo! Allah will be Forgiving, Merciful.

SHAKIR: And let those who do not find the means to marry keep chaste until Allah makes them free from want out of His grace. And (as for) those who ask for a writing from among those whom your right hands possess, give them the writing if you know any good in them, and give them of the wealth of Allah which He has given you; and do not compel your slave girls to prostitution, when they desire to keep chaste, in order to seek the frail good of this world's life; and whoever compels them, then surely after their compulsion Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. 

All of these say that forced prostitution is advised against however a precondition to rape the woman is given e.g: if you do compell the women allah is merciful and compassionate.

Stop going round in circles T C.

Why isn't forced prostitution / rape totally banned or prohibited?

Why is there a proviso to commit rape of women in an-Noor, v.33 ?

Why does an innocent women who has committed no sin need forgiving?

If the woman committed no sin when she was raped, how does allah forgive her non- existent sin? 

Title: Re: difference between wives and sex slaves
Post by True Colours on Aug 7th, 2013 at 8:17pm

moses wrote on Aug 7th, 2013 at 3:11pm:
True Colours wrote:

Quote:
[quote]And if someone should force them, then indeed, God is [to the forced women], after their compulsion, Forgiving and Merciful.


eg. God does not hold the forced women as blameworthy.



You're certainly doing a jig trying to side step this one aren't you TC?

There are 3 accepted and recognised translations of the qur'an below

an-Noor, v.33
YUSUFALI: Let those who find not the wherewithal for marriage keep themselves chaste, until Allah gives them means out of His grace. And if any of your slaves ask for a deed in writing (to enable them to earn their freedom for a certain sum), give them such a deed if ye know any good in them: yea, give them something yourselves out of the means which Allah has given to you. But force not your maids to prostitution when they desire chastity, in order that ye may make a gain in the goods of this life. But if anyone compels them, yet, after such compulsion, is Allah, Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful (to them),

PICKTHAL: And let those who cannot find a match keep chaste till Allah give them independence by His grace. And such of your slaves as seek a writing (of emancipation), write it for them if ye are aware of aught of good in them, and bestow upon them of the wealth of Allah which He hath bestowed upon you. Force not your slave-girls to whoredom that ye may seek enjoyment of the life of the world, if they would preserve their chastity. And if one force them, then (unto them), after their compulsion, lo! Allah will be Forgiving, Merciful.

SHAKIR: And let those who do not find the means to marry keep chaste until Allah makes them free from want out of His grace. And (as for) those who ask for a writing from among those whom your right hands possess, give them the writing if you know any good in them, and give them of the wealth of Allah which He has given you; and do not compel your slave girls to prostitution, when they desire to keep chaste, in order to seek the frail good of this world's life; and whoever compels them, then surely after their compulsion Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. 

All of these say that forced prostitution is advised against however a precondition to rape the woman is given e.g: if you do compell the women allah is merciful and compassionate.

Stop going round in circles T C.

Why isn't forced prostitution / rape totally banned or prohibited?

Why is there a proviso to commit rape of women in an-Noor, v.33 ?

Why does an innocent women who has committed no sin need forgiving?

If the woman committed no sin when she was raped, how does allah forgive her non- existent sin? 
[/quote]

Whenever a person is compelled to do evil, a sin is counted with the evil action. The sin is transferred from the person who is compelled to the person who compels.

Title: Re: difference between wives and sex slaves
Post by freediver on Aug 7th, 2013 at 8:33pm

Quote:
Simply by considering the fact that you cannot strike your slave (striking a slave is illegal)


LOL, yet Muhammed had a good laugh when his mate beat his wife. Again, can you point to the relevant verse? The orthodox view among Muslims is that ioslam permits wife beating, and you need to ignore a lot of inconvenient facts about Muhammed to claim otherwise. It will be interesting to see you explain how slaves deserve better treatment than wives. Perhaps male slaves are a rung above female Muslims?


Quote:
if you do compell the women allah is merciful and compassionate


Oh great, it even permits prostituting out your sex slave.


Quote:
The companions of Prophet Muhammed were asked about this, and they explained that a sin had been made, but that sin is transferred from the person who is compelled to the person who does the compelling.


And neither are to be punished? If Islam is so keen to kill people for having sex with the wrong person, why is it so forgiving on prostitution?

Title: Re: difference between wives and sex slaves
Post by moses on Aug 8th, 2013 at 8:14pm
True Colours


Quote:
Moses wrote:
[quote]SHAKIR: And let those who do not find the means to marry keep chaste until Allah makes them free from want out of His grace. And (as for) those who ask for a writing from among those whom your right hands possess, give them the writing if you know any good in them, and give them of the wealth of Allah which He has given you; and do not compel your slave girls to prostitution, when they desire to keep chaste, in order to seek the frail good of this world's life; and whoever compels them, then surely after their compulsion Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. 

All of these say that forced prostitution is advised against however a precondition to rape the woman is given e.g: if you do compell the women allah is merciful and compassionate.

Stop going round in circles T C.

Why isn't forced prostitution / rape totally banned or prohibited?

Why is there a proviso to commit rape of women in an-Noor, v.33 ?

Why does an innocent women who has committed no sin need forgiving?

If the woman committed no sin when she was raped, how does allah forgive her non- existent sin?


True Colours wrote:

Quote:
Whenever a person is compelled to do evil, a sin is counted with the evil action. The sin is transferred from the person who is compelled to the person who compels.
[/quote]

So let's see if I've got this right:
an-Noor, v.33 does not ban, prohibit or forbid forced prostitution / rape of women.

an-Noor, v.33 provides a precondition for forced prostitution / rape of women.

an-Noor, v.33 tells us that a woman forced into prostitution and raped is forgiven by allah.

muslims must be a backward lot, if they don't have an inherent discernment that innocent women who are raped in forced prostitution are not sinners.

To sum up:
rape is not forbidden in islam

muslims are so unintelligent, they have to be told, innocent women who are raped, are not sinners.

Title: Re: difference between wives and sex slaves
Post by adamant on Aug 8th, 2013 at 9:52pm

Adamant wrote on Aug 6th, 2013 at 8:57pm:
I was informed today why muslims wear thongs you TC proved the statement correct. People require an IQ above 60 to tie shoelaces. Abu stated that Jews and muslims are from the same tribe. It has also been written on here that Jews are descendants of pigs and apes as you are a muslim which branch or trough did you descend from? You really do write a lot of crap even for a muslim, have you got a diploma for it.


True Colours wrote on Aug 6th, 2013 at 2:40am:
There is little evidence to prove that such a number of people were abducted by pirates in the Mediterranean.


Corsairs captured thousands of ships, and long stretches of coast in Spain and Italy were almost completely abandoned by their inhabitants, discouraging settlement until the 19th century. From the 16th to 19th century, corsairs captured an estimated 800,000 to 1.25 million people as slaves.
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbary_pirates

Well that's nice!


True Colours wrote on Aug 6th, 2013 at 2:40am:
In the time period you are talking about, the Inquisitioning fanatical Spanish Christians were in firm control of the areas of the Mediterranean where this piracy is alleged to have occurred


Written by a true ignorant muslim, they were not! Whilst on the subject of Spain though between 3000 to 5000 people were killed in the Spanish Inquisition over a period of 350 years . You lot killed up to 7000 Jews in Spain in a matter of days, the year 1066.


True Colours wrote on Aug 6th, 2013 at 2:40am:
We are talking about brutal depopulation of the West coast of Africa with many Africans dying on the terrible journey to America in cramped conditions. Brutal punishments and sex-slavery by Christian masters awaited the Africans in the Americas


A comparison of the Muslim slave trade to the American slave trade reveals some interesting contrasts. While two out of every three slaves shipped across the Atlantic were men, the proportions were reversed in the Muslim slave trade. Two women for every man were enslaved by the Muslims.



While the mortality rate for slaves being transported across the Atlantic was as high as 10%, the percentage of slaves dying in transit in the Trans Sahara and East African slave trade was between 80 and 90%!



While almost all the slaves shipped across the Atlantic were for agricultural work, most of the slaves destined for the Muslim Middle East were for sexual exploitation as concubines, in harems, and for military service.



While many children were born to slaves in the Americas, and millions of their descendants are citizens in Brazil and the USA to this day, very few descendants of the slaves that ended up in the Middle East survive.



While most slaves who went to the Americas could marry and have families, most of the male slaves destined for the Middle East were castrated, and most of the children born to the women were killed at birth.



It is estimated that possibly as many as 11 million Africans were transported across the Atlantic (95% of which went to South and Central America, mainly to Portuguese, Spanish and French possessions. Only 5% of the slaves went to the United States).


Slaves in Africa - in the early 20th century. 



However, at least 28 million Africans were enslaved in the Muslim Middle East. As at least 80% of those captured by Muslim slave traders were calculated to have died before reaching the slave markets, it is believed that the death toll from the 14 centuries of Muslim slave raids into Africa could have been over 112 million. When added to the number of those sold in the slave markets, the total number of African victims of the Trans Saharan and East African slave trade could be significantly higher than 140 million people.

By some calculations the number of victims of the 14 centuries of Muslim slave trade could exceed 180 million.


The death toll from 14 centuries of the Muslim slave trade in Africa is estimated at over 112 million.


Ibn Khaldun (1332 - 1406) the preeminent Muslim medieval historian and social thinker wrote:  "The Negro nations are as a rule submissive to slavery because they have attributes that are quite similar to dumb animals."

When the Fatimids came to power they slaughtered all the tens of thousands of black military slaves and raised an entirely new slave army.

http://truthandgrace.com/muslimslavery.htm

Get your facts correct next time you Racist bigot.

PS why don't you do as your wife tells you and go to that muslim loving place called Saudi Arabia. Is it because you would have to smacking work for a living?

I have posted this again TC as you must have missed it last time

Title: Re: difference between wives and sex slaves
Post by freediver on Mar 2nd, 2014 at 5:43pm
Does anyone know where the previous discussion is where Gandalf pretended not to know about Muhammed's sex slaves?


freediver wrote on Mar 1st, 2014 at 7:34pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 23rd, 2014 at 9:59am:

freediver wrote on Feb 23rd, 2014 at 9:14am:
Muhammed had sex with his sex slaves.


No he didn't. Muhammad had sex with no one he wasn't married to.

Now stand by as Baron swoops in and "proves" me wrong with a quote from islamqa


freediver wrote on Feb 23rd, 2014 at 9:14am:
What is the proper Islamic punishment for raping your sex slave or spouse?


Not sure FD - what is the "proper islamic punishment" for drinking alcohol or charging riba? Since they also don't have any specified punishment. Does it mean islam permits those as well? Must be.


I thought we had been over this Gandalf. Muhammed had about a dozen wives and a large number of sex slaves.



polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 1st, 2014 at 8:42pm:
Muhammad had perhaps 13 wives and precisely zero sex slaves.



freediver wrote on Mar 1st, 2014 at 10:49pm:
Oops, my bad. I meant "slaves that you can have sex with".

Is there actually uncertainty about how many wives Muhammed had?



polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 2nd, 2014 at 5:08pm:
he had no slaves that he had sex with.


Title: Re: difference between wives and sex slaves
Post by Karnal on Mar 2nd, 2014 at 6:42pm
No, FD, but it’s good to see you addressing such important questions here.

The moral challenges of our age, no?

Australian Politics Forum » Powered by YaBB 2.5.2!
YaBB Forum Software © 2000-2024. All Rights Reserved.