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Message started by adamant on Jan 29th, 2012 at 12:25am

Title: Iteresting Islamic Fact
Post by adamant on Jan 29th, 2012 at 12:25am
I reminisced about the Belsan atrocity today wondering how a religious organization could even contemplate such a heinous crime against children.
Yes they were Muslim.
Yes they followed Islam.
Do we in the west have to look forward to this kind of barbaric act.
Should we outlaw the cult of Islam?

crombouke.blogspot.com/2010/01/beslan-child-rape-torture-enforced.html

Title: Re: Iteresting Islamic Fact
Post by Sprintcyclist on Jan 29th, 2012 at 12:34am
yes 

yes

Title: Re: Iteresting Islamic Fact
Post by falah on Jan 29th, 2012 at 1:08am
"Religious organisation"?

The hostage takers were motivated by the Russian genocide in their country.

Prior to the Beslan siege, the Russians destroyed the capital of Chechnya, Grozny.
























Chechen Victims of Russian Agression Prior To Beslan:

































Chechen Kids killed By Russians Long Before Beslan









Brutal Russians





Evil Putin















It should be noted that witnesses have said that the Russians fired on the first in the seige of Beslan.

Title: Re: Iteresting Islamic Fact
Post by Yadda on Jan 29th, 2012 at 1:25am

falah wrote on Jan 29th, 2012 at 1:08am:
"Religious organisation"?

The hostage takers were motivated by the Russian genocide in their country.



But the 'hostage takers' were NOT motivated by Jihad 'operations' and ISLAM.
....THAT is the implication, of your claim.



falah,
If that is correct, then why did the 'hostage takers' yell;   "Allahu Akhbar"   ???



“The terrorists ran in yelling, 'Allahu Akhbar,' ”


Google;
beslan, allah akbar




Title: Re: Iteresting Islamic Fact
Post by Yadda on Jan 29th, 2012 at 1:37am
falah,


And all of those images, of all those dead children which you presented to us ???

Surely, you approve of their sacrifice ?





"....the death of those who are killed for the cause of God gives more impetus to the cause, which continues to thrive on their blood."
ISLAMIC scholar, Sayyid Qutb.


cited again here.....


Quote:


June 26, 2006
The roots of Islamism
".....Islamists believe in the re-ordering of society to secure total submission to a narrow, puritan and fundamentalist interpretation of Islam......


That cleansing process must be accomplished by suicidal violence,



because, in the words of Islamism's most influential thinker, Sayyid Qutb, "the death of those who are killed for the cause of God gives more impetus to the cause, which continues to thrive on their blood.".....

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/michael_gove/article679544.ece




“ 'Allahu Akhbar,' ”

....falah.





Google;
beslan, allah akbar



Title: Re: Iteresting Islamic Fact
Post by falah on Jan 29th, 2012 at 1:51am

Yadda wrote on Jan 29th, 2012 at 1:25am:

falah wrote on Jan 29th, 2012 at 1:08am:
"Religious organisation"?

The hostage takers were motivated by the Russian genocide in their country.



But the 'hostage takers' were NOT motivated by Jihad 'operations' and ISLAM.
....THAT is the implication, of your claim.



falah,
If that is correct, then why did the 'hostage takers' yell;   "Allahu Akhbar"   ???



Well, if you read it in the Daily Mail it must be true?

So George Bush must have been

God told me to invade, says Bush

US PRESIDENT George Bush has said that he was instructed by God to invade Iraq and Afghanistan, according to a new BBC series.

The claim comes from the first meeting between the US leader, the Palestinian Prime Minister Mahmoud Abbas (also known as Abu Mazen), and his then foreign minister in June 2003.

The ministers say that Mr Bush also revealed to them that he had been told by God to create a Palestinian state.

Former Palestinian foreign minister Nabil Shaath, now the Information Minister, describes the meeting with the US leader, in the BBC2 program, Elusive Peace: Israel and the Arabs.

He says: "President Bush said to all of us: 'I'm driven with a mission from God'.

"God would tell me, 'George, go and fight those terrorists in Afghanistan'. And I did, and then God would tell me, 'George, go and end the tyranny in Iraq . . .' And I did...

http://www.theage.com.au/news/iraq/god-told-me-to-invade-says-bush/2005/10/07/1128562952070.html




...he apparently confided in a Texan evangelist, James Robinson, that he had a premonition of national tragedy. "I feel like God wants me to run for president. I can't explain it, but I sense my country is going to need me. Something is going to happen," Mr Bush said. "I know it won't be easy on me or my family, but God wants me to do it."...

...Mr Bush spoke of a "crusade" against the country's enemies. The word was quickly expunged from the presidential vocabulary, but it appeared to echo a religious sense of mission in Mr Bush's mind. In his state of the union address two years later, he suggested that his pre-emptive foreign policy doctrine was also divinely inspired.

"This call of history has come to the right country," he said. "The liberty we prize is not America's gift to the world, it is God's gift to humanity.'...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2005/oct/07/usa.georgebush







Title: Re: Iteresting Islamic Fact
Post by adamant on Jan 29th, 2012 at 3:19pm
Falah, you obviously did not read the article or you would have noticed that the sub human scum that perpetrated these atrocities did so to young people under the age of any wrong doing. They shoved the barrels of their rifles into young girls vaginas and did such damage to their young bodies they would not survive even if taken to hospital immediately. Why did they take video evidence of pack rape and stab a baby of only 18 months of age.
WHY WAS A THIRD OF THE PERPATRATERS NOT FROM CHECHYN IF IT WERE PURELY TO DO WITH RUSSIA???

WHY WERE THEY FUNDED BY THE HOUSE OF SAUD???

You are only interested in defending the indefensible and your thought pattern appals me.

From your previous and numerous posts it is apparent to all that you believe the rape of young girls is an accepted part of your murderous cult and Muslims are allowed to do it to promote an erroneous disgusting belief system. In keeping with your perverted sense of justice read about 50 out of  56 rapes that were carried out by Muslims in the UK.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1374443/Police-hid-abuse-60-girls-Asian-takeaway-workers-linked-Charlene-Downes-murder.html#ixzz1JFicr6Qa

To all that may read this thread please go here        media.photobucket.com/image/beslan/Angerway/Beslan/Beslan092004.jpg?o=17#!oZZ1QQcurrentZZhttp%3A%2F%2Fmedia.photobucket.com%2Fimage%2Fbeslan%2FAngerway%2FBeslan%2FBeslan.jpg%3Fo%3D1 to see the true horror of Islam.

Title: Re: Iteresting Islamic Fact
Post by PoliticalPuppet on Jan 29th, 2012 at 3:23pm
Following your logic we should just about ban every single religion including christianity.
They are all dangerous.

Title: Re: Iteresting Islamic Fact
Post by adamant on Jan 29th, 2012 at 3:29pm

bobbythefap1 wrote on Jan 29th, 2012 at 3:23pm:
Following your logic we should just about ban every single religion including christianity.
They are all dangerous.


Define "LOGIC" regarding Religion

Title: Re: Iteresting Islamic Fact
Post by PoliticalPuppet on Jan 29th, 2012 at 3:40pm

Adamant wrote on Jan 29th, 2012 at 3:29pm:

bobbythefap1 wrote on Jan 29th, 2012 at 3:23pm:
Following your logic we should just about ban every single religion including christianity.
They are all dangerous.


Define "LOGIC" regarding Religion
Well there is no logic in religion, but regarding religion you asked whether we should outlaw one because something bad happened in its name; which is the same for almost all mainstream religions.
Christian nations like the US and UK are easily the worst human rights offenders and murderers to this day but we don’t outlaw Christianity.

Title: Re: Iteresting Islamic Fact
Post by abu_rashid on Jan 29th, 2012 at 8:09pm
Not to mention that this was not the first genocide Russians committed against the Chechens. During Stalin's years, the ENTIRE population of the countries of Chechnya, Dagestan and Ingushetia were completely uprooted and force marched to Siberia.

And in fact the Russian genocides against these people stretch back to the time of Catherine the "Great", when the entire Caucus region was almost completely wiped free of Muslims, millions dying in the process.

The Russians have been brutalising these people for centuries, and it has not ceased. To then complain when they finally hit back like in Beslan, and claim Muslims are the brutal ones is just ridiculous. You're a feeble minded tool adamant.

That's doesn't excuse the taking of kids hostage, but when a nation's ARMED FORCES, ie. the official military of the country, march into your country and do it to your kids, would you be thinking rationally do you think???? What normal human being wouldn't go absolutely troppo after such inhuman onslaughts????

And as falah said, it's well known fact the Russian forces themselves were responsible for the majority of deaths there.

And the hostage takers were definitely mostly Caucasians, Putin tried to downplay the fact, originally claiming they were mostly Arabs, because he didn't want to admit that it was an obvious retaliation for the inhuman atrocities his thugs has been committing in their country. He also wanted to try and link it to "International terrorism" to rally the acceptance of the West for his actions in the Caucus.

Also what you fail to mention in your emotionally-charged drivel that you've presented as an argument, is that after the Mujahideen of the Caucus witnessed how low the Russians were willing to go to end the crisis (ie. shooting and gassing their own people), they completely banned all hostage taking missions after this.

And many of the different factions condemned this act as madness, although recognising the people had been driven out of their minds by the Russian inhumanities against the civilians of the Caucus.

It's really rich for people who have no qualms about completely obliterating an entire city of people, to then whinge about one single school. How many schools did the official Russian military obliterate in Grozny??? where's the sympathy and tears for them??? It doesn't exist does it? Because your argument is a load of bollocks, and you know it. You're a half witted simpleton, who can't even mount a half decent argument to save yourself.

Title: Re: Iteresting Islamic Fact
Post by adamant on Jan 29th, 2012 at 9:07pm

bobbythefap1 wrote on Jan 29th, 2012 at 3:40pm:

Adamant wrote on Jan 29th, 2012 at 3:29pm:

bobbythefap1 wrote on Jan 29th, 2012 at 3:23pm:
Following your logic we should just about ban every single religion including christianity.
They are all dangerous.


Define "LOGIC" regarding Religion
Well there is no logic in religion, but regarding religion you asked whether we should outlaw one because something bad happened in its name; which is the same for almost all mainstream religions.
Christian nations like the US and UK are easily the worst human rights offenders and murderers to this day but we don’t outlaw Christianity.

You are incorrect when you say Christianity has killed more people than islam. Muslims have killed over 80 million Hindus in its thirst for wealth and slaves. Islam was the biggest slave trading nation on the planet. It is estimated that 11 million African slaves were transported to the Americas, only 5 % of which went to the USA .Of all slaves captured by Muslims and sent to Islamic lands most were women and used for sexual gratification The harem of Abdal Rahman III (912 - 961) in Cordoba (check out Spain for the slaughter of 3500 Jews in 1066) contained over 6,000 concubines! And the one in the Fatimid Palace in Cairo had twice as many . Male slaves were castrated. Have you noticed how pale the Arabs are? That is because they killed all of the offspring of black African slave women descent! Slavery was only abolished around 1960 in Saudi Arabia. 140 million Africans are estimated to have been enslaved by muslims over the centuries 80% of which died in transit to market. Muslims have been parasites for all of the centuries Islam has been around. Timure the lame made towers out of human skulls, of course he had them beheaded first in the morning so he could study the arts in the afternoon.
I have explained away only a small proportion of the deaths caused by Muslims you could possibly double the deaths by adding in invasions, oppression, starvation by high tax take and general disregard to other humans.

Hitler, Mao and Stalin would be in awe at the debauchery that the muslims have perpetrated on the western world since its conception by a man who went to caves had fits heard voices had an invisible jinn sit on his shoulder talking to him and him only telling him god has given him and him alone the right to kill maim slaughter rape steal and enslave all who chose not believe in that invisible piece of excrement called Allah.

Bertrand Russel said of Muslims “Arabic philosophy is not important as original thought. Men like Avicenna and Averroes are essentially commentators. Speaking generally, the views of the more scientific philosophers come from Aristotle and the Neo-Platonists in logic and metaphysics, from Galen in medicine, from Greek and Indian sources in mathematics and astronomy, and among mystics religious philosophy has also an admixture of old Persian beliefs. Writers in Arabic showed some originality in mathematics and in chemistry--in the latter case, as an incidental result of alchemical researches. Mohammedan civilization in its great days was admirable in the arts and in many technical ways, but it showed no capacity for independent speculation in theoretical matters”.

www.ntslibrary.com/PDF%20Books/History%20of%20Western%20Philosophy.pdf

Title: Re: Iteresting Islamic Fact
Post by freediver on Jan 29th, 2012 at 9:48pm
You are forgetting the bloke who jumped of a building with feathers glued to his arms. Ask Abu about his great contribution to our understanding of flight.

Title: Re: Iteresting Islamic Fact
Post by abu_rashid on Jan 29th, 2012 at 11:32pm

Adamant wrote on Jan 29th, 2012 at 9:07pm:
You are incorrect when you say Christianity has killed more people than islam. Muslims have killed over 80 million Hindus


Come on enough of the fantasies.

I can't believe the enemies of Islam are docile enough to drag out this nonsense, which did not have a single documented contemporary historical account, but was concocted by an American "historian" about 700-800 years after the supposed event took place. Or the other famous "evidence" for it, the name Hindu kush = slaughter hindus  ;D ;D ;D

With each post you just keep getting better don't you adamant. You certainly are adamant about something, whittling away your own credibility it seems.

Title: Re: Iteresting Islamic Fact
Post by adamant on Jan 29th, 2012 at 11:41pm

freediver wrote on Jan 29th, 2012 at 9:48pm:
You are forgetting the bloke who jumped of a building with feathers glued to his arms. Ask Abu about his great contribution to our understanding of flight.



Sorry Freediver

Title: Re: Iteresting Islamic Fact
Post by adamant on Jan 30th, 2012 at 12:06am

abu_rashid wrote on Jan 29th, 2012 at 11:32pm:

Adamant wrote on Jan 29th, 2012 at 9:07pm:
You are incorrect when you say Christianity has killed more people than islam. Muslims have killed over 80 million Hindus


Come on enough of the fantasies.

I can't believe the enemies of Islam are docile enough to drag out this nonsense, which did not have a single documented contemporary historical account, but was concocted by an American "historian" about 700-800 years after the supposed event took place. Or the other famous "evidence" for it, the name Hindu kush = slaughter hindus  ;D ;D ;D

With each post you just keep getting better don't you adamant. You certainly are adamant about something, whittling away your own credibility it seems.


I think you should study the history of your cult before you try personal and pitiful attacks. You should also read about the sub human acts that MUSLIMS committed in Beslan, which you have not.

I was born a muslim you are nothing more than a smacking retread who would have me killed for saying allah does not exist, Get a life become an atheist!

Title: Re: Iteresting Islamic Fact
Post by adamant on Jan 30th, 2012 at 12:36am

abu_rashid wrote on Jan 29th, 2012 at 11:32pm:

Adamant wrote on Jan 29th, 2012 at 9:07pm:
You are incorrect when you say Christianity has killed more people than islam. Muslims have killed over 80 million Hindus




Come on enough of the fantasies.

I can't believe the enemies of Islam are docile enough to drag out this nonsense, which did not have a single documented contemporary historical account, but was concocted by an American "historian" about 700-800 years after the supposed event took place. Or the other famous "evidence" for it, the name Hindu kush = slaughter hindus  ;D ;D ;D

With each post you just keep getting better don't you adamant. You certainly are adamant about something, whittling away your own credibility it seems.


As I have stated before it was estimated that 1 million Hindus were killed by West Pakistan when East Pakistan sought independence.
To learn more of your disgusting and immoral cult go to this en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Hindus but then again once an ignorant savage always an ignorant savage, I will however try to educate you to the best of my ability. For I am an optimistic atheist and would not dream of killing humans.

Title: Re: Iteresting Islamic Fact
Post by adamant on Jan 30th, 2012 at 1:13am

abu_rashid wrote on Jan 29th, 2012 at 11:32pm:

Adamant wrote on Jan 29th, 2012 at 9:07pm:
You are incorrect when you say Christianity has killed more people than islam. Muslims have killed over 80 million Hindus


Come on enough of the fantasies.

I can't believe the enemies of Islam are docile enough to drag out this nonsense, which did not have a single documented contemporary historical account, but was concocted by an American "historian" about 700-800 years after the supposed event took place. Or the other famous "evidence" for it, the name Hindu kush = slaughter hindus  ;D ;D ;D

With each post you just keep getting better don't you adamant. You certainly are adamant about something, whittling away your own credibility it seems.


You are concerned by my assertion that 80 million Hindus were killed by muslims but make no mention of the 100 million slave deaths, this explains to me your scant regard of non islamic life forms including humans.

Title: Re: Iteresting Islamic Fact
Post by abu_rashid on Jan 30th, 2012 at 5:37am
Just tackling one lie at a time.

So I take it you don't have a single historically contemporary source for the 80 million claim?

ie. You concede you're nothing but a liar?

Title: Re: Iteresting Islamic Fact
Post by Soren on Jan 30th, 2012 at 10:03am
It was really bad, whatever the numbers.

There is no official estimate of the total death toll of Hindus at the hands of Islam. A first glance at important testimonies by Muslim chroniclers suggests that, over 13 centuries and a territory as vast as the Subcontinent, Muslim Holy Warriors easily killed more Hindus than the 6 million of the Holocaust. Ferishtha lists several occasions when the Bahmani sultans in central India (1347-1528) killed a hundred thousand Hindus, which they set as a minimum goal whenever they felt like "punishing" the Hindus; and they were only a third-rank provincial dynasty. The biggest slaughters took place during the raids of Mahmud Ghaznavi (ca. 1000 CE); during the actual conquest of North India by Mohammed Ghori and his lieutenants (1192 ff.); and under the Delhi Sultanate (1206-1526). The Moghuls (1526-1857), even Babar and Aurangzeb, were fairly restrained tyrants by comparison. Prof. K.S. Lal once estimated that the Indian population declined by 50 million under the Sultanate, but that would be hard to substantiate; research into the magnitude of the damage Islam did to India is yet to start in right earnest.
http://koenraadelst.bharatvani.org/articles/irin/genocide.html

Title: Re: Iteresting Islamic Fact
Post by PoliticalPuppet on Jan 30th, 2012 at 10:10am

Adamant wrote on Jan 29th, 2012 at 9:07pm:

bobbythefap1 wrote on Jan 29th, 2012 at 3:40pm:

Adamant wrote on Jan 29th, 2012 at 3:29pm:

bobbythefap1 wrote on Jan 29th, 2012 at 3:23pm:
Following your logic we should just about ban every single religion including christianity.
They are all dangerous.


Define "LOGIC" regarding Religion
Well there is no logic in religion, but regarding religion you asked whether we should outlaw one because something bad happened in its name; which is the same for almost all mainstream religions.
Christian nations like the US and UK are easily the worst human rights offenders and murderers to this day but we don’t outlaw Christianity.

You are incorrect when you say Christianity has killed more people than islam. Muslims have killed over 80 million Hindus in its thirst for wealth and slaves. Islam was the biggest slave trading nation on the planet. It is estimated that 11 million African slaves were transported to the Americas, only 5 % of which went to the USA .Of all slaves captured by Muslims and sent to Islamic lands most were women and used for sexual gratification The harem of Abdal Rahman III (912 - 961) in Cordoba (check out Spain for the slaughter of 3500 Jews in 1066) contained over 6,000 concubines! And the one in the Fatimid Palace in Cairo had twice as many . Male slaves were castrated. Have you noticed how pale the Arabs are? That is because they killed all of the offspring of black African slave women descent! Slavery was only abolished around 1960 in Saudi Arabia. 140 million Africans are estimated to have been enslaved by muslims over the centuries 80% of which died in transit to market. Muslims have been parasites for all of the centuries Islam has been around. Timure the lame made towers out of human skulls, of course he had them beheaded first in the morning so he could study the arts in the afternoon.
I have explained away only a small proportion of the deaths caused by Muslims you could possibly double the deaths by adding in invasions, oppression, starvation by high tax take and general disregard to other humans.

Hitler, Mao and Stalin would be in awe at the debauchery that the muslims have perpetrated on the western world since its conception by a man who went to caves had fits heard voices had an invisible jinn sit on his shoulder talking to him and him only telling him god has given him and him alone the right to kill maim slaughter rape steal and enslave all who chose not believe in that invisible piece of excrement called Allah.

Bertrand Russel said of Muslims “Arabic philosophy is not important as original thought. Men like Avicenna and Averroes are essentially commentators. Speaking generally, the views of the more scientific philosophers come from Aristotle and the Neo-Platonists in logic and metaphysics, from Galen in medicine, from Greek and Indian sources in mathematics and astronomy, and among mystics religious philosophy has also an admixture of old Persian beliefs. Writers in Arabic showed some originality in mathematics and in chemistry--in the latter case, as an incidental result of alchemical researches. Mohammedan civilization in its great days was admirable in the arts and in many technical ways, but it showed no capacity for independent speculation in theoretical matters”.

www.ntslibrary.com/PDF%20Books/History%20of%20Western%20Philosophy.pdf

It would take too long to list all the deaths at the hands of christians.
Its been happening for a lot longer then Muslims, and still continues to this day.
Just in the last century the US has been repsonsible for hundreds of millions of deaths.

Title: Re: Iteresting Islamic Fact
Post by gizmo_2655 on Jan 30th, 2012 at 10:17am

bobbythefap1 wrote on Jan 30th, 2012 at 10:10am:

Adamant wrote on Jan 29th, 2012 at 9:07pm:

bobbythefap1 wrote on Jan 29th, 2012 at 3:40pm:

Adamant wrote on Jan 29th, 2012 at 3:29pm:

bobbythefap1 wrote on Jan 29th, 2012 at 3:23pm:
Following your logic we should just about ban every single religion including christianity.
They are all dangerous.


Define "LOGIC" regarding Religion
Well there is no logic in religion, but regarding religion you asked whether we should outlaw one because something bad happened in its name; which is the same for almost all mainstream religions.
Christian nations like the US and UK are easily the worst human rights offenders and murderers to this day but we don’t outlaw Christianity.

You are incorrect when you say Christianity has killed more people than islam. Muslims have killed over 80 million Hindus in its thirst for wealth and slaves. Islam was the biggest slave trading nation on the planet. It is estimated that 11 million African slaves were transported to the Americas, only 5 % of which went to the USA .Of all slaves captured by Muslims and sent to Islamic lands most were women and used for sexual gratification The harem of Abdal Rahman III (912 - 961) in Cordoba (check out Spain for the slaughter of 3500 Jews in 1066) contained over 6,000 concubines! And the one in the Fatimid Palace in Cairo had twice as many . Male slaves were castrated. Have you noticed how pale the Arabs are? That is because they killed all of the offspring of black African slave women descent! Slavery was only abolished around 1960 in Saudi Arabia. 140 million Africans are estimated to have been enslaved by muslims over the centuries 80% of which died in transit to market. Muslims have been parasites for all of the centuries Islam has been around. Timure the lame made towers out of human skulls, of course he had them beheaded first in the morning so he could study the arts in the afternoon.
I have explained away only a small proportion of the deaths caused by Muslims you could possibly double the deaths by adding in invasions, oppression, starvation by high tax take and general disregard to other humans.

Hitler, Mao and Stalin would be in awe at the debauchery that the muslims have perpetrated on the western world since its conception by a man who went to caves had fits heard voices had an invisible jinn sit on his shoulder talking to him and him only telling him god has given him and him alone the right to kill maim slaughter rape steal and enslave all who chose not believe in that invisible piece of excrement called Allah.

Bertrand Russel said of Muslims “Arabic philosophy is not important as original thought. Men like Avicenna and Averroes are essentially commentators. Speaking generally, the views of the more scientific philosophers come from Aristotle and the Neo-Platonists in logic and metaphysics, from Galen in medicine, from Greek and Indian sources in mathematics and astronomy, and among mystics religious philosophy has also an admixture of old Persian beliefs. Writers in Arabic showed some originality in mathematics and in chemistry--in the latter case, as an incidental result of alchemical researches. Mohammedan civilization in its great days was admirable in the arts and in many technical ways, but it showed no capacity for independent speculation in theoretical matters”.

www.ntslibrary.com/PDF%20Books/History%20of%20Western%20Philosophy.pdf

It would take too long to list all the deaths at the hands of christians.
Its been happening for a lot longer then Muslims, and still continues to this day.
Just in the last century the US has been repsonsible for hundreds of millions of deaths.


I think the comparison would need to be of people killed for religious reasons, not in wars involving political/economic reasons.....for Christians vs Muslims.....other wise it loses all meaning...

Title: Re: Iteresting Islamic Fact
Post by PoliticalPuppet on Jan 30th, 2012 at 10:20am

gizmo_2655 wrote on Jan 30th, 2012 at 10:17am:

bobbythefap1 wrote on Jan 30th, 2012 at 10:10am:

Adamant wrote on Jan 29th, 2012 at 9:07pm:

bobbythefap1 wrote on Jan 29th, 2012 at 3:40pm:

Adamant wrote on Jan 29th, 2012 at 3:29pm:

bobbythefap1 wrote on Jan 29th, 2012 at 3:23pm:
Following your logic we should just about ban every single religion including christianity.
They are all dangerous.


Define "LOGIC" regarding Religion
Well there is no logic in religion, but regarding religion you asked whether we should outlaw one because something bad happened in its name; which is the same for almost all mainstream religions.
Christian nations like the US and UK are easily the worst human rights offenders and murderers to this day but we don’t outlaw Christianity.

You are incorrect when you say Christianity has killed more people than islam. Muslims have killed over 80 million Hindus in its thirst for wealth and slaves. Islam was the biggest slave trading nation on the planet. It is estimated that 11 million African slaves were transported to the Americas, only 5 % of which went to the USA .Of all slaves captured by Muslims and sent to Islamic lands most were women and used for sexual gratification The harem of Abdal Rahman III (912 - 961) in Cordoba (check out Spain for the slaughter of 3500 Jews in 1066) contained over 6,000 concubines! And the one in the Fatimid Palace in Cairo had twice as many . Male slaves were castrated. Have you noticed how pale the Arabs are? That is because they killed all of the offspring of black African slave women descent! Slavery was only abolished around 1960 in Saudi Arabia. 140 million Africans are estimated to have been enslaved by muslims over the centuries 80% of which died in transit to market. Muslims have been parasites for all of the centuries Islam has been around. Timure the lame made towers out of human skulls, of course he had them beheaded first in the morning so he could study the arts in the afternoon.
I have explained away only a small proportion of the deaths caused by Muslims you could possibly double the deaths by adding in invasions, oppression, starvation by high tax take and general disregard to other humans.

Hitler, Mao and Stalin would be in awe at the debauchery that the muslims have perpetrated on the western world since its conception by a man who went to caves had fits heard voices had an invisible jinn sit on his shoulder talking to him and him only telling him god has given him and him alone the right to kill maim slaughter rape steal and enslave all who chose not believe in that invisible piece of excrement called Allah.

Bertrand Russel said of Muslims “Arabic philosophy is not important as original thought. Men like Avicenna and Averroes are essentially commentators. Speaking generally, the views of the more scientific philosophers come from Aristotle and the Neo-Platonists in logic and metaphysics, from Galen in medicine, from Greek and Indian sources in mathematics and astronomy, and among mystics religious philosophy has also an admixture of old Persian beliefs. Writers in Arabic showed some originality in mathematics and in chemistry--in the latter case, as an incidental result of alchemical researches. Mohammedan civilization in its great days was admirable in the arts and in many technical ways, but it showed no capacity for independent speculation in theoretical matters”.

www.ntslibrary.com/PDF%20Books/History%20of%20Western%20Philosophy.pdf

It would take too long to list all the deaths at the hands of christians.
Its been happening for a lot longer then Muslims, and still continues to this day.
Just in the last century the US has been repsonsible for hundreds of millions of deaths.


I think the comparison would need to be of people killed for religious reasons, not in wars involving political/economic reasons.....for Christians vs Muslims.....other wise it loses all meaning...

What I am trying to say is that westerners always claim how evil Muslims are and that we would never stoop to that level.
But we supposedly good Christian nations have been responsible for millions of deaths for no more reason then money and power which basically sums up religion anyway.

No culture, religion or nation is immune from this crap and by constantly blaming and hating the other guy the cycle of killing is just going to continue.
From what I see in the world today we are already heading for a ww3 and the funny thing is people are going to want it.

Title: Re: Iteresting Islamic Fact
Post by falah on Jan 30th, 2012 at 11:01am

gizmo_2655 wrote on Jan 30th, 2012 at 10:17am:

bobbythefap1 wrote on Jan 30th, 2012 at 10:10am:

Adamant wrote on Jan 29th, 2012 at 9:07pm:

bobbythefap1 wrote on Jan 29th, 2012 at 3:40pm:

Adamant wrote on Jan 29th, 2012 at 3:29pm:

bobbythefap1 wrote on Jan 29th, 2012 at 3:23pm:
Following your logic we should just about ban every single religion including christianity.
They are all dangerous.


Define "LOGIC" regarding Religion
Well there is no logic in religion, but regarding religion you asked whether we should outlaw one because something bad happened in its name; which is the same for almost all mainstream religions.
Christian nations like the US and UK are easily the worst human rights offenders and murderers to this day but we don’t outlaw Christianity.

You are incorrect when you say Christianity has killed more people than islam. Muslims have killed over 80 million Hindus in its thirst for wealth and slaves. Islam was the biggest slave trading nation on the planet. It is estimated that 11 million African slaves were transported to the Americas, only 5 % of which went to the USA .Of all slaves captured by Muslims and sent to Islamic lands most were women and used for sexual gratification The harem of Abdal Rahman III (912 - 961) in Cordoba (check out Spain for the slaughter of 3500 Jews in 1066) contained over 6,000 concubines! And the one in the Fatimid Palace in Cairo had twice as many . Male slaves were castrated. Have you noticed how pale the Arabs are? That is because they killed all of the offspring of black African slave women descent! Slavery was only abolished around 1960 in Saudi Arabia. 140 million Africans are estimated to have been enslaved by muslims over the centuries 80% of which died in transit to market. Muslims have been parasites for all of the centuries Islam has been around. Timure the lame made towers out of human skulls, of course he had them beheaded first in the morning so he could study the arts in the afternoon.
I have explained away only a small proportion of the deaths caused by Muslims you could possibly double the deaths by adding in invasions, oppression, starvation by high tax take and general disregard to other humans.

Hitler, Mao and Stalin would be in awe at the debauchery that the muslims have perpetrated on the western world since its conception by a man who went to caves had fits heard voices had an invisible jinn sit on his shoulder talking to him and him only telling him god has given him and him alone the right to kill maim slaughter rape steal and enslave all who chose not believe in that invisible piece of excrement called Allah.

Bertrand Russel said of Muslims “Arabic philosophy is not important as original thought. Men like Avicenna and Averroes are essentially commentators. Speaking generally, the views of the more scientific philosophers come from Aristotle and the Neo-Platonists in logic and metaphysics, from Galen in medicine, from Greek and Indian sources in mathematics and astronomy, and among mystics religious philosophy has also an admixture of old Persian beliefs. Writers in Arabic showed some originality in mathematics and in chemistry--in the latter case, as an incidental result of alchemical researches. Mohammedan civilization in its great days was admirable in the arts and in many technical ways, but it showed no capacity for independent speculation in theoretical matters”.

www.ntslibrary.com/PDF%20Books/History%20of%20Western%20Philosophy.pdf

It would take too long to list all the deaths at the hands of christians.
Its been happening for a lot longer then Muslims, and still continues to this day.
Just in the last century the US has been repsonsible for hundreds of millions of deaths.


I think the comparison would need to be of people killed for religious reasons, not in wars involving political/economic reasons.....for Christians vs Muslims.....other wise it loses all meaning...


You mean like how Christians killed millions of Jews in the space of a couple of years less than 70 years ago?

The Crusades? Notably the killing of the entire population of Jerusalem.

The numerous Christian genocide of Jews throughout Europe in countires such as Germany, Poland, Russia.

In Christian England all the Jews were expelled in 1290 because they were practicing interest-based money lending (usury).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edict_of_Expulsion

The Spanish Inquisition.

Conquistidors in Americas

Conquistidors in Philipines

Conquistidors In India, notably the Portuguese in Goa.

Conquistidors in Malaysia (massacred the whole city of Malacca)

Portuguese Conquistidors in East Timor killed all Muslims who refused to convert to Christianity.

How do you think Christianity spread through Europe inm the first place? In the 4th century the Christian Roman government declared the death penalty for anyone who practiced paganism.

Title: Re: Iteresting Islamic Fact
Post by gizmo_2655 on Jan 30th, 2012 at 11:19am

falah wrote on Jan 30th, 2012 at 11:01am:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Jan 30th, 2012 at 10:17am:

bobbythefap1 wrote on Jan 30th, 2012 at 10:10am:

Adamant wrote on Jan 29th, 2012 at 9:07pm:

bobbythefap1 wrote on Jan 29th, 2012 at 3:40pm:

Adamant wrote on Jan 29th, 2012 at 3:29pm:

bobbythefap1 wrote on Jan 29th, 2012 at 3:23pm:
Following your logic we should just about ban every single religion including christianity.
They are all dangerous.


Define "LOGIC" regarding Religion
Well there is no logic in religion, but regarding religion you asked whether we should outlaw one because something bad happened in its name; which is the same for almost all mainstream religions.
Christian nations like the US and UK are easily the worst human rights offenders and murderers to this day but we don’t outlaw Christianity.

You are incorrect when you say Christianity has killed more people than islam. Muslims have killed over 80 million Hindus in its thirst for wealth and slaves. Islam was the biggest slave trading nation on the planet. It is estimated that 11 million African slaves were transported to the Americas, only 5 % of which went to the USA .Of all slaves captured by Muslims and sent to Islamic lands most were women and used for sexual gratification The harem of Abdal Rahman III (912 - 961) in Cordoba (check out Spain for the slaughter of 3500 Jews in 1066) contained over 6,000 concubines! And the one in the Fatimid Palace in Cairo had twice as many . Male slaves were castrated. Have you noticed how pale the Arabs are? That is because they killed all of the offspring of black African slave women descent! Slavery was only abolished around 1960 in Saudi Arabia. 140 million Africans are estimated to have been enslaved by muslims over the centuries 80% of which died in transit to market. Muslims have been parasites for all of the centuries Islam has been around. Timure the lame made towers out of human skulls, of course he had them beheaded first in the morning so he could study the arts in the afternoon.
I have explained away only a small proportion of the deaths caused by Muslims you could possibly double the deaths by adding in invasions, oppression, starvation by high tax take and general disregard to other humans.

Hitler, Mao and Stalin would be in awe at the debauchery that the muslims have perpetrated on the western world since its conception by a man who went to caves had fits heard voices had an invisible jinn sit on his shoulder talking to him and him only telling him god has given him and him alone the right to kill maim slaughter rape steal and enslave all who chose not believe in that invisible piece of excrement called Allah.

Bertrand Russel said of Muslims “Arabic philosophy is not important as original thought. Men like Avicenna and Averroes are essentially commentators. Speaking generally, the views of the more scientific philosophers come from Aristotle and the Neo-Platonists in logic and metaphysics, from Galen in medicine, from Greek and Indian sources in mathematics and astronomy, and among mystics religious philosophy has also an admixture of old Persian beliefs. Writers in Arabic showed some originality in mathematics and in chemistry--in the latter case, as an incidental result of alchemical researches. Mohammedan civilization in its great days was admirable in the arts and in many technical ways, but it showed no capacity for independent speculation in theoretical matters”.

www.ntslibrary.com/PDF%20Books/History%20of%20Western%20Philosophy.pdf

It would take too long to list all the deaths at the hands of christians.
Its been happening for a lot longer then Muslims, and still continues to this day.
Just in the last century the US has been repsonsible for hundreds of millions of deaths.


I think the comparison would need to be of people killed for religious reasons, not in wars involving political/economic reasons.....for Christians vs Muslims.....other wise it loses all meaning...


You mean like how Christians killed millions of Jews in the space of a couple of years less than 70 years ago?

The Crusades? Notably the killing of the entire population of Jerusalem.

The numerous Christian genocide of Jews throughout Europe in countires such as Germany, Poland, Russia.

In Christian England all the Jews were expelled in 1290 because they were practicing interest-based money lending (usury).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edict_of_Expulsion

The Spanish Inquisition.

Conquistidors in Americas

Conquistidors in Philipines

Conquistidors In India, notably the Portuguese in Goa.

Conquistidors in Malaysia (massacred the whole city of Malacca)

Portuguese Conquistidors in East Timor killed all Muslims who refused to convert to Christianity.

How do you think Christianity spread through Europe inm the first place? In the 4th century the Christian Roman government declared the death penalty for anyone who practiced paganism.


Well, no not the Conquistidors....they were mainly after money and exploration...Those come under the economic section...
But the Crusades, the various Inquisitions and the English expulsion and the European pograms on the Jews would classify...

Title: Re: Iteresting Islamic Fact
Post by Yadda on Jan 30th, 2012 at 11:50am

Soren wrote on Jan 30th, 2012 at 10:03am:
It was really bad, whatever the numbers.

There is no official estimate of the total death toll of Hindus at the hands of Islam. A first glance at important testimonies by Muslim chroniclers suggests that, over 13 centuries and a territory as vast as the Subcontinent, Muslim Holy Warriors easily killed more Hindus than the 6 million of the Holocaust. Ferishtha lists several occasions when the Bahmani sultans in central India (1347-1528) killed a hundred thousand Hindus, which they set as a minimum goal whenever they felt like "punishing" the Hindus; and they were only a third-rank provincial dynasty. The biggest slaughters took place during the raids of Mahmud Ghaznavi (ca. 1000 CE); during the actual conquest of North India by Mohammed Ghori and his lieutenants (1192 ff.); and under the Delhi Sultanate (1206-1526). The Moghuls (1526-1857), even Babar and Aurangzeb, were fairly restrained tyrants by comparison. Prof. K.S. Lal once estimated that the Indian population declined by 50 million under the Sultanate, but that would be hard to substantiate; research into the magnitude of the damage Islam did to India is yet to start in right earnest.
http://koenraadelst.bharatvani.org/articles/irin/genocide.html







Quote:

"......When Napoleon invaded Egypt, he discovered that the Muslim population knew nothing about Egypt before Islam. The 5,000-year-old culture of the Pharaohs had been annihilated. There are no Buddhists in Afghanistan. Baghdad was once home to the oldest community of Jews in the world, brought there as Babylonian captives. Today it is estimated that there are no more than a few dozen Jews left in Iraq. All cultures living within the borders of Islam are annihilated. People either leave, convert or die. Languages disappear to be replaced by Arabic. There are no exceptions over time."

AN ETHICAL BASIS FOR WAR
by Bill Warner



IMAGE....





IMAGE....



Title: Re: Iteresting Islamic Fact
Post by falah on Jan 30th, 2012 at 12:12pm

gizmo_2655 wrote on Jan 30th, 2012 at 11:19am:
Well, no not the Conquistidors....they were mainly after money and exploration...Those come under the economic section...

What was the initial motivation for the conquistidors? Why were they looking for the Spice islands in the East Indies?

If you read through the writings of the Portuguese at the time, as I did in preparation for my thesis, you will find that the motivation was religious.

The Portuguese said that they were looking for the Spice Islands so that they could cause economic harm to Muslims. Their plot was to destroy the economy of the Muslim world so that they could then take it over.

Title: Re: Iteresting Islamic Fact
Post by falah on Jan 30th, 2012 at 1:06pm

Yadda wrote on Jan 30th, 2012 at 11:50am:
"......When Napoleon invaded Egypt, he discovered that the Muslim population knew nothing about Egypt before Islam. The 5,000-year-old culture of the Pharaohs had been annihilated...


Yeah the Roman Empire banned paganism 300 years before Muslims arrived.




Yadda wrote on Jan 30th, 2012 at 11:50am:
There are no Buddhists in Afghanistan.


There are still jews in Afghanistan, perhaps most of the buddhists converted to Islam in the centuries prior to Genghis Khan.

The Buddhist religion survived the Islamic conquest of Afghanistan by the Umayyads and rule by the Abbasid Caliphate, but it was Ghenghis who finished them off:

http://books.google.com.au/books?id=TKUxyVCrYn0C&pg=PA25&dq=genghis+khan+destroyed+buddhism+afghanistan&hl=en&ei=kVx1TuXkJOj30gGWgq3BDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=genghis%20khan%20destroyed%20buddhism%20afghanistan&f=false





Yadda wrote on Jan 30th, 2012 at 11:50am:
Today it is estimated that there are no more than a few dozen Jews left in Iraq.


Not all that surprising considering that Mossad forced them to do aliya to Israel:

...The British embassy in Baghdad relayed to London its own assessment of the motives behind the attack: Activists of the Zionist movement wanted to highlight the danger for the Jews of Iraq, in order to spur the State of Israel to accelerate the pace of their immigration. At the time, there was serious debate in Israel on this issue and some wished to slow down the rate of emigration from Iraq. The British embassy's appraisal is quoted in a book by Esther Meir of Ben-Gurion University of the Negev. The embassy also offered a second possible explanation: The bombs were meant to influence well-off Jews in Iraq who wished to stay there, to get them to change their minds and come to Israel, too...

...the 1951 bombing barely rates a footnote, but in the history of immigration to Israel, it still has significance, some of it political - because the bombing at the synagogue fueled a whole host of rumors and accusations. Some claimed that it was carried out by Mossad agents, with the objective of frightening the Jews and encouraging them to move to Israel. This claim is also accepted by several Mizrahi scholars and activists, and is sometimes cited as one of the arguments against Zionism...

...Now, a recent publication is shedding new light on the mystery. The revelations come from Yehuda Tager, an Israeli agent who operated in Baghdad, was exposed and spent about 10 years in prison there. According to Tager...at least one activist from the Zionist underground, Yosef Beit-Halahmi, did apparently carry out several terror attacks...This is the first time someone involved in the episode is confirming that members of the Zionist underground did commit bombings in Baghdad....

http://web.archive.org/web/20080504154232/http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/objects/pages/PrintArticleEn.jhtml?itemNo=703367







Yadda wrote on Jan 30th, 2012 at 11:50am:
Languages disappear to be replaced by Arabic. There are no exceptions over time."


You mean like how Celtic, Aboriginal, and native American languages were replaced by English? Stupid argument really considering that their are millions of people in the Middle East that speak non-Arabic languages like Kurdish, Tamazight, Assyrian, Somali, Tigrinya, Aramaic, Pulaar, Soninke, Tuareg, and French. Kurdish is even an official language in Iraq, while Tamazight is an official language in Morocco.

Title: Re: Iteresting Islamic Fact
Post by falah on Jan 30th, 2012 at 1:26pm
How Israeli & British Meddling Resulted In The Emigration Of jews From Iraq

On 27 April 1950 a man whose passport identified him as Richard Armstrong flew from Amsterdam to Baghdad. He came as a representative of Near East Air Transport, an American charter company seeking to win a contract with Iraq’s prime minister, Tawfiq al-Suwaida, to fly Iraqi Jews to Cyprus. Only six weeks earlier, the Iraqi government had passed the Denaturalisation Act, which allowed Jews to emigrate provided they renounced their citizenship, and gave them a year to decide whether to do so. Al-Suwaida expected that between seven and ten thousand Jews would leave out of a community of about 125,000, but a mysterious bombing in Baghdad on the last day of Passover, near a café frequented by Jews, caused panic, and the numbers registering soon outstripped his estimate...

...For Richard Armstrong and NEAT, the uprooting of the Middle East’s most ancient Jewish community was not a mere business transaction: it was a mission. Armstrong was really Shlomo (né Selim) Hillel, an Iraqi-born Mossad agent; NEAT was secretly owned by the Jewish Agency; and Israel, not Cyprus, was the refugees’ ultimate destination. It’s unlikely that al-Suwaida and the minister of the interior, Saleh Jabr, were fooled. Hillel claimed to be the ‘swarthy-skinned son’ of a British colonial official who’d worked in India, but he didn’t look much like an Armstrong. And he’d been arrested a few years earlier in Baghdad, where, under the alias Fuad Salah, he’d been training Zionist militants in attics and cellars. But if the Iraqis knew who he was, they didn’t call his bluff: they owned shares in the tourism agency in Baghdad through which NEAT had chosen to operate, and stood to benefit from the deal. ‘We parted on the most cordial terms,’ Hillel remembered in his memoir, Operation Babylon. By the end of 1952, almost all of Iraq’s Jews had fled, in what Mossad called Operation Ezekiel and Nehemiah...

...The exodus of Mesopotamia’s Jews...would have seemed unthinkable at the beginning of the 20th century. As Violette Shamash writes, Babylon was the home of ‘our patriarch Abraham Abinou’; the place where the Talmud was written and Jewish law codified. And if distant memories weren’t enough to bind Jews to their ancestral home, something more tangible did: security and the promise of a good life. Of all the Jewish communities in the Middle East, the Mesopotamian Jews were the most integrated, the most Arabised, the most prosperous. Not only had they freely practised their faith under the Ottomans, they had become the country’s most powerful economic group. And there was hardly an area of Mesopotamian culture on which Jews had not left their imprint, from the style of music performed in Baghdad’s cafés to the wafting amba, a mango pickle that Baghdadi Jews working in India brought home with them.

Recent polemics – and pro-Israeli websites – have made much of the indignities of Jewish life under Ottoman rule, seeking to expose the ‘myth’ of Muslim tolerance. This tolerance, it’s argued, is a euphemism for dependence on the goodwill of capricious, if not cruel Muslim overlords. The memoirs of Iraqi Jews, however, tell a very different story: Shamash, who was born in 1912 and spent the last twenty years of her life recording her memories of ‘my Baghdad, my native land’, is not alone in describing her family’s life before the arrival of British troops in World War One as ‘paradise’. Memories of Eden provides as sumptuous an account of the world of the Baghdadi Jewish elite as we’re likely to get. It’s a portrait of the city as seen from inside a qasr, the palace her merchant father built on the banks of the Tigris, facing what is now the Green Zone. Shamash’s extended family lived in the qasr’s separate wings, connected by maslak, ground-floor corridors. The fragrance of walnut and apricot trees pervaded the garden; kebabs were grilled in a tanoor...Muslim healers were consulted when children fell sick...‘All the communities lived together peaceably, teasing each other good-naturedly and without inhibition about their religion,’...

...they [Jews] were mostly left to look after their own affairs, and further advance seemed inevitable. The vast majority lived in cities, apart from a handful of Kurdish Jews. As bankers, traders and money-lenders the wealthier members of the community had made themselves indispensable: so much so that Baghdad’s markets shut down on the Jewish Sabbath, rather than the Muslim day of rest. By the 19th century, Baghdad was famous for its Jewish dynasties – the Sassoons, the Abrahams, the Ezras, the Kadouries – with their empires in finance and imports (cotton, tobacco, silk, tea, opium) that stretched all the way to Manchester, Bombay, Calcutta, Singapore, Rangoon, Shanghai and Hong Kong.

When Balfour announced Britain’s support for the creation of a Jewish homeland in Palestine, leaving Mesopotamia for the kibbutz was the furthest thing from the minds of Baghdad’s Jews. ‘The announcement aroused no interest in Mesopotamia, nor did it leave a ripple on the surface of local political thought in Baghdad,’ Arnold Wilson, the civil commissioner in Baghdad, reported to the Foreign Office after a meeting with a group of Iraqi Jewish notables. Palestine, they had said, ‘is a poor country and Jerusalem a bad town to live in’:


Quote:
Compared with Palestine, Mesopotamia was paradise. This is the Garden of Eden, said one; it is from this country that Adam was driven forth...For us Mesopotamia is a home, a national home to which the Jews of Bombay and Persia and Turkey will be glad to come.


Baghdad’s Jews failed to grasp that the rules of the Ottoman game, with its special protections for non-Muslim minorities, no longer applied in the British-ruled provinces of Baghdad, Basra and Mosul, where a mandate was established in 1919...

...The Jewish population grew more receptive to the overtures of Mossad, which had become increasingly active in Iraq since the Golden Square took power, some agents entering the country as volunteers with the British army during the 1941 invasion. Mossad’s objective was not to improve the position of the Jews in Iraq, but to hasten their departure. Pamphlets appeared discouraging Jews from mixing with Arabs, and arguing that any attempt to do so ‘leads to butchery’.

The Israeli government circulated stories about Iraqi ‘pogroms’ and ‘concentration camps’ and denounced the hanging of seven Jews charged with Zionist activism in March 1949 – executions that Mossad’s own agents in Baghdad insisted had never occurred. Unless Iraqi Jews were allowed to emigrate, Israel warned, it would back armed resistance to al-Said’s government, or find itself unable to prevent Iraqi Jews already in Israel from killing Palestinians in revenge. The Israelis also began to promote the idea of a ‘sorting out’ of populations, involving a swap of Iraqi Jews for an equal number of Palestinian refugees, an idea quietly encouraged by the Foreign Office: ‘National exuberance is a phenomenon which is going to last a long time in the Middle East. On the whole, elimination of awkward minorities is likely to cool rather than fan the flames.’ If Israel was a sanctuary for Iraq’s Jews, it was also among the reasons they were in such desperate need of one.

By 1950, thousands of Jews had fled; many crossed into Iran on horseback with the help of Arab and Kurdish smugglers. Embarrassed by this ‘wildcat immigration’, the Iraqi Chamber of Deputies decided to take matters into its own hands with the Denaturalisation Law of 4 March 1950. The US Embassy in Baghdad agreed with Tawfiq al-Suwaida that mass emigration was unlikely, so long as Israel ‘pursues a policy of moderation and agrees to a peace settlement considered not too unreasonable by the Arabs’.But the ‘ingathering of the exiles’, not a peace settlement, was Israel’s goal,  for strategic as much as sentimental reasons. Israel had conquered 20 per cent more territory than it had been allotted under the partition agreement, and it needed more Jews to settle the land, particularly along the border. As Kedourie bitterly remarked, Israel ‘set out to help the Iraqi government to achieve its national unity; it was one of these tacit, monstrous complicities not entirely unknown to history.’ The Foreign Office learned of the agreement between al-Suwaida and ‘Richard Armstrong’ of Near East Air Transport through its channels in Tel Aviv, not Baghdad.

‘Why didn’t someone come to see us instead of negotiating with Israel to take in Iraqi Jews?’ the chief rabbi of Baghdad, Sasson Khedourie, wondered. ‘Why didn’t someone point out that the solid, responsible leadership of Iraqi Jews believed this to be their country – in good times and bad – and we were convinced the trouble would pass?’ Iraq’s Jews, who had tended to wait for trouble to pass, had to be pushed into leaving. And pushed they were, in a series of attacks which began with the Abu Nawas bombing in April 1950 and resumed in 1951, as the deadline to register to leave Iraq approached. It’s long been rumoured – and many Iraqi Jews fiercely believe it – that Israeli agents orchestrated these bombings in order to drive the Jews to emigrate...

By 8 March, when the deadline was due to expire, more than one hundred thousand Jews had registered...

...Somekh flew to Israel on 21 March 1951 with two hundred other Jews. Their ‘exile’ had ended, but he ‘saw no one kneeling down to kiss the sacred ground’. Before they could leave the plane, passengers were told to remain seated while a man sprayed them with DDT...

http://www.lrb.co.uk/v30/n21/adam-shatz/leaving-paradise

Title: Re: Iteresting Islamic Fact
Post by falah on Jan 30th, 2012 at 1:31pm
Israeli mossad Bombings In Iraq To Encourage Jewish Emigration To Israel

*On March 19, 1950, a bomb exploded in the American Cultural Center and Library wounding some of the Jewish intellectuals using the facilities.

*In April, 1950, a bomb was thrown into El-Dar El-Bida Coffee shop in Baghdad. Four Jews were injured in the blast.

*On May 10, 1950, a grenade was thrown at Beit-Lawi Automobile company building, a company with Jewish ownership.

*On June 3, 1950, a grenade exploded in El-Batawin, then a Jewish area of Baghdad.

*On June 5, 1950, a bomb went off next to the Jewish Stanley Sashua building on El Rasjid Street.

*On January 14, 1951, a grenade damaged a high-voltage cable outside Masouda Shem-Tov Synagogue. Depending on different accounts, three, or four Jews were killed, including a 12-year old boy, and ten were wounded.

*In March, 1951, the US legation's information office was attacked.

*In May, 1951, a Jewish home was attacked

*In June 1951, a Jewish shop was attacked

Title: Re: Iteresting Islamic Fact
Post by gizmo_2655 on Jan 30th, 2012 at 1:44pm

falah wrote on Jan 30th, 2012 at 12:12pm:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Jan 30th, 2012 at 11:19am:
Well, no not the Conquistidors....they were mainly after money and exploration...Those come under the economic section...

What was the initial motivation for the conquistidors? Why were they looking for the Spice islands in the East Indies?

If you read through the writings of the Portuguese at the time, as I did in preparation for my thesis, you will find that the motivation was religious.

The Portuguese said that they were looking for the Spice Islands so that they could cause economic harm to Muslims. Their plot was to destroy the economy of the Muslim world so that they could then take it over.


Yes, economic harm....The Muslims were a competing cultural and economic empire at the time...
They weren't out to erase the religion per se.....they wanted to break the military and cultural power of the Caliphate, and the best way to do it was to destroy the trade monopoly on spices...
After all, they behaved in much the same way against France and England...

Title: Re: Iteresting Islamic Fact
Post by falah on Jan 30th, 2012 at 2:43pm

gizmo_2655 wrote on Jan 30th, 2012 at 1:44pm:

falah wrote on Jan 30th, 2012 at 12:12pm:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Jan 30th, 2012 at 11:19am:
Well, no not the Conquistidors....they were mainly after money and exploration...Those come under the economic section...

What was the initial motivation for the conquistidors? Why were they looking for the Spice islands in the East Indies?

If you read through the writings of the Portuguese at the time, as I did in preparation for my thesis, you will find that the motivation was religious.

The Portuguese said that they were looking for the Spice Islands so that they could cause economic harm to Muslims. Their plot was to destroy the economy of the Muslim world so that they could then take it over.


Yes, economic harm....The Muslims were a competing cultural and economic empire at the time...
They weren't out to erase the religion per se.....


Obviously you are not familiar with Portuguese literature of the 15th 16th century.

According to their own writings at the time, they were out to destroy Islam. They even had plans to dig up Prophet Muhammed's bones in Mecca (because they didn't realise he was actually buried in Madina). Their plan to attack Mecca was foiled when they found the Egyptian navy in the Red Sea was too strong.

Title: Re: Iteresting Islamic Fact
Post by gizmo_2655 on Jan 30th, 2012 at 3:57pm

falah wrote on Jan 30th, 2012 at 2:43pm:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Jan 30th, 2012 at 1:44pm:

falah wrote on Jan 30th, 2012 at 12:12pm:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Jan 30th, 2012 at 11:19am:
Well, no not the Conquistidors....they were mainly after money and exploration...Those come under the economic section...

What was the initial motivation for the conquistidors? Why were they looking for the Spice islands in the East Indies?

If you read through the writings of the Portuguese at the time, as I did in preparation for my thesis, you will find that the motivation was religious.

The Portuguese said that they were looking for the Spice Islands so that they could cause economic harm to Muslims. Their plot was to destroy the economy of the Muslim world so that they could then take it over.


Yes, economic harm....The Muslims were a competing cultural and economic empire at the time...
They weren't out to erase the religion per se.....


Obviously you are not familiar with Portuguese literature of the 15th 16th century.

According to their own writings at the time, they were out to destroy Islam. They even had plans to dig up Prophet Muhammed's bones in Mecca (because they didn't realise he was actually buried in Madina). Their plan to attack Mecca was foiled when they found the Egyptian navy in the Red Sea was too strong.


You don't think that had anything to do with Islamic (Moorish) rule of the country over the preceding 700 years???

Title: Re: Iteresting Islamic Fact
Post by falah on Jan 30th, 2012 at 5:02pm

gizmo_2655 wrote on Jan 30th, 2012 at 3:57pm:

falah wrote on Jan 30th, 2012 at 2:43pm:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Jan 30th, 2012 at 1:44pm:

falah wrote on Jan 30th, 2012 at 12:12pm:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Jan 30th, 2012 at 11:19am:
Well, no not the Conquistidors....they were mainly after money and exploration...Those come under the economic section...

What was the initial motivation for the conquistidors? Why were they looking for the Spice islands in the East Indies?

If you read through the writings of the Portuguese at the time, as I did in preparation for my thesis, you will find that the motivation was religious.

The Portuguese said that they were looking for the Spice Islands so that they could cause economic harm to Muslims. Their plot was to destroy the economy of the Muslim world so that they could then take it over.


Yes, economic harm....The Muslims were a competing cultural and economic empire at the time...
They weren't out to erase the religion per se.....


Obviously you are not familiar with Portuguese literature of the 15th 16th century.

According to their own writings at the time, they were out to destroy Islam. They even had plans to dig up Prophet Muhammed's bones in Mecca (because they didn't realise he was actually buried in Madina). Their plan to attack Mecca was foiled when they found the Egyptian navy in the Red Sea was too strong.


You don't think that had anything to do with Islamic (Moorish) rule of the country over the preceding 700 years???

No, because Muslims allowed Christians (and jews) to live peacfully in Spain/Portugal (unlike the Christians who genocided anyone who didn't want to be Christian in something called the Inquisition) Muslims weren't out to destroy Christianity or Judaism or dig up the bones of Moses or Paul or and doing dumb stuff like that.

Title: Re: Iteresting Islamic Fact
Post by gizmo_2655 on Jan 30th, 2012 at 5:51pm

falah wrote on Jan 30th, 2012 at 5:02pm:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Jan 30th, 2012 at 3:57pm:

falah wrote on Jan 30th, 2012 at 2:43pm:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Jan 30th, 2012 at 1:44pm:

falah wrote on Jan 30th, 2012 at 12:12pm:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Jan 30th, 2012 at 11:19am:
Well, no not the Conquistidors....they were mainly after money and exploration...Those come under the economic section...

What was the initial motivation for the conquistidors? Why were they looking for the Spice islands in the East Indies?

If you read through the writings of the Portuguese at the time, as I did in preparation for my thesis, you will find that the motivation was religious.

The Portuguese said that they were looking for the Spice Islands so that they could cause economic harm to Muslims. Their plot was to destroy the economy of the Muslim world so that they could then take it over.


Yes, economic harm....The Muslims were a competing cultural and economic empire at the time...
They weren't out to erase the religion per se.....


Obviously you are not familiar with Portuguese literature of the 15th 16th century.

According to their own writings at the time, they were out to destroy Islam. They even had plans to dig up Prophet Muhammed's bones in Mecca (because they didn't realise he was actually buried in Madina). Their plan to attack Mecca was foiled when they found the Egyptian navy in the Red Sea was too strong.


You don't think that had anything to do with Islamic (Moorish) rule of the country over the preceding 700 years???

No, because Muslims allowed Christians (and jews) to live peacfully in Spain/Portugal (unlike the Christians who genocided anyone who didn't want to be Christian in something called the Inquisition) Muslims weren't out to destroy Christianity or Judaism or dig up the bones of Moses or Paul or and doing dumb stuff like that.


Fair enough...but it's not at all unusual for a people who've just tossed out a foreign ruling country to be a bit vindictive....

However, at various times in history, the Islamic empires have forced Jews to convert to Islam.
None of the groups have clean hands in that respect...(except possibly Judaism)...

Title: Re: Iteresting Islamic Fact
Post by falah on Jan 30th, 2012 at 6:28pm

gizmo_2655 wrote on Jan 30th, 2012 at 5:51pm:
However, at various times in history, the Islamic empires have forced Jews to convert to Islam.
None of the groups have clean hands in that respect...(except possibly Judaism)...

Not something that I have ever heard of. Islamic law forbids it, and no scholar of Islam would OK it.

In shi-ite countries people have been forced to convert to shi-itism. But the shi-ites do not follow conventional Islamic law.

Title: Re: Iteresting Islamic Fact
Post by abu_rashid on Jan 30th, 2012 at 8:20pm

gizmo_2655 wrote on Jan 30th, 2012 at 5:51pm:
it's not at all unusual for a people who've just tossed out a foreign ruling country to be a bit vindictive....


"Foreign ruling country"??? What on earth are you on about? Muslims had ruled al-Andalus for about 700 years when they were finally exiled from there. If Aboriginals kicked your descendants out in about another 500 years (ie. in about the year 2488), do you think it'd still be right to say they were tossing out a "foreign ruling country"???

Come on, put it into perspective here.


gizmo_2655 wrote on Jan 30th, 2012 at 5:51pm:
However, at various times in history, the Islamic empires have forced Jews to convert to Islam.
None of the groups have clean hands in that respect...(except possibly Judaism)...


Jews have forced non-Jews to convert at various times. In fact Nabataean Arabs were forced to convert to Judaism around about 2000 years ago, when the Jews conquered parts of their kingdom.

Can you detail for us exactly when and where Muslims supposedly forced Jews to convert to Islam?

Title: Re: Iteresting Islamic Fact
Post by freediver on Jan 30th, 2012 at 10:10pm

Quote:
"Foreign ruling country"??? What on earth are you on about? Muslims had ruled al-Andalus for about 700 years when they were finally exiled from there. If Aboriginals kicked your descendants out in about another 500 years (ie. in about the year 2488), do you think it'd still be right to say they were tossing out a "foreign ruling country"???


Abu can you explain why you think the Iberian peninsula still 'belongs' to Muslims and they should recapture it?

Title: Re: Iteresting Islamic Fact
Post by abu_rashid on Jan 30th, 2012 at 10:38pm
Can you first explain to me why you think it's valid for Jews to re-capture Palestine after 2000 years?

Title: Re: Iteresting Islamic Fact
Post by freediver on Jan 30th, 2012 at 10:43pm
I thought the west set up Israel. I don't really see it as valid. It is history. I don't see the point in trying to validate or invalidate it. It is far better to learn from it.

Can you explain why you think the Iberian peninsula still 'belongs' to Muslims and they should recapture it?

Title: Re: Iteresting Islamic Fact
Post by abu_rashid on Jan 30th, 2012 at 11:09pm
Well just wait till Andalus is back in Muslim hands, and then you can show the same kind of apathy.

No point worrying about something you're just going to accept anyway, right?

Title: Re: Iteresting Islamic Fact
Post by freediver on Jan 30th, 2012 at 11:25pm
I am still interested in your reasoning, especially given the other things you have posted here.

Title: Re: Iteresting Islamic Fact
Post by gizmo_2655 on Jan 30th, 2012 at 11:35pm

abu_rashid wrote on Jan 30th, 2012 at 8:20pm:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Jan 30th, 2012 at 5:51pm:
it's not at all unusual for a people who've just tossed out a foreign ruling country to be a bit vindictive....


"Foreign ruling country"??? What on earth are you on about? Muslims had ruled al-Andalus for about 700 years when they were finally exiled from there. If Aboriginals kicked your descendants out in about another 500 years (ie. in about the year 2488), do you think it'd still be right to say they were tossing out a "foreign ruling country"???

Come on, put it into perspective here.


gizmo_2655 wrote on Jan 30th, 2012 at 5:51pm:
However, at various times in history, the Islamic empires have forced Jews to convert to Islam.
None of the groups have clean hands in that respect...(except possibly Judaism)...


Jews have forced non-Jews to convert at various times. In fact Nabataean Arabs were forced to convert to Judaism around about 2000 years ago, when the Jews conquered parts of their kingdom.

Can you detail for us exactly when and where Muslims supposedly forced Jews to convert to Islam?


The Moors, who conquered the Iberian Pensula around 711AD were North African Berbers, who sailed out of Morocco...And the capital of the Umayyad Caliphate was Damascus...So they were a foreign country, ruling over Iberian...

Precisely the same way the Romans had done before them, and the French, English, Dutch, Spanish etc have done since...

In 1656, all Jews were expelled from Isfahan because of the common belief of their impurity and forced to convert to Islam. However, as it became known that the converts continued to practice Judaism in secret and because the treasury suffered from the loss of jizya collected from the Jews, in 1661 they were allowed to revert to Judaism, but were still required to wear a distinctive patch upon their clothings.

Confined to city quarters, the Bukharan Jews were denied basic rights and many were forced to convert to Islam. They had to wear black and yellow dress to distinguish themselves from the Muslims.

Under the Zaydi rule, the Yemenite Jews were considered to be impure, and therefore forbidden to touch a Muslim or a Muslim's food. They were obligated to humble themselves before a Muslim, to walk to the left side, and greet him first. They could not build houses higher than a Muslim's or ride a camel or horse, and when riding on a mule or a donkey, they had to sit sideways. Upon entering the Muslim quarter a Jew had to take off his foot-gear and walk barefoot. If attacked with stones or fists by Islamic youth, a Jew was not allowed to defend himself. In such situations he had the option of fleeing or seeking intervention by a merciful Muslim passerby.

Title: Re: Iteresting Islamic Fact
Post by freediver on Jan 31st, 2012 at 8:30am
Sounds a lot like Nazism.

Title: Re: Iteresting Islamic Fact
Post by Baronvonrort on Jan 31st, 2012 at 12:17pm

abu_rashid wrote on Jan 30th, 2012 at 8:20pm:
Can you detail for us exactly when and where Muslims supposedly forced Jews to convert to Islam?


We could just look at Mohammad's wives.

Juwariya bint al Harith-
Sahih Muslim book 19 number 4292 and Sahih Bukhari vol 3 book 46 number 717
"The messenger of Allah made a raid upon the Banu Mustaliq while they were unaware and their cattle were having a drink at the water,He killed those who fought and imprisoned others.On that very day he captured Juwariya"

Thats right Mo launched a surprise attack and killed any man who fought,and they took the women and children as "war booty".
Nice strategy in finding a wife eh Abu,way more efficient than mine.
She was a jew who became a muslim after she was "captured" according to Islamic texts.

Safiyya bint Huyayy
She was another war captive,a 17 year old married jewish girl captured from the Banu Nadir tribe.
Sahih Bukhari vol 2 book 14 number 68 covers this.


Rayhana bint Amr ibn Khunafa
This was another  "captured" jewish woman from the Banu Qurayza.
What is it with Mo and captured Jewish women Abu?
There are conflicting stories over this one,some say she embraced Islam others say she remained a slave.


Title: Re: Iteresting Islamic Fact
Post by falah on Jan 31st, 2012 at 6:12pm

gizmo_2655 wrote on Jan 30th, 2012 at 11:35pm:
In 1656, all Jews were expelled from Isfahan because of the common belief of their impurity and forced to convert to Islam. However, as it became known that the converts continued to practice Judaism in secret and because the treasury suffered from the loss of jizya collected from the Jews, in 1661 they were allowed to revert to Judaism, but were still required to wear a distinctive patch upon their clothings...


...Under the Zaydi rule, the Yemenite Jews were considered to be impure, and therefore forbidden to touch a Muslim or a Muslim's food. They were obligated to humble themselves before a Muslim, to walk to the left side, and greet him first. They could not build houses higher than a Muslim's or ride a camel or horse, and when riding on a mule or a donkey, they had to sit sideways. Upon entering the Muslim quarter a Jew had to take off his foot-gear and walk barefoot. If attacked with stones or fists by Islamic youth, a Jew was not allowed to defend himself. In such situations he had the option of fleeing or seeking intervention by a merciful Muslim passerby.


You are giving examples of Shi-ite Governments. Any of Muslim governments?

Isfahan is Shi-ite, the Zaidis in Yemen are Shi-ite too.

Title: Re: Iteresting Islamic Fact
Post by gizmo_2655 on Jan 31st, 2012 at 6:34pm

falah wrote on Jan 31st, 2012 at 6:12pm:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Jan 30th, 2012 at 11:35pm:
In 1656, all Jews were expelled from Isfahan because of the common belief of their impurity and forced to convert to Islam. However, as it became known that the converts continued to practice Judaism in secret and because the treasury suffered from the loss of jizya collected from the Jews, in 1661 they were allowed to revert to Judaism, but were still required to wear a distinctive patch upon their clothings...


...Under the Zaydi rule, the Yemenite Jews were considered to be impure, and therefore forbidden to touch a Muslim or a Muslim's food. They were obligated to humble themselves before a Muslim, to walk to the left side, and greet him first. They could not build houses higher than a Muslim's or ride a camel or horse, and when riding on a mule or a donkey, they had to sit sideways. Upon entering the Muslim quarter a Jew had to take off his foot-gear and walk barefoot. If attacked with stones or fists by Islamic youth, a Jew was not allowed to defend himself. In such situations he had the option of fleeing or seeking intervention by a merciful Muslim passerby.


You are giving examples of Shiite Governments. Any of Muslim governments?

Isfahan is Shiite, the Zaidis in Yemen are Shiite too.


Shiite is a Muslim sect....So a Caliphate following Shiite Islam is still an Islamic government...

The same way that Catholic and Presbyterian are BOTH Chrisitian religions....

Title: Re: Iteresting Islamic Fact
Post by freediver on Jan 31st, 2012 at 7:36pm
Falah what would you do with the Shites if you were in charge?

Title: Re: Iteresting Islamic Fact
Post by falah on Jan 31st, 2012 at 8:58pm

gizmo_2655 wrote on Jan 31st, 2012 at 6:34pm:
Shiite is a Muslim sect....So a Caliphate following Shiite Islam is still an Islamic government...

The same way that Catholic and Presbyterian are BOTH Chrisitian religions....


The Twelver Shi-ites of Iran and the Alawis of Syria are not muslim, but are to Islam a bit like how the Mormons or Moonies are to Christianity.

About 90% of Shi-ites belong to the Twelvers or Alawis.

There are some Shi-ites like the Zaydis in Yemen which are considered Muslim, but they are very small in number.

Although the Zaydis are Muslim, they are considered deviant by most Muslims.

Shi-ites number about 100 million.

Muslims number about 1 billion.

Title: Re: Iteresting Islamic Fact
Post by freediver on Jan 31st, 2012 at 9:00pm
So what would you do with the them if you were in charge? Are they apostates?

Title: Re: Iteresting Islamic Fact
Post by falah on Jan 31st, 2012 at 9:06pm

freediver wrote on Jan 31st, 2012 at 9:00pm:
So what would you do with the them if you were in charge?

In charge of what?

Title: Re: Iteresting Islamic Fact
Post by freediver on Jan 31st, 2012 at 9:09pm
The Caliphate. Whatever. Perhaps I need to rephrase the question so as not to confuse you.

What is the propert Islamic way to handle them?

Title: Re: Iteresting Islamic Fact
Post by falah on Feb 2nd, 2012 at 10:30am

freediver wrote on Jan 31st, 2012 at 9:09pm:
The Caliphate. Whatever. Perhaps I need to rephrase the question so as not to confuse you.

What is the propert Islamic way to handle them?


Probably the overwhelming majority of Shi-ites are ignorant of the aspects of their religion that take them out of Islam. Therefore, they are technically considered Muslim. If they do not practice or understand what their leaders tell them then they are Muslims and should be treated as such.

The Shi-ite leadership, however, say things which take them from outside of Islam. Those who believe in what the Shi-ite Twelver leaders teach, are not Muslim.

Abu Rashid has written extensively on the issue of how traitors are treated in various countries such as, (but not limited to) the US. Although, I am not sure that he has mentioned how apostates in Islam are given an opportunity to repent and rejoin the Muslim community..

There is a good case for the death penalty for the Shi-ite leaders who have killed and persecuted Muslims. Just as there is a good case for the death penalty for George Bush, Benjamin Netanhayu, Tony Blair or John Howard - I am advocating for a retrospective change of laws that will allow war criminals like Howard to be executed.



Title: Re: Iteresting Islamic Fact
Post by freediver on Feb 2nd, 2012 at 7:30pm

Quote:
Abu Rashid has written extensively on the issue of how traitors are treated


Not to my knowledge. Or at least, he has not said much about how Shites should be treated under Islam. He tends to answer every question about apostasy in Islam with 'McCarthy executed a few traitors'. The closest he came to a straight answer on Shites was a few years back when the topic came up. He responded by accusing the questioner of trying to stir up trouble between him and Malik - the other mod on this forum who must have been a Shite. Since then, nothing.


Quote:
Although, I am not sure that he has mentioned how apostates in Islam are given an opportunity to repent and rejoin the Muslim community..


Not that either, as that might prompt the question - what if they do not repent? Abu likes to avoid giving people answers that might trouble them. He is very considerate like that.

Forgive me in advance for trying to read between the lines, as I am still getting used to the subtle way that Muslims refer to slaughtering fellow Muslims. Is this a correct interpretation of your post:

Shites are mostly just ignorant Muslims. They should be given an opportunity to stop being Shites. Then all is forgiven. Those who do not accept the opportunity given to them to repent and adopt the one true faith should be stoned to death.

?


Quote:
I am advocating for a retrospective change of laws that will allow war criminals like Howard to be executed.


That's nice. How far down the 'chain of command' would you go? Would you include militray officials? Would you include all the MPs who voted with the PM, or just the PM? You realise that the PM is only the PM for as long as the majority of MPs keep him there? Every decision by the government is effectively a decision by a majority of MPs (ie the sitting MPs of the ruling party).

Title: Re: Iteresting Islamic Fact
Post by abu_rashid on Feb 3rd, 2012 at 5:47am

gizmo_2655 wrote on Jan 30th, 2012 at 11:35pm:
...Under the Zaydi rule, the Yemenite Jews were considered to be impure, and therefore forbidden to touch a Muslim or a Muslim's food.


Just out of interest do you know the Jewish rules regarding defilement of wine?

I'll summarise for you just in case.

If a Jew is unlucky enough to live in the same building as a Gentile, and the wine is stored in a common area of the building that the Gentile has access to, and the Gentile comes home before the Jew, then the wine is instantly considered defiled and must be tipped out.

Title: Re: Iteresting Islamic Fact
Post by abu_rashid on Feb 3rd, 2012 at 5:49am
fd you can't remain on topic can you?

As falah clearly showed the examples of Shi'a government have no relevance, you can't help but try to divert the topic onto some nonsense about apostasy, as you always do.

Title: Re: Iteresting Islamic Fact
Post by freediver on Feb 3rd, 2012 at 8:23am
Oi Vey. The lengths I have to go to to get a straight answer on Shites and apostasy.

Title: Re: Iteresting Islamic Fact
Post by Lestat on Feb 3rd, 2012 at 8:42am

freediver wrote on Feb 3rd, 2012 at 8:23am:
Oi Vey. The lengths I have to go to to get a straight answer on Shites and apostasy.


lol...you still flogging this dead horse? What a loser....

Title: Re: Iteresting Islamic Fact
Post by adamant on Feb 3rd, 2012 at 9:07am

abu_rashid wrote on Feb 3rd, 2012 at 5:49am:
fd you can't remain on topic can you?


Yes lets get back on topic the question was Abu should we ban the cult of Islam in Australia before muslims start blowing us up because they can't get their own way here.

In answer to your question (which was off topic) go visit the following.

www.danielpipes.org/comments/30022

Ouch bet you do not like him.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Hindus#During_Islamic_rule_of_the_Indian_sub-continent

http://koenraadelst.bharatvani.org/articles/irin/genocide.html

www.politicalislam.com/tears/pages/tears-of-jihad/

voiceofdharma.org/books/tlmr/

I do so like the last one as it was written by a muslim its so peaceful the way they converted an entire district.

www.kashmir-information.com/Miscellaneous/Persecution.html

Title: Re: Iteresting Islamic Fact
Post by falah on Feb 3rd, 2012 at 7:04pm

Adamant wrote on Feb 3rd, 2012 at 9:07am:

abu_rashid wrote on Feb 3rd, 2012 at 5:49am:
fd you can't remain on topic can you?


Yes lets get back on topic the question was Abu should we ban the cult of Islam in Australia before muslims start blowing us up because they can't get their own way here.


The only Australians blowing people up are the predominantly Christian Australian Army in Afghanistan, ordered to kill people by the predominantly Christian Labor and Liberal Governments.

Title: Re: Iteresting Islamic Fact
Post by freediver on Feb 3rd, 2012 at 7:16pm

falah wrote on Feb 2nd, 2012 at 10:30am:
There is a good case for the death penalty for the Shi-ite leaders who have killed and persecuted Muslims. Just as there is a good case for the death penalty for George Bush, Benjamin Netanhayu, Tony Blair or John Howard - I am advocating for a retrospective change of laws that will allow war criminals like Howard to be executed.



How far down the 'chain of command' would you go? Would you include militray officials? Would you include all the MPs who voted with the PM, or just the PM? You realise that the PM is only the PM for as long as the majority of MPs keep him there? Every decision by the government is effectively a decision by a majority of MPs (ie the sitting MPs of the ruling party).

Title: Re: Iteresting Islamic Fact
Post by falah on Feb 3rd, 2012 at 7:27pm

freediver wrote on Feb 3rd, 2012 at 7:16pm:

falah wrote on Feb 2nd, 2012 at 10:30am:
There is a good case for the death penalty for the Shi-ite leaders who have killed and persecuted Muslims. Just as there is a good case for the death penalty for George Bush, Benjamin Netanhayu, Tony Blair or John Howard - I am advocating for a retrospective change of laws that will allow war criminals like Howard to be executed.



How far down the 'chain of command' would you go? Would you include militray officials? Would you include all the MPs who voted with the PM, or just the PM? You realise that the PM is only the PM for as long as the majority of MPs keep him there? Every decision by the government is effectively a decision by a majority of MPs (ie the sitting MPs of the ruling party).



So perhaps the MP who supported Australia's invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq should all be tried for war crimes?

Title: Re: Iteresting Islamic Fact
Post by Yadda on Feb 3rd, 2012 at 8:07pm

falah wrote on Feb 3rd, 2012 at 7:27pm:

freediver wrote on Feb 3rd, 2012 at 7:16pm:

falah wrote on Feb 2nd, 2012 at 10:30am:
There is a good case for the death penalty for the Shi-ite leaders who have killed and persecuted Muslims. Just as there is a good case for the death penalty for George Bush, Benjamin Netanhayu, Tony Blair or John Howard - I am advocating for a retrospective change of laws that will allow war criminals like Howard to be executed.



How far down the 'chain of command' would you go? Would you include militray officials? Would you include all the MPs who voted with the PM, or just the PM? You realise that the PM is only the PM for as long as the majority of MPs keep him there? Every decision by the government is effectively a decision by a majority of MPs (ie the sitting MPs of the ruling party).



So perhaps the MP who supported Australia's invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq should all be tried for war crimes?



I agree with you falah.

John Howard, George Bush, Tony Blair.

Should all be prosecuted, for treason, and for lying to the citizens of their respective countries.



IMO, there is no justification for Australia being in Iraq and Afghanistan.

We the WEST, are interfering in the affairs of Iraq and Afghanistan.






IMO, if the USA had irrefutable evidence, that the Afghanistan gov [Taliban], assisted with 9/11, the USA should have DESTROYED Afghanistan.

IMO, if the USA had irrefutable evidence, that the Afghanistan gov [Taliban], assisted with 9/11, the USA should have DESTROYED every city and large town in Afghanistan.

No mercy.

Yadda, the 'extremist'






That [criminal] act by ISLAMISTS, was an act of war



Title: Re: Iteresting Islamic Fact
Post by abu_rashid on Feb 3rd, 2012 at 10:49pm

Yadda wrote on Feb 3rd, 2012 at 8:07pm:
IMO, if the USA had irrefutable evidence, that the Afghanistan gov [Taliban], assisted with 9/11, the USA should have DESTROYED Afghanistan.

IMO, if the USA had irrefutable evidence, that the Afghanistan gov [Taliban], assisted with 9/11, the USA should have DESTROYED every city and large town in Afghanistan.


I think they've already made it clear they had no evidence of such a thing. In fact they are now preparing to hand Afghanistan back to the Talibaan. In others they just spent 11+ years massacring the innocent people of Afghanistan & Iraq, making for themselves sworn enemies, who will pursue them till the end of days, and the nett effect? Zilch, back to square one.


Yadda wrote on Feb 3rd, 2012 at 8:07pm:
No mercy.

Yadda, the 'extremist'

That [criminal] act by ISLAMISTS, was an act of war


No... the act of war was committed long ago by the U.S, this was a tiny fraction of a retaliation to the countless acts of war the U.S has carried out against innocent Muslim civilians.

Besides your book teaches to turn the other cheek, so stop being such a hypocrite.

You're not an extremist, you're just a plain outright liar. You routinely claim your book only speaks good things and then you add the clauses. Don't vex people, unless they be designated enemies of God, turn the other cheek, unless you're going to be stood up to.

You clearly don't believe in the nonsense you claim to believe in. Instead you take what you please as the moment dictates, based on your whims and desires, and this is precisely how God almighty described you in the Qur'an.

"Do ye then believe in part of the Book and disbelieve in part?"

"They follow nothing but conjecture and what their own souls desire!"

Title: Re: Iteresting Islamic Fact
Post by Yadda on Feb 3rd, 2012 at 11:58pm

abu_rashid wrote on Feb 3rd, 2012 at 10:49pm:

Yadda wrote on Feb 3rd, 2012 at 8:07pm:
No mercy.

Yadda, the 'extremist'

That [criminal] act by ISLAMISTS, was an act of war


No... the act of war was committed long ago by the U.S, this was a tiny fraction of a retaliation to the countless acts of war the U.S has carried out against innocent Muslim civilians.



Besides your book teaches to turn the other cheek, so stop being such a hypocrite.



You're not an extremist, you're just a plain outright liar. You routinely claim your book only speaks good things and then you add the clauses. Don't vex people, unless they be designated enemies of God, turn the other cheek, unless you're going to be stood up to.

You clearly don't believe in the nonsense you claim to believe in. Instead you take what you please as the moment dictates, based on your whims and desires, and this is precisely how God almighty described you in the Qur'an.

"Do ye then believe in part of the Book and disbelieve in part?"

"They follow nothing but conjecture and what their own souls desire!"




Sadly, and unfortunately, for moslems, i would not stand by, and allow a moslem to murder an innocent in front of me.

And likewise, i would not allow a moslem to murder me.

I am flawed like that.

Abu,
Will my God forgive me, for being flawed in that way ?




Romans 12:17
Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.
18  If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.

Romans 6:13
Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
14  For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
15  What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16  Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?



If i must lay down my life, one day, [God willing] it will not be as a servant of sin.
....nor as someone who is fearful of what a moslem can do to me.


Psalms 37:30
The mouth of the righteous speaketh wisdom, and his tongue talketh of judgment.

Psalms 82:2
How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah.
3  Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy.
4  Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked.

Isaiah 56:1
Thus saith the LORD, Keep ye judgment, and do justice: for my salvation is near to come, and my righteousness to be revealed.
2  Blessed is the man that doeth this, and the son of man that layeth hold on it; that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil.

Jeremiah 9:23
Thus saith the LORD, Let not the wise man glory in his wisdom, neither let the mighty man glory in his might, let not the rich man glory in his riches:
24  But let him that glorieth glory in this, that he understandeth and knoweth me, that I am the LORD which exercise lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness, in the earth: for in these things I delight, saith the LORD.



+++

Abu claims that i have said.....

"Don't vex people, unless they be designated enemies of God,...."


You are wrong Abu, and you are misrepresenting me in this forum.

I have never used that form of words.


In the OT Bible, God commanded the Hebrews to 'vex' the original inhabitants of the land, because of their wicked, murderous deeds [because of the things they did], but NEVER because they be 'designated' enemies of God because they were not 'believers'.iDeuteronomy 18:9
When thou art come into the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not learn to do after the abominations of those nations.

1 Kings 14:24
And there were also sodomites in the land: and they did according to all the abominations of the nations which the LORD cast out before the children of Israel.

2 Kings 16:3
But he walked in the way of the kings of Israel, yea, and made his son to pass through the fire, according to the abominations of the heathen, whom the LORD cast out from before the children of Israel.

2 Kings 21:2
And he did that which was evil in the sight of the LORD, after the abominations of the heathen, whom the LORD cast out before the children of Israel.

2 Chronicles 28:3
Moreover he burnt incense in the valley of the son of Hinnom, and burnt his children in the fire, after the abominations of the heathen whom the LORD had cast out before the children of Israel.

2 Chronicles 33:2
But did that which was evil in the sight of the LORD, like unto the abominations of the heathen, whom the LORD had cast out before the children of Israel.




The original inhabitants of the land would sacrifice their children to their gods.

In much the same way as moslems encourage the sacrifice of their own children, for the cause of Allah, today....


"Our children are our glory and honor,
they were created to be fertilizer for the land of Palestine,
and for our pure land to be saturated with their blood."


"Moderate" Palestinian Authority TV: Palestinian children created to fertilize the land with their blood

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2012/02/moderate-palestinian-authority-tv-palestinian-children-created-to-fertilize-the-land-with-their-bloo.html



Such declarations from your 'brothers' must make you proud to be a moslem Abu ???
/sarc off




"Romans 6:16
Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?"







Title: Re: Iteresting Islamic Fact
Post by adamant on Feb 4th, 2012 at 12:10am

Adamant wrote on Feb 3rd, 2012 at 9:07am:

abu_rashid wrote on Feb 3rd, 2012 at 5:49am:
fd you can't remain on topic can you?


Yes lets get back on topic the question was Abu should we ban the cult of Islam in Australia before muslims start blowing us up because they can't get their own way here.

In answer to your question (which was off topic) go visit the following.

www.danielpipes.org/comments/30022

Ouch bet you do not like him.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Hindus#During_Islamic_rule_of_the_Indian_sub-continent

http://koenraadelst.bharatvani.org/articles/irin/genocide.html

www.politicalislam.com/tears/pages/tears-of-jihad/

voiceofdharma.org/books/tlmr/

I do so like the last one as it was written by a muslim its so peaceful the way they converted an entire district.

www.kashmir-information.com/Miscellaneous/Persecution.html

Come on Abu answer the original question, or is it to hard for a person such as yourself?

Title: Re: Iteresting Islamic Fact
Post by falah on Feb 4th, 2012 at 1:38am

Adamant wrote on Feb 4th, 2012 at 12:10am:

Adamant wrote on Feb 3rd, 2012 at 9:07am:

abu_rashid wrote on Feb 3rd, 2012 at 5:49am:
fd you can't remain on topic can you?


Yes lets get back on topic the question was Abu should we ban the cult of Islam in Australia before muslims start blowing us up because they can't get their own way here.

In answer to your question (which was off topic) go visit the following.

www.danielpipes.org/comments/30022

Ouch bet you do not like him.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Hindus#During_Islamic_rule_of_the_Indian_sub-continent

http://koenraadelst.bharatvani.org/articles/irin/genocide.html

www.politicalislam.com/tears/pages/tears-of-jihad/

voiceofdharma.org/books/tlmr/

I do so like the last one as it was written by a muslim its so peaceful the way they converted an entire district.

www.kashmir-information.com/Miscellaneous/Persecution.html

Come on Abu answer the original question, or is it to hard for a person such as yourself?


Perhaps we should ban Christianity before the Christians wipe out the Aborigines and steal their land...ooops too late.

Title: Re: Iteresting Islamic Fact
Post by adamant on Feb 4th, 2012 at 1:53am
Falah. I do hope that Abu Rashid is not ill, if he is not incapacitated in any way could you please piss off and let him (if he has the balls) to answer the question posed to him and him alone.
I thank you in anticipation of your compliance with my request.

Title: Re: Iteresting Islamic Fact
Post by freediver on Feb 4th, 2012 at 8:29am

falah wrote on Feb 3rd, 2012 at 7:27pm:

freediver wrote on Feb 3rd, 2012 at 7:16pm:

falah wrote on Feb 2nd, 2012 at 10:30am:
There is a good case for the death penalty for the Shi-ite leaders who have killed and persecuted Muslims. Just as there is a good case for the death penalty for George Bush, Benjamin Netanhayu, Tony Blair or John Howard - I am advocating for a retrospective change of laws that will allow war criminals like Howard to be executed.



How far down the 'chain of command' would you go? Would you include militray officials? Would you include all the MPs who voted with the PM, or just the PM? You realise that the PM is only the PM for as long as the majority of MPs keep him there? Every decision by the government is effectively a decision by a majority of MPs (ie the sitting MPs of the ruling party).



So perhaps the MP who supported Australia's invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq should all be tried for war crimes?


And if found guilty? Should they meet the same fate as Howard?

Title: Re: Iteresting Islamic Fact
Post by falah on Feb 4th, 2012 at 10:58am

freediver wrote on Feb 4th, 2012 at 8:29am:

falah wrote on Feb 3rd, 2012 at 7:27pm:

freediver wrote on Feb 3rd, 2012 at 7:16pm:

falah wrote on Feb 2nd, 2012 at 10:30am:
There is a good case for the death penalty for the Shi-ite leaders who have killed and persecuted Muslims. Just as there is a good case for the death penalty for George Bush, Benjamin Netanhayu, Tony Blair or John Howard - I am advocating for a retrospective change of laws that will allow war criminals like Howard to be executed.



How far down the 'chain of command' would you go? Would you include militray officials? Would you include all the MPs who voted with the PM, or just the PM? You realise that the PM is only the PM for as long as the majority of MPs keep him there? Every decision by the government is effectively a decision by a majority of MPs (ie the sitting MPs of the ruling party).



So perhaps the MP who supported Australia's invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq should all be tried for war crimes?


And if found guilty? Should they meet the same fate as Howard?


Severe punishments seem fair for the main war crimes ringleaders like Alexander Downer.

Title: Re: Iteresting Islamic Fact
Post by Soren on Feb 4th, 2012 at 11:02am

falah wrote on Feb 4th, 2012 at 10:58am:

freediver wrote on Feb 4th, 2012 at 8:29am:

falah wrote on Feb 3rd, 2012 at 7:27pm:

freediver wrote on Feb 3rd, 2012 at 7:16pm:

falah wrote on Feb 2nd, 2012 at 10:30am:
There is a good case for the death penalty for the Shi-ite leaders who have killed and persecuted Muslims. Just as there is a good case for the death penalty for George Bush, Benjamin Netanhayu, Tony Blair or John Howard - I am advocating for a retrospective change of laws that will allow war criminals like Howard to be executed.



How far down the 'chain of command' would you go? Would you include militray officials? Would you include all the MPs who voted with the PM, or just the PM? You realise that the PM is only the PM for as long as the majority of MPs keep him there? Every decision by the government is effectively a decision by a majority of MPs (ie the sitting MPs of the ruling party).



So perhaps the MP who supported Australia's invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq should all be tried for war crimes?


And if found guilty? Should they meet the same fate as Howard?


Severe punishments seem fair for the main war crimes ringleaders like Alexander Downer.



Which law/s did they break, in which juristdiction?



Title: Re: Iteresting Islamic Fact
Post by freediver on Feb 4th, 2012 at 1:26pm

Quote:
Severe punishments seem fair for the main war crimes ringleaders like Alexander Downer.


Can you elaborate? How are they the ringleaders? Who else is 'like' them?

What about military officials?

Title: Re: Iteresting Islamic Fact
Post by Soren on Feb 4th, 2012 at 8:37pm
Islam's pretensions to purity, honesty, honour are thoroughly discredited. Take it from there.

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