Calls for Australian Parliament to permanently prorogue and Australian Prime to resign in favour of Sharia Islamic law in Australia. Is this a good thing?

Yes. The people knew all those years ago that they sowed dragon's teeth by allowing muslims to enter Australia. Muslims are inimical with a democratic society. It's now time to confront the mistake they have made. Let them experience sharia law. It is the only way to educate them.

shampain socialist wrote on Jan 21^st, 2011 at 3:03am:

. Calls for Australian Parliament to permanently prorogue and Australian Prime to resign in favour of Sharia Islamic law in Australia. Is this a good thing?

Do you have more details?

A link ?

As far as I'm aware calling for political change is not against the law in Australia. If they do it by illegal means and are seditious, then the law will deal with them as it would deal with anyone else calling for radical change.

In a democracy, varying political views are expected and welcomed... no?

The Quran has about 153,000 words and around 62% of them are about dealing with non believers so whenever you have an ideology that has a separate set of rules for those who do not belong to your cult that makes it a political Ideology and not a religion.
Kishori Saran Lal was the first on record to do statistics on the Quran.

Islam is a political ideology that has some religion.

If muslims want to take Islam out of the Mosques and into parliament then you are free to engage them just like any labor/liberal/greens on policy.

Australia got rid of the death penalty over 40 years ago.

Islam has the death penalty for apostasy you cannot leave Islam.

Islam has the death penalty for blasphemy you cannot even say the truth about Islam.

Islam has the death penalty for insulting the prophet as you see they kill people over drawings.

Islam has the death penalty for adultery they stone you to death for that

Islam has the death penalty for gays- they hang you for that.

Islam requires a woman to have 4 male witnesses to prove she has been raped.

Islam does not give the woman freedom to divorce her husband the imam always pushes her  to reconcile the man only has to say a few words.
The custody,child support and in fact anything relating to women are a step back in the past where women do not have any rights.

Islam calls for public floggings of those who drinl alcohol.

The punishment for stealing is amputation.

If muslims want to make Islam political and base laws on what is in the Quran then engage them on all aspects of Islam like you would with any other political party.

There have been enough calls for Sharia Law so start engaging Political Islam with debates

abu_rashid wrote on Jan 21^st, 2011 at 9:47am:

As far as I'm aware calling for political change is not against the law in Australia. If they do it by illegal means and are seditious, then the law will deal with them as it would deal with anyone else calling for radical change. In a democracy, varying political views are expected and welcomed... no?

But the point is, ISLAM itself does not allow varying political views.

ISLAM says, obey Allah [as 'revealed' in the Koran, ISLAMIC texts, doctrines] or we will 'rightfully' kill you.


"Truly, if the Hypocrites, and those in whose hearts is a disease, and those who stir up sedition in the City....whenever they are found, they shall be seized and slain (without mercy)."
Koran 33.60,61

What that verse [Koran 33.60, 61] is saying is that within Sharia jurisdictions moslems must not show any political tolerance, to those who oppose the world-view of ISLAM.

The phrase, "those in whose hearts is a disease" = = 'those who reject Faith', i.e. those people who do not believe, as moslems believe.


ISLAM promotes itself, through its adherents, by claiming that ISLAM is a honourable and beneficial philosophy for mankind.
But no one, either inside ISLAM [moslems], or outside ISLAM [non-moslems], is allowed to critically examine ISLAM, and its tenets and precepts.
Indeed, within ISLAMIC jurisdictions, critics of ISLAM are often summarily killed, for their 'crime' of 'insulting' [the honour of] ISLAM.
If ISLAM truly is a honourable and beneficial philosophy to mankind, why is critical examination of ISLAM always met with violence by its adherents???

One of the essential differences between our 'Western' culture, and ISLAM, is that we have embraced self criticism.
But, ISLAM never has.





+++

Western bureaucrats and politicians have shown themselves to be ignorant and naive, in trying to foster democracy within societies which are dominated by ISLAM.

And the true attitude towards of the Jihadists [i.e. good moslems] has been 'eloquently' put, by those standing behind the Al Qaeda bombers of the Iraqi parliament...


April 14, 2007
The right to legislate belongs to God alone, and whoever disputes that is an apostate.
The members of parliament deserve only death [source, 'Al Qaeda in Iraq' ]
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2007/04/the-right-to-legislate-belongs-to-god-alone-and-whoever-disputes-that-is-an-apostate-the-members-of.html




Moslem community priorities within host nations...

Increase in numbers and political influence.
Agitate for more numbers and more political influence.
Seek to undermine and ultimately, to destroy all of the un-ISLAMIC institutions within non-moslem host society.
IMPOSE Sharia law upon the host nation.

e.g.
Live in peace till strong enough to wage jihad, says UK Deoband scholar to Muslims
London, Sept.8 [2007]
A Deobandi scholar believes Muslims should *preach* peace till they are strong enough to undertake a jihad, or a holy war.
Justice Muhammad Taqi Usmani was quoted by the BBC as saying that Muslims should live peacefully in countries such as Britain, where they have the freedom to practise Islam, *only until* they gain enough power to engage in battle.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article2409833.ece

Quote:

But the point is, ISLAM itself does not allow varying political views.

That's not the point at all. That point would be relevant under an Islamic state, not under a democratic one.

Democracy allows and welcomes different political views, and Islam holds it's own political view.

Either you believe in democracy or you don't, stop flip-flopping.

abu_rashid wrote on Jan 21^st, 2011 at 11:17am:

Quote: But the point is, ISLAM itself does not allow varying political views. That's not the point at all. That point would be relevant under an Islamic state, not under a democratic one. Democracy allows and welcomes different political views, and Islam holds it's own political view. Either you believe in democracy or you don't, stop flip-flopping.

Do you think people will be impressed or repulsed with Sharia law?

If muslims want to take Islam for the mosque and enter Politics then they will be under intense scruitiny just like any other political party.

If you try and silence political debate when you make Islam political do you think that will make Islam look good?

abu_rashid wrote on Jan 21^st, 2011 at 11:17am:

Quote: But the point is, ISLAM itself does not allow varying political views. That's not the point at all. That point would be relevant under an Islamic state, not under a democratic one. Democracy allows and welcomes different political views, and Islam holds it's own political view. Either you believe in democracy or you don't, stop flip-flopping.

I believe in an open society, where people are allowed to make their own moral choices, within limits [within limits where the 'inclination' and actions of 'some', are not injurious to others].

e.g.
I believe that 'crocodiles' are dangerous creatures, which should be kept separate from people.

I believe that within a zoo, crocodiles should be kept within enclosures, by themselves, and not be allowed to wander into enclosures which contain 'sheep'.

In the world of men, imo, ISLAM is a 'crocodile'.



"Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them."
Karl Popper

"Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil."
Thomas Mann

Quote:

Do you think people will be impressed or repulsed with Sharia law? If muslims want to take Islam for the mosque and enter Politics then they will be under intense scruitiny just like any other political party. If you try and silence political debate when you make Islam political do you think that will make Islam look good?

Personally I, like 99.99% of all Muslims, have no interest in trying to push for Shari'ah law in Australia. Muslims can't even implement it in their own countries, let alone in a non-Muslim country, so any push to do so would only be an exercise in futility, and as you mention bad publicity.

My point was merely that if people did call/push for it, why are you so stressed about it? Democracy loves freedom of political thought, no? democracy promotes pluralism and participation by all members of society, to input their beliefs and ideals, no? I'm more perplexed by the hypocrisy of democracy, than I am backing up the push for Shari'ah.

Yadda,


Quote:

In the world of men, imo, ISLAM is a 'crocodile'.

Islam is to democracy, as democracy was to Communism.

Just as Communism had to crack down on Democracy's advocates, so too Democracy will have to crack down on Islam's advocates.

Why? Because political systems like this don't mind any ideology that doesn't pose a serious threat to their ideological supremacy...

Just as Communism was ideologically inferior to Democracy, so too Democracy is ideologically inferior to Islam. So it's perceived as a threat.

abu_rashid wrote on Jan 21^st, 2011 at 12:04pm:

. ...so too Democracy is ideologically inferior to Islam. So it's perceived as a threat.

Democracy is not perfect, it has many faults.
I know something of Democracy and i know something of ISLAM.

On a scale of EVIL, i would rate Democracy at 5/10.

But on a scale of EVIL, i would rate ISLAM at 10/10.


Democracy, as a system for living, devised by mankind, is easily corrupted.

ISLAM is pure EVIL, always.

Anyone who would take the trouble to independently study ISLAM's foundation texts [Koran, Hadith], just a little, will quickly discover just how wicked, evil, [and deceptive] ISLAM truly is.

Yadda, whilst you refuse to discuss rationally, but just base your opinions on your Christian-oriented propaganda view of Islam, then we will achieve nothing here.

Islam is the only system in the history of humanity that has produced a harmonious and stable society. All others, democracy included, have produced nothing but famine, war, destruction and chaos the world over.

abu_rashid wrote on Jan 21^st, 2011 at 12:30pm:

. Yadda, whilst you refuse to discuss rationally, but just base your opinions on your Christian-oriented propaganda view of Islam, then we will achieve nothing here. Islam is the only system in the history of humanity that has produced a harmonious and stable society. All others, democracy included, have produced nothing but famine, war, destruction and chaos the world over.

Abu,
IMO, your statements are pure projection.

In your statement, you accuse others of, PRECISELY what following ISLAM produces in this world, oppression conflict, poverty.




For a graphic demonstration of where truth lays, between our two stances merely visit;

THE RELIGION OF PEACE
http://thereligionofpeace.com/


ISLAM, moslems, define 'peace' as submission to ISLAM.




+++

Dictionary,
sophistry = = the use of fallacious arguments, especially to deceive.


SOPHISTRY EXAMPLE #1

Peace

Good moslems will tell non-moslems, that moslems want to see 'peace' cover the whole earth.

But a moslem, does not openly reveal [at the same time] that all good moslems define 'peace', as submission to Allah's will.
Dar al-Islam = = "house of peace" [is those places where Sharia has authority].
Dar al-Harb = = "house of war".

Google,
Dar al-Harb deception
i.e.
A moslem 'peace' = = mankind's SLAVERY, under ISLAMIST political rule.


SOPHISTRY EXAMPLE #2

'Terrorism'

Good moslems have declared to non-moslems, that they condemn 'terrorism'.

But moslems do not reveal that ISLAMISTS define non-moslems as the terrorists! - Truly!

Because ISLAMISTS have defined 'terrorism' as; Resisting Allah's will!! - Truly!

When non-moslems try to resist the ISLAMISATION of their society, or try to prevent ISLAMIST violence, good moslems [truly!] regard such actions as 'oppression' and 'violence' against moslems! - Truly!

e.g.
"Five Sydney men jailed over terrorism plot"
"The sister for one of the convicted men said...that the sentence is not fair to her community or religion."
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/02/15/2819965.htm
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2010/02/australia-5-jihadists-motivated-by-intolerant-inflexible-religious-conviction-sentenced-to-prison-te.html



SOPHISTRY EXAMPLE #3

Innocent people

Good moslems have declared to non-moslems, that they condemn the killing of innocent people.

But the good moslem, does not openly reveal [at the same time] that in ISLAM, only moslems qualify as 'innocent people'.
EXAMPLES next post....


Google to find...

e.g.
"....when we say innocent people, we mean muslims...If you are a non-muslim, then you are guilty...."
Anjem Choudary, UK muslim community leader, speaking publicly, of the London 7/7 bombing victims.


e.g.
"......In public interviews Bakri condemned the killing of all innocent civilians. Later when he addressed his own followers he explained that he had in fact been referring only to Muslims as only they were innocent: Yes I condemn killing any innocent people, but not any [unbeliever]."
Sheikh Omar Bakri Muhammad, speaking publicly, and then privately, regarding the London 7/7 bombing victims.


e.g.
"We don't make a distinction between civilians and non-civilians, innocents and non-innocents. Only between Muslims and unbelievers. And the life of an unbeliever has no value. It has no sanctity."
Sheikh Omar Bakri Muhammad, speaking to a moslem audience, regarding the London 7/7 bombing victims.

ISLAM = deceit.


a good read, outlining and exposing ISLAMIST sophistry...

Islamic Dictionary for Infidels
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2006/07/islamic-dictionary-for-infidels.html

abu_rashid wrote on Jan 21^st, 2011 at 12:30pm:

Islam is the only system in the history of humanity that has produced a harmonious and stable society.

Islam has a long history of civil war between muslims the Battle of the Camel was the first it led to the Sunni/Shia split and even to this day sunnis and shia kill each other.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Islamic_civil_war

Here is a link to the Australian calling for a Sharia republic in Australia, since you asked, yadda:
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/features/full-bred-aussie-with-a-longing-for-sharia-law/story-e6frg6z6-1225991941740

apparently only a handful of people have turned up to his meeting.
He seems quite a bit egotistical to me, his call is more about him than his care for his country.

In my understanding, the only way the Constitution of this country can be changed on an issue like abolishing the Australian Parliament is that a majority of people in *all* States vote in favour of that. So...yes, it is possible. Unless the guy is talking about that, he is talking about an armed revolution. Either way, Muslims in Australia well know, as they know in many other places, that most of the world does not want to live under a theocracy. This is a principle that has been fought and sacrificed for over many centuries; it doesn't matter what religion it was under, the principle remains the same.

As the Taliban foreigners are finding out in Afghanistan at the cost of their lives, they are up against an ancient, intrinsic, almost a genetic warrior instinct when they take on Europeans in warfare. Australian Anglo warriors are an old form of that, as they do find out. The description today in the Daily Telegraph of the Australian SAS soldier to be awarded the VC for his actions against the Taliban in Afghanistan are chilling, but only a re-run of the same story of every conflict in which Australian Anglo soldiers have been involved in, in this country's history. This soldier pulled a Taliban off his back like an insect, so the article said, stood on his throat and shot him. That was not done out of malice, if I know the Australian personality, as I am sure I do...it was done out of a sense of simply doing one's duty.

*that* is what people who want to overthrow this country's democratic institutions will be up against; until the last Australian stands.

Mr Ibrahim was, I understand, raised as a Catholic in Australia and has become a firebrand Islamist. My suggestion is that people of this mind do not push this country to the brink of retribution; it is not a pleasant experience...for either side.

Hitler was also raised a Catholic.

The additional problem for Islamists is that the Monarch of England is also the Monarch of Australia. The Monarch of England is also the defender of the faith; and if they think that western powers are going to let Australia become an Islamic republic, they had better get their heads out of the proverbial sand. It isn't going to happen. The history of this country isn't over, and it may have to be fought for; Islamists may wish to do this by force, it is their call, but once called, you either win or lose, and I don't fancy their chances...perhaps Mr Ibrahim's religious and racial background puts him at a disadvantage in understanding the reality of what he will be up against. Mr Ibraham Conlon!! You've got to be kidding. Leaders like that fail.

Quote:

apparently only a handful of people have turned up to his meeting.

Are you sure?? Because if we go with what Yadda's been feeding us, *ALL* Muslims support him and his ideas.... So surely more than just a few must've turned up... or the alternative, Yadda (and the other anti-Islamic nutjobs) is sprouting bovine faeces??


Quote:

He seems quite a bit egotistical to me, his call is more about him than his care for his country.

Well it seems he fervantly believes in what he's calling for, and therefore he feels it'd be best for his fellow countrymen to adopt the same. I don't think his sincerity can be doubted.


Quote:

In my understanding, the only way the Constitution of this country can be changed on an issue like abolishing the Australian Parliament is that a majority of people in *all* States vote in favour of that. So...yes, it is possible.

Albeit extremely highly improbable.


Quote:

As the Taliban foreigners

Foreigners??  ;D

The Talibaan are foreigners, yet let me guess, the American-cultured Karzai and the NATO forces that keep him in power are "locals" right?  ;D ;D ;D


Quote:

almost a genetic warrior instinct when they take on Europeans in warfare.

You obviously haven't watched the videos on Youtube of NATO 'warriors' crying when they get attacked, have you?  ;D ;D ;D


Quote:

The description today in the Daily Telegraph of the Australian SAS soldier to be awarded the VC for his actions against the Taliban in Afghanistan are chilling, but only a re-run of the same story of every conflict in which Australian Anglo soldiers have been involved in, in this country's history. This soldier pulled a Taliban off his back like an insect, so the article said, stood on his throat and shot him. That was not done out of malice, if I know the Australian personality, as I am sure I do...it was done out of a sense of simply doing one's duty.

That's the story we're told anyway. No doubt one day wikileaks will publish the truth about it... after everyone's already forgotten it.

Quote:

As the Taliban foreigners

I'm sorry....Isn't the Taliban made up of Afghan mujahideen fighters from the group who took refuge in Pakistan during the Soviet Occupation of Afghanistan in the 80's?????

I read in the newspaper a few days ago that 50 people were hanged
in Iran in the last 3 weeks.

It's like the movie - Hang em High with Clint Eastwood.

Bobby. wrote on Jan 22^nd, 2011 at 1:09pm:

I read in the newspaper a few days ago that 50 people were hanged in Iran in the last 3 weeks. It's like the movie - Hang em High with Clint Eastwood.

Yes, that's not a good thing..although it would really depend on WHAT the crimes were....

I'm pro-DP myself, for certain crimes.......but executions for simply not following a particular religion is a stupid idea...

Quote:

Are you sure?? Because if we go with what Yadda's been feeding us, *ALL* Muslims support him and his ideas.... So surely more than just a few must've turned up... or the alternative, Yadda (and the other anti-Islamic nutjobs) is sprouting bovine faeces??

I certainly don't say all muslims do or believe anything. What I can say however, is that the views expressed by this guy represent the ordinary, everyday, garden variety mainstream Islamic teachings. If one self-identifies as a muslim, then it can be assumed, they agree with its teachings.

Perhaps you could say, with reference to facts and evidence, or even hadith where you say this preacher is wrong Abu? To my mind and I can quote hadith and koran to back him up, and secondary scholars, he is entirely, 100% correct, and the views he is expressing are mainstream orthodox Islamic teachings.

Perhaps you'd care to enlighten us as to the error of his ways. According to you at least.

He said that the invitation to Islam must be peaceful, but if not accepted, then there is violence. That is entirely Islamic. He has said in effect that governments not ruled according to sharia mean nothing. That is entirely Islamic.

As to Sharia Courts being set up to start the takeover of Australia, that is correct. Sovereignty means, the Executive, the Judiciary, money supply, the Courts, and Defence. If you lose those you lose sovereignty, which is why they are seeking to acquire them.

gizmo_2655 wrote on Jan 22^nd, 2011 at 1:19pm:

Bobby. wrote on Jan 22nd, 2011 at 1:09pm: I read in the newspaper a few days ago that 50 people were hanged in Iran in the last 3 weeks. It's like the movie - Hang em High with Clint Eastwood. Yes, that's not a good thing..although it would really depend on WHAT the crimes were.... I'm pro-DP myself, for certain crimes.......but executions for simply not following a particular religion is a stupid idea...

You should watch the movie - Hang em High  - with Clint Eastwood.
They hang people for just about every offence -
including selling whisky.
That's what Abu would like here.

Bobby. wrote on Jan 22^nd, 2011 at 1:50pm:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Jan 22nd, 2011 at 1:19pm: Bobby. wrote on Jan 22nd, 2011 at 1:09pm: I read in the newspaper a few days ago that 50 people were hanged in Iran in the last 3 weeks. It's like the movie - Hang em High with Clint Eastwood. Yes, that's not a good thing..although it would really depend on WHAT the crimes were.... I'm pro-DP myself, for certain crimes.......but executions for simply not following a particular religion is a stupid idea... You should watch the movie - Hang em High  - with Clint Eastwood. They hang people for just about every offence - including selling whisky. That's what Abu would like here.

I've seen it many many times...

And it's 'selling whiskey to indians'...

I don't think Australian warriors cry, abu. If you think they do, you obviously have no idea of what you're talking about.

The Taliban have recruits from many places, not just Afghanistan.

Interesting. The more moderate muslims don't want to go too far in criticising the nutcases because so many 'mainstream' muslims support them and they don't want to push them away too.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/features/full-bred-aussie-with-a-longing-for-sharia-law/story-e6frg6z6-1225991941740

Islamic groups and leaders have frequently been criticised for failing to take on these groups, and for not being sufficiently vocal in rejecting their message. It's a highly sensitive issue in the community. One Muslim activist, who asked not to be named, says there is a reluctance to get involved.

"Muslims I think are very afraid of any backlash or repercussions of speaking out against these people. You could get aggressive threats or criticism from all sectors of the community saying, 'You shouldn't be criticising, who are you to say that?'

"This tends to create a sense of apathy in the community and the perception that extremism is on the rise, because those [extreme] groups are much more active and outspoken.

"There are also divisions in the mainstream community [and] different degrees of support within moderate groups for the extremist groups, so they need to keep those people onside and don't want to go too far in distancing themselves from them."

Sukkarieh says fringe outfits pushing for sharia law in Australia are better off ignored.

"The majority of Muslims in Australia don't support that view. We have the freedom to practise what we want according to our religion. What we need is less pressure, less talk about that sort of stuff. It should be ignored [because] when you ignore them you're not giving them any air."

But the task for the security agencies is determining whether an individual such as Siddiq-Conlon and a group such as Sharia4Australia are simply fringe radicals who should be ignored represent a serious threat to security.

You cannot be serious

If you are you have rocks for brains old chap

All others, democracy included, have produced nothing but famine, war, destruction and chaos the world over[quote

That's a perfect description of Isalm
author=abu_rashid link=1295543010/0#12 date=1295577005]Yadda, whilst you refuse to discuss rationally, but just base your opinions on your Christian-oriented propaganda view of Islam, then we will achieve nothing here.

Islam is the only system in the history of humanity that has produced a harmonious and stable society. All others, democracy included, have produced nothing but famine, war, destruction and chaos the world over.[/quote]

Calanen,


Quote:

To my mind and I can quote hadith and koran to back him up, and secondary scholars, he is entirely, 100% correct, and the views he is expressing are mainstream orthodox Islamic teachings.

Sorry, there's no orthodox Islamic teaching which says when you're in a non-Muslim country, you demand they implement Shari'ah (when Muslims themselves haven't even implemented it). You're a real space ranger Calanen.


Quote:

Perhaps you'd care to enlighten us as to the error of his ways. According to you at least.

The work to re-establish a Caliphate (ie. state that implements shari'ah law) is to be carried out in a already Muslim world. Talking about it in Australia is not the Islamic methodology.


Quote:

He said that the invitation to Islam must be peaceful, but if not accepted, then there is violence. That is entirely Islamic.

Not unless he's already formed his own government and is enacting the foreign policy of a Caliphate, no it is not.


Quote:

As to Sharia Courts being set up to start the takeover of Australia, that is correct.

The only kinds of "Shari'ah" courts that'd be setup in Australia would be the token ones where two parties agree to such and such a thing. This is a not a Shari'ah court in any sense of the term, and it's certainly not a path to taking over a country, anyone who believes it is, would have to be delusional or so fuelled by hatred, they can't see the trees for the forest.

Quote:

Islamic groups and leaders have frequently been criticised for failing to take on these groups, and for not being sufficiently vocal in rejecting their message.

As I've told you many times before fd, and neither should we be taking them on. They are exercising their rights within Australian law, if _you_ don't like it, then you're the one who has to change, because that's part of Australia's way of life. Like it or leave it (as the old saying goes).

If they break the law, then it's up to the authorities to deal with them (not us).

Your incessant claim that Muslims worldwide need to somehow take responsibility for every Muslim who has a differing view that you personally don't like is just bovine faeces fd.

Wake up to yourself mate.

Quote:

That's a perfect description of Isalm

Go read some history. Start with India and Ethiopia. Both of them were prosperous wealthy societies under Islam... under the short period of Western domination the people have starved to death with the most horrific famines ever seen in history. India was starving to death under British rule, whilst the British were exporting produce out of the famine stricken areas to send back to the motherland. Scores of millions of people died from the famines that the British brought to India.

Just because you're ignorant of it, doesn't mean it didn't happen. You can only deny historical fact for so long.

Quote:

Not unless he's already formed his own government and is enacting the foreign policy of a Caliphate, no it is not.

So in that situation it is true? -
Quote:

He said that the invitation to Islam must be peaceful, but if not accepted, then there is violence. That is entirely Islamic.

Quote:

This is a not a Shari'ah court in any sense of the term, and it's certainly not a path to taking over a country, anyone who believes it is, would have to be delusional or so fuelled by hatred, they can't see the trees for the forest.

Regardless of whether it can help take over the country, it is still a stupid idea that denies people fundamental rights.


Quote:

As I've told you many times before fd, and neither should we be taking them on. They are exercising their rights within Australian law, if _you_ don't like it, then you're the one who has to change, because that's part of Australia's way of life.

Abu, this is how freedom of speech works. People can say what they want. If they say something stupid, you criticise them for it. This is not the same as letting Islamic lunatics preach hatred and violence and the 'mainstream' Islamic community using it as an excuse to sit idly by. To suggest so merely reinforces your failure to understand Australian values.


Quote:

If they break the law, then it's up to the authorities to deal with them (not us).

So you will make no attempt to prevent a fellow Muslim from carrying out acts of violence until they actually break the law, and even then you will do nothing because it is the responsibility of the police, not you? And you do this out of 'respect' for the Australian way of life? At the very least, your claims about rejecting western values in favour of Islam is starting to make sense - no personal responsibility, just blindly impose draconian laws from above and everything will work out fine.


Quote:

Your incessant claim that Muslims worldwide need to somehow take responsibility for every Muslim who has a differing view that you personally don't like is just bovine faeces fd. Wake up to yourself mate.

Abu, the only ones making absurd claims about responsibility is you. You always seem to find a way for Islam and Muslims to avoid any responsibility or any need to raise a finger in stopping Islamic lunatics. Does not Islam itself teach you to correct your fellow Muslim? How does my view differ on the matter differ from that of Islam? Or does it only differ in that I am not a Muslim so I have no right to say the same thing?

Quote:

So in that situation it is true?

In certain contexts it could form part of the foreign policy of an Islamic Caliphate yes. Not in all situations. It is for those states who act with hostility towards the Caliphate.


Quote:

Regardless of whether it can help take over the country, it is still a stupid idea that denies people fundamental rights.

It doesn't deny anyone anything. It would be completely voluntary. Such a system exists in Britain now for Jews and Halakhic law, is it stupid? does it deny anyone their fundamental rights?

Not sure if you've noticed, but I am not an advocate of these token courts, but the way they're being spoken about here is completely irrational and hate-filled.


Quote:

Abu, this is how freedom of speech works. People can say what they want. If they say something stupid, you criticise them for it.

Well I personally don't see that I have any responsibility to criticise them for it.

If you can show me how I do, then I'm all ears...


Quote:

This is not the same as letting Islamic lunatics preach hatred and violence and the 'mainstream' Islamic community using it as an excuse to sit idly by.

If they are preaching hatred and violence, then surely they'll be charged right?

If Aussie-nationalists preach hatred and violence, are you under and obligation to seek them out and put a stop to them?

Sorry, but I thought that's what the law enforcement was there for? Or are you under some weird delusion that non-Muslims aren't obligated to do that, but Muslims are?

Muslims are supposed to form their own vigilante groups, and spend their time hunting down anyone who says something that fd doesn't agree with? Seriously, you're a whacko.


Quote:

To suggest so merely reinforces your failure to understand Australian values.

I think you're the one failing to understand them.

And then inventing some supposed extra obligation that Muslims only must fulfil.


Quote:

So you will make no attempt to prevent a fellow Muslim from carrying out acts of violence until they actually break the law, and even then you will do nothing because it is the responsibility of the police, not you?

This question operates under the delusion that all Muslims somehow know eachother, and mention to eachother their planning of mass acts of violence, in passing conversation.

Honestly, get a grip on yourself.

Besides the topic is about a political movement, not a violent movement, try to remain generally in context if possible.

Give me a break Abu.
We don't want Sharia law here in Australia.
You'd have to stone 99% of women to death because they had
sex before marriage.

Go and live in Iran.
They hanged 50 people in the last 3 weeks.

Bobby. wrote on Jan 22^nd, 2011 at 11:00pm:

Give me a break Abu. We don't want Sharia law here in Australia. You'd have to stone 99% of women to death because they had sex before marriage. Go and live in Iran. They hanged 50 people in the last 3 weeks.

yes the muslims want to change billions of years of evolution by killing people after they have done the old in-out !! Doesn't make sense does it :( Isn't that what some female spiders do to male spiders ;) LOL

Quote:

We don't want Sharia law here in Australia.

Well that's your right. Some people do claim to want it, and you should therefore have a friendly debate with them about why you don't want it.


Quote:

You'd have to stone 99% of women to death because they had sex before marriage.

Firstly fornication is not a capital offence.

Secondly, Islam is a complete system of life. It does not merely say to a society that is engrossed in hyper-sexualisation "You can't have sex!!!". Obviously people need to be educated.. at present we educate and encourage them to be promiscuous... that would need to change.


Quote:

Go and live in Iran.

As Iran is not an Islamic Caliphate, why would I want to live there?

Anymore than I'd want to live in Madagascar or Mongolia...

Hi Abu,
I bet all those thugs in that movie would be hanged in Iran?

abu_rashid wrote on Jan 22^nd, 2011 at 11:10pm:

Quote: We don't want Sharia law here in Australia. Well that's your right. Some people do claim to want it, and you should therefore have a friendly debate with them about why you don't want it.

There is nothing to debate. Go and live in a country which offers sharia law and all your problems will be solved ;)

Abu.

Quote:

Firstly fornication is not a capital offence.

They hang plenty of people for it in Iran - wake up.

Bobby. wrote on Jan 22^nd, 2011 at 11:17pm:

Abu. Quote: Firstly fornication is not a capital offence. They hang plenty of people for it in Iran - wake up.

yeh, just show a little bit of boob and your dead :(

freediver wrote on Jan 22^nd, 2011 at 10:17pm:

. Abu, this is how freedom of speech works. People can say what they want. If they say something stupid, you criticise them for it....

Exactly so.

A logic which does not apply, within ISLAM [see below].







Quote:

. [quote]Your incessant claim that Muslims worldwide need to somehow take responsibility for every Muslim who has a differing view that you personally don't like is just bovine faeces fd. Wake up to yourself mate.

Abu, the only ones making absurd claims about responsibility is you. You always seem to find a way for Islam and Muslims to avoid any responsibility or any need to raise a finger in stopping Islamic lunatics. Does not Islam itself teach you to correct your fellow Muslim?

[/quote]

Yes, when a moslem is deemed to behaving, acting, un-ISLAMICLY.







Quote:

. How does my view differ on the matter differ from that of Islam? Or does it only differ in that I am not a Muslim so I have no right to say the same thing?

Within ISLAM, moslems are encouraged to criticise all things which are deemed to be un-ISLAMIC.

But, within the influence of ISLAM, it is un-lawful to criticise what is deemed to be ISLAMIC.




The overriding 'guide' to the permissible actions of a moslem, is this;

All things are permissible, if they are permitted by Sharia.
...and vise-versa.


As is touched upon here;

"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. "
Koran 9.29


But no one, no moslem, and no non-moslem, must be permitted to question ISLAM [its doctrines].
Because, in the eyes of moslems, ISLAM is Allah's [already] perfect religion.
To critically question ISLAM [and its doctrines], is to 'insult' Allah.

And the punishment, for that crime, is death.



http://openparachute.files.wordpress.com/2008/04/freedom-of-expression-go-to-hell.jpg
"Freedom of expression GO TO HELL!" [London]

Of course, as the image above reveals, moslems are not bound by ISLAMIC law, where ISLAMIC law has no authority.
As the 'moslem impersonator' in the image, clearly demonstrates.
/sarc off

Quote:

If Aussie-nationalists preach hatred and violence, are you under and obligation to seek them out and put a stop to them?

There is no shortage of Australians willing to condemn them and bring them to justice. We see it as a problem in our community that must be fixed, preferably before the police need to get involved. If they belong to the same group as us (eg religious, political, club etc) we take an even greater personal responsibility for it.

The price of freedom is eternal vigilance. Of course, you oppose that freedom so you don't care what happens to it.


Quote:

Muslims are supposed to form their own vigilante groups, and spend their time hunting down anyone who says something that fd doesn't agree with?

Publicly condemming them would be a good start, and the appropriate response given that all this guy has done so far is make public statements. That is after all what the comment said that you were responding to:


Quote:

Islamic groups and leaders have frequently been criticised for failing to take on these groups, and for not being sufficiently vocal in rejecting their message.

Not sure why you always think of lynch mobs first.

If you refuse to make any effort to prevent lunatics becoming the public face of Islam, you can hardly complain when people start associating Islam with lunacy.

You missed this one:

Does not Islam itself teach you to correct your fellow Muslim? How does my view differ on the matter differ from that of Islam? Or does it only differ in that I am not a Muslim so I have no right to say the same thing?

Abu deleted my clockwork orange video -
it's gone without explanantion -
it was a good chance to see how Sharia law would apply to the crimes in it.
Maybe Abu doesn't want practical examples?
It kind of puts him on the spot.

Quote:

There is no shortage of Australians willing to condemn them and bring them to justice.

Fact is the vast majority of Aussies are completely ignorant and apathetic to their very existence. In fact I don't even think we have an anti-Nazi/Racism movement here. And in most countries where there is one, it's usually the socialists who are behind it, and they are certainly not the mainstream of society.

Btw, condemning something publicly is a load of garbage. It's nothing but an empty attempt to showboat. And people can quite easily publicly condemn something, that privately they support. In fact I'm pretty sure that most of those who do these very public condemnations actually are the biggest supporters of the things they condemn. Best cover isn't it?


Quote:

If they belong to the same group as us (eg religious, political, club etc) we take an even greater personal responsibility for it.

I don't know who you think you're fooling fd, but it ain't me. I've seen neo-Nazis openly expressing their views in various sectors of Aussie society, and receiving absolutely no rebuke or opposition for it whatsoever. Yes I'm sure there's some places that they might, but there's also plenty of places they don't.


Quote:

Publicly condemming them would be a good start

No it wouldn't. It'd just be a public facade. It tells us nothing concrete about someone's opinions whatsoever.


Quote:

and the appropriate response given that all this guy has done so far is make public statements. That is after all what the comment said that you were responding to:

But he hasn't broken any laws, or done anything wrong at all. He's merely expressed his political opinion.


Quote:

If you refuse to make any effort to prevent lunatics becoming the public face of Islam, you can hardly complain when people start associating Islam with lunacy.

Well, it's only in the very closed eyes of bigots that a small handful of people would be held to represent a community of hundreds of thousands. And such ignorant and hate-filled people, as we can see here already, hold such sentiments towards Muslims anyway, regardless of this guy's political pronouncements.


Quote:

Does not Islam itself teach you to correct your fellow Muslim?

Yes. And plenty of Muslims have mentioned to him their disagreeance with his methods.


Quote:

How does my view differ on the matter differ from that of Islam?

They're worlds apart. Islam teaches to correct with wisdom. You are talking about a public condemnation. I'm sure you can't see the difference.

Quote:

Abu deleted my clockwork orange video - it's gone without explanantion

Without explanation? You advised me to remove it.

Remember, you said:

Quote:

Hi Abu, I bet all those thugs in that movie would be hanged in Iran?

So since I supposedly act in accordance with the regime in Tehran, and you said it'd result in hanging in Iran, obviously it needed to be deleted... right?

abu_rashid wrote on Jan 24^th, 2011 at 7:13am:

Quote: Abu deleted my clockwork orange video - it's gone without explanantion Without explanation? You advised me to remove it. Remember, you said: [quote]Hi Abu, I bet all those thugs in that movie would be hanged in Iran?

So since I supposedly act in accordance with the regime in Tehran, and you said it'd result in hanging in Iran, obviously it needed to be deleted... right?[/quote]


You did the right thing to delete it -
they should be hanged if it happened here too.
We are too soft on crime.

Quote:

Fact is the vast majority of Aussies are completely ignorant and apathetic to their very existence. In fact I don't even think we have an anti-Nazi/Racism movement here.

It exists to a far greater extent than Nazism and racism. Not sure how you could have missed them, growing up in Australia as you claim.


Quote:

Btw, condemning something publicly is a load of garbage. It's nothing but an empty attempt to showboat.

It is a good place to start Abu. Perhaps the Muslim nutters would pull their head in if the 'moderate' Muslims had the balls to publicly stand up to them.

BTW, what is it exactly that you do here when you criticise America? Just empty showboating?


Quote:

And people can quite easily publicly condemn something, that privately they support.

I know a few Muslims leaders have been exposed doing this, and it honestly leaves me scratching my head how Muslims could continue to follow such low life leaders. It would piss me off, and most normal Australians if a leader of any kind carried on like that. How are you supposed to know when they are telling the truth?


Quote:

In fact I'm pretty sure that most of those who do these very public condemnations actually are the biggest supporters of the things they condemn. Best cover isn't it?

I expect I could count on my fingers the number of examples you come up with to demonstrate this point. And the grand total of those who held onto their position after being exposed would come to nought. Except for the Muslim leaders of course. You seem to be doing an aweful lot of projection here Abu.


Quote:

I don't know who you think you're fooling fd, but it ain't me. I've seen neo-Nazis openly expressing their views in various sectors of Aussie society, and receiving absolutely no rebuke or opposition for it whatsoever. Yes I'm sure there's some places that they might, but there's also plenty of places they don't.

For example?


Quote:

No it wouldn't. It'd just be a public facade. It tells us nothing concrete about someone's opinions whatsoever.

Only if you assume they are lying, but if you assume everyone is lying, as you appear to do, you aren't going to get very far.


Quote:

But he hasn't broken any laws, or done anything wrong at all. He's merely expressed his political opinion.

Hence my suggestion that speaking out against him, rather than lynching him, is the appropriate response. Not sure why there is any confusion here. Is it that you equate law with morality?


Quote:

Well, it's only in the very closed eyes of bigots that a small handful of people would be held to represent a community of hundreds of thousands.

If that community does not have the balls to speak out against the nutters, people are not going to think much of them either way. As the article pointed out, a large part of it is that the nutters actually have varying levels of support within that community. No doubt because Muslims themselves have fallen for the same thing.


Quote:

They're worlds apart. Islam teaches to correct with wisdom. You are talking about a public condemnation. I'm sure you can't see the difference.

I see no wisdom in hiding while the lunatic speak on your behalf.

.
QUESTION;
Should moslem community leaders [in non-moslem host nations] set an example, and condemn 'moslem impersonators' who give ISLAM, and moslems a bad reputation ???
For example, when they ['moslem impersonators'] act violently or criminally, err, i of course meant when 'moslem impersonators' act 'un-ISLAMICLY' ???
/sarc off




freediver wrote on Jan 24^th, 2011 at 9:45pm:

. Abu's opinion is that; Quote: Btw, condemning something publicly is a load of garbage. It's nothing but an empty attempt to showboat. It is a good place to start Abu. Perhaps the Muslim nutters would pull their head in if the 'moderate' Muslims had the balls to publicly stand up to them.

But, they don't.
And why not?
Because, that is the M.O. of how political authority 'operates' within any/all ISLAMIC jurisdictions,
i.e. terror and intimidation are employed, and they 'work', to effectively 'calm' the populous.
Fear 'calms', the 'naughty' child.






Quote:

. Abu's opinion is that; [quote]And people can quite easily publicly condemn something, that privately they support.

I know a few Muslims leaders have been exposed doing this, and it honestly leaves me scratching my head how Muslims could continue to follow such low life leaders. It would piss me off, and most normal Australians if a leader of any kind carried on like that. How are you supposed to know when they are telling the truth?

[/quote]


POINT #1

It is impossible.
Nobody can know when a moslem, speaking to both a non-moslem AND, moslem audience is being candid.

Dictionary;
candid = = truthful and straightforward; frank.

Typically, moslems are obliged [by ISLAM] to always speak truthfully,
...only when they are speaking to fellow moslems.

Deceiving 'unbelievers', if such deceit promotes the interests of ISLAM, and moslems, is par for the course with all good moslems.







Quote:

. Abu's opinion is that, WHEN ANY PERSON MAKES ANY PUBLIC DECLARATION; [quote]...It'd just be a public facade. It tells us nothing concrete about someone's opinions whatsoever.

Only if you assume they are lying, but if you assume everyone is lying, as you appear to do, you aren't going to get very far.

[/quote]

Exactly FD.

Which brings us to an important point;

HOW CAN ANY AUDIENCE KNOW WHEN/IF A MOSLEM SPOKESMAN, SPEAKING IN PUBLIC [TO BOTH MOSLEMS AND NON-MOSLEMS], IS SPEAKING TRUTHFULLY ???

[see POINT #1, above]




CONCLUSION;

If someone [e.g. a moslem community leader] speaks for ISLAM, no-one can know what part of any statement on behalf of the moslem community, or, on behalf of ISLAM, is spoken with sincerity and with truthfulness.

Some part of such a statement, MAY indeed be truthful.

But it would be reckless indeed for any non-moslem, to naively accept as truthful, any spoken words, or platitudes, describing ISLAM, which came from the lips of a moslem;
Because no-one would, or could ever be aware, of what part of his statement was intended to be sincere and candid.


TRUTH
Within all jurisdictions where 'good' moslems have authority, all moslems [both willing and unwilling 'moslems'], live in utter fear of the dire authority, which ISLAM holds over their lives.
To the point, that to even utter that truth, risks death.

I have been away for a long time but some things never change...  4 pages on some muslim in Parramatta lol.

There is detailed story on that sharia debate in Parra btw right here.

http://www.parramattasun.com.au/news/local/news/general/town-hall-meeting-debates-merits-of-sharia/2053480.aspx

Classic Liberal wrote on Jan 27^th, 2011 at 12:58pm:

. There is detailed story on that sharia debate in Parra btw right here. http://www.parramattasun.com.au/news/local/news/general/town-hall-meeting-debates-merits-of-sharia/2053480.aspx

from the article above...


Quote:

. Mr Siddiq-Conlon, an Australian-born convert to Islam, said: "Sharia is a far supreme system than democracy".

If that statement above is true, one simple question;

Where is the example, in the world, of where;
..."Sharia is a far supreme system than democracy" ???


+++

Democracy is far from perfect.

But we who support Democracy [i.e non-moslems] believe that, if not perfect, our laws are equitable [just].

Why so?







Quote:

. Because everyone, moslems and non-moslems, are equal before our laws. But that is not the opinion of many, many, 'moslems' living within Australia. Moslems within Australia, living within their moslem communities, inculcate, and teach each other, exactly what ISLAM teaches them; ISLAM teaches the moslem community, that the non-moslem host nation is 'oppressing' local moslems, by subjecting moslems to 'unjust' non-moslem laws. Quote: . Aggression: When non-Muslims do anything to preserve their culture and resist the Islamization of their country. Even when this "aggression" is non-violent, such as publishing a cartoon critical of Islam, this intolerable insult to Islamic supremacy on earth can be answered with violence by Muslims. Since a refusal to submit to sharia is a rebellion against Allah, the very existence of non-Muslim communities can be viewed as an act of aggression. http://www.jihadwatch.org/2006/07/islamic-dictionary-for-infidels.html All Australians should understand, that good moslems do not believe in, endorse, or promote, 'one law for all'. Instead, moslems want Sharia law for themselves, here in Australia [AND IDEALLY, THAT SHARIA LAW SHOULD BE ALSO IMPOSED UPON NON-MOSLEMS - HERE IN AUSTRALIA!]. Why do moslems want Sharia law for themselves, AND, for Sharia law be also imposed upon non-moslems? Simply, because Sharia discriminates in favour, of moslems. ...Sharia law, imposes a political and legal apartheid, which favours moslems. BUT MOSLEMS EXPRESS NO CARE, THAT SHARIA IS UNJUST TO NON-MOSLEMS, AND THAT SHARIA TREATS NON-MOSLEMS AS ALREADY CRIMINALS [i.e. for their 'unbelief'], UNDER ITS LAW. ISLAMIC tradition, scripture, and Sharia law say's that there is no 'equality' in punishment to be applied to moslems, and non-moslems, within a Sharia jurisdiction. Because, moslems are superior! e.g. If a moslem should kill a non-muslim it is never murder, in the sight of Allah... "The legal regulations of Diya (Blood-money) and the (ransom for) releasing of the captives, and the judgment that no Muslim should be killed in Qisas (equality in punishment) for killing a Kafir (disbeliever)." hadithsunnah/bukhari/083.sbt.html#009.083.050 "What is written in this paper?.......the judgment that no Muslim should be killed for killing an infidel." hadithsunnah/bukhari/052.sbt.html#004.052.283 ISLAM promotes a legal, and political apartheid, FAVOURING MOSLEMS.

Why Are You Protesting Against Israel
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1293790677/16#16

Yadda wrote on Jan 27^th, 2011 at 2:29pm:

. Quote: . ISLAM promotes a legal, and political apartheid, FAVOURING MOSLEMS. Why Are You Protesting Against Israel http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1293790677/16#16

TRUTH
In Sharia courts, non-moslems are not allowed to give, to present evidence, against moslems.

Why so ?

Because under Sharia law, before a Sharia court, ALL moslems are judged to be innocent, while ALL non-moslems are judged to be guilty people [because of their religious 'disbelief' of ISLAM].

Yadda wrote on Jan 27^th, 2011 at 2:40pm:

. TRUTH In Sharia courts, non-moslems are not allowed to give, to present evidence, against moslems. Why so ? Because under Sharia law, before a Sharia court, ALL moslems are judged to be innocent, while ALL non-moslems are judged to be guilty people [because of their religious 'disbelief' of ISLAM].

GOOGLE;
sharia non-moslems are not allowed to give, to present evidence, against moslems


GOOGLE;
and testimony from non-Muslims may be excluded altogether (if against a Muslim)

"Of all tyrannies a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good
of its victim may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live
under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies.
The robber baron’s cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may
at some point be satiated, but those who torment us for our own good
will torment us without end for they do so with the approval
of their own conscience."

C. S. Lewis

Dsmithy70 wrote on Feb 1^st, 2011 at 3:16pm:

"Of all tyrannies a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victim may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron’s cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated, but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." C. S. Lewis

YADDA SAID;


Quote:

. I believe in an open society, where people are allowed to make their own moral choices, within limits [within limits where the 'inclination' and actions of 'some', are not injurious to others].

from here;
"Sharia Australia"
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1295543010/8#8



Some people see 'freedom' as a 'licence', to do whatever the can, to do, whatever they are able to do.

I do not.


+++


"Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them."
Karl Popper

"Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil."
Thomas Mann

Do you want Sharia law in Australia?

Poll added tonight 15.2.11.

Please vote - it's your democratic right!

Well I would suggest we all want Shari'ah law, we just don't know it yet :)

So the poll is going to be skewed by peoples current lack of understanding about Shari'ah.

abu_rashid wrote on Feb 16^th, 2011 at 6:41am:

. Well I would suggest we all want Shari'ah law, we just don't know it yet :)

Abu,

We can all see flawed secular laws [law formulated by men], in many countries around the world.

But where in the world, is the example of Allah's prefect law, so that we infidels can bow down in awe, of Allah's perfection ???






Quote:

. So the poll is going to be skewed by peoples current lack of understanding about Shari'ah.

True.

So, as i have asked above, where in the world, is the example of Allah's prefect law, so that we infidels can bow down in awe, of Allah's perfection ???



My point being, that if you good moslems cannot point to a working example of Sharia, and to an example of Sharia's true justice, then you all of you good moslems are merely frauds.
And you are trying to perpetrate upon mankind that which ISLAM brings to mankind, wherever ISLAM is practised,
...oppression, falsehood, injustice, and violence.


If ISLAM is Allah's perfect religion Abu, where is the example, where is Allah's perfect religion being practised, so that we dumb Kuffar can repent our error.

ISLAM is a lie.

And ISLAM's adherents are all frauds, seeking to perpetrate a falsehood upon all of mankind.

The vote is 4 to 1 against.
Democracy rules -  no Sharia law!  (as yet)

Quote:

We can all see flawed secular laws [law formulated by men], in many countries around the world.

Yes we can see it brings nothing but misery. Mankind has become enslaved to fellow human beings and to their own desires.


Quote:

But where in the world, is the example of Allah's prefect law, so that we infidels can bow down in awe, of Allah's perfection ???

From 622, beginning with its capital in Madinah, through Damascus, Baghdad, Cairo, till 1924, finishing with its capital in Constantinople. 1300~ years of Allah's laws on earth. The longest continuous single implementation of a state system in the history of mankind. Nothing has rivaled the Islamic Caliphate system, before or since. Secular-Democracy has a long way to go, and quite frankly I don't think it'll even make it half way to the lofty standard set by the Caliphate.

Note: Allah's perfection is a bit of a misleading statement, since any implementation of laws by men is still man's implementation. But his laws are perfect guidance for us.

abu_rashid wrote on Jan 21^st, 2011 at 12:30pm:

Islam is the only system in the history of humanity that has produced a harmonious and stable society. All others, democracy included, have produced nothing but famine, war, destruction and chaos the world over.

History begs to differ.

Re : Do you want Sharia law in Australia poll?


Your vote was on: Today at 7:21pm
Your vote choice was: No

Yes  
 1 (16.6%)
No  
 5 (83.3%)

Total votes: 6

Ok .. who voted in favour of Sharia Law and why??

Quote:

History begs to differ.

Well bring your history.

Two situations I'd like to draw your attention to are India & Africa, under Islam, and then under the Western powers. If you actually know your history, you'll probably back out of the debate now...

Lisa Jones wrote on Feb 16^th, 2011 at 7:25pm:

Re : Do you want Sharia law in Australia poll? Your vote was on: Today at 7:21pm Your vote choice was: No Yes    1 (16.6%) No    5 (83.3%) Total votes: 6 Ok .. who voted in favour of Sharia Law and why??

I was the only one who voted yes because I felt sorry
for Abu's position.

Bobby. wrote on Feb 16^th, 2011 at 8:04pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on Feb 16th, 2011 at 7:25pm: Re : Do you want Sharia law in Australia poll? Your vote was on: Today at 7:21pm Your vote choice was: No Yes    1 (16.6%) No    5 (83.3%) Total votes: 6 Ok .. who voted in favour of Sharia Law and why?? I was the only one who voted yes because I felt sorry for Abu's position.

LMAO! So it was YOU lol !!!!

<< cracks her whip >>

What do you mean by "Abu's position" exactly?

abu_rashid wrote on Jan 21^st, 2011 at 12:30pm:

Islam is the only system in the history of humanity that has produced a harmonious and stable society. All others, democracy included, have produced nothing but famine, war, destruction and chaos the world over.

History begs to differ.

I should have also stated that under Islam many people in Europe and Eastern Europe experienced genocide.

And we've been through this before Abu. My own family tree history consists of at least 50 individuals who were murdered by Muslims in the period 1918 - 1921 .. some were little children who were shot in the back as they fled for their lives knowing their parents were shot dead moments earlier. I'm not including family friends and neighbours here .. just family.

One last comment .. I myself am named after my great aunt .. she was a little 3 yr old girl who was shot by Ottoman Muslim Turks and she played dead until she could no longer hear any more noise. The child was subsequently found by neighbours and was able to flee on foot with them. She died an old lady .. and was lucky that the bullet in question missed her vital organs.

Now if you don't mind Abu .. I'd like to very much leave this aspect of the discussion right there (out of respect for the dead).

And I'd also appreciate it if you could desist in your pathetic attempt to rewrite history. It's insulting to say the least that you think we're ignorant, gullible and stupid.

Because we're not.

Lisa.

Quote:

LMAO! So it was YOU lol !!!! << cracks her whip >> What do you mean by "Abu's position" exactly?

Well it's like he's trying to sell an Arab hot dog made from goats balls.
No one wants to buy it.  ;D

Quote:

History begs to differ.

As we've discovered previously, your history doesn't come from the authentic history books, it comes from your grandmother's chinese whispers.

The fact is that when the Muslims ruled India, the place was so filthy rich, that the name of the Islamic dynasty there (The Moghuls) was borrowed into the English language meaning extremely powerful and rich (so today we have terms like 'media mogul'). Within a few decades of the British arriving, the place had turned into a famine ridden hellhole, and still hasn't properly recovered from it till this very day (60 odd years after the mongrels vacated). During the British occupation, scores of millions of people died from famines, often at times the British were actually exporting the food of the famine ravaged regions back to mother england to feed her own.

During Islamic rule of Africa, Ethiopia sent food aid to the capital of the Islamic world (Medinah) during a time of famine. Timbuktu was a centre of learning, with one of the oldest universities in the world. Today, after only a century or two of European colonisation, the place is a stinking hellhole where people are dying by the millions because they can't manage to feed themselves or get clean water.

The West has done nothing but rape and drain every single piece of the world it touched, turning once flourishing places into backwards and suffering hellholes.


Quote:

I should have also stated that under Islam many people in Europe and Eastern Europe experienced genocide.

Yeh we went through this, you still never once responded to the numerous historical sources I quoted, which showed in fact it was Greeks who were the ones that committed genocide and horrific acts of brutality against youngins. Tearing unborn foetuses from their mother's wombs, hurling toddlers into the ocean alive etc. You did not utter a single word in response to the pages of rigorously authenticated historical sources I provided for you on this topic. Instead you just kept harping on about the chinese whispers passed down in your own family. Which may or may not have any credibility, we really don't know, as they are not historical sources, but individual accounts passed through a few generations.


Quote:

Now if you don't mind Abu .. I'd like to very much leave this aspect of the discussion right there

Leave off which aspect? The Greek aspect? No problem, I never raised it, you did (ironic you're now asking for it to be left), or did you mean the comparing Islamic to Western rule? which quite clearly you are not capable of holding up an argument on.

We only need look at history to see how Islam and Sharia are incompatible with the modern world. The Mid East has always been a cesspool since the blessed Jesus times, and Muslims countries are almost always shitholes with nothing to offer the world aside from its oil reserves at best.
The superpowerrs, read the west, doesn't want sharia law nor will it ever be predominant in our society.
Islam is a false philosophy built around fear, intimidation and aggression and has no place in the modern age. Dont you find it funny how the muslims all scream about how immoral the west is, yet lie, cheat and steal to live in those countries.? Eat poo you 3rd world dogs- my family who have muslim ancestors have worked so hard to distance ourselves from your kind.
Go lie in the bed you have made for yourselves!

I see we have another history "scholar" amongst us, you're not alone in your dismal grasp of history Lisa.  ;D


Quote:

We only need look at history to see how Islam and Sharia are incompatible with the modern world. The Mid East has always been a cesspool since the blessed Jesus times, and Muslims countries are almost always shitholes with nothing to offer the world aside from its oil reserves at best.

Oil was only discovered about 100 years ago, and Islam has existed for 1400, and for most of that 1400, Islam was the superpower of the world.

It's absolutely disgusting, vile and abhorrent that Abu thinks he can rescript history to fit into his pathetic posts in here.

You cannot hide/gloss over genocide .. no matter how hard you try Abu .. and the Ottoman Muslim Turks were responsible for it.

Thankfully today we have Genocide Studies in respectable and well established universities such as Sydney University .. where the genocide of the Armenians and Greeks as well as other people are taught within degree programs.

And within these university degree programs .. the truth which Abu is attempting to subvert and pervert in here .. is revealed daily.

Islam is the only system in the history of humanity that has produced a harmonious and stable society. All others, democracy included, have produced nothing but famine, war, destruction and chaos the world over.

- Abu

You see that everybody?? It's the evidence of a holocaust denier.

I find it absolutely disgusting, vile and abhorrent that Abu thinks he can rescript history to fit into his pathetic agenda in here.

You cannot hide/gloss over genocide .. no matter how hard you try Abu .. and the Ottoman Muslim Turks were responsible for it.

Thankfully today we have Genocide Studies in respectable and well established universities such as Sydney University .. where the genocide of the Armenians and Greeks as well as other people are taught within degree programs.

And within these university degree programs .. the truth which Abu is attempting to subvert and pervert in here .. is revealed daily.

It beggars belief how a person can just bury their head in the sand of denial given the plethora of historical evidence (much of it living given we have living witnesses who are still able to recall being attacked and shot at by Muslim Ottoman Turks and who can still recall witnessing their entire families being murdered before them whilst fleeing their own homes/villages).

Having said that .. it is very good for the rest of us to take note of Abu's agenda of denial because he isn't alone. There are others out there just like Abu who use online forums to re-script history in order to pathetically hide war atrocities such as genocide.

It's impt for the rest of us to not only take note of who such people are .. but to pity them .. for genocide denial is indicative of a serious illness. Can you imagine for a moment what it must be like for such individuals (like Abu) to be surrounded by so much living and historical evidence of mass murder .. yet to constantly repeat that none of it occurred over and over and over again in their mind as well as in their online posts .. hoping that their constant cries of denial will somehow make it all just magically go away? Only an ill person would subject themselves daily to such torment.

Abhorrent and vile as all this is .. those of us who are well ..  can only reach out with compassion to such individuals as they struggle to come to terms with the truth as it challenges and negates their invalid ideology.

The rest of us know genocide is totally and utterly unacceptable .. so much so that it can never be hidden nor forgotten. And we also know that it should never be repeated either.

abu_rashid wrote on Jan 21^st, 2011 at 12:30pm:

. Islam is the only system in the history of humanity that has produced a harmonious and stable society. All others, democracy included, have produced nothing but famine, war, destruction and chaos the world over.

Abu,
That is what moslems claim.

But i don't believe you.

Why should i believe ANYTHING that you tell me?

You are a moslem.

If a moslem assured me that the bright thing up in the sky, was the sun, I WOULD SEEK A SECOND OPINION.

That, is the measure of the confidence i have in any account, which is related to me, by a moslem, by any moslem.

"Islam is the only system in the history of humanity that has produced a harmonious and stable society."

Prove it.

You can't.



Moslems make such claims, but moslems are history revisionists.

Moslems have deleted truthful accounts of their history which do not show ISLAM, in a good light.

Moslems have always done this.

Moslems will always do this.

BECAUSE MOSLEMS ARE, AND ISLAM AS A PHILOSOPHY IS, NOT COMMITTED TO TRUTH.



Abu,
The only evidence that we have in the world today [which we see on the TV news reports daily], is that, wherever in the world moslems have authority, moslems ruthlessly murder people who disagree with ISLAM/moslems.
e.g.
IRAN.
e.g.
SAUDI ARABIA



You know Abu, that liquidating people who disagree with your politics/philosophy, who disagree with your worldview, does not 'produce a harmonious and stable society'.

It [such tyranny, terror, oppression] produces only a cowed, fearful populous.

And that is the only society ISLAM, which real ISLAM, produces.

ISLAMIC societies are places where nobody speaks truthfully, because, people who speak truthfully are [often] murdered by the ISLAMIC state.

Such a political system is called fascism.

Dictionary;
fascism = = an authoritarian and nationalistic right-wing system of government.

Fascism, does not produce harmonious and stable societies.

Fascism is a primary source of oppression, political violence, and human poverty, in societies where fascism holds sway.







The evidence that i am speaking truthfully regarding ISLAM, and, that,
#1,
it is impossible for ISLAM to produce a harmonious and stable society, and that,
#2,
ISLAMIC history, has been manufactured, 'confected',
is that when i ask you to give an example of a good, and just, Sharia society today, you can not give such an example.

There is no society in the world today, which is guided by ISLAM, which is just and peaceful, and prosperous.

In fact, the opposite is true.

All societies in the world today, which claim to ISLAMIC and Sharia guided, are nests of oppression, violence, injustice, and human poverty.

abu_rashid wrote on Jan 21^st, 2011 at 12:30pm:

Islam is the only system in the history of humanity that has produced a harmonious and stable society. All others, democracy included, have produced nothing but famine, war, destruction and chaos the world over.

I see you are still dreaming of the Caliphate again Abu.
Your obviously not referring to any Muslim nation in this or the last century, that's for sure.

the only peaceful society dere is brah is the trbial chieftain society in the dreamtime

Lisa Jones wrote on Feb 17^th, 2011 at 8:47am:

It beggars belief how a person can just bury their head in the sand of denial given the plethora of historical evidence (much of it living given we have living witnesses who are still able to recall being attacked and shot at by Muslim Ottoman Turks and who can still recall witnessing their entire families being murdered before them whilst fleeing their own homes/villages). Having said that .. it is very good for the rest of us to take note of Abu's agenda of denial because he isn't alone. There are others out there just like Abu who use online forums to re-script history in order to pathetically hide war atrocities such as genocide. It's impt for the rest of us to not only take note of who such people are .. but to pity them .. for genocide denial is indicative of a serious illness. Can you imagine for a moment what it must be like for such individuals (like Abu) to be surrounded by so much living and historical evidence of mass murder .. yet to constantly repeat that none of it occurred over and over and over again in their mind as well as in their online posts .. hoping that their constant cries of denial will somehow make it all just magically go away? Only an ill person would subject themselves daily to such torment. Abhorrent and vile as all this is .. those of us who are well ..  can only reach out with compassion to such individuals as they struggle to come to terms with the truth as it challenges and negates their invalid ideology. The rest of us know genocide is totally and utterly unacceptable .. so much so that it can never be hidden nor forgotten. And we also know that it should never be repeated either.

Hi Lisa,
I've noticed that Abu does tend to re-write history casting the Muslims
as pure angels & the West as all devils.

Bobby. wrote on Feb 19^th, 2011 at 9:16am:

Lisa Jones wrote on Feb 17th, 2011 at 8:47am: It beggars belief how a person can just bury their head in the sand of denial given the plethora of historical evidence (much of it living given we have living witnesses who are still able to recall being attacked and shot at by Muslim Ottoman Turks and who can still recall witnessing their entire families being murdered before them whilst fleeing their own homes/villages). Having said that .. it is very good for the rest of us to take note of Abu's agenda of denial because he isn't alone. There are others out there just like Abu who use online forums to re-script history in order to pathetically hide war atrocities such as genocide. It's impt for the rest of us to not only take note of who such people are .. but to pity them .. for genocide denial is indicative of a serious illness. Can you imagine for a moment what it must be like for such individuals (like Abu) to be surrounded by so much living and historical evidence of mass murder .. yet to constantly repeat that none of it occurred over and over and over again in their mind as well as in their online posts .. hoping that their constant cries of denial will somehow make it all just magically go away? Only an ill person would subject themselves daily to such torment. Abhorrent and vile as all this is .. those of us who are well ..  can only reach out with compassion to such individuals as they struggle to come to terms with the truth as it challenges and negates their invalid ideology. The rest of us know genocide is totally and utterly unacceptable .. so much so that it can never be hidden nor forgotten. And we also know that it should never be repeated either. Hi Lisa, I've noticed that Abu does tend to re-write history casting the Muslims as pure angels & the West as all devils.

I know .. one can only pity him really.

What has Sharia law got to do with Australia?
Crikey even most Muslim dominate countries do not have Sharia law.
I guess this is just more dog whistling from the usual extremists who get off my stirring religious and race hate.

What has it got to do with Australia?
There are Australians calling for sharia law to be mandated in Australia, that's what it has to do with Australia. What - you think they're extremists or something?

FFS, peoples, for a case study of how best to fuel inter-cultural distrust, hate and violence, one needs only to review the thread titles of these boards - which do not reflect favourably upon 'Westerners'...

It is even worse, when one reads through the actual threads - including most of those which do not directly contain anti-Islam/Muslim/Immigration sentiments in the titles...

Seriously, anti-Muslim bigotry pervades almost every page created here over the past week...

Well done to the media and Libs, who colluded to portray last Tuesday's funerals as Muslim ones - despite the fact that only 3 of the 8 'boat people' buried were dastardly-Muslims (5 of the 8 buried were Xtians!)...

Go figure, eh!?

it is well-known that the Australian media has a heavily leftist perspective.

So far 1 vote for & 6 against Sharia law.

I think we can now end this topic as a failure for Sharia law.

This topic really has ended.

shampain socialist wrote on Feb 20^th, 2011 at 11:40am:

it is well-known that the Australian media has a heavily leftist perspective.

And how do you define leftist?

Give examples of where any of the media discuss the dismantling of the corporate welfare state and its capitalist ideals?

take your time.

The ABC itself is right wing and the commercial media which John Howard sold off to North American private equity groups is totally off the spectrum when it comes to right wing fortification in this nation.

 

Yep.

Maybe the socialist utopia's of cuba and north korea would be more to your liking.

We are more than left enough in this country.

We have generations of welfare parasites happy in the knowledge that the rest of us will continue to support them from cradle to grave.  >:(

BigOl64 wrote on Mar 15^th, 2011 at 7:18am:

Maybe the socialist utopia's of cuba and north korea would be more to your liking. We are more than left enough in this country. We have generations of welfare parasites happy in the knowledge that the rest of us will continue to support them from cradle to grave.  >:(

You support them do you?

DO you know how much money is syphoned from the tax payer into the pockets of multinational corporations and private businesses? I didnt think so.

You have been brainwashed by the Coprorate slave fascist media that deludes you thus.

And when you give social securty to the people who need it, they spend it dont they? Who ends up with the money anyway?

You must decide whether you think Australia is a Christian nation

Unless of course you believe that Jesus was a capitalist based corporatist?

lol - well do you?

Or are you an atheist?

(your mean face charater suits you very well - explain it to God when you arrive a the gates - not sure which gates though - lol)

Foolosophy wrote on Mar 15^th, 2011 at 10:35am:

BigOl64 wrote on Mar 15th, 2011 at 7:18am: Maybe the socialist utopia's of cuba and north korea would be more to your liking. We are more than left enough in this country. We have generations of welfare parasites happy in the knowledge that the rest of us will continue to support them from cradle to grave.  >:( And when you give social securty to the people who need it, they spend it dont they? Who ends up with the money anyway?

Usually the pubs, pokies, Tab's and cigarette counters end up with it now that you mentioned it.

Foolosophy wrote on Mar 15^th, 2011 at 10:35am:

BigOl64 wrote on Mar 15th, 2011 at 7:18am: Maybe the socialist utopia's of cuba and north korea would be more to your liking. We are more than left enough in this country. We have generations of welfare parasites happy in the knowledge that the rest of us will continue to support them from cradle to grave.  >:( You support them do you? DO you know how much money is syphoned from the tax payer into the pockets of multinational corporations and private businesses? I didnt think so. You have been brainwashed by the Coprorate slave fascist media that deludes you thus. And when you give social securty to the people who need it, they spend it dont they? Who ends up with the money anyway? You must decide whether you think Australia is a Christian nation Unless of course you believe that Jesus was a capitalist based corporatist? lol - well do you? Or are you an atheist? (your mean face charater suits you very well - explain it to God when you arrive a the gates - not sure which gates though - lol)

Yeh, not a christian, so bit of a wasted nutbag attack. ;D