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Political Parties >> Sustainability Party of Australia >> a carbon tax is better than cap and trade
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1291422780

Message started by freediver on Dec 4th, 2010 at 10:32am

Title: a carbon tax is better than cap and trade
Post by freediver on Dec 4th, 2010 at 10:32am
Synopsis: a revenue neutral carbon tax is better than a cap and trade scheme because the carbon tax allows the reduction of other taxes, thereby offsetting the majority of the economic impact, whereas a cap and trade scheme will impose an added cost when the government buys back emissions permits. The strict annual limitations on emissions imposed by a cap and trade scheme are unnecessary from an environmental perspective. The price fluctuations they create are bad for the economy and create a barrier to investment in reducing our emissions.

The Labor government has rejected Rudds Carbon Pollution Reduction Scheme and is currently reviewing its strategy for reducing Australias greenhouse emissions. This review is not about science, nor is it about targets for emissions reduction. It is about the mechanism for reducing emissions. I hope this is because they have realised that cap and trade is a mistake and we should opt for a tax on greenhouse emissions. It is a good sign that both the media and politicians are at least using the word tax on a regular basis, although this is partly because the media has begun to equate a tax with a trading scheme.

A carbon tax raises a steady stream of revenue. This allows the reduction in other taxes on environmentally and socially benign items (eg income tax, GST). A carbon tax will raise revenue for at least half a century. As it is phased out it will most likely be replaced with other green taxes as new threats to the environment arise.

A tax differs from a trading scheme in that the government sets the price and allows market forces to determine the quantity being consumed or traded. In contrast, under a trading scheme the government dictates the quantity being traded and allows market forces to determine the price. It is wrong to say that one scheme makes more use of market forces. Both schemes make the most use of market forces that is possible while still allowing the government to intervene to correct the market failure that created the problem (the market failed in that it did not already internalise the environmental cost into the price). They differ however in the outcome these market forces achieve.

Under a cap and trade scheme, the outcome is a fixed annual quantity of emissions, with a wildly fluctuating price. Under a carbon tax, the outcome is a steady price on emissions and a gradual reduction in annual emissions. The fixed emissions under a cap and trade scheme have been promoted as an advantage over a tax, however this is not the outcome we want for the environment we want a gradual reduction. Furthermore, the annual variation in emissions is totally irrelevant from an environmental perspective. What matters is the cumulative emissions over several decades. This depends to a large extent on the economic impact of whatever mechanism we choose for reducing emissions the better the mechanism, the more long term emissions reductions we achieve and the less the impact on the economy.

The cost of the fixed annual emissions is a wildly fluctuating price.  At first, and each time the government reduces emissions, the price will skyrocket. It takes time to build infrastructure and change habits. However, eventually it will happen and the targets will be easily achieved. When this happens, the price plummets. This happened in Europe. Anyone interested in investing in emissions reduction will be forced to go for the quick fix. Any option that takes a long time to develop (eg new technology), implement (new infrastructure) or pay off will be discounted because of the uncertainty created by the unpredictable price on emissions.

A carbon tax on the other hand provides what the economy needs to respond appropriately certainty about the return on investment from emissions reduction technology and infrastructure. If the price is set right, it also achieves our environmental goal a steady reduction in emissions over many years.

Both schemes require changes over time. Under a cap and trade scheme, the government will need to buy back emissions rights from large polluters. This will impose a cost on taxpayers. We will not only pay more for electricity (which goes into the pockets of polluters), we will have to pay higher taxes to buy back emissions rights money which again goes into the pockets of big polluters. No matter what plans the government makes now, the politics of the day will always dictate what happens in the future. Under cap and trade, the government will have no choice but to take the price into account when imposing further reductions in emissions. Likewise under a tax the government will be forced to take the economic situation into account when deciding if the tax needs to be increased in order to meet long term targets.

Title: Re: a carbon tax is better than cap and trade
Post by freediver on Dec 4th, 2010 at 10:33am
Economists cannot predict long into the future. They are very good at predicting short term outcomes, because they measure short term responses to changes all the time. Long term changes depend on new technology, structural changes to how our economy operates and political changes. No-one can predict these. Nor can we impose limitations on later generations as a substitute for making changes ourselves. Right now, our best approach for reducing emissions is to tax them at a rate that will result in a steady reduction in emissions over the next decade, and to use the revenue raised to reduce other taxes, thereby reducing the economic impact and leaving our society more able to make whatever changes become necessary in the future.  

Title: Re: a carbon tax is better than cap and trade
Post by muso on Dec 4th, 2010 at 10:45am
As I said in the other thread. a cap and trade system might be cheaper, but far less effective. You get what you pay for.

Title: Re: a carbon tax is better than cap and trade
Post by freediver on Dec 4th, 2010 at 10:49am
How is it cheaper?

Title: Re: a carbon tax is better than cap and trade
Post by laborfornever on Dec 4th, 2010 at 12:10pm
and how will reducing our emmissions from 1.4% of world total to a prposed .9% of world total make any difference in the grand scale of things.


A .5% reduction on world emmissions??


how will that help and at how much of an economic cost and disaster to our economy????


You ppl who support this are too stupid to see it will cost thousands of jobs send many ppl into the street and will produce no benefit to the climate.

Title: Re: a carbon tax is better than cap and trade
Post by sprintcyclist on Dec 4th, 2010 at 12:33pm

dear spazzos - a kneecapping is also better than having ones leg completely severed.

either are about as beneficial to the globe as any tax on air

Title: Re: a carbon tax is better than cap and trade
Post by freediver on Dec 4th, 2010 at 12:39pm

Quote:
and how will reducing our emmissions from 1.4% of world total to a prposed .9% of world total make any difference in the grand scale of things.


It will reduce global emissions by 0.5% - which is a big impact for a country with only 0.3% of the global population. More importantly, we will not be holding up the rest of the world like we have for the last decade. The geopolitical impact will be even greater than the more direct impact. For example, in a single move we could halve the number of developed countries that have not ratified kyoto.

Do you perhaps think that it is OK to do far more than your fair share of polluting so long as you think of yourself as part of a small group rather than a large one? Can you explain how that is rational?


Quote:
how will that help and at how much of an economic cost and disaster to our economy????


So now you are a doomsayer? It will only harm the economy if we go about it the wrong way - for example using Abbott's hair brained scheme.

Title: Re: a carbon tax is better than cap and trade
Post by laborfornever on Dec 4th, 2010 at 12:41pm
so how will reducing emmisions by .5% help.


Are you saying that the dam has burst and we'll stick our thumb in a hole and stop .5% of the water from escaping is a logical thing to do????

It will cost billions and achieve 9/10s of bugger all

Title: Re: a carbon tax is better than cap and trade
Post by freediver on Dec 4th, 2010 at 12:45pm

Quote:
so how will reducing emmisions by .5% help.


Is this starting to sound a bit repetitive to you?


Quote:
Are you saying that the dam has burst


No. Why do you think that?


Quote:
It will cost billions


Can you explain why the CEO of BHP - one of our most emissions intensive companies - has spoken out in favour of action, and in particular in favour of a revenue neutral carbon tax? Who is the doomsayer now?

Title: Re: a carbon tax is better than cap and trade
Post by muso on Dec 4th, 2010 at 12:54pm

freediver wrote on Dec 4th, 2010 at 12:45pm:
Can you explain why the CEO of BHP - one of our most emissions intensive companies - has spoken out in favour of action, and in particular in favour of a revenue neutral carbon tax? Who is the doomsayer now?


The corporate world in general is in favour of action. It has been a waiting game.

Ultimately the world needs to reduce greenhouse gas emissions to zero, but that clearly can not happen in the short term.

Title: Re: a carbon tax is better than cap and trade
Post by muso on Dec 4th, 2010 at 12:54pm

freediver wrote on Dec 4th, 2010 at 10:49am:
How is it cheaper?


I meant cheaper rather than most cost effective.

Title: Re: a carbon tax is better than cap and trade
Post by freediver on Dec 4th, 2010 at 12:55pm

muso wrote on Dec 4th, 2010 at 12:54pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 4th, 2010 at 10:49am:
How is it cheaper?


I meant cheaper rather than most cost effective.


So how is it cheaper?

Title: Re: a carbon tax is better than cap and trade
Post by gizmo_2655 on Dec 4th, 2010 at 9:44pm

freediver wrote on Dec 4th, 2010 at 12:39pm:

Quote:
and how will reducing our emmissions from 1.4% of world total to a prposed .9% of world total make any difference in the grand scale of things.


It will reduce global emissions by 0.5% - which is a big impact for a country with only 0.3% of the global population. More importantly, we will not be holding up the rest of the world like we have for the last decade. The geopolitical impact will be even greater than the more direct impact. For example, in a single move we could halve the number of developed countries that have not ratified kyoto.

Do you perhaps think that it is OK to do far more than your fair share of polluting so long as you think of yourself as part of a small group rather than a large one? Can you explain how that is rational?

[quote]how will that help and at how much of an economic cost and disaster to our economy????


So now you are a doomsayer? It will only harm the economy if we go about it the wrong way - for example using Abbott's hair brained scheme. [/quote]

Actually more like 0.05% of world emissions...

Title: Re: a carbon tax is better than cap and trade
Post by muso on Dec 4th, 2010 at 9:53pm

freediver wrote on Dec 4th, 2010 at 12:55pm:

muso wrote on Dec 4th, 2010 at 12:54pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 4th, 2010 at 10:49am:
How is it cheaper?


I meant cheaper rather than most cost effective.


So how is it cheaper?


I meant from the perspective of the companies involved.

A Carbon Tax will always be an expense - a negative cash flow. Carbon trading offers a chance for a positive cash flow. Overall it can be cheaper, but it offers more opportunities for 'creative accounting'. They did it in Europe.  The net result of Kyoto was not very satisfactory.

Title: Re: a carbon tax is better than cap and trade
Post by freediver on Dec 8th, 2010 at 8:13pm
I have given this issue a plug on the site home page:

http://www.ozpolitic.com/index.html

Title: Re: a carbon tax is better than cap and trade
Post by mellie on Dec 8th, 2010 at 8:18pm

freediver wrote on Dec 8th, 2010 at 8:13pm:
I have given this issue a plug on the site home page:

http://www.ozpolitic.com/index.html


I thought we pulled the plug on this topic months ago?



Forget it freediver, it a lame duck and isn't going to happen....and for good reason.

Quite simply, a carbon tax is unjustified and not in our nations best interests.



Sorry.



::)

Title: Re: a carbon tax is better than cap and trade
Post by sprintcyclist on Dec 8th, 2010 at 9:58pm

i'm not sorry at all.

it was a crock of leftard shyte that was flushed

Title: Re: a carbon tax is better than cap and trade
Post by Grey on Apr 19th, 2011 at 7:23am
Apart from anything else the best way to cut carbon emissions is to stop the waste. that means to stop trucking toilet rolls from the East coast to the West and sending them back with toilet rolls made in the west. Arseholes really don't care about the colour and shape of patterns.(Let's ban the interstate trucking of toilet rolls freediver  ;D ) A junior minister in the Whitlam government once said, " I'd be proud to be part of a government that takes on the packaging industryand I mean take them RIGHT ON! When Paul Keating became Prime Minister - he forgot.

Title: Re: a carbon tax is better than cap and trade
Post by PlayersPlay on Jun 7th, 2011 at 3:53am

freediver wrote on Dec 4th, 2010 at 10:33am:
Economists cannot predict long into the future. They are very good at predicting short term outcomes, because they measure short term responses to changes all the time. Long term changes depend on new technology, structural changes to how our economy operates and political changes. No-one can predict these. Nor can we impose limitations on later generations as a substitute for making changes ourselves. Right now, our best approach for reducing emissions is to tax them at a rate that will result in a steady reduction in emissions over the next decade, and to use the revenue raised to reduce other taxes, thereby reducing the economic impact and leaving our society more able to make whatever changes become necessary in the future.

POSSIBLY TONY ABBOTTS POINT...

WHICH MEANS THIS FOOTAGE OF HIM TALKING ABOUT A CARBON TAX WILL STICK AROUND FOR A LONG LONG TIME!

THAT'S GOLD!

YEH, HEY I MIGHT GO READ THAT OP NOW!  :D ;) ;) ::)

Title: Re: a carbon tax is better than cap and trade
Post by PlayersPlay on Jun 7th, 2011 at 3:55am
A junior minister in the Whitlam government once said, " I'd be proud to be part of a government that takes on the packaging industryand I mean take them RIGHT ON! When Paul Keating became Prime Minister - he forgot.
<<
That's food for thought!  :) :) :o

Title: Re: a carbon tax is better than cap and trade
Post by lerche007 on Jul 28th, 2011 at 2:31am
So much crap..reality is ur being taxed on the air u breathe and the only ones that benefit are the elite... Rothschild Australia and E3 International to take the lead in the global carbon trading market...http://www.prnewswire.co.uk/cgi/news/release?id=90090

Thanks to the govts paid think tanks so called scientists that have proven nothing and lied at Copenhagen. ;)


Title: Re: a carbon tax is better than cap and trade
Post by Sprintcyclist on Jul 28th, 2011 at 8:25am

carbon tax or cap and trade ???

it's liie choosing between a garotte and a knife in the heart

Title: Re: a carbon tax is better than cap and trade
Post by Amadd on Aug 3rd, 2011 at 11:02am

Quote:
it's liie choosing between a garotte and a knife in the heart


So how does doing nothing at all fair in that equation?

Are we best to do nothing more than argue about how to tackle a real situation? Or are you really of the firm belief that there is no existent problem?

Let me show you. Let me show you a track that displays to you how much you dither. Let me show you how pathetically indecicive you are.

Check it out, six years ago now...still dithering.
Simply Amazing!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1nFB-R-_gIi


Title: Re: a carbon tax is better than cap and trade
Post by Doctor Jolly on Aug 3rd, 2011 at 11:15am

lerche007 wrote on Jul 28th, 2011 at 2:31am:
So much crap..reality is ur being taxed on the air u breathe and the only ones that benefit are the elite... Rothschild Australia and E3 International to take the lead in the global carbon trading market...http://www.prnewswire.co.uk/cgi/news/release?id=90090

Thanks to the govts paid think tanks so called scientists that have proven nothing and lied at Copenhagen. ;)



"Taxing the air we breathe" is such a stupid statement.
Its not taxing the air we breathe. Its taxing those bastards who try to polute the air we breathe.

I suppose you also oppose "Taxing the food we eat"  (GST), or "Taxing the ground we walk on" (Land tax, stamp duty, etc).
:o

Title: Re: a carbon tax is better than cap and trade
Post by Maqqa on Aug 6th, 2011 at 11:10am
freediver

why are we discussing the mechanics of a cap & trade vs a carbon tax

this is like discussing between lethal injection vs electrocution ie by discussing it we are resigned to the death sentence

why are we not fighting the death sentence?

an Australian Carbon Tax or an Australian Cap & Trade will not do one difference to global temperature

if humans contributes only 1% to total global carbon emissions then how would reducing any part of that 1% reduce global temperature?

Title: Re: a carbon tax is better than cap and trade
Post by freediver on Aug 13th, 2011 at 8:43pm
Off-Topic replies have been moved to this Topic.

Title: Re: a carbon tax is better than cap and trade
Post by Maqqa on Aug 13th, 2011 at 9:35pm

freediver wrote on Aug 13th, 2011 at 8:43pm:
Off-Topic replies have been moved to this Topic.


As per my original reply to this topic

why are we discussing the mechanics of a cap & trade vs a carbon tax

this is like discussing between lethal injection vs electrocution ie by discussing it we are resigned to the death sentence

why are we not fighting the death sentence?

an Australian Carbon Tax or an Australian Cap & Trade will not do one difference to global temperature

if humans contributes only 1% to total global carbon emissions then how would reducing any part of that 1% reduce global temperature?

Title: Re: a carbon tax is better than cap and trade
Post by freediver on Jan 1st, 2012 at 10:08am
Maqqa, we are discussing it because the economic argument is just as important as the scientific one. If you have no interest in the economics, there are plenty of other threads where people are discussing the science.

Title: Re: a carbon tax is better than cap and trade
Post by Dnarever on Jan 2nd, 2012 at 9:50am

freediver wrote on Dec 4th, 2010 at 12:55pm:

muso wrote on Dec 4th, 2010 at 12:54pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 4th, 2010 at 10:49am:
How is it cheaper?


I meant cheaper rather than most cost effective.


So how is it cheaper?



I think a fixed price is the better option.

Carbon trading is market driven and obviously can be cheaper, the GFC pushed priced down to about 9 euro per ton, around $15 AUS which is substantially cheaper than our fixed $23. At the same time the trading price max was about $30 AUS.

It may be cheaper and currently is but probably not in the longer term.

Title: Re: a carbon tax is better than cap and trade
Post by freediver on Jan 4th, 2012 at 9:26am
In the long run, it is community reaction, politics and government policy that will set the price. The mechanism only makes a difference over the short term - between a stable and a fluctuating price.

Under a tax, the government would gradually increase the price to meet whatever targets we have, and also adjust those targets based on the difficulty in achieving them (ie the price). Similarly for a trading scheme they would adjust how quickly the total emissions permitted is brought down, based on price and emissions reduction targets.

Title: Re: a carbon tax is better than cap and trade
Post by Deathridesahorse on Jan 4th, 2012 at 8:12pm

freediver wrote on Jan 4th, 2012 at 9:26am:
In the long run, it is community reaction, politics and government policy that will set the price. The mechanism only makes a difference over the short term - between a stable and a fluctuating price.

Under a tax, the government would gradually increase the price to meet whatever targets we have, and also adjust those targets based on the difficulty in achieving them (ie the price). Similarly for a trading scheme they would adjust how quickly the total emissions permitted is brought down, based on price and emissions reduction targets.

Ah, true: this exact point will make for very interesting reading in the history books where the issue of the day was getting started!!

PAUSE BUTTON POLITICS WRIT LARGE!!  ;D

Title: Re: a carbon tax is better than cap and trade
Post by freediver on Jan 4th, 2012 at 10:33pm
pause button politics?

Title: Re: a carbon tax is better than cap and trade
Post by Deathridesahorse on Jan 30th, 2012 at 9:15pm

freediver wrote on Jan 4th, 2012 at 10:33pm:
pause button politics?

Um,




Title: Re: a carbon tax is better than cap and trade
Post by freediver on Jan 30th, 2012 at 9:48pm
So, a Dorothy Dixer?

That looks like a cross between Obama and Rudd.

Title: Re: a carbon tax is better than cap and trade
Post by Deathridesahorse on Feb 8th, 2012 at 7:59pm
oH GEEZ, HOW ABOUT GENERAL OBFUSCATION!!
yA KNOW, THE OL' PRETEND YOU CAN'T INTERPRET THE PROBLEM

Title: Re: a carbon tax is better than cap and trade
Post by Soren on Feb 8th, 2012 at 8:14pm

freediver wrote on Jan 4th, 2012 at 9:26am:
In the long run, it is community reaction, politics and government policy that will set the price. The mechanism only makes a difference over the short term - between a stable and a fluctuating price.

Under a tax, the government would gradually increase the price to meet whatever targets we have, and also adjust those targets based on the difficulty in achieving them (ie the price). Similarly for a trading scheme they would adjust how quickly the total emissions permitted is brought down, based on price and emissions reduction targets.



This shows  your touching underlying belief that a government, any government,  knows how to participate, devise, control and regulate a speculative futures market in an invisible, odourless gas that occurs naturally as the inevitable byproduct of life.




Title: Re: a carbon tax is better than cap and trade
Post by Deathridesahorse on Feb 9th, 2012 at 4:53pm

Soren wrote on Feb 8th, 2012 at 8:14pm:

freediver wrote on Jan 4th, 2012 at 9:26am:
In the long run, it is community reaction, politics and government policy that will set the price. The mechanism only makes a difference over the short term - between a stable and a fluctuating price.

Under a tax, the government would gradually increase the price to meet whatever targets we have, and also adjust those targets based on the difficulty in achieving them (ie the price). Similarly for a trading scheme they would adjust how quickly the total emissions permitted is brought down, based on price and emissions reduction targets.



This shows  your touching underlying belief that a government, any government,  knows how to participate, devise, control and regulate a speculative futures market in an invisible, odourless gas that occurs naturally as the inevitable byproduct of life.

IT'S ALL REGULATION IN THE END!!

Title: Re: a carbon tax is better than cap and trade
Post by freediver on Feb 11th, 2012 at 3:25pm

Soren wrote on Feb 8th, 2012 at 8:14pm:

freediver wrote on Jan 4th, 2012 at 9:26am:
In the long run, it is community reaction, politics and government policy that will set the price. The mechanism only makes a difference over the short term - between a stable and a fluctuating price.

Under a tax, the government would gradually increase the price to meet whatever targets we have, and also adjust those targets based on the difficulty in achieving them (ie the price). Similarly for a trading scheme they would adjust how quickly the total emissions permitted is brought down, based on price and emissions reduction targets.



This shows your touching underlying belief that a government, any government, knows how to participate, devise, control and regulate a speculative futures market in an invisible, odourless gas that occurs naturally as the inevitable byproduct of life.


It is not an inevitable byproduct of life.

I am against the creation of a futures market.

Title: Re: a carbon tax is better than cap and trade
Post by Frantic on Nov 1st, 2012 at 12:23pm
This is a near dead thread that needs an injection.
The carbon tax/scheme is a stupid idea that will only promote and increase the relocation of heavy industry to the third world like it has already done in the e.u.
If the govt. was serious about reducing carbon emissions they would have built 3-5 nuke plants for a massive short term reduction followed by a long term plan of 90-100%renewables using equipment built here.
Instead we halve production of steel at BSL and cause global emissions to increase by almost 400,000 tons of CO2 :o and sack 2500 workers. Great plan

Title: Re: a carbon tax is better than cap and trade
Post by freediver on Nov 4th, 2012 at 2:38pm
Our targets for GHG emissions reductions are linked to those of the major foreign emitters.

Title: Re: a carbon tax is better than cap and trade
Post by Frantic on Nov 5th, 2012 at 9:31am
So does that mean we can increase our emissions like the E.U,USA, china, the u.k and india?
Or do we just follow their "published" figures which do not include imports of both goods, power and gas?
Goods imported into the E.U/U.k have gone up by 250-300% over their carbon tax scheme.Which means actuall carbon CONSUMPTION has increase in the U.K by around 25%, not the decrease they publish!
Power and gas is imported from russia to numerous euro countries with places like finland the most obvious measuring device. Before GFC they where importing 25% of their power, after during the recession that droped to single figures but is starting to ramp up again. None of this is counted against their emissions :o
Meanwhile we have brownwashed people still saying the carbon tax/scheme is the best thing ever, blinkering out the rest of the world.

Title: Re: a carbon tax is better than cap and trade
Post by freediver on Nov 5th, 2012 at 12:42pm
The Carbon tax is the mechanism to achieve reductions. It is pretty much a separate issue from how much to reduce emissions or which emissions are counted.

I would be interested to know where you got your info from on Finland. Normally emissions are counted where the fuels are burnt.

Title: Re: a carbon tax is better than cap and trade
Post by Frantic on Nov 5th, 2012 at 4:04pm

freediver wrote on Nov 5th, 2012 at 12:42pm:
The Carbon tax is the mechanism to achieve reductions. It is pretty much a separate issue from how much to reduce emissions or which emissions are counted.

I would be interested to know where you got your info from on Finland. Normally emissions are counted where the fuels are burnt.

Stats Finland look up Finland carbon consumption ( won't let me post link) >:(
13% in 2010 and about 15% in 09
Go do a search on uk carbon consumption here's a start:
.theecologist.org/
All a tax has done is provide more incentive to move high emission industry out so you now have uk/eu industry stagnating while their big manufacturers build in china or get free credits like their steel makers.
The next report from DEFRA ,the uk govt org that is not only watching emissions but consumtion is due dec 13 should be interesting ;) According to the uk govt to 05 , 15years into the carbon scheme consumption had caused an increase of 35% in uk caused emissions of co2. Because of the GFC this had dropped to 20% over 1990 levels in 08-09.

Title: Re: a carbon tax is better than cap and trade
Post by damien on Jan 13th, 2013 at 4:55pm
Yeh, isn't it a bummer when you cannot post a link. That means that you cannot provide backup or evidence of anything that you are posting or replying to. Have to wait until you hit 100 posts. Never heard of this anywhere else.

Title: Re: a carbon tax is better than cap and trade
Post by Deathridesahorse on Jan 25th, 2013 at 2:17pm

Soren wrote on Feb 8th, 2012 at 8:14pm:

freediver wrote on Jan 4th, 2012 at 9:26am:
In the long run, it is community reaction, politics and government policy that will set the price. The mechanism only makes a difference over the short term - between a stable and a fluctuating price.

Under a tax, the government would gradually increase the price to meet whatever targets we have, and also adjust those targets based on the difficulty in achieving them (ie the price). Similarly for a trading scheme they would adjust how quickly the total emissions permitted is brought down, based on price and emissions reduction targets.



This shows your touching underlying belief that a government, any government, knows how to participate, devise, control and regulate a speculative futures market in an invisible, odourless gas that occurs naturally as the inevitable byproduct of life.

Releasing the emissions of long buried fossil fuels on an industrial scale is not the inevitable byproduct of life!

  :o :o :o :o :o

Title: Re: a carbon tax is better than cap and trade
Post by damien on Jan 25th, 2013 at 2:48pm
If this government was really serious about cutting pollution they would either car pool or ride a bike instead of each of them having a guzzler.

Then they would also cut out most of the lighting that they waste in parliament house.

Then they would shut up - keeping quite will stop hot air.

;D :D ;D :D ;D :D ;D :D ;D :D ;D :D ;D :D ;D :D ;D :D ;D :D ;D :D    ;D    :D    ;D    :D    ;D    :D    ;D

Title: Re: a carbon tax is better than cap and trade
Post by Deathridesahorse on Jan 25th, 2013 at 3:48pm

damien wrote on Jan 25th, 2013 at 2:48pm:
If this government was really serious about cutting pollution they would either car pool or ride a bike instead of each of them having a guzzler.

Then they would also cut out most of the lighting that they waste in parliament house.

Then they would shut up - keeping quite will stop hot air.

;D :D ;D :D ;D :D ;D :D ;D :D ;D :D ;D :D ;D :D ;D :D ;D :D ;D :D ;D :D ;D :D ;D :D ;D

How many trees does abbott want to plant??

Title: Re: a carbon tax is better than cap and trade
Post by damien on Jan 25th, 2013 at 6:40pm

BatteriesNotIncluded wrote on Jan 25th, 2013 at 3:48pm:

damien wrote on Jan 25th, 2013 at 2:48pm:
If this government was really serious about cutting pollution they would either car pool or ride a bike instead of each of them having a guzzler.

Then they would also cut out most of the lighting that they waste in parliament house.

Then they would shut up - keeping quite will stop hot air.

;D :D ;D :D ;D :D ;D :D ;D :D ;D :D ;D :D ;D :D ;D :D ;D :D ;D :D ;D :D ;D :D ;D :D ;D

How many trees does abbott want to plant??


I don't know...but I betcha you're gonna tell us!! Backed by some proof.

So, how many has Juliar/Rudd/Duck/etc planted??

Title: Re: a carbon tax is better than cap and trade
Post by Deathridesahorse on Jan 27th, 2013 at 5:41pm
LOL, tryhard fascist damien thinks his words can make people do his homework!

Title: Re: a carbon tax is better than cap and trade
Post by damien on Jan 27th, 2013 at 8:32pm

BatteriesNotIncluded wrote on Jan 27th, 2013 at 5:41pm:
LOL, tryhard fascist damien thinks his words can make people do his homework!


Ah, the old "resort to name calling" when you cannot conduct a debate properly.

Sad!!

Title: Re: a carbon tax is better than cap and trade
Post by Sprintcyclist on Jan 27th, 2013 at 8:44pm


Quote:
........a carbon tax is better than cap and trade........


and having your testicles ripped off by a dog would be better than being garotted.

Title: Re: a carbon tax is better than cap and trade
Post by damien on Jan 28th, 2013 at 7:01am

BatteriesNotIncluded wrote on Jan 27th, 2013 at 5:41pm:
LOL, tryhard fascist damien thinks his words can make people do his homework!


You posed the original question - so you want people to do your homework also. Just like a little schoolkid that you look like?

Title: Re: a carbon tax is better than cap and trade
Post by Deathridesahorse on Jan 31st, 2013 at 8:41pm

damien wrote on Jan 28th, 2013 at 7:01am:

BatteriesNotIncluded wrote on Jan 27th, 2013 at 5:41pm:
LOL, tryhard fascist damien thinks his words can make people do his homework!


You posed the original question - so you want people to do your homework also. Just like a little schoolkid that you look like?

I don't care about the answer!  :o :o

Title: Re: a carbon tax is better than cap and trade
Post by DreamRyderX on Oct 25th, 2014 at 2:29pm
No Tax is better than any Tax ...... Period!

Global Warming was like playing Roulette & placing a $1,000,000 straight bet on #13

Climate Change is like playing Roulette & placing a $26,315 straight bet on each of the numbers (all 38). Makes it look like they can't lose.


Both are losing propositions, but sadly they want to bet using our money!

Title: Re: a carbon tax is better than cap and trade
Post by The Stunt-free Horse on Oct 25th, 2014 at 5:57pm

Panther wrote on Oct 25th, 2014 at 2:29pm:
No Tax is better than any Tax ...... Period!

Global Warming was like playing Roulette & placing a $1,000,000 straight bet on #13

Climate Change is like playing Roulette & placing a $26,315 straight bet on each of the numbers (all 38). Makes it look like they can't lose.


Both are losing propositions, but sadly they want to bet using our money!

playing with a double zero roulette wheel is suicide... like wtmatrix'ngfdood?  ;D ;D

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