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Member Run Boards >> Islam >> Muslim Women Don't See Themselves as Oppressed http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1232631004 Message started by abu_rashid on Jan 22nd, 2009 at 11:30pm |
Title: Muslim Women Don't See Themselves as Oppressed Post by abu_rashid on Jan 22nd, 2009 at 11:30pm
Muslim Women Don't See Themselves as Oppressed, Survey Finds
Article Tools Sponsored By By HELENA ANDREWS Published: June 8, 2006 WASHINGTON, June 7 — Muslim women do not think they are conditioned to accept second-class status or view themselves as oppressed, according to a survey released Tuesday by The Gallup Organization. According to the poll, conducted in 2005, a strong majority of Muslim women believe they should have the right to vote without influence, work outside the home and serve in the highest levels of government. In more than 8,000 face-to-face interviews conducted in eight predominantly Muslim countries, the survey found that many women in the Muslim world did not see sex issues as a priority because other issues were more pressing. When asked what they resented most about their own societies, a majority of Muslim women polled said that a lack of unity among Muslim nations, violent extremism, and political and economic corruption were their main concerns. The hijab, or head scarf, and burqa, the garment covering face and body, seen by some Westerners as tools of oppression, were never mentioned in the women's answers to the open-ended questions, the poll analysts said. Concerning women's rights in general, most Muslim women polled associated sex equality with the West. Seventy-eight percent of Moroccan women, 71 percent of Lebanese women and 48 percent of Saudi women polled linked legal equality with the West. Still, a majority of the respondents did not think adopting Western values would help the Muslim world's political and economic progress. The most frequent response to the question, "What do you admire least about the West?" was the general perception of moral decay, promiscuity and pornography that pollsters called the "Hollywood image" that is regarded as degrading to women. An overwhelming majority of the women polled in each country cited "attachment to moral and spiritual values" as the best aspect of their own societies. In Pakistan, 53 percent of the women polled said attachment to their religious beliefs was their country's most admirable trait. Similarly, in Egypt, 59 percent of the women surveyed cited love of their religion as the best aspect. At 97 percent, Lebanon had the highest percentage of women who said they believed they should be able to make their own voting decisions, followed by Egypt and Morocco at 95 percent. Pakistan was lowest, at 68 percent. The survey, "What Women Want: Listening to the Voices of Muslim Women," is a part of The Gallup World Poll, which plans to survey 95 percent of the earth's population over the next century. Dalia Mogahed, the strategic analyst of Muslim studies at The Gallup World Poll, said the new data provide fresh insight into the Muslim world, where Western perceptions generally cast women as victims. "Women's empowerment has been identified as a key goal of U.S. policy in the region," said Ms. Mogahed, adding that Muslim women's rights have generated a lot of interest without much empirical information on "what Muslim women want." Ms. Mogahed, who was born in Egypt and wears a Islamic head scarf, rejected the idea that Muslim women had been brainwashed by the dominant male culture, citing as proof the fact that women freely stated that they deserved certain rights. "In every culture there is a dominant narrative, and in many cases it is constructed by people in power who happen to be men," Ms. Mogahed said. Source: NY Times |
Title: Re: Muslim Women Don't See Themselves as Oppressed Post by tallowood on Jan 23rd, 2009 at 6:44am
"Muslim Women Don't See Themselves as Oppressed..."
I'm not surprised, their eyesight is obscured by all that staff on their faces. Also those women who dare to criticise Islam are abused and threatened with violence. Institutional Islamic Violence Against Women A man kills his daughter because she refused to wear hijab! |
Title: Re: Muslim Women Don't See Themselves as Oppressed Post by Calanen on Jan 23rd, 2009 at 6:46am
Stockholm syndrome
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Jump to: navigation, search For other uses, see Stockholm syndrome (disambiguation). Stockholm syndrome is a psychological response sometimes seen in abducted hostages, in which the hostage shows signs of loyalty to the hostage-taker, regardless of the danger or risk in which they have been placed. The syndrome is named after the Norrmalmstorg robbery of Kreditbanken at Norrmalmstorg, Stockholm, Sweden, in which the bank robbers held bank employees hostage from August 23 to August 28 in 1973. In this case, the victims became emotionally attached to their victimizers, and even defended their captors after they were freed from their six-day ordeal. The term "Stockholm Syndrome" was coined by the criminologist and psychiatrist Nils Bejerot, who assisted the police during the robbery, and referred to the syndrome in a news broadcast.[1] Kreditbanken at Norrmalmstorg, Stockholm"Stockholm syndrome" is not a medical term. In 2008, a group of scholars studied twelve highly-publicized cases of Stockholm syndrome, publishing their results in Acta Psychiatrica Scandinavia. They argued that, as the media accounts lacked "access to primary sources" or an "identification of a pattern of features exhibited in Stockholm syndrome," the characterization of any of these events as Stockholm syndrome could have been due to reporting bias.[2] Contents [hide] 1 Other uses 2 Psychoanalytic explanations 3 Potential examples of Stockholm syndrome 4 See also 5 Notes 6 External links Other uses Loyalty to a more powerful abuser – in spite of the danger that this loyalty puts the victim in – is common among victims of domestic abuse, battered partners and child abuse (dependent children). In many instances the victims choose to remain loyal to their abuser, and choose not to leave him or her, even when they are offered a safe placement in foster homes or safe houses. This mental phenomenon is also known as Trauma-Bonding or Bonding-to-the-Perpetrator. This syndrome was described by psychoanalysts of the object relations theory school (see Fairbairn) as the phenomenon of psychological identification with the more powerful abuser. A variant of Stockholm Syndrome includes cases of abusive parents and abusive siblings in which the victim, even after entering adulthood, still justifies the family abuse. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_syndrome |
Title: Re: Muslim Women Don't See Themselves as Oppressed Post by abu_rashid on Jan 23rd, 2009 at 7:00am I think you really insult the intelligence of Muslim women with these kinds of views. There's no doubting abuse of Muslim women exists, as abuse of all women exists, however I think abuse of Muslim women gets a bit too much airtime compared to others, in order to accentuate it. As for the reference to stockholm syndrome, that's pretty flimsy. Perhaps if widespread abuse was substantiated, you could perhaps begin to make a case. However if you actually knew Muslim women, you'd know a lot of them can be quite stubborn and opinionated, and strong in their character, especially Arab women, perhaps not so much Pakistani/Afghani women. Also you must consider that Indonesia is the worlds largest Muslim nation, and oppression is not associated with them so much. When the wife of a British ambassador travelled through the Ottoman Caliphate in the 18th. century, she was quite shocked to find that Ottoman women had many more rights than their British counterparts. Just because someone's wearing clothes, doesn't make them oppressed, such a view is pretty shallow. Kinda like insinuating all Western women are oppressed compared to Papuan women, because they have to cover their breasts in public. |
Title: Re: Muslim Women Don't See Themselves as Oppressed Post by freediver on Jan 23rd, 2009 at 11:24am Quote:
So what it's saying is that a majority of Muslim women reject Islamic law? Quote:
So rights should be judged on their economic impact? Quote:
Why is this even an issue? Do the men vote for them or something? I'm thinking of adding a wiki article on how Islam discriminates against women. Here's a start: Marriage partners: a man can marry four wives, including non-Muslims. A woman can only have a single husband who must be Muslim. A husband is allowed to beat his wife with a ????? A wife is expected to be subservient to her husband. She is expected to please him sexually on demand. Her rights to leave the house etc are at the whim of the husband. Clothing: A woman is only allowed to show her face in public. Any errors Abu? some more: inheritance - man gets double http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1227877786/42#42 wifely duties: http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1227877786/1#1 see also a husband's duties: 16. Admirable Jealousy -Ensure she is wearing proper hijab before leaving house -Restrict free mixing with non-mahram men wife beating: http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1227877786/35#35 with a miswak If the husband beats her too hard she can apply to the court to be allowed to beat him back in retaliation. Some jurists think full-on wife beating is 'permissable but not advisable' |
Title: Re: Muslim Women Don't See Themselves as Oppressed Post by Amadd on Jan 23rd, 2009 at 12:08pm
The muslim women agree because those who disagree are not muslim.
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=k_HVZrDdt4o&feature=PlayList&p=CDD1AE9C31786B1C&playnext=1&index=13 |
Title: Re: Muslim Women Don't See Themselves as Oppressed Post by abu_rashid on Jan 24th, 2009 at 3:03am
freediver,
Quote:
How on earth did you arrive at this conclusion? According to Islam, women have just as much right as men to elect their leader. No doubt those women see it as their Islamic right, which is being stolen from them by the American-backed puppet governments they live under. Besides, most Muslim countries allow women to vote anyway, Saudi Arabia does not, then again they don't let women drive either, both things which clearly contradict Islam. Just a little tidbit about women's suffrage in the world's most populous Muslim nation, Indonesia, which was under the enlightened European Dutch rule when women's suffrage was first won. However, it was only granted for women of European background... wasn't until 1941, that Indonesian women finally won the right to vote. Quote:
The economic and political conditions in the Muslim countries are the main problems. Most Muslims, even women confirm this. You seem to just swallow the standard propaganda line though that the problem with Muslim countries is based in the dress code for women. Quote:
Yes, it's all errors. I told you, I'm not particularly interested in helping you spread your vicious lies and hateful misrepresentations of Islam. They are nothing but your spin on the situation. |
Title: Re: Muslim Women Don't See Themselves as Oppressed Post by muso on Jan 26th, 2009 at 9:52am
From what I've seen of Muslim women in the UAE and Turkey in particular, it's Muslim men that are oppressed ;D
Some of those women seem to rule the household with an iron fist. |
Title: Re: Muslim Women Don't See Themselves as Oppressed Post by Jim Profit on Jan 26th, 2009 at 10:28am Ofcourse they don't think they're oppressed, they were raised that way. They weren't raised like us western folk. And maybe that's for the best... We bitch at them for being so arrogant and religious, oppressing their women. So what are we going to do? Kill them all and make them adhere to the principles of the west? "You'll tolerate this, this, and that and you'll like it!" Doesn't sound all that different to me... Instead of looking down on The Muslims maybe we should observe and learn from them... They have less crime, less depression, less uneducated vermin... When a Muslim kills themself, it's for a cause. When a western kills themself, it's cause they're sad. Muslims: 1. The West: 0. |
Title: Re: Muslim Women Don't See Themselves as Oppressed Post by mantra on Jan 26th, 2009 at 10:35am Quote:
Maybe most of the older women, but many of the young women who have had some exposure to the western lifestyle through the media - aren't so content with their lot. |
Title: Re: Muslim Women Don't See Themselves as Oppressed Post by freediver on Jan 26th, 2009 at 11:47am Quote:
Islam forbids democracy. Those women were claiming a right to vote for who they want without interference. Quote:
Crap. You are the one who told me that Islam rejects democracy. I have made it perfectly clear what my real issues with Islam are. Quote:
But you are doing so by not pointing out the errors you claim exist. Quote:
So what are the facts then? |
Title: Re: Muslim Women Don't See Themselves as Oppressed Post by abu_rashid on Jan 27th, 2009 at 9:26pm
Jim,
Quote:
Excellent points raised there. This is what totally amazes me about the Arab world. They are in such poverty and hard times, and there's no doubting this causes some strain on society and leads to some undesirable behaviour, but I think they've really held it altogether quite well and do surprisingly well considering their circumstances. When there's a slight economic slump in Western countries, crime skyrockets through the roof. Mantra, Quote:
Actually mantra, this might sound logical, but when we examine the facts and the history, we'll see it's a very different story. In Egypt for example, I've seen pictures of the "Older women" when they were teenagers, and they were all wearing mini-skirts, I was so shocked to see it. These are very respectable women in their 50's and 60's who I have only ever seen wearing hijab and they are quite practising Islamically.. today. However, back in the 1950's and 1960's, they were very much influenced by the West, to the point hardly anyone even wore hijab, and they wore clothes that were completely inappropriate. From today's generation though, you'll find very few Muslim girls in Egypt not wearing hijab, and this movement is coming from the youth themselves, not something imposed from above by the older generations as you might think. freediver, Quote:
As you're well aware, I don't consider electing a leader to be democracy, as is MISunderstood in common usage. Electing a representative to govern you is known as a republic. Please consult your dictionary on these two terms. Democracy is the ideology based around a republic, in which the elected government legislates according to the whims of the people. Yes Islam forbids democracy, as such a government system is morally bankrupt and will inevitably legislate evil. However Islam does not prohibit republic style of election of a leader, which is what these women are responding about. I guarantee you that if you worded the question along the lines of "Do you believe in being able to elect a leader who could legislate whatever they wanted (including legalising prositution/homosexuality/gambling/blasphemy etc and banning hijab in universities/government/holocaust_denial etc)?" Then they'd all 100% answer NO! Quote:
Translated from 'freediver-speak' to plain English: "If you don't help me write my little wiki, I'm going to write slanderous lies about your religion anyway" I couldn't care less what you do fd. You will espouse your bigoted xenophobic views whether I converse with you about them or I don't. Please stop bugging me about it, I told you plainly, I'm not interested... write what you like, it's merely a reflection on how small minded you are, than on Islam. I'll leave you in the company of your intellectual peers, Yadda and Grendel. Perhaps they can assist you in writing your wiki. Yadda's got Islamic quotes coming out of his ears. |
Title: Re: Muslim Women Don't See Themselves as Oppressed Post by Aussie on Jan 27th, 2009 at 9:48pm Quote:
Yeah, but I now know that in Islam, the physical abuse of women is institutionalised, sanctioned by All Mighty! Bugger off Abu, and the rest of ye. Get ye to Gaza. They need the numbers. I have nothing but disrespect for any form of physical abuse, even that which does not bruise nor draw blood.................! I have greater disrespect for a belief, e.g. Islam, which endorses it. |
Title: Re: Muslim Women Don't See Themselves as Oppressed Post by freediver on Jan 29th, 2009 at 9:24am Quote:
All that oil they dig up must be a huge drain on the coffers.... Quote:
Like Shites and Sunnis blowing each other up? Quote:
Unlike say, Afghanistan, where the taliban is blowing up girls' schools? Or perhaps you would attribute the closure to the will of the little Muslim girls who choose not to go to school now? Quote:
Language is defined by the common usage. Thus, electing a leader is democracy. Terms like direct democracy are used for more specific forms. In any case, however you define democracy, Islam opposes it. Quote:
Crap. You are totally missing the point of a republic if you think that's what it's about. Those women want to vote without inteference. Islam is all about interfering in who people can vote for. Islam places so many restrictions on voting that it makes it pretty much pointless. It turns democracy into one of those tin hat dictatorships where you can only vote for the one party. Quote:
Yet what those women supported was voting without interference, not some man claiming to speak on their behalf. No one with the slightest understanding of, or respect for democracy would ever claim 100% support for their position, especially by lumping together the opposite sex and claiming that what they really meant is the opposite of what they actually said. |
Title: Re: Muslim Women Don't See Themselves as Oppressed Post by abu_rashid on Jan 30th, 2009 at 5:18am Quote:
Never miss an opportunity to parade your ignorance do you fd? Out of the 22 Arab league states, only 6 of them are members of OPEC. Most of those 6 are tiny little emirates which contain very little of the population of the Arab world. The rest of the Arab world has very little oil, if any. Also, as you know, in some of those countries, the oil wealth is just squandered by the resident neo-colonialist puppet monarchies, and little if any of it reaches the people. Anyway the example I gave was Egypt, which is not really an oil rich country. Quote:
There's very few Shi'a in the Arab world. And most are in Iraq, they weren't blowing each other up till the US stuck their nose in there... Quote:
Ummm... last time I checked Afghanistan is not an Arabic country... anyway, no opportunity lost here, parade away. Quote:
Even if we run with that definition, you know there's a lot more implications to it. If it's just about electing a leader, and nothing more, then Islam has nothing against it, and your original point was moot (ie. that Islam rejects democracy). Quote:
Direct democracy shows that clearly democracy is not just about electing a leader. In fact it highlights the point that democracy isn't the leader electing part at all. Direct democracy is about the citizens themselves participating in legislation, and completely bypassing the need for an elected representative. This shows us that according to democratic principles electing a leader is just a matter of logistics, rather than a staple part of the system. Because it's not feasible for everyone to legislate, elected representatives do it for them. Quote:
Do you have any first hand experience with political opinions of women (or men for that matter) in Arabic countries fd? I doubt you do. I have spoken to quite a few about such issues, and what they want is to be able to elect a leader who will implement Islam, instead of the American appointed lackeys who now rule over them. If free and fair elections were to be held in Egypt (The largest Arab nation) right now, there's no doubting whatsoever that the Muslim Brotherhood would win, this is why the West would never encourage Egypt to become a democracy (ie. hold fair and free elections, accoring to your definition). You speak quite loudly about women's rights in Arabic countries, but I very much doubt you'd respect their decisions if they were actually able to vote. You already demonstrated this clearly on the Hamas issue (who are related to the MB annyway). Quote:
Islam doesn't place any restrictions on voting, it places restrictions on what kind of parties can exist though. ie. They must have Islam as their ideology, but this is just the same in the West, where they must have democracy/secularism as their ideology. Quote:
Tell me, in which Arabic country do men vote on behalf of women? And while you're at it, in which Arabic country does anyone evven get a chance to vote??? There's none. All of them are either monarchies or dictatorships, where the president always gets 100% of the vote. Quote:
Ok, maybe 100% was a bit overboard. But certainly the vast majority. |
Title: Re: Muslim Women Don't See Themselves as Oppressed Post by freediver on Jan 30th, 2009 at 2:29pm Quote:
Sorry, I didn't catch on that this was a race based argument. You are congratulating the Arabs for doing such a good job of living in squalor? Quote:
But it isn't an election if one faction selects all of the candidates, as is the case with Islam. It is a pretend election. Quote:
Yes, and Islam forbids letting the people elect a leader of their own choice. They can only elect a leader that was already chosen for them. I have no idea what you are trying to get at here. Whatever definition you use for democracy, Islam rejects it. Quote:
I never said you had to respect people just because they live in a democracy. I ahve explained this countless times Abu. Democracy is not a get out of jail free card. It is not some kind of break in the chain of causation. It is not a religion. Those who support it do not make it out to be something which it isn't. Quote:
Hence, Islam is fundamentally opposed to democracy. It matters not whether you say the limit is on who can stand for election, or who the people are allowed to choose. It's the same thing. Those women asked for the right to vote without interference, and you 'interpretted' this as them asking for you to take away the right to vote for whoever they want. Quote:
Crap. |
Title: Re: Muslim Women Don't See Themselves as Oppressed Post by mozzaok on Jan 30th, 2009 at 6:16pm
What I would like to know is, of all those women polled, how many felt it was their duty, to let their husbands, as leader of the family, help to choose what to write?
We know Islam is a patriarchal society, so unless there were systems in place, to ensure that women were speaking with absolute freedom, then I would hold serious reservations on the reliability of what is passed on, as their views. |
Title: Re: Muslim Women Don't See Themselves as Oppressed Post by freediver on Jan 30th, 2009 at 7:11pm Quote:
Of course, Abu interpretted this to mean that they want a system that denies them the right to vote for who they want and only allows them to vote for people approved by whatever the dominant Muslim faction is. |
Title: Re: Muslim Women Don't See Themselves as Oppressed Post by Lestat on Jan 31st, 2009 at 8:15am mozzaok wrote on Jan 30th, 2009 at 6:16pm:
How many? How many do you think..and do you have any evidence whatsoever to back up your claim. Do you actually know if their husbands DID choose what to write, or is this just an assumption? Or are you once again, doing what you do best.. Disguising ignorance as fact. |
Title: Re: Muslim Women Don't See Themselves as Oppressed Post by Lestat on Jan 31st, 2009 at 8:19am freediver wrote on Jan 30th, 2009 at 7:11pm:
Once again Freediver, a quick look at the facts exposes your ignorance. Every country that has had free elections in the ME has chosen an Islamic party. Palestine, Algeria, even Turkey has voted pro-Islamists. Iraq under US occupation has also chosen an Islamist based government. In municipal elections last in Egypt, the Islamic brotherhood won a record amount of seats...scaring Mubarak to the once again come down hard and jail members. If muslim lands truly had the choice to choose their futures...Islam would be the victor. The west knows this..which is why all this talk of 'democracy' in the ME is just empty rhetoric. The west will never allow 'democracy (or your shallow ignorant belief of what democracy is) will never be allowed to be implemented. THe west quite simply does not want muslims in arab lands to have the same choices that you and I have. |
Title: Re: Muslim Women Don't See Themselves as Oppressed Post by freediver on Jan 31st, 2009 at 10:21am Quote:
Duh. They voted for Muslims because most people are Muslims. But to say they are an Islamic party is absurd. Abu goes to great length to constantly point out that middle eastern governments are not true Islamic governments. It's like you will claim them as Islamic governments when it suits your argument, or blame the entire political situation on the west when it suits you. You can't have it both ways. Quote:
Crap lestat. The 'evil west' is setting up two democracies in the area as we speak. It is not possible to establish a democracy and successfully oppose the will of the people. The 'evil west' is doing more for democracy in the middle east than Muslims have ever done. Islam on the other hand is opposed to democracy, despite Abu's attempts to blur the definition of democracy so that anything involving voting is democratic, even if only Islamist candidates can run. You contradict yourself constantly. On the one hand the west is setting up pretend democracies where Islamists cannot run, but on the other hand Islamists are winning elections in democracies set up by the west. You ignore the reality and reinterpret the situation to suit whatever point you are making, even if it means giving contradictory interpretations in the same post. |
Title: Re: Muslim Women Don't See Themselves as Oppressed Post by Lestat on Jan 31st, 2009 at 11:35am freediver wrote on Jan 31st, 2009 at 10:21am:
Crap lestat. The 'evil west' is setting up two democracies in the area as we speak. It is not possible to establish a democracy and successfully oppose the will of the people. The 'evil west' is doing more for democracy in the middle east than Muslims have ever done. Islam on the other hand is opposed to democracy, despite Abu's attempts to blur the definition of democracy so that anything involving voting is democratic, even if only Islamist candidates can run. You contradict yourself constantly. On the one hand the west is setting up pretend democracies where Islamists cannot run, but on the other hand Islamists are winning elections in democracies set up by the west. You ignore the reality and reinterpret the situation to suit whatever point you are making, even if it means giving contradictory interpretations in the same post.[/quote] Ahh freediver...how naive you are. Go out, learn what the world 'democracy' means...educate yourself a little...then come back and we may chat. At the moment your continuously throwing out claims of 'contradictions' cause quite frankly...your ignorant and your way out of depth. Might explain why you flip and flop with your position, and why you consistently deliberatly misquote people. I suggest you first of all learn the difference between an Islamic state, and an Islamic party working within a secular democratic framework. I suspect that you will never understand the difference, then again..that does not really surprise me. your not that bright are you. |
Title: Re: Muslim Women Don't See Themselves as Oppressed Post by freediver on Jan 31st, 2009 at 12:00pm Quote:
Of course I know the difference. According to Abu, the former is Islamic, the latter is not Islamic. Islam is fundamentally opposed to democracy. |
Title: Re: Muslim Women Don't See Themselves as Oppressed Post by abu_rashid on Feb 1st, 2009 at 12:23am Quote:
Ah right.. democracies that pull down pieces of art because they insult the 'benefactors'?? A sculpture of a shoe erected in Iraq to honour a journalist who threw his footwear at George W Bush has been dismantled, reports say. Foreign media say the bronze-coloured fibre-glass shoe was removed from its site in the city of Tikrit on the orders of the local authorities. The simple fact is, the West doesn't want democracies in the Middle East, because the people's views are not in line with hers. If Iraq is truly left to be 'democratic' they know that parties will arise who oppose Israel and oppose U.S presence etc. and want Islam... therefore they'll have to 'intervene'. What they're counting on at present is that they can successfully divide the people along sectarian lines, so that they can prevent them ever unanimously agreeing on such things, and then they can slowly pull out, not unlike what the British and French did across the Middle East all those years ago. Quote:
The original discussion was about Arab states. Scroll back and see for yourself. |
Title: Re: Muslim Women Don't See Themselves as Oppressed Post by freediver on Feb 1st, 2009 at 9:07am Quote:
Yes they do. To claim otherwise is just absurd. The west has more faith in the choices of Muslims than Islam does. Quote:
ABu, Muslims are more than capable of doing that themselves. You can't blame everything on the west. |
Title: Re: Muslim Women Don't See Themselves as Oppressed Post by Lestat on Feb 1st, 2009 at 6:19pm freediver wrote on Feb 1st, 2009 at 9:07am:
ABu, Muslims are more than capable of doing that themselves. You can't blame everything on the west.[/quote] Yet you blame everything on Islam.... |
Title: Re: Muslim Women Don't See Themselves as Oppressed Post by abu_rashid on Feb 1st, 2009 at 9:00pm Quote:
As we saw with Hamas, they don't like the choices Muslims generally make. Also their long history of supporting dictators in the Middle East, tends to indicate they're not serious about it. Yes it's nice to talk about, but in reality their policy has always been to prop up dictators, it's more profitable and keeps the region stable for their interests, and for Israel's. You can claim absurdities all you like, but it all flies in the face of the reality we've seen for the past 80 years. Quote:
Again, history tends to prove you incorrect. The sectarian violence we see today is undoubtably a direct result of the U.S invasion. I would also contend that it's most likely the U.S engaged in some 'covert' operations that sparked a lot of it off. Prior to the sectarian violence erupting, Sunni and Shi'a groups were often resisting the U.S jointly, even if not physically, they provided logistics and intelligence information to one another in their common struggle against the invasion forces. We also know the motto of the West has long been "Divide and rule". The sectarian violence has also been a very convenient excuse for the U.S to justify their continued presence. It's obviously hard to prove, but the motives are quite strong and the fact that the violence has pretty much no history, tends to indicate there's a force that's inciting and feeding it. |
Title: Re: Muslim Women Don't See Themselves as Oppressed Post by freediver on Feb 1st, 2009 at 9:18pm Quote:
What do I blame on Islam Lestat? Quote:
And as I pointed out, repeatedly, supporting democracy does not give you free reign to launch rockets into neighbouring countries. You seem to have no idea at all what supporting democracy is all about. It does not mean that you approve of every single outcome, no matter how vile, just because some group of people voted for it. It never has done and never will. If you cannot understand this simple point, then you cannot understand what democracy is really about. Repeating it over and over again and ignoring the responses you get doesn't add weight to your absurd claim. Quote:
Your statements fly in the face of the current reality. The west is setting up two democracies. There is no way around that Abu. It is a fact. Quote:
And Muslims just fell into line and started blowing each other up? Is this part of the creed of coming to the dfense of every Muslim, no matter how vile their actions? |
Title: Re: Muslim Women Don't See Themselves as Oppressed Post by abu_rashid on Feb 1st, 2009 at 9:38pm Quote:
Actually it's you who has no idea. Supporting democracy is a load of bollocks, and the U.S would never support a democracy, unless they can guarantee 'friendlies'' will take the helm. Deep down you know it to be true, you're just hiding behind this ridiculous argument that "democracy is not a license". Egypt for instance is the largest Arab country, and it's well known the Muslim Brotherhood (the parent group of Hamas) has the strongest support there, even when running as independants (because they're banned as a party, as are any Islamic parties), they always blitz any half fair election. Now, do you honestly mean to tell me, the U.S would like to see fair and free elections held in Egypt? Can you tell me why they pour billions of dollars a year into propping up the current regime, if what they really sincerely want is the 'will of the people'??? You're not connected with reality fd. Quote:
We will see how things pan out when/if the U.S pulls out of Iraq. The Shi'a majority have quite clearly declared they merely 'used' the U.S to get rid of Saddam, let's see how they begin acting once the U.S pulls out. As for Afghanistan, more than half the country is controlled by the Talibaan, give me a break. Quote:
All it would've taken would be one bomb strategically detonated at a Shi'a shrine, and that alone could account for all the subsequent violence we've seen. Shi'as then begin attacking Sunni neighbourhoods and so the cycle of violence began... You didn't address the fact that historically, no such sectarian violence existed. |
Title: Re: Muslim Women Don't See Themselves as Oppressed Post by freediver on Feb 1st, 2009 at 9:49pm Quote:
Abu you cannot set up a democracy in a hostile place like Iraq or Afghanistan an expect any kind of guarantee about the outcome. It is a huge gamble, and it shows that the US has more faith in Muslims to think for themselves than Islam does. Quote:
No Abu, I am 'hiding' behind the fact that the US is creating two new democracies. Quote:
And it is America's fault that Muslims are so easy to 'trick' into slaughtering each other. If it is so easy, there would be no need for the US to ignite anything. It would be inevitable. It is inevitable. Hopefully they'll come to their senses after the more extreme ones have slughtered each other, and whatever children get in their way. Quote:
Is this that fairytale version of history again? |
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