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Message started by locutius on Jan 15th, 2009 at 2:27pm

Title: Taking Jews and Christians as friends
Post by locutius on Jan 15th, 2009 at 2:27pm
BUMP.

Can't see the original point of reference that started the friendship debate but I think it was Yadda or Soren. I will keep looking because I thought they had a quote from the Koran or Hadith.

Title: Re: A Question For Those Against Islam
Post by Calanen on Jan 15th, 2009 at 7:30pm
August 22, 2007  Wednesday  Sha’aban 8, 1428  

Minister blasts pro-US foreign policy

By Our Staff Reporter

ISLAMABAD, Aug 21: Federal Minister for Parliamentary Affairs Dr Sher Afgan Niazi on Tuesday stunned both the treasury and opposition senators when he roundly criticised the foreign policy, describing it as one of appeasement at the cost of national interests, sovereignty and honour.

He also condemned recently-passed US legislation and the derogatory statements about Pakistan made by some American presidential candidates.

Muttahida Majlis-i-Amal’s Prof Khurshid Ahmed immediately stood up to endorse most of the views expressed by the minister, and welcomed the “change of heart,” describing it as part of the change that had taken place in the wake of the July 20 landmark Supreme Court judgment.

Interestingly, taking cognizance of the strongly-worded speech of the minister, the Foreign Office reacted officially, saying that only the foreign minister’s statement would be true representation of Pakistan’s foreign policy and Pakistan’s relations with various countries.

However, not a single PPP or the PML-N lawmaker took part in the debate during which statements of US presidential candidates and a recently-approved Pakistan-specific law were severely criticised.

Commenting on the statements made in the Senate on Tuesday, a spokesperson for the Ministry of Foreign Affairs said that the foreign mQinister would wind up the debate on the subject on Aug 22.

Dr Niazi said in his speech that the key role Pakistan played in bringing about the downfall of the former Soviet Union was a blunder. It resulted in the emergence of a unipolar world and gave the US a licence to attack any country it wished, he said.

He said that American presidential candidates’ statements threatening Pakistan’s internal security were a reflection of the jaundiced thinking of US leaders who had forgotten lessons of history and the glorious past of Muslims.

Lashing out at the recent US law attaching strings to financial assistance to Pakistan, Dr Niazi described it as insulting and demanded that “we must return and refuse to accept such assistance”.

He said the country should learn to stand on its own feet by rejecting all foreign assistance as a proud Muslim nation.

Recounting events of the 1971 war with India and the country’s dismemberment, he said Islamabad kept waiting for the arrival of the Sixth US fleet in the Bay of Bengal as had been promised by the then US government. But the fleet never turned up, he said, adding that no good should be expected of the US in future as well.

He said while the US officials never stopped the mantra of “do more”, ignoring the fact that Islamabad had rendered tremendous sacrifices in the war on terror, the US signed a civil nuclear agreement with India, instead of Pakistan. He said while India was encouraged when it had carried out nuclear tests in 1974 and 1998, heavy sanctions were slapped on Pakistan when it conducted nuclear tests and aspersions were still being cast on nuclear assets of the country.

The minister said that events which followed the 9/11 incident proved that it was the brainchild of Jews. He said that according to holy Quran, Jews and Christians could never be friends of Muslims.

Prof Khurshid Ahmed of the MMA said that the American presidential candidates’ statements had exposed Gen Musharraf’s US-centric policies, because after staking everything, national interest, pride and sovereignty Pakistan was still accused of doing little in the so-called war on terror.

He said while the Iranian leadership had staunchly resisted the US pressure with full backing of its people, Pakistan’s military government had abjectly surrendered to the US dictates because of lack of genuine support from the people.

He accused Gen Musharraf of compromising everything on a single telephone call of the American President.

Treasury bench members Nisar Memon and Anwar Bhinder supported President Musharraf’s foreign policy, saying it was based on “ground realities”.

Dr Kausar Firdaus called for review and revision of the foreign policy, and said the government should consider withdrawing Pakistan from the so-called war on terror that had cost the country dearly in terms of losses of life and national dignity.

Senator Shahid Bugti said that an individual had put the country’s solidarity at risk only to prolong his rule.

http://www.dawn.com/2007/08/22/top6.htm


Title: Re: A Question For Those Against Islam
Post by Calanen on Jan 15th, 2009 at 7:36pm

locutius wrote on Jan 15th, 2009 at 2:27pm:
BUMP.

Can't see the original point of reference that started the friendship debate but I think it was Yadda or Soren....


Allah forbids His believing servants from having Jews and Christians as friends, because they are the enemies of Islam and its people, may Allah curse them. Allah then states that they are friends of each other and He gives a warning threat to those who do this,

وَمَن يَتَوَلَّهُمْ مِّنكُمْ فَإِنَّهُ مِنْهُمْ﴾

(And if any among you befriends them, then surely he is one of them.)

Ibn Abi Hatim recorded that `Umar ordered Abu Musa Al-Ash`ari to send him on one sheet of balance the count of what he took in and what he spent. Abu Musa then had a Christian scribe, and he was able to comply with `Umar's demand. `Umar liked what he saw and exclaimed, "This scribe is proficient. Would you read in the Masjid a letter that came to us from Ash-Sham'' Abu Musa said, `He cannot.'' `Umar said, "Is he not pure'' Abu Musa said, "No, but he is Christian.'' Abu Musa said, "So `Umar admonished me and poked my thigh (with his finger), saying, `Drive him out (from Al-Madinah).' He then recited,

﴿يَـأَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ ءَامَنُواْ لاَ تَتَّخِذُواْ الْيَهُودَ وَالنَّصَـرَى أَوْلِيَآءَ﴾

(O you who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians as friends...)'' Then he reported that `Abdullah bin `Utbah said, "Let one of you beware that he might be a Jew or a Christian, while unaware.'' The narrator of this statement said, "We thought that he was referring to the Ayah,

﴿يَـأَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ ءَامَنُواْ لاَ تَتَّخِذُواْ الْيَهُودَ وَالنَّصَـرَى أَوْلِيَآءَ﴾

(O you who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians as friends, )'' Allah said,

﴿فَتَرَى الَّذِينَ فِى قُلُوبِهِم مَّرَضٌ﴾

(And you see those in whose hearts there is a disease...) A disease of doubt, hesitation and hypocrisy.﴿يُسَـرِعُونَ فِيهِمْ﴾

(they hurry to their friendship,) meaning, they rush to offer them their friendship and allegiances in secret and in public,

﴿يَقُولُونَ نَخْشَى أَن تُصِيبَنَا دَآئِرَةٌ﴾

(saying: "We fear lest some misfortune of a disaster may befall us.") They thus offer this excuse for their friendship and allegiances to the disbelievers, saying that they fear that the disbelievers might defeat the Muslims, so they want to be in favor with the Jews and Christians, to use this favor for their benefit in that eventuality! Allah replied,

﴿فَعَسَى اللَّهُ أَن يَأْتِىَ بِالْفَتْحِ﴾

(Perhaps Allah may bring a victory...) referring to the conquering of Makkah, according to As-Suddi.

﴿أَوْ أَمْرٍ مِّنْ عِندِهِ﴾

(or a decision according to His will) requiring the Jews and Christians to pay the Jizyah, as As-Suddi stated,

﴿فَيُصْبِحُواْ﴾

(Then they will become) meaning, the hypocrites who gave their friendship to the Jews and Christians, will become,

﴿عَلَى مَآ أَسَرُّواْ فِى أَنفُسِهِمْ﴾

(for what they have been keeping as a secret in themselves) of allegiances,

﴿نَـدِمِينَ﴾


(regretful,) for their friendship with the Jews and Christians which did not benefit them or protect them from any harm. Rather, it was nothing but harm, as Allah exposed their true reality to His faithful servants in this life, although they tried to conceal it. When the signs that exposed their hypocrisy were compiled against them, their matter became clear to Allah's faithful servants. So the believers were amazed at these hypocrites who pretended to be believers, swearing to their faithfulness, yet their claims were all lies and deceit. This is why Allah said, s


﴿وَيَقُولُ الَّذِينَ ءَامَنُواْ أَهُـؤُلاءِ الَّذِينَ أَقْسَمُواْ بِاللَّهِ جَهْدَ أَيْمَـنِهِمْ إِنَّهُمْ لَمَعَكُمْ حَبِطَتْ أَعْمَـلُهُمْ فَأَصْبَحُواْ خَـسِرِينَ ﴾


(And those who believe will say, "Are these the men who swore their strongest oaths by Allah that they were with you'' All that they did has been in vain, and they have become the losers.)


﴿يأَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ ءَامَنُواْ مَن يَرْتَدَّ مِنكُمْ عَن دِينِهِ فَسَوْفَ يَأْتِى اللَّهُ بِقَوْمٍ يُحِبُّهُمْ وَيُحِبُّونَهُ أَذِلَّةٍ عَلَى الْمُؤْمِنِينَ أَعِزَّةٍ عَلَى الْكَـفِرِينَ يُجَـهِدُونَ فِى سَبِيلِ اللَّهِ وَلاَ يَخَـفُونَ لَوْمَةَ لائِمٍ ذلِكَ فَضْلُ اللَّهِ يُؤْتِيهِ مَن يَشَآءُ وَاللَّهُ وَسِعٌ عَلِيمٌ - إِنَّمَا وَلِيُّكُمُ اللَّهُ وَرَسُولُهُ وَالَّذِينَ ءَامَنُواْ الَّذِينَ يُقِيمُونَ الصَّلوةَ وَيُؤْتُونَ الزَّكَوةَ وَهُمْ رَاكِعُونَ - وَمَن يَتَوَلَّ اللَّهَ وَرَسُولَهُ وَالَّذِينَ ءَامَنُواْ فَإِنَّ حِزْبَ اللَّهِ هُمُ الْغَـلِبُونَ ﴾


(54. O you who believe! Whoever from among you turns back from his religion (Islam), Allah will bring a people whom He will love and they will love Him; humble towards the believers, stern towards the disbelievers, fighting in the way of Allah, and never fearing the blame of the blamers. That is the grace of Allah which He bestows on whom He wills. And Allah is All-Sufficient for His creatures' needs, All-Knower.) (55. Verily, your Protector is Allah, His Messenger, and the believers, those who perform the Salah, and give Zakah, and they bow down.) (56. And whosoever takes Allah, His Messenger, and those who have believed, as protectors, then the party of Allah will be the victorious.)

http://abdurrahman.org/qurantafseer/ibnkathir/

Clear enough for you? The Arabic is even there so no one can say - bad translation

Title: Re: A Question For Those Against Islam
Post by abu_rashid on Jan 15th, 2009 at 7:44pm
No the same problem exists Calanen, the Arabic word there is awliya, not Sadiq or Sahib or Rafiq or Khalil or Habib or any of the other words in Arabic that refer to friends. Awliya refers to guardians, protectors, governors and even allies, but not friends. All you've done is shown the Arabic text of the Qur'an which we already know says Awliya.

Btw. just to let you know, what you've posted there is not Arabic text with it's English translation. The English is translation from another text, which you've not included here.

Title: Re: A Question For Those Against Islam
Post by Calanen on Jan 15th, 2009 at 7:48pm

Quote:
Can't see the original point of reference that started the friendship debate but I think it was Yadda or Soren. I will keep looking because I thought they had a quote from the Koran or Hadith.


In answer to your question, the main verse of the Koran that you are referring to:


Quote:
005.051
YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust.
PICKTHAL: O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for friends. They are friends one to another. He among you who taketh them for friends is (one) of them. Lo! Allah guideth not wrongdoing folk.
SHAKIR: O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.




Title: Re: A Question For Those Against Islam
Post by Calanen on Jan 15th, 2009 at 7:51pm

abu_rashid wrote on Jan 15th, 2009 at 7:44pm:
Btw. just to let you know, what you've posted there is not Arabic text with it's English translation. The English is translation from another text, which you've not included here.


Ok, but I did my best. [Hang on a sec, the stuff in brackets after the text in Arabic, seems to approximate it/]

This was not just the Koran that was being quoted, but Ibn Kathir commenting on it.

Title: Re: A Question For Those Against Islam
Post by abu_rashid on Jan 15th, 2009 at 8:14pm

Quote:
[Hang on a sec, the stuff in brackets after the text in Arabic, seems to approximate it


The English is a translation of Ibn Kathir's exegesis of the Qur'anic verse which is quoted here in Arabic.


Quote:
This was not just the Koran that was being quoted, but Ibn Kathir commenting on it.


Yes, but your claim was that the Arabic text is there to see... so it can't be a mistranslation, which as I'm sure you'll realise is bollocks. the Arabic text still just says awliya, so you haven't provided anything new at all.

Title: Re: A Question For Those Against Islam
Post by Calanen on Jan 15th, 2009 at 8:16pm
Ibn Kathir seems to be pretty clear about what it means. He's a scholar with a bit more street cred in the Islamic world than your own good self.

Title: Re: A Question For Those Against Islam
Post by abu_rashid on Jan 15th, 2009 at 9:45pm
Yes Ibn Kathir is quite a respected exegete of the Qur'an, but it's still just an English translation, the original word he's using (that's translated here as friends) is most likely still awliya. So as I said, you've added nothing new to the equation.

Title: Re: A Question For Those Against Islam
Post by Calanen on Jan 16th, 2009 at 11:19am
Let's have a look at what some other people have to say then. How about a journal article:

Foreign Policy of an Islamic State
by  
Ibrahim Amini

http://www.al-islam.org/al-tawhid/foreign_policy/title.htm

The Quran and Exposure of the Enemies

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Islam has paid due attention to the independence of the Muslim Ummah, and for this very reason it has suggested certain measures to prevent any kind, of alien interference in the internal affairs of an Islamic State on the part of the non‑Muslims. The Quranic imperatives are categorical in this regard. In some of the Quranic verses the evil designs and targets of the plotting unbelievers are fully exposed, so that Muslims should not he deceived by their hypocritical attitude.

They also suggest how this challenge should be met. A few relevant verses are quoted here:

The unbelievers of the People of the Book (the Jews and the Christians) and the idolaters do not like that any good should be sent down to you from your Lord, and God chooses especially whom He pleases for His mercy, and God is of bounty abounding. (2:105)

If you are visited with good fortune it vexes them, and if an evil afflicts you, they rejoice at it. Yet if you are patient and God‑fearing, their evil designs will not harm you in any way; God encompasses the things they do. (3:120)

Many of the People of the Book wish that they might restore you as unbelievers, after you have believed, in the jealousy of their souls after the truth has become manifest to them; yet do you pardon and forgive, till God brings His command; truly God is powerful over everything. (2:109)

O believers, if you obey a sect of those who have been given the Book, they will turn you after you have believed, into unbelievers. (3:100)

O believers, if you obey the unbelievers they will turn you upon your heels, so that you turn back losers. No; but God is your Protector and He is the best of helpers. (3:149‑150)

So for their breaking their covenant We cursed them and made their hearts hard; they pervert words from their meanings; and they have forgotten a portion of what they were reminded of; and you shall always discover treachery in them excepting a few of them. Yet pardon them, and forgive; surely Allah loves the good‑doers. (5:13)

Never will the Jews be pleased with you, neither the Christians, not till you follow their religion. Say: "Surely God's guidance is the [only] true guidance." And if you follow their caprices after the knowledge that has come to you, you shall have against God neither protector nor helper. (2:120)

How can it be? If they get the better of you, they will not observe towards you any bond or treaty, giving you satisfaction with their mouths while their hearts do not consent; and most of them are transgressors. They have sold the signs o f God for a small price, and have barred from His way; surely evil is that they have been doing, observing neither bond nor treaty towards a believer; they are the transgressors. (9:8‑10)

Ha, there you are; you love them while they love you not; you believe in the Book, all of it, and when they meet you they say, `We believe,' and when they go privily, they bite at you their fingers. Say: Die in your rage;' surely God knows what is in the hearts. (3:119)

As for the unbelievers, they are friends one of another. Unless you do this, there will be persecution an the earth and great corruption. (8:73)

These verses disclose the evil motives, secret designs, and the essential characteristics of the unbelievers, some of which are given below:

1. If any good fortune comes to you, the unbelievers and polytheists are unhappy, for they do not like to see you benefited from anything. They are happy if some misfortune befalls you.

2. The unbelievers nurture jealousy for you and wish to turn you back from your faith.

3. If you obey the unbelievers they would make you give up your faith.

4. The unbelievers are dishonest in dealings with you, and you ought to be always aware of their evil intentions.

5. The Jews and the Christians shall never accept you unless you embrace their faith.

6. Their pacts and covenants are unreliable. If they find means of subordinating you, they will violate all the treaties and compacts that they earlier signed with you.

7. The unbelievers shall never be friendly with you, even though you treat them as friends.

8. The unbelievers are united in friendship against you and shall cooperate with one another to inflict losses on you.

God, the Almighty, has warned Muslims of the malice, enmity, dishonesty, and subversive nature of the unbelievers so that Muslims may be conscious of the fact that they can never be trusted as friends and well‑wishers. It is imperative to keep them at a distance and to strengthen your defences.

Title: Re: A Question For Those Against Islam
Post by Calanen on Jan 16th, 2009 at 11:20am
God places great emphasis on the defence of the freedom and independence of Islam against the dangers posed by the evil plots of its enemies. After enumerating some of the characteristics of the unbelievers and their evil objectives, God warns Muslims of the dangers of being friendly with them, placing reliance on them, and against surrendering their resources and powers to them. He warns them against following the unbelievers and thus directly or indirectly helping them in realizing their objectives. The Islamic State should not form friendly alliances with the unbelievers, nor are their covenants to be fully trusted. Some Quranic verses in this context may be referred to:



O believers, take not for your intimates outside yourselves; such men spare nothing to ruin you; they yearn for you to suffer. Hatred has already shown itself of their mouths, and what their breasts conceal is yet greater. Indeed, We have made Our signs clear to you, if you understand them. (3:118)



O believers, do not take the Jews and Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, he is one of them. Surely God does notguide the evildoers. (5:51)



O believers, do not take for guardians those who take your religion for a mockery and a joke, from among those who were given the Book before you and the unbelievers; and fear God, if you are believers. (5:57)



O believers, do not take My enemy and your enemy for friends; would you offer them love while they deny what has come to you of the Truth, expelling the Apostle and yourselves because you believe in God, your Lord? If you go forth to struggle in My path and seek My good pleasure, would you show love for them in secret? And I know what you conceal and what you manifest, and whoever of you does this, he indeed has gone astray from the straight path. (60:1)



O believers, do not take the unbelievers for friends rather than the believers, do you desire that you should give to Allah a manifest proof against yourselves? (4:144)



O believers, do not make friends with a people with whom God is wroth; indeed they despair of the Hereafter as the unbelievers despair of those in graves. (60:13)



Let not the believers take the unbelievers for friends rather than believers; for whoso does that belongs not to God in anything, unless you have a fear of them. God warns you that you beware of Him, and unto God is the eventual coming. (3:28)

In addition to the traits of the unbelievers enumerated earlier the following can also be inferred from the verses quoted above:

1. The unbelievers nurture malice towards the believers and do not spare anything for harming them in any possible way.

2. Their enmity of Muslims finds expression in what they say, but the intensity of their unexpressed enmity, hidden in their hearts, is far greater.

3. They can never accept your religion and they make fun of it.

4. They are enemies of Muslims and of God, and do not accept the Quranic teachings.

God, after warning us of the characteristics of the unbelievers, makes it explicit that they are not well‑wishing friends of the believers and the believers should not consider them as their friends, guardians, and defenders, and should not reveal their secrets to them. They are un­trustworthy and so are their pacts and promises. The Muslims should not allow them to plan on their behalf and to decide for them. They should not let the unbelievers take charge of their institutions and decide their policies and execute their programmes, and they should not let themselves be deceived by their apparently well‑wishing but inwardly injurious suggestions. This point is repeatedly stressed, and finally it is declared that a Muslim who males any pact of friendship and alliance with the unbelievers ceases to be one of the Islamic Ummah and the Party of God.

Friendship with unbelievers is considered even as a sign of disbelief

And had they believed in God and the Prophet (S) and what was revealed to him, they would not have taken them (the unbelievers) for friends, but most of them are transgressors. (5:81)

You shall not find a people who believe in Allah and the Last Day be­friending those who act in opposition to Allah and His Apostle, even though they were their [own] fathers, or their sons, or their brothers, or their kinsfolk. (58:22)

In these Quranic verses the basic guide‑lines of an Islamic govern­ment's external policy in relation to the countries having no faith in God is clearly and explicitly laid down. Muslims are categorically commanded to guard and defend their independence and freedom, and not let the unbelievers to infiltrate and interfere in their internal affairs. Muslims are asked to be on guard against them. All relations and pacts which would ultimately lead to the increasing influence and domination of unbelievers over the affairs of Muslims are illegitimate and must be abstained from. The Quranic injunction in this regard is not only clear but also categorical:

... And Allah will by no means give the unbelievers a way against the believer‑s [to dominate them]. (4:141)




Title: Re: A Question For Those Against Islam
Post by Calanen on Jan 16th, 2009 at 11:31am
Section 8

The relation of the Muslims with their opponents

To treat the Jews and Christians as enemies -Only Allah and His Messenger and those who believe, establish prayer and give the poor-rate are the Guardians of the Muslims

يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُواْ لاَ تَتَّخِذُواْ الْيَهُودَ وَالنَّصَارَى أَوْلِيَاء بَعْضُهُمْ أَوْلِيَاء بَعْضٍ وَمَن يَتَوَلَّهُم مِّنكُمْ فَإِنَّهُ مِنْهُمْ إِنَّ اللّهَ لاَ يَهْدِي الْقَوْمَ الظَّالِمِينَ {51}


51. "O' you who have Faith! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends. They are friends of each other. And whoever among you takes them for friends, then surely he is one of them. Verily Allah does not guide the unjust people."



Commentary:

To Dissociate from Enemy is the Condition of Faith.

Those Islamic governments who have the relation of friendship and accepting the sovereignty of the infidels are counted among them:

"... And whoever among you takes them for friends, then surely he is one of them....."

In foreign relations and policy, master ship and domination of infidels over Muslims is forbidden, because the Holy Qur'an explicitly has absolutely prohibited any domination, of any kind, over Muslims, although it may be under the name of experienced, specialist, expert, attaché and tourist. The verse says:

[Remeber that, multicultists]

"O' you who have Faith! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends. They are friends of each other. And whoever among you takes them for friends, then surely he is one of them. Verily Allah does not guide the unjust people."

In the meantime, mentioning the Jews and the Christians in the verse is for giving examples of this meaning, and no master ship of any infidel should be accepted.

It is understood, of course, from some other verses of the Qur'an that enjoying the food staff produced by infidels, which are not from the animal flesh, and bargaining with them are allowed, because none of them is rendered into the sense of accepting the sovereignty of infidels.

http://www.al-islam.org/enlightening-vol4/

From Commentary of the Holy Quran - Volume 4
 
by  
Ayatullah Sayyid Kamal Faqih Imani and a Group of Muslim Scholars


Title: Re: A Question For Those Against Islam
Post by Calanen on Jan 16th, 2009 at 11:39am
G- Difference between Islam and Christianity  

It is said about Christianity that it has the distinction of not having any rule governing war. We, on the other hand, say that Islam has the distinction of having the law of jihad. If we look closely, we see that in Christianity there is no jihad because it has nothing at all. By which I mean that there is no Christian structure of society, no Christian legal system, and no Christian rules as to how a society is to be formed, for these to contain a law of jihad.

There is no substance in Christianity; it contains no more than a few moral teachings that form a set of advice such as "tell the truth", "do not tell lies", "do not gobble up the wealth of others", and so on. Such things do not call for jihad? Islam however is a religion that sees it its duty and commitment to form an Islamic state.

Islam came to reform society and to form a nation and government. Its mandate is the reform of the whole world.  

Such a religion cannot be indifferent. It cannot be without a law of jihad.
In the same way, its government cannot be without an army.

While the scope of Christianity is extremely limited, that of Islam is extremely wide. While Christianity does not cross the frontiers of advice, Islam is a religion which covers all the activities of human life.

It has laws which govern the society, economic laws, and political laws. It came to organize a state, to organize a government. Once this done, how can it remain without an army? How can it be without a law of jihad?  

Jihad
The Holy War of Islam and Its Legitimacy in the Quran

Ayatullah Morteza Mutahhari

Translated by:
Mohammad Salman Tawhidi

http://www.al-islam.org/short/jihad/index.html

Title: Re: A Question For Those Against Islam
Post by Amadd on Jan 16th, 2009 at 12:20pm
I sure am glad that these are just mistranslations.

Imagine if people actually took it literally?  /sarc]

:o


Title: Re: A Question For Those Against Islam
Post by Calanen on Jan 18th, 2009 at 8:14pm
The problem is, we are applying our misunderstander infidel Islam to the interpretation of the true meaning of Islam. What we should do instead, is get some good Saudi textbooks for school kids, and see what they say the young people should believe.

That way, our infidel misunderstander wrongheaded imperialist biggotted fascist racism can be correct. Ok, then - let's do some learnin' shall we, and get edumacated:

http://www.hudson.org/files/pdf_upload/saudi_textbooks_final.pdf

Some choice examples:

Quote:
Selected Quotes:
2007-2008 Textbooks of the Saudi Ministry of Education

�� “The Jews and Christians are enemies of the believers, and they cannot approve of Muslims.”1

�� “The clash between this [Muslim] nation and the Jews and Christians has endured, and it will continue as long as
God wills.” 2

�� “He (praised is He) prohibits killing the soul that God has forbidden [to kill] unless for just cause… [such as]
unbelief after belief, adultery, and killing an inviolable believer intentionally.”3

�� “Major polytheism makes blood and wealth permissible.”4

�� “Building mosques on graves is an expression of polytheism” [Condemns Shiite practice] 5

�� “The punishment for homosexuality is death.”6 …“Ibn Qudamah said, ‘The companions of the Prophet were
unanimous on killing, although they differed in the description, that is, in the manner of killing. Some of the companions of the Prophet stated that [a homosexual] is to be burned with fire. It has also been said that he should be stoned, or thrown from a high place. Other things have also been said.”7

�� “In Islamic law, however, [jihad] has two uses: One usage is specific. It means to exert effort to wage war against
the unbelievers and tyrants.”8


�� “In its general usage, ‘jihad’ is divided into the following categories: …
--Wrestling with the infidels by calling them to the faith and battling against them.”9

�� “In these verses is a call for jihad, which is the pinnacle of Islam. In (jihad) is life for the body; thus it is one of the
most important causes of outward life. Only through force and victory over the enemies is there security and
repose. Within martyrdom in the path of God (exalted and glorified is He) is a type of noble life-force that is not
diminished by fear or poverty.”10

�� “As cited in Ibn Abbas: The apes are Jews, the people of the Sabbath; while the swine are Christians, the infidels of
the communion of Jesus.”11

�� “The decisive proof of the veracity of the Protocols [of the Elders of Zion] and the infernal Jewish plans they
contain is that the plans, plots, and conspiracies they list have been carried out. Whoever reads the protocols – and
they emerged in the 19th century – will realize today how much of what they described has been implemented.”12

�� “You can hardly find an example of sedition in which the Jews have not played a role.” 13

�� “The new approach to the crusades took several forms, including …[t]he establishment of schools. They founded
many schools in the Islamic world at various educational levels. These include: the American Universities of Beirut
and Cairo, the Jesuit University, Robert College in Istanbul, Gordon [Memorial] College in Khartoum, and others
too numerous to mention.”14

“[Baha’ism] is one of the destructive esoteric sects in the modern age… It has become clear that Babism [theprecursor to Baha’ism], Baha’ism, and Qadyanism [Ahmadiyyaism] represent wayward forces inside the Islamic
world that seek to strike from within and weaken it. They are colonial pillars in our Islamic countries and among the
true obstacles to a renaissance.”15

Lesson goals: The student notes some of the Jews’ condemnable qualities”16

Regarding Christians, Jews, Polytheists (including Muslims who are not followers of
Wahhabism) and other infidels, the books:

4. Command Muslims to “hate” Christians, Jews, polytheists, and other “unbelievers,”
including non-Wahhabi Muslims, though, incongruously, not to treat them “unjustly.”22


[Hmmm...can you still be friends with someone you hate? What do you think Abu? Cal]

Now teaches that a true believer “worships God alone, loves the believers, and hates the
infidels.”


The original texts are available in Arabic, and were translated by two independent translators. The US government relied on them to protest the way in which these books were being used.

The more important factor is that the Saudi Ministry of Education gives these hate filled textbooks out for free to Islamic schools around the world.

So there you have it. I hope your 'misunderstandings' regarding the true message of Islam have been cured.

Title: Re: A Question For Those Against Islam
Post by abu_rashid on Jan 18th, 2009 at 8:35pm
As I've stated so many times before in this forum, the Saudi government is not an Islamic government.. so asking me to answer for their claims is pretty irrelevant. Kind of like me asking you to answer for the Democratic People's Republic of North Korea. You are a proponent of Democracy aren't you? And their name says they're Democratic... so how about I post some of their textbooks, and you can defend them for us? Sound fair? It's about as relevant.

Title: Re: A Question For Those Against Islam
Post by Calanen on Jan 18th, 2009 at 8:49pm
The Truth about the Palestinian schoolbooks

by Itamar Marcus, director PMW

One of the most meaningful gauges of the integrity of a peace process and its likelihood for success is the degree to which the “peace partners” educate towards peace. It is for this reason that the entire Palestinian Authority (PA) education apparatus, both formal and informal, has been such a dismal disappointment. Instead of seizing the opportunity to educate the future generations to live with Israel in peace, the PA has done everything in its power to teach hatred to young minds.

Making matters worse, the Palestinian Authority has been spreading two clever lies about the schoolbooks that have succeeded in deflecting international pressure for change. This week, at a meeting in Jordan, Nebil Shaath answered Foreign Minister Silvan Shalom’s complaint about the schoolbooks saying that the PA has “spent five years” rewriting the books, implying that they are now proper. Then he added, that Israel used the same old Jordanian books for educating the local Arab population “for 30 years”, and therefore has no valid complaint to the PA. Many European governments, and many Israelis, have come to the PA’s defense, citing these and other arguments.

The truth about the PA schoolbooks is first, that both new and old are far from proper - both include anti-Semitism, de-legitimize Israel’s existence and incite to hatred and violence. In the new 6th grade book “Reading the Koran”, anti-Semitism is presented openly, as children read about Allah’s warning to the Jews that because of their evil Allah will kill them: “...Oh you who are Jews ...long for death if you are truthful... for the death from which you flee, that will surely overtake you ...”In other sections they learn of Jews being expelled from their homes by Allah, and in another Jews are said to be like donkeys: “Those [Jews] who were charged with the Torah, but did not observe it, are like a donkey carrying books...” [Reading the Koran, grade 6. p.20, 23, 78]. This religious based anti-Semitism is the most dangerous, as children are taught that hating Jews is God’s choice. And while Islam is not being critiqued, it is very grave that although Islam has positive traditions regarding Jews, the PA educators chose to incorporate only hateful religious traditions.

The new PA schoolbooks that Shaath was so positive about, also teach that Israel has no right to exist, de-legitimizing Israel as a foreign occupier, compared to colonial Britain: “Colonialism: Palestine faced the British occupation after the First World War in 1917, and the Israeli occupation in 1948 …”[National Education, sixth grade, p. 16].
Since all of Israel is said to be an “occupation”, all of Israel’s cities, regions and natural resources are presented as being part of “Palestine”. For example:
“Among the famous rocks of southern Palestine are the rocks of Beersheba and the Negev” and “Palestine’s Water Sources - ... The most important is the Sea of Galilee.” [Our Beautiful Language, grade 6, Part A, p. 64, National Education, sixth grade, p. 9-10]

The Negev, Beersheba and the Sea of Galilee are in Israel and do not border the disputed territories of Judea and Samaria. Yet PA children are taught these are “Palestine”. Continuing this ideology a book is citing dedicated to “...Palestinians, so that they would remember their stolen homeland and work for its salvation...”[Our Beautiful Language, sixth grade, Part A, p. 112] and it is referring, not to the disputed territories, but Israel pre 1967.

Educating not to recognize Israel’s existence is cemented through tens of maps in the schoolbooks in which “Palestine” encompass all of Israel. Israel does not exist on any map, within any borders. The PA defense of their schoolbook map, that since there are no final borders the map is not portraying modern “Palestine” but “Mandatory Palestine”, is an insult to our intelligence. Are we expected to believe that when Palestinian children see the map called “Palestine” in all their schoolbooks they imagine Britain a half a century ago? And when Beersheba is called Palestine, the children are picturing Biblical history?

Another new book teaches what must be done for “occupied Palestine” and the “stolen homeland”: “Islam encourages this [love of homeland] and established the defense of it as an obligatory commandment for every Muslim if even a centimeter of his land is stolen. "I, a Palestinian Muslim, love my country Palestine...” [Islamic Education, sixth grade, Part A, p. 68]

The complete and total message Palestinian children are taught is that Jews, according to Allah, are like donkeys; Israel is a colonial occupier who stole their land; the cities, lakes and deserts of Israel are “occupied Palestine”; and they, the children, have an obligation to liberate it “even if a centimeter is stolen”.

All the above messages are found in new schoolbooks written and published by the PA since 2000. The first claim that new PA books are “proper” is flagrantly untrue. However, the majority of the books still in use by the PA schools are books they republish under the symbol of their own Ministry of Education, that were written by Jordan. These books include the following hate promotion:
“One must beware of the Jews, for they are treacherous and disloyal.”
[Islamic Education for Ninth Grade p. 79, these and below from CMIP report]

http://www.pmw.org.il/schoolbooks.htm

Title: Re: A Question For Those Against Islam
Post by Calanen on Jan 18th, 2009 at 8:56pm
Pakistan:

Punjab state’s seventh-grade social studies textbook, published in January, begins with a full-page message from Musharraf urging students to focus on modern disciplines such as information technology and computers.

“It is a historical fact that the Muslims ruled the world for hundreds of years,” Musharraf writes. He acknowledges that in the past, Pakistan’s school curriculum “was not in concert with the requirements of modern times.” But he assures students that “textbooks have been developed, revised and updated accordingly.”

The changes, if any, are hard to spot. Disparaging references to Christians, Jews and Hindus from previous editions are carried over into the new text.

“Before Islam, people lived in untold misery all over the world,” the textbook says. “Some Jewish tribes also lived in Arabia. They lent money to workers and peasants on high rates of interest and usurped their earnings. They held the whole society in their tight grip because of the ever increasing compound interest.

[Of course there were no poor Jews, only scheming rich money lender Jews.]

http://articles.latimes.com/2005/aug/18/world/fg-schools18

Title: Re: A Question For Those Against Islam
Post by Calanen on Jan 18th, 2009 at 9:13pm
Egypt:


Quote:
…This noble [Qur’anic] Surah [Surat Muhammad]… deals with questions of
which the most important are as follows:
• Encouraging the faithful to perform jihad in God's cause, to behead
the infidels, take them prisoner, break their power, and make their
souls humble – all that in a style which contains the highest examples
of urging to fight. You see that in His words: “When you meet the
unbelievers in the battlefield strike off their heads and, when you
have laid them low, bind your captives firmly. Then grant them their
14 7
freedom or take a ransom from them, until war shall lay down its
burdens.”
Commentary on the Surahs of Muhammad, Al-Fath, Al-Hujurat and
Qaf, Grade 11, (2002) p. 9


Commentary on the Surahs of Muhammad, Al-Fath, Al-Hujurat and
Qaf, Grade 11, (2002) p. 9
When you meet them in order to fight [them], do not be seized by
compassion [towards them] but strike the[ir] necks powerfully.… Striking the
neck means fighting, because killing a person is often done by striking off his
head. Thus, it has become an expression for killing even if the fighter strikes
him elsewhere. This expression contains a harshness and emphasis that are
not found in the word “kill”, because it describes killing in the ugliest manner,
i.e., cutting the neck and making the organ – the head of the body – fly off
[the body].

Commentary on the Surahs of Muhammad, Al-Fath, Al-Hujurat and
Qaf, Grade, 11 (2002) pp. 19-20

The rules of jihad in this context
Jihad is a religious duty of every individual at a time of general call to arms, and a religious duty of a sufficient number [of Muslims] in other times. Jihad is a firm religious duty and anyone [i.e., any Muslim] who repudiates it should be considered an unbeliever. Its being a religious duty is proven by the Book [i.e., the Qur’an], the Prophetic Tradition [Sunnah] and the [Muslim] nation’s consensus. As for the Book, there are His words: “Fight those who do not believe in God, neither in the Last Day” and the rest of the verses regarding the command to fight the infidels. [As for] the Sunnah,
[there are] the Prophet’s words: “I have been ordered to fight the people until
they say that there is no god except God….”

Fighting the infidels is a duty of every man who is in full possession of his mental faculties, healthy, free [i.e., not a slave] and able [to perform jihad], because a woman and a slave are occupied by [the task of] serving the master
and the husband…

If the enemy attacks, it is the duty of all people to [participate in the] defense:

Women and slaves go out [even] without the permission of the[ir] masters and husbands, because it [i.e., jihad] becomes [in such a case] a personal religious duty, and the husband’s and master’s right is not superior to a  personal religious duty, as is [the case with] prayer and fasting.

Selections for the Explanation of [the Book of] “Selection”, Grade 11,
(2002) p. 329


http://www.teachkidspeace.com/reports/EgyptianTextbooks2003.pdf

Title: Re: A Question For Those Against Islam
Post by Calanen on Jan 18th, 2009 at 9:31pm
IRAN:


Quote:
Martyrdom

• The Persian Language and Literature textbook for the first year of Guidance contains the following passage: “The people of Iran learned the lesson of Martyrdom from Modarres” [Modarres was an oppositional clergyman who was killed by government forces in 1938 under the regime of Reza Shah]. (p. 23)

• The Social Teachings textbook for the fifth grade of primary school indicates that, “Martyrdom is the highest degree of sacrifice” (p.162). The Persian Language and Literature textbook for the fifth grade of primary school also praises martyrdom and urges children to welcome it. (p. 121)

• The Persian Language and Literature textbook for the third year of high school indicates that, “The Islamic revolutionary literature calls for: jihad, admiring martyrdom, love of leadership, lament during religious commemorations such as
Ashura [the date that Imam Hussein, the third Imam of the Shiite, was killed in Kerbela in present day Iraq], call to unity and belief in Mahdi [the reappearance of the Shiites 12th Imam or the Islamic-Shiite Messiah] (p. 133).



Quote:
Democratic Institutions and Processes
• The History textbook for the 3rd year of guidance (high school) says that, “Giving
the right to vote to women was a clear act of hostility to Islam.” (p. 72)



Quote:
Jihad / holy war against Islam’s “enemies”• The Social Teachings textbook for the fifth grade of primary school declares that, “Our hope is that the Islamic Revolution gets connected to the global revolution  of Mahdi [the 12th or the Hidden Imam of the Shiites] and that all deprived peoples eliminate the oppression of the Powers” (p. 134).

• The Social Teachings textbook for first year of guidance (secondary school) claims that, “...our Islamic revolution opened a new path for all oppressed people
of the world.” (p. 19)

• The Islamic Teaching textbook, for use in the Guidance cycle indicates that Khomeini said: “The entire country must be military” (p. 61). It also indicates that, “Confrontation with the infidel and global arrogant forces is a duty” (p. 64);


www.fas.org/irp/dni/osc/irantext.pdf

Title: Re: A Question For Those Against Islam
Post by Calanen on Jan 18th, 2009 at 9:39pm
JORDAN:

Researcher denounces inaccurate rights terminology in textbooks

Photo: IRIN  

AMMAN, 18 January 2006 (IRIN) - Jordanian authorities should revise national school textbooks in order to avoid erroneous human rights terminology from being taught, a researcher from the quasi-governmental National Centre for Human Rights (NCHR) said.

In an ongoing study commissioned by the NCHR, the Ministry of Education and UNESCO, researcher Suleiman Sweiss found several instances of inaccurate information related to human rights in textbooks.

One example was found in a secondary-school course book in which writers define the term “oriental democracy” as “the rule by a small group of educated people who know very well how to run the state.”

“I checked this term and was unable to find it in any scientific resource,” said Sweiss during a roundtable discussion on human rights education in Jordan, held earlier this month in Amman.

Another example of misleading definitions was found in an Islamic secondary-school textbook published last year. The book stated that “the husband has the right to beat his wife softly in a manner that would not leave any traces on her body.”

After having reviewed some 40 course books, Sweiss came to the conclusion that most textbook writers “are incompetent and not well-informed on human rights issues.”

Overall, however, the researcher considers recent steps by the education ministry to disseminate human rights information in school curriculum a positive sign.

“I’ve noticed an increase in references to democracy, citizenship, women’s and children’s rights and human rights declarations [in textbooks],” said Sweiss.

“The problem is with the implementation of these concepts,” he added.

NCHR’s report on the status of human rights education in Jordan is part of the United Nations World Programme on Human Rights Education.

Officials from the education ministry would not comment on the researcher’s findings.

http://www.irinnews.org/report.aspx?reportid=26059

Title: Re: A Question For Those Against Islam
Post by Calanen on Jan 18th, 2009 at 9:44pm
SYRIA:

B'nai Brith: Syrian schools drenched in anti-Semitism

By MELISSA RADLER - June 26, 2002
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/A/JPArticle/Full&cid=1023716554752

[NB - now link rot has set in]

NEW YORK - Virulent anti-Semitism, calls for Jihad and support for the elimination of Israel are entrenched in every level of Syria's school system, according to a study released by B'nai Brith International of 68 Syrian school textbooks spanning grades 1-12.

Conducted by the New York-based Center for Monitoring the Impact of Peace, the 30-page study titled, "Jihad, Jews and Anti-Semitism in Syrian School Texts," found that Syrian children are taught to hate Jews and Israel with such ferocity that genuine reconciliation between the two peoples appears unlikely in the near future.

The study also highlights Syria's contradictory role in the international arena. Listed as one of seven sponsors of international terrorism by the US State Department, Syria also holds the rotating presidency of the United Nations Security Council and co-chairs its Human Rights Commission, based in Geneva.

Among the many examples of anti-Semitism and anti-Israel sentiment provided in the study, which looked at government-funded texts only, is an excerpt from a 10th grade social studies text that describes Zionism as "a racist-imperialist-colonialist-aggressive-expansionist political movement." In an 11th grade reader, Zionism is termed the "new Nazism" and a "model of racist evil."

Eighth-graders are taught that, "It is known that the Jews of today do not have any connection to Palestine," and sixth-graders learn that "The Prophet [Mohammed] knew about the treacherous intention harbored in the Jews' souls."

By age 15, Syrian children are read in their Islamic studies textbooks that Jews deserve to be liquidated: "Co-existence with them or having them as neighbors, is an enormous danger that threatens Islamic and Arab existence with destruction and extinction Their criminal intention should be turned against them by way of their elimination."

Calls for "martyrdom" and terrorism are also tracked in the study. An Islamic studies text for grade-5 students describes praises Palestinian youth for "rushing towards death, trying to reach it ahead of one another," and 6th-graders learn: "There is neither excuse nor forgiveness for the one who refrains from Jihad for the cause of God, for the purification of Palestine of the Jews."

B'nai Brith executive vice president Dan Mariaschin said that the study highlights the dim prospects for peace between Israel and Syria. "Without education for peace, not incitement, good relations between Syria and Israel are unlikely," he said.

http://factsofisrael.com/blog/archives/000128.html


Title: Re: Taking Jews and Christians as friends
Post by Gaybriel on Jan 21st, 2009 at 5:49pm
Calanen- if you believe that muslims are forbidden from taking jews and christians as friends or anything else- then why do you suppose they are allowed to marry them?

also why did muhammed advice his followers to take protection under a christian state?

Title: Re: Taking Jews and Christians as friends
Post by freediver on Jan 21st, 2009 at 5:57pm

Quote:
Calanen- if you believe that muslims are forbidden from taking jews and christians as friends or anything else- then why do you suppose they are allowed to marry them?


To have sex with them. Only the men are allowed to marry them. It would be a lot harder to motivate sex deprived Muslim men to wage war if they weren't allowed to have sex with the captured slaves.

Title: Re: Taking Jews and Christians as friends
Post by Gaybriel on Jan 21st, 2009 at 5:59pm

freediver wrote on Jan 21st, 2009 at 5:57pm:

Quote:
Calanen- if you believe that muslims are forbidden from taking jews and christians as friends or anything else- then why do you suppose they are allowed to marry them?


To have sex with them. Only the men are allowed to marry them. It would be a lot harder to motivate sex deprived Muslim men to wage war if they weren't allowed to have sex with the captured slaves.


we're not talking about slaves. we're talking about wives. jewish and christian women who marry muslim men now are not slaves

and the question stands. if you marry someone obviously you take them as a friend- even more than that. so how does this sit with calanen's POV?

if it were just about sex then it would have been said 'thou shalt lie with them but not take them as your wives'- or something to that effect. but that was not said.

jewish and christian wives are also given the same rights in marriage as muslim women as far as I remember.

Title: Re: Taking Jews and Christians as friends
Post by Yadda on Jan 22nd, 2009 at 8:05am

Gaybriel wrote on Jan 21st, 2009 at 5:49pm:
Calanen- if you believe that muslims are forbidden from taking jews and christians as friends or anything else- then why do you suppose they are allowed to marry them?

also why did muhammed advice his followers to take protection under a christian state?





It is forbidden for a muslim woman to marry anyone but a muslim.

For any muslim woman to marry someone who is 'unbeliever' is an act of apostacy', as i tried to explain in another post on Oz Pol, here....





Quote:
"......And this [below] is what commonly happens to non-muslims who 'insult' ISLAM, in "predominantly muslim areas", in some countries.....


NEWS REPORT...

February 5, 2008
70-year-old woman, convert from Islam to Christianity, burned to death in Bangladesh
....DHAKA, BANGLADESH (BosNewsLife)-- Christian villagers in a Muslim-majority area of Bangladesh on Tuesday, February 5, mourned the death of a 70-year-old woman who died from burns she suffered when a mob reportedly set her home ablaze as a punishment for converting from Islam to Christianity.
http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/019813.php

N.B. These type of crimes are already happening in Western Europe, today.

We refer to them as 'honour' crimes.

But this is an inaccurate misnomer which is being perpetuated within our Western mainstream media.

A misnomer which hides the source of the motivation for these crimes.


These crimes are the murder of persons who 'insult' ISLAM.

The victims 'insult' ISLAM,
.....by adopting un-ISLAMIC values, and habits,
.....or by breaking with [the authority of] muslim family members.

These crimes, are more accurately described as the murder of muslim apostates.

This is a terror crime, which is clearly sanctified, and encouraged, within ISLAMIC 'holy' texts."


"Jihad mouse killed on air"
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1232167855/24#24








Quote:
"......also why did muhammed advice his followers to take protection under a christian state?"



May i venture an answer....

Because although Muhammad declared Christians as the enemies of Allah, and therefore the enemies of all devout muslims, Muhammad also realised that because of Christian religious doctrine of active pacifism [i.e. love your enemies] that Christians [if not their secular governments] where a 'soft touch', and so, it would be expedient for muslims to exploit such political naivety.



The Koran declares, all Christians [non-muslims] are accursed [enemies] of Allah.


Koran.....

".....Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!"
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/009.qmt.html#009.030



+++++++++


Muhammad is claimed by muslims, to be the last prophet of Allah [God].

And the Koran is supposed to be revealed, and *inerrant*, the very words of Allah himself.




But Allah is somewhat inconsistent....

Position #1
Allah firstly says, Christians ['amongst these'] are nearest in love to the believers [to muslims], and the Christians are not arrogant [like Jews and Pagans].

"Strongest among men in enmity to the believers wilt thou find the Jews and Pagans; and nearest among them in love to the believers wilt thou find those who say, "We are Christians": because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant."
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/005.qmt.html#005.082


Position #2
Despite Allah firstly describing Christians as '....being men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world', Allah THEN CHANGES HIS MIND, declaring that Christians bear Allah's curse [just like Jews and Pagans].

"......and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah......Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!"
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/009.qmt.html#009.030

"On his death-bed Allah's Apostle....said, "May Allah's Curse be on the Jews and the Christians....."
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/056.sbt.html#004.056.660








Title: Re: Taking Jews and Christians as friends
Post by Calanen on Jan 22nd, 2009 at 8:24am

Quote:
Calanen- if you believe that muslims are forbidden from taking jews and christians as friends or anything else- then why do you suppose they are allowed to marry them?

also why did muhammed advice his followers to take protection under a christian state?


It doesnt matter what I believe, at all. I could think of some great arguments about Islamic theology. But these arguments have all been answered and settled by Islamic jurisprudence. What I think, or interpret, is pointless. What matters is what the followers of the Religion of Peace have thought or interpreted. They tell us all the time, but we ignore what they say, or at least most of the west does.

I watch for what Islam says it means, and the way in which Islamic followers act in reliance on these teachings.

I have found the textbook examples to be powerful weapons in the fight against Islamic deception. It is one thing to say that my understanding of islam is the wrongheaded poorly translated Islamohpbic version, but then if it is coincidentally the same as is being taught to Islamic children in their textbooks, what does this tell us? Why is that? And not just in Saudi Arabia, but right around the world.

What does matter is what people do, and why they do it. Islamic terrorists say they do these things in Allah's name. I think we should take them at their word.

Title: Re: Taking Jews and Christians as friends
Post by abu_rashid on Jan 22nd, 2009 at 8:44am
Calanen,

Why did it take you sso many paragraphs?

Couldn't you just say "Ok, I concede I can't find anything that actually corroborates my view that Muslims can't take Christians and Jews as friends"?

Also I might remind you Calanen, that textbooks in Arabic countries are not what decide Islamic doctrine.

Also even if we just look at  the Syrian example. The first point is that they teach that Zionism is an evil Nazi like doctrine... This is the truth. Zionism is very much like Nazism. It is a form of Nationalist Socialism (Kibbutzes, racist settlements etc) and it must be opposed by all free thinking people. The Syrian government are quite right in teaching about it. Aren't kids in Australian schools taught about the evils German Nationalist Socialism? Why not teach about Jewish Nationalist Socialism also..

The second point is that Jews today don't have a connection to Palestine, again nothing but pure facts. Almost every single Jew who migrates to Palestine, to boot Arab families out of their homes and take over more of their land, forcing them into refugee camps, has absolutely NO traceable connection to the land of Palestine. No more than I have to the place my ancestors possibly lived 2000 years ago..

You're all hype mate.

Anyone examining your propaganda against Islam criticially would have to conclude you're nothing but a trouble maker, trying to cause tension where it doesn't exist, and where it shouldn't exist.

Title: Re: Taking Jews and Christians as friends
Post by abu_rashid on Jan 22nd, 2009 at 8:49am
freediver,


Quote:
To have sex with them. Only the men are allowed to marry them. It would be a lot harder to motivate sex deprived Muslim men to wage war if they weren't allowed to have sex with the captured slaves.


You really do yourself a disservice everytime you touch that keyboard of yours fd. She clearly stated marriage, yet you jump to slaves. Are you deliberately just arguing something other than what she asked?

Please answer the question she asked, not what you perceive it to be in your deluded little fantasy world.

Title: Re: Taking Jews and Christians as friends
Post by abu_rashid on Jan 22nd, 2009 at 8:58am
Yadda,


Quote:
It is forbidden for a muslim woman to marry anyone but a muslim.


Which is why Gaybriel stated:

"we're talking about wives. jewish and christian women who marry muslim men now are not slaves"

Just to help you out a little here Yadda, wives and women generally (no, in fact always) refer to females.


Quote:
because of Christian religious doctrine of active pacifism [i.e. love your enemies]


Aren't you a Christian Yadda? You don't seem to love your enemies. In fact you speak quite harshly about and act  quite hostile towards your enemies. I can't see you handing me your cloak nor giving me your other cheek....

Perhaps you need to go back and read more of your Bible, instead of wasting all your time on dhimmiwatch?


Quote:
But Allah is somewhat inconsistent....


It's not inconsistent at all. God curses you in his book for attributing a son to him, live with it, or stop attributing such polytheistic/pagan concepts to your Creator. And he also states you're the kindest to the believers, and some Christians indeed have been down through the ages, although today they're becoming more hostile to Muslims... Guess they keep forgetting to read all those pacifist verses in the Bible.

So no contradiction at all. Being kind to Muslims, but also being cursed for your polytheism are not mutually exclusive.

Title: Re: Taking Jews and Christians as friends
Post by Yadda on Jan 22nd, 2009 at 9:32am

abu_rashid wrote on Jan 22nd, 2009 at 8:58am:
Yadda,


Quote:
because of Christian religious doctrine of active pacifism [i.e. love your enemies]


Aren't you a Christian Yadda? You don't seem to love your enemies. In fact you speak quite harshly about and act  quite hostile towards your enemies. I can't see you handing me your cloak nor giving me your other cheek....

Perhaps you need to go back and read more of your Bible, instead of wasting all your time on dhimmiwatch?





abu,

I wish the best outcome for my 'enemies'.

But that in no way, means that i endorse the wickedness of ISLAM.

I do not endorse the lies, deceit, the violence, of ISLAM.

I sincerely wish all men will seek the TRUTH, and find peace.

It is not my Christian duty to be silent in the face of evil.




And i know that i will answer to God for all of my words, my actions, and, for what is in my heart.





++++++++++++



Matthew 5:13
Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.
14  Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.
15  Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.
16  Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.



Proverbs 8:13
The *fear of the LORD is to hate evil*: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate.


Romans 12:9
Let love be without dissimulation. *Abhor that which is evil*; cleave to that which is good.


Amos 5:10
They hate him that rebuketh in the gate, and they abhor him that speaketh uprightly.


Psalms 36:1
<<To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David the servant of the LORD.>> The transgression of the wicked saith within my heart, that there is no fear of God before his eyes.
2  For he flattereth himself in his own eyes, until his iniquity be found to be hateful.
3  The words of his mouth are iniquity and deceit: he hath left off to be wise, and to do good.
4  He deviseth mischief upon his bed; he setteth himself in a way that is not good; he abhorreth not evil.






Title: Re: Taking Jews and Christians as friends
Post by freediver on Jan 22nd, 2009 at 11:09am

Gaybriel wrote on Jan 21st, 2009 at 5:59pm:

freediver wrote on Jan 21st, 2009 at 5:57pm:

Quote:
Calanen- if you believe that muslims are forbidden from taking jews and christians as friends or anything else- then why do you suppose they are allowed to marry them?


To have sex with them. Only the men are allowed to marry them. It would be a lot harder to motivate sex deprived Muslim men to wage war if they weren't allowed to have sex with the captured slaves.


we're not talking about slaves. we're talking about wives. jewish and christian women who marry muslim men now are not slaves

and the question stands. if you marry someone obviously you take them as a friend- even more than that. so how does this sit with calanen's POV?

if it were just about sex then it would have been said 'thou shalt lie with them but not take them as your wives'- or something to that effect. but that was not said.

jewish and christian wives are also given the same rights in marriage as muslim women as far as I remember.


Gaybriel the Islamic approach to love and amrriage is completely different to how we understand it, so I don't think you can argue that allowing Muslims (only men) to marry non-Muslim women means they can also be friends with non-Muslims. Islam permits the marriage of an old man to a young bride who does not love him. Marriage is not about falling in love. The bride is supposed to 'grow to love' the husband as a result of being married. And if she strays she gets stoned to death. Also, the bride is expected to be very subservient to the husband. I don't see how the treatment would be that different from a sex slave.


Quote:
You really do yourself a disservice everytime you touch that keyboard of yours fd. She clearly stated marriage, yet you jump to slaves.


They can have sex with their wives as well. It's just that the motivation is far more clear with the sex slave issue. But it's the same principle. The marriage rights are not necessarily reflective of friendship.

Title: Re: Taking Jews and Christians as friends
Post by Gaybriel on Jan 22nd, 2009 at 11:13am
I think your understanding of marriage in Islam is less than perfect.

You've taken abu's comments to be literal and all encompassing. I don't think I can help you understand and I have a headache so I'm just going to leave it alone

Title: Re: Taking Jews and Christians as friends
Post by freediver on Jan 22nd, 2009 at 11:19am
Abu grew up in Australia. It's not like it's some cultural thing he picked up in the middle east and falsely ascribed to Islam.

Title: Re: Taking Jews and Christians as friends
Post by Gaybriel on Jan 22nd, 2009 at 11:50am
I didn't say that was the case

Title: Re: Taking Jews and Christians as friends
Post by abu_rashid on Jan 22nd, 2009 at 7:20pm
Gaybriel,

He's merely picked out pieces of my statements, then reassembled them together to find what he wants to find. Nowhere did I promote anything like the concept he's claimed marriage in Islam is like. As I'm sure you're aware, Islam places great value on the relationship between a husband and wife being a strong, loving connection between two souls. Freediver likes to insinuate and look for negatives where there are none, always casting everything in a negative, even if it means stretching the truth a little.

And when you tell him something which contradicts his distorted vision of Islam, he just claims it's lies anyway, and  then assumes what he wanted to believe, based on tacking a few disjointed statements together. Arguing with such a viewpoint is futile, save yourself from the headache.

Title: Re: Taking Jews and Christians as friends
Post by Yadda on Jan 23rd, 2009 at 8:36am

Gaybriel wrote on Jan 21st, 2009 at 5:49pm:
Calanen- if you believe that muslims are forbidden from taking jews and christians as friends or anything else- then why do you suppose they are allowed to marry them?




Gaybriel,

Devout muslims are expressly forbidden to marry unbelievers.

This is from the Koran.


If i post this information on the ISLAM board, abu will likely remove it [as being disrespectful to ISLAM].

If i post it [in a new thread] on the Extremism Exposed board, Gaybriel will likely remove it claiming another thread covering this issue/topic already exists.



abu,

Instead of simply deleting this post, why don't you address the issues i have raised here???

i.e. Particularly the issue of ISLAM's disrespect for women, relegating them to chattel, and sex objects.




ISLAM's highest authority, Allah, in the Koran, instructs muslims NOT to marry unbelieving women....

"Do not marry unbelieving women (idolaters), until they believe: A slave woman who believes is better than an unbelieving woman, even though she allures you. Nor marry (your girls) to unbelievers until they believe: A man slave who believes is better than an unbeliever, even though he allures you. Unbelievers do (but) beckon you to the Fire. But Allah beckons by His Grace to the Garden (of bliss) and forgiveness, and makes His Signs clear to mankind: That they may celebrate His praise."
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/002.qmt.html#002.221

N.B. A Christian woman *is* an unbelieving women.
An ex-Christian woman who is a muslim [covert], *is* a believing women.
i.e. a muslim man is therefore permitted to marry a *muslim* woman, and would not be marrying 'Christian' woman per se.




The Koran also states that the woman, the wife, has the status of a field [of earth, 'tilth'].

And her husband is to use her [plough her] as he wishes ['how ye will'].
i.e. sex on demand, is sanctified in the Koran, and this sanctity comes from Allah himself.

"Your wives are as a tilth unto you; so approach your tilth when or how ye will; but do some good act for your souls beforehand; and fear Allah. And know that ye are to meet Him (in the Hereafter), and give (these) good tidings to those who believe."
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/002.qmt.html#002.223



The Koran [Allah] instructs muslims beat disobedient wives, ever so lightly....

"Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all)."
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/004.qmt.html#004.034




PLOUGHING YOUR FIELD, in a Sharia jurisdiction.....

April 11, 2008
8-year-old girl seeks divorce in Yemen
.....SANA’A, April 9 - An eight-year-old girl decided last week to go the Sana’a West Court to prosecute her father, who forced her to marry a 30-year-old man......
.......Whenever I wanted to play in the yard he beat me and asked me to go to the bedroom with him. This lasted for two months," added Nasser. "He was too tough with me, and whenever I asked him for mercy, he beat me and slapped me and then used me.

http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/020644.php

Used her?

In what way?

As a tilth?

That is permitted, by ISLAM, and Allah.


N.B. The Yemen Times source for this story [the original source] has been removed.
http://yementimes.com/article.shtml?i=1145&p=front&a=2

But there are still many other redoubtable sources for this story.




Title: Re: Taking Jews and Christians as friends
Post by Calanen on Jan 23rd, 2009 at 10:56am

Gaybriel wrote on Jan 22nd, 2009 at 11:13am:
I think your understanding of marriage in Islam is less than perfect.

You've taken abu's comments to be literal and all encompassing. I don't think I can help you understand and I have a headache so I'm just going to leave it alone


Let's see what an expert has to say about a wife and a husband in Islam then:

http://au.youtube.com/v/46yJ2Ho__QU

Wife beating:

http://au.youtube.com/v/vJkmRBEOC3o

http://au.youtube.com/v/wseFgBocQrw

http://au.youtube.com/v/wh7qiO3Ygnk

Title: Re: Taking Jews and Christians as friends
Post by freediver on Jan 23rd, 2009 at 11:19am

abu_rashid wrote on Jan 22nd, 2009 at 7:20pm:
Gaybriel,

He's merely picked out pieces of my statements, then reassembled them together to find what he wants to find. Nowhere did I promote anything like the concept he's claimed marriage in Islam is like. As I'm sure you're aware, Islam places great value on the relationship between a husband and wife being a strong, loving connection between two souls. Freediver likes to insinuate and look for negatives where there are none, always casting everything in a negative, even if it means stretching the truth a little.

And when you tell him something which contradicts his distorted vision of Islam, he just claims it's lies anyway, and  then assumes what he wanted to believe, based on tacking a few disjointed statements together. Arguing with such a viewpoint is futile, save yourself from the headache.


So was I wrong Abu? Why not just point out where I was wrong? Just because you believe it is the word of God and therefor cannot be viewed in a negative light does not mean other people will not see it as negative.

Did you not say that Islam rejects the concept of a man and woman falling in love before they get married?

Title: Re: Taking Jews and Christians as friends
Post by Gaybriel on Jan 23rd, 2009 at 11:58am
Yadda- jews and christians are considered to be believers

Title: Re: Taking Jews and Christians as friends
Post by abu_rashid on Jan 24th, 2009 at 9:06pm

Quote:
Did you not say that Islam rejects the concept of a man and woman falling in love before they get married?


Can you quote me saying it?

I never said Islam rejects such a concept.

Title: Re: Taking Jews and Christians as friends
Post by abu_rashid on Jan 24th, 2009 at 9:17pm
Yadda,


Quote:
i.e. Particularly the issue of ISLAM's disrespect for women, relegating them to chattel, and sex objects.


;D ;D ;D
This is quite rich coming from a proponent of the civilisation that has built itself purely upon the sexual objectification of women. A society where anything from soft drinks to wallpaper involve women getting most of their gear off and slivering all over the product or sliding it all over their bodies.



Quote:
N.B. A Christian woman *is* an unbelieving women.
An ex-Christian woman who is a muslim [covert], *is* a believing women.
i.e. a muslim man is therefore permitted to marry a *muslim* woman, and would not be marrying 'Christian' woman per se.


I think the verse about this is quite clear:

"This day are (all) things good and pure made lawful unto you. The food of the People of the Book is lawful unto you and yours is lawful unto them. (Lawful unto you in marriage) are (not only) chaste women who are believers, but chaste women among the People of the Book, revealed before your time,- when ye give them their due dowers, and desire chastity, not lewdness, nor secret intrigues if any one rejects faith, fruitless is his work, and in the Hereafter he will be in the ranks of those who have lost (all spiritual good). "

As usual your ignorance is shining through.

Title: Re: Taking Jews and Christians as friends
Post by Yadda on Jan 25th, 2009 at 12:00am

Gaybriel wrote on Jan 23rd, 2009 at 11:58am:
Yadda- jews and christians are considered to be believers



Gaybriel,

Who say's so????

Can you give me a quote from the Koran, to back up such an assertion????





Gaybriel,

I suspect that you believe that [lie], because [for some reason] it pleases you to believe that [lie].

What i would like to know is WHY it pleases you to believe that [lie]?


#1

In the Koran Allah states that [devout] Christians are cursed - by him.

".....Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!"
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/009.qmt.html#009.030

The Hadith...

"On his death-bed Allah's Apostle....said, "May Allah's Curse be on the Jews and the Christians....."
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/056.sbt.html#004.056.660



#2

Q.
If as you assert, Jews and Christians are considered to be 'believers', then why are Jews and Christians continually persecuted and murdered by muslims, especially within Sharia jurisdictions?

i.e. Why do Jews and Christians so often find themselves to be unprotected people within Sharia jurisdictions?

Could it be that this Koran verse gives a clue?,

"....those who reject (Allah),- for them is destruction, and (Allah) will render their deeds astray (from their mark).
....those who reject Allah have no protector."
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/047.qmt.html#047.008
v. 8-11

Google,
muslims persecuted christians
http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=muslims+persecuted+christians&spell=1


N.B. ISLAM's highest authority, Allah, in the Koran, expressly forbids muslims to kill other, ....believers.

"Never should a believer kill a believer;.......If a man kills a believer intentionally, his recompense is Hell, to abide therein (For ever): And the wrath and the curse of Allah are upon him, and a dreadful penalty is prepared for him."
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/004.qmt.html#004.092
v. 92 & 93





#3

Gaybriel,

Q.
If Christians are considered to be 'believers', then why did this Sharia court grant custody of these young Christian girls to their muslim kidnappers?

Why didn't this court recognise the criminal act, perpetrated against these Christian girls, and their family?


Q.
Are these kidnappers, merely muslim impersonators???

If so, then why didn't the Sharia court, apprehend these kidnappers?



The actions of not real muslims???.....

CHRISTIAN GIRLS, 13- AND 10-YEAR-OLD GIRLS ABDUCTED, RAPED, AND FORCED INTO THE FOLD OF ISLAM


July 12, 2008
Pakistan: Christian girls kidnapped; captors file for custody, claiming girls converted to Islam
And the police weren't about to be of any help without outside pressure: The girls' father "was told to 'remain silent,' as the officers said the girls had embraced Islam in a written statement."
"Pakistan: Girls kidnapped, allegedly forced to convert,"
http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/021731.php



July 14, 2008
Pakistan: 13- and 10-year-old girls abducted, raped, and forced into the fold of Islam
More Christian girls being forced to convert to the religion of peace. As this report notes, the Muslim majority, including the police, are either actively or passively aiding the abductors, a common phenomenon in Muslim majority countries, such as Egypt, where Coptic girls are regularly abducted.
http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/021760.php



update....

July 20, 2008
Pakistan: Court grants custody of Christian girls to Muslim kidnappers
Because they converted to Islam, you see. More on this story. "Pakistan: Court Grants Custody of Girls to Kidnappers," from Compass Direct News, July 18:
   ISTANBUL, July 18 (Compass Direct News) A Pakistani couple has appealed a court decision to award custody of their two daughters, 10 and 13, to the children’s alleged kidnappers. The court based its custody decision on the girls’ conversion to Islam.
http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/021866.php



January 14, 2009
Pakistan: Christian girls drugged, coverted to Islam, sold as sex slaves
Muslim men are permitted to have sex with the "captives their right hands possess" (Qur'an 4:24). "Christian Girls Drugged and Sold As Sex Slaves in Pakistan," from AINA, January 13:
http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/024393.php



Title: Re: Taking Jews and Christians as friends
Post by Yadda on Jan 25th, 2009 at 12:38am

abu_rashid wrote on Jan 24th, 2009 at 9:17pm:
Yadda,

I think the verse about this is quite clear:

"This day are (all) things good and pure made lawful unto you......."





abu,

As i have stated previously, i understand all too well that within ISLAM, for a devout muslim,
.....all things are permissible, if they are permitted by Sharia [permitted by Allah's law].



Have sex with a 9-year-old girl,
http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/hadith/muslim/008.smt.html#008.3309


Keep women as sex slaves,
http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/quran/004.qmt.html#004.024


Capture a woman and rape her,
http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/hadith/bukhari/046.sbt.html#003.046.718


Beat children who don't pray,
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/abudawud/002.sat.html#002.0494








Title: Re: Taking Jews and Christians as friends
Post by freediver on Jan 26th, 2009 at 12:28pm

abu_rashid wrote on Jan 24th, 2009 at 9:06pm:

Quote:
Did you not say that Islam rejects the concept of a man and woman falling in love before they get married?


Can you quote me saying it?

I never said Islam rejects such a concept.


Here you go Abu:

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1225592196


Yadda wrote on Jan 25th, 2009 at 12:38am:
Beat children who don't pray,
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/abudawud/002.sat.html#002.0494


What's your take on this point Abu?

Title: Re: Taking Jews and Christians as friends
Post by abu_rashid on Jan 27th, 2009 at 8:58pm

Quote:
Here you go Abu:

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1225592196


That thread has nothing to do with what we discussed here. You've completely confused issues to try and stitch together an argument where there really isn't one.


Quote:
What's your take on this point Abu?


As with disclipining a wife who is disobedient, yes it is allowed.

Title: Re: Taking Jews and Christians as friends
Post by Aussie on Jan 27th, 2009 at 9:11pm
Not in Australia!  Illegal!

Islam has just lost me as a sympathiser!

Bugger that, Abu.  In this Country, we are taught to keep our male hands (of physical abuse) in our pockets.  In this Country, Men do not hit Women, although it seems there is an increasing number of incidents where Women are physically attacking Men.


Quote:
We don't  live in a Khilafah, we live in Australia, and Australia has certain values and systems.

Title: Re: Taking Jews and Christians as friends
Post by abu_rashid on Jan 28th, 2009 at 10:16am
Aussie,


Quote:
Bugger that, Abu.  In this Country, we are taught to keep our male hands (of physical abuse) in our pockets.  In this Country, Men do not hit Women


Are you living in a cave or something? Domestic violence by men against their wives certainly does exist in Australia.

Title: Re: Taking Jews and Christians as friends
Post by Yadda on Jan 28th, 2009 at 10:42am

abu_rashid wrote on Jan 28th, 2009 at 10:16am:
Aussie,


Quote:
Bugger that, Abu.  In this Country, we are taught to keep our male hands (of physical abuse) in our pockets.  In this Country, Men do not hit Women


Are you living in a cave or something? Domestic violence by men against their wives certainly does exist in Australia.



abu,

Yes, domestic violence is openly reported in the press in countries such as Australia.

I imagine that in places where the shame of reporting domestic violence is not tolerated, its occurance is probably much higher, being 'hidden' behind a 'veil' of silence?




Title: Re: Taking Jews and Christians as friends
Post by Gaybriel on Jan 28th, 2009 at 5:20pm

abu_rashid wrote on Jan 28th, 2009 at 10:16am:
Aussie,


Quote:
Bugger that, Abu.  In this Country, we are taught to keep our male hands (of physical abuse) in our pockets.  In this Country, Men do not hit Women


Are you living in a cave or something? Domestic violence by men against their wives certainly does exist in Australia.


yes but it's illegal. my understanding is that it is also forbidden in islam. is that your understanding abu?

Title: Re: Taking Jews and Christians as friends
Post by Gaybriel on Jan 28th, 2009 at 5:23pm
also what is the definition of beating when referring to the child/prayer issue?

Title: Re: Taking Jews and Christians as friends
Post by freediver on Jan 28th, 2009 at 5:44pm

Quote:
That thread has nothing to do with what we discussed here. You've completely confused issues to try and stitch together an argument where there really isn't one.


Wrong. Here you go:

Gaybriel:


Quote:
we're not talking about slaves. we're talking about wives.


FD:


Quote:
Gaybriel the Islamic approach to love and amrriage is completely different to how we understand it


Abu:


Quote:
Nowhere did I promote anything like the concept he's claimed marriage in Islam is like.


FD:


Quote:
Did you not say that Islam rejects the concept of a man and woman falling in love before they get married?


Abu:


Quote:
Can you quote me saying it?

I never said Islam rejects such a concept.


FD:


Quote:
Here you go Abu:

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1225592196


Yadda wrote on Jan 25th, 2009 at 12:38am:
Beat children who don't pray,
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/abudawud/002.sat.html#002.0494



Quote:
Islam has just lost me as a sympathiser!


Welcome to the club.


Quote:
yes but it's illegal. my understanding is that it is also forbidden in islam. is that your understanding abu?


He's just said it is OK to slap your wife in order to humiliate her into behaving herself, or to beat a child for not praying. Islam merely places what it sees as 'reasonable' limits on it.

Title: Re: Taking Jews and Christians as friends
Post by Gaybriel on Jan 28th, 2009 at 9:24pm
where did he say it's ok to slap? can you quote?

Title: Re: Taking Jews and Christians as friends
Post by abu_rashid on Jan 28th, 2009 at 9:32pm

He knows I just said disclipinary smack, but unfortunately statements have no fixed meaning for fd, they just keep changing, as he keeps applying more of his spin.

Title: Re: Taking Jews and Christians as friends
Post by abu_rashid on Jan 28th, 2009 at 9:37pm
freediver,

You've confused the issue of a man and his wife sharing a loving relationship (which obviously involves something much stronger than friendship, which proves Jews and Christians in fact CAN be friends of Muslims) with the issue of whether Islam encourages people to engage in pre-marital love relationships.

I personally, even before hearing what Islam was even about, knew quite well that the instant attraction people feel towards one another sometimes is not really love, it is infatuation. If you can't figure it out and understand this concept, then you've probably read a bit too much into sloppy romantic hollywood films.

Either way, it's completely detached from the issue we're discussing here, which is that Muslims may take Jews and Christians in relationships that are even stronger than friendship. Nice attempt to pass it over though...

Title: Re: Taking Jews and Christians as friends
Post by freediver on Jan 28th, 2009 at 10:07pm

Quote:
where did he say it's ok to slap? can you quote?


Sure, there are plenty. Here is one:


Quote:
He knows I just said disclipinary smack, but unfortunately statements have no fixed meaning for fd, they just keep changing, as he keeps applying more of his spin.


A smack is a smack Abu. I did not misrepresent you at all. Here is what I said:


Quote:
He's just said it is OK to slap your wife in order to humiliate her into behaving herself


That is quite obviously disciplinary. And you conceded that the object of this domestic violence is humiliation of your 'partner'. It is not spin at all. You need to realise that the only spin going on here is you pretending that slapping your wife is OK if she misbehaves. It is not possible for us to put a bad spin on that. It is bad enough to begin with.


Quote:
If you can't figure it out and understand this concept, then you've probably read a bit too much into sloppy romantic hollywood films.


What makes you think I don't understand that? Apples are red, but not all red things are apples. Likewise, not all infatuation is love, but that doesn't rule out falling in love without first being married. In fact true love is more likely if people marry people they love rather than some naive hope of falling in love once they are married and performing sexual acts for some old man.


Quote:
Either way, it's completely detached from the issue we're discussing here, which is that Muslims may take Jews and Christians in relationships that are even stronger than friendship.


Sure, if procreation is involved.


Quote:
Either way, it's completely detached from the issue we're discussing here, which is that Muslims may take Jews and Christians in relationships that are even stronger than friendship. Nice attempt to pass it over though...


;D Are you accusing me of deflection? You are the one who brought up marriage Abu, not me. I just showed that it means nothing to the original question. You can't bring up marriage as 'proof' that Muslims can take non-Muslims as friends and not expect others to point out the loveless concept of Islamic marriage.

Title: Re: Taking Jews and Christians as friends
Post by abu_rashid on Jan 29th, 2009 at 4:32am

Quote:
In fact true love is more likely if people marry people they love


Yeh that's why Western countries have the highest rate of divorce in the world, good one fd.

After a coupla years the infatuation wears off, and then they realise they can't make it work.


Quote:
Sure, if procreation is involved.


Sorry, you've lost me here.


Quote:
You are the one who brought up marriage Abu, not me


I brought it up, because of it's relevance, you merely latched onto it, as you thought it to be an oppotune time to link it to another misconception you have about Islam (ie. that Islam calls for loveless marriages).


Quote:
and not expect others to point out the loveless concept of Islamic marriage.


And herein lies the source of your problems in understanding the situation. Nowhere have I stated the Islamic concept of marriage is loveless, you've begun believing your own spin mate.

The Islamic concept of marriage is much more loving than the Western one in my opinion, as it is about a true spiritual bond, and a love that goes beyond the shallow infatuation that a lot of Western relationships seem to be based upon (hence the high divorce rates, and much lower marriage rates, which indicates most relationships don't even make it to marriage, let alone divorce).

Title: Re: Taking Jews and Christians as friends
Post by Lestat on Jan 29th, 2009 at 8:14am
Marrying someone whilst you are 'in love' with them is like making the biggest decision of your life whilst your drunk.

This explains why so many marriages in Australia end in divorce...1 in 3.

Title: Re: Taking Jews and Christians as friends
Post by freediver on Jan 29th, 2009 at 9:07am

Quote:
I brought it up, because of it's relevance, you merely latched onto it, as you thought it to be an oppotune time to link it to another misconception you have about Islam


No Abu, I responded because I thought the point I made was relevant, just like you. You should stop assuming that other people's only motive is to decieve. It is naive to think that the Islamic approach tends to lead more often to genuine love, given that it is so heavily propped up by concepts of servitude and denial of basic freedoms.

[mod: reference to deleted posts removed]

Title: Re: Taking Jews and Christians as friends
Post by Lestat on Jan 29th, 2009 at 9:46am

freediver wrote on Jan 29th, 2009 at 9:07am:
No Abu, I responded because I thought the point I made was relevant, just like you.


Alas, the point you raised was irrelevent, just like you. Irrelevant.


freediver wrote on Jan 29th, 2009 at 9:07am:
You should stop assuming that other people's only motive is to decieve.


In your case Freediver, its a fairly safe assumption to make.


freediver wrote on Jan 29th, 2009 at 9:07am:
It is naive to think that the Islamic approach tends to lead more often to genuine love, given that it is so heavily propped up by concepts of servitude and denial of basic freedoms.


This is just nonsense, and you have absolutely nothing to back it up, besides your bigotted pre-concieved ideas.

Fact is far more western marriages end in divorce then muslim marriages, even in Australia, where these apparent concepts of servitude and denial of basic freedoms are almost non-existence.

Once again, a quck look at the facts can quite easily discredit your lies.

Why don't you add this to your wiki...along with all the other lies. Then you can try spamming it on other sites, and people can laugh at you.

All that spamming, and you still have what....5-6 regular posters here. plenty have come and gone.

Do you ever wonder why? :D

Title: Re: Taking Jews and Christians as friends
Post by freediver on Jan 29th, 2009 at 9:52am

Quote:
Yet it is my post (which was in response to his) which you find odd. I wonder why...I suppose you don't like having yours (and the wests) hypocricy being highlighted.

Are you denying that there has been (and was) a major problem with Australian men going on sex tours in Thailand which invovled sex with minors?


I just don't see sex tourism as anything to do with Australian values. I think it is very odd that you would portray Australian culture that way.


Quote:
This is just nonsense, and you have absolutely nothing to back it up, besides your bigotted pre-concieved ideas.


I have plenty to back it up.


Quote:
Fact is far more western marriages end in divorce then muslim marriages, even in Australia, where these apparent concepts of servitude and denial of basic freedoms are almost non-existence.


It is the interopretation of the facts which we disagree on. Back when western women were in a similar role of servitude and dependence, divorce rates were similarly low. Low divorce rates can just as easily signal a culture that oppresses women and sees them as sex objects.

Title: Re: Taking Jews and Christians as friends
Post by abu_rashid on Jan 29th, 2009 at 10:31am

Quote:
It is naive to think that the Islamic approach tends to lead more often to genuine love, given that it is so heavily propped up by concepts of servitude and denial of basic freedoms.


It's not just Islamic countries. Many other societies which have more 'traditional' views of love and marriage also have lower divorce rates.

As for the spin you applied about servitude and lack of freedom, the only freedom which is missing in Islamic marriages which is relevant here is the lack of freedom for a woman to seek a no-fault divorce. This would indeed lower the need to resort to divorce, and that's quite obviously one of the wisdoms behind Islam adopting this law. However, in my opinion it's more to do with the fact that Muslims, and some other cultures which still hold onto 'tradition' values, believe in giving it a go and 'battling' through the rough patches, whereas Westernn culture is more about personal freedoms, do what you want, bail out as soon as the going get's tough, move on, you'll find someone else etc.

I prefer the former. And it sounds as if you prefer the latter... that's fine, no problem here, to you be your way and to me mine.

Title: Re: Taking Jews and Christians as friends
Post by Yadda on Jan 29th, 2009 at 10:55am

Soren wrote on Jan 29th, 2009 at 8:25am:

Lestat wrote on Jan 29th, 2009 at 8:14am:
Marrying someone whilst you are 'in love' with them is like making the biggest decision of your life whilst your drunk.

This explains why so many marriages in Australia end in divorce...1 in 3.



And in Mohammedan countries... [mod: reference to deleted posts]




soren,

Rather than suffering the deflections of ppl like Lestat, because you use the term 'Mohammedan countries', for the purpose of the debate, would it be worth instead, referring to those places as Sharia jurisdictions [i.e places where ISLAM has influence] ??

Title: Re: Taking Jews and Christians as friends
Post by freediver on Jan 29th, 2009 at 12:13pm

Quote:
It's not just Islamic countries. Many other societies which have more 'traditional' views of love and marriage also have lower divorce rates.


You are confusing divorce rates with a measure of love. The more 'traditional' societies use all sorts of cultural pressures to rpevent people getting a divorce, even if there is no love. The absence of divorce is not an indication of love in the marriage, but the practical and psychological constraints on getting a divorce.

On the other, rejecting the notion that people get married because they are in love obviously leads to less genuine love in marriage. It makes marriage an institution based on servitude.

Title: Re: Taking Jews and Christians as friends
Post by abu_rashid on Jan 29th, 2009 at 9:50pm
Yadda,

What soren refers to as "Mahommedan countries" and what you advised him to refer to as "Shariah jurisdictions" are pretty much all under exclusively European-based law systems. There are very few Muslim countries that did not wholesale adopt Europe codes of law, when they gained their 'independance'.

Title: Re: Taking Jews and Christians as friends
Post by abu_rashid on Jan 30th, 2009 at 4:18am
soren,

If you'd like to discuss temporary marriage, you may open a topic on it, but it must be asked respectfully. None of this slander about prostitutes etc. Perhaps Malik will answer your questions if he sees it. Since temporary marriage is not permitted in mainstream Islam, using it in this discussion is just pointless. I do not believe in temporary marriage, nor do the vast majority (over 90%) of Muslims.

Title: Re: Taking Jews and Christians as friends
Post by Yadda on Jan 30th, 2009 at 9:25am

abu_rashid wrote on Jan 29th, 2009 at 9:50pm:
Yadda,

What soren refers to as "Mahommedan countries" and what you advised him to refer to as "Shariah jurisdictions" are pretty much all under exclusively European-based law systems. There are very few Muslim countries that did not wholesale adopt Europe codes of law, when they gained their 'independance'.




abu,

What is currently happening in, for example, Jordan and Egypt today, don't exactly reflect legal systems, which a casual observer would understand to be modelled upon ".....exclusively European-based law systems."








abu,

YOUR CLAIMS, ARE QUOTED ABOVE.

THE FACTS, ARE STATED BELOW, BY EXAMPLE.....




SHARIA JURISDICTIONS ARE ALWAYS TOLERANT AND ACCOMMODATING OF NON-MUSLIMS,
.....except when they are not,

Monday June 09, 2008
JORDAN: COURT ANNULS CHRISTIAN CONVERT’S MARRIAGE
"By leaving Islam, ‘apostate’ loses right because he ‘has no creed.’
.....
....The North Amman Sharia Court in April dissolved the marriage of Mohammad Abbad, on trial for apostasy, or leaving Islam.
The 40-year-old convert fled Jordan with his wife and two young children in March after another Christian convert’s relatives attacked Abbad’s family in their home and his father demanded custody of Abbad’s children.
Marriage depends on the creed [religion], and the apostate has no creed, a May 22 court document stated, detailing reasons for the April 22 annulment. According to the document, Judge Faysal Khreisat had proven the veracity of [Abbad’s] apostasy."
http://www.compassdirect.org/en/display.php?page=news&lang=en&length=long&idelement=5420

This example above, sounds like a system of law influenced by ISLAM,
....and not a "European-based law system".




Egypt Rules Christian Convert Must Remain Legally Muslim
Feb. 03 2008
An Egyptian judge ruled this week in an unprecedented case that a Muslim who converted to Christianity cannot legally change his religious status....
.....Muhammad Hegazy, 25, lost his case on Tuesday when Judge Muhammad Husseini of a court in Cairo said according to sharia, or Islamic law, Islam is the final and most complete religion and therefore Muslims already practice full freedom of religion and cannot convert to an older belief (Christianity or Judaism),
.....The judge didn’t listen to our defense, and we didn’t even have a chance to talk before the court, said Gamel Eid, head of the Arab Network for Human Rights Information (ANHRI) to U.S. Copts Association.
http://www.christianpost.com/article/20080203/egypt-rules-christian-convert-must-remain-legally-muslim.htm

This example above, sounds like a system of law influenced by ISLAM,
....and not a "European-based law system".


".....The judge didn’t listen to our defense, and we didn’t even have a chance to talk before the court"

An apostate [i.e. a person now a non-muslim] accused can't even present his case, his defence, to a judge in Sharia court?

This doesn't sound very much like a "European-based law system" to me.

Koran,

"....those who reject (Allah),- for them is destruction, and (Allah) will render their deeds astray (from their mark).
....those who reject Allah have no protector."

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/047.qmt.html#047.008
v. 8-11




Quote:
.......An Egyptian judge ruled this week in an unprecedented case that a Muslim who converted to Christianity cannot legally change his religious status...."


But, but, but, that is an un-ISLAMIC ruling, surely?

"Let there be no compulsion in religion......."
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/002.qmt.html#002.256







Title: Re: Taking Jews and Christians as friends
Post by freediver on Jan 30th, 2009 at 1:12pm

Quote:
I do not believe in temporary marriage, nor do the vast majority (over 90%) of Muslims.


Yet you are more than happy to characterise 'the evil west' by the small minority who visit prostitutes.

Title: Re: Taking Jews and Christians as friends
Post by Lestat on Jan 31st, 2009 at 8:21am

freediver wrote on Jan 30th, 2009 at 1:12pm:

Quote:
I do not believe in temporary marriage, nor do the vast majority (over 90%) of Muslims.


Yet you are more than happy to characterise 'the evil west' by the small minority who visit prostitutes.


Isn't that what Soren just did? Completely changing the topic to do so.

And its a bit rich, considering that you are more then happy to characterize 'evil muslims' by actions of some. Then again...you've always been known to thrive on double standards and hypocricy.

Title: Re: Taking Jews and Christians as friends
Post by abu_rashid on Jan 31st, 2009 at 9:41am
Yadda,


Quote:
What is currently happening in, for example, Jordan and Egypt today, don't exactly reflect legal systems, which a casual observer would understand to be modelled upon ".....exclusively European-based law systems."


There's no doubting there's a few 'remnants' left over from the Islamic period, but those two countries are very much run by Western law, not Islamic law.


Quote:
Based on Islamic law and civil law (particularly French codes). Egypt attained independence from Ottoman Empire in matters of legal and judicial administration in 1874. Judicial reform began in 1875, leading to establishment of mukhtalatat (mixed) and ahli (national) courts. As Egypt increasingly came under foreign influence, legal system began resembling European systems to a greater extent.
Source


Quote:
Sources of law are legislation, constitutional law, Islamic law and custom.

Jordan was a part of the Ottoman Empire until WWI, then under indirect British rule, and attained full independence in 1947. The Ottoman legacy was influential even after the dissolution of the Empire. Jordanian legislation and the legal system are also influenced by European legal systems as well as by Egyptian and Syrian developments and reforms, particularly in personal status matters.
Source


Quote:
Egypt Rules Christian Convert Must Remain Legally Muslim


Not like it doesn't happen the other way 'round. In fact when a Coptic priests wife embraced Islam, the government forced her to return to him, and Coptics rioted violently in the streets for weeks, until she was forced to return to her husband.

...the country was Egypt and the woman was the wife of a Coptic priest, the issue led to street demonstrations, arrests, accusations of religious discrimination, the "seclusion" of the Coptic Pope and the eventual intervention of President Hosni Mubarak...

...The police informed Constantine that she had to first consult a priest before her conversion became official...

...her life was endangered by angered Copts....

...On December 7, 1,000 Copts gathered at the main Cairo cathedral and a riot ensued.  Stone throwers injured 21 policemen, who in turn arrested 34 people...

Source



Title: Re: Taking Jews and Christians as friends
Post by abu_rashid on Jan 31st, 2009 at 9:51am

Quote:
Yet you are more than happy to characterise 'the evil west' by the small minority who visit prostitutes.


Prostitution is pretty widespread in Australian society, denying this just means you're trying to cover it over. A LOT of people frequent them at some time in their lives, and besides that it's legal and accepted by the society at large.

Compare that to Shi'a temporary marriage, which probably isn't acceptable in any Muslim country except Iran. It's not just a matter of a minority of people doing it, it's a matter of a completely seperate sub-group of people doing it, completely detached and unaccepted by the rest. If for instance, only New Zealanders had prostitutes, and Canada, US, Australia, UK etc. did not... And then I claimed that Australians frequent prostitutes, because 10% of 'Westerners' do (ie. New Zealanders).

Title: Re: Taking Jews and Christians as friends
Post by freediver on Jan 31st, 2009 at 10:14am

Quote:
And its a bit rich, considering that you are more then happy to characterize 'evil muslims' by actions of some.


Please quote where I did that Lestat.


Quote:
Prostitution is pretty widespread in Australian society, denying this just means you're trying to cover it over.


How widespread? I've never visited one, and I'm not aware of my friends ever doing so either.


Quote:
If for instance, only New Zealanders had prostitutes, and Canada, US, Australia, UK etc. did not... And then I claimed that Australians frequent prostitutes, because 10% of 'Westerners' do (ie. New Zealanders).


Didn't you say it was a Shia concept? Are Shites only in Iran?

You are confusing the rejection of something with support for banning it. You are confusing the west's tolerance for people with different sexual standards with everyone having low standards.

Title: Re: Taking Jews and Christians as friends
Post by Lestat on Jan 31st, 2009 at 11:38am

freediver wrote on Jan 31st, 2009 at 10:14am:
Please quote where I did that Lestat.

.


lol..where do you want me to start. How bout your wiki for starters. :)



Title: Re: Taking Jews and Christians as friends
Post by freediver on Jan 31st, 2009 at 11:56am
The wiki is about Islamic law and how it clashes with western values. It is based on silamic ideology, not the actions of Muslims. That is why I was so careful to ask people like Abu what Islam is about.

http://www.ozpolitic.com/wiki/index.php?title=Islam_and_Australian_values

Title: Re: Taking Jews and Christians as friends
Post by Calanen on Jan 31st, 2009 at 3:15pm

freediver wrote on Jan 30th, 2009 at 1:12pm:

Quote:
I do not believe in temporary marriage, nor do the vast majority (over 90%) of Muslims.


Yet you are more than happy to characterise 'the evil west' by the small minority who visit prostitutes.


I doubt there would be much difference between male visitation of prostitutes in the west as vs the land of Islam. If anything,because you cant just go and meet a girl in a pub and sleep with her, ud think prostitution would be more prevalent in Islamic sexually repressed places.  But who knows for sure.

Title: Re: Taking Jews and Christians as friends
Post by Yadda on Feb 1st, 2009 at 11:29am

Calanen wrote on Jan 31st, 2009 at 3:15pm:

freediver wrote on Jan 30th, 2009 at 1:12pm:

Quote:
I do not believe in temporary marriage, nor do the vast majority (over 90%) of Muslims.


Yet you are more than happy to characterise 'the evil west' by the small minority who visit prostitutes.


I doubt there would be much difference between male visitation of prostitutes in the west as vs the land of Islam. If anything,because you cant just go and meet a girl in a pub and sleep with her, ud think prostitution would be more prevalent in Islamic sexually repressed places.  But who knows for sure.





Calanen,

Yes.

Who know?

Google knows!     ;D     ;D     ;D




ARE THERE NOT ENOUGH VIRGINS, IN ALLAH'S PARADISE????

Let there be light
Visitng 'Sex sites,' hardcore puritan nations come out unclothed
May 24, 2006
iranian.com
Ideological legislation restricts the freedom to access sites considered as bad for the faithul in countries like Iran, Saudi and Pakistan. This legislation of 'human attitudes‚ more often than not leads to exactly the opposite effect. Even Adam, everyone‚s biological father, slipped when he was enticed to eat the forbidden fruit by our common mother, Eve. It is coded in 'human genetics‚ that this intelligent being is designed to do more of what is prohibited. Google report produced ample evidence of that closet mentality. Google found that of the top 10 countries - searching for sex-related sites - six were Muslim, with Pakistan on the top.
http://www.iranian.com/IqbalLatif/2006/May/Sex/index.html


Google,
"Google report" porn sites muslim countries
http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&q=%22Google+report%22+porn+sites+muslim+countries&btnG=Search&meta=






Calanen,

What i want to know is, will abu tell us, that all of these muslims [the ones who are purportedly visiting web based porn sites], are not real muslims?



What i want to know.....

Do muslims openly, recommend their brothers 'respect' women, and obey Allah?

But when 'in the closet', when they think that no body is watching, what sort of behaviour do muslims endorse????

"If it feels good. Do it!"   ???




Title: Re: Taking Jews and Christians as friends
Post by freediver on Feb 1st, 2009 at 11:33am
Maybe they were just looking for information about heaven....

Title: Re: Taking Jews and Christians as friends
Post by Lestat on Feb 1st, 2009 at 6:18pm
Here's something hilarious. Read this thread, and then read this post by Freediver.


freediver wrote on Feb 1st, 2009 at 9:00am:
We are respectful enough to let Muslims decide what Islam is. But you cannot honestly expect us to accept that your version of some other religion is 'more correct' than what the actual followers of that religion believe.



:D:D:D:D :D

Title: Re: Taking Jews and Christians as friends
Post by soren on Feb 2nd, 2009 at 11:15pm

abu_rashid wrote on Jan 30th, 2009 at 4:18am:
soren,

If you'd like to discuss temporary marriage, you may open a topic on it, but it must be asked respectfully. None of this slander about prostitutes etc. Perhaps Malik will answer your questions if he sees it. Since temporary marriage is not permitted in mainstream Islam, using it in this discussion is just pointless. I do not believe in temporary marriage, nor do the vast majority (over 90%) of Muslims.



It is NOT slander.


Iran's Sex Slaves Suffer Hideously Under Mullahs      
By Donna M. Hughes, Carlson Professor in Women's Studies, University of Rhode Island

Joining a global trend, the fundamentalists have added another way to dehumanize women and girls: buying and selling them for prostitution. Exact numbers of victims are impossible to obtain, but according to an official source in Tehran, there has been a 635 percent increase in the number of teen-age girls in prostitution. The magnitude of this statistic conveys how rapidly this form of abuse has grown. In Tehran, there are an estimated 84,000 women and girls in prostitution, many of them are on the streets, others are in the 250 brothels that reportedly operate in the city. The trade is also international: Thousands of Iranian women and girls have been sold into sexual slavery abroad.

The head of Iran's Interpol bureau believes that the sex-slave trade is one of the most profitable activities in Iran today. This criminal trade is not conducted outside the knowledge and participation of the ruling fundamentalists. Government officials themselves are involved in buying, selling and sexually abusing women and girls.

Many of the girls come from impoverished rural areas. Drug addiction is epidemic throughout Iran, and some addicted parents sell their children to support their habits. High unemployment -- 28 percent for youth 15 to 29 years of age, and 43 percent for women 15 to 20 years of age -- is a serious factor in driving restless youth to accept risky offers for work. Slave traders take advantage of any opportunity in which women and children are vulnerable. For example, following the recent earthquake in Bam, orphaned girls have been kidnapped and taken to a known slave market in Tehran where Iranian and foreign traders meet.

Popular destinations for victims of the slave trade are the Arab countries in the Persian Gulf. According to the head of the Tehran province judiciary, traffickers target girls between 13 and 17, although there are reports of some girls as young as 8 and 10, to send to Arab countries. One ring was discovered after an 18-year-old girl escaped from a basement where a group of girls were held before being sent to Qatar, Kuwait and the United Arab Emirates. The number of Iranian women and girls who are deported from Persian Gulf countries indicates the magnitude of the trade. Upon their return to Iran, the Islamic fundamentalists blame the victims, and often physically punish and imprison them. The women are examined to determine if they have engaged in "immoral activity." Based on the findings, officials can ban them from leaving the country again.

Police have uncovered a number of prostitution and slavery rings operating from Tehran that have sold girls to France, Britain and Turkey as well. One network based in Turkey bought smuggled Iranian women and girls, gave them fake passports, and transported them to European and Persian Gulf countries. In one case, a 16-year-old girl was smuggled to Turkey, and then sold to a 58-year-old European national for $20,000.  

The rest is here
http://www.iranfocus.com/en/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=6


Perhaps i should post this in the Women in Islam thread.

Title: Re: Taking Jews and Christians as friends
Post by abu_rashid on Feb 3rd, 2009 at 6:16am

Quote:
It is NOT slander.


It quite clearly IS slander, because that article has nothing to do with temporary marriage. There's no doubting prostitution does exist in Iran, but that's a different issue. Now if you're sincere in wanting to know about temporary marriage, as I said, open a thread, and flag it attention Malik or something. Or send him a pm to ask him to address it.

Islam does not permit prostitution, and you well know it, in fact this is one of the issues  you have with it, is that it doesn't permit the wholesale prostitution of women and selling of their bodies to promote a good 'healthy' capitalist economy.

Title: Re: Taking Jews and Christians as friends
Post by Calanen on Feb 3rd, 2009 at 6:24am

Quote:
Islam does not permit prostitution, and you well know it, in fact this is one of the issues  you have with it, is that it doesn't permit the wholesale prostitution of women and selling of their bodies to promote a good 'healthy' capitalist economy.


Neither does US law with the exception of Nevada I believe. Not that I care either way, if people want to pay others to have sex, why should I give a rats ass.

Lots of blind eye turning though in the Islamic world however. Whether prostitution is there because of the capitalist economy or some other reason, it is still there.

Title: Re: Taking Jews and Christians as friends
Post by freediver on Feb 3rd, 2009 at 8:53am
Prostitution is always there, regardless of the law or dominant moral creed. Although Abu had created the impression that it doesn;t exist in good Muslim countries.

Title: Re: Taking Jews and Christians as friends
Post by freediver on Feb 6th, 2009 at 6:08pm

Quote:
Better still in Islam, you get infidel women for free from the dar al Harb. They are part of the 'War Booty,'.


Something tells me you would still have to pay for them. Unless you got rewarded for valour or something. They would belong 'to the people' first, which means the government.

Title: Re: Taking Jews and Christians as friends
Post by Calanen on Feb 6th, 2009 at 6:23pm

freediver wrote on Feb 6th, 2009 at 6:08pm:

Quote:
Better still in Islam, you get infidel women for free from the dar al Harb. They are part of the 'War Booty,'.


Something tells me you would still have to pay for them. Unless you got rewarded for valour or something. They would belong 'to the people' first, which means the government.


Wrong about that their chief. There is a pecking order in the distribution of booty according to rank. It's all pretty complicated, ahem, let me look up in one of my little manuals and see if I can find it for you.

Title: Re: Taking Jews and Christians as friends
Post by freediver on Feb 6th, 2009 at 6:26pm
I wonder if they let the infidels fighting with them rape the captured women also. Otherwise it would be discrimination, wouldn't it?

Title: Re: Taking Jews and Christians as friends
Post by Calanen on Feb 6th, 2009 at 6:55pm
Dhimmis get nothing there chief, just so you understand...

As to what Muslims get, let's see:

Four-fifths of the share of the war booty goes to each male jihadist. The other fifth share goes to the state.

However, some schools say that horsemen only get 3 parts of the share and one to foot soldiers. The imam has the ability to promise additional shares to certain soldiers before the battle is won, this additional amount is called nafal.

Remember that the booty is all moveable and immoveable 'property' including, human beings. The term spoil 'ghanima' is applied specifically to property acquired by force from non-muslims.  The spoil only goes to those who witnessed the battle.

The different schools of Islam argue about how much each bit goes to each person, whether women and children get some or not. But nobody says, no you dont take all the stuff.

So its reasonably elementary for muslim men to consider infidel women as the war booty, as we do live in the dar al harb, and they are just making jihad against them.

Title: Re: Taking Jews and Christians as friends
Post by Yadda on Feb 8th, 2009 at 11:46am

freediver wrote on Feb 6th, 2009 at 6:08pm:

Quote:
Better still in Islam, you get infidel women for free from the dar al Harb. They are part of the 'War Booty,'.


Something tells me you would still have to pay for them. Unless you got rewarded for valour or something. They would belong 'to the people' first, which means the government.





Allah himself has declared that war booty, the spoils of war, have been made lawful to Muhammad [and muslims].

1/5 of the spoils of war goes to the state,
the remainder of the 'war booty' is divided among, and belongs to, the ISLAMIC 'warriors' who fought for it.
.....'war booty', is, it seems to me, sorta like a prequel, to the 72 virgins awaiting the warriors in Allah's paradise.


"And know that out of all the booty that ye may acquire (in war), a fifth share is assigned to Allah,- and to the Messenger......"
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/008.qmt.html#008.041




more here,

"ISLAM - PEACE, THROUGH BONDAGE"
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1225935146/0#0





Title: Re: Taking Jews and Christians as friends
Post by abu_rashid on Feb 8th, 2009 at 12:01pm

Nothing compares to the spoils taken in Iraq. The oil (not just the oil itself, but the hegemony over world prices, ever noticed how they skyrocketed right after the war??), the artefacts etc. Or how about the vast amounts of 'intellectual' booty the US took from Germany after WWII??

As has been stated before, in the old days, Arabs used to carry large treasures into war, the winning army would sieze it. Other cultures practised this also. Pillaging of civilian property is NOT permitted, as neither is capturing civilian populations, as is continually falsely claimed by Calanen.

If the wild baseless claims here were true "all movable and immovable property", then one would think all the lands that were opened by Islam would be completely empty today, since everything would've been taken back to Madinah, no?


Title: Re: Taking Jews and Christians as friends
Post by freediver on Feb 8th, 2009 at 1:08pm

Quote:
If the wild baseless claims here were true "all movable and immovable property", then one would think all the lands that were opened by Islam would be completely empty today, since everything would've been taken back to Madinah, no?


No Abu, hence the 'immovable' bit. You cannot take topsoil. Castles are a bit hard to move also. To posses them, you have to settle. that's how Islam spread. They did not take the Iberian peninsula home with them, did they?

You gave me the impression on another thread they they could take everything.

Title: Re: Taking Jews and Christians as friends
Post by Calanen on Feb 8th, 2009 at 6:38pm

freediver wrote on Feb 8th, 2009 at 1:08pm:
[quote]

You gave me the impression on another thread they they could take everything.


They can. Its not however meant to be a smash and grab tho. Meant to capture places, not destroy them. But it does all becomes the property of Islam. BUT someone has to do the work while Islamic armies are maraudering around, so the dhimmis are kept about to do that.

Title: Re: Taking Jews and Christians as friends
Post by soren on Feb 8th, 2009 at 8:13pm

Calanen wrote on Feb 8th, 2009 at 6:38pm:

freediver wrote on Feb 8th, 2009 at 1:08pm:
[quote]

You gave me the impression on another thread they they could take everything.


They can. Its not however meant to be a smash and grab tho. Meant to capture places, not destroy them. But it does all becomes the property of Islam. BUT someone has to do the work while Islamic armies are maraudering around, so the dhimmis are kept about to do that.



Hence the chants of 'we was robbed' over Spain... I'm sorry... Andalus, even 500 years later.

And dare I say it , hence thee bloodyminded 'anything but peace' stance on the wassisname, Jewdea. No, Israel. Once Ottoman, always Islamic. On second thouights, I'd better daren't.





Title: Re: Taking Jews and Christians as friends
Post by Calanen on Feb 13th, 2009 at 4:18pm

Gaybriel wrote on Jan 23rd, 2009 at 11:58am:
Yadda- jews and christians are considered to be believers


Little bit old, but they so are not. Only believers - muslims - are believers. Jews and Christians are the People of the Book or the Scriptuaries.

Title: Re: Taking Jews and Christians as friends
Post by abu_rashid on Feb 14th, 2009 at 9:41am
As in most of these kinds of debates, the truth is somewhere between these two extremes

They are considered people who had a divinely revealed book. Their food is considered halal (if prepared according to their own books requirements) and the chaste women from amongst them are considered suitable marriage partners. And under Shari'ah law they are given special recognition, with courts that implement their religious rules. This validates their religion to an extent and indicates they are indeed considered to be believers in some context.

But they are not considered believers on the same level as Muslims. They are considered wayward believers who've just begun following tradition, instead of clear proofs.

Title: Re: Taking Jews and Christians as friends
Post by Yadda on Feb 15th, 2009 at 3:59am

abu_rashid wrote on Feb 14th, 2009 at 9:41am:
......[Christians] are not considered believers on the same level as Muslims. They are considered wayward believers who've just begun following tradition, instead of clear proofs.



abu,

Can you define, what are these, "clear proofs" ?


Are these "clear proofs", the words of the Koran?

And if yes, how are the words of the Koran 'confirmed'?







EXAMPLE.....

"Let there be no compulsion in religion......."
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/002.qmt.html#002.256

And these words from the Koran, are 'confirmed' by the daily actions of muslims are they ?



And here is a 'clear proof'....
/sarc off


February 5, 2008
70-year-old woman, convert from Islam to Christianity, burned to death in Bangladesh
Islamic Tolerance Alert. As Muhammad said, "If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him." No one came to help put out the fire.
....DHAKA, BANGLADESH (BosNewsLife)-- Christian villagers in a Muslim-majority area of Bangladesh on Tuesday, February 5, mourned the death of a 70-year-old woman who died from burns she suffered when a mob reportedly set her home ablaze as a punishment for converting from Islam to Christianity.

http://www.bosnewslife.com/news/3416-news-alert-elderly-burned-convert-dies-in






Title: Re: Taking Jews and Christians as friends
Post by mozzaok on Feb 15th, 2009 at 3:31pm
Come on Yadda, he has as much right to believe in his fairy tale, as you do for yours, and seeking to challenge individual beliefs, will never change anyones mind.

As an Atheist, I am continually amazed at the depth of passion that believers feel for their individual deities, but when I see people trying to convince others to adopt their beliefs, I do despair a little for the whole concept of religious freedom, which is most thoroughly transgressed by the truest believers.

So if you try and contain your arguments to matters of social cohesion, rather than whose god is the best, then we can have a meaningful dialogue.

Title: Re: Taking Jews and Christians as friends
Post by Yadda on Feb 16th, 2009 at 1:39pm

mozzaok wrote on Feb 15th, 2009 at 3:31pm:
Come on Yadda, he has as much right to believe in his fairy tale, as you do for yours, and seeking to challenge individual beliefs, will never change anyones mind.

As an Atheist, I am continually amazed at the depth of passion that believers feel for their individual deities,



Listen moz,

My God is bigger than his God!         ;D     ;D     ;D





Quote:
but when I see people trying to convince others to adopt their beliefs, I do despair a little for the whole concept of religious freedom, which is most thoroughly transgressed by the truest believers.

So if you try and contain your arguments to matters of social cohesion, rather than whose god is the best, then we can have a meaningful dialogue.



'....matters of social cohesion' are of little consequence [in my opinion].

What is far more important is our willingness [or lack thereof], to confront apparent TRUTH.


e.g.
We are told that muslims all seek 'peace', for mankind.

But ppl like abu, fail to translate the muslim / ISLAMIC definition of 'peace'.

Their definition of 'peace' being, .....our total submission to Allah / ISLAM.

And until that circumstance is achieved, the Jihad [war fighting] against 'unbelief' must continue.






++++++++++






The Koran....

"Fighting [against unbelievers] is prescribed for you, and [if] ye dislike it.....Allah knoweth, and ye know not."
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/002.qmt.html#002.216



The Hadith.....

Allah's Apostle was asked, "What is the best deed?" He replied, "To believe in Allah and His Apostle (Muhammad). The questioner then asked, "What is the next (in goodness)? He replied, "To participate in Jihad (religious fighting) in Allah's Cause."
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/002.sbt.html#001.002.025






Title: Re: Taking Jews and Christians as friends
Post by abu_rashid on Feb 16th, 2009 at 4:41pm
Yadda,


Quote:
Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not.


Actually the word translated as "dislike" is stronger, it is "hate it". This indicates that the Muslims were not the war-mongering bunch you'd like to portray them as, and God knew they would hate to fight. This verse was revealed because they were being threatened by an army, in a sacred month, and so it was revealed that they must fight to defend themselves.

Note: Your 'additions' were removed. If you were honest, and the Qur'an was as self-incriminating as you make out, then there'd be no need to add your own annotations into the text, hinting to the unwary that they are actually part of the text, or that they provide some kind of authentic context to the verse quoted.


Quote:
Allah's Apostle was asked, "What is the best deed?" He replied, "To believe in Allah and His Apostle (Muhammad). The questioner then asked, "What is the next (in goodness)? He replied, "To participate in Jihad (religious fighting) in Allah's Cause."


Is it really any different from the Western concept of "God & Country"?

The real American meaning of GOD AND COUNTRY should be: “A nation of patriotic citizens who dedicate themselves to protecting and defending ‘America the Beautiful’ and our basic human freedoms from tyranny and oppression, as well as showing our love and respect for God by protecting and defending all Creation.” (http://www.godandcountry.org)

Just change the word America to Islamic and you've got much the same as the hadith above. It really isn't the sensationalist hype you'd like to make it out to be.

Title: Re: Taking Jews and Christians as friends
Post by freediver on Feb 16th, 2009 at 4:54pm

Quote:
Just change the word America to Islamic and you've got much the same as the hadith above.


You must have missed the 'basic human freedoms' bit. Islam is the tyranny and opression bit. They are speaking out against that Abu, not for it.

Title: Re: Taking Jews and Christians as friends
Post by abu_rashid on Feb 16th, 2009 at 6:16pm
Those things are relative.

I consider Islam to establish freedom, justice and prosperity.

You consider your system to...

Likewise Communists considered their system to..

As do Anarchists, Mormons etc.

Title: Re: Taking Jews and Christians as friends
Post by freediver on Feb 16th, 2009 at 6:22pm

Quote:
I consider Islam to establish freedom, justice and prosperity.


Funny that. You don't seem to have mentioned it much before. It seems to be purely a response to the criticisms I have recently made about Islam. Maybe prosperity you can get away with, as that could be considered an aim of building an empire. However that isn't really the goal is it? You definitely cannot get away with justice or freedom, as Islam is fudnamentally opposed to them. You can't just say 'but Islam wants those things too' and expect people to take you seriously.

If you only wanted Islam 1400 years ago, but didn't want it today, maybe you could make the claim make sense, as Islam wants injustice and the denial of freedom, but perhaps not as much as other regimes did back then.

Also, you seem to have left some words out of your sentence. Maybe it would make more sense if you included them.

If you look closely, you will see that religions, and even communism, do not cite freedom as their main goal.

Title: Re: Taking Jews and Christians as friends
Post by abu_rashid on Feb 16th, 2009 at 9:32pm

Justice is one of the major concepts in Islam, as is fighting against tyranny. عادل (adil, 'the just') is a very famous muslim name, and is also one of the 99 names of God. All you can really claim is Muslims have a different vision of justice to you, and I'd agree. I think lots of things in Secular societies are not just at all. You might for instance believe George Bush's operation "Infinite justice", ie. the killing tens of thousands of innocent civilians was justice, I don't.

It's certainly not a recent claim that Islam is based on justice, that's only been invented to respond to you.

From the hadith:

Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) said: “There are seven categories of people whom God will shelter under His shade on the Day when there will be no shade except His.  [One is] the just leader.”(Saheeh Muslim)

And God said: “O My worshippers, I have forbidden injustice for Myself and forbade it also for you.  So avoid being unjust to one another.” (Saheeh Muslim)

And in the Qur'an:

“God commands justice and fair dealing...” (Quran 16:90)

“O you who believe, be upright for God, and (be) bearers of witness with justice!...” (Quran 5:8)

“We sent Our Messengers with clear signs and sent down with them the Book and the Measure in order to establish justice among the people…” (Quran 57:25)

“O you who believe!  Stand out firmly for justice, as witnesses to Allah, even if it be against yourselves, your parents, and your relatives, or whether it is against the rich or the poor...”
(Quran 4:135)

“Let not the hatred of a people swerve you away from justice.  Be just, for this is closest to righteousness…” (Quran 5:8)

“God does not forbid you from doing good and being just to those who have neither fought you over your faith nor evicted you from your homes...” (Quran 60:8)

“…If you judge, judge between them with justice…”
(Quran 5:42)

“…Say: I believe in the Scripture, which God has sent down, and I am commanded to judge justly between you...” (Quran 42:15)

“And the Word of your Lord has been fulfilled in truth and in justice. None can change His Words.” (Quran 6:115)

“God commands you to render trusts to whom they are due, and when you judge between people, judge with justice…”
(Quran 4:58)

“…Be just, for it is closest to God-consciousness…” (Quran 5:8)

“…When you speak, speak with justice, even if it is against someone close to you…” (Quran 6:152)

And here is an excellent statement which sums up the Western ignorance of Islam, and hypocrisy of their dealings with the Muslims:


Quote:
Justice does require retribution and Islam does call for, "an eye for an eye." But it does not mean an innocent eye for an innocent eye; it means the eye of the perpetrator for the eye of the victim. It is amazing how those who call the latter as barbaric, actually rally for the former when a real crisis develops.


How true that is.

Title: Re: Taking Jews and Christians as friends
Post by Yadda on Feb 17th, 2009 at 10:52am

abu_rashid wrote on Feb 16th, 2009 at 4:41pm:
Yadda,


Quote:
Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not.


Actually the word translated as "dislike" is stronger, it is "hate it". This indicates that the Muslims were not the war-mongering bunch you'd like to portray them as, and God knew they would hate to fight. This verse was revealed because they were being threatened by an army, in a sacred month, and so it was revealed that they must fight to defend themselves.

Note: Your 'additions' were removed. If you were honest, and the Qur'an was as self-incriminating as you make out, then there'd be no need to add your own annotations into the text, hinting to the unwary that they are actually part of the text, or that they provide some kind of authentic context to the verse quoted.




abu,

Thank you for that 'clarification'.

But i know what those verses from the Koran and Hadith mean.






++++++++



At an ISLAMIC website, a teacher of ISLAM answers a question.....

Question:
Was Islam spread by the sword?
Answer:

Praise be to Allaah.
.....Allaah sent him – meaning the Prophet  (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) – with the guiding Book and the conquering sword, ahead of the Hour, so that Allaah alone would be worshipped with no partner or associate, and his provision was placed beneath the shade of his sword and spear. Allaah has established the religion of Islam with proof and evidence, and with the sword and spear, both together and inseparable.
This is some of the evidence from the Qur’aan and Sunnah. The evidence clearly indicates that the sword is one of the most important means that led to the spread of Islam.
.....If Islam was only spread by peaceful means, what would the kuffaar have to be afraid of? Of mere words spoken on the tongue?
http://www.islamqa.com/en/ref/43087



and.....

Cleric preaches that violence is part of Islam
By Duncan Gardham
01/05/2007

In documents seen by The Daily Telegraph, al-Muhajiroun claimed: "Terrorism is a part of Islam" and "Allah made it obligatory to prepare and to terrify the enemy of Allah".
The article advised: "The kuffar of USA and UK are without doubt our enemy.There is no such thing as an innocent kafir, innocence is only applicable for the Muslims. Not only is it obligatory to fight them, it is haram [forbidden] to feel sorry for them."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1550211/Cleric-preaches-that-violence-is-part-of-Islam.html




Title: Re: Taking Jews and Christians as friends
Post by freediver on Feb 17th, 2009 at 2:11pm

Quote:
All you can really claim is Muslims have a different vision of justice to you


No. I can claim that Islam denies people justice. It considers the testimony of non-Muslims to be inferior. And before you bring up your common deceptions thread - all it contains on the issue is a strawman. All the quotes you can pull from the Koran about how wonderful justice is will not change this.

Title: Re: Taking Jews and Christians as friends
Post by abu_rashid on Feb 17th, 2009 at 4:54pm

Quote:
At an ISLAMIC website, a teacher of ISLAM answers a question.....


A Saudi government appointed scholar. Yeh real authentic.

Title: Re: Taking Jews and Christians as friends
Post by freediver on Feb 17th, 2009 at 5:16pm

abu_rashid wrote on Feb 17th, 2009 at 4:54pm:

Quote:
At an ISLAMIC website, a teacher of ISLAM answers a question.....


A Saudi government appointed scholar. Yeh real authentic.


Perhaps now you'll see why people ask Muslims what Islam is about, rather than trying to figure it out themselves with google. Same with Mormonism.

Title: Re: Taking Jews and Christians as friends
Post by Yadda on Feb 18th, 2009 at 9:51am

abu_rashid wrote on Feb 17th, 2009 at 4:54pm:

Quote:
At an ISLAMIC website, a teacher of ISLAM answers a question.....


A Saudi government appointed scholar. Yeh real authentic.





abu,

Is that as close as you get???
.....to criticism of, or denouncement of, a system [ISLAM] which perpetuates injustice and conflict in the world?


Your excuse always being,
.....when ISLAM / or some group of muslims are responsible for perpetuating some injustice, or violence, is,

...."Well those people are not real muslims."

.....and today it is,

...."Well those people are not real ISLAMIC scholars."



Next you'll be trying to convince we 'ignorant' Kuffar, that your own 'clique' [here in Australia] are the only true muslims.
And only your group [community of muslims] are still true to Allah's teachings???
/sarc off



abu,

Your arguments [deflections] are ridiculous, and wearing!



Why won't you admit it abu,
....that ISLAM is a deeply flawed philosophy, which can only ever find and 'realise' its own 'perfection', by blaming all of its own faults [more, more, more, deflection!], and 'loading' the 'guilt' for those 'offences'/faults on those who are outside of its 'group'.

"It is only those wicked unbelievers, who are responsible for all of these terrible things.
....Muslims are innocent."

/sarc off




When there is some 'fault' attributable to ISLAM / muslims,
......we always get the same story.......

ISLAM / muslims are good / innocent.
And [of course] everyone else is evil / 'guilty'.



Yet you fail to convince us abu, with TRUTH.






+++++++++++





ANOTHER GOOD EXAMPLE OF DEFLECTION [of 'blame' shifting].....



There Can Be No End to Jihad'
Islamist Sheikh Omar Bakri Muhammad, in an exclusive interview, discusses the rationale for 9/11, the Christians he most respects, and the Jesus he defends.
posted 11/05/2007
....Killing women and children never was and never will be part of the jihad in Islam, whether that be the women or children of the Muslims or non-Muslims.
.....However, if children are killed, the fault lies with the adult occupiers who brought them into a battlefield situation.
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2005/februaryweb-only/22.0.html



".....However, if children are killed, the fault lies with..."
.....somebody else of course, with infidels [who cause all wars, by their resistance to Sharia].


There is never, never, ever, any fault with ISLAM.


find this here on OZ Pol,

"Girls, gaining a muslim 'education'...."
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1226526640/0#0





Title: Re: Taking Jews and Christians as friends
Post by abu_rashid on Feb 18th, 2009 at 8:52pm

Quote:
".....However, if children are killed, the fault lies with..."


How is that any different from your blaming of the deaths of the 1300 civilians (many of them children) with the adults of Palestine? (and that's just this year)

The only difference I can see is Jews came to Palestine to start this conflict, Palestinians didn't goto Lithuania or Ukraine to start it with the Jews.

Title: Re: Taking Jews and Christians as friends
Post by soren on Feb 18th, 2009 at 9:26pm

abu_rashid wrote on Feb 18th, 2009 at 8:52pm:
The only difference I can see is Jews came to Palestine to start this conflict, Palestinians didn't goto Lithuania or Ukraine to start it with the Jews.


'ello, 'ello, 'ello, what's this, then?

The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem salutes Bosnian Muslim recruits to the Waffen-SS in 1943


Well, I never!

They are garden variety muslims, not palestinian muslims, so it's OK, I suppose.

mufti_1943.jpg (50 KB | 64 )

Title: Re: Taking Jews and Christians as friends
Post by abu_rashid on Feb 18th, 2009 at 9:51pm

Apart from it being tu quoque what on earth does it have to do with Palestinians going to Lithuania or Jews coming to Palestine being the cause of the current problems?

Title: Re: Taking Jews and Christians as friends
Post by soren on Feb 18th, 2009 at 11:28pm
The picture illustrates that the Muslims were eager part of the 'problem' that caused the need for Israel, with the chief Pallo mufti happily goose-stepping with the nazi chappies. Now why was the pallo spiritual ace 'sieg heiling' with the Waffen SS brothers? What is a Pallo mufti doing giving the nazi salute - in Europe, 5 years before israel was established?
He has no problem giving the sign of his submission (ahem) to the nazi leader. Is that halal?

Title: Re: Taking Jews and Christians as friends
Post by abu_rashid on Feb 19th, 2009 at 2:11am

Quote:
The picture illustrates that the Muslims were eager part of the 'problem' that caused the need for Israel


Cause and effect generally requires the cause to PRECEDE the effect.

Zionism began it's militant immigration-saturation program long before 1943.

This is just laughable really.

If there's any way in which the word 'caused' can be used in this situation, it would be that the militant immigration-saturation of Zionists in Palestine, CAUSED al-Husseini to resort to this.

Also let us not forget the statement of David Ben-Gurion (Prominent Zionist and Israel's first Prime Minister) himself:


Quote:
If I knew that it was possible to save all the children of Germany by transporting them to England, and only half by transferring them to the Land of Israel, I would choose the latter, for before us lies not only the numbers of these children but the historical reckoning of the people of Israel


Zionists couldn't have cared less what happened to their fellow Jews in Germany, so long as  it resulted in the world feeling sorry for them, and then giving them Palestine, they were prepared to let their own children pay the price.. in the gas chambers.


Title: Re: Taking Jews and Christians as friends
Post by soren on Feb 19th, 2009 at 9:04am

abu_rashid wrote on Feb 19th, 2009 at 2:11am:

Quote:
The picture illustrates that the Muslims were eager part of the 'problem' that caused the need for Israel


Cause and effect generally requires the cause to PRECEDE the effect.

Zionism began it's militant immigration-saturation program long before 1943.

This is just laughable really.

If there's any way in which the word 'caused' can be used in this situation, it would be that the militant immigration-saturation of Zionists in Palestine, CAUSED al-Husseini to resort to this.

Also let us not forget the statement of David Ben-Gurion (Prominent Zionist and Israel's first Prime Minister) himself:

[quote]If I knew that it was possible to save all the children of Germany by transporting them to England, and only half by transferring them to the Land of Israel, I would choose the latter, for before us lies not only the numbers of these children but the historical reckoning of the people of Israel


Zionists couldn't have cared less what happened to their fellow Jews in Germany, so long as  it resulted in the world feeling sorry for them, and then giving them Palestine, they were prepared to let their own children pay the price.. in the gas chambers.

[/quote]


I ask about the Mufti and you tell me about Ben Gurion. That's so neat: poor mufti and his followers were made to goose step and hail Adolf as the dear leader - by the joos!
The depth of muslim joo hatred and resentment is unfathomable. The whole of Islam is one giant dummy spit about the joos.


Title: Re: Taking Jews and Christians as friends
Post by abu_rashid on Feb 19th, 2009 at 7:40pm

Quote:
I ask about the Mufti and you tell me about Ben Gurion.


I know shocking isn't it. It was about as relevant as you telling me about the Mufti, when I was speaking about Palestinians not going to Lithuania.


Quote:
poor mufti and his followers were made to goose step and hail Adolf as the dear leader - by the joos!


Well, lets see. Out of all the Muslim countries with Muftis, only one of them is implicated in this. Yet of course it has nothing to do with the fact the Jews were taking over that country by stealth does it???

Doesn't mean siding with Nazis was a legitimate action, it was not. But we can obviously see why he did it, and why it wasn't the Mufti of Baghdad or Makkah or Damascus or Constantinople or Marrakesh or Tunis or Timbuktu or Cairo who was there.


Quote:
The depth of muslim joo hatred and resentment is unfathomable. The whole of Islam is one giant dummy spit about the joos


This is a very unfounded claim. Prior to the militant saturation-immigration of Palestine, few Muslims  had any problem with Jews, and as we know for the past 1400 years, they lived much better under Islam than under Christianity. Their stealthy take over of Palestine is what has caused this, and I'm sure if someone took over your country by stealth, you'd have probably more hatred for them. In fact you already have more hatred for Muslims, yet Muslims haven't even taken over so much as a local council in your country yet. When they take over half of your country, then let's see if your muslim-hatred matches theirs or surpasses it, My guess is it will be the latter.

Title: Re: Taking Jews and Christians as friends
Post by soren on Feb 19th, 2009 at 9:23pm
[quote author=abu_rashid link=1231993677/105#112 date=1235036425]

You mean "Their stealthy take over reclaiming of Palestine ... "

This is really thee sticking point.

Imagine if the Greeks came back and said, 'Oy, clear out of Constatipole, it's ours, you stole it, clear out. Same with the west coast of today's Turkey, Syria and Llebanon. All you blow in Arabs, back to Araby! Let us decolonise for real!!"

Would be as legit.
Same in israel.






Title: Re: Taking Jews and Christians as friends
Post by Lestat on Feb 20th, 2009 at 8:43am

Soren wrote on Feb 19th, 2009 at 9:23pm:
[quote author=abu_rashid link=1231993677/105#112 date=1235036425]

You mean "Their stealthy take over reclaiming of Palestine ... "

This is really thee sticking point.

Imagine if the Greeks came back and said, 'Oy, clear out of Constatipole, it's ours, you stole it, clear out. Same with the west coast of today's Turkey, Syria and Llebanon. All you blow in Arabs, back to Araby! Let us decolonise for real!!"

Would be as legit.
Same in israel.


Re-claiming...what, 2 thousand years later? lol, what a joke.

With your very limited understanding of history, it seems that you don't even know that these area's were ruled by others before the Greeks, or the Israeli's for that matter.

Much of Turkey belonged to the Hittites long before you Christians were murdering native inhabitants and destroying whole civilisations. After that, the Assyrians, after that, the Babylonians.

Israel has been ruled by many different empires, often for far longer then the Israeli's. The Egyptians ruled over Canaan for a couple of centuries, as well as the Assyrians, Babylonians, and Sumerians...all long before the Israelites arrived.

So using your stupid logic, then the Egyptians, also have every right to 're-claim' Palestine, having ruled over the land BEFORE the Israeli's, and for longer.

Oh, and also while we are at it, perhaps you should give up your home and land to the Aboriginals. After all, a 40,000 year claim is much stronger then the 2-300 odd years that Israel ruled over Palestine, and given you've already stated that 'such a claim is legit'..I would expect that you would put your money where mouth is and practise what your preach.

Perhaps they can even learn from the Urgan and Stern and resort to terrorist attacks, then perhaps they'd gain your support. After all, we've all seen how much you respect murderers. After all, you did say that 're-claiming' land is legit.

Title: Re: Taking Jews and Christians as friends
Post by abu_rashid on Feb 20th, 2009 at 9:31am

Quote:
Imagine if the Greeks came back and said, 'Oy, clear out of Constatipole, it's ours, you stole it, clear out. Same with the west coast of today's Turkey, Syria and Llebanon. All you blow in Arabs, back to Araby! Let us decolonise for real!!"


Ummm... Turkey is ruled by Turks, not Arabs. Nevermind, you almost managed to come up with a half relevant analogy. Better luck next time.

And in case you hadn't noticed, most Turks don't look overly Turkic (ie. Mongol type features), they're actually mostly Greek/Armenian/Kurdish/Balkan background, mixed also with Turkic people who settled there about a millenium ago. Many of the  Byzantine Greeks embraced Islam en masse when they saw the justice and fairness of it's systems. Some of the greatest Ottoman leaders were actually of Greek background, and quite a few of the Grand Wazirs (Prime Ministers) were actually Greek background.

Same goes for Palestine and Jews/Christians. Many of the modern day Palestinians are descendants of Jews and Christians. Even only a few generations back, quite a few Palestinians have Jewish/Christian ancestry.

Title: Re: Taking Jews and Christians as friends
Post by soren on Feb 20th, 2009 at 10:04am

Lestat wrote on Feb 20th, 2009 at 8:43am:
Israel has been ruled by many different empires, often for far longer then the Israeli's. The Egyptians ruled over Canaan for a couple of centuries, as well as the Assyrians, Babylonians, and Sumerians...all long before the Israelites arrived.

So using your stupid logic, then the Egyptians, also have every right to 're-claim' Palestine, having ruled over the land BEFORE the Israeli's, and for longer.

Sooo... what's so special about the pallos then? Pleople come and go, the pallos had a run, go to the back of the queue.

Title: Re: Taking Jews and Christians as friends
Post by soren on Feb 20th, 2009 at 10:10am

abu_rashid wrote on Feb 20th, 2009 at 9:31am:

Quote:
Imagine if the Greeks came back and said, 'Oy, clear out of Constatipole, it's ours, you stole it, clear out. Same with the west coast of today's Turkey, Syria and Llebanon. All you blow in Arabs, back to Araby! Let us decolonise for real!!"


Ummm... Turkey is ruled by Turks, not Arabs. Nevermind, you almost managed to come up with a half relevant analogy. Better luck next time.

And in case you hadn't noticed, most Turks don't look overly Turkic (ie. Mongol type features), they're actually mostly Greek/Armenian/Kurdish/Balkan background, mixed also with Turkic people who settled there about a millenium ago. Many of the  Byzantine Greeks embraced Islam en masse when they saw the justice and fairness of it's systems. Some of the greatest Ottoman leaders were actually of Greek background, and quite a few of the Grand Wazirs (Prime Ministers) were actually Greek background.

Same goes for Palestine and Jews/Christians. Many of the modern day Palestinians are descendants of Jews and Christians. Even only a few generations back, quite a few Palestinians have Jewish/Christian ancestry.


See? What's the problem then? They were joos and Christians before the Muslim invasion, and now they back under the rulers they once had.

Your bellyache is about Islam, nor race or nationality.

Title: Re: Taking Jews and Christians as friends
Post by Lestat on Feb 20th, 2009 at 10:25am

Soren wrote on Feb 20th, 2009 at 10:04am:

Lestat wrote on Feb 20th, 2009 at 8:43am:
Israel has been ruled by many different empires, often for far longer then the Israeli's. The Egyptians ruled over Canaan for a couple of centuries, as well as the Assyrians, Babylonians, and Sumerians...all long before the Israelites arrived.

So using your stupid logic, then the Egyptians, also have every right to 're-claim' Palestine, having ruled over the land BEFORE the Israeli's, and for longer.

Sooo... what's so special about the pallos then? Pleople come and go, the pallos had a run, go to the back of the queue.


Whats so special about the jooooos, that you believe they have the right to re-claim a land they ruled over...more then 2000 years ago.

Why is their claim 'legit', whilst, the 'Pallows' as you childishly put it, are not. Couldn't be because their arabs could it.

The very little credibility you ever had is very quickly disapearing.

Title: Re: Taking Jews and Christians as friends
Post by Yadda on Feb 20th, 2009 at 10:47am

abu_rashid wrote on Feb 18th, 2009 at 8:52pm:
....How is that any different from your blaming of the deaths of the 1300 civilians (many of them children) with the adults of Palestine? (and that's just this year)



abu,

Here is an update on those '1300' dead 'Palestinians'...

"......According to the Post, the CLA said "580 of these 1,200 had been conclusively 'incriminated' as members of Hamas and other terrorist groups."......Corriere quoted "a doctor" in Gaza's Shifa hospital saying the death toll could not be more than 600, reporting that the dead mainly consisted of young Hamas fighters between 17-23 years old."



Errr.....600 [total] minus 580 [Hamas fighters casualties], equals a probable 20 civilian casualties.
......whose blood, is on the hands of Hamas.


"We don't target civilians claims IDF"
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1232747563/12#12


It turns out, almost all of the Gaza casualties may have been Hamas fighters.

And these Hamas fighters all WANTED to die for Allah.

So at least they themselves [the Hamas fighters], and their families, must be very happy.







Title: Re: Taking Jews and Christians as friends
Post by soren on Feb 20th, 2009 at 2:42pm

Lestat wrote on Feb 20th, 2009 at 10:25am:
Whats so special about the jooooos, that you believe they have the right to re-claim a land they ruled over...more then 2000 years ago.



Dunno. I didn't give them Israel, the UN did. Ask them.




Title: Re: Taking Jews and Christians as friends
Post by abu_rashid on Feb 20th, 2009 at 10:15pm
Ahhh the ol' "U.N gave it to us" retort.

Funny you only recognise the U.N when they granted half of Palestine to the Zionists, not when they have conferences denouncing Zionism as racist and resolutions to withdraw etc.

Title: Re: Taking Jews and Christians as friends
Post by abu_rashid on Feb 20th, 2009 at 10:20pm

Quote:
580 of these 1,200 had been conclusively 'incriminated' as members of Hamas and other terrorist groups


What a load of rot, every single one of them was a member of Hamas or some other terrorist group. Not a single Palestinian is a civilian, they're ALL militants, terrorists etc.

Title: Re: Taking Jews and Christians as friends
Post by soren on Feb 21st, 2009 at 10:43pm

abu_rashid wrote on Feb 20th, 2009 at 10:15pm:
Ahhh the ol' "U.N gave it to us" retort.

Funny you only recognise the U.N when they granted half of Palestine to the Zionists, not when they have conferences denouncing Zionism as racist and resolutions to withdraw etc.



Yeah, I am thinking for myself.
How f@*^*%  funny and unusual is that for a Muslim.


Title: Re: Taking Jews and Christians as friends
Post by Yadda on Feb 22nd, 2009 at 4:39pm

abu_rashid wrote on Feb 20th, 2009 at 10:20pm:

Quote:
580 of these 1,200 had been conclusively 'incriminated' as members of Hamas and other terrorist groups


What a load of rot, every single one of them was a member of Hamas or some other terrorist group. Not a single Palestinian is a civilian, they're ALL militants, terrorists etc.



abu,

We have to disagree again.

I think that some of those Gazan casualties were probably innocents.

I also think that the blood of those innocents, is on the hands of Hamas, and its cadres.



I am very sorry for the loss of innocent life.


Title: Re: Taking Jews and Christians as friends
Post by abu_rashid on Feb 22nd, 2009 at 8:04pm
Even if they were innocent and didn't actively participate in the defence of their homes and land. I guarantee you most of them supported Hamas in doing that.


Quote:
I also think that the blood of those innocents, is on the hands of Hamas, and its cadres


Of course it is. After all, we couldn't blame it on the people who actually launched the rockets that flattened their homes, or the soldiers who gunned them down etc. could we? Especially not when the IDF propaganda team.. err umm I mean spokesman tells us they're to blame.


Quote:
I am very sorry for the loss of innocent life.


Yeh I'm sure you are. You're glad to get rid of a few more Muslims/Arabs, and make a little more room for a few more Jews to be crammed into occupied-Palestine., so they can usher in the second coming for you. That's all Palestinians are, for Western Christian fruitcakes, is just an obstacle to the second coming.

Title: Re: Taking Jews and Christians as friends
Post by freediver on Feb 22nd, 2009 at 8:22pm
So it is all about the joos eh Abu?

Title: Re: Taking Jews and Christians as friends
Post by abu_rashid on Feb 22nd, 2009 at 8:30pm
Can you elaborate a little fd... is what all about the Jews?

The deaths of Palestinians? Of course it is. To suggest otherwise is just nonsensical.

Title: Re: Taking Jews and Christians as friends
Post by abu_rashid on Feb 22nd, 2009 at 8:34pm
btw fd, just wondering why you haven't touched this thread yet? After all, you're the one always mouthing off about how successful the U.S have been in Iraq.

Specifically I'm interested in your response to quotes like this from, not Sunni militants, but from Christian Iraqis:


Quote:
Sabah Yeldo, a Christian who owns a liquor store across town, says American failures have left the capital with higher crime and less-reliable services, including electricity. That is "making everybody look back and seriously consider having Saddam back again instead of the Americans."


Title: Re: Taking Jews and Christians as friends
Post by freediver on Feb 22nd, 2009 at 8:34pm

Quote:
Yeh I'm sure you are. You're glad to get rid of a few more Muslims/Arabs, and make a little more room for a few more Jews to be crammed into occupied-Palestine., so they can usher in the second coming for you. That's all Palestinians are, for Western Christian fruitcakes, is just an obstacle to the second coming

Title: Re: Taking Jews and Christians as friends
Post by freediver on Feb 22nd, 2009 at 8:36pm
Abu, you can always find someone who was happier under the dictatorship. Plenty of Germans preferred it when the nazis were building nice railway lines.

Title: Re: Taking Jews and Christians as friends
Post by abu_rashid on Feb 22nd, 2009 at 8:41pm

71% of those polled say the U.S are occupiers...

If the pro-U.S Kurds are left out that number rises to 81%.

Why are you so hesistant to discuss the issue now? You've been throwing it around in thread after thread, now all of a sudden it's not a topic of interest to you?

Title: Re: Taking Jews and Christians as friends
Post by freediver on Feb 22nd, 2009 at 8:44pm
I think the US are occupiers as well. What else would they be? If you ask a stupid question you will get a stupid answer.

Title: Re: Taking Jews and Christians as friends
Post by Yadda on Feb 23rd, 2009 at 10:21am

abu_rashid wrote on Feb 22nd, 2009 at 8:04pm:

Quote:
I am very sorry for the loss of innocent life.


Yeh I'm sure you are. You're glad to get rid of a few more Muslims/Arabs, and make a little more room for a few more Jews to be crammed into occupied-Palestine., so they can usher in the second coming for you. That's all Palestinians are, for Western Christian fruitcakes, is just an obstacle to the second coming.



When the God of Israel reveals himself to all flesh, his judgement and righteousness will then be apparent to the hearts of all men.

And men will be ashamed, and tremble.



abu,

Surely you welcome the coming of God's justice, to the affairs of man?

'Palestinians', or no 'Palestinians', .....there will be no obstacle to God's will, and his righteousness.

Whether we live, or whether we die, we are all, God's possession.

abu,

Be glad of that TRUTH.




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