For those who miss Lestat and Abu Rashid

www.aussiemuslims.com/



:P

I just had a quick look - and was quite shocked.  It looks like a chauvenistic paradise.  Sorry to any Muslims who are reading this - but I had to copy a little off a thread that would have had the average western woman bubbling over in anger.

Some of this is a given - but the rest sounds like a huge burden a Muslim female would have to carry:

Dear Muslim Sisters,to help strengthening the Muslim families and spread the teachings of Islam in building families, the Muslim Students' Association at the University of Alberta prepared a extremely summarized translation for two books. The books are Arabic by Sheikh Mohammad Abdelhaleem Hamed. An Egyptian scholar, who graduated from the Islamic University of AlMadinah Al-Munawwarah in Saudi Arabia. The two books are:

1- How to make your wife happy
2- How to make your husband happy

Every single item mentioned by the author is supported by evidences from Qur'an, Sunnah or the actions of the companions, but evidences are omitted in this translation. The following is the translation of the SECOND book.


1. Beautiful Reception.

-After returning from work, school, travel, or whatever has separated you, begin with a good greeting
-Meet him with a cheerful face.
-Beautify and perfume yourself
-Start with good news and delay any bad news until he has rested
-Receive him with loving and yearning sentences
-Make hard efforts for excellence of the food & having it ready on time.

2. Beautify and Soften the Voice

-For your husband only, it shouldn't be used in front of non-mahram men (men who can marry you if you were unmarried)

3. Smelling Good and Physical Beautification

-Taking good care of your body and fitness
-Put on nice and attractive clothes and perfumes
-Bath regularly and, after the monthly period, remove any blood traces or bad smells
-Avoid that your husband observes you in dirty clothes or rough shape
-Avoid prohibited types of ornamentation, e.g. tatoo
-Use the types of perfumes, colors, and clothes that the husband likes
-Change hair style, perfumes, etc. from time to time
However with these things you should avoid excessiveness and, of course, only act as such in front of mahrem men and women.

4. Intercourse

-Hasten for intercourse when your husband feels compulsion for it.
-Keep your body clean and smelling good as possible including cleaning yourself of released fluids during intercourse.
-Exchange loving phrases with your husband.
-Leave your husband to fully satisfy his desire.
-Choose suitable times and good occasions for exciting your husband, and encouraging him to do intercourse, e.g. after returning from a travel, weekends, etc.

5. Satisfaction With What Allah (SWT) Has Allotted

-You shouldn't be depressed because your husband is poor or works in a simple job.
-You should look at poor, sick, and handicapped people and remember Allah (SWT) for all that was given to you
-You should remember that real wealth lays in Iman and piety.

6. Indifference to Worldly Things

-You should not consider this world as your hope and interest
-You should not ask your husband for many unnecessary things
-Asceticism does not mean not to enjoy what is good and permissible (Halal), but it means that one should look forward to the hereafter and utilize whatever Allah SWT gave them to achieve paradise (Jannah).
-Encourage your husband to reduce expenses and save some money in order to give charity and feed poor and needy people.

7. Appreciation

-By the saying of the prophet, the majority of people in hell were women because they were ungrateful and deny the good done to them.
The result of being grateful is that your husband will love you more and will do his best to please you in more ways
The result of being ungrateful is that your husband will be dissappointed and will start asking himself: Why should I do good to her, if she never appreciates?

8. Devotion and Loyalty

-In particular in times of calamities in your husband's body or business, e.g. an accident or a bankruptcy
-Supporting him through your own work, money, and properties if needed.

9. Compliance to Him

-In all what he commands you, unless it is prohibited (Haram).
-In Islam, the husband is the leader of the family, and the wife is his support and consultant

10. Pleasing Him If He Is Angry

-First off, try to avoid what will guarantee his anger.
-But if it happens that you can't, then try to appease him as follows:
1- If you mistaken, then apologize
2- If he mistaken then:
# Keep still instead of arguing or
# Yield you were right or
# Wait until he is no longer angry and discuss the matter peacefully with him.
3- If he was angry because of external reasons then:
# Keeping silent untill his anger goes
# Find execuses for him, e.g. tired, problems at work, some one insulted him
# Do not ask many questions and insist on knowing what happened, e.g.
1) You should tell me what happened?
2) I must know what made you so angry.
3) You are hidding something, and I have the right to know11.

continued

11. Guardianship While He is Absent

-Protecting yourself from any prohibited relations
-Keep the secrets of the family, particularly intercourse and things that the husbands don't like other people to know
-Take care of the house and children
-Take care of his money and properties
-Do not go out of your house without his permission and put on full hijab
-Refuse people whom he does not like to come over
-Do not allow any non-mahram man to be alone with you in any place
-Be good with his parents and relatives in his absence

12. Showing Respect for his Family and Friends

-You should welcome his guests and try to please them, especially his parents
-You should avoid problems as much as you can with his relatives
-You should avoid putting him is a position where he had to choose between his mother and his wife
-Show good hospitality for his guests by arranging a nice place for them to sit in, perfection of food, welcoming their wives, etc.
-Encourage him to visit his relatives and invite them to your home.
-Phone his parents and sisters, send letters to them, buy gifts for them, support them in calamities, etc.

13. Admirable Jealousy

-Jealousy is a sign for wife's love for her husband but it should be kept within the limits of Islam, e.g. not insulating or backbiting others, disrespecting them, etc.
-You should not follow or create unfounded doubts.

14. Patience and Emotional Support

-Be patient when you face poverty and strained circumstances.
-When you face calamities and disasters that may happen to you, your husband, your children, relatives or properties, e.g. diseases, accidents, death, etc.
-When facing hardships in Da'wah (imprisonment, getting fired, arrested, etc.), be patient and encourage him to keep on the path of Allah and remind him of paradise.
-When he mistreats you, counteract his ill-treatment by good treatment

15. Support in Obedience to Allah, Da'wah and Jihad

-Cooperate with your husband and remind him of different obligatory and voluntary worships.* Encourage him to pray at night.
-Listen and reciting the Qur'an individually and with your husband.
-Listen to Islamic tapes and songs individually and with your husband.
-Remember Allah SWT much, particularly after Fajr and before Maghrib.
-Share in arranging Da'wah activities for women and children.
-Learn Islamic rules (ahkam) and good manners ('adab) for women.
-Support your husband's activities by encouraging him, offering wise opinions, soothing his pains, etc.
-Yielding some of your rights and a part of your time with your husband for Da'wah.
-Encourage him to go for Jihad when needed and remind him that you and children will be in the preservation of Allah SWT.

16. Good Housekeeping

-Keep it clean, decorated and well arranged.
-Change house arrangements from time to time to avoid boredom.
-Perfect of food and prepare healthy foods.
-Learn all the necessary skills for managing the house, e.g. sewing.
-Learn how to raise children properly and in an Islamic way.

17. Preservation of Finances and the Family

-Do not spend from his money, even for charity without his permission unless you are sure that he agrees on this.
-Protect his house, car, etc. while he is absent.
-Keep the children in good shape, clean clothes, etc. Take care of their nutrition, health, education, manners, etc. Teach them Islam and tell them the stories of the Prophets and companions.

Then someone writes:

Where is the article on how to make your WIFE happy??
This IS that article.

A wife is only ever happy when serving her husband? Didn't you know that yet?

lol.. joking.

The best couple are the ones that help each other and make each other happy. They don't have to force themselves to do so against theiw will, rather they do it without thinking because of their love for each other.

Then:

How to Win the Love of your Partner.

Some advice to the Brothers:

Men want to know that they have ultimate control over their wife. Besides it being their right, it’s also their ego that sometimes controls their actions so that they are too proud to be gentle and kind, because they feel that they are giving in or being too soft, but the opposite of this is true. Brothers, do you know that you already have such control? A simple word or two of praise and appreciation to your wife gives her such feelings inside of love and peace that all she will want to do is to do is to do more for you. It is the natural feeling of complete joy that Allah has built into women that makes them such good wives and mothers. You have the key to bringing out that natural state of submission in them. Just a few words, or a loving look, or gentle touch, to let her know that you appreciate her efforts to please you.

There is more of course - but it has surprised me that this is going on here in Australia and modern women are accepting it.

Excellent ;D

All wives should be like that.  ;)

mod: offensive

Woohoo! Still, to hell with the UMMAH.

mantra- do you have the link to that topic?

forget it- I found the topic

makes me wonder why you didn't post the article towards husbands mantra

1. Beautiful Reception.

-After returning from work, school, travel, or whatever has separated you,begin with a good greeting
start with Assalamau 'Aliaykum and a smile. Salam is a sunnah and a du'aa for her as well
-Shake her hand and leave bad news for later!

2. Sweet Speech and Enchanting Invitations

-Choose words that are positive and avoid negative ones
-Give her your attention when you speak or she speaks
-Speak with clarity and repeat words if necessary until she understands
-Call her nice names that she likes, e.g. my sweet-heart, honey, saaliha, etc

3. Friendliness and Recreation

-Spend time talking together
-Spread to her good news
-Remember your good memories together

4. Games and Distractions

-Joking around & having a sense of humor
-Playing and competing with each other in sports or whatever
-Taking her to watch permissible (halal) types of entertainment
-Avoiding prohibited (haram) things in your choices of entertainment

5. Assistance in the Household

-Doing what you as an individual can/like to do that helps out, especially if she is sick or tired
-The most important thing is making it obvious that he appreciates her hard work

6. Consultation (Shurah) Specifically in family matters

-Giving her the feeling that her opinion is important to you
-Studying her opinion carefully
-Be willing to change an opinion for hers if it is better
-Thanking her for helping you with her opinions

7. Visiting Others

-Choosing well raised people to build relations with. There is a great reward in visiting relatives and pious people. (Not in wasting time while visiting!)
-Pay attention to ensure Islamic manners during visits
-Not forcing her to visit whom she does not feel comfortable with

8. Conduct During Travel

-Offer a warm farewell and good advice
-Ask her to pray for him
-Ask pious relatives and friends to take care of the family in your absence
-Give her enough money for what she might need
-Try to stay in touch with her whether by phone, e-mail, letters, etc.
-Return as soon as possible
-Bring her a gift!
-Avoid returning at an unexpected time or at night
-Take her with you if possible

9. Financial Support

-The husband needs to be generous within his financial capabilities. He should not be a miser with his money (nor wasteful).
-He gets rewards for all what he spends on her sustenance even for a small piece of bread that he feeds her by his hand (hadeith).
-He is strongly encouraged to give to her before she asks him.

10. Smelling Good and Physical Beautification

-Following the Sunnah in removing hair from the groin and underarms.
-Always being clean and neat
-Put on perfume for her

11. Intercourse

-It is obligatory to do it habitually if you have no excuse (sickness, etc.)
-Start with "Bismillah" and the authentic du'a.
-Enter into her in the proper place only (not the anus)
-Begin with foreplay including words of love
-Continue until you have satisfied her desire
-Relax and joke around afterwards
-Avoid intercourse during the monthly period because it haram
-Do what you can to avoid damaging her level of Hiyaa (shyness and modesty) such as taking your clothes together instead of asking her to do it first while you are looking on
-Avoid positions during intercourse that may harm her such as putting pressure on her chest and blocking her breath, especially if you are heavy
-Choose suitable times for intercourse and be considerate as sometimes she maybe sick or exhausted.

12. Guarding Privacy

-Avoid disclosing private information such as bedroom secrets, her personal problems and other private matters.

13. Aiding in the Obedience to Allah

-Wake her up in the last third of the night to pray "Qiam-ul-Layl" (extra prayer done at night with long sujood and ruku'ua)
-Teach her what you know of the Qur'an and its tafseer
-Teach her "Dhikr" (ways to remember Allah by the example of the prophet) in the morning and evening
-Encourage her to spend money for the sake of Allah such as in a charity sale
-Take her to Hajj and Umrah when you can afford to do so

14. Showing Respect for her Family and Friends

-Take her to visit her family and relatives, especially her parents
-Invite them to visit her and welcome them
-Give them presents on special occasions
-Help them when needed with money, effort, etc.
-Keep good relations with her family after her death if she dies first. Also in this case the husband is encouraged to follow the sunnah and keep giving what she used to give in her life to her friends and
family.

15. (Islamic) Training & Admonition. This includes:

-The basics of Islam
-Her duties and rights
-Reading and writing
-Encouraging her to attend lessons and halaqahs
-Islamic rules (ahkam) related to women
-Buying Islamic books and tapes for the home library

16. Admirable Jealousy

-Ensure she is wearing proper hijab before leaving house
-Restrict free mixing with non-mahram men
-Avoiding excess jealousy. Examples of this are:
1- Analyzing every word and sentence she says and overloading her speech by meanings that she did not mean
2- Preventing her from going out of the house when the reasons are just
3- Preventing her from answering the phone.
4- etc.

17. Patience and Mildness

-Problems are expected in every marriage so this is normal. What is wrong is excessive responses and magnifying problems until a marital breakdown.
-Anger should be shown when she exceeds the boundaries of Allah SWT, by delaying prayers, backbiting, watching prohibited scenes on TV, etc.
-Forgive the mistakes she does to you (See item 18)
-How can you best correct her mistakes?
1- First, implicit and explicit advice several times.
2- Then by turning your back to her in bed (displaying your feelings). Note that this does not include leaving the bedroom to another room, leaving the house to another place, or not talking with her.
3- The last solution is lightly hitting (when allowable) her. In this case, the hsuband should consider the following:
-He should know that sunnah is to avoid beating as the Prophet PBUH never beat a woman or a servant.
-He should do it only in extreme cases of disobedience, e.g. refusing intercourse without cause frequently, constantly not praying on time, leaving the house for long periods of time without permission nor refusing to tell him where she had been, etc.
-It should not be done except after having turned from her bed and discussing the matter with her as mentioned in Qur'an
-He should not hit her hard injuring her, or hit her on her face or on sensitive parts of her body
-He should avoid shaming her such as by hitting her with a shoe, etc.

18. Pardoning and Appropriate Censure

-Accounting her only for larger mistakes
-Forgive mistakes done to him but account her for mistakes done in Allah's rights, e.g. delaying prayers, etc.
-Remember all the good she does whenever she makes a mistake
-Remember that all humans err so try to find excuses for her such as maybe she is tired, sad, having her monthly cycle or that her commitment to Islam is growing
-Avoid attacking her for the bad cooking of the food as the Prophet PBUH never blamed any of his wives for this. If he likes the food, he eats and if he doesn't then he does not eat and does not comment
-Before declaring her to be in error, try other indirect approaches that are more subtle than direct accusations
-Escape from using insults and words that may hurt her feelings
-When it becomes necessary to discuss a problem wait until you have privacy from others
-Waiting until the anger has subsided a bit can help to keep a control on your words.

I didn't notice it at the time Gaybriel - I was too stunned by what a female has to do to please the male.

Even so - looking at both articles - are Muslim males and females supposed to be that polite to each other?  It would make for a boring superficial marriage - although I'm sure human nature intervenes at times and they veer off track.

What about this:

Hasten for intercourse when your husband feels compulsion for it.

And then this:

-Ensure she is wearing proper hijab before leaving house
-Restrict free mixing with non-mahram men

What's a non-mahram man?

And this:

-How can you best correct her mistakes?

1- First, implicit and explicit advice several times.
2- Then by turning your back to her in bed (displaying your feelings). Note that this does not include leaving the bedroom to another room, leaving the house to another place, or not talking with her.
3- The last solution is lightly hitting (when allowable) her. In this case, the husband should consider the following: -He should know that sunnah is to avoid beating as the Prophet PBUH never beat a woman or a servant.
-He should do it only in extreme cases of disobedience, e.g. refusing intercourse without cause frequently, constantly not praying on time, leaving the house for long periods of time without permission nor refusing to tell him where she had been, etc.
-It should not be done except after having turned from her bed and discussing the matter with her as mentioned in Qur'an
-He should not hit her hard injuring her, or hit her on her face or on sensitive parts of her body
-He should avoid shaming her such as by hitting her with a shoe, etc.

Why can't she correct his mistakes?  Hitting in any form, unless it's playful is abuse.  Why are Muslim males allowed to hit their partners?  Can the Muslim woman give her husband a slap occasionally if he annoys her?

it is merely advice- not enforced rules.

if I were married and my husband wanted to have sex then I would do my best to satisfy his need- I just think that;s part of being a good partner.

note that if a woman doesn't want to have sex she doesn't have to. but many psychologist, counsellors etc would agree that many relationships break down because of an unsatisfactory sex life.

I will post something up here as well that discusses how men should treat women during sex in islam

as to the hitting- this is supposed to be the absolute last last last resort and I believe the description given is of a 'slight tap with a miswak'. a miswak is the equivalent of a toothbrush. and the tap should not be delivered to the face or front of the body (let me check on that- but I know not the face for sure)

as for women slapping their husbands- yes this is allowed (although there may be difference of opinion on this)

as to hijab- this is a islamic requirement, no surprise there. but again- a husband shouldn't force his wife to do anything against his will (these kinds of overarching principles are the things such statements should be read in context of)

and a mahram man is a man who is a relative. some people believe a woman should only interact with her mahrams. the same restrictions applies to mens interactions with women of course- that should only interact with their relos.

of course there are varying opinions etc

sorry- where does it say she shouldn't correct him?

Quote:

sorry- where does it say she shouldn't correct him?

Where does it say "she should correct him"?  There's nothing in those guidelines about hitting your husband with an object the size of a toothbrush either.

This comment is puzzling as well.

When he mistreats you, counteract his ill-treatment by good treatment

Isn't that just rewarding him for bad behaviour.  We are taught not to do that with our children - so why would Islam advise such a thing?

Gaybriel - you mentioned in one of your early posts that you were a feminist - how do you personally feel about the following:

9. Compliance to Him

-In all what he commands you, unless it is prohibited (Haram).
-In Islam, the husband is the leader of the family, and the wife is his support and consultant

Now this is a real toughie.  What if you hate your mother-in-law and want to lead a life independant of your husband's family?  

You should avoid putting him is a position where he had to choose between his mother and his wife

Obviously the above is palatable to many because Islam is the fastest growing religion on the planet - although it's very difficult to see the appeal from a non-religious point of view.

mantra wrote on Nov 29^th, 2008 at 6:31pm:

Quote: sorry- where does it say she shouldn't correct him? Where does it say "she should correct him"?  There's nothing in those guidelines about hitting your husband with an object the size of a toothbrush either.

no because a female doesn't have to comply to those conditions. but like I said, it depends on the school of thought. I don't know the background of this guy- so he may disagree.


Quote:

This comment is puzzling as well. When he mistreats you, counteract his ill-treatment by good treatment Isn't that just rewarding him for bad behaviour.  We are taught not to do that with our children - so why would Islam advise such a thing?

yes I'm not sure about the logic in that one either. does he mean that if your husband is rude towards you that you should be extra polite to lead by example? what does he mean by ill treatment?

abuse etc is not allowable in islam- so I assume he is not referring to that. but it certainly does need clarification- because it's all very well to say that, but ultimately = does it teach the husband anything? not all people have the ability to be self-critical, sometimes they need their partner to do it.


Quote:

Gaybriel - you mentioned in one of your early posts that you were a feminist - how do you personally feel about the following: 9. Compliance to Him -In all what he commands you, unless it is prohibited (Haram). -In Islam, the husband is the leader of the family, and the wife is his support and consultant

personally I have real problems with this. I have spoken with muslims about this before- I think it's silly to appoint someone a leader merely because of their gender. I think it should be an equal partnership.


Quote:

Now this is a real toughie.  What if you hate your mother-in-law and want to lead a life independant of your husband's family?   You should avoid putting him is a position where he had to choose between his mother and his wife Obviously the above is palatable to many because Islam is the fastest growing religion on the planet - although it's very difficult to see the appeal from a non-religious point of view.

well it does say 'avoid' which would imply 'if possible'- it's not saying you're going to burn in hell if you can't avoid it. I think in most marriages it's advisable to avoid forcing your partner to choose between you and their parents.

Turning Sex into Sadaqah

[an act of voluntary kindness pleasing to God]

by Sr.Ruqaiyyah Waris Maqsood.

(An excerpt from 'The Muslim Marriage Guide').

"Women shall have rights similar to the rights upon them; according to what is equitable and just; and men have a degree of advantage over them." (Quran, 2:216)


They do indeed! This passage of the Holy Quran was revealed in connection with the rights of women following a divorce, but it also has a general sense. One basic right of every person taking on a contract never to have sex other than with their own legitimate partner is that each spouse should therefore provide sexual fulfillment (imta') to the other, as part of the bargain.


Now, every man knows what sexual things please him--but some men, particularly those who have not been married before and are therefore lacking experience, don't seem to know much about how to give the same pleasure to the woman; even worse, some men do know but they can't be bothered to make the effort. Yet this is vital if a marriage is to succeed and not just be a disappointing burden for the woman, and it is a vital part of one's Islamic duty.


It is not acceptable for a Muslim man just to satisfy himself while ignoring his wife's needs. Experts agree that the basic psychological need of a man is respect, while that of a woman is love. Neither respect nor love are things that can be forced--they have to be worked for, and earned. The Prophet (s) stated that in one's sexual intimacy with one's life partner there is sadaqa (worship through giving):


God's Messenger(s) said: "In the sexual act of each of you there is a sadaqa." The Companions replied: "0 Messenger of God! When one of us fulfils his sexual desire, will he be given a reward for that?" And he said, "Do you not think that were he to act upon it unlawfully, he would be sinning? Likewise, if he acts upon it lawfully he will be rewarded." (Muslim)


This hadith only makes sense if the sexual act is raised above the mere animal level.


What is the magic ingredient that turns sex into sadaqa, that makes it a matter of reward or punishment from Allah? It is by making one's sex life more than simple physical gratification; it is by thought for pleasing Allah by unselfish care for one's partner. A husband that cannot understand this will never be fully respected by his wife.

Neither spouse should ever act in a manner that would be injurious or harmful to their conjugal life. Nikah is the sacred tie between husband and wife, that sincere and devoted love without which they cannot attain happiness and peace of mind.


"Of His signs is this: that He created for you spouses that you might find rest in them, and He ordained between you love and mercy." (Surah 30:21)


Now, every Muslim knows that a man has a right on his wife. However, because nikah is a contract never to seek sexual satisfaction outside the marriage bond, Islam commands not only the women but the men in this respect, and makes it clear that if a husband is not aware of the urges and needs of his wife, he will be committing a sin by depriving her of her rights.



According to all four orthodox jurists, it is incumbent upon the husband to keep his wife happy and pleased in this respect. Likewise, it is essential for the wife to satisfy the desire of the husband. Neither should reject the other, unless there is some lawful excuse.



Now, it is fairly easy for a woman to satisfy a man and make herself available to him, even if she is not really in the mood. It is far harder for a man to satisfy a woman if he is not in the mood, and this is where an important aspect of male responsibility needs to be brought to every Muslim man's attention, and stressed strongly.



The jurists believed that a woman's private parts needed "protecting" (tahsin). What they meant was that it was important for a Muslim husband to satisfy his wife's sexual needs so that she would not be tempted to commit zina out of despair or frustration.



A Muslim wife is not merely a lump of flesh without emotions or feelings, just there to satisfy a man's natural urges. On the contrary, her body contains a soul no less important in God's sight than her husband's. Her heart is very tender and delicate, and crude or rough manners would hurt her feelings and drive away love. The husband would be both foolish and immoral to act in any way unpalatable to her natural temperament, and a man selfishly seeking his own satisfaction without considering that of his wife is a selfish boor. In fact, according to a hadith:



"Three things are counted inadequacies in a man. Firstly, meeting someone he would like to get to know, and taking leave of him before learning his name and his family. Secondly, rebuffing the generosity that another shows to him. And thirdly, going to his wife and having intercourse with her before talking to her and gaining her intimacy, satisfying his need from her before she has satisfied her need from him." (Daylami)

....

[cont]

These "kisses and words" do not just include foreplay once intimacy has commenced. To set the right mood, little signals should begin well in advance, so that the wife has a clue as to what is coming, and is pleasantly expectant, and also has adequate time to make herself clean, attractive and ready. As regards intimacy itself, all men know that they cannot achieve sexual fulfillment if they are not aroused. They should also realise that it is actually harmful and painful for the female organs to be used for sex without proper preparation. In simple biological terms, the woman's private parts need a kind of natural lubrication before the sexual act takes place. For this, Allah has created special glands, known to modern doctors as the Bartholin glands, which provide the necessary "oils."



It is still possible to read old-fashioned advice to husbands that a desirable wife should be "dry"--which is remarkable ignorance and makes one really grieve for the poor wives of such inconsiderate men. Just as no one would dream of trying to run an engine without the correct lubricating fluids, it is the same, through the creative will of Allah, with the parts of the female body designed for sexual intimacy. A husband should know how to stimulate the production of these "oils" in his wife, or at the very least allow her to use some artificial "oils." This lack of knowledge or consideration is where so many marital problems frequently arise.



As Imam al-Ghazali says: "Sex should begin with gentle words and kissing," and Imam al-Zabidi adds: "This should include not only the cheeks and lips; and then he should caress the breasts and nipples, and every part of her body." (Zabidi, Ithaf al-Sada al Muttaqin, V 372) Most men will not need telling this; but it should be remembered that failure to observe this Islamic practice is to neglect or deny the way Allah has created women.



Insulting a wife with bad marital manners.

Firstly, a husband must overcome his shyness enough to actually look at his wife, and pay attention to her. If he cannot bring himself to follow this sunna, it is an insult to her, and extremely hurtful. Personal intimacy is a minefield of opportunities to hurt each other--glancing at the watch, a yawn at the wrong moment, appearing bored, and so on. A husband's duty is to convince his wife that he does love her--and this can only be done by word (constantly repeated word, I might add--such is the irritating nature of women!), and by looking and touching.



Many people believe that the expression in the eyes reveals much of the human soul. Certainly the lover's gaze is a most endearing and treasured thing. Many wives yearn for that gaze of love, even after they have been married for years. If you cannot bring yourself to look at her while paying attention to her, she can only interpret this as a sign that you do not really love her. And even though it may be irritating to you, and seem quite superfluous, most women are deeply moved when a man actually tells her that he loves her.

Sex is clean!


A modest upbringing is part of good character. The Prophet (s) himself said: "Modesty brings nothing but good." (Bukhari and Muslim) But another, also important, part of Islamic teaching says that all of Allah's creation is beautiful and pure, particularly when it is part of the body of human beings, who are designed as His deputies upon the earth. In some religions, people traditionally believed that the woman's private parts are in some way unclean, or dirty, or even evil.

Gaybriel, on my read, you are out of your depth and you are being fed with gibber.

Quote:

Turning Sex into Sadaqah [an act of voluntary kindness pleasing to God] by Sr.Ruqaiyyah Waris Maqsood. (An excerpt from 'The Muslim Marriage Guide'). "Women shall have rights similar to the rights upon them; according to what is equitable and just; and men have a degree of advantage over them." (Quran, 2:216)

The extract from the above author sounds very nice, polite, sensitive and pleasant Gaybriel - but very naive unless you were dealing with a couple of 10 year olds.  I doubt it would be much different to a Christian Marriage Guide at first glance.

But in the back of your mind you know that under Sharia Law, Muslim males are permitted more than one wife - and any excuse could be used to justify taking on a 2nd, third or fourth wife - particularly if  the first wife was considered frigid.

Yes there are Christian cults and sects who indulge in polygamy - but they are small in number and basically excluded from mainstream society and their behaviour is not legally accepted in western culture.

It's a pity that Islam wasn't modernised a little more and harsher laws put in place to punish some Muslim males for their dominant and sometimes brutal acts.  No matter how much it is advised to only hit your wife gently - we know that many men will use  this "advice"  to beat or murder their wives and daughters.

Let's just hope we never submit to the pressure from Muslim communities to allow Sharia Law to be permitted in this country.  Although Islam may have some very good qualities - there are too many loopholes in its' translations which are continually exploited by fundamentalists.

mantra wrote on Nov 29^th, 2008 at 10:05pm:

Quote: Turning Sex into Sadaqah [an act of voluntary kindness pleasing to God] by Sr.Ruqaiyyah Waris Maqsood. (An excerpt from 'The Muslim Marriage Guide'). "Women shall have rights similar to the rights upon them; according to what is equitable and just; and men have a degree of advantage over them." (Quran, 2:216) The extract from the above author sounds very nice, polite, sensitive and pleasant Gaybriel - but very naive unless you were dealing with a couple of 10 year olds.  I doubt it would be much different to a Christian Marriage Guide at first glance.

I didn't say it was any different. It is just another writing by a muslim about marriage and sex- which was of discussion here.


Quote:

But in the back of your mind you know that under Sharia Law, Muslim males are permitted more than one wife - and any excuse could be used to justify taking on a 2nd, third or fourth wife - particularly if  the first wife was considered frigid.

yes I am aware of this. and although there are strict rules about why you should take another wife and under what circumstances- I am aware that this does not often play out in reality


Quote:

It's a pity that Islam wasn't modernised a little more and harsher laws put in place to punish some Muslim males for their dominant and sometimes brutal acts.

in Islam itself brutal acts are punished. are you referring to specific countries with majority muslim population?


Quote:

No matter how much it is advised to only hit your wife gently - we know that many men will use  this "advice"  to beat or murder their wives and daughters.

yes like any set of laws and rules there is room for abuse of these rules and exploitation of them- particularly among the uneducated, ignorant and those who simply wish to follow their own desires above others' and above god's


Quote:

Let's just hope we never submit to the pressure from Muslim communities to allow Sharia Law to be permitted in this country.  Although Islam may have some very good qualities - there are too many loopholes in its' translations which are continually exploited by fundamentalists.

there are loopholes in all systems of law including our own. one could look at our legal system and say the punishment for rape, child molestation etc is a complete joke. nothing is perfect when subject to human interpretation- islam and shariah included

Aussie wrote on Nov 29^th, 2008 at 8:01pm:

Gaybriel, on my read, you are out of your depth and you are being fed with gibber.

well thankyou for your input

Quote:

as to the hitting- this is supposed to be the absolute last last last resort and I believe the description given is of a 'slight tap with a miswak'.

Gaybriel, it is disappointing that you see no problem at all with this statement. It is clear you have been hanging around with muslims for too long. Get a grip.

In regard to the Muslim Marriage Guide - I know it was just an ordinary guide to a successful physical relationship and even though it was a bit strange, it was passable.


Quote:

as to the hitting- this is supposed to be the absolute last last last resort and I believe the description given is of a 'slight tap with a miswak'. MISWAAK - twigs of certain trees that are used on a regular basis by Muslims for centuries (and all Prophets Peace upon Them) to maintain oral hygiene and gain the pleasure of Allah SWT.  It is a "natural toothbrush."  Not only does it provide spiritual benefits, but it is also beneficial to the everyday maintenance of one's mouth, gums, and teeth.

http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk114/Mantra_2008/miswak.jpg

The meaning of Miswaak omits to mention it can also be used as a weapon to punish the wife - as a last resort of course.

This is very wrong Gaybriel and I'm sure you know that.

This is why there are so many clashes between Muslims & non-Muslims.  Muslims choose to live in western cultures, yet believe that Sharia Law and teachings of the Koran should also be part of that culture's law as well - even though the majority have chosen the laws on how their country needs to be run.


Quote:

there are loopholes in all systems of law including our own. one could look at our legal system and say the punishment for rape, child molestation etc is a complete joke. nothing is perfect when subject to human interpretation- islam and shariah included

Yes there are loopholes in our laws as well, although child molestation and rape are illegal in this country and the perpetrator often gets off lightly because of some technicality or another, but the majority of citizens don't accept physical abuse as punishment to females, nor polygamy, nor the stoning to death of those who have disobeyed our moral laws.  It sounds as though this is all that protects Australian Muslim women from beatings or murder from their spouses and male relatives.

While Muslims remain a minority - they will have to accept the laws of our country.  If the authorities on Islam truly believe Sharia Law is superior - the only option is to reside in an Islamic country.

There will probably come a day, maybe not in my lifetime, but in the lifetime of my children when Islam becomes the dominant religious force in Australia.  When that time comes - hopefully through our democratic process - Islamic law will have been modified and refined to eliminate many of the outdated and unacceptable practises still currently used.

Well if muslims ever become the dominant religion in my country it would be a sad day for Australia, I think many moderate ozzies would become extremists, I for one would never tollerate muslim laws running this country.

Quote:

Well if muslims ever become the dominant religion in my country it would be a sad day for Australia, I think many moderate ozzies would become extremists, I for one would never tollerate muslim laws running this country.

There are more Muslims than Catholics now Skippy and we know that Islam is the fastest growing religion on the planet.  Take into consideration their larger than average families - and it won't be long before they will outnumber Christians, atheists etc. Once that happens they will have a greater influence with governments than any other group.

mantra wrote on Nov 30^th, 2008 at 12:08pm:

Quote: Well if muslims ever become the dominant religion in my country it would be a sad day for Australia, I think many moderate ozzies would become extremists, I for one would never tollerate muslim laws running this country. There are more Muslims than Catholics now Skippy and we know that Islam is the fastest growing religion on the planet.  Take into consideration their larger than average families - and it won't be long before they will outnumber Christians, atheists etc. Once that happens they will have a greater influence with governments than any other group.

If thats the case be afraid be very afraid, are you for real are there more muslims than catholics in the country now?
Any religion running a country is bad muslims running a country is suicide, how do you turn a thriving economy into a struggling economy? put muslim extremists in charge.

Quote:

If thats the case be afraid be very afraid, are you for real are there more muslims than catholics in the country now?

Sorry Skippy I meant there are more Muslims worldwide than Catholics now.  There must be close to half a million Muslims in Australia although there are 4 million Catholics, but many of those now feel no obligation to their religion - they were just christened Catholic.

Catholics used to have large families - that's not the case now - but we could look ahead 50 years and see the balance the other way around - Muslims being the majority.  It isn't hard when you see such large families - then they have large families.  One Muslim couple over 3 generations can produce hundreds, maybe more than a thousand children.

One child can produce 100 grandchildren, give or take a couple, 10 children can produce another 100 children, - so how many great grandchildren would be produced?  The maths is too overwhelming......

mantra wrote on Nov 30^th, 2008 at 12:51pm:

Quote: If thats the case be afraid be very afraid, are you for real are there more muslims than catholics in the country now? Sorry Skippy I meant there are more Muslims worldwide than Catholics now.  There must be close to half a million Muslims in Australia although there are 4 million Catholics, but many of those now feel no obligation to their religion - they were just christened Catholic. Catholics used to have large families - that's not the case now - but we could look ahead 50 years and see the balance the other way around - Muslims being the majority.  It isn't hard when you see such large families - then they have large families.  One Muslim couple over 3 generations can produce hundreds, maybe more than a thousand children. One child can produce 100 grandchildren, give or take a couple, 10 children can produce another 100 children, - so how many great grandchildren would be produced?  The maths is too overwhelming......

Oh thanks, I was a bit worried there for a while, but I see what you mean, religion and politics should never be controlled by the same people and Australia should never bow to any religions particularly a religion that is so violent, wont intergrate and has such a dreadfull record regarding human rights.

jordan484 wrote on Nov 30^th, 2008 at 12:14am:

Quote: as to the hitting- this is supposed to be the absolute last last last resort and I believe the description given is of a 'slight tap with a miswak'. Gaybriel, it is disappointing that you see no problem at all with this statement. It is clear you have been hanging around with muslims for too long. Get a grip.

I never said I didnt have a problem with it. in fact I do have a problem with it. but I wasn't asked whether I have a problem with it, I was asked what the 'hitting' was specifically- and I answered

Lol
More Muslim pedantry...  you'll fit in just great.

Quote:

I never said I didnt have a problem with it. in fact I do have a problem with it. but I wasn't asked whether I have a problem with it, I was asked what the 'hitting' was specifically- and I answered

Gaybriel - you are doing a good job on your own without Abu's back up. I'm glad you don't approve of a woman being hit under any circumstances.  It couldn't be easy answering all these questions and copping these insults and I mean that seriously, but there was a question I asked earlier that was overlooked.

Are muslim women allowed to hit their husbands (only as a last resort) when they are disobedient?

mantra wrote on Dec 1^st, 2008 at 10:33am:

Quote: I never said I didnt have a problem with it. in fact I do have a problem with it. but I wasn't asked whether I have a problem with it, I was asked what the 'hitting' was specifically- and I answered Gaybriel - you are doing a good job on your own without Abu's back up. I'm glad you don't approve of a woman being hit under any circumstances.  It couldn't be easy answering all these questions and copping these insults and I mean that seriously, but there was a question I asked earlier that was overlooked. Are muslim women allowed to hit their husbands (only as a last resort) when they are disobedient?

sorry I think I did answer it but I'll do it again just in case I didn't make it clear.

yes muslim women are allowed to hit their husbands. however- I do not know how widespread this opinion is, as I've only heard it from limited sources. as you probably know there is a lot of debate in islam over most issues- so there will be some people who say no, some who say yes.

I'll see if women hitting their husbands has a quranic or hadith reference for you (watch this space :P)

and yes- just to make it clear, I do not approve of hitting a woman under any circumstances. even if it is just a 'tap' as a 'last resort' - that is not designed to hurt but designed to be a symbolic action of 'you've crossed the line'- I find it extremely condescending in that capacity as well. if someone is so unreasonable that they won't respond to words then I doubt a tap on the shoulder is going to do much.

Quote:

I'll see if women hitting their husbands has a quranic or hadith reference for you (watch this space )

Maybe you did mention it and I missed it.  It would be interesting to know why this practise is condoned at all, but even a small tap can get out of control.

You can imagine both husband and wife having an argument and he taps her - she taps him back harder - then he reciprocates, but harder.   It could get out of control very easily, but I'll wait for confirmation from you Gaybriel.

Thanks for your response.  

Quote:

yes muslim women are allowed to hit their husbands. however- I do not know how widespread this opinion is, as I've only heard it from limited sources. as you probably know there is a lot of debate in islam over most issues- so there will be some people who say no, some who say yes.

It might happen the other way around as a matter of practice, but only men beating women is given divine sanction in Islam.

Koran, 4.34


Quote:

Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great.

Not much room in that phrase for beating by women. Mohammed also struck Aisha at least once that is referred to, Koran 33.21 - for going out of the house without permission.

Certainly also, the imams in Arabic speak of being able to beat your wife, but also maintain, that you shouldnt overdo it. So no broken bones and no hitting in the face.  Lots of good youtube vids to this effect.

What does 'guarding the unseen' refer to?

freediver wrote on Dec 4^th, 2008 at 10:42pm:

What does 'guarding the unseen' refer to?

That means covering up and protecting the naughty bits.

re quran 4.34

http://www.brandeis.edu/projects/fse/Pages/additionaltranslations.html

http://www.brandeis.edu/projects/fse/Pages/adifficultverse.html

http://www.crescentlife.com/thisthat/feminist%20muslims/a_commentary_on_the_quran_4_34.htm

"Beat them". If even separation fails to work, then it is suggested that men use beating. To this suggestion of the Holy Qur'an there have been two extreme reactions on the part of some Muslims. The first reaction is being apologetic or ashamed of the suggestion. The second is to use it as a justification for indulging in habitual wife battering. Needless to say that both these reactions are wrong. The Quran as we believe is the word of God and is thus every word in it is full of wisdom and love. To be apologetic about any part of the Quran is to lack both knowledge and faith. As for the second response, the suggestion to use beating is made specifically to deal with nushuz on the part of the wife, that is, to deal with her deliberately nasty behaviour that poses a threat to the marriage. Beating is to be done after due admonition and separation in beds and therefore by husbands who have some moral standards and have sufficient control over their sexual passions. Moreover, this beating is not to go on and on but is to be tried as a last step to save the marriage. Once it is clear that it is not working it is to be abandoned in favour of some other steps involving relatives of the husband and the wife mentioned in the next verse (4:35). There is therefore, absolutely no license here for the type of regular and continual wife beating that goes on in some homes, where each time the husband is angry with his wife or with someone else he turns against her and beats her up. In most such cases, the husband has no moral superiority over the wife: the only rule of Shariah that he cares about is this suggestion about beating. He also does not have the kind of control over his sexual passions needed to separate the wife in bed and often beats her the day before or the day after making love to her, an action specifically condemned by the Prophet. (4)

In regard to the suggestion about beating, the following further points should also be noted:

a) According to some traditions the Prophet said in his famous and well-attended speech on the occasion of his farewell pilgrimage that the beating done according to the present verse should be ghayr mubarrih, i.e. in such a way that it should not cause injury, bruise or serious hurt. On this basis some scholars like Tabari and Razi say even that it should be largely symbolic and should be administered "with a folded scarf" or "with a miswak or some such thing". However, to be effective in its purpose of shaking the wife out of her nasty mood it is important that it should provide an energetic demonstration of the anger, frustration and love of the husband. In other words, it should neither seriously hurt the wife nor reduce it to a set of meaningless motions devoid of emotions.

b) The wife has no religious obligation to take the beating. She can ask for and get divorce any time. The suggestion applies only in the case when the husband is seriously disturbed by a prolonged nasty behaviour on the part of the wife but neither he nor the wife is as yet seriously thinking of breaking up.

c) If the husband beats a wife without respecting the limits set down by the Quran and Hadith, then she can take him to court and if ruled in favor has the right to apply the law of retaliation and beat the husband as he beat her.

d) Some fuqaha (Muslim jurists) are of the opinion that beating is permissible but not advisable. They base their view on the fact that the Prophet intensely disliked the action. But to say that beating is only permissible but never advisable is to say that there is never any good in it but the husband can nevertheless resort to it if he wants to; in other words he can beat up his wife without any good reason. This, however, is a view that cannot possibly be attributed to the Book of God. We can expect the Holy Qur'an to mention beating only if there was some wisdom in that mention. Now there are two possible points of wisdom in the mention. First, the beating done within the limits defined by the Qur'an may indeed bring the husband and wife to some kind of understanding. This is not because of the pain involved, which in any case cannot be too much if the guidance in the Quran and Hadith are to be observed. Rather, the husband and wife may come closer together after beating because of the emotions involved. The wife may experience the depth of hurt and disturbance her nushuz is causing and if there is any love left among them may decide for that reason to change her conduct. It seems from observations of human behaviour know that a show of male physical energy can sometimes bring a woman out of a prolonged bad mood (5) even though this energy may be seemingly directed against her in the form of angry words or a slap, provided in this manifestation of energy there is an undercurrent of love and desire for the woman and no real harm is done to the woman. In the situation with which the present verse is dealing, it is understood that in his heart the husband does have some love and desire for the wife. For, he has the option of divorcing her but he is not taking that option.

[cont...]

Of course, there are husbands who neither love their wives nor divorce them, but keep them to punish them or exploit them. But we are not dealing with this situation here, since the assumption is that ill-will (nushuz) is from the wife's side. As for the argument that the Prophet intensely disliked beating, we can say that his intense dislike was for the type of beating done outside the limits set down by God. Second, the mention of beating may have the wisdom, ironically, to protect wives against what is called wife battering. The Quran does not always combat undesirable behavior by legal prohibition but by some other means. Experience also shows that legal prohibition of an action may not always be the most effective method to stop it. The Quran by requiring that before any beating there should be admonishing and separation of beds is providing a more effective measure against wife battering, since battering is the result of uncontrollable anger or aggression and this anger or aggression can be tamed during admonishing and separation of beds. No statistics exist, but I feel confident that if we research the behavior of men in different religious groups over a long enough period and a vast enough area of the globe, we will find that the incidents of cases of wife battering and other forms of cruelty to women have been less, both in terms of numbers and seriousness, among Muslims than in other groups. "

Calanen- can you provide the quote from 33.21?

Quote:

The wife has no religious obligation to take the beating. She can ask for and get divorce any time.

What are rules of islamic divorce? Do women and men get equal parts when they split under islamic law?

Quote:

No statistics exist, but I feel confident that if we research the behavior of men in different religious groups over a long enough period and a vast enough area of the globe, we will find that the incidents of cases of wife battering and other forms of cruelty to women have been less, both in terms of numbers and seriousness, among Muslims than in other groups.

Which religious groups drug raped young girls to stadium and throw rocks at them in modern times?

tallowood wrote on Dec 5^th, 2008 at 12:38am:

Quote: The wife has no religious obligation to take the beating. She can ask for and get divorce any time. What are rules of islamic divorce? Do women and men get equal parts when they split under islamic law?

good question I have no idea! will see what I can find out

tallowood wrote on Dec 5^th, 2008 at 12:43am:

Quote: No statistics exist, but I feel confident that if we research the behavior of men in different religious groups over a long enough period and a vast enough area of the globe, we will find that the incidents of cases of wife battering and other forms of cruelty to women have been less, both in terms of numbers and seriousness, among Muslims than in other groups. Which religious groups drug raped young girls to stadium and throw rocks at them in modern times?

I must say I disagree with his last statement also. a bit head in the sand if you ask me

Right to Inheritance

Another right of the Muslim woman which is a part of Islamic law is the right to inherit property. The method of division of inheritance is clearly laid down in the Qur'an and the general rule is that man gets double. This may if taken in isolation from other legislation appear to be unfair; however, it must be remembered that in accordance with the verse of the Qur'an quoted earlier, men are charged with the maintenance of all the women and children in their family, and therefore their necessary obligations of expenditure are far higher than those of women. The half-share that a woman inherits may therefore be considered a generous one since it is for herself alone. Any such money or property which a woman owns or any business which she runs is entirely her own and her husband has no right to any of it.

One of the consequences of the divorce is the commencement of waiting period for the wife. This usually lasts three months. If there is a pregnancy, it lasts as long as pregnancy lasts. The waiting period is basically a term of probation during which reconciliation can be attempted. It is also required to establish whether the wife has conceived. It also allows time for planning the future.

Maintenance of wife during the waiting period is on husband. The wife can not be expelled from her place of residence and he can not in any way harass her. These will constitute moral as well as criminal offence.

In case of divorce, the young children remain in the custody of their divorced mother. However, the father has to provide the cost of maintenance of young children though they remain under the custody of mother. (Ref : The Family Structure in Islam by Dr. Hammudah Abdul Ati).

http://www.jamaat.org/islam/divorce.html

(d) Financial Independence

According to Muslim Family Law, the responsibility for the wife's maintenance (nafqa) always remains with the husband. The wife has no corresponding obligation to support her husband. The Muslim law principle which has been jealously guarded and enforced by Muslim law courts is that a woman's property is hers alone. Period. Consequently, any property which a Muslim wife contributes towards the 'family's assets' (i.e. all the property accumulated during the marriage) remains hers alone and is not subject to division or sharing by the husband in the event of a marriage breakdown (unless otherwise agreed upon between the husband and wife). In other words, under the Muslim Law, her 'Net Family Property,' remains hers alone and with no corresponding obligation to share with her husband (unless both husband and wife have agreed to share). This is not the case in Ontario law. So to ensure that a woman's Islamic rights are protected in Canada, particularly with respect to the matrimonial home provision of the Ontario Law, it is suggested that both the husband and wife consult a specialist (i.e. lawyer who specializes in Ontario Family Law if they happen to live in Ontario) so as to explore with this lawyer the legal possibilities of accommodating the couple's wishes, as much as possible, by finding ways and means to legally circumvent the (Ontario) law with regards to the obligatory special equal sharing of the matrimonial home provision.(7)

http://www.islamfortoday.com/prenuptial.htm

Quote:

"Beat them". If even separation fails to work, then it is suggested that men use beating. To this suggestion of the Holy Qur'an there have been two extreme reactions on the part of some Muslims. The first reaction is being apologetic or ashamed of the suggestion. The second is to use it as a justification for indulging in habitual wife battering. Needless to say that both these reactions are wrong. The Quran as we believe is the word of God and is thus every word in it is full of wisdom and love. To be apologetic about any part of the Quran is to lack both knowledge and faith. As for the second response, the suggestion to use beating is made specifically to deal with nushuz on the part of the wife, that is, to deal with her deliberately nasty behaviour that poses a threat to the marriage. Beating is to be done after due admonition and separation in beds and therefore by husbands who have some moral standards and have sufficient control over their sexual passions. Moreover, this beating is not to go on and on but is to be tried as a last step to save the marriage.

This is incredible - so it's wrong not to want to beat your wife.

First you're allowed to tap your wife - now some other interpretation says you can beat her.

Who determines whether her "nasty" behaviour justifies a beating - the angry husband?  Then if all else fails - go to your relatives for their advice.  No second guesses as to who they would support.

It's easy to say women can apply for a divorce, but after a person has been beaten for a period of time, they begin to believe they deserve it, especially if the Quran endorses it.

Obviously this would go on in Australia and you have to wonder if the women who are abused report it to the police.  Probably not - even though it is breaking Australia law.  


Quote:

The method of division of inheritance is clearly laid down in the Qur'an and the general rule is that man gets double. This may if taken in isolation from other legislation appear to be unfair; however, it must be remembered that in accordance with the verse of the Qur'an quoted earlier, men are charged with the maintenance of all the women and children in their family, and therefore their necessary obligations of expenditure are far higher than those of women.

So the men are all so decent that when they receive double the amount women receive in a marriage settlement - the difference goes towards the ongoing support of the ex wife and children.

Pull the other one.

I've made so many excuses for Muslims in the past - but this is abhorrent.  Seriously there has to be something wrong with Muslim women who live in Western countries in the 21st century and put up with all of the above.  Are they so submissive and weak that they will accept the teachings of someone from the 7th century?

Why hasn't the Quran been updated and modernised?  Why don't Muslim women question the inequality of this doctrine?  Surely in modern times they must look at their non-Muslim counterparts and wonder why they are so downtrodden in comparison.

Gaybriel wrote on Dec 5^th, 2008 at 12:30am:

Calanen- can you provide the quote from 33.21?

Sorry, was way too late in the evening and I didnt make a lot of sense.

What I was attempting to say was that 33.21 (I think going from memory here) says that Mohammed's prophet is to be emulated in all things, got the quote now:


Quote:

Ye have indeed in the Messenger of Allah a beautiful pattern (of conduct) for any one whose hope is in Allah and the Final Day, and who engages much in the Praise of Allah.

And that we know from the hadith that Aisha was struck by Mohammed for leaving the house without permission. Given Mohammed is to be emulated, reasonable to assume all muslims can hit their wives for leaving the house without permission.

I will have to do a search for the Aisha hadith, but will show it when I find it again.

Quote:

I've made so many excuses for Muslims in the past - but this is abhorrent.  Seriously there has to be something wrong with Muslim women who live in Western countries in the 21st century and put up with all of the above.  Are they so submissive and weak that they will accept the teachings of someone from the 7th century?

You ask women who are captives to violence and the risk of death to be brave - when our newspapers are too afraid to publish a Mohammed cartoon because of what might happen?

mantra wrote on Dec 5^th, 2008 at 6:26am:

Quote: "Beat them". If even separation fails to work, then it is suggested that men use beating. To this suggestion of the Holy Qur'an there have been two extreme reactions on the part of some Muslims. The first reaction is being apologetic or ashamed of the suggestion. The second is to use it as a justification for indulging in habitual wife battering. Needless to say that both these reactions are wrong. The Quran as we believe is the word of God and is thus every word in it is full of wisdom and love. To be apologetic about any part of the Quran is to lack both knowledge and faith. As for the second response, the suggestion to use beating is made specifically to deal with nushuz on the part of the wife, that is, to deal with her deliberately nasty behaviour that poses a threat to the marriage. Beating is to be done after due admonition and separation in beds and therefore by husbands who have some moral standards and have sufficient control over their sexual passions. Moreover, this beating is not to go on and on but is to be tried as a last step to save the marriage. This is incredible - so it's wrong not to want to beat your wife. First you're allowed to tap your wife - now some other interpretation says you can beat her.

no- this interpretation says 'beat' as in tap with a scarf or miswak. that is what is meant by beat. the terminology is offputting- but that is the definition of beat.

I think this is a massive problem- when I hear beat I think of someone actually beating someone else up, fists, feet etc etc- but here it is not used in that way


Quote:

Who determines whether her "nasty" behaviour justifies a beating - the angry husband?  Then if all else fails - go to your relatives for their advice.  No second guesses as to who they would support. It's easy to say women can apply for a divorce, but after a person has been beaten for a period of time, they begin to believe they deserve it, especially if the Quran endorses it.

it doesn't


Quote:

So the men are all so decent that when they receive double the amount women receive in a marriage settlement - the difference goes towards the ongoing support of the ex wife and children. Pull the other one.

we are talking theoretically about things that are supposed to be enforced by law, much the same as australian divorce law. the problem we have is that shariah is not practised correctly anywhere as I understand it.

not to mention any assets the woman has she keeps solely to herself, and she also receives a bulk payout from the husband.


Quote:

I've made so many excuses for Muslims in the past - but this is abhorrent.  Seriously there has to be something wrong with Muslim women who live in Western countries in the 21st century and put up with all of the above.  Are they so submissive and weak that they will accept the teachings of someone from the 7th century?

the muslim women I know are not submissive and weak- it all depends on how your interpret these things and how you apply them in your life.

It is inevitable that some people would use that verse in the Koran to justify full-on wife-beating. The Koran must be judged by it's inevitable consequences, not just the intended ones. After all, it is a law and a system of government, not a personal moral code. If it allows a pedophile to marry a 6 year old girl, drag her off into the hills to live with her, but 'expects' him not to have sex with her until she is ready, then the law facilitates pedophilia. Just like it facilitates wife beaters. No one would tolerate a law that encourages that, but because it has a religious angle people think it should be judged by the technicalities, not by the reality.


Quote:

the problem we have is that shariah is not practised correctly anywhere as I understand it.

That's because the 'correct' practice is just as abhorent.

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You ask women who are captives to violence and the risk of death to be brave - when our newspapers are too afraid to publish a Mohammed cartoon because of what might happen?

Good point Calanen.  I assumed there were no reported cases of violence because the media would be on to it straight away,  but forgot they were so cautious about offending Muslims.

And Gaybriel - you said the women you know are not submissive and weak - that's good news, because it means that your generation of Muslim women will not accept the treatment that was meted out to their mothers and hopefully they will bring their daughters up to be even stronger.

I takes a few generations and a supportive culture to beat the assertiveness out of women.

tallowood wrote on Dec 5^th, 2008 at 12:38am:

Quote: The wife has no religious obligation to take the beating. She can ask for and get divorce any time. What are rules of islamic divorce? Do women and men get equal parts when they split under islamic law?

If you are a man - easy.

If you are a woman - nobody wants to know you. Have a look.

http://www.aussiemuslims.com/forums/showpost.php?p=293635&postcount=1

There is a lot of shuffling of feet and glancing away.

One sure way out for a woman is to get caught cheating. Then all her suffering will be over, though it can be a painful and drawn out process.

Nostalgic -isms, like islamism, fascism, communism, want to re-primitivise the world.


They are against everything that is not backward or backward-looking. That's why each of the above finds both America andd the jews foremost among their enemies.

America and the jews are the bulwarks against the re-primitivisation of the world in all the guises of  tribal, arian, class grievance mongering.