Could you please lebaorate on this for us Abu:


abu_rashid wrote on Nov 2^nd, 2008 at 12:07pm:

As I've expressed before, we don't believe in the infatuation concept of love that is prevalent in the West. We believe love is something that grows with a relationship. So them being paired up now, or when they're 13 or when they're 18 is irrelevant Islamically. I have heard it mentioned though that when they reach puberty, before actually pursuing the married life, they are permitted Islamically to annul the contract, because they weren't adults when it was made for them. I have not verified this though.

Quote:

In Islam we have quite a different perception of love than most non-Muslims do. To you it is usually a temporary overwhelming infatuation that disables reason and logic. For us, it is a strong and spiritual bond that grows over time and is based around our belief in God, and in Islam.

Does this justify, even in modern times, the marriage of an old man to a prepubescent girl, or one who has just hit puberty, on the grounds that she will grow to love him?

so islam controls people how they are to love each other ?

love at first sight is not allowed under islam?

Also, is this a cultural thing, or is it doctrinal? Is there something in the Koran that criticises the notion of two people falling in love and being mature enough to make their own decision about who to spend the rest of their life with?

Is this also a reason for making women wear tents? If marriages are arranged and not based on love, it would be inevitable for people to fall back to going for the best looking girl. If you rule that out as well, what do they fall back on? Wealth? Lottery? Prestige? Eugenics?

Wow, it just gets worse, and worse doesn't it.
No wonder Islam chooses to promote isolationist enclaves, and shroud their beliefs and behaviours in secrecy.

Islam does not believe in love, well paint me pink and call me molly, what the heck is that about.

This is possibly the "offest" thing I have heard yet.

It believes in love. Women grow to love the men who were chosen for them. Maybe it's like a coping mechanism.

Are there any Muslim wives who don't grow to love their husbands? Can the jibbed husbands get a refund?

Sprintcyclist wrote on Nov 2^nd, 2008 at 2:53pm:

so islam controls people how they are to love each other ? love at first sight is not allowed under islam?

Hardly restricted to Islam, but.

Hindus do the same, usually after consulting the astrological chart that is written for them when they are born.

Ever read Holy Cow by Sarah Macdonald? About her time in India.

Particularly poignant is the story of the young Indian woman who married outside her caste to an Indian doctor living in Thailand. Her mother committed suicide to restore the family honour. The young woman was considered dead and not permitted to attend the funeral.

Orthodox Jews practice it too, I believe.

I wonder how a Catholic would have been treated in Northern Ireland during the troubles if he/she married a Protestant?

I wonder how a Catholic would have been treated in Northern Ireland during the troubles if he/she married a Protestant?

They would have kicked her out of the IRA.

Quote:

They would have kicked her out of the IRA.

;D

Who said mods can't have a sense of humour?

freediver wrote on Nov 2^nd, 2008 at 4:03pm:

I wonder how a Catholic would have been treated in Northern Ireland during the troubles if he/she married a Protestant? They would have kicked her out of the IRA.

They might have beaten her to a pulp.

helian,


Quote:

Hardly restricted to Islam, but.

No, it's Islam only. Only Islam has these kinds of things, all other religions are moderate and peace-loving and don't have any negative aspects according to freediver and his groupies. It's only Islam that has this kind of stuff that freediver detests. Both he and sprintcyclist have already made posts that clearly state this fact, that Islam is completely different from all other religions.

Abu - I have often stated openly where I feel christians have it "wrong".

yes, I feel islam is entirely different from other beliefs.
Want me to list why ?

Quote:

No, it's Islam only. Only Islam has these kinds of things, all other religions are moderate and peace-loving and don't have any negative aspects according to freediver and his groupies

Strawman. All we want is a straight answer Abu. I am asking questions, that's all. I am happy to let Islam be judged by it's answers. You, apparently, are not.

Are there any other views on human relationships or emotions that are different from western views? For example, is fun or friendship viewed differently? Are Muslims allowed to have fun? Can they be friends with whoever they want?

bump

Came up here: http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1231993677/44#44

freediver wrote on Nov 2^nd, 2008 at 4:03pm:

I wonder how a Catholic would have been treated in Northern Ireland during the troubles if he/she married a Protestant? They would have kicked her out of the IRA.

It wasnt that bad. But it would have been difficult to live in some places, and both sides would think of you as a possible spy. If you lived right downtown in Belfast worked in a big offices or something,  it would be ok. The problem is that in Northern Ireland, everyone knows everyone, your relatives know the other sides relatives, and so on and so forth. So its not just about you and your relationship, but goes much deeper.

You would be better getting married and moving to England. All families would be better able to cope. I am talking about during the Troubles. Now it honestly wouldn't matter (since the good friday accords)

Yeah I'd forgotten how 'inbred' some of those European towns and villages are.

gees you guys really like to take something and stretch it to breaking point don't you

I don't see anything wrong with abu's description of love. having a deep and spiritual connection sounds more lasting to me than whirlwind romance.

having said that- I don't think that the two are necessarily mutually exclusive, you can have romance and giddyness and all that stuff and still have a deep and lasting connection

We weren't criticising Abu's description for what it included, but for what it excluded, and for what it facilitates.

freediver wrote on Jan 28^th, 2009 at 5:28pm:

We weren't criticising Abu's description for what it included, but for what it excluded, and for what it facilitates.

what do you feel it excludes?

I don't see how it facilitates child marriage- if you think a child can develo a deep and spiritual connection easier than it can become infatuated with someone then you're kidding yourself

Quote:

We weren't criticising Abu's description for what it included, but for what it excluded

Please do excuse me freediver. I was giving you a description within my capacity only. It is by no means exhaustive, and I do apologise to you for any shortcomings in my description.

I wasn't aware that when I describe something, I was obligated to include every single detail... You're really not an easy man to please are you fd? Perhaps I'll refrain from going into any detail in future, so as not to give the impression that what I've stated is all-encompassing.

Quote:

what do you feel it excludes?

For starters, it excludes the idea that you fall in love before getting married?


Quote:

I don't see how it facilitates child marriage-

It facilitates child marriage by permitting child marriage. That's how.


Quote:

if you think a child can develo a deep and spiritual connection easier than it can become infatuated with someone then you're kidding yourself

Not sure where you got the rest of that from. I don't think a young girl can do that. That's the whole point. They should be protected, not married off to some old man in the hope that she will grow to love him through domestic and sexual servitude.

freediver wrote on Nov 7^th, 2008 at 11:55am:

Are there any other views on human relationships or emotions that are different from western views? For example, is fun or friendship viewed differently? Are Muslims allowed to have fun? Can they be friends with whoever they want?

"Allah did not create man so that he could have fun. The aim of creation was for mankind to be put to the test through hardship and prayer. An Islamic regime must be serious in every field. There are no jokes in Islam. There is no humor in Islam. There is no fun in Islam. There can be no fun and joy in whatever is serious." -- The Ayatollah Khomeini

How accurate is Khomeini's representation of Islam's approach to fun?

good vs bad

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1231925038

Dancing, partying 'banned' in holy city of Karbala

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1225017788

Two very different views on love and marriage within Islam. If you follow the link to Gandalf's post, you can see him go on to discover, apparently for the first time, that Muhammed had sex with his slaves, as well as the dozen or so wives he collected along the way (often after chopping their husband's head off).


True Colours wrote on Sep 13^th, 2013 at 10:57am:

In Islam, a marriage does not necessarily mean that the husband and wife will live together immediately as in Western culture. In Islam, a marriage is understood to be a contract between a man and a woman. While a marriage could hypothetically take place at any age, the couple living together as man and wife would occur when both were biologically adults.

True Colours wrote on Sep 3^rd, 2013 at 12:34pm:

freediver wrote on Sep 3rd, 2013 at 12:19pm: According to Falah Islam rejects modern concepts of love, in particular people falling in love prior to getting married, and supports arranged marriage. Islam teaches that a marriage should be arranged according to a person's inner qualities. The superficial qualities such as outer beauty are considered to be of secondary importance. Today in the West, it seems to be the other way round with outer beauty being the primary consideration. Most people in the English-speaking world today seem to confuse the word 'love' with 'lust'. Their idea of love is often confused with sexual attraction. In the West, we have ridiculous ideas like 'love at first sight'. True love comes from knowing a person's good character. Liking a person's physical appearance is just an attraction of the person's baser animal instincts.

polite_gandalf wrote on Sep 3^rd, 2013 at 8:35am:

freediver wrote on Sep 2nd, 2013 at 9:47pm: Do you expect people to believe that Arabs have considered spousal rape and the rape of slaves to be the same as rape in other contexts since before Muhammed's time? Probably not. Hence the whole (new) concept of marriage being about mutual support and love introduced by Muhammad and the quran.

polite_gandalf wrote on Sep 3^rd, 2013 at 1:11pm:

freediver wrote on Sep 3rd, 2013 at 12:19pm: So the concept of love in marriage did not even exist before Muhammed? And husbands and wives did not support each other? What about all the "slaves that you can have sex with"? I don't know anything about pre-islamic arabia. Common sense though dictates that love and mutual affection between a man and a woman is a pretty universal innate characteristic of humans - irrespective of what religion they hold. It was however fairly standard fair (and again I don't know the specifics of pre-islamic arabian culture) for pre-modern societies to institute laws and social norms that culturalised oppression of women, and reduce them to mere objects to be bartered by their fathers and uncles, and then objects of possession for their (chosen) husband. This effectively barred women from finding their own mate and marrying who they choose based on mutual love. We know this was very common throughout history, across cultures. Islam undeniably acknowledged this culture and sought to change it - introducing the then radical notion that marriage should a) be based on mutual love and agreement between the husband and wife and b) provide a relationship that gives equal rights and responsibilities on both the husband and wife. However much you and moses attempt to smear islam, it doesn't change the fact that these new notions about marriage (I gave a sample in my last post) were a significant change in culture (in a general sense - again not being an expert on the specifics of arabian culture), and they were introduced by islam. Quote: According to Falah Islam rejects modern concepts of love, in particular people falling in love prior to getting married, and supports arranged marriage. Sounds like a typical stick-in-the-mud with no imagination. Fact: the quran intends marriage for people who are already in love and decide themselves they want to live in marriage. How is that possible if you can only marry someone you don't know, and chosen by your parents? It is completely contradictory. Of course we reject living together and sharing a bed before marriage - which is probably what he was referring to with "modern concepts of love".

I don't think Gandalf managed to dig up a single example of Muhammed using the word love in the context of sex or marriage, or attempting to change the Arabic culture of treating women as property. It must be another example of Islam's "phased" approach to cultural change.

polite_gandalf wrote on Sep 17^th, 2013 at 8:18pm:

freediver wrote on Sep 17th, 2013 at 6:38pm: How long after chopping a man's head off should a Muslim wait to take his wife as a sex slave or wife (totally her choice of course), so as not to paint Islam in a negative light? Alls fair in love and war. Its nothing personal, all players undrestood that. Women were exchanged back and forth between opposing sides all the time. What I'm interested in though is what you mean by the use of the term "so shortly after" - since I'm 99% certain you have no idea what the time period was between capture and marriage.

So what is the appropriate length of time Gandalf?