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Message started by RecFisher on Feb 12th, 2008 at 4:58pm

Title: Rudd Apology Revealed
Post by RecFisher on Feb 12th, 2008 at 4:58pm
Sounds ok to me:

"Today we honour the Indigenous peoples of this land, the oldest continuing cultures in human history.

"We reflect on their past mistreatment.

"We reflect in particular on the mistreatment of those who were stolen generations - this blemished chapter in our nation's history.

"The time has now come for the nation to turn a new page in Australia's history by righting the wrongs of the past and so moving forward with confidence to the future.

"We apologise for the laws and policies of successive Parliaments and governments that have inflicted profound grief, suffering and loss on these our fellow Australians.

"We apologise especially for the removal of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander children from their families, their communities and their country.

"For the pain, suffering and hurt of these stolen generations, their descendants and for their families left behind, we say sorry.

"To the mothers and the fathers, the brothers and the sisters, for the breaking up of families and communities, we say sorry.

"And for the indignity and degradation thus inflicted on a proud people and a proud culture, we say sorry.

"We the Parliament of Australia respectfully request that this apology be received in the spirit in which it is offered as part of the healing of the nation.

"For the future we take heart; resolving that this new page in the history of our great continent can now be written.

"We today take this first step by acknowledging the past and laying claim to a future that embraces all Australians.

"A future where this Parliament resolves that the injustices of the past must never, never happen again.

"A future where we harness the determination of all Australians, Indigenous and non-Indigenous, to close the gap that lies between us in life expectancy, educational achievement and economic opportunity.

"A future where we embrace the possibility of new solutions to enduring problems where old approaches have failed. peA future based on mutual respect, mutual resolve and mutual responsibility.

"A future where all Australians, whatever their origins, are truly equal partners, with equal opportunities and with an equal stake in shaping the next chapter in the history of this great country, Australia"

Title: Re: Rudd Apology Revealed
Post by freediver on Feb 12th, 2008 at 5:06pm
Thanks RecFisher.

Sounds good to me too. I especially like the bit about 'old approaches failing'. It sounds like recognition that past Labor policies on 'sit down money' etc didn't work. He could have used this apology to further wind up the coalition, but he did the honourable thing with it.

Title: Re: Rudd Apology Revealed
Post by deepthought on Feb 12th, 2008 at 5:35pm
Yep, it is an admission of liability - it will be followed by billions in compensation, a strong sense of victimhood, a whole lot of 'gimme gimme gimme' and a further division between cultures which John Howard has gone a long way towards repairing.

Further it will never be enough so he will have to say it again and again in a hundred different ways.

But as he was apologising why didn't he mention the terrible wrongs inflicted by Gough Whitlam, Malcolm Fraser and Bob Hawke?

Title: Re: Rudd Apology Revealed
Post by mantra on Feb 12th, 2008 at 6:19pm

Quote:
But as he was apologising why didn't he mention the terrible wrongs inflicted by Gough Whitlam, Malcolm Fraser and Bob Hawke


Rudd has included it in this line:


Quote:
We apologise for the laws and policies of successive Parliaments and governments that have inflicted profound grief, suffering and loss on these our fellow Australians


There won't be compensation - everyone knows it.  Obviously there will be investment in education, health and creating jobs - that's all Rudd has promised.

There was an aboriginal man on the radio today and even he said compensation wasn't the answer as it would only be spent on drugs and alcohol - which is a possibility for some of those with addictions.

There are only a couple of the activists and some cynics who keep talking about compensation.



Title: Re: Rudd Apology Revealed
Post by Oceans on Feb 12th, 2008 at 6:25pm
Its well written and if compensation follows- so be it. Get it over with and move forward.

Title: Re: Rudd Apology Revealed
Post by deepthought on Feb 12th, 2008 at 7:04pm

mantra wrote on Feb 12th, 2008 at 6:19pm:

Quote:
But as he was apologising why didn't he mention the terrible wrongs inflicted by Gough Whitlam, Malcolm Fraser and Bob Hawke


Rudd has included it in this line:

[quote]We apologise for the laws and policies of successive Parliaments and governments that have inflicted profound grief, suffering and loss on these our fellow Australians


There won't be compensation - everyone knows it.  Obviously there will be investment in education, health and creating jobs - that's all Rudd has promised.

There was an aboriginal man on the radio today and even he said compensation wasn't the answer as it would only be spent on drugs and alcohol - which is a possibility for some of those with addictions.

There are only a couple of the activists and some cynics who keep talking about compensation.


[/quote]

Activists like this historian?


Quote:
Compensation must follow apology: historian

THE historian who coined the term "stolen generations" has told Prime Minister Kevin Rudd that next Wednesday's apology must be followed with monetary compensation for the misery inflicted on victims.

Concerned at reports the apology might be limited to the term "stolen generation", Professor Peter Read has also pleaded with the Prime Minister to ensure the apology is addressed to the numerous generations affected.

"If it's in the singular, it's appalling," Professor Read told The Age. He estimated 50,000 indigenous children over seven or eight generations were systematically removed from their families.

When historians turn into activists


Cynics like this pollie?


Quote:
Money should follow sorry - Greens

GREENS leader Bob Brown has said the Federal Government's apology to the indigenous stolen generations must be accompanied by financial compensation.

Cynics abound in the Greens


Or cynics like this lawyer?


Quote:
Apology hollow without follow-up

I am heartened to hear that he is finally going to take a step forward and make the long overdue apology to the Stolen Generations. I am, however, extremely disappointed that his Government has ruled out compensation.

Where's the cash Kevvy?


Or activist like this associate prof?


Quote:
Saying sorry is not enough without rectifying the wrongs

Real forgiveness, as the medieval philosopher Maimonides taught, must be based on truth; there is no use saying sorry if we don't pledge to change the social and political conditions that allow our confessions to have authenticity. There can be no reconciliation without compensation. An apology from the Australian government to indigenous Australians is a pre-requisite for a just future for our country. It will be good for the victims, the perpetrators and for us, the beneficiaries of past deeds.

Bloody activists


Methinks you have both hands over your ears again - the calls are almost a solid roar and compo claims will follow no matter how much legal advice Little Kevvy thinks he has.  It's a blow for Aboriginal relations.


Title: Re: Rudd Apology Revealed
Post by deepthought on Feb 12th, 2008 at 11:16pm
Here's another cynic calling for compo




Quote:
Calls for tax cuts to go to stolen generation


Prominent Aboriginal leader Noel Pearson is calling for part of the $31 billion in promised tax cuts to be spent on compensation for the stolen generation.

Prime Minister Rudd will open tomorrow's parliament with the apology but has ruled out offering any money to those taken from their homes.  

Mr Pearson argues there's a legal precedent for compensation and the Federal Government should pay up.

Meanwhile, public schools have been ordered to fly the Aboriginal flag and stop classes tomorrow as Prime Minister Kevin Rudd apologises to the stolen generation.

The New South Wales Education Department has also instructed schools to watch a broadcast of the 'Welcome to Country' ceremony at the opening of Federal Parliament this morning.

There's a legal precedent for compo hey?  I guess that is the fact of accepting liability by apologising


See, once you say it's your fault and you intend on "righting the wrongs of the past" you are committing to make it better - how can you do that?  I only know of one way.  Compensation.

But what's this "public schools have been ordered to fly the Aboriginal flag and stop classes tomorrow as Prime Minister Kevin Rudd apologises"?  Do schools stop when Australia's version of North Korea's 'Dear Leader' stutters out lamentations?  Does Australia's flag get torn down when Dear Leader Little Kevvy 'orders' it?  Do school children begin their mind control with a "broadcast of the 'Welcome to Country' ceremony at the opening of Federal Parliament"?

What has happened Australia?  Have we aligned ourselves with the communist paradise North Korea?  Will we soon have speakers in our homes to broadcast the soul wrenching sounds of Little Kevvy sobbing out apologies to everyone for a rough time in the past?  How about the transportees Kevvy?  How about saying sorry for that travesty?

Title: Re: Rudd Apology Revealed
Post by Oceans on Feb 13th, 2008 at 9:06am
DT says


Quote:
See, once you say it's your fault and you intend on "righting the wrongs of the past" you are committing to make it better - how can you do that?  I only know of one way.  Compensation.


Well DT you need to develop an imagination then.

And could you tell me [so Ive got it completely clear in my mind] what is so bad about "COMPENSATION"??? a really bad thing appraently. [dare to have more imagination than to cite your hard earned taxes puhleasse.!!!] Our taxes are spent on many trivial usless things i would have thought. Id much rather give Ind pple compensation than contribute to the Tsunami fund for Indonesia for example or East Timor etc.


The "Sorry " speech was well executed I thought.

Great that he touched upon the fact that the Government was trying to breed out Ind pple [characteristics]- a topic not generally dared to be spoken out loud.



Title: Re: Rudd Apology Revealed
Post by freediver on Feb 13th, 2008 at 10:15am
I put the transcript up here:

http://www.ozpolitic.com/articles/sorry.html

Does anyone know where I can get a copy of the full speech from this morning, or when it will be available? I will update the link with it when I get a chance.



This issue of 'closing the gap' is troubling me. It's fair enough for aborigines that have joined mainstream society. However a lot of aboriginal people in remote communities live there out of rejection of mainstream society. At the very least, it would be more reasonable to compare their living standards with those of immigrants who live similar lifestyles. The only way to clsoe the gap completely would be to get all aboriginal people to adopt our lifestyle. It is more important to give them the choice. While in the past that choice was denied, these days they are given ample opportunity.

The city of Darwin for example is heavily subsidised. Otherwise you couldn't get so many white people to live up there. There are plenty of native people up there living a fairly comfortable lifestyle. My economics lecturer had a friend who wanted to help out one particular group, so he bought them a tinnie and some fishing gear and pots so they could catch stingrays etc, use them as bait and sell the crabs in Darwin. A year or so later he came back and they hadn't done any of this. They were eating stingrays etc and whatever they could catch easily. When he thought about it it made sense. They were only working a few hours a day at most, living on a tropical island. To try to sell crabs would have been a near full time job in conditions that are not exactly conducive to hard labour. Obviously such a lifestyle will also have some disadvantages, but that doesn't mean the choice is not valid.

Title: Re: Rudd Apology Revealed
Post by deepthought on Feb 13th, 2008 at 4:46pm

wrote on Feb 13th, 2008 at 9:06am:
DT says


Quote:
See, once you say it's your fault and you intend on "righting the wrongs of the past" you are committing to make it better - how can you do that?  I only know of one way.  Compensation.


Well DT you need to develop an imagination then.


I'm very unimaginative - could you enlighten me please?

Title: Flood of sorry compo claims 'unlikely'
Post by freediver on Feb 13th, 2008 at 6:52pm
http://news.smh.com.au/flood-of-sorry-compo-claims-unlikely/20080213-1s0j.html

Compensation claims are not likely to flood in after the commonwealth apology to the stolen generations, NSW lawyers say.

There has been speculation that the federal apology will pave the way for many new compensation claims.

But Law Society of NSW President Hugh Macken said the right of Indigenous Australians and all Australians to bring compensation claims was the same as it had always been.

"There has been a lot of conjecture and some misinformation in respect to the legal ramifications on this apology," he told reporters.

"Let me simply state very emphatically, this apology will not lead to the floodgates opening or a rash of compensation claims.

"The legal landscape is no different to what it was yesterday or will be tomorrow."

Mr Macken said there had been less than a handful of claims brought since the states apologised more than a decade ago.

He said two states, Tasmania and Victoria, had set up compensation funds, but any federal fund was a matter for the commonwealth.

Title: Re: Rudd Apology Revealed
Post by midnightcowboy on Feb 13th, 2008 at 7:10pm
I am totally against this apology. How does saying sorry by someone who did nothing make up for anything that someone else done?

Also, I agree with what Nelson said, something along the lines of it can be argued that what happened wasn't so bad as they were being removed from squalor, just the same as what happens today with white and black kids who are neglected.

Title: Re: Flood of sorry compo claims 'unlikely'
Post by deepthought on Feb 13th, 2008 at 7:17pm

freediver wrote on Feb 13th, 2008 at 6:52pm:
http://news.smh.com.au/flood-of-sorry-compo-claims-unlikely/20080213-1s0j.html

Compensation claims are not likely to flood in after the commonwealth apology to the stolen generations, NSW lawyers say.

There has been speculation that the federal apology will pave the way for many new compensation claims.

But Law Society of NSW President Hugh Macken said the right of Indigenous Australians and all Australians to bring compensation claims was the same as it had always been.

"There has been a lot of conjecture and some misinformation in respect to the legal ramifications on this apology," he told reporters.

"Let me simply state very emphatically, this apology will not lead to the floodgates opening or a rash of compensation claims.

"The legal landscape is no different to what it was yesterday or will be tomorrow."

Mr Macken said there had been less than a handful of claims brought since the states apologised more than a decade ago.

He said two states, Tasmania and Victoria, had set up compensation funds, but any federal fund was a matter for the commonwealth.




Ha ha ha ha ha ha.   What Hugh is really saying is call us up for the name of a good class action lawyer.  Ha ha ha ha ha, don't you love lawyer speak.

Title: Re: Rudd Apology Revealed
Post by deepthought on Feb 13th, 2008 at 7:20pm

easel wrote on Feb 13th, 2008 at 7:10pm:
I am totally against this apology. How does saying sorry by someone who did nothing make up for anything that someone else done?

Also, I agree with what Nelson said, something along the lines of it can be argued that what happened wasn't so bad as they were being removed from squalor, just the same as what happens today with white and black kids who are neglected.


Perhaps if you and I get together midnight we can apologise for the nuclear testing, the slaughter of sheep on the Upyabum Station and the drinking of metho by some very strange looking people under the Storey Bridge.

Title: Re: Rudd Apology Revealed
Post by mantra on Feb 13th, 2008 at 8:49pm

Quote:
However a lot of aboriginal people in remote communities live there out of rejection of mainstream society. At the very least, it would be more reasonable to compare their living standards with those of immigrants who live similar lifestyles. The only way to clsoe the gap completely would be to get all aboriginal people to adopt our lifestyle. It is more important to give them the choice. While in the past that choice was denied, these days they are given ample opportunity


Good point Freediver.  

In regard to compensation - Australian indigenous people have always been ripped off by their leaders, and ours too, when it comes to compensation, land leases etc.   There would be no point in direct compensation - it would be far better to invest it in teachers, schools and health services.  Rudd's idea of all aboriginal children having to attend pre-school for early education is excellent.  They will also be taught hygiene and health care.  If this can be put into practise and the mortality rate for children under 5 is halved - this is a far better gift than huge sums of money which may be great for the short term - but won't benefit them in the long term.

Title: Re: Rudd Apology Revealed
Post by Oceans on Feb 13th, 2008 at 8:58pm
And could you tell me [so Ive got it completely clear in my mind] what is so bad about "COMPENSATION"??? a really bad thing appraently. [dare to have more imagination than to cite your hard earned taxes puhleasse.!!!] Our taxes are spent on many trivial usless things i would have thought. Id much rather give Ind pple compensation than contribute to the Tsunami fund for Indonesia for example or East Timor etc.


The "Sorry " speech was well executed I thought.

Great that he touched upon the fact that the Government was trying to breed out Ind pple [characteristics]- a topic not generally dared to be spoken out loud. "
------------------


Oh DT- you forgot to address this bit of my post, esp the highlighted bit. ;)

Title: Re: Rudd Apology Revealed
Post by IQSRLOW on Feb 13th, 2008 at 9:15pm
Yes DT- please waste your time and insight on this little piece of inanity thought up by a little piece of inanity.

I'd like the govt to say sorry to me for giving you access to the intardnet- then they can compensate me for subjecting my brain cells to your drivel...after all there's nothing wrong with compensation is there??

You are truly a product of the sad and sorry state of welfare in this country- quick, everyone put your hand out- it works!!!

Disgusting  >:(

Title: Re: Rudd Apology Revealed
Post by deepthought on Feb 13th, 2008 at 9:22pm

wrote on Feb 13th, 2008 at 8:58pm:
And could you tell me [so Ive got it completely clear in my mind] what is so bad about "COMPENSATION"??? a really bad thing appraently. [dare to have more imagination than to cite your hard earned taxes puhleasse.!!!] Our taxes are spent on many trivial usless things i would have thought. Id much rather give Ind pple compensation than contribute to the Tsunami fund for Indonesia for example or East Timor etc.


The "Sorry " speech was well executed I thought.

Great that he touched upon the fact that the Government was trying to breed out Ind pple [characteristics]- a topic not generally dared to be spoken out loud. "
------------------


Oh DT- you forgot to address this bit of my post, esp the highlighted bit. ;)


I didn't forget to address it - I deliberately didn't because you said I was unimaginative and I was waiting for you to explain how Dear Leader Comrade Kevvy Il-Rudd will "right the wrongs of the past" without some financial compensation.  How will he do that oceans?  Please explain to an unimaginative one.

And if you want to know what happens when you compensate people for being victims you only need look to the communities now.  Since Whitlam kicked the missions off the properties and created bodies like the DAA (followed by Hawke's disastrous ATSIC) the communities have decayed into what we see today.  Throwing money at a disenfranchised people has not worked to date.  Why do you think more money will?  So far a billion dollars a year has seen no benefits.  What will change if it is Kevvy's pocket money?

Title: Re: Rudd Apology Revealed
Post by freediver on Feb 13th, 2008 at 9:27pm
I agree mantra - investment rather than compensation would probably have more benefit. However it is kind of disappointing to see people so worried about the cost of compensation. We have benefitted a great deal from slavery, stolen wages etc. We are flush with money. This attitude is nothing short of mean spirited. Justice is expensive, but it is fundamental to our society. We cannot deny someone justice out of convenience or tightfistedness without undermining our own society, which will cost us far more in the long run. We should let the courts decide who deserves compensation, not the politicians or an ignorant public.

Title: Re: Rudd Apology Revealed
Post by deepthought on Feb 13th, 2008 at 9:35pm

freediver wrote on Feb 13th, 2008 at 9:27pm:
I agree mantra - investment rather than compensation would probably have more benefit. However it is kind of disappointing to see people so worried about the cost of compensation. We have benefitted a great deal from slavery, stolen wages etc. We are flush with money. This attitude is nothing short of mean spirited. Justice is expensive, but it is fundamental to our society. We cannot deny someone justice out of convenience or tightfistedness without undermining our own society, which will cost us far more in the long run. We should let the courts decide who deserves compensation, not the politicians or an ignorant public.


Actually you will find it is those concerned about compensation (such as me) who are opposed to continuing the treatment - Comrade Kevvy Il-Rudd's gesture today has set Aboriginal relations back 20 years to the time of the disaster of Whitlam - compensation will endorse the divisiveness created by Gough and fostered by Hawke.

I oppose the destruction that has been wrought on the communities by feel good attitudes such as this which have no backbone or belief behind them - they sit back in the Lodge, stare at the silent dishwasher and say they have done good stuff.   While another child is raped and they don't believe it can happen because they gave them all a million bucks.

It is your belief that money fixes stuff that ensures stuff remains broken.   Why don't you care for Aboriginal folk?  Your statement indicates it is more about motherhood statements, warmth and fuzziness and a settling back with a latte and a self satisfied smugness that everything has been put right in the world.

It is nothing about the awful reality which John Howard has done a great deal to address with the mutual obligation agreements which ensure children go to school and basic hygiene is observed.

Title: Re: Rudd Apology Revealed
Post by Oceans on Feb 14th, 2008 at 9:22am

Quote:
I oppose the destruction that has been wrought on the communities by feel good attitudes such as this which have no backbone or belief behind them - they sit back in the Lodge, stare at the silent dishwasher and say they have done good stuff.   While another child is raped and they don't believe it can happen because they gave them all a million bucks.



Statements like this are complete and utter rubbish and you know it.Rudd never spoke of compensation and it woud be up to the individual states to oversee that process anyway.

He also said that 'sorry ' was worth nothing if not backed up by action- you heard him as well as anyone- so stop your cr ap.
"
How could you have the gall to trivialise what Rudd has done yesterday as "nothing"[something that made so many pple happy- ]- what have YOU done DT-except sit back and whine endlesslessy about everything since the change of Government!!!!?

Two terms at least of this Government so get used to it.

BTW harking back to the Whitlam yrs and ATSIC etc shows how regressive your thinking is..what would you know about Ind problems in communities DT- your on a comp 24/7, with your groupie IQ su cking on your numerous extremities.


I notice your hero Brendan Nelson received a warm welcome by the Ind pple yesterday and once again got a resounding GONG!!!!






Title: Re: Rudd Apology Revealed
Post by Oceans on Feb 14th, 2008 at 9:24am

IQSRLOW wrote on Feb 13th, 2008 at 9:15pm:
Yes DT- please waste your time and insight on this little piece of inanity thought up by a little piece of inanity.

I'd like the govt to say sorry to me for giving you access to the intardnet- then they can compensate me for subjecting my brain cells to your drivel...after all there's nothing wrong with compensation is there??

You are truly a product of the sad and sorry state of welfare in this country- quick, everyone put your hand out- it works!!!

Disgusting  >:(


Do the world a favour and get a job mel.

Title: Re: Rudd Apology Revealed
Post by mantra on Feb 14th, 2008 at 10:27am

Quote:
investment rather than compensation would probably have more benefit. However it is kind of disappointing to see people so worried about the cost of compensation. We have benefitted a great deal from slavery, stolen wages etc. We are flush with money. This attitude is nothing short of mean spirited. Justice is expensive, but it is fundamental to our society. We cannot deny someone justice out of convenience or tightfistedness without undermining our own society, which will cost us far more in the long run. We should let the courts decide who deserves compensation, not the politicians or an ignorant public.


I don't know if we are that flush freediver.  At this stage the government should use any surplus to invest in infrastructure and services for everyone - aborigines being equal.

At the moment there is a global downturn, which is being underplayed, and although Australians have superannuation, there is a lot of debt in this country.  I don't think Australia can afford compensation at the moment and now that we've said sorry - we have got to insist that the aboriginal people try to be inclusive and work towards a "whole of Australia" outcome, rather than sit back and make personal demands.


Title: Re: Rudd Apology Revealed
Post by Ray_A on Feb 14th, 2008 at 1:51pm

deepthought wrote on Feb 13th, 2008 at 9:35pm:
Actually you will find it is those concerned about compensation (such as me) who are opposed to continuing the treatment - Comrade Kevvy Il-Rudd's gesture today has set Aboriginal relations back 20 years to the time of the disaster of Whitlam - compensation will endorse the divisiveness created by Gough and fostered by Hawke.

I oppose the destruction that has been wrought on the communities by feel good attitudes such as this which have no backbone or belief behind them - they sit back in the Lodge, stare at the silent dishwasher and say they have done good stuff.   While another child is raped and they don't believe it can happen because they gave them all a million bucks.

It is your belief that money fixes stuff that ensures stuff remains broken.   Why don't you care for Aboriginal folk?  Your statement indicates it is more about motherhood statements, warmth and fuzziness and a settling back with a latte and a self satisfied smugness that everything has been put right in the world.

It is nothing about the awful reality which John Howard has done a great deal to address with the mutual obligation agreements which ensure children go to school and basic hygiene is observed.


I have to agree with deepthought here. I'm not cynical towards the apology myself, but I think it will in fact create more division (especially judging by all the comments I've read on the Net). I hark back light-heartedly to an old film, "Love means never having to say you're sorry". Well early governments stuffed up, for sure, and I think some directly affected do deserve compensation, but I think most Australians are more concerned about current conditions, and what Aboriginal people are presently doing on their part to improve their living conditions. Throwing too much money at people, any people, is a recipe for their own self-destruction. No one appreciates fully what they don't work for, and we've seen this time and again. And what are Aborigines themselves doing about rapes and child abuse in their own communities. Discrimination is another matter. Maybe saying "sorry" might break down some discrimination barriers? Discrimination in employment can be a problem, and the remaining stigma attached to "Abos" is not a good one.

I think what many Australians object to is the fact that we all do it tough, and we all presently suffer from contemporary injustices (think of the Family Court for example) of some kind. Have the "stolen children" from England been told "sorry", many of them physically and sexually abused under government policy. I realise this is different than an invasion of one's land, and no one can compare this to Aboriginal massacres.  My question on a practical level is: Will saying sorry, generally, improve current problems?  So I too often wonder if this is just a way of feeling good, maudlin sentimentality. Will it really change anything on a significant level?  I can't say the apology stirred any real emotion in me, because I look at the practical side of things. The local paper asked "do you remember where you were and what you were doing when you heard the apology" (JFK assassination kind of thing). Well, for starters, we all knew it was coming, but this is the sort of maudlin sentemintality I'm speaking of. It may make us feel good, but actions always speak louder than words. If someone broke into my house and stole everything, I'd rather he return it than say sorry. Maybe both would be appropriate, but I'd rather real restoration than "sorry" anyday.

Title: Re: Rudd Apology Revealed
Post by freediver on Feb 14th, 2008 at 2:04pm
Have the "stolen children" from England been told "sorry", many of them physically and sexually abused under government policy.

When was this? The stolen generations continued into the 70's. There are still politicians in the house who were in power at the time. This is not just a matter of history.

Title: Re: Rudd Apology Revealed
Post by freediver on Feb 14th, 2008 at 2:29pm
The full transcript of both speeches:

http://www.ozpolitic.com/articles/sorry.html

Title: Re: Rudd Apology Revealed
Post by Oceans on Feb 14th, 2008 at 2:30pm

freediver wrote on Feb 13th, 2008 at 9:27pm:
I agree mantra - investment rather than compensation would probably have more benefit. However it is kind of disappointing to see people so worried about the cost of compensation. We have benefitted a great deal from slavery, stolen wages etc. We are flush with money. This attitude is nothing short of mean spirited. Justice is expensive, but it is fundamental to our society. We cannot deny someone justice out of convenience or tightfistedness without undermining our own society, which will cost us far more in the long run. We should let the courts decide who deserves compensation, not the politicians or an ignorant public.


Very well said- sure cant argue with that.

Title: Re: Rudd Apology Revealed
Post by freediver on Feb 14th, 2008 at 3:21pm
from crikey:

Dave Liberts writes: Re. "Faris: Aboriginals must be compensated. Here's how" (yesterday, item 13). I'm no lawyer and Peter Faris is a QC, so obviously I could be wrong about this, but I really think he's flying a kite with his knock-up Statement of Claim. Although Faris does refer to the recent South Australian case of Bruce Trevorrow in suggesting that $500,000 is the likely value of compensation, he's conveniently ignored every other detail of the Trevorrow case. For example, Faris regards the apology as an admission of liability, yet the South Australian government's 1997 apology never came into the arguments put by Trevorrow's lawyers in that case. If apology was crucial to liability, one would have expected it to pop up. The United Nations charters or ramblings about duties and rights don't cop a mention in the judgement either. The key to any class action will not only be to prove that quantifiable harm was done, but to prove that the removal was unlawful at that time. Trevorrow managed to do this in respect of his case, but many others will struggle. Faris has also completely failed to explain why the Commonwealth of Australia should be a defendant when it was the states who administered the removal of these children (under state laws), and the Trevorrow case and the Tasmanian compensation arrangements further confirm that this is a problem for the States, not the Commonwealth.

Steve Martin writes: I don't really understand what David Flint is on about. Is he suggesting that justice can't be served because it may cost money? Surely not! Irrespective of what David Flint and Keith Windschuttle may think about opening the flood gates to compensation claims, there appears to be no evidence that this could happen without the consent of the courts due to the statute of limitations. Even if a claimant were to get permission to mount a claim, proving detriment would be near impossible, see for example the Lorna Cubillo attempt to get compensation. The only real hope for any of the "Stolen generations" would be through ex gratia payments, and at the moment the Federal Government has ruled this out.

Marilyn Shepherd writes: Re. "Sorry: Australia talks back" (yesterday, item 10). Reading the listener reaction to the apology to the stolen generations I have to wonder two things. Did they listen to the apology and why did they bother with such ugly closed minds. They make me sick to my stomach and should go back to the lands of their ancestors. To qualify that I will state that my own family led the massacre of a tribe of Aborigines as late as 1910 so they could steal the land and the ranters who are given a voice here should be sickened by their heartless cruelty. I have no idea why they seem to think that Aborigines are "given millions" when that is not the truth. Aborigines are supplied about 10% of the health care of other Australians and an Afghan child of recent refugees has a greater chance of surviving past 65 than an Aboriginal child born in their own country.

Tom Moloney writes: The House passed the motion and the Prime Minister and the Leader of the Opposition walked to the Distinguished Visitors' Gallery. Do I imagine that I saw the Prime Minister walk half a pace towards the Opposition side of the table on his return? Also. Mr Keating was not up to speed for the first minute or so of his appearance on ABC. I think the man had been weeping. Quite right too.

Title: Re: Rudd Apology Revealed
Post by deepthought on Feb 14th, 2008 at 4:52pm

freediver wrote on Feb 14th, 2008 at 3:21pm:
from crikey:

Dave Liberts writes: Re. "Faris: Aboriginals must be compensated. Here's how" (yesterday, item 13). I'm no lawyer and Peter Faris is a QC, so obviously I could be wrong about this, but I really think he's flying a kite with his knock-up Statement of Claim. Although Faris does refer to the recent South Australian case of Bruce Trevorrow in suggesting that $500,000 is the likely value of compensation, he's conveniently ignored every other detail of the Trevorrow case. For example, Faris regards the apology as an admission of liability, yet the South Australian government's 1997 apology never came into the arguments put by Trevorrow's lawyers in that case. If apology was crucial to liability, one would have expected it to pop up. The United Nations charters or ramblings about duties and rights don't cop a mention in the judgement either. The key to any class action will not only be to prove that quantifiable harm was done, but to prove that the removal was unlawful at that time. Trevorrow managed to do this in respect of his case, but many others will struggle. Faris has also completely failed to explain why the Commonwealth of Australia should be a defendant when it was the states who administered the removal of these children (under state laws), and the Trevorrow case and the Tasmanian compensation arrangements further confirm that this is a problem for the States, not the Commonwealth.

Steve Martin writes: I don't really understand what David Flint is on about. Is he suggesting that justice can't be served because it may cost money? Surely not! Irrespective of what David Flint and Keith Windschuttle may think about opening the flood gates to compensation claims, there appears to be no evidence that this could happen without the consent of the courts due to the statute of limitations. Even if a claimant were to get permission to mount a claim, proving detriment would be near impossible, see for example the Lorna Cubillo attempt to get compensation. The only real hope for any of the "Stolen generations" would be through ex gratia payments, and at the moment the Federal Government has ruled this out.

Marilyn Shepherd writes: Re. "Sorry: Australia talks back" (yesterday, item 10). Reading the listener reaction to the apology to the stolen generations I have to wonder two things. Did they listen to the apology and why did they bother with such ugly closed minds. They make me sick to my stomach and should go back to the lands of their ancestors. To qualify that I will state that my own family led the massacre of a tribe of Aborigines as late as 1910 so they could steal the land and the ranters who are given a voice here should be sickened by their heartless cruelty. I have no idea why they seem to think that Aborigines are "given millions" when that is not the truth. Aborigines are supplied about 10% of the health care of other Australians and an Afghan child of recent refugees has a greater chance of surviving past 65 than an Aboriginal child born in their own country.

Tom Moloney writes: The House passed the motion and the Prime Minister and the Leader of the Opposition walked to the Distinguished Visitors' Gallery. Do I imagine that I saw the Prime Minister walk half a pace towards the Opposition side of the table on his return? Also. Mr Keating was not up to speed for the first minute or so of his appearance on ABC. I think the man had been weeping. Quite right too.


Ha ha ha ha ha, crikey what a load of codswallop.  Does the fool who says this "there appears to be no evidence that this could happen without the consent of the courts due to the statute of limitations" realise how stupid he sounds?

Where do Crikey get their contributors from - The Sheltered Workshop?

Title: Re: Rudd Apology Revealed
Post by Ray_A on Feb 15th, 2008 at 5:06am
FD, I'll reply later, but I picked this up on the Net this morning (after nightshift, I'm on my way to bed):

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,23216951-2,00.html


Title: Re: Rudd Apology Revealed
Post by deepthought on Feb 15th, 2008 at 6:29am

Ray_A wrote on Feb 15th, 2008 at 5:06am:
FD, I'll reply later, but I picked this up on the Net this morning (after nightshift, I'm on my way to bed):

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,23216951-2,00.html


Yep, the flood has started as I said it would.




Quote:
Victoria's first stolen generation compensation bid


EXCLUSIVE: A VICTORIAN man is set to sue the State Government in a stolen generation claim that threatens to open the legal floodgates.

Just a day after the Rudd Government's cashless apology, the Herald Sun can reveal that Reservoir man Neville Austin, 44, will launch the first stolen generation claim against the State of Victoria.

The suit could trigger mass action by Aborigines around Australia and comes amid fresh calls for a state-based compensation fund.

Mr Austin says he was removed from his mother as a five-month-old after he was admitted to the Royal Children's Hospital with a chest infection.

It is believed his solicitors have briefed seasoned barrister Jack Rush, QC, who last year helped extract a $4 billion payout from James Hardie Industries for sufferers of asbestos-related disease.

Kristen Hilton, executive director of Public Interest Clearing House, which has been handling stolen generation claims, would not comment on Mr Austin's case but indicated litigation was under way.

"We see 'sorry', the gesture, as one part of the reparation process," she said.

"It acknowledges a wrong has been done and that wrong requires a remedy. We are investigating what remedy."




So where does it end Australia?


We have had people on here saying sorry does not constitute liability.  Perhaps an understanding of the law may help you.  Of course saying 'sorry' does.  

Though we Australians are not guilty of anything Kevvy has made us so.   Now we have become the oppressors and the child thieves and the Aboriginal people the dopey and helpless victims.   Does Little Dear Leader Kevvy know what he has done to our relations with our brother and sister Australians?

We have had people saying compensation claims will not follow an apology - I expect you will be regretful that you have little knowledge of the way the world works.

A cash based apology will suffice.  Please email me your bank details so I may empty it as this will empty Australia's.

Title: Re: Rudd Apology Revealed
Post by Squarehead(Guest) on Feb 15th, 2008 at 7:17am
Best way to handle this is to declare another public holiday and call it National Sorry Day and on that day every white person and every black person gets $100.00 each to spend on beer and meat pies. This will kill two birds with one stone by showing equal fairness to all Australians and fix inflation at the same time.

I'm a genius  8-)

Title: Nelson waiting for Rudd to apologise over speech s
Post by freediver on Feb 15th, 2008 at 11:01am
In a rather ironic twist, the leader of the coalition has complained that the Kruddmeister won't apologise for the actions of someone else, even though those others have already apologised to him.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/02/14/2162334.htm?section=justin

Nelson waiting for Rudd to apologise over speech snub

Brendan Nelson says Prime Minister Kevin Rudd has not apologised for the actions of Labor staffers who turned their backs on the Federal Opposition Leader as he delivered his response at yesterday's apology to the Stolen Generations.

Mr Rudd received a standing ovation after delivering his "sorry" speech, but many people turned their backs and jeered during Dr Nelson's speech, which referred to the sexual abuse of Indigenous Australians.

Two of Mr Rudd's press secretaries also joined the protest but have since apologised.



Woman angry Nelson misrepresented her

http://news.smh.com.au/woman-angry-nelson-misrepresented-her/20080215-1sgk.html

A member of the stolen generations has accused federal Opposition Leader Brendan Nelson of misrepresenting her in his response to the government's national apology.

Aborigine Faye Lyman told ABC Radio Dr Nelson never asked for her permission to use her name during a speech in response to Prime Minister Kevin Rudd's apology to the stolen generations.

Dr Nelson used Ms Lyman's quotes from the Many Voices oral history documents at the National Library of Australia to argue good was being attempted when Aborigines were removed from their families.

An angry and sobbing Ms Lyman told ABC Radio: "He took my story from Many Voices oral history out of context.

"My dad was not happy that I was taken. They cheated us, they cheated me of my life with him.

"I feel like I've been stolen all over again and I am so ashamed he's done this to me."

Dr Nelson rang Ms Lyman on Thursday night and promised to ring her again next week to find out if she was still angry and upset, she said.

"He said: `I just wanted people to know your story'," she said.

"I asked him why he didn't ring me, and he couldn't answer that.

When Dr Nelson spoke in federal parliament on Wednesday, he supported an apology but said the issue was complex and no one was morally superior because "good was being sought to be done".



PM explains how sorry speech came about

http://news.smh.com.au/pm-explains-how-sorry-speech-came-about/20080214-1sdm.html

Paul Keating had Don Watson, Bob Hawke and Gough Whitlam had Graham Freudenberg and Kevin Rudd has ... Kevin Rudd.

Labor leaders have had some legendary speech writers through the years but what could turn well turn out to be the landmark oration of Kevin Rudd's prime ministership was all his own work.

Mr Rudd has won wide acclaim for his stirring and passionate apology to the stolen generations this week, which brought many victims of the decades-long government policy to tears.

Title: Re: Nelson waiting for Rudd to apologise over spee
Post by Oceans on Feb 15th, 2008 at 12:09pm

freediver wrote on Feb 15th, 2008 at 11:01am:
In a rather ironic twist, the leader of the coalition has complained that the Kruddmeister won't apologise for the actions of someone else, even though those others have already apologised to him.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/02/14/2162334.htm?section=justin

Nelson waiting for Rudd to apologise over speech snub

Brendan Nelson says Prime Minister Kevin Rudd has not apologised for the actions of Labor staffers who turned their backs on the Federal Opposition Leader as he delivered his response at yesterday's apology to the Stolen Generations.

Mr Rudd received a standing ovation after delivering his "sorry" speech, but many people turned their backs and jeered during Dr Nelson's speech, which referred to the sexual abuse of Indigenous Australians.

Two of Mr Rudd's press secretaries also joined the protest but have since apologised.



Woman angry Nelson misrepresented her

http://news.smh.com.au/woman-angry-nelson-misrepresented-her/20080215-1sgk.html

A member of the stolen generations has accused federal Opposition Leader Brendan Nelson of misrepresenting her in his response to the government's national apology.

Aborigine Faye Lyman told ABC Radio Dr Nelson never asked for her permission to use her name during a speech in response to Prime Minister Kevin Rudd's apology to the stolen generations.

Dr Nelson used Ms Lyman's quotes from the Many Voices oral history documents at the National Library of Australia to argue good was being attempted when Aborigines were removed from their families.

An angry and sobbing Ms Lyman told ABC Radio: "He took my story from Many Voices oral history out of context.

"My dad was not happy that I was taken. They cheated us, they cheated me of my life with him.

"I feel like I've been stolen all over again and I am so ashamed he's done this to me."

Dr Nelson rang Ms Lyman on Thursday night and promised to ring her again next week to find out if she was still angry and upset, she said.

"He said: `I just wanted people to know your story'," she said.

"I asked him why he didn't ring me, and he couldn't answer that.

When Dr Nelson spoke in federal parliament on Wednesday, he supported an apology but said the issue was complex and no one was morally superior because "good was being sought to be done".



PM explains how sorry speech came about

http://news.smh.com.au/pm-explains-how-sorry-speech-came-about/20080214-1sdm.html

Paul Keating had Don Watson, Bob Hawke and Gough Whitlam had Graham Freudenberg and Kevin Rudd has ... Kevin Rudd.

Labor leaders have had some legendary speech writers through the years but what could turn well turn out to be the landmark oration of Kevin Rudd's prime ministership was all his own work.

Mr Rudd has won wide acclaim for his stirring and passionate apology to the stolen generations this week, which brought many victims of the decades-long government policy to tears.




Thats rightKevin  Rudds [not krudmeister- ] made them aploagise already for this- Nelson is just being precious now.- get over it Nelson.!!!


As for the woman who was upset by Nelson recounting her story without consulting her..he did the wrong thing. He did not consult her and he was deeply insensitive and arrogant with these actions.

I get the feeling though he was trying to be sincere and in the spirit of the occassion..he needs better advisors [even tho it is just commonsense really]

Title: Re: Rudd Apology Revealed
Post by mantra on Feb 15th, 2008 at 3:56pm
Poor old Nelson - he can't do anything right.  I thought the press secretaries had already been asked by Rudd to apologise to Nelson, but it seems Nelson wants a direct apology from Rudd.

This whole "sorry" saga has just become a joke.  Saying sorry seemed important prior to the election, but it's just turned into a circus - everyone hurting everyone else's feelings and now the claimants are coming out of the woodwork.

Nelson isn't that great, but he's OK.  The reaction by those who snubbed Nelson represents a mob mentality and even though I'm more sympathetic to the left than to the right side of politics, especially after the last few years with Howard,  the jeering was a negative for the ALP, even though Rudd wasn't directly responsible.

Anyway that's the way it goes.  Some of us voted Rudd in because we couldn't stand Howard - so Tuesday was really only the beginning for those groups of people who were silenced under the coalition and are now allowed to have a voice.






Title: Re: Rudd Apology Revealed
Post by deepthought on Feb 15th, 2008 at 4:46pm
The cynics and activists proved to be right too


Quote:
Indigenous Australians launch compensation bid

Up to 40 indigenous Australians are preparing compensation claims for being removed from their families as a result of now discredited policies issued by successive Australian governments.

The compensation claims come just days after Australia's prime minister said "sorry" to those people now known as the "stolen generation".

A lawyer has confirmed he's been asked to represent a Melbourne man in what could become the first case against the Victorian state government since the apology in Australia's national parliament.

The claim is yet to be lodged with the courts.

Lyn Austin, from Stolen Generations Victoria, says there are more cases being prepared.

"I cannot make any comment on that case at all but I do know that there are another 30 or 40 that are going to be doing a civil action claim," she said.

I thought no one would make any compensation claims?


So why are they making claims all you poo pooers?  I thought this wasn't supposed to happen?  Can you explain it?

Title: Re: Rudd Apology Revealed
Post by Oceans on Feb 15th, 2008 at 7:12pm

deepthought wrote on Feb 15th, 2008 at 4:46pm:
The cynics and activists proved to be right too


Quote:
Indigenous Australians launch compensation bid

Up to 40 indigenous Australians are preparing compensation claims for being removed from their families as a result of now discredited policies issued by successive Australian governments.

The compensation claims come just days after Australia's prime minister said "sorry" to those people now known as the "stolen generation".

A lawyer has confirmed he's been asked to represent a Melbourne man in what could become the first case against the Victorian state government since the apology in Australia's national parliament.

The claim is yet to be lodged with the courts.

Lyn Austin, from Stolen Generations Victoria, says there are more cases being prepared.

"I cannot make any comment on that case at all but I do know that there are another 30 or 40 that are going to be doing a civil action claim," she said.

I thought no one would make any compensation claims?


So why are they making claims all you poo pooers?  I thought this wasn't supposed to happen?  Can you explain it?


Why shouldnt they and who cares?

Title: Re: Rudd Apology Revealed
Post by mantra on Feb 15th, 2008 at 7:44pm

Quote:
Up to 40 indigenous Australians are preparing compensation claims for being removed from their families as a result of now discredited policies issued by successive Australian governments.

Why shouldnt they and who cares?


Because Oceans - this will open a can of worms.  The aboriginal people have been treated terribly, but they aren't alone.  There are immigrants who have been falsely imprisoned and abused, caucasians who have grown up in State orphanages where they have been tortured and dozens of other serious breaches of human rights that have occurred in Australia over the past 200 years.

If there are 40 claims in two days from Rudd's sorry - how many will there be in a year?  Any spare cash has to be used for services and infrastructure for the aborigines.  How will hundreds of thousands of dollars compensation benefit those living in outback communities?  Will it make them better parents?  No it won't, but a generous investment in essential health services, schools, policing and job training will benefit whole communities.

Title: Re: Rudd Apology Revealed
Post by deepthought on Feb 15th, 2008 at 8:36pm

wrote on Feb 15th, 2008 at 7:12pm:

deepthought wrote on Feb 15th, 2008 at 4:46pm:
The cynics and activists proved to be right too


Quote:
Indigenous Australians launch compensation bid

Up to 40 indigenous Australians are preparing compensation claims for being removed from their families as a result of now discredited policies issued by successive Australian governments.

The compensation claims come just days after Australia's prime minister said "sorry" to those people now known as the "stolen generation".

A lawyer has confirmed he's been asked to represent a Melbourne man in what could become the first case against the Victorian state government since the apology in Australia's national parliament.

The claim is yet to be lodged with the courts.

Lyn Austin, from Stolen Generations Victoria, says there are more cases being prepared.

"I cannot make any comment on that case at all but I do know that there are another 30 or 40 that are going to be doing a civil action claim," she said.

I thought no one would make any compensation claims?


So why are they making claims all you poo pooers?  I thought this wasn't supposed to happen?  Can you explain it?


Why shouldnt they and who cares?


I reckon the poo pooers care.   They reckoned it wouldn't happen and they probably feel embarrassed picking a loser.  Again.

But the important thing is that as buckets of money of passive welfare has created a hell on earth for Aboriginals mountains of it will mean a sure death for many.

The other aspect, not to be ignored, is that the taxpayer's pockets are only so deep.  If the alleged 100,000 people who were 'stolen' get together with their mothers fathers, uncles, aunties and anyone else involved and all put their hands out the country is rooted.  The pool of cash is only so big and the $50,000,000,000 for just the 100,000 directly involved is the health budget and education budget for the entire term of Liebor and then some.  There will be no money for hospitals, medicine or schools for the next few years.

But the havoc the extra money flooding into the communities will cause will mean there is no money left to assist with education, health or policing in the remote areas.  The mountain of cash will kill off what's left of the remote Aboriginal communities.  The situation to date is a direct result of this on a smaller scale.  Once you magnify it it is goodbye.

So what can Little Kevvy Dear Leader Who Hasn't A Phuquing Clue About The Consequences do about this?  He can either give them mountains of cash, or he can give the lawyers mountains of cash to fight them.  How will he look either way?  Like a phuqstick of course.

I voted Liberal.





Title: Re: Rudd Apology Revealed
Post by sprintcyclist on Feb 15th, 2008 at 8:48pm
deepy - a fair bit of truth to that.
Whatever happens, lawyers will win
whats the bet, it wont make any measurable difference to the abbos ?

Title: Re: Rudd Apology Revealed
Post by freediver on Feb 15th, 2008 at 8:48pm
Mantra surely if they deserve justice then they deserve justice, and it is up to the courts to judge. They are no more or less deserving now than before the apology. The same reasons for denying them compensation that would be applied to a white person will still be applied to an aborigine. The sheer magnitude of the injustice is not a reason against opening the can of worms - it is a reason for opening it. Justice must come first if our society is to continue to function.

Title: Re: Rudd Apology Revealed
Post by deepthought on Feb 15th, 2008 at 9:00pm

freediver wrote on Feb 15th, 2008 at 8:48pm:
Mantra surely if they deserve justice then they deserve justice, and it is up to the courts to judge. They are no more or less deserving now than before the apology. The same reasons for denying them compensation that would be applied to a white person will still be applied to an aborigine. The sheer magnitude of the injustice is not a reason against opening the can of worms - it is a reason for opening it. Justice must come first if our society is to continue to function.


Courts don't determine justice, courts determine points of law.

And the two are not necessarily equal.  The issue here is social justice which can not, nor should not, be determined by courts as a result of a fool taking responsibility for something society today is not guilty of.  If every historical wrong is to be righted then let's start with the transportees.  

What you, and bleeding hearts like you, fail to comprehend is that the events. regrettable and poorly handled as they may have been with glorious hindsight, occurred in a different time and place in a perfectly lawful fashion.  We can not be responsible in the future for situations which took place in the past.  Laws do not generally act retrospectively or every hangman would be dug up and put on trial, every teacher who caned a child prosecuted and every judge who sentenced a person to death shot within an inch of their lives.

The future is all that counts.   Litlle Kevvy's grubby fumbling about in the past is indicative of a backward looking Liebor Party adopting regressive laws, implementing archaic policies and apologising for what everyone's grandparents did.

We need a Liberal Party which was a long way down the road to improving this situation - Little Kevvy has taken us back decades without caring at all for the consequence of his grandstanding.

Title: Re: Rudd Apology Revealed
Post by Aussie on Feb 15th, 2008 at 11:05pm

Quote:
What you, and bleeding hearts like you, fail to comprehend is that the events. regrettable and poorly handled as they may have been with glorious hindsight, occurred in a different time and place in a perfectly lawful fashion.  We can not be responsible in the future for situations which took place in the past.  Laws do not generally act retrospectively or every hangman would be dug up and put on trial, every teacher who caned a child prosecuted and every judge who sentenced a person to death shot within an inch of their lives.


That.....especially the words, 'occurred.....in a perfectly lawful fashion,' will be the essence of judgement AGAINST each of these plaintiffs, written by the very DT who reckons he knows the Law.

Poor old DT is unable to understand the difference between an admission of liability, and an apology for something which, while lawful at the time, ought never, in contemporary hind sight, have occurred.

Teehee.

Title: Re: Rudd Apology Revealed
Post by deepthought on Feb 15th, 2008 at 11:12pm

Aussie wrote on Feb 15th, 2008 at 11:05pm:

Quote:
What you, and bleeding hearts like you, fail to comprehend is that the events. regrettable and poorly handled as they may have been with glorious hindsight, occurred in a different time and place in a perfectly lawful fashion.  We can not be responsible in the future for situations which took place in the past.  Laws do not generally act retrospectively or every hangman would be dug up and put on trial, every teacher who caned a child prosecuted and every judge who sentenced a person to death shot within an inch of their lives.


That.....especially the words, 'occurred.....in a perfectly lawful fashion,' will be the essence of judgement AGAINST each of these plaintiffs, written by the very DT who reckons he knows the Law.

Poor old DT is unable to understand the difference between an admission of liability, and an apology for something which, while lawful at the time, ought never, in contemporary hind sight, have occurred.

Teehee.


So your hero Little Kevvy Liar will be apologising  for transportation which, while lawful at the time, ought never, in contemporary hind sight, have occurred?

How about capital punishment?  That too?

Title: Re: Rudd Apology Revealed
Post by deepthought on Feb 15th, 2008 at 11:53pm
It seems too that some media commentators (those who think rather than just scrawl out Kevvy propaganda) agree with me that the worst thing to have done is create more divisiveness after John Howard has done so much to pull the disparate peoples together.

This is the picture with the headline . . . .




Quote:
Rudd fans the flames of the culture wars

. . . . .

There is a lot to be sorry about. I hope we are apologising for three decades of failed welfare policies, for the "sit-down" money and lack of meaningful work which has destroyed the self-worth of men in some Aboriginal communities.

I hope we are apologising for the fact that the lethal combination of passive welfare, alcohol and drugs have made some Aboriginal communities hell on earth for the children unlucky enough to be born into them.

I hope we are apologising for the utopian fancies of H.C. "Nugget" Coombs which led to the 1970s apartheid creation of 1200 remote tribal settlements where indigenous people now live in Third World conditions.


. . . . .


But as the Cape York Aboriginal leader Noel Pearson wrote this week: "People were stolen, people were rescued; people were brought in chains, people were brought by their parents; mixed-blood children were in danger from their tribal stepfathers, while others were loved and treated as their own; people were in danger from whites, and people were protected by whites." Yesterday morning a woman named Mary, one of 12 children, taken away the day after her mother tried to commit suicide, told ABC radio: "I'm personally glad I was taken because I don't know what would have happened. I was constantly being raped by my brother and he was raping my siblings."

But then she said: "I was raped in homes too, denied food, put in isolation … The best interests of the children would have been … to keep me and my siblings together." The internal contradictions of one person's life are repeated a thousand-fold in the stolen generations.

As Pearson also wrote, the demand for an apology for the stolen generations became, over the decade of Howard government, a "weapon" in the culture wars. Rudd's speech yesterday was embedded with the partisan sentiment that fuels culture wars.

There was the sly dig at John Howard in a "stony and stubborn and deafening silence for more than a decade". There was the homage to Gough Whitlam in his four repetitions of "It's time" and there were echoes of Paul Keating's Redfern speech.

The negative reaction to the nuanced and sensitive reply from the Opposition Leader, Brendan Nelson, tells you that, far from extinguishing the culture war, Rudd's apology has fanned its flames. Slow clapping and turned backs were the response in the Great Hall and elsewhere, and Rudd was forced to apologise for two of his staff who allegedly led the protests.

Who the phuq hates Australia so much that they voted for this bozo?


More of the rotten same hey Kevvy.  Back to the future and Gough's shocking policies which started this ghastly situation.  How dare you be so uncaring.

Title: Re: Rudd Apology Revealed
Post by mantra on Feb 16th, 2008 at 6:44am

Quote:
Mantra surely if they deserve justice then they deserve justice, and it is up to the courts to judge. They are no more or less deserving now than before the apology. The same reasons for denying them compensation that would be applied to a white person will still be applied to an aborigine. The sheer magnitude of the injustice is not a reason against opening the can of worms - it is a reason for opening it. Justice must come first if our society is to continue to function.


Of course I agree with you Freediver and Rudd should have apologised and he has made it quite clear that there wouldn't be compensation.  Compensation is difficult to get at the best of times - look at Bernie Bantram and his fight with James Hardy.  But we have also seen aboriginal leaders over the years rip off their people, particularly those who are ignorant of the law and managing money.  The government has to take a hard stance on this.  Even now in Qld there's an organisation (forgotten the name) who has spent years investing lease money in various businesses.  There was a review last year - the massive profits they've made have gone everywhere, but to the aboriginal people.  Look at ATSIC and their mismanagement.  For all the huge sums of money from the sale and lease of Native Title land - are they any better off?

Services have been neglected over the last couple of decades - they've been put in the too hard basket.  But if Rudd is serious about giving the children a chance, all funds - and they will be generous, have to be invested in health and education.  This is a mammoth task and will require billions of dollars to teach those in the outback - unless they're prepared to leave - how to care for and educate their children.  Hopefully Rudd will put in alcohol and drug rehabilitation clinics and workshops.  What good will huge personal cash payouts be?  Many of the adults - who are already too damaged won't use this cash to make a better life for their children - because they don't know how to.

Education is the only way out of their poverty and this is where investment has to be.  

If you remember recently the little girl who was starved to death - absolutely horrific - and she wasn't aboriginal.  Her father blamed DOCS for their neglect - not his neglect.  How many cases are there like this in Australia where children, indigenous or non indigenous, will use this as a precedent to sue a state or federal government for unfair legislation?  

The apology was a moral issue - not financial.



Title: Re: Rudd Apology Revealed
Post by mantra on Feb 16th, 2008 at 7:13am
This proposal by the Rudd government - from my point of view - is the beginning for many children living in remote communities and far more beneficial than a personal cash payout:

Mr Rudd promised that over the next five years, every indigenous four-year-old in remote Aboriginal communities would be enrolled in and attending a proper early childhood education centre.

Ms McKew admitted that the Government's preschool plan would fail unless teachers were convinced to work in remote communities.

"The national spirit has been lifted and it is a unique opportunity for many altruistic people to seize the day," she said. "I think the Prime Minister was making a call to arms and particularly when it comes to indigenous education we know the great challenge is getting quality teachers into communities."

About one in two indigenous four-year-olds - about 5500 children in total - miss out on preschool across the nation.

With the cost of preschool averaging $2256 a child nationally, and up to $6370 a head in the Northern Territory, the federal Government faces a cost of at least $12 million to meet its sorry day commitment. Ms McKew said a national rollout of the "Australian Early Development Index" to tackle childhood health problems would also help inform where new preschools were built first.

The AEDI, which is already being used in more than 50 communities, measures children's development using results from a teacher-completed checklist of more than 100 questions across five developmental areas.

Mr Rudd's pledge to provide this in the next five years is ambitious, with the biggest challenge being to find qualified teachers for preschools.

Ms McKew said it was critical to attract educators "whether they are young educators just coming out of their training or perhaps whether they are mid-life professionals who have worked in other areas".

Ms McKew lauded Aboriginal leader Noel Pearson's ambitious plan to recruit experienced teachers and the brightest graduates to work in the most disadvantaged indigenous communities by offering performance-linked incentives of up to $50,000 a year.

She said pay was important in getting good teachers to work in remote indigenous communities.

But Ms McKew said a sense of "duty" and pride in watching a child getting all the way to university was an incentive that would entice teachers.


http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23222099-5013172,00.html

Title: Re: Rudd Apology Revealed
Post by Oceans on Feb 16th, 2008 at 8:39am
"Why shouldnt they and who cares"?

Mantra says because it will open a "can of worms" and that money would be better spent on education and infrastructure

And it will be spent on eduaction and health and infrastructure. Our economy is flush we can comfortably afford this.



Rudd knew exactly what he was doing when he said "sorry".

He knew that calls for compensation would come.He doesnt strike me as having no foresight.
It was expected.Regardless of how many other disadvantaged groups there are in Australia..the ones who have  suffered the longest are the Ind pple //quite apart from detention centres  refugees (not Australian btw)-and those in orphanages etc!

As FD said just because these other circumstances exist is not a reason to deny them some form of compensation..maybe it would be limited to a few thousand each  to make it manageable.

I dont think it will help in any way to take away what happened or to give them a better life, but thats not for any of us to say. Why is comp given to anyone  of deleterious hardship if it in no way helps/puts right a hurt borne of negligence not of theyre own making.?

If you slip over on a wet Suprmarket floor and hurt yourself [any of us] we will be given compo if we make a claim- whats the diff?

When I say why shouldnt we give them compo? I meant it- who cares about this? obviously a lot of meanspirited ple who cant see past the ends of they're own noses.
Thats still a terrible reason not to allow them the rights every person has in relation to compo and born into a society where we are all supposed to have the rights and laws apply to all of us..Australian born should come first.

The Bernie Banton case was quite a bit different in that he was trying to claim compo from a company [James Hardy] is why it was so difficult to get. Ind pple will be dealing with Govt.


Mantra says

"
Quote:
Of course I agree with you Freediver and Rudd should have apologised and he has made it quite clear that there wouldn't be compensation


I thought he did? Maybe I missed something.

I believe they are entitled to compo and if they want it have a right to file a claim. If they get it or not is something else I guess. If we can waste millions per year on AID to overseas countries we can put a bit back into our own pple. They have a far greater needs basis in most circumstances anyway.

I dont think compo will benefit them but they are still entitled to it- regardless of what 'meanspirited' voters think.

The money for infrastructure and health and education will still be spent on Ind pple and theyre communites anyway and is the way out of theyre misery thats obvious.

This issue of compo wont go away..

Pay them out and get it over. To not do so...it will drag on divisively so for many years.





Title: Re: Rudd Apology Revealed
Post by mantra on Feb 16th, 2008 at 9:18am
It has nothing to do with being meanspirited Oceans!  It has everything to do with being practical.  We've seen the Howard government rip so much out of our services over the last decade and these need to be brought up to scratch as well.  Of course our indigenous people have to have equal rights to us and should have exactly the same services and opportunities that we do.  

But do you know that for every dollar spent on our services, whether it be education or health, we need five times that amount to ensure that aboriginal people are brought up to the same standard of education and health that we are.  

Australia is heavily in debt.  I always thought superannuation would get us out of it, if need be - but even today we are finding out that Australian superannuation funds are being rorted by hedge funds, many of them are American and we could be in trouble.  

We have to be very careful. We are not flush with funds.  These claims will clog up our Courts for years, and deny the rest of Australia natural justice for any claims they entitled to make as well.  

I don't deny that aboriginals who live in remote communities suffer and need their services brought up to date.  When my kids were at school - I remember a particular excursion - which was expensive and like many other parents at the time, I couldn't afford to let my children go.  There were half a dozen children and by looking and talking to them, you wouldn't know they had aboriginal heritage and their parents were the same as everyone else.  The school had a special fund for these children - and they went on this excursion - where many others didn't.  These sort of actions foster resentment amongst some people.

Obviously Rudd has had some imput here - but Victoria is now going to put in the extra resources needed to bring koori school kids up to a higher standard of education.  There would no doubt be federal funding put into this scheme but will non-indigenous kids who struggle receive the same special support?  This is saying sorry and it is also compensation.


Quote:
Under a sweeping overhaul, Victorian schools will be required to develop an "individual education plan" for every Koori student, setting out learning targets, recording the goals that students and their families wish to achieve in school, and identifying learning needs.

Each school will report back to the Education Department — and be accountable to the minister — about the way they teach Aborigines, with struggling students to receive accelerated literacy and numeracy support.

Ms Pike said she hoped the revamp would foster a "new culture of high expectations" for Victoria's 8000 Koori students.

"It's so important that we as a community don't give up hope on certain people and I think there's been a bit of that in the past — labelling people and saying, 'Oh, they're hopeless, they'll never achieve anything.' I just find that totally unacceptable," Ms Pike said.

"This is very genuine for me. I really do feel troubled, personally, at the outcomes for some Aboriginal young people. So this is about having the will to something about it."

The Education Department has conducted the most comprehensive review of indigenous education in Victoria's history.

Other changes include:

■Professional development to help teachers understand Koori culture.

■Stronger partnerships between schools and indigenous parents.

■Initiatives to improve literacy and numeracy.

■Scholarships and leadership opportunities for top Koori students in secondary schools.

■Employing more Koori support staff, and boosting the number of Koori teachers through new scholarships.

Ms Pike said that "one-size-fits-all" programs had not properly recognised the specific needs of Aboriginal students attending mainstream schools, and in some cases had further isolated Koori students.

http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/new-goals-for-koori-students/2008/02/15/1202760604751.html



Title: Re: Rudd Apology Revealed
Post by deepthought on Feb 16th, 2008 at 9:44am
I think you will find the meanspirited ones are those who believe an apology and a pile of cash will fix the problem which a pile of cash has created dude.  It can't happen.  And an apology merely tells folk we are to blame and they are victims.  It is the victim mentality which has created the passive welfare nightmare.  Reiterating victimhood will not remove victimhood.  

Only with John Howard's forward looking plans has some empowerment and semblance of decency been returning to some of the communities.  His mutual agreement programs have seen more kids in schools and more kids getting health care - and his recent intervention program in the NT is what was needed to get the Liebor States to start caring.  All of them, and now Kevvy, think mutterring a few words and trhrowing money at a problem will fix it.

It never has, never will and it will just worsen it.   That is what Whitlam started and Hawke continued.   Now Kevvy is picking up where they left off to return the mess to them after all the hard work of the Howard government to improve lives and save children.

I wish the meanspirited had left John Howard to fix it rather than give themselves a self-satisfied pat on the back for a job well done while the cash rolls in to communities to ruin more lives and they sit smugly sipping another latte and believing it has been fixed.

Guess what - the dishwasher is still broken.


Title: Re: Rudd Apology Revealed
Post by Oceans on Feb 16th, 2008 at 10:02am
It has nothing to do with being meanspirited Oceans!  It has everything to do with being practical.  We've seen the Howard government rip so much out of our services over the last decade and these need to be brought up to scratch as well.  Of course our indigenous people have to have equal rights to us and should have exactly the same services and opportunities that we do.  

I was not suggesting you were mean spirited mantra- I know your not, sorry if you took that to heart, I meant a lot of  Aussies in the community.


But do you know that for every dollar spent on our services, whether it be education or health, we need five times that amount to ensure that aboriginal people are brought up to the same standard of education and health that we are.  

Only because mantra that services to Ind pple in the bush have been non existent and broken for so long that it will be costly to upgrade and implement- Govts fault

Australia is heavily in debt.  I always thought superannuation would get us out of it, if need be - but even today we are finding out that Australian superannuation funds are being rorted by hedge funds, many of them are American and we could be in trouble.  

We have to be very careful. We are not flush with funds.  These claims will clog up our Courts for years, and deny the rest of Australia natural justice for any claims they entitled to make as well.  

When you start talking about this stuff mantra- you read far more than I do, that much is obvious- but I believe we,ve always operated with a level of debt hanging over our heads- ? Doesnt every country?

I don't deny that aboriginals who live in remote communities suffer and need their services brought up to date.  When my kids were at school - I remember a particular excursion - which was expensive and like many other parents at the time, I couldn't afford to let my children go.  There were half a dozen children and by looking and talking to them, you wouldn't know they had aboriginal heritage and their parents were the same as everyone else.  The school had a special fund for these children - and they went on this excursion - where many others didn't.  These sort of actions foster resentment amongst some people.

Im with you on this, its happened to me and mine- excursions can be expensive and it does seem unfair, but paternalistic Govt policy once again causing divide Im afraid.

Obviously Rudd has had some imput here - but Victoria is now going to put in the extra resources needed to bring koori school kids up to a higher standard of education.  There would no doubt be federal funding put into this scheme but will non-indigenous kids who struggle receive the same special support?  This is saying sorry and it is also compensation.

Im in total agreeance with you on this- but they are still entitled to apply for compensation-wether we like it or not.

Personally I think compo of any description [for anyone at all] is but a mere bandaid on an open wound..it willl not fix anything. Money just wont do it!! But if THE ISSUE is not dealt with swiftly in the affirmative or the negative - it will divide Australia even more and if we had bad feeling before- the fuzzy feelings of 2 days ago will be replaced by a black cloud of resentment and hate we most likely yet cant comprehend

.


I think they should either be offered a limited package [few thousand each] or none at all.

The issue isnt going away and needs to be dealt with asap.




Title: Re: Rudd Apology Revealed
Post by IQSRLOW on Feb 16th, 2008 at 10:10am
I think they should either be offered a limited package [few thousand each] or none at all.

The isssue isnt going away and needs to be dealt with asap.


You can't just issue a call say that you believe they should be allowed to claim for compo and then arbitrarily decide an amount that suits you...that's just ridiculous.  ::)

Haven't you learnt that throwing money at a problem as deep seated as that caused by state Labor govts will not work...Labor has already tried it to the detriment of the Aboriginal communities and the taxpayer.

It's what you get for voting in incompetence

Title: Re: Rudd Apology Revealed
Post by deepthought on Feb 16th, 2008 at 10:30am
There's an axiom within a human society and that is whatever you subsidise you get more of.  Little Kevvy's role in making us responsible for actions of our grandparents has returned the blame to the future where it does not belong.  In response to this insanity, compensation claims will fly out of the woodwork.  After all Little Kevvy said he was going to right the wrongs and the courts only have one way of doing that - monetary reparation.

Already dozens of claims are being prepared and the wave will build as precedence is set.

The greater the subsidy, the greater the demand for a subsidy, the greater the reliance on a subsidy and the less independence people have to make their own choices.

This is awful.  It will foster cultural difference and create chasms of divisiveness where the bridges were being built by the Howard government.

There are a lot of mean spirited people in the community - they have voted for Little Kevvy and they have applauded this terrible backward step.

Title: Re: Rudd Apology Revealed
Post by mantra on Feb 16th, 2008 at 10:41am

Quote:
It will foster cultural difference and create chasms of divisiveness where the bridges were being built by the Howard government


That is going a bit overboard isn't it deepthought?  After all the intervention only began in July last year and Howard had received a few very critical reports on the welfare of aboriginal children over his 12 years in office and they were ignored.

Also looking into the intervention, the coalition had closed down some scheme they had, which enabled aboriginal men to get subsidised work through the dole (or something similar).  Now they have nothing.  No work, no grog and no hope, which means that some of them are worse off than before the intervention,  because there are no rehabilitation services in place either to get them through this.

In regard to the health of the aboriginal children - from what I have read -  there has been no benefit so far gained through the intervention, unless it's the 99 year lease of some of their land to the government, and in that case, the developers are benefitting, and of course Mal Brough.

Title: Re: Rudd Apology Revealed
Post by IQSRLOW on Feb 16th, 2008 at 11:39am

mantra wrote on Feb 16th, 2008 at 10:41am:
That is going a bit overboard isn't it deepthought?


;D Now that's funny coming from you Mantra


mantra wrote on Feb 16th, 2008 at 10:41am:
After all the intervention only began in July last year and Howard had received a few very critical reports on the welfare of aboriginal children under the care of state Lbor govts over his 12 years in office and they were ignored or hidden by the state Labor govt- once it was realised that the state Labor govts had failed in their duty of care, JWH had to don his shing armour, mount his steed and co-ordinate a rescue when the Labor govts had failed tp provide a duty of care.


I fixed that for you...


Title: Re: Rudd Apology Revealed
Post by mantra on Feb 16th, 2008 at 11:53am
Thanks IQ - it's very much appreciated (not). ::)

Title: Re: Rudd Apology Revealed
Post by Oceans on Feb 16th, 2008 at 11:59am

deepthought wrote on Feb 16th, 2008 at 9:44am:
I think you will find the meanspirited ones are those who believe an apology and a pile of cash will fix the problem which a pile of cash has created dude.  It can't happen.

I think the pple who advocate cash for Ind pple are not meaning to be meanspirited and i dont believe they are-

 And an apology merely tells folk we are to blame and they are victims.  It is the victim mentality which has created the passive welfare nightmare.  Reiterating victimhood will not remove victimhood.  

Repeating "victimhood" will not get rid of the victim mentality, your right and the passive welfare [sitting down money] problem has now become endemic- generational even- it will be the next generation targetted by comprehensive Health policy from birth and the educational tools available to them to realise this  generational dependence on welfare to at last be  broken

Only with John Howard's forward looking plans has some empowerment and semblance of decency been returning to some of the communities.

Give me a break Deepthought-"forward looking!!!!" you have to be joking- the NT scam was a very obvious political ploy to scrape back into Government, dont show yourself to be deliberately vague or ignorant on his real intentions- does you no favours at all

 His mutual agreement programs have seen more kids in schools and more kids getting health care - and his recent intervention program in the NT is what was needed to get the Liebor States to start caring.  All of them, and now Kevvy, think mutterring a few words and trhrowing money at a problem will fix it.


meh!!  sourgrapes

It never has, never will and it will just worsen it.   That is what Whitlam started and Hawke continued.   Now Kevvy is picking up where they left off to return the mess to them after all the hard work of the Howard government to improve lives and save children.

I wish the meanspirited had left John Howard to fix it rather than give themselves a self-satisfied pat on the back for a job well done while the cash rolls in to communities to ruin more lives and they sit smugly sipping another latte and believing it has been fixed.

Well Mr Doomsdayer Sir- we'll just have to wait and see- I think as someone in Cracker said most of the right have severely underestimated Kevin Rudd and whilst it is thusly believed to be so..it will work to Rudds advantage. You are seeing one of the all time great Australian Prime Ministers and you dont even recognise the fact..........

Guess what - the dishwasher is still broken.

Along with the limping sad and pathetic Lib oppostion     :) ha ha - forever in the wilderness sounds pretty good!!!


Title: Re: Rudd Apology Revealed
Post by Ray_A on Feb 16th, 2008 at 2:06pm

deepthought wrote on Feb 16th, 2008 at 9:44am:
 And an apology merely tells folk we are to blame and they are victims.  It is the victim mentality which has created the passive welfare nightmare.  Reiterating victimhood will not remove victimhood.  


The link I wanted to provide earlier (still don't have much time):


Quote:
Child migration to Australia remains a poorly understood chapter in Australia’s

Commonwealth history. Myths, misunderstandings and deliberate deceptions

are deeply woven into this sorry saga. Human rights abuses on an

unprecedented scale, in our view, are denied by the federal and state

governments. Present day government responsibilities are shrugged off. The

charities and churches who played a major role in the abuse and deception still

deny their culpability, and speak of ‘good intentions’....


‘Populate or Perish’ was the catch cry of Australian politicians in the post war

era, and under that banner child migration was strongly pursued by successive

Australian Governments from 1912 to 1970.
(Emphases added)


http://www.aph.gov.au/senate/Committee/clac_ctte/completed_inquiries/1999-02/child_migrat/submissions/sub129.pdf   (PDF)

How many more apologies, how much more compensation?




Title: Re: Rudd Apology Revealed
Post by deepthought on Feb 16th, 2008 at 9:08pm

mantra wrote on Feb 16th, 2008 at 10:41am:
That is going a bit overboard isn't it deepthought?  After all the intervention only began in July last year and Howard had received a few very critical reports on the welfare of aboriginal children over his 12 years in office and they were ignored.


I expect you don't know very much about the extraordinary work undertaken by the Howard government then.

When they came to power they were hamstrung by Liebor policies which had been similar to what Little Kevvy is desperately trying to re-introduce.  First with Whitlam, then Hawke, then Cheating.  The booting off of the Missions, the establishment of the DAA followed by the disastrous ATSIC and the divisive abandonment they called self-determination.

From the very beginning of his Prime Ministership he was determined to get rid of the Liebor policies which had isolated Aboriginal communities and left them to rot while shovelling more and more cash at them.

But ATSIC was hard to budge because the cries of 'racism' become a dull roar from the bleeding hearts, the foolish and the misinformed.  Finally he closed it completely and it was abolished in 2005.  Even before it was abolished he had begun promoting a new spirit of cooperation and communication which Liebor had made impossible and the policies of 'Shared Responsibility Agreements' were begun.  The inaugural agreement came into force in 2004 in a remote WA community to try to address the very high incidence of trachoma.  Instead of throwing money at them and closing the door agencies developed infrastructure in return for the negotiated agreement being fulfilled - this involved daily showering of children, frequent face washing and the reduction of rubbish around the community.

There have been dozens of these agreements negotiated between government and the elders and they work exceptionally well compared to the Liebor policies of turning their back on them once a few words are muttered and cash allocated.  Kevvy wants it to return to that horror.

The chairwoman of one community describes what happened in the 70s when Liebor did what Kevvy wants to do.  It's long, but worth reading as an example of how Liebor policies always hurt people because all it does is make the bleeding hearts feel good as they stare at the silent dishwasher.


Quote:
I was born in Derby in 1975 because there were no facilities in Beagle Bay. My mother was 17-years-old – she came from the ‘system’ (Ward of the State). When we were allowed to leave the hospital, we came back to Beagle Bay where we lived with Dad in a one-room hut. My mum used to give me a bath under a tap in a basin, before the sun went down and it got cold. It was a hard life but we were lucky because we had an outside toilet of our own. The rest of the people on the reserve used an ablution block. There were still big mob people living in the bush, in camps, in fishing places. All the Nyul Nyul people used to live on the fringe of the reserve. I was in the assimilation camp, might as well call it. We weren’t really allowed to mix with the ‘traditional blacks’, as they were called then. When I learned how to walk, I used to take off, do my rounds in the reserve. When my sister Boudgie (Devena) came along, I had a little partner.

My grandfather was one of the first to get a house, which he bought from the Church for £500. We thought it was a mansion. The house was a symbol of entering into a ‘community’. Grandfather Dicky Cox (my grandfather Paul Cox’s brother) became the Chairperson of Beagle Bay Community Inc. The Church handed the land back to the people. We had moved off the reserve! My people saw it as a way forward where they would have authority over their own lives. Thirty years have passed since the incorporation of Beagle Bay Community Inc. in my birth year. We’ve now got what we call a ‘community’.

However in many ways it has been a hollow dream. The truth is that Beagle Bay is an example of an Aboriginal community failed by government over three decades. In the course of my life, Beagle Bay has stopped growing.

Our own people got caught in the traps set by government, who said ‘See you later, goodbye.’ There was no investment of human capital, only funding. No one to show us the way. No mentorship. We were willing to try. We were left with bad habits. The dark side of human nature prevailed over the goodness too many times. The 'system' failed us. In turn, some of us have failed our people.


So what happened to these forgotten people?  John Howard rescued them in 2004 once he had got ATSIC out of the way.  The chairwoman continues  . . . . .


Quote:
The SRA is about us taking stock. Where are we? Where do we want to get to? What do we need? Let's stop blaming and start rejuvenating. Some of these issues have been around for a long time but we've never been able to tackle them strategically with government. We can now negotiate customised programs and solutions, rather than applying for funding to a program that we have to try and adapt to our community but which may not be relevant or workable.


John Howard fixes what Liebor roots.   But Kevvy wants to go back to the future with empty words and cash.  It's so sad that there are mean spirits on the left of politics.

Title: Re: Rudd Apology Revealed
Post by Soren on Oct 9th, 2010 at 8:35pm
Who's sorry now??


Title: Re: Rudd Apology Revealed
Post by mellie on Oct 9th, 2010 at 9:10pm

Soren wrote on Oct 9th, 2010 at 8:35pm:
Who's sorry now??



Speaking of sorry, have you read this...

http://www.crikey.com.au/2010/06/04/closing-the-gap-rudd-overpromised-on-indigenous-unemployment/


Title: Re: Rudd Apology Revealed
Post by Imperium on Oct 9th, 2010 at 9:11pm
mellie i want to close the gap between my penis and some sexy mamas

Title: Re: Rudd Apology Revealed
Post by Karnal on Oct 9th, 2010 at 9:12pm

deepthought wrote on Feb 12th, 2008 at 5:35pm:
Yep, it is an admission of liability - it will be followed by billions in compensation, a strong sense of victimhood, a whole lot of 'gimme gimme gimme' and a further division between cultures which John Howard has gone a long way towards repairing.


Hang on, why shouldn't there be compensation?

The 12 year old girl who was prostituted in Tasmania now has lawyers lining up to represent her. They're talking million dollar compensation figures.

Why shouldn't the same apply to anyone else?


Title: Re: Rudd Apology Revealed
Post by buzzanddidj on Oct 10th, 2010 at 5:40pm
FORMER prime minister Kevin Rudd would slip past his security detail and "play hookey" from the Lodge when the pressures of his confined life became too much, he has revealed.
"It's fantastic to just drive yourself," he said in his first interview since the election.

"The AFP used to freak out every time I took the car for a drive."

Today a conceited celebrity house cat is the only irksome domestic issue he faces as he revels in new found freedoms.

The former prime minister told the Sunday Herald Sun his removal from office in June has re-acquainted him with family, friends and the joys of the more banal aspects of life.

Free of bitterness about the events of June 24, he sees the loss of the prime ministership as a chance to get back in the driver's seat, literally.

The Australian Federal Police were "outstanding professionals", but their dedication to duty could be so oppressive he'd occasionally give them the slip.

"As prime minister, occasionally, I would just play hookey from the Lodge - just disappear," he said.

His motive wasn't necessarily to seek time alone as to give his protectors a break.

"It was just about not having to bother people.

"It's not in my nature to say, 'Marshall the Fourth Field Army so I can go to the IGA and get a litre of milk'."


http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/national/rudd-played-hookey-from-the-lodge-when-he-was-prime-minister/story-e6frf7l6-1225936427904

ONYA, KEV !




Title: Re: Rudd Apology Revealed
Post by layeazy on Jan 16th, 2011 at 9:13am
I'm sorry that we even have this debate!

Why is it still an issue! Look at it this way 6 millions Jews got brutally executed by the Nazi's however we are not saying sorry or are the Jews expecting anything they have just got on with it.

i know plenty of Aboriginals that are quite happy to play the victim to be this poor victim of modern society and live off benefits and enjoy just relaxing and not contributing to society.

Cant we just move on having we made enough mistakes in the past to not just say OK now its finished lets move on lets make some changes in the indigenous circles and get proactive..

Title: Re: Rudd Apology Revealed
Post by life_goes_on on Jan 16th, 2011 at 9:30am

Quote:
Why is it still an issue! Look at it this way 6 millions Jews got brutally executed by the Nazi's however we are not saying sorry or are the Jews expecting anything they have just got on with it


Germany formally apologised for the Holocaust.
Israel and various Jewish organisations have sought and been receiving reparation payments from Germany since the early 1950s. The claims still continue today.

Title: Re: Rudd Apology Revealed
Post by alevine on Jan 16th, 2011 at 11:38am

layeazy wrote on Jan 16th, 2011 at 9:13am:
I'm sorry that we even have this debate!

Why is it still an issue! Look at it this way 6 millions Jews got brutally executed by the Nazi's however we are not saying sorry or are the Jews expecting anything they have just got on with it.

i know plenty of Aboriginals that are quite happy to play the victim to be this poor victim of modern society and live off benefits and enjoy just relaxing and not contributing to society.

Cant we just move on having we made enough mistakes in the past to not just say OK now its finished lets move on lets make some changes in the indigenous circles and get proactive..


Uhmmm...I think some history is in order for you my friend.  Go read up on the reparations Germany paid.

A better example to use would've been the genocide orchestrated on Armenia by Turkey. That's still not recognised.  And guess what, many are still suffering because of that.

Not to mention that the debate over saying sorry to indigenous people has passed....if you haven't noticed...

Title: Re: Rudd Apology Revealed
Post by Infarction on Jan 16th, 2011 at 12:20pm

layeazy wrote on Jan 16th, 2011 at 9:13am:
I'm sorry that we even have this debate!

Why is it still an issue! Look at it this way 6 millions Jews got brutally executed by the Nazi's however we are not saying sorry or are the Jews expecting anything they have just got on with it.

i know plenty of Aboriginals that are quite happy to play the victim to be this poor victim of modern society and live off benefits and enjoy just relaxing and not contributing to society.

Cant we just move on having we made enough mistakes in the past to not just say OK now its finished lets move on lets make some changes in the indigenous circles and get proactive..


;D ;D

Don't you just love ignorance at it's finest.

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