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General Discussion >> General Board >> Anorexia or obesity?
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Message started by freediver on Dec 4th, 2007 at 5:55pm

Title: Anorexia or obesity?
Post by freediver on Dec 4th, 2007 at 5:55pm
McDonalds couldn't have come up with a better disease if they tried. We are constantly told that a catwalk figure is unobtainable, that we have no control over what our body does. We are allowed to believe that a sedentary lifestyle is normal. We are told that 90 minutes of exercise a week is adequate. We are told not to stress if we can't shake off that fat. We are sold processed foods by the trolley full and reassured that you don't have to put much effort into dinner. We are constantly warned not to try too hard to slim down, in case we become a gaunt, psychotic shadow of a human with a warped sense of beauty. We are told that exercise merely increases appetite.

http://www.ozpolitic.com/articles/anorexia-obesity.html

10 more causes of obesity: http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1164689657



Childhood obesity 'to grow dramatically'

http://www.smh.com.au/news/World/Childhood-obesity-to-grow-dramatically/2007/12/06/1196812875761.html

Childhood obesity will grow dramatically in coming years, raising death rates from heart disease, new studies in the United States and Denmark show.

A commentary in the New England Journal of Medicine, which published the studies, warned that if steps were not taken to reverse the problem, the children of each successive generation were destined to be "fatter and sicker than their parents."

For example, a 13-year-old boy who was 11.2 kg above the average weight was found to be 33 per cent more likely than a child of normal weight to have a heart attack or some other problem caused by coronary heart disease (CHD) by age 60.

Title: Re: Anorexia or obesity?
Post by Labor_Man on Dec 14th, 2007 at 1:43am
No offence, but I believe that every person has the will to lose weight if they so choose it. I was 100 Kilos for a few years, Then I started noticing that my weight was impeding my health/movement, and I was sweating like there was no tommorrow(not that that's related I don't think?)

But allthough it was hard, I didn't need a diet of sorts. I just walked a hell of alot and ate well, and not too much. Stayed away from fast food most of all. Now I'm 85(not much of an improvement) But I feel a heck of alot better physically/ emotionally.

Title: Re: Anorexia or obesity?
Post by freediver on Dec 14th, 2007 at 10:41am
Sweating would be linked to fat. Fat insulates you - it keeps you warm. So you have to sweat more to cool off. It also makes you work harder to get around. I've also noticed that exercise improves my state of mind.

There was a big write up in the weekend Australian about sleep and obesity. Apparently lack of sleep can explain a lot of the obesity and also the difficulty in dealing with it. It is counterintuitive that you should spend more time in bed to lose weight.

Australian kids' sleep-deprivation 'epidemic'

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,22890719-421,00.html

AUSTRALIAN children, teenagers in particular, are going through a sleep-deprivation epidemic.

Sleep expert Arthur Teng, head of the Sydney Children's Hospital's department of sleep medicine, believes many children are being wrongly diagnosed with learning difficulties or Attention Deficit Disorder (ADD) when all they really need is more sleep.

"Teenagers today are chronically sleep-deprived," Dr Teng said.

"A 15-year-old should be getting nine to 10 hours' sleep a night, but they're lucky to get six or seven.

"It's a public-health issue. We hear a lot of talk about alcohol, but how often do you hear about sleep?

"It's the one issue doctors don't often address. It's quicker to write a prescription for stimulants than to look at a child's sleep history."

Studies have also linked lack of sleep to obesity because it can affect a child's metabolism.

Dr Teng said modern children had many more distractions keeping them up late at night.

Some US schools have experimented with beginning classes an hour later, with astonishing results, including a rise in average test scores and, in one case, a drop of 16 per cent in the number of teenage car accidents.

Later bedtime may lead to childhood obesity: study

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/05/29/1935939.htm

Researchers at the University of South Australia say that children are going to bed half-an-hour later than they did 20 years ago.

Study author Dr Jim Dollman says although children are waking up at about the same time at around 7:00am, they are now going to bed later.

He says children aged between 10 and 15 years, on average, now go to bed at about 10:15pm, which is half-an-hour later than in 1985.

Dr Dollman says the lack of sleep could be a cause of higher weight levels in children.

"That's the difference in sleep duration between overweight and normal weight children, according to a recent study overseas," he said.

"So it may well be that the 30-minute reduction is contributing in the increase in the prevalence of overweight that we're seeing among children."

Title: Re: Anorexia or obesity?
Post by Labor_Man on Dec 14th, 2007 at 3:24pm
I've had a pretty erratic sleeping pattern from around the time I was 15, that could be linked to why I had a slow metabolism, evidently the cause of my weight gain. I was around 70 kilos back then, which my doctor said, for my height was an average weight, not too overweight or under. Then later on when I got to being around the age of 16-17 I started to pack the weight on.

I used to go to bed @ around 8-9pm and wake up around 5-6am. Now it's more erratic, so much so I don't think I can identify a
set pattern for my sleep. There seems to be an epidemic, if that's the case, we need to get the message out there, but how?

Title: Re: Anorexia or obesity?
Post by freediver on Dec 14th, 2007 at 3:27pm
You could always try emailing a link to this thread to everyone you know....

Title: Re: Anorexia or obesity?
Post by tocrasher on Jan 16th, 2008 at 2:46am
"Food is not addictive like cigarettes are, yet we have managed significant social change on cigarettes in less than a generation."

I beg to differ.
I used to work at the dreaded McDonald's, after eating the food I would find to have significant cravings for it, akin to the nicotine cravings a cigarette smoker experiences. Literally to the point that I would miss out on an entire lesson of the school day due to fantasizing about McChicken burgers (which, coincidentally contain 1750calories, more than three quarters of the daily recommended caloric intake of someone trying to maintain their current weight).


I now don't eat it at all, ha.

Oh and as for the sleep thing, it can work the other way too. Many anorexics complain of insomnia- visit any pro-ana forum to see first hand for yourself.

Also, as to the remark in the article about anorexic scaremongering;
I think the reason that obesity tends to be glossed over in favour of anorexia (I shall hitherto refer to Anorexia as 'ana'), at least media wise, is due to the almost cult-like following that Ana has built around it. There are countless forums and websites proudly proclaiming their 'pro-ana' status- with recipes, weight loss tips, 'thinspiration' (pictures of thin people- usually female to 'motivate' the aspiring Ana girls, heck, just google the term in Youtube to come up with countless videos of thin, sometimes emaciated girls. Heck, there's even sites that offer purging tips to aspiring bulimics (known as mia).

Anyway, my point being, there's almost a sort of underground Anorexic syndicate which is, in large (oh the irony), very disturbing.
Do obese people have a Fat Club? I think not.



Apologies if this post was sort of incoherent, I haven't slept in like 50hours,


Title: Many obese people 'deny' they are fat
Post by freediver on Jan 16th, 2008 at 9:16pm
Hi tocrasher and welcome to OzPolitic.

I'm sure there are plenty of fat clubs and groups for people with fat fetishes. Just not enough for all the fat people around.

As for addictiveness, just because you get a craving for something doesn't mean it is addictive. Getting 3/4 of you daily energy requirement from one easy meal makes it a good choice from a normal survival sense, even if it is lacking in other nutrients. Under natural settings such a meal would give you the energy to seek out those other nutrients.

To be regarded as addictive, a substance must chemically over-ride the normal feedback mechanisms in the brain. That is, a substance that has no value for survival, but mimics signal chemicals used in the brain. There must also be significant consequences associated with withdrawal. If you stop eating junk food, you stop thinking about it soon enough. You don't lose control of your emotions or risk death because your brain can no longer function without it.



This sounds very similar to anorexia - a warped self image:

Many obese people 'deny' they are fat

http://news.smh.com.au/many-obese-people-deny-they-are-fat/20080125-1o4x.html

More than half of Australian adults are either overweight or obese, but are increasingly kidding themselves that they are not fat, a new government report shows.

The report also found that overweight and obese people were increasingly likely to see themselves as having an acceptable weight, rising from 37 per cent in 1995, to 41 per cent in 2001 and 44 per cent in 2004-05.

The Australian Medical Association has called on the federal government to match Britain's decision to adopt a national obesity strategy.

The UK government will spend STG372 million ($A837 million) over three years to fight the epidemic in Britain.

AMA president Rosanna Capolingua said leadership to tackle the crisis must come from the federal government.

The AMA wants mandatory labelling of 'added' trans fats content in packaged foods, followed by the removal of added trans fats from food.

It also wants the government to subsidise the cost of basic nutritious foods in parts of Australia where costs are consistently above the national average.



'Cold climate genes' blamed for obesity

http://news.smh.com.au/cold-climate-genes-blamed-for-obesity/20080215-1shd.html

Genes that helped early humans adapt to cold climates may be driving metabolism-related diseases such as obesity or diabetes in many countries, US researchers say.

They found a strong correlation between climate and genetic adaptations that influence the risk of metabolic syndrome, a group of related disorders such as obesity, high cholesterol, heart disease and diabetes.



from crikey:

Pharmacists sign with Big Pharma to promote anti-fat drug
Ray Moynihan writes:

The controversial anti-fat drug Xenical has been given a new lease of life, with the announcement of a special financial arrangement between pharmacists and Swiss drug giant Roche.

The commercial arm of the Pharmacy Guild has just signed a deal with Roche to become the "brand manager" for Xenical, a drug criticised for modest benefits and the side effects of diarrhea.

The Guild represents almost 5000 Australian pharmacists, and its commercial arm Gold Cross already endorses many products, including vitamins, cold and flu tablets and methadone.

But this latest deal to "brand manage" Xenical has attracted fierce criticism from Adelaide GP Dr Peter Mansfield, who says the drug is "almost ineffective and has frequent unpleasant adverse effects." A recent review of trials showed that over a year, in combination with a special diet, the drug may help someone lose 3 kg more than a person who simply had the diet. Up to a third of those taking the drug suffer problems including "oily stool, faecal urgency and oily spotting."

Attacking the deal Mansfield told Crikey: "Pharmacists need to decide if they want to work for the drug companies or for their patients. This is a short term temptation to make money at the expense of public trust in the long run."

Roche has already come under heavy flak for Xenical TV ads run during Australian Idol, attracting criticism it was marketing the drug to healthy young people concerned about body image.

The Pharmacy Guild’s national president Kos Sclavos strongly defended the deal and rejected criticisms of Xenical.

"It is one of the few proven efficacious drugs for weight loss" he said.

"We disagree with assertions that the product has a significant side effect profile. The diarrhea, the side effect, is actually part of the way the product works."

According to Sclavos, the Guild’s commercial arm stepped in because Roche had essentially stopped marketing it, and there was fear the company would withdraw it. He also criticized the Roche TV ads and said the drug would be marketed "professionally."

Title: Re: Anorexia or obesity?
Post by muso on Jun 18th, 2008 at 10:59am
This is an old thread, but it's true that because people in general are heavier these days,  they not only think that their weight is acceptable when it's clearly causing them health problems, but they think that people whose weight is normal, are anorexic.  

I have had comments that I'm anorexic, or just too thin, even though my BMI would place me as just on the upper edge of the acceptable range. It's on the upper edge because of higher than average muscle development as a result of my weight training exercises.

People are just not used to athletes.

Roll on the Bridge to Brisbane! 83 days to go!

Title: Re: Anorexia or obesity?
Post by Mary Breaux on Feb 10th, 2011 at 12:39pm
I think that every person has to have a constant battle with himself or herself. I don't even take supplements anymore since more and more people are becoming conscious about their health, there are deceitful companies that make up so-called supplements, and "herbal", "natural" products. If you want to be sure, go to the market, buy fresh fruits and veggies and take the time to prepare things from scratch...


Title: Re: Anorexia or obesity?
Post by cods on Feb 10th, 2011 at 2:50pm
I have a theory about this... and I dont find food is as satisfying as it once was..

Bread is the biggy.. I remember coming home from school.[always starving] and eating usually the crusty bit off the end of the loaf.. and that would do me.we only had jam in my day..now some can eat half a loaf of bread and still look for something else..

what can I feed my 13 yr old grandson he is well over 50kilos and we cant fill him up..he is going to be a big boy his dad is over 6ft and wears size 13 shoes.. so we are not kidding ourselves he is going to be slim, but we dont want flabby.. so what do you do... if they buy  lowfat yogurt, he eats the lot.

Title: Re: Anorexia or obesity?
Post by WESLEY.PIPES on Feb 10th, 2011 at 4:04pm

cods wrote on Feb 10th, 2011 at 2:50pm:
I have a theory about this... and I dont find food is as satisfying as it once was..

Bread is the biggy.. I remember coming home from school.[always starving] and eating usually the crusty bit off the end of the loaf.. and that would do me.we only had jam in my day..now some can eat half a loaf of bread and still look for something else..

what can I feed my 13 yr old grandson he is well over 50kilos and we cant fill him up..he is going to be a big boy his dad is over 6ft and wears size 13 shoes.. so we are not kidding ourselves he is going to be slim, but we dont want flabby.. so what do you do... if they buy  lowfat yogurt, he eats the lot.



they like to make out that fat is the enemy, and to some extent, it is.  It is the most energy-rich per gram, with 1g of fat containing more than double the calories of 1g of carbohydrate.  However, it's much harder for the body to break down, so keeps you full for longer.  Lowfat/fat free foods  are often packed with sugar, which the body breaks down rapidly, so you do not feel full for long.  
Protein is hardest for the body to break down, and makes you feel full for longer.  Obviosuly a balance is fats/carbs and protein is required, but modern diets generally are not varied enough to provide the right balance, and the body adapts, but not always in the way you hoped for.

Title: Re: Anorexia or obesity?
Post by DifferentFrequency on Dec 26th, 2014 at 3:00pm
Progressives have dicked it up again. They made this destructive feminist issue out of body image. My sister and I both worry about it, but my mum who grew up before the whole big is beautiful push has never found watching her weight is a burden.

It's about the poisoness modern life but its confused with Feminism.

Having said that, body image issues are a massive downer. I think about how disgusting I look all day, and im not even medically obese. I'm 3 kgs over the weight I should be.

Title: Re: Anorexia or obesity?
Post by The Grappler (50 shades of) on Dec 26th, 2014 at 3:04pm
Two bodies or not two bodies - that is the question.....

My favourite study of heart issues was by an Indian doctor, who, in doing a study of thin and fat people, determined that a man who had a poor diet when young had a body that acted like a fat person's body in that it stored fat and clogged arteries.  I relate to that since I - and siblings - were half-starved when young, and all have early heart troubles.

To me this has the ring of truth.... a starved rat, once introduced to a good diet, accumulates all the problem stuff at the same rate as a fat man... the body hoards against the next lean time.... and thus self-destructs.

Just saying...

Title: Re: Anorexia or obesity?
Post by DifferentFrequency on Dec 26th, 2014 at 3:08pm

cods wrote on Feb 10th, 2011 at 2:50pm:
I have a theory about this... and I dont find food is as satisfying as it once was..

Bread is the biggy.. I remember coming home from school.[always starving] and eating usually the crusty bit off the end of the loaf.. and that would do me.we only had jam in my day..now some can eat half a loaf of bread and still look for something else..

what can I feed my 13 yr old grandson he is well over 50kilos and we cant fill him up..he is going to be a big boy his dad is over 6ft and wears size 13 shoes.. so we are not kidding ourselves he is going to be slim, but we dont want flabby.. so what do you do... if they buy  lowfat yogurt, he eats the lot.


who knows what poisons have affected us. I gain weight if I eat normally and only stabilize if I ruthlessly diet.

Im led to believe that people get fat from antidepressants because he body is surrounding the organs with fat to protect the organs from the toxins.

Food today is poison, unless you eat game meat only (even the vegetables have been GM so we don't even have the breeds from 70 years ago when his started.  maybe we want to eat more to make that layer of fat.





Title: Re: Anorexia or obesity?
Post by ian on Dec 26th, 2014 at 4:29pm
the only thing which makes us fat are carbohydrates, even exercise isnt strictly neccassary to control weight.

Title: Re: Anorexia or obesity?
Post by Dame Pansi on Dec 27th, 2014 at 6:40am


The only thing that makes us fat is consuming more kilojoules than we burn up.

Title: Re: Anorexia or obesity?
Post by cods on Dec 27th, 2014 at 7:43am

Ex Dame Pansi wrote on Dec 27th, 2014 at 6:40am:
The only thing that makes us fat is consuming more kilojoules than we burn up.



spot on..

we do not move enough.....how many fat people do you see walking or jogging....almost none..why.. because they cant.....

until I was about 30 I walked everywhere..or run I was always late for the buses....no one thought about what energy we burnt just doing that each and every day it was the norm for almost everyone.....

it wasnt until we became a two car family it kind of all went pear shaped... pun intended...

on top of that we ate more food instead of less.....we could afford two cars we could afford to put more food on our plates....even kids were told eat up...even if it was clear they had had enough..

pansi have you noticed.. [me included] how when food serves get smaller.[maccas] we whinge like hell.. ::) ::)

we are our own worst enemy.... I am btw working on finding the lose 7 kilos overnight secret....

I will write a book...of course.... ::) ::) may sign a copy for you if you are interested.....

Title: Re: Anorexia or obesity?
Post by The_Barnacle_Oh_Yeah on Dec 27th, 2014 at 9:48am

... wrote on Feb 10th, 2011 at 4:04pm:
they like to make out that fat is the enemy, and to some extent, it is.  It is the most energy-rich per gram, with 1g of fat containing more than double the calories of 1g of carbohydrate.  


They've had a few interesting documentaries on SBS this year about this subject.

One theory goes that the biggest contributor to obesity in modern society is the combination of sugar and fat together. This combination does not occur in nature, so our bodies arn't able to cope with it and, like a drug, we eat more than is healthy for us.
Examples of foods that combine fats and sugar are Ice cream, chocolate, cheese cake, doughnuts and biscuits. All foods that we over indulge in (my mouth is watering just thinking about them).

Title: Re: Anorexia or obesity?
Post by Stratos on Dec 27th, 2014 at 9:51am

The_Barnacle wrote on Dec 27th, 2014 at 9:48am:
One theory goes that the biggest contributor to obesity in modern society is the combination of sugar and fat together.


While both are not good for you, sugar is by far the worse offender of this deadly duo.  Fat at least has SOME nutritional content apart from just being empty kilojoules, whereas sugar is almost entirely pure energy in its mots common form (sucrose)

Additionally, fat needs to be broken down by your digestive system, which uses kjs in the process, while sugar takes almost none (and glucose takes zero)

Title: Re: Anorexia or obesity?
Post by The_Barnacle_Oh_Yeah on Dec 27th, 2014 at 10:24am

DifferentFrequency wrote on Dec 26th, 2014 at 3:08pm:
Im led to believe that people get fat from antidepressants because he body is surrounding the organs with fat to protect the organs from the toxins.

Food today is poison, unless you eat game meat only (even the vegetables have been GM so we don't even have the breeds from 70 years ago when his started.  maybe we want to eat more to make that layer of fat.


Absolute pseudo scientific nonsense.
Our life expectancies are longer and we are taller than precious generations due to better nutrition. There is absolutely no evidence that GM food is in any way harmful and due to modern food production practices we are far less likely to catch diseases and parasites from our food like we were in the past.





Ex Dame Pansi wrote on Dec 27th, 2014 at 6:40am:
The only thing that makes us fat is consuming more kilojoules than we burn up.


Exactly right. I know this from personal experience as I've lost 15 kg the past 6 months due to counting my kilojoules.

Exercise only really helps losing weight when it is combined with a controlled diet. An hours work out will burn around 1000kj which is what is in a single Mars bar.

Title: Re: Anorexia or obesity?
Post by Dame Pansi on Dec 27th, 2014 at 10:29am

The_Barnacle wrote on Dec 27th, 2014 at 10:24am:

DifferentFrequency wrote on Dec 26th, 2014 at 3:08pm:
Im led to believe that people get fat from antidepressants because he body is surrounding the organs with fat to protect the organs from the toxins.

Food today is poison, unless you eat game meat only (even the vegetables have been GM so we don't even have the breeds from 70 years ago when his started.  maybe we want to eat more to make that layer of fat.


Absolute pseudo scientific nonsense.
Our life expectancies are longer and we are taller than precious generations due to better nutrition. There is absolutely no evidence that GM food is in any way harmful and due to modern food production practices we are far less likely to catch diseases and parasites from our food like we were in the past.





Ex Dame Pansi wrote on Dec 27th, 2014 at 6:40am:
The only thing that makes us fat is consuming more kilojoules than we burn up.


Exactly right. I know this from personal experience as I've lost 15 kg the past 6 months due to counting my kilojoules.

Exercise only really helps losing weight when it is combined with a controlled diet. An hours work out will burn around 1000kj which is what is in a single Mars bar.



True. If you have 2000 more kj than your body requires, you will gain weight, if you have 2000 less, you will lose weight. It all depends on the energy (kj) you use/ burn up.

Title: Re: Anorexia or obesity?
Post by Dame Pansi on Dec 27th, 2014 at 10:37am

cods wrote on Dec 27th, 2014 at 7:43am:

Ex Dame Pansi wrote on Dec 27th, 2014 at 6:40am:
The only thing that makes us fat is consuming more kilojoules than we burn up.



spot on..

we do not move enough.....how many fat people do you see walking or jogging....almost none..why.. because they cant.....

until I was about 30 I walked everywhere..or run I was always late for the buses....no one thought about what energy we burnt just doing that each and every day it was the norm for almost everyone.....

it wasnt until we became a two car family it kind of all went pear shaped... pun intended...

on top of that we ate more food instead of less.....we could afford two cars we could afford to put more food on our plates....even kids were told eat up...even if it was clear they had had enough..

pansi have you noticed.. [me included] how when food serves get smaller.[maccas] we whinge like hell.. ::) ::)

we are our own worst enemy.... I am btw working on finding the lose 7 kilos overnight secret....

I will write a book...of course.... ::) ::) may sign a copy for you if you are interested.....



I do see fat people down the gym, they are inspirational, I just wish they all took another fat person along with them.

A worthwhile gov initiative would be to give obese people free gym membership for three months, if they lose weight in that time they get another three months. Only those on health care cards, the richies can take themselves or..................

It could save a heck of a lot in health care costs in the future. Prevention is better than cure.

Title: Re: Anorexia or obesity?
Post by ian on Dec 27th, 2014 at 2:42pm

Ex Dame Pansi wrote on Dec 27th, 2014 at 6:40am:
The only thing that makes us fat is consuming more kilojoules than we burn up.

wrong. You can consume as much protein as you like but the extra calories will not be stored as fat, they will be excreted through your kidneys.
Next myth!

Title: Re: Anorexia or obesity?
Post by ian on Dec 27th, 2014 at 2:44pm

Ex Dame Pansi wrote on Dec 27th, 2014 at 10:29am:

The_Barnacle wrote on Dec 27th, 2014 at 10:24am:

DifferentFrequency wrote on Dec 26th, 2014 at 3:08pm:
Im led to believe that people get fat from antidepressants because he body is surrounding the organs with fat to protect the organs from the toxins.

Food today is poison, unless you eat game meat only (even the vegetables have been GM so we don't even have the breeds from 70 years ago when his started.  maybe we want to eat more to make that layer of fat.


Absolute pseudo scientific nonsense.
Our life expectancies are longer and we are taller than precious generations due to better nutrition. There is absolutely no evidence that GM food is in any way harmful and due to modern food production practices we are far less likely to catch diseases and parasites from our food like we were in the past.





Ex Dame Pansi wrote on Dec 27th, 2014 at 6:40am:
The only thing that makes us fat is consuming more kilojoules than we burn up.


Exactly right. I know this from personal experience as I've lost 15 kg the past 6 months due to counting my kilojoules.

Exercise only really helps losing weight when it is combined with a controlled diet. An hours work out will burn around 1000kj which is what is in a single Mars bar.



True. If you have 2000 more kj than your body requires, you will gain weight, if you have 2000 less, you will lose weight. It all depends on the energy (kj) you use/ burn up.
100 percent wrong and this myth the main reason why so many struggle and  fail to lose weight and keep it off. we only have to look at hunter gather societies to see the absurdity of the claim.

Title: Re: Anorexia or obesity?
Post by ian on Dec 27th, 2014 at 2:47pm

The_Barnacle wrote on Dec 27th, 2014 at 9:48am:

... wrote on Feb 10th, 2011 at 4:04pm:
they like to make out that fat is the enemy, and to some extent, it is.  It is the most energy-rich per gram, with 1g of fat containing more than double the calories of 1g of carbohydrate.  


They've had a few interesting documentaries on SBS this year about this subject.

One theory goes that the biggest contributor to obesity in modern society is the combination of sugar and fat together. This combination does not occur in nature, so our bodies arn't able to cope with it and, like a drug, we eat more than is healthy for us.
Examples of foods that combine fats and sugar are Ice cream, chocolate, cheese cake, doughnuts and biscuits. All foods that we over indulge in (my mouth is watering just thinking about them).
this is also wrong, fat does not make you fat, the offender in all those foods you mentioned is carbohyrdates. Think about it, for half a million years our ancestors lived mostly on animal fats and protein, simple  carbohydrates do not occurr naturally in the wild to any great degree , it was extremely rare for our ancestors to obtain any.

Title: Re: Anorexia or obesity?
Post by ian on Dec 27th, 2014 at 2:49pm

Ex Dame Pansi wrote on Dec 27th, 2014 at 10:37am:

cods wrote on Dec 27th, 2014 at 7:43am:

Ex Dame Pansi wrote on Dec 27th, 2014 at 6:40am:
The only thing that makes us fat is consuming more kilojoules than we burn up.



spot on..

we do not move enough.....how many fat people do you see walking or jogging....almost none..why.. because they cant.....

until I was about 30 I walked everywhere..or run I was always late for the buses....no one thought about what energy we burnt just doing that each and every day it was the norm for almost everyone.....

it wasnt until we became a two car family it kind of all went pear shaped... pun intended...

on top of that we ate more food instead of less.....we could afford two cars we could afford to put more food on our plates....even kids were told eat up...even if it was clear they had had enough..

pansi have you noticed.. [me included] how when food serves get smaller.[maccas] we whinge like hell.. ::) ::)

we are our own worst enemy.... I am btw working on finding the lose 7 kilos overnight secret....

I will write a book...of course.... ::) ::) may sign a copy for you if you are interested.....



I do see fat people down the gym, they are inspirational, I just wish they all took another fat person along with them.

A worthwhile gov initiative would be to give obese people free gym membership for three months, if they lose weight in that time they get another three months. Only those on health care cards, the richies can take themselves or..................

It could save a heck of a lot in health care costs in the future. Prevention is better than cure.
overweight people never, ever sustain weight loss through excercise. Its a common myth but a ridiculous one if you know basic math. The difference in calories burned by a 100 kilo person walking up a flight of stairs than if they didnt is exactly 3.

Title: Re: Anorexia or obesity?
Post by Honky on Dec 27th, 2014 at 2:53pm
Fats are not the bodies preferred energy source if carbohydrates are available, thus, if the bodies energy needs are already being met by those carbs (which they likely weren't in the time you refer to) the energy ingested in the form of fats will be excreted and/or converted back to fat and stored.  So in this case, fat can make you fat.


Title: Re: Anorexia or obesity?
Post by The Mechanic on Dec 27th, 2014 at 3:05pm

cods wrote on Dec 27th, 2014 at 7:43am:

Ex Dame Pansi wrote on Dec 27th, 2014 at 6:40am:
The only thing that makes us fat is consuming more kilojoules than we burn up.



spot on..

we do not move enough.....how many fat people do you see walking or jogging....almost none..why.. because they cant.....

until I was about 30 I walked everywhere..or run I was always late for the buses....no one thought about what energy we burnt just doing that each and every day it was the norm for almost everyone.....

it wasnt until we became a two car family it kind of all went pear shaped... pun intended...

on top of that we ate more food instead of less.....we could afford two cars we could afford to put more food on our plates....even kids were told eat up...even if it was clear they had had enough..

pansi have you noticed.. [me included] how when food serves get smaller.[maccas] we whinge like hell.. ::) ::)

we are our own worst enemy.... I am btw working on finding the lose 7 kilos overnight secret....

I will write a book...of course.... ::) ::) may sign a copy for you if you are interested.....


huh?  :-?

you contradicted yourself in one easy line...  ;D ;D

....................

and why can fatties walk? - its not because they can't, its because they don't want to...

eat all fresh vegetables and fruits..

see my thread in the FOOD section...

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1404889749/all

Title: Re: Anorexia or obesity?
Post by ian on Dec 27th, 2014 at 3:06pm
if this was so Honky then we would not see marathon swimmers storing immense amounts of fat on their bodies which is burned as fuel during thier marathon.  I have long suspected the villain in modern diets is carbohydrates, not fat as we are lead to believe by some. I will come back to this and make another more extensive post later.

Title: Re: Anorexia or obesity?
Post by Dame Pansi on Dec 27th, 2014 at 3:54pm

ian wrote on Dec 27th, 2014 at 2:42pm:

Ex Dame Pansi wrote on Dec 27th, 2014 at 6:40am:
The only thing that makes us fat is consuming more kilojoules than we burn up.

wrong. You can consume as much protein as you like but the extra calories will not be stored as fat, they will be excreted through your kidneys.
Next myth!



Rubbish....you go on a low kj eating plan and you will lose weight, no doubt about it, even without exercise, with exercise you will lose weight more quickly.

Title: Re: Anorexia or obesity?
Post by Neferti on Dec 27th, 2014 at 4:31pm
I am naturally thin and have never needed to diet in my life.  Even when I gave up smoking, years ago, I didn't gain any weight.  I do not nibble between meals and I serve myself a "man-sized" meal but if I can't eat the entire t-bone or all the vegetables, I leave it as I STOP eating when my stomach says it is "full".

I rarely eat chocolate or cakes ... or fruit. I do NOT think about what I am going to eat UNTIL I AM HUNGRY. My mother was obese and at breakfast she was already thinking what she could have for lunch and dinner!

Also, I was told (or read) years ago that your stomach was about the size of your "fist" ... pile the plate with more food than that, approximately, and you are eating too much ... per meal.

Exercise is what the Medicos say you should do.  More people have hurt themselves "exercising" than they have sitting on the couch, eating.

Oh, and remember this. We will ALL DIE eventually. Do what you want to do, eat what you want to eat and exercise if you find it enjoyable .... especially as you get older. If you have always exercised, do not stop. Cease worrying about what the Medicos and others think. They are not God.  Live YOUR Life. Be Happy and die naturally.

Happy New Year!

Title: Re: Anorexia or obesity?
Post by ian on Dec 27th, 2014 at 11:32pm
The myth of calories in  calories out and why this does not sustain long term weight loss
and may even be detrimental to those seeking to conquer their own obesity.

We have all heard this at some stage right? Weight loss isnt rocket science, you just need to
consume less calories than you burn and you will inevitably lose weight, its all about will power,
fat people just have no will power. Heres the proof, the "experts" proclaim, no fat people came out
of the German concentration camps where they were all forced to consume minimal calories and burn
more than they consumed. We all know people who constantly struggle with their obesity, it may
even be us, people who are on diet after calorie restricting diet. They lose a few kilos, maybe
even slim right down but the weight goes right back on, sometimes within weeks , sometimes within
years, but go back on inevitably it does. The weight loss industry promoting these diets is worth
around a billion dollars a year in Australia alone and climbing every year, this is the financial proof
that these diets dont work, if these diets did sustain long term weight loss in the obese  then the
weight loss industry would be slowly losing money, the opposite is occurring, increasingly
desperate obese people are spending an increasing amount of money on these diets which just dont work
and obesity is increasing. The problem with consuming less calories than you burn is that we all dont live
in German concentration camps, food is all around us, freely available with no restrictions, there is no
one forcing us into slave labor at gunpoint and enforcing starvation conditions, it actually takes
an enormous amount of will power to consume less calories than you burn every day because you will always be hungry,
hunger for the majority of us is actually our bodies telling us we need to start consuming food, its a system that served
us well for half a million years us and still does under the right circumstances. So why, all of a sudden for the last
hundred years or so do some experts think our bodies hav e evolved to somehow develop a different way of doing things,
the answer is that they havent. Also What happens when we reach our ideal weight?
Do we continue to starve ourselves or do we then revert to our former eating habits? If the former, we slowly lose
weight until we die, if the latter we slowly (or quickly) put the weight right back on, so how do we then sustain our ideal weight?
This would involve exactly balancing calorie intake with calorie burn, this is of course, impossible. Which is why
the vast majority of people who lose large amounts of weight end up putting it back on, plus more.
There is also another problem with this theory, did ancient hunter gatherers use it? Of course they didnt and yet they
all managed to stay lean without the lifestyle illnesses prevalent in modern society, we know this because we have remnants
of ancient hunter gather groups living in current society which we are able to study. No wonder the diet industry is worth a
billion dollars a year in this country, they are selling a crock which not only doesnt work but which the so called experts
have convinced the public should work if only the had the will power. What a crock, huge money making crock.
In the next bit of this essay I will cover the myth of the link between obesity and sedentary lifestyle and how to make
dietary changes permanently to conquer obesity. I am prepared to share my accumulated knowledge with OZPOL readers but
any outright trolling or thread denigration and I wont post any more about this.

This article copyright me and may not be reproduced in its entirety.
 


Title: Re: Anorexia or obesity?
Post by UnSubRocky on Dec 28th, 2014 at 12:09am

Labor_Man wrote on Dec 14th, 2007 at 1:43am:
No offence, but I believe that every person has the will to lose weight if they so choose it. I was 100 Kilos for a few years, Then I started noticing that my weight was impeding my health/movement, and I was sweating like there was no tommorrow(not that that's related I don't think?)

But allthough it was hard, I didn't need a diet of sorts. I just walked a hell of alot and ate well, and not too much. Stayed away from fast food most of all. Now I'm 85(not much of an improvement) But I feel a heck of alot better physically/ emotionally.


I'm 123kg at the moment. I haven't been under 85kg since 2006. Being 85kgs, although not triathlete conditioned, is quite a bit better than 100kg. It has been a while since I have been under 115kgs. However, I find it easier to get around at 115 than at 128 (which I was in November). Don't knock being 100kgs, because I would settle for that now over 120kg+.

Title: Re: Anorexia or obesity?
Post by ian on Dec 28th, 2014 at 12:17am

UnSubRocky wrote on Dec 28th, 2014 at 12:09am:

Labor_Man wrote on Dec 14th, 2007 at 1:43am:
No offence, but I believe that every person has the will to lose weight if they so choose it. I was 100 Kilos for a few years, Then I started noticing that my weight was impeding my health/movement, and I was sweating like there was no tommorrow(not that that's related I don't think?)

But allthough it was hard, I didn't need a diet of sorts. I just walked a hell of alot and ate well, and not too much. Stayed away from fast food most of all. Now I'm 85(not much of an improvement) But I feel a heck of alot better physically/ emotionally.


I'm 123kg at the moment. I haven't been under 85kg since 2006. Being 85kgs, although not triathlete conditioned, is quite a bit better than 100kg. It has been a while since I have been under 115kgs. However, I find it easier to get around at 115 than at 128 (which I was in November). Don't knock being 100kgs, because I would settle for that now over 120kg+.

thank you for proving my point, bookmark this thread, it will be to your benefit.

Title: Re: Anorexia or obesity?
Post by UnSubRocky on Dec 28th, 2014 at 12:39am

cods wrote on Dec 27th, 2014 at 7:43am:

Ex Dame Pansi wrote on Dec 27th, 2014 at 6:40am:
The only thing that makes us fat is consuming more kilojoules than we burn up.



spot on..

we do not move enough.....how many fat people do you see walking or jogging....almost none..why.. because they cant.....


If you want to have a laugh, or a change of heart about your opinion, you can see me trying to jog along the highway at midnight some nights. We do try and lose the kilos. Just that it's difficult to look composed when we exercise without making ourselves exhausted. Even 30kgs ago, I had difficulty running around without having to stop after 100 meters. Years ago, I could run 5km without needing a rest. But that was 40kgs ago. Imagine how well I do running around with 120kg of bulk, trying to shed some of it? I actually feel fitter these days. But I know that I could shed that 40kgs and be a lot more active into my 40s... perhaps even my 50s.

Solutions to my weight problems include cutting down on sugary drinks. Drinking more water. Trying to burn off excess calories. Though it is going to be slow going. I want to be down to my ideal weight of 90kg within 2 months. It's actually doable. But then again, so is running a marathon in under 2 hours.

Title: Re: Anorexia or obesity?
Post by ian on Dec 28th, 2014 at 12:50am

UnSubRocky wrote on Dec 28th, 2014 at 12:39am:

cods wrote on Dec 27th, 2014 at 7:43am:

Ex Dame Pansi wrote on Dec 27th, 2014 at 6:40am:
The only thing that makes us fat is consuming more kilojoules than we burn up.



spot on..

we do not move enough.....how many fat people do you see walking or jogging....almost none..why.. because they cant.....


If you want to have a laugh, or a change of heart about your opinion, you can see me trying to jog along the highway at midnight some nights. We do try and lose the kilos. Just that it's difficult to look composed when we exercise without making ourselves exhausted. Even 30kgs ago, I had difficulty running around without having to stop after 100 meters. Years ago, I could run 5km without needing a rest. But that was 40kgs ago. Imagine how well I do running around with 120kg of bulk, trying to shed some of it? I actually feel fitter these days. But I know that I could shed that 40kgs and be a lot more active into my 40s... perhaps even my 50s.

Solutions to my weight problems include cutting down on sugary drinks. Drinking more water. Trying to burn off excess calories. Though it is going to be slow going. I want to be down to my ideal weight of 90kg within 2 months. It's actually doable. But then again, so is running a marathon in under 2 hours.
you dodnt need to cut down on the sugary drinks you need to stop them completely, and cut out anything with refined carbs in it. You can do all this without being hungry and without exercising, you will lose weight.

Title: Re: Anorexia or obesity?
Post by Dame Pansi on Dec 28th, 2014 at 5:47am

If you're overweight and change your eating habits into healthy foods and healthy proportions, more fruit and veg, have sugary sweets or drinks as a treat, not as part of your daily diet, you will lose weight and maintain a healthy weight for life.

When you reach your goal weight you can then maintain that weight by consuming the correct amount of kj for your body size and lifestyle. The more you move, the more you burn off, so your kj intake can be adjusted to your exercise.

It is fad diets and The Biggest Loser type programs that are not sustainable long term.

Title: Re: Anorexia or obesity?
Post by The_Barnacle_Oh_Yeah on Dec 28th, 2014 at 10:23am

ian wrote on Dec 27th, 2014 at 11:32pm:
The myth of calories in  calories out and why this does not sustain long term weight loss
and may even be detrimental to those seeking to conquer their own obesity.


It is no myth. It is a fact.
The article itself admits that the reason many people put all the weight back on is that they don't have the will power to keep to the diet.

The article is right when it states that the weight loss industry has a business model that relies on people failing. That's why all these novelty diets and detox diets are such a crock of shyte.
Once you get to your target weight you then adjust your intake of kilojoules to maintain that weight and make sure it is one that you can live with. You also have to accept that there will be times that you will feel hungry. The short sighted need to feel "full" all the time is fueling the obesity epidemic




Title: Re: Anorexia or obesity?
Post by ian on Dec 28th, 2014 at 11:04am

Ex Dame Pansi wrote on Dec 28th, 2014 at 5:47am:
If you're overweight and change your eating habits into healthy foods and healthy proportions, more fruit and veg, have sugary sweets or drinks as a treat, not as part of your daily diet, you will lose weight and maintain a healthy weight for life.

When you reach your goal weight you can then maintain that weight by consuming the correct amount of kj for your body size and lifestyle. The more you move, the more you burn off, so your kj intake can be adjusted to your exercise.

It is fad diets and The Biggest Loser type programs that are not sustainable long term.

you missed this bit of my article Patsi

Quote:
Also What happens when we reach our ideal weight?
Do we continue to starve ourselves or do we then revert to our former eating habits? If the former, we slowly lose
weight until we die, if the latter we slowly (or quickly) put the weight right back on, so how do we then sustain our ideal weight?
This would involve exactly balancing calorie intake with calorie burn, this is of course, impossible. Which is why
the vast majority of people who lose large amounts of weight end up putting it back on, plus more.

Losing the weight is possible, putting it back on easy, exactly balancing calories to maintain ideal weight , impossible. You arent balancing calories Patsi but I will cover that in the next bit to my article.

Title: Re: Anorexia or obesity?
Post by ian on Dec 28th, 2014 at 11:09am

The_Barnacle wrote on Dec 28th, 2014 at 10:23am:

ian wrote on Dec 27th, 2014 at 11:32pm:
The myth of calories in  calories out and why this does not sustain long term weight loss
and may even be detrimental to those seeking to conquer their own obesity.


It is no myth. It is a fact.
The article itself admits that the reason many people put all the weight back on is that they don't have the will power to keep to the diet.

The article is right when it states that the weight loss industry has a business model that relies on people failing. That's why all these novelty diets and detox diets are such a crock of shyte.
Once you get to your target weight you then adjust your intake of kilojoules to maintain that weight and make sure it is one that you can live with. You also have to accept that there will be times that you will feel hungry. The short sighted need to feel "full" all the time is fueling the obesity epidemic

I wrote the article based on my own research into health and nutrition as an athlete over 3 decades. You talk about novelty diets but most of these actually depend on rigorously following the calorie in/ out principle which you maintain works but also say doesnt work.  How can we keep saying something works when patently it doesnt? if it did then the obese on these diets wouldnt gain the weight back. I will post another bit to my article hopefully tonight.

Title: Re: Anorexia or obesity?
Post by UnSubRocky on Dec 29th, 2014 at 1:21am

The_Barnacle wrote on Dec 28th, 2014 at 10:23am:

ian wrote on Dec 27th, 2014 at 11:32pm:
The myth of calories in  calories out and why this does not sustain long term weight loss
and may even be detrimental to those seeking to conquer their own obesity.


It is no myth. It is a fact.
The article itself admits that the reason many people put all the weight back on is that they don't have the will power to keep to the diet.

The article is right when it states that the weight loss industry has a business model that relies on people failing. That's why all these novelty diets and detox diets are such a crock of shyte.
Once you get to your target weight you then adjust your intake of kilojoules to maintain that weight and make sure it is one that you can live with. You also have to accept that there will be times that you will feel hungry. The short sighted need to feel "full" all the time is fueling the obesity epidemic


Something that you may have missed, that I think ian is trying to tell us, is about our fat cells. Not sure if he was trying to get us to think about this:

When fat enters our body, it is either broken down/burned up or stored. Issue being that when the fat gets stored, it fills the already there fat cells with fat. But as you get older, the fat cells are constantly being replenished and drained, and these cells get stretched. It means that we can store more fat in those cells, and those cells start to multiply. Ergo, you are having to expand your waistlines to accommodate these growing and multiplying fat cells, which leads to more skin on your body, as the skins gets stretched. Then being overweight takes over, that might lead to obesity if nothing is done to fix the weight issues.

After a long period of time (which might include being overweight for over a year, at least) your body is carrying around an abundant fat content. Eating smaller proportions might help in the weight loss, but you have to be strategic about how you lose the weight. I found that losing the first 5kg from a 128kg frame had lead me to chest pains, loss of clear vision, dizziness, and a desire to eat whatever I could to avoid the hunger pains. It's that part of the weight loss that has me stumped. But I realise that I can "tough it out" by eating healthy and trying to eat only when I am hungry. Plus, I don't need to eat until I don't feel hungry. You should eat only what you need to stop the hunger, and not to feel full.

When the weight starts falling off, the issue of empty fat cells becomes a subconscious problem. Whilst the issue of stretched skin becomes a conscious problem. The only solution that comes to mind is to let the skin hang loose, and the body will right itself in time.

But if you give up on your diet, your body will revert to refilling those fat cells, and you are just going to remake that extra layer of skin that weighs you down.

Title: Re: Anorexia or obesity?
Post by Honky on Dec 29th, 2014 at 9:02am
The problem with the claroies in/calories out equation is that not every molecule you eat is broken down and it's energy released.  Those lipitor tablets work on this same principle - making you poo out fat rather than releasing the energy within.

Title: Re: Anorexia or obesity?
Post by ColdFact on Dec 29th, 2014 at 9:48am

ian wrote on Dec 26th, 2014 at 4:29pm:
the only thing which makes us fat are carbohydrates, even exercise isnt strictly neccassary to control weight.


Yes, it's a simple message that doesn't really seem to get through.  Sugar, contained in carbs, is of course the enemy.



Title: Re: Anorexia or obesity?
Post by ian on Dec 29th, 2014 at 11:33am

UnSubRocky wrote on Dec 29th, 2014 at 1:21am:

The_Barnacle wrote on Dec 28th, 2014 at 10:23am:

ian wrote on Dec 27th, 2014 at 11:32pm:
The myth of calories in  calories out and why this does not sustain long term weight loss
and may even be detrimental to those seeking to conquer their own obesity.


It is no myth. It is a fact.
The article itself admits that the reason many people put all the weight back on is that they don't have the will power to keep to the diet.

The article is right when it states that the weight loss industry has a business model that relies on people failing. That's why all these novelty diets and detox diets are such a crock of shyte.
Once you get to your target weight you then adjust your intake of kilojoules to maintain that weight and make sure it is one that you can live with. You also have to accept that there will be times that you will feel hungry. The short sighted need to feel "full" all the time is fueling the obesity epidemic


Something that you may have missed, that I think ian is trying to tell us, is about our fat cells. Not sure if he was trying to get us to think about this:

When fat enters our body, it is either broken down/burned up or stored. Issue being that when the fat gets stored, it fills the already there fat cells with fat. But as you get older, the fat cells are constantly being replenished and drained, and these cells get stretched. It means that we can store more fat in those cells, and those cells start to multiply. Ergo, you are having to expand your waistlines to accommodate these growing and multiplying fat cells, which leads to more skin on your body, as the skins gets stretched. Then being overweight takes over, that might lead to obesity if nothing is done to fix the weight issues.

After a long period of time (which might include being overweight for over a year, at least) your body is carrying around an abundant fat content. Eating smaller proportions might help in the weight loss, but you have to be strategic about how you lose the weight. I found that losing the first 5kg from a 128kg frame had lead me to chest pains, loss of clear vision, dizziness, and a desire to eat whatever I could to avoid the hunger pains. It's that part of the weight loss that has me stumped. But I realise that I can "tough it out" by eating healthy and trying to eat only when I am hungry. Plus, I don't need to eat until I don't feel hungry. You should eat only what you need to stop the hunger, and not to feel full.

When the weight starts falling off, the issue of empty fat cells becomes a subconscious problem. Whilst the issue of stretched skin becomes a conscious problem. The only solution that comes to mind is to let the skin hang loose, and the body will right itself in time.

But if you give up on your diet, your body will revert to refilling those fat cells, and you are just going to remake that extra layer of skin that weighs you down.

Sorry, not correct.  I will try and post the next bit of my article tonight.

Title: Re: Anorexia or obesity?
Post by ian on Dec 29th, 2014 at 8:02pm
Part 2
Why eating fat doesnt make you fat 

Fat makes you Fat right? How many times we have all heard this, the shelves at our supermarkets are full of expensive low fat foods with the heart foundation tick. Most of you beleive it too without knowing why, theres only one problem, not only does avoiding fats in foods not keep us lean but it helps keep us obese. Lets try this, substitute the word fat for lean and try again. Eating lean makes you fat. Im sure if you heard anyone say this and attempt to propogate it as fact you would question the validity of the statement. Yet we swallow the absurdity of the fat makes you fat statement without question and its mostly about how we emotionally process the word fat itself. To fully understand how to sustain long term  weight loss we need to first understand that fat stored on the body and fats consumed as food are 2 different things.
not only is fat the preferred energy source for your body but eating fats instead of carbohydrate helps keep us lean. We only need to look at hunter gatherer societies to see the validity of this, even societies which subsisted mainly on fats and proteins never knew obesity, the evidence is before our eyes yet we still dont believe it. The onset of mass obesity in Australian Aboriginals didnt coincide with the availibility of fats and proteins, this is what they lived on before white settlement. Neither did mass obesity in native Americans coincide with the availibility of fats. The onset of obesity in the remnants of  these hunter gatherer populations who lived and ate much the same as our common ancestors for millions of years tell the same
story all over the world, the onset of mass obesity directly conincided with the availibilty of refined carbohydrate. We even have studies which show that as American trading posts were set up in native areas tribe after tribe became obese after contact. Fat is the preferred energy source our bodies require and the science also supports this, in any endurance event your body will only utilise carbohydrates for the first 20 minutes or so, then its on to fat afterwards, proteins will only be used if their are no fats available. Marathon athletes know this, thats why they store fat before endurance events, marathon runners carbo load before races, or so they think, unused carbs will be stored as fat. This gives these very lean athletes a store of fat they  otherwise would not have had and without which they would not be able to complete the event. Marathon swimmers deliberately store large amounts of fat on thier bodies to be used as fuel during the event, the science has shown time and time again that fats are the human bodies preferred energy source. The human body evolved over millions of years to process and use fats as an
energy source, not refined carbohydrates. There is zero scientific evidence to suggest that consumption of dietary fats is directly linked to obesity.
In the next bit I will show how excercise is not necassary to sustain long term weight loss and how to avoid yo yo dieting.

Title: Re: Anorexia or obesity?
Post by Honky on Dec 29th, 2014 at 8:15pm

ian wrote on Dec 29th, 2014 at 8:02pm:
Fat is the preferred energy source our bodies require and the science also supports this, in any endurance event your body will only utilise carbohydrates for the first 20 minutes or so, then its on to fat afterwards,



The fact that it's the first 20 minutes then onto fat would suggest fat isn't the preferred energy source. 


Title: Re: Anorexia or obesity?
Post by ian on Dec 29th, 2014 at 8:21pm
if you run a 3 hour marathon Honky your body will spend 2 1/2 hours burning fat, this will happen however much carbohydrate you consume. If your body has no carbohydrate it will immediately switch to burning fat. Also you are missing the bit about our evolutionary history, naturally occurring carbohydrates were extremely rare in our ancestors diets, we spent millions of years without them, they only appeared in our diets roughly 5000 years ago, refined sugars around 100 years ago.

Title: Re: Anorexia or obesity?
Post by Honky on Dec 29th, 2014 at 8:29pm

Quote:
If your body has no carbohydrate it will immediately switch to burning fat.


Which also suggests fat isn't the preferred energy source.

Title: Re: Anorexia or obesity?
Post by ian on Dec 29th, 2014 at 8:32pm
How so? Our ancestors lived without carbohydrates for millions of years, what were they using as an energy source?

Title: Re: Anorexia or obesity?
Post by Honky on Dec 29th, 2014 at 9:13pm
Did they? Hunter gatherers didn't just live off hunting.  And while their diets were likely much lighter on the carbs than today, it wasn't non existent.  I think you've found your discrepancy.

I don't disagree with the bottom line - I've been smashing a high fat diet for years, but your reasoning, if there is any, is all over the place.  Your own words admit carbs are the bodies preferred energy source, so I'm not really sure what you're arguing about or against.  The ADP/ATP mechanism and glycolysis have been a basic foundation of sports science for decades - it's not a secret that they are only used for relatively short bursts of activity. 

Title: Re: Anorexia or obesity?
Post by freediver on Dec 29th, 2014 at 9:20pm
Perhaps instead of saying "preferred energy source", think "gets rids of them ASAP".

Title: Re: Anorexia or obesity?
Post by ian on Dec 29th, 2014 at 9:23pm
yes. Serious farming which allowed widespread consumption of carbohydrate rich foods such as wheat and rice really only started around 10,000 years ago, Refined carbohydrate such as sugar appeared widely in modern diets around 100 years ago. Im generalising, of course there were exceptions.

Title: Re: Anorexia or obesity?
Post by ian on Dec 29th, 2014 at 9:26pm

... wrote on Dec 29th, 2014 at 9:13pm:
Did they? Hunter gatherers didn't just live off hunting.  And while their diets were likely much lighter on the carbs than today, it wasn't non existent.  I think you've found your discrepancy.
Stop the semantics, i didnt state non existent, I stated extremely rare.


Quote:
Your own words admit carbs are the bodies preferred energy source,
Ive stated that nowhere. I think you need glasses.
Quote:
The ADP/ATP mechanism has been a basic foundation of sports science for decades - it's not a secret that it is only used for relatively short bursts of activity.
so whats your point if you agree?

Title: Re: Anorexia or obesity?
Post by freediver on Dec 29th, 2014 at 9:29pm
What about sweet potatoes, yams etc etc?

Title: Re: Anorexia or obesity?
Post by Honky on Dec 29th, 2014 at 9:32pm

ian wrote on Dec 29th, 2014 at 9:26pm:

... wrote on Dec 29th, 2014 at 9:13pm:
Did they? Hunter gatherers didn't just live off hunting.  And while their diets were likely much lighter on the carbs than today, it wasn't non existent.  I think you've found your discrepancy.
Stop the semantics



It's not semnatics, you've completely overlooked the "gatherer" part.


Quote:
Your own words admit carbs are the bodies preferred energy source,
Ive stated that nowhere. I think you need glasses.


Quote:
If your body has no carbohydrate it will immediately switch to burning fat.

in any endurance event your body will only utilise carbohydrates for the first 20 minutes or so, then its on to fat afterwards,


First = carbs
Second = fat. 

Your words.  IF carbs are first used, and by your own words, it is, it means they are the preferred source, by definition.  Why can you not see the contradiction? 


Quote:
The ADP/ATP mechanism has been a basic foundation of sports science for decades - it's not a secret that it is only used for relatively short bursts of activity.
so whats your point if you agree?
[/quote]

Because you're falling into the same trap as every other diet dickhead - trying to fit everything into a monocausal explanation.

Diet "guru" #1 - "It's not x it's y"
Diet "guru" #2 "it's not y, it's x"

How about it's both, (and likely z as well)? 


Title: Re: Anorexia or obesity?
Post by ian on Dec 29th, 2014 at 9:34pm

freediver wrote on Dec 29th, 2014 at 9:29pm:
What about sweet potatoes, yams etc etc?
sure, full of carbs, but not the same type as in grains, the body processes them differently. Note in  my article i was referring to refined carbs, not all carbs. Honky made the same mistake.

Title: Re: Anorexia or obesity?
Post by ian on Dec 29th, 2014 at 9:36pm

... wrote on Dec 29th, 2014 at 9:32pm:

Because you're falling into the same trap as every other diet dickhead - trying to fit everything into a monocausal explanation.

Diet "guru" #1 - "It's not x it's y"
Diet "guru" #2 "it's not y, it's x"

How about it's both, (and likely z as well)? 
Im not sure why you think because the body uses carbs first that this means they are the preferred energy source, to my way of thinking the opposite could be true.

Title: Re: Anorexia or obesity?
Post by ian on Dec 29th, 2014 at 9:41pm

... wrote on Dec 29th, 2014 at 9:32pm:
[
It's not semnatics, you've completely overlooked the "gatherer" part.
no, you completely overlooked the refined carbs part



Title: Re: Anorexia or obesity?
Post by Honky on Dec 29th, 2014 at 9:46pm

ian wrote on Dec 29th, 2014 at 9:41pm:

... wrote on Dec 29th, 2014 at 9:32pm:
[
It's not semnatics, you've completely overlooked the "gatherer" part.
no, you completely overlooked the refined carbs part



The word "refined" didn't appear in your earlier posts. 


ian wrote on Dec 29th, 2014 at 9:36pm:

... wrote on Dec 29th, 2014 at 9:32pm:

Because you're falling into the same trap as every other diet dickhead - trying to fit everything into a monocausal explanation.

Diet "guru" #1 - "It's not x it's y"
Diet "guru" #2 "it's not y, it's x"

How about it's both, (and likely z as well)? 
Im not sure why you think because the body uses carbs first that this means they are the preferred energy source, to my way of thinking the opposite could be true.



Because that's the definition of the word.   :o

There's a hint in the spelling of the word itself PREfer.

Title: Re: Anorexia or obesity?
Post by ian on Dec 29th, 2014 at 9:47pm
You are right Honky, I didnt proof read it. Shoot me. Prefer doesnt mean to use something first.

Title: Re: Anorexia or obesity?
Post by Honky on Dec 29th, 2014 at 9:50pm
forgiven.

Namaste.

Title: Re: Anorexia or obesity?
Post by ian on Dec 29th, 2014 at 9:54pm
Do you use the calorie in/out method to stay lean Honky? What keeps you at your weight.? Presuming as an athlete you are not obese.

Title: Re: Anorexia or obesity?
Post by Honky on Dec 29th, 2014 at 10:17pm
I have never counted calories and never will, I go almost entirely by feel

I've been running an unofficial experiment with 20 odd years of trial and error, and what going by feel has led me to is a preference for fat and protein.  That said, someone following the exact same diet as me would probably get fat.  What I do works for me, but there's just too many variables for a once size fits all approach.  A paleo diet is OK in theory, and is fairly similar to what I go for, but diets varied widely around the world, so "our" ancestors didn't all eat the same things, so different people are going to be suited to different things.  Anytime you try to make everyone/everything conform to one golden rule, you're going to get exceptions that confound it, and that's the problem with nutritional science.

I'm convinced people must instinctively know what to eat and what not to - even dogs do - but they're overthinking it, and getting nowhere.  Just look at all the nice people who claim "chocolate is good for you" - they can't possibly believe it, but they seem to think their own bodies will react differently if they know of a study that could conceivably support such a notion in a backhanded way. 

Coincidentally the latest entry on a blog I follow deals with bacon - according to the "conventional wisdom" one of the worst possible foods one could eat, but one that I can't get enough of.

http://chaosandpain.blogspot.com.au/2014/12/bacon-superfood-or-hipster-bullshit.html?zx=15701fb187f0f850

Title: Re: Anorexia or obesity?
Post by ian on Dec 29th, 2014 at 11:05pm
There is one thing in common which our ancestors did not eat though unitil 10,00 years ago, refined carbs. There is also one common link to obesity wherever you go around the world, sugar. Regardless, for the rest of it you pretty much hit the nail on the head, Im glad you didnt say exercise keeps you lean, thats another myth Im going to bust tomorrow.

Title: Re: Anorexia or obesity?
Post by UnSubRocky on Dec 30th, 2014 at 12:44am

... wrote on Dec 29th, 2014 at 8:15pm:

ian wrote on Dec 29th, 2014 at 8:02pm:
Fat is the preferred energy source our bodies require and the science also supports this, in any endurance event your body will only utilise carbohydrates for the first 20 minutes or so, then its on to fat afterwards,



The fact that it's the first 20 minutes then onto fat would suggest fat isn't the preferred energy source.


It's actually your muscles that the body uses as a source of energy during starvation. The body does go after the fat cells as a source of energy, but it will go after your muscles first to a certain extent. Fat cells may become a reserve energy source for the muscles, to avoid muscular atrophy.

Title: Re: Anorexia or obesity?
Post by ian on Dec 30th, 2014 at 12:49am

UnSubRocky wrote on Dec 30th, 2014 at 12:44am:

... wrote on Dec 29th, 2014 at 8:15pm:

ian wrote on Dec 29th, 2014 at 8:02pm:
Fat is the preferred energy source our bodies require and the science also supports this, in any endurance event your body will only utilise carbohydrates for the first 20 minutes or so, then its on to fat afterwards,



The fact that it's the first 20 minutes then onto fat would suggest fat isn't the preferred energy source.


It's actually your muscles that the body uses as a source of energy during starvation. The body does go after the fat cells as a source of energy, but it will go after your muscles first to a certain extent. Fat cells may become a reserve energy source for the muscles, to avoid muscular atrophy.
incorrect. The body only cannibalises itself as a last resort. Any fat will always be used first.

Title: Re: Anorexia or obesity?
Post by AiA on Dec 30th, 2014 at 1:01am

ian wrote on Dec 29th, 2014 at 11:05pm:
There is one thing in common which our ancestors did not eat though unitil 10,00 years ago, refined carbs. There is also one common link to obesity wherever you go around the world, sugar. Regardless, for the rest of it you pretty much hit the nail on the head, Im glad you didnt say exercise keeps you lean, thats another myth Im going to bust tomorrow.


Absolutely. Stay away from much of the modern diet including refined carbs.  Exercise only can do so much. I am as lean and muscular as I have ever been and I attribute it to intermittent fasting, a *narrow* diet, and brief yet intense exercise.

Title: Re: Anorexia or obesity?
Post by AiA on Dec 30th, 2014 at 1:01am

UnSubRocky wrote on Dec 30th, 2014 at 12:44am:

... wrote on Dec 29th, 2014 at 8:15pm:

ian wrote on Dec 29th, 2014 at 8:02pm:
Fat is the preferred energy source our bodies require and the science also supports this, in any endurance event your body will only utilise carbohydrates for the first 20 minutes or so, then its on to fat afterwards,



The fact that it's the first 20 minutes then onto fat would suggest fat isn't the preferred energy source.


It's actually your muscles that the body uses as a source of energy during starvation. The body does go after the fat cells as a source of energy, but it will go after your muscles first to a certain extent. Fat cells may become a reserve energy source for the muscles, to avoid muscular atrophy.


a teaspoon of BCAA will remedy that.

Title: Re: Anorexia or obesity?
Post by AiA on Dec 30th, 2014 at 1:04am

ian wrote on Dec 30th, 2014 at 12:49am:

UnSubRocky wrote on Dec 30th, 2014 at 12:44am:

... wrote on Dec 29th, 2014 at 8:15pm:

ian wrote on Dec 29th, 2014 at 8:02pm:
Fat is the preferred energy source our bodies require and the science also supports this, in any endurance event your body will only utilise carbohydrates for the first 20 minutes or so, then its on to fat afterwards,



The fact that it's the first 20 minutes then onto fat would suggest fat isn't the preferred energy source.


It's actually your muscles that the body uses as a source of energy during starvation. The body does go after the fat cells as a source of energy, but it will go after your muscles first to a certain extent. Fat cells may become a reserve energy source for the muscles, to avoid muscular atrophy.
incorrect. The body only cannibalises itself as a last resort. Any fat will always be used first.


what happens first during fasting is autophagy.  that is desirable. the body also burns fat.  again, desirable. there could be muscle loss while exercising while fasted - clearly not desirable -  but as I mentioned a little BCAA will fix that. 

Title: Re: Anorexia or obesity?
Post by UnSubRocky on Dec 30th, 2014 at 1:05am
Try going on a starvation diet, after being overweight for many years. You will find that after a month, your body will be weaker, and you won't be able to lift as much as you could overweight. Yes, your fat cells will be much less filled. But you will find that your muscle tone, the muscle that had to carry around that extra fat/weight is much less, because your body is using the muscle as *another* source of energy, along with the less need for those muscles.

I was 60kg at 18 years of age. Eating subway, and KFC and McDonalds to increase my weight didn't put on the muscle until later exercise. The fatness in my body was just too high, and I actually look thinner at 120kg than I did at 106kg.

Title: Re: Anorexia or obesity?
Post by AiA on Dec 30th, 2014 at 1:19am

UnSubRocky wrote on Dec 30th, 2014 at 1:05am:
Try going on a starvation diet, after being overweight for many years. You will find that after a month, your body will be weaker, and you won't be able to lift as much as you could overweight. Yes, your fat cells will be much less filled. But you will find that your muscle tone, the muscle that had to carry around that extra fat/weight is much less, because your body is using the muscle as *another* source of energy, along with the less need for those muscles.

I was 60kg at 18 years of age. Eating subway, and KFC and McDonalds to increase my weight didn't put on the muscle until later exercise. The fatness in my body was just too high, and I actually look thinner at 120kg than I did at 106kg.


what is a "starvation diet?" 

Title: Re: Anorexia or obesity?
Post by ian on Dec 30th, 2014 at 1:21am
yes , you are correct. Heres the thing, you dont need to go on a starvation diet to sustain weight loss. In
fact thats the opposite of what you should be doing to conquer obesity. You dont even need to exercise.

Title: Re: Anorexia or obesity?
Post by ian on Dec 30th, 2014 at 1:23am

AiA wrote on Dec 30th, 2014 at 1:19am:

UnSubRocky wrote on Dec 30th, 2014 at 1:05am:
Try going on a starvation diet, after being overweight for many years. You will find that after a month, your body will be weaker, and you won't be able to lift as much as you could overweight. Yes, your fat cells will be much less filled. But you will find that your muscle tone, the muscle that had to carry around that extra fat/weight is much less, because your body is using the muscle as *another* source of energy, along with the less need for those muscles.

I was 60kg at 18 years of age. Eating subway, and KFC and McDonalds to increase my weight didn't put on the muscle until later exercise. The fatness in my body was just too high, and I actually look thinner at 120kg than I did at 106kg.


what is a "starvation diet?" 
any diet in which the total calories burned outnumber the amount consumed.

Title: Re: Anorexia or obesity?
Post by AiA on Dec 30th, 2014 at 1:25am
are you using "starvation diet" to mean "water fasting?" 

Title: Re: Anorexia or obesity?
Post by AiA on Dec 30th, 2014 at 1:26am
it is important to trigger autophagy, not starvation.

Title: Re: Anorexia or obesity?
Post by UnSubRocky on Dec 30th, 2014 at 1:29am

AiA wrote on Dec 30th, 2014 at 1:19am:
what is a "starvation diet?"


A diet consisting of lower calories in than you do calories out.

Title: Re: Anorexia or obesity?
Post by AiA on Dec 30th, 2014 at 1:35am

UnSubRocky wrote on Dec 30th, 2014 at 1:29am:

AiA wrote on Dec 30th, 2014 at 1:19am:
what is a "starvation diet?"


A diet consisting of lower calories in than you do calories out.


Hmm ... have you tried "intermittent fasting?"  It promotes autophagy, fat loss, and other good things.

Title: Re: Anorexia or obesity?
Post by UnSubRocky on Dec 30th, 2014 at 1:51am

AiA wrote on Dec 30th, 2014 at 1:35am:

UnSubRocky wrote on Dec 30th, 2014 at 1:29am:

AiA wrote on Dec 30th, 2014 at 1:19am:
what is a "starvation diet?"


A diet consisting of lower calories in than you do calories out.


Hmm ... have you tried "intermittent fasting?"  It promotes autophagy, fat loss, and other good things.


Partially. I eat a small meal/sandwich before a 4 hour shift. Then during my break, I'll eat another small meal before I do the other part of my 4 hour shift. I have gone bike riding to the shops, and not eaten anything for a few hours. Then the hunger pangs take over, and I have to ride home. One time, I just about embarrassingly fell off my bike, because the shakes were taking effect. Other times, I make it home and have to raid the fridge for anything I can quickly consume. But that was back in the day when I would fast in that unorthodox way, and actually had some success with weight loss.

Title: Re: Anorexia or obesity?
Post by AiA on Dec 30th, 2014 at 2:00am

UnSubRocky wrote on Dec 30th, 2014 at 1:51am:

AiA wrote on Dec 30th, 2014 at 1:35am:

UnSubRocky wrote on Dec 30th, 2014 at 1:29am:

AiA wrote on Dec 30th, 2014 at 1:19am:
what is a "starvation diet?"


A diet consisting of lower calories in than you do calories out.


Hmm ... have you tried "intermittent fasting?"  It promotes autophagy, fat loss, and other good things.


Partially. I eat a small meal/sandwich before a 4 hour shift. Then during my break, I'll eat another small meal before I do the other part of my 4 hour shift. I have gone bike riding to the shops, and not eaten anything for a few hours. Then the hunger pangs take over, and I have to ride home. One time, I just about embarrassingly fell off my bike, because the shakes were taking effect. Other times, I make it home and have to raid the fridge for anything I can quickly consume. But that was back in the day when I would fast in that unorthodox way, and actually had some success with weight loss.


Art deVany is a big proponent of intermittent fasting.  Read his stuff.  There is also a website called Free the Animal.  If you can wade through the politics, etc it is a gold mine.  Search for resistant starch there and read those posts.

Title: Re: Anorexia or obesity?
Post by Dame Pansi on Dec 30th, 2014 at 5:41am

Intermittent fasting seems to be the rage these days, usually 5 and 2. Eat normal (not pigging out) for five days then cut your kj intake right down for two days. I just don't think it's good for your body, but everyone to their own. I know people that do it and swear by it, my doctor hands out brochures to his patients, so he mustn't think it's unhealthy.

Title: Re: Anorexia or obesity?
Post by AiA on Dec 30th, 2014 at 5:46am

Ex Dame Pansi wrote on Dec 30th, 2014 at 5:41am:
Intermittent fasting seems to be the rage these days, usually 5 and 2. Eat normal (not pigging out) for five days then cut your kj intake right down for two days. I just don't think it's good for your body, but everyone to their own. I know people that do it and swear by it, my doctor hands out brochures to his patients, so he mustn't think it's unhealthy.


Yeah, that 5 - 2 cadence seems to be popular but I have never tried it.  I just usually only eat one meal (dinner) T-F and don't eat at all on Mondays and on the weekends eat two meals.  Works for me.  Not sure why you would think it unhealthy however. 

Title: Re: Anorexia or obesity?
Post by Annie Anthrax on Dec 30th, 2014 at 9:57am
We do 36 hour 5:2 fasting.

Title: Re: Anorexia or obesity?
Post by freediver on Dec 30th, 2014 at 10:05am
Many religions have some kind of fasting incorporated into them, so it is hardly a new fad.

Title: Re: Anorexia or obesity?
Post by ian on Dec 30th, 2014 at 10:07am
it has its benefits but is not a one size fits all. Athletes cant do it without affecting performance and its dangerous for the obese. Its a way of maintaining weight but not a very good or healthy one. The Nazis had good success with it though. Any semi starvation diet is unhealthy. why on earth would anyone adopt a diet which starves the body of nutrients? Despite this, depriving the body of calories for many people will result in the body conserving calories which will hinder those attempting to lose weight.

Title: Re: Anorexia or obesity?
Post by Annie Anthrax on Dec 30th, 2014 at 10:55am

ian wrote on Dec 30th, 2014 at 10:07am:
it has its benefits but is not a one size fits all. Athletes cant do it without affecting performance and its dangerous for the obese. Its a way of maintaining weight but not a very good or healthy one. The Nazis had good success with it though. Any semi starvation diet is unhealthy. why on earth would anyone adopt a diet which starves the body of nutrients? Despite this, depriving the body of calories for many people will result in the body conserving calories which will hinder those attempting to lose weight.


We don't do it for weight loss. On non-fasting days  I eat a modified strict version of Atkins induction to control mild epilepsy without medication by maintaining ketosis. I haven't had any seizure activity in over 6 months.

Title: Re: Anorexia or obesity?
Post by Honky on Dec 30th, 2014 at 11:18am

Annie Anthrax wrote on Dec 30th, 2014 at 10:55am:

ian wrote on Dec 30th, 2014 at 10:07am:
it has its benefits but is not a one size fits all. Athletes cant do it without affecting performance and its dangerous for the obese. Its a way of maintaining weight but not a very good or healthy one. The Nazis had good success with it though. Any semi starvation diet is unhealthy. why on earth would anyone adopt a diet which starves the body of nutrients? Despite this, depriving the body of calories for many people will result in the body conserving calories which will hinder those attempting to lose weight.


We don't do it for weight loss. On non-fasting days  I eat a modified strict version of Atkins induction to control mild epilepsy without medication by maintaining ketosis. I haven't had any seizure activity in over 6 months.



Title: Re: Anorexia or obesity?
Post by The Grappler (50 shades of) on Dec 30th, 2014 at 1:33pm
I've never been one to put on weight.... a starved rat as a kid... fit and running up to eighteen hours a day and going flat out for years......  still toting up at 87kg and 6'1" at 65.

Wouldn't know the first thing about dieting or needing to...

Title: Re: Anorexia or obesity?
Post by Lord Herbert on Dec 30th, 2014 at 1:49pm

ian wrote on Dec 26th, 2014 at 4:29pm:
the only thing which makes us fat are carbohydrates, even exercise isnt strictly neccassary to control weight.


Correct.

Who laughs more: Fat people or skinny people?

Exactly.

It's fat people who shudder with laughter most of the day, while the anorexic ones stand around looking like morgue attendants.

I'm half way to becoming fat - which is my ultimate goal. As I find myself laughing a little more each day, I know my strict regimen of fast food and lack of exercise is paying off.

I've even noticed myself getting envious glances in the street as I heave my increasing bulk down the road towards the local MacDonalds for another Big Mac with fries.

One of the secrets to a happy life is not to worry about your weight. Being comfortable within yourself is what really matters, and to hell with the fad diets and the gays down at the gym trying to look good for one another.

And incidentally, the poor suckers who I used to see pounding the pavements in their lunch break all those 30 years ago are today semi-cripples from all sorts of joint and compacted vertebrae problems ~ and I knew at the time this would be their eventual fate.

Faddish wankers who today are reaping the reward for their trendy nonsense.





Title: Re: Anorexia or obesity?
Post by Annie Anthrax on Dec 30th, 2014 at 1:57pm

... wrote on Dec 30th, 2014 at 11:18am:

Annie Anthrax wrote on Dec 30th, 2014 at 10:55am:

ian wrote on Dec 30th, 2014 at 10:07am:
it has its benefits but is not a one size fits all. Athletes cant do it without affecting performance and its dangerous for the obese. Its a way of maintaining weight but not a very good or healthy one. The Nazis had good success with it though. Any semi starvation diet is unhealthy. why on earth would anyone adopt a diet which starves the body of nutrients? Despite this, depriving the body of calories for many people will result in the body conserving calories which will hinder those attempting to lose weight.


We don't do it for weight loss. On non-fasting days  I eat a modified strict version of Atkins induction to control mild epilepsy without medication by maintaining ketosis. I haven't had any seizure activity in over 6 months.




I trust you're being genuinely supportive.

Title: Re: Anorexia or obesity?
Post by Neferti on Dec 30th, 2014 at 2:24pm
You should eat less and it is normal to also sleep less as you age.  One should not eat more or sleep more after retirement.  :P

Jogging is bad for your health/bones/hips and feet at any age and should not be done. Walking is fine.

Fruit is full of  "natural" sugar and should be avoided in large quantities. Veggies are fine, especially the green ones.

One reason the Americans are so obese and Australia is following suit, is because of the introduction of No (or low) Fat/No Carbohydrates in their food .... replaced by corn syrup.   I read that if you check the container of, say, yoghurt that states is is 95% fat free you check the sugar content and it states it is 28g divide that by 4 and you have 7 teaspoons of sugar.

No wonder everyone is getting fatter ....  :D



Title: Re: Anorexia or obesity?
Post by ian on Dec 30th, 2014 at 2:43pm

Annie Anthrax wrote on Dec 30th, 2014 at 10:55am:

ian wrote on Dec 30th, 2014 at 10:07am:
it has its benefits but is not a one size fits all. Athletes cant do it without affecting performance and its dangerous for the obese. Its a way of maintaining weight but not a very good or healthy one. The Nazis had good success with it though. Any semi starvation diet is unhealthy. why on earth would anyone adopt a diet which starves the body of nutrients? Despite this, depriving the body of calories for many people will result in the body conserving calories which will hinder those attempting to lose weight.


We don't do it for weight loss. On non-fasting days  I eat a modified strict version of Atkins induction to control mild epilepsy without medication by maintaining ketosis. I haven't had any seizure activity in over 6 months.

well done, it works for you so good. Unfortunately we are seeing this fasting method being marketed by the weight loss industry as a way for the obese to sustain weight loss. What I point out is that most people already fast every night , thats why the first meal of the day is called break fast.

Title: Re: Anorexia or obesity?
Post by ian on Dec 30th, 2014 at 2:47pm

Neferti wrote on Dec 30th, 2014 at 2:24pm:
You should eat less and it is normal to also sleep less as you age.  One should not eat more or sleep more after retirement.  :P

Jogging is bad for your health/bones/hips and feet at any age and should not be done. Walking is fine.

Fruit is full of  "natural" sugar and should be avoided in large quantities. Veggies are fine, especially the green ones.

One reason the Americans are so obese and Australia is following suit, is because of the introduction of No (or low) Fat/No Carbohydrates in their food .... replaced by corn syrup.   I read that if you check the container of, say, yoghurt that states is is 95% fat free you check the sugar content and it states it is 28g divide that by 4 and you have 7 teaspoons of sugar.

No wonder everyone is getting fatter ....  :D
Yes, I agree, lot of people getting sucked in by the fat free nonsense. Its a marketing trick based on nothing more than the emotional connection to the word "fat" in peoples minds in my opinion. If they marketed these foods as "lipids free"  which has the same meaning they wouldnt sell any of it.

Title: Re: Anorexia or obesity?
Post by cods on Dec 30th, 2014 at 2:48pm

Neferti wrote on Dec 30th, 2014 at 2:24pm:
You should eat less and it is normal to also sleep less as you age.  One should not eat more or sleep more after retirement.  :P

Jogging is bad for your health/bones/hips and feet at any age and should not be done. Walking is fine.


SO FEW OUT THERE DOING EITHER I FIND.. INCLUDING ME..



Fruit is full of  "natural" sugar and should be avoided in large quantities. Veggies are fine, especially the green ones.

SO TRUE AND I LOVE THOSE GREEN GRAPES.. AND THEY ARE THE WORST...I HAVE COME TO THE CONCLUSION EVERYTHING I LIKE IS BAD EVERYTHING I DONT LIKE IS GOOD..



One reason the Americans are so obese and Australia is following suit, is because of the introduction of No (or low) Fat/No Carbohydrates in their food .... replaced by corn syrup.   I read that if you check the container of, say, yoghurt that states is is 95% fat free you check the sugar content and it states it is 28g divide that by 4 and you have 7 teaspoons of sugar.

No wonder everyone is getting fatter ....  :D



SUGAR TELLS YOUR BRAIN IT WANTS MORE..

how many of us stop at ONE timtam..one grape..one cherry....one choc square...it doesnt happen.....well not to me..

Title: Re: Anorexia or obesity?
Post by cods on Dec 30th, 2014 at 2:52pm

ian wrote on Dec 30th, 2014 at 2:47pm:

Neferti wrote on Dec 30th, 2014 at 2:24pm:
You should eat less and it is normal to also sleep less as you age.  One should not eat more or sleep more after retirement.  :P

Jogging is bad for your health/bones/hips and feet at any age and should not be done. Walking is fine.

Fruit is full of  "natural" sugar and should be avoided in large quantities. Veggies are fine, especially the green ones.

One reason the Americans are so obese and Australia is following suit, is because of the introduction of No (or low) Fat/No Carbohydrates in their food .... replaced by corn syrup.   I read that if you check the container of, say, yoghurt that states is is 95% fat free you check the sugar content and it states it is 28g divide that by 4 and you have 7 teaspoons of sugar.

No wonder everyone is getting fatter ....  :D
Yes, I agree, lot of people getting sucked in by the fat free nonsense. Its a marketing trick based on nothing more than the emotional connection to the word "fat" in peoples minds in my opinion. If they marketed these foods as "lipids free"  which has the same meaning they wouldnt sell any of it.



What we fail to acknowledge is we should still only eat  the serve qty....instead we think it means we can eat more because its got less fat in it...our brains are sucked into reading 25% LESS... and we eat 25% more.... SALT is another one...salt for me just normal salt that is.. makes it more satisfying...if its salt free..I am looking for more.





Title: Re: Anorexia or obesity?
Post by ian on Dec 30th, 2014 at 3:01pm

cods wrote on Dec 30th, 2014 at 2:52pm:

ian wrote on Dec 30th, 2014 at 2:47pm:

Neferti wrote on Dec 30th, 2014 at 2:24pm:
You should eat less and it is normal to also sleep less as you age.  One should not eat more or sleep more after retirement.  :P

Jogging is bad for your health/bones/hips and feet at any age and should not be done. Walking is fine.

Fruit is full of  "natural" sugar and should be avoided in large quantities. Veggies are fine, especially the green ones.

One reason the Americans are so obese and Australia is following suit, is because of the introduction of No (or low) Fat/No Carbohydrates in their food .... replaced by corn syrup.   I read that if you check the container of, say, yoghurt that states is is 95% fat free you check the sugar content and it states it is 28g divide that by 4 and you have 7 teaspoons of sugar.

No wonder everyone is getting fatter ....  :D
Yes, I agree, lot of people getting sucked in by the fat free nonsense. Its a marketing trick based on nothing more than the emotional connection to the word "fat" in peoples minds in my opinion. If they marketed these foods as "lipids free"  which has the same meaning they wouldnt sell any of it.



What we fail to acknowledge is we should still only eat  the serve qty....instead we think it means we can eat more because its got less fat in it...our brains are sucked into reading 25% LESS... and we eat 25% more.... SALT is another one...salt for me just normal salt that is.. makes it more satisfying...if its salt free..I am looking for more.
refiined carbohydrates  trick our minds and bodies into feeling hungry. ever walked past a bakery and suddenly felt the craving for something  sweet even though you may have just eaten? If they took all the sugar out of a chocolate donut, you wouldnt crave it or ever want to eat one. Thats why the food industry pours refined carbohydrates into every food they can, they know this. In the US as Neferti pointed out, its gone a lot further, they basically  put corn syrup into everything. if you took all the refined carbs out of everything you ate and then only ate when you were hungry and until you were full your body would self regulate. read nefertis posts on how she eats.

Title: Re: Anorexia or obesity?
Post by Redneck on Dec 30th, 2014 at 3:10pm
Good posts one and all! Very interesting

Beer Gut Red  :)

Title: Re: Anorexia or obesity?
Post by Neferti on Dec 30th, 2014 at 3:19pm

Redmond Neck wrote on Dec 30th, 2014 at 3:10pm:
Good posts one and all! Very interesting

Beer Gut Red  :)


It isn't a "beer gut" as such ... it is slack tummy muscles, plus being slack in exercise, eating the wrong things, plus no incentive (no young gorgeous blond females around). Typically, females use childbirth as an excuse for getting fat.

Title: Re: Anorexia or obesity?
Post by cods on Dec 30th, 2014 at 3:29pm

ian wrote on Dec 30th, 2014 at 3:01pm:

cods wrote on Dec 30th, 2014 at 2:52pm:

ian wrote on Dec 30th, 2014 at 2:47pm:

Neferti wrote on Dec 30th, 2014 at 2:24pm:
You should eat less and it is normal to also sleep less as you age.  One should not eat more or sleep more after retirement.  :P

Jogging is bad for your health/bones/hips and feet at any age and should not be done. Walking is fine.

Fruit is full of  "natural" sugar and should be avoided in large quantities. Veggies are fine, especially the green ones.

One reason the Americans are so obese and Australia is following suit, is because of the introduction of No (or low) Fat/No Carbohydrates in their food .... replaced by corn syrup.   I read that if you check the container of, say, yoghurt that states is is 95% fat free you check the sugar content and it states it is 28g divide that by 4 and you have 7 teaspoons of sugar.

No wonder everyone is getting fatter ....  :D
Yes, I agree, lot of people getting sucked in by the fat free nonsense. Its a marketing trick based on nothing more than the emotional connection to the word "fat" in peoples minds in my opinion. If they marketed these foods as "lipids free"  which has the same meaning they wouldnt sell any of it.



What we fail to acknowledge is we should still only eat  the serve qty....instead we think it means we can eat more because its got less fat in it...our brains are sucked into reading 25% LESS... and we eat 25% more.... SALT is another one...salt for me just normal salt that is.. makes it more satisfying...if its salt free..I am looking for more.
refiined carbohydrates  trick our minds and bodies into feeling hungry. ever walked past a bakery and suddenly felt the craving for something  sweet even though you may have just eaten? If they took all the sugar out of a chocolate donut, you wouldnt crave it or ever want to eat one. Thats why the food industry pours refined carbohydrates into every food they can, they know this. In the US as Neferti pointed out, its gone a lot further, they basically  put corn syrup into everything. if you took all the refined carbs out of everything you ate and then only ate when you were hungry and until you were full your body would self regulate. read nefertis posts on how she eats.




you must acknowledge sugar substitutes as well..they are worse than the sugar...anything with ose..on the end of it..we are just waking up to frutose as the enemy.... and dont forget Ian what they have done to FOOD..and I dont mean just in the processing.. look at the growing..what they do to say tomatoes to get them all to ripen at the same time..same with being picked far too soon and kept in fridges..its wrong..

we over produce our soil...nothing even tastes like it once did let alone smell....

does anyone have any idea about black salt.. I have some from Iceland..real Iceland salt...is it used like just any old salt...?

Title: Re: Anorexia or obesity?
Post by ian on Dec 30th, 2014 at 3:33pm
Something we agree on Cods, a lot of this supermarket stuff is grown in hydroponics, picked before its ripe and artifically ripened with ethylene? gas from memory. And how simple is it to grow real tomatoes in your own backyard.

Title: Re: Anorexia or obesity?
Post by cods on Dec 30th, 2014 at 3:35pm

ian wrote on Dec 30th, 2014 at 3:33pm:
Something we agree on Cods, a lot of this supermarket stuff is grown in hydroponics, picked before its ripe and artifically ripened with ethylene? gas from memory. And how simple is it to grow real tomatoes in your own backyard.



I always say the children of today are missing out on something so special....like walking into the house and smelling tomatoes or bananas...that mums just brought home...it gone......wont be long before they are spraying fake smell on everything...bah humbug.

Title: Re: Anorexia or obesity?
Post by Annie Anthrax on Dec 30th, 2014 at 3:44pm

cods wrote on Dec 30th, 2014 at 3:29pm:

ian wrote on Dec 30th, 2014 at 3:01pm:

cods wrote on Dec 30th, 2014 at 2:52pm:

ian wrote on Dec 30th, 2014 at 2:47pm:

Neferti wrote on Dec 30th, 2014 at 2:24pm:
You should eat less and it is normal to also sleep less as you age.  One should not eat more or sleep more after retirement.  :P

Jogging is bad for your health/bones/hips and feet at any age and should not be done. Walking is fine.

Fruit is full of  "natural" sugar and should be avoided in large quantities. Veggies are fine, especially the green ones.

One reason the Americans are so obese and Australia is following suit, is because of the introduction of No (or low) Fat/No Carbohydrates in their food .... replaced by corn syrup.   I read that if you check the container of, say, yoghurt that states is is 95% fat free you check the sugar content and it states it is 28g divide that by 4 and you have 7 teaspoons of sugar.

No wonder everyone is getting fatter ....  :D
Yes, I agree, lot of people getting sucked in by the fat free nonsense. Its a marketing trick based on nothing more than the emotional connection to the word "fat" in peoples minds in my opinion. If they marketed these foods as "lipids free"  which has the same meaning they wouldnt sell any of it.



What we fail to acknowledge is we should still only eat  the serve qty....instead we think it means we can eat more because its got less fat in it...our brains are sucked into reading 25% LESS... and we eat 25% more.... SALT is another one...salt for me just normal salt that is.. makes it more satisfying...if its salt free..I am looking for more.
refiined carbohydrates  trick our minds and bodies into feeling hungry. ever walked past a bakery and suddenly felt the craving for something  sweet even though you may have just eaten? If they took all the sugar out of a chocolate donut, you wouldnt crave it or ever want to eat one. Thats why the food industry pours refined carbohydrates into every food they can, they know this. In the US as Neferti pointed out, its gone a lot further, they basically  put corn syrup into everything. if you took all the refined carbs out of everything you ate and then only ate when you were hungry and until you were full your body would self regulate. read nefertis posts on how she eats.




you must acknowledge sugar substitutes as well..they are worse than the sugar...anything with ose..on the end of it..we are just waking up to frutose as the enemy....


I use a lot of artificial sweeteners. I like Natvia because it's supposed to be more natural, but I will use Splenda or whatever is handy. My husband has made custard with sweeteners. I'm going to attempt to give up artificial sweeteners in the new year.



Title: Re: Anorexia or obesity?
Post by ian on Dec 30th, 2014 at 3:52pm
stevia is 100 percent natural as far as I am aware.

Title: Re: Anorexia or obesity?
Post by Redneck on Dec 30th, 2014 at 3:54pm
THERE’S NO DOUBT about it. Artificial sweeteners cause obesity.

I always thought it was funny to see a very large person order a Big Mac, large fries — and top it off with a Diet Coke. I also found it peculiar that I rarely saw thin people drinking diet sodas. So I began to wonder if there could be a link between diet beverages or artificial sweeteners and obesity. As I began to explore this notion, I discovered a number of different research findings that pointed to this very phenomenon.

First, our current obesity epidemic has coincided perfectly with the introduction of large amounts of artificial sweeteners into our food supply. Although we cannot say for sure that this means artificial sweeteners cause obesity, it certainly makes me wonder.

Next, a body of research indicates that just the thought or smell of food initiates a whole set of hormonal and physiologic responses that get the body ready for food. This is familiar to us from Pavlov’s dog experiment, where he trained dogs to salivate by associating the ringing of a bell with the presentation of food.

By doing this repeatedly, he eventually trained the dogs to salivate in anticipation of food simply by ringing the bell – without any food at all.

Think of diet sodas and artificial sweeteners as ringing the bell for your physiology. Today I will explain how that happens and review some of the research that indicates artificial sweeteners may not be all they are cracked up to be.

Ringing the bells in your body with artificial sweeteners is not a good thing. It’s even worse when you ring the bells with artificial sweeteners and then not provide any sugar. Here’s why …

Our brains know how to get our bodies ready for food. It is called the cephalic (for “head”) phase reflex. Your brain is preparing for food even before your fork or cup crosses your lips. This allows you to anticipate and prepare for the arrival of nutrients in your intestinal tract, improves the efficiency of how your nutrients are absorbed, and minimizes the degree to which food will disturb your natural hormonal balance and create weight gain.

So, in a way, your body is already preparing to regulate your energy balance, metabolism, weight, calorie burning, and many other things – just by thinking about food. Any sweet taste will signal your body that calories are on the way and trigger a whole set of hormonal and metabolic responses to get ready for those calories.

When you trick your body and feed it non-nutritive or non-caloric sweeteners, like aspartame, acesulfame, saccharin, sucralose, or even natural sweeteners like stevia, it gets confused. And research supports this.



Read the rest here:

http://drhyman.com/blog/2010/06/19/artificial-sweeteners-could-be-sabotaging-your-diet/#close

Title: Re: Anorexia or obesity?
Post by ian on Dec 30th, 2014 at 4:02pm

Redmond Neck wrote on Dec 30th, 2014 at 3:54pm:
T
First, our current obesity epidemic has coincided perfectly with the introduction of large amounts of artificial sweeteners into our food supply. Although we cannot say for sure that this means artificial sweeteners cause obesity, it certainly makes me wonder.

Good article, I have some problems with this claim though, its incorrect. Artifical sweeteners were introduced after the obesity epidemic was recognised.

Title: Re: Anorexia or obesity?
Post by Redneck on Dec 30th, 2014 at 4:07pm
Yes you probably are right...just something I came across

Title: Re: Anorexia or obesity?
Post by Neferti on Dec 30th, 2014 at 4:13pm
I blame SMOKING.  You rarely saw a really FAT person when smoking cigarettes was OK. Once they banned that, people took up EATING to satisfy their cravings.

Some people still smoke (23% of the population) but 40% are obese. Should we give out FREE ciggies to the OBESE lot to stop them eating?i





I am joking ........  ;D ;D

Title: Re: Anorexia or obesity?
Post by ian on Dec 30th, 2014 at 4:18pm

Redmond Neck wrote on Dec 30th, 2014 at 4:07pm:
Yes you probably are right...just something I came across
Im pretty sure the main thrust of the article is correct, its a good find, articial sweeteners do ring our bells, I just think blaming them for obesity is incorrect, I think they may be helping to perpetuate it though. If you are like me, you really need something sweet in your life.

Title: Re: Anorexia or obesity?
Post by Redneck on Dec 30th, 2014 at 4:33pm

Neferti wrote on Dec 30th, 2014 at 4:13pm:
I blame SMOKING.  You rarely saw a really FAT person when smoking cigarettes was OK. Once they banned that, people took up EATING to satisfy their cravings.

Some people still smoke (23% of the population) but 40% are obese. Should we give out FREE ciggies to the OBESE lot to stop them eating?


Actually I smoked until I was about 30. ( 40years ago)

Breakfast was a cup of tea and a ciggy. I do think they cure cravings including hunger.

Cancer is the down side, although I might join my younger sister and take it up again when I turn 80 as I did enjoy it apart from the morning coughing session.

;)i






I am joking ........  ;D ;D[/quote]

Title: Re: Anorexia or obesity?
Post by Rocketanski on Dec 30th, 2014 at 4:35pm
Don't eat big slabs of meat day in day out. If you do make sure you burn it through exercise. That's why people are getting fat.

Title: Re: Anorexia or obesity?
Post by ian on Dec 30th, 2014 at 5:47pm

Rocketanski wrote on Dec 30th, 2014 at 4:35pm:
Don't eat big slabs of meat day in day out. If you do make sure you burn it through exercise. That's why people are getting fat.

absolute  nonsensical rubbish

Title: Re: Anorexia or obesity?
Post by ian on Dec 30th, 2014 at 5:48pm

Redmond Neck wrote on Dec 30th, 2014 at 4:33pm:

Neferti wrote on Dec 30th, 2014 at 4:13pm:
I blame SMOKING.  You rarely saw a really FAT person when smoking cigarettes was OK. Once they banned that, people took up EATING to satisfy their cravings.

Some people still smoke (23% of the population) but 40% are obese. Should we give out FREE ciggies to the OBESE lot to stop them eating?


Actually I smoked until I was about 30. ( 40years ago)

Breakfast was a cup of tea and a ciggy. I do think they cure cravings including hunger.

Cancer is the down side, although I might join my younger sister and take it up again when I turn 80 as I did enjoy it apart from the morning coughing session.

;)i






I am joking ........  ;D ;D

I only smoke after sex. It comes out of my ears.

Title: Re: Anorexia or obesity?
Post by Lord Herbert on Dec 30th, 2014 at 7:46pm

Neferti wrote on Dec 30th, 2014 at 4:13pm:
I blame SMOKING.  You rarely saw a really FAT person when smoking cigarettes was OK. Once they banned that, people took up EATING to satisfy their cravings.

Some people still smoke (23% of the population) but 40% are obese. Should we give out FREE ciggies to the OBESE lot to stop them eating?


Bingo! Correctomundo.

But! You've persisted with a couple of urban myths here.

When I stopped a nearly 2-pack a day smoking habit 20 years ago I did not start eating more ... and I did not start tasting my food any better. And nor did I compensate myself with chocolates and ice cream.

Smoking among professional models has been part of their tools for staying slim. There are 2000 different chemicals packed into each cigarette, and no doubt some of these burn up fat in the blood stream.

One of my bosses was tall but round with an enormous stomach, and he told me this happened when he gave up smoking. Same thing happened to me.

You smoke - you're on-track to die of cancer.

Stop smoking - and your a candidate to die from heart disease.ii


Title: Re: Anorexia or obesity?
Post by Lord Herbert on Dec 30th, 2014 at 7:50pm

ian wrote on Dec 30th, 2014 at 5:48pm:
I only smoke after sex.


Now you know why I don't smoke.  ::)

Title: Re: Anorexia or obesity?
Post by Lionel Edriess on Dec 30th, 2014 at 8:04pm

Lord Herbert wrote on Dec 30th, 2014 at 7:50pm:

ian wrote on Dec 30th, 2014 at 5:48pm:
I only smoke after sex.


Now you know why I don't smoke.  ::)


Now I know you're a wanker!

If you wish to journey into self-love, you've got to make a fist of it!

8-)



Title: Re: Anorexia or obesity?
Post by ian on Dec 30th, 2014 at 8:06pm
...............

Title: Re: Anorexia or obesity?
Post by Lord Herbert on Dec 30th, 2014 at 8:13pm

Lionel Edriess wrote on Dec 30th, 2014 at 8:04pm:

Lord Herbert wrote on Dec 30th, 2014 at 7:50pm:

ian wrote on Dec 30th, 2014 at 5:48pm:
I only smoke after sex.


Now you know why I don't smoke.  ::)


Now I know you're a person!

If you wish to journey into self-love, you've got to make a fist of it!

8-)


Onanism is not for me, Lionel, but then again, if you want to give me a hand with my non-existent sex-life, then you'll have to hurry before Annie finds me in the Tool Shed.

Title: Re: Anorexia or obesity?
Post by UnSubRocky on Dec 31st, 2014 at 3:22pm

Ex Dame Pansi wrote on Dec 30th, 2014 at 5:41am:
Intermittent fasting seems to be the rage these days, usually 5 and 2. Eat normal (not pigging out) for five days then cut your kj intake right down for two days. I just don't think it's good for your body, but everyone to their own. I know people that do it and swear by it, my doctor hands out brochures to his patients, so he mustn't think it's unhealthy.


Myself included in the group of people who believe in fasting. I read an online book about salubrious living. One thing that needs to be *cut down* in terms of consumption is sugar. Get the sugar consumption to be only a minor part of your diet, and you will lose weight easily. Cutting out alcohol (like I have done recently) will make weight loss easy, because it helps the intestines and liver, and kidneys to process the food more efficiently.

Getting back to fasting topics, it is okay to have a day of fasting (no eating for 12 hours) per week. I wouldn't go beyond one day of a week to doing that because it might incite your subconscious to start to combat starvation. But you shouldn't do that unless you are a few weeks into cutting out alcohol, sugar, and excess fat from your diet.

Last night, I started grapefruit juice (watered down) as part of the weight loss diet. Grapefruit seems to cut down the fat in the body, making it easy to lose weight.  have also bought cinnamon tablets, to get the sugar levels under control.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WjvR9cKhu8

Title: Re: Anorexia or obesity?
Post by Neferti on Dec 31st, 2014 at 3:28pm

ian wrote on Dec 30th, 2014 at 5:48pm:

Redmond Neck wrote on Dec 30th, 2014 at 4:33pm:

Neferti wrote on Dec 30th, 2014 at 4:13pm:
I blame SMOKING.  You rarely saw a really FAT person when smoking cigarettes was OK. Once they banned that, people took up EATING to satisfy their cravings.

Some people still smoke (23% of the population) but 40% are obese. Should we give out FREE ciggies to the OBESE lot to stop them eating?


Actually I smoked until I was about 30. ( 40years ago)

Breakfast was a cup of tea and a ciggy. I do think they cure cravings including hunger.

Cancer is the down side, although I might join my younger sister and take it up again when I turn 80 as I did enjoy it apart from the morning coughing session.

;)i






I am joking ........  ;D ;D

I only smoke after sex. It comes out of my ears.


I used to smoke after sex as well.  Now I don't have sex, I don't smoke either.  ;)

Title: Re: Anorexia or obesity?
Post by UnSubRocky on Dec 31st, 2014 at 3:34pm

ian wrote on Dec 30th, 2014 at 10:07am:
it has its benefits but is not a one size fits all. Athletes cant do it without affecting performance and its dangerous for the obese. Its a way of maintaining weight but not a very good or healthy one. The Nazis had good success with it though. Any semi starvation diet is unhealthy. why on earth would anyone adopt a diet which starves the body of nutrients? Despite this, depriving the body of calories for many people will result in the body conserving calories which will hinder those attempting to lose weight.


I'm obese. And although if I was active during a fast, it would be dangerous, the fasting has done me a lot of good. As I said earlier, if I was exercising whilst starving, I can pass out. But if I was not doing much, the fasting is fine.

One year, I didn't eat a thing for almost 2 days. Nothing but water. When I was noticed as having missed meals, I was forced to eat a sandwich (that I just about inhaled), and that was my break-fast. I went back to eating normally, and I noticed that my skin was hanging loose. I must have lost a lot of weight inside one week of normal eating and the previous 2 days of starving myself for food. For the record, I did the extended fasting to protest some woman's comments about me being fat. But I was 90kgs at the time.

Funny thing I heard this year was the Biggest Loser trainer (Steve Willis/Commando) claiming that he could lose 5kg within a week. *I* couldn't lose 5kg in a week, even if I had an intensive workout. And I have plenty of weight to lose.

Title: Re: Anorexia or obesity?
Post by Neferti on Dec 31st, 2014 at 3:37pm

Redmond Neck wrote on Dec 30th, 2014 at 4:33pm:

Neferti wrote on Dec 30th, 2014 at 4:13pm:
I blame SMOKING.  You rarely saw a really FAT person when smoking cigarettes was OK. Once they banned that, people took up EATING to satisfy their cravings.

Some people still smoke (23% of the population) but 40% are obese. Should we give out FREE ciggies to the OBESE lot to stop them eating?


Actually I smoked until I was about 30. ( 40years ago)

Breakfast was a cup of tea and a ciggy. I do think they cure cravings including hunger.

Cancer is the down side, although I might join my younger sister and take it up again when I turn 80 as I did enjoy it apart from the morning coughing session.

;)i






I am joking ........  ;D ;D




They are still trying to stop people smoking by blaming ciggies for various forms of cancer.  People started giving up ciggies in droves (for their health) way back in the early 1980s. Cancer rates have risen. Despite loads of money going into cancer research, they still can't figure it out.  Cancer has been around for centuries.  I found that a Scottish relative of mine died from cancer, age 48, back in the mid 1800s. I doubt she smoked. ;)

Kids are still starting to smoke. So raising the price of ciggies is not the answer either.

Title: Re: Anorexia or obesity?
Post by Neferti on Dec 31st, 2014 at 3:42pm

Lord Herbert wrote on Dec 30th, 2014 at 7:46pm:

Neferti wrote on Dec 30th, 2014 at 4:13pm:
I blame SMOKING.  You rarely saw a really FAT person when smoking cigarettes was OK. Once they banned that, people took up EATING to satisfy their cravings.

Some people still smoke (23% of the population) but 40% are obese. Should we give out FREE ciggies to the OBESE lot to stop them eating?


Bingo! Correctomundo.

But! You've persisted with a couple of urban myths here.

When I stopped a nearly 2-pack a day smoking habit 20 years ago I did not start eating more ... and I did not start tasting my food any better. And nor did I compensate myself with chocolates and ice cream.

Smoking among professional models has been part of their tools for staying slim. There are 2000 different chemicals packed into each cigarette, and no doubt some of these burn up fat in the blood stream.

One of my bosses was tall but round with an enormous stomach, and he told me this happened when he gave up smoking. Same thing happened to me.

You smoke - you're on-track to die of cancer.

Stop smoking - and your a candidate to die from heart disease.


As I have stated elsewhere, I did NOT gain any weight after giving up smoking. Some people do though.

You die because that is what happens to ALL of us, eventually. There is nothing you can do about it .... except to enjoy life as much as you can BEFORE the end of the road.

Title: Re: Anorexia or obesity?
Post by Lord Herbert on Dec 31st, 2014 at 4:50pm

Neferti wrote on Dec 31st, 2014 at 3:42pm:
[quote

As I have stated elsewhere, I did NOT gain any weight after giving up smoking. Some people do though.

You die because that is what happens to ALL of us, eventually. There is nothing you can do about it .... except to enjoy life as much as you can BEFORE the end of the road.


Yes, but ...

The battle is not with Death, but with trying to keep as fit as possible in the months and years leading up to your eventual demise. Trying not to be an invalid and a cripple in your later years should hold much more fear for you than death itself.

I have three neighbours close by who all have horrendous joint problems.

With one of them, her quality-of-life was reduced each time she went into hospital to 'correct' a problem.

Her hip-replacement left her limping as never before, with arthritic pains still being felt.

Her knee operation was a total disaster, resulted in her needing a 'walking frame' to get about - even in her own home.

An operation on a pinched nerve in her neck did absolutely nothing to help her with numbness in her fingers as it was supposed to.

Same with the other neighbours - operations galore for absolutely no discernible benefit.

Conclusion: If you've got joint problems - don't rush to have a surgeon go digging around in you. Wait until the pain really does become just too much to bear.


Title: Re: Anorexia or obesity?
Post by cods on Dec 31st, 2014 at 4:57pm

Lord Herbert wrote on Dec 31st, 2014 at 4:50pm:

Neferti wrote on Dec 31st, 2014 at 3:42pm:
[quote

As I have stated elsewhere, I did NOT gain any weight after giving up smoking. Some people do though.

You die because that is what happens to ALL of us, eventually. There is nothing you can do about it .... except to enjoy life as much as you can BEFORE the end of the road.


Yes, but ...

The battle is not with Death, but with trying to keep as fit as possible in the months and years leading up to your eventual demise. Trying not to be an invalid and a cripple in your later years should hold much more fear for you than death itself.

I have three neighbours close by who all have horrendous joint problems.

With one of them, her quality-of-life was reduced each time she went into hospital to 'correct' a problem.

Her hip-replacement left her limping as never before, with arthritic pains still being felt.

Her knee operation was a total disaster, resulted in her needing a 'walking frame' to get about - even in her own home.

An operation on a pinched nerve in her neck did absolutely nothing to help her with numbness in her fingers as it was supposed to.

Same with the other neighbours - operations galore for absolutely no discernible benefit.

Conclusion: If you've got joint problems - don't rush to have a surgeon go digging around in you. Wait until the pain really does become just too much to bear.



herb I am a bit of a bionic women metal in the right ankle and now the right hip...and I am almost pain free.. I did to all the physio...which is painful but my god it works..if this lady didnt do that and some dont as you have to make the effort  then of course she would never walk correctly...I was a cripple before the hip was done.. sitting standing nothing worked it was all pain...I would never wish I hadnt had it done...

its up to the person herb dont care what you say...its the same with being over weight....you can only help yourself....my dad almost lost a leg to smoking...he did live his last years in a lot of pain and he smoked till he died.. it was his choice.

Title: Re: Anorexia or obesity?
Post by Black Orchid on Dec 31st, 2014 at 5:38pm
Re cancer I think you either get it or you don't.

My Dad gave up smoking more than 40 years before he died.  It was a metastatic growth in the brain that took him out, but it had started in the lung.

Whereas my MIL died from throat cancer and never smoked a cigarette a day in her life.

It's just Russian roulette.

Weight can be controlled, it just takes a little willpower, but definitely gets harder around middle age.  By that time who cares?

Title: Re: Anorexia or obesity?
Post by Lord Herbert on Dec 31st, 2014 at 7:19pm

Black Orchid wrote on Dec 31st, 2014 at 5:38pm:
Re cancer I think you either get it or you don't.

My Dad gave up smoking more than 40 years before he died.  It was a metastatic growth in the brain that took him out, but it had started in the lung.

Whereas my MIL died from throat cancer and never smoked a cigarette a day in her life.

It's just Russian roulette.
'gjkiiiiii"FV
b


Absolutely correct.

It's almost entirely at the dictates of your genes. I was a chain-smoker most of my adult life.

My brother smoked only very moderately all his life - sometimes not at all, and stopped 10 years before he died of cancer of the gums.

The Professor of Oncology at the RPA in Sydney told him the cancer was caused by stimulation of the gums from only a very few beers at the club each week. The alcohol triggered the development of cancer. It had nothing to do with anything else.


Title: Re: Anorexia or obesity?
Post by The_Barnacle_Oh_Yeah on Jan 1st, 2015 at 12:35pm

Lord Herbert wrote on Dec 31st, 2014 at 7:19pm:

Black Orchid wrote on Dec 31st, 2014 at 5:38pm:
Re cancer I think you either get it or you don't.

My Dad gave up smoking more than 40 years before he died.  It was a metastatic growth in the brain that took him out, but it had started in the lung.

Whereas my MIL died from throat cancer and never smoked a cigarette a day in her life.

It's just Russian roulette.
'gjkiiiiii"FV
b


Absolutely correct.

It's almost entirely at the dictates of your genes.


Absolutely incorrect
Environmental factors do have a large effect on your chances of getting cancer.
You can give anecdotal evidence until the cows come home. The fact is that it you smoke ,if you are obese or if you breathe in asbestos fibres you will dramatically INCREASE your chances of getting cancer.

Title: Re: Anorexia or obesity?
Post by Lord Herbert on Jan 1st, 2015 at 12:38pm

The_Barnacle wrote on Jan 1st, 2015 at 12:35pm:
Absolutely incorrect

Environmental factors do have a large effect on your chances of getting cancer.

You can give anecdotal evidence until the cows come home. The fact is that it you smoke ,if you are obese or if you breathe in asbestos fibres you will dramatically INCREASE your chances of getting cancer.


Correct!

But ONLY if you have the genes that make you vulnerable to environmental factors.

Mesothelioma can be left out of this. It's entirely a different phenomenon.

Case in point: Japan's population once had the highest incidence of smoking in the entire world ... but the lowest incidence of cancer.

The Hunza people live to a ripe old age, and their secret? Smoke like there's no tomorrow and don't worry about any thing.



Title: Re: Anorexia or obesity?
Post by Honky on Jan 1st, 2015 at 1:39pm

UnSubRocky wrote on Dec 31st, 2014 at 3:34pm:

ian wrote on Dec 30th, 2014 at 10:07am:
it has its benefits but is not a one size fits all. Athletes cant do it without affecting performance and its dangerous for the obese. Its a way of maintaining weight but not a very good or healthy one. The Nazis had good success with it though. Any semi starvation diet is unhealthy. why on earth would anyone adopt a diet which starves the body of nutrients? Despite this, depriving the body of calories for many people will result in the body conserving calories which will hinder those attempting to lose weight.


I'm obese. And although if I was active during a fast, it would be dangerous, the fasting has done me a lot of good. As I said earlier, if I was exercising whilst starving, I can pass out. But if I was not doing much, the fasting is fine.

One year, I didn't eat a thing for almost 2 days. Nothing but water. When I was noticed as having missed meals, I was forced to eat a sandwich (that I just about inhaled), and that was my break-fast. I went back to eating normally, and I noticed that my skin was hanging loose. I must have lost a lot of weight inside one week of normal eating and the previous 2 days of starving myself for food. For the record, I did the extended fasting to protest some woman's comments about me being fat. But I was 90kgs at the time.

Funny thing I heard this year was the Biggest Loser trainer (Steve Willis/Commando) claiming that he could lose 5kg within a week. *I* couldn't lose 5kg in a week, even if I had an intensive workout. And I have plenty of weight to lose.


Fighters do it all the time for their weigh in. 


Quote:
Barao (32-2, 1 NC), who also had a rocky weight cut ahead of UFC 173, claimed that he regularly cuts 10 kilos, or 22 pounds, for his fights, and that he was on course to make weight prior to the incident.


http://www.mmafighting.com/2014/8/30/6088683/renan-barao-defends-weight-cutting-practices-after-friday-dropout

Barao is a bantamweight, which is something like 60kg. 

Title: Re: Anorexia or obesity?
Post by UnSubRocky on Jan 2nd, 2015 at 12:26am
You couldn't lose 5kg in one week, even if you did an intensive training and strict diet. For that to be possible, you have to be obese like myself. But you really need to put in the effort and discipline to lose 5kg in 7 days. 5/7ths of a kilogram per day is not likely, no matter who you are.

Title: Re: Anorexia or obesity?
Post by AiA on Jan 2nd, 2015 at 1:11am

Lord Herbert wrote on Dec 31st, 2014 at 7:19pm:
It's almost entirely at the dictates of your genes.


If that were true then cancer rates would have be steady over the last century and not risen.



Title: Re: Anorexia or obesity?
Post by Lord Herbert on Jan 2nd, 2015 at 5:12am

AiA wrote on Jan 2nd, 2015 at 1:11am:

Lord Herbert wrote on Dec 31st, 2014 at 7:19pm:
It's almost entirely at the dictates of your genes.


If that were true then cancer rates would have be steady over the last century and not risen.


Cancer is the product only of a failing immune system. When your immune system begins to deteriorate with age ... that's when the cancer cells begin to win the battles.

Over the past century the average age of death has increased enormously ~ taking a much higher percentage of the population into the years when the immune system is not as effective as it once was ... with the result that the incidence of cancer has trended up exponentially over the past century.

I did absolutely everything during my lifetime that leads to cancer.

Worked in the unhealthy environment of the manufacturing industries.

Smoked 2-pack a day.

Did rotating shifts for decades.

Drank to oblivion for 12 solid years.

Lived alone.

Felt stressed all my life.

Took psychiatric medication for most of my adult life.

etc.

These are known indicators that lead towards the likelihood of cancer ... and yet I've outlived my entire family, including uncles and aunties by more than 10 full years.

Reason? Genetics. A radically different set of genetics than all those who have died. An Export Quality set of immune anti-whatevers.

10 years ago I sat in my GP's office where we made preparations for my imminent demise. In his own words: "You have a big target on your back". I was then scheduled for routine checkups for various kinds of cancer. After two years we abandoned this.

I don't diet and I don't do any exercise ~ and apart from a paunch I'm as healthy as a scrub bull. At 72 this year I can still swing from the chandeliers.

And it's all about ... genetics.





Title: Re: Anorexia or obesity?
Post by cods on Jan 2nd, 2015 at 5:35am

Black Orchid wrote on Dec 31st, 2014 at 5:38pm:
Re cancer I think you either get it or you don't.

My Dad gave up smoking more than 40 years before he died.  It was a metastatic growth in the brain that took him out, but it had started in the lung.

Whereas my MIL died from throat cancer and never smoked a cigarette a day in her life.

It's just Russian roulette.

Weight can be controlled, it just takes a little willpower, but definitely gets harder around middle age.  By that time who cares?



I agree my dad started smoking at 14 was still smoking when he died at 89.. drank for the better part of his life, suffered gout badly almost lost a leg....coughed his heart up every day...was a crabby bad tempered man all his life.....but just fell asleep in the end...not that I would wish lung cancer on anyone....but it does make me wonder why some and not others..

Title: Re: Anorexia or obesity?
Post by Lord Herbert on Jan 2nd, 2015 at 5:53am

cods wrote on Jan 2nd, 2015 at 5:35am:
I agree my dad started smoking at 14 was still smoking when he died at 89.. drank for the better part of his life, suffered gout badly almost lost a leg....coughed his heart up every day...was a crabby bad tempered man all his life.....but just fell asleep in the end...not that I would wish lung cancer on anyone....but it does make me wonder why some and not others..



Wonder no more, fair maiden.

Genetics is responsible for the quality and the effectiveness of your immune system.

It's that simple.

My neighbour's son did his motor mechanic's apprenticeship 40 years ago during which time he spent a combined total of many hours grinding and shaping asbestos brake pads with his head shrouded in a fine dust of this lethal powder.

Today at 60 he is one of the fittest people around. Not a sign of sickness of any sort.

Genetics.


Title: Re: Anorexia or obesity?
Post by cods on Jan 2nd, 2015 at 5:59am

Lord Herbert wrote on Jan 2nd, 2015 at 5:53am:

cods wrote on Jan 2nd, 2015 at 5:35am:
I agree my dad started smoking at 14 was still smoking when he died at 89.. drank for the better part of his life, suffered gout badly almost lost a leg....coughed his heart up every day...was a crabby bad tempered man all his life.....but just fell asleep in the end...not that I would wish lung cancer on anyone....but it does make me wonder why some and not others..



Wonder no more, fair maiden.

Genetics is responsible for the quality and the effectiveness of your immune system.

It's that simple.

My neighbour's son did his motor mechanic's apprenticeship 40 years ago during which time he spent a combined total of many hours grinding and shaping asbestos brake pads with his head shrouded in a fine dust of this lethal powder.

Today at 60 he is one of the fittest people around. Not a sign of sickness of any sort.

Genetics.


  yes I am sure they play a big part... but it cant all be down to that... our lifestyle and its getting worse....has got to be a large part not in all cancers of course.....

its our immune system I guess in the long run....why do some get MS??...one of the reasons I would have gladly paid the $7 doctors visit fee was in the hope it wouldnt be long before we had the answers to these diseases.....

.if what you say is true.. then some can abuse their bodies and get away with it.....I dont think thats quite true either..

Title: Re: Anorexia or obesity?
Post by AiA on Jan 2nd, 2015 at 6:05am

Lord Herbert wrote on Jan 2nd, 2015 at 5:12am:

AiA wrote on Jan 2nd, 2015 at 1:11am:

Lord Herbert wrote on Dec 31st, 2014 at 7:19pm:
It's almost entirely at the dictates of your genes.


If that were true then cancer rates would have be steady over the last century and not risen.


Cancer is the product only of a failing immune system. When your immune system begins to deteriorate with age ... that's when the cancer cells begin to win the battles.

Over the past century the average age of death has increased enormously ~ taking a much higher percentage of the population into the years when the immune system is not as effective as it once was ... with the result that the incidence of cancer has trended up exponentially over the past century.

I did absolutely everything during my lifetime that leads to cancer.

Worked in the unhealthy environment of the manufacturing industries.

Smoked 2-pack a day.

Did rotating shifts for decades.

Drank to oblivion for 12 solid years.

Lived alone.

Felt stressed all my life.

Took psychiatric medication for most of my adult life.

etc.

These are known indicators that lead towards the likelihood of cancer ... and yet I've outlived my entire family, including uncles and aunties by more than 10 full years.

Reason? Genetics. A radically different set of genetics than all those who have died. An Export Quality set of immune anti-whatevers.

10 years ago I sat in my GP's office where we made preparations for my imminent demise. In his own words: "You have a big target on your back". I was then scheduled for routine checkups for various kinds of cancer. After two years we abandoned this.

I don't diet and I don't do any exercise ~ and apart from a paunch I'm as healthy as a scrub bull. At 72 this year I can still swing from the chandeliers.

And it's all about ... genetics.


Even with increased life expectancy factored in, cancer rates are significantly higher than 100 years ago.

Cancer among the young is way up as well.  Look at all the young women today who are diagnosed with breast cancer yet it didn't touch their great-great grandmothers. 

Title: Re: Anorexia or obesity?
Post by Lord Herbert on Jan 2nd, 2015 at 9:11am

AiA wrote on Jan 2nd, 2015 at 6:05am:
Even with increased life expectancy factored in, cancer rates are significantly higher than 100 years ago.


You're making it up on the run now.


AiA wrote on Jan 2nd, 2015 at 6:05am:
Cancer among the young is way up as well.  Look at all the young women today who are diagnosed with breast cancer yet it didn't touch their great-great grandmothers. 


Something in the dyes, preservatives, and artificial flavouring chemicals in our Supermarket foods is lowering or damaging the immune system.





Title: Re: Anorexia or obesity?
Post by Lord Herbert on Jan 2nd, 2015 at 12:12pm
Ah! Look what I've just come across ...


"Most cases of cancer are the result of ‘bad luck’ rather than unhealthy lifestyles, diet or even inherited genes, claim scientists.

For two out of three cancer victims, the cumulative effect of random mistakes in genes is to blame for the disease rather than poor choices about how they lived their lives or ‘chose’ their parents.

Previously experts have estimated that 30-40 per cent of cancer cases would be avoided given a better lifestyle, but there has been no similar calculation about whether the remainder can be prevented".


link

Title: Re: Anorexia or obesity?
Post by Black Orchid on Jan 2nd, 2015 at 12:32pm

Lord Herbert wrote on Jan 2nd, 2015 at 9:11am:
[quote author=AiA_in_Atlanta link=1196754932/134#134 date=1420142710]Something in the dyes, preservatives, and artificial flavouring chemicals in our Supermarket foods is lowering or damaging the immune system.


That, in my mind, hits the nail squarely on the head.

Title: Re: Anorexia or obesity?
Post by Lord Herbert on Jan 2nd, 2015 at 2:08pm

Black Orchid wrote on Jan 2nd, 2015 at 12:32pm:

Lord Herbert wrote on Jan 2nd, 2015 at 9:11am:
[quote author=AiA_in_Atlanta link=1196754932/134#134 date=1420142710]Something in the dyes, preservatives, and artificial flavouring chemicals in our Supermarket foods is lowering or damaging the immune system.


That, in my mind, hits the nail squarely on the head.


But we don't really know, do we?

If that is true, then the class action against the food processors will make the litigations against James Hardy for the asbestos damage a Teddy Bears picnic by comparison.

Surely they must have tested those additional ingredients on lab rats?

And kept the results a secret??

Might be a job for CHOICE to check up on?

Title: Re: Anorexia or obesity?
Post by bogarde73 on Jan 2nd, 2015 at 2:14pm
Prior to probably the 1930s, various types of cancer would probably have gone undiagnosed as a cause of death.
I'm thinking of various blood cancers, brain tumours and others not immediately recognisable without post mortem.
Therefore, can we rely much on long term statistics relating to deaths from cancer?

Title: Re: Anorexia or obesity?
Post by Lord Herbert on Jan 2nd, 2015 at 2:20pm

bogarde73 wrote on Jan 2nd, 2015 at 2:14pm:
Prior to probably the 1930s, various types of cancer would probably have gone undiagnosed as a cause of death.
I'm thinking of various blood cancers, brain tumours and others not immediately recognisable without post mortem.
Therefore, can we rely much on long term statistics relating to deaths from cancer?


No we CAN'T! (Shades of Obama)

(And that puts AiA back in his box until another day).  :)

Title: Re: Anorexia or obesity?
Post by Black Orchid on Jan 2nd, 2015 at 2:36pm

Lord Herbert wrote on Jan 2nd, 2015 at 2:08pm:

Black Orchid wrote on Jan 2nd, 2015 at 12:32pm:

Lord Herbert wrote on Jan 2nd, 2015 at 9:11am:
[quote author=AiA_in_Atlanta link=1196754932/134#134 date=1420142710]Something in the dyes, preservatives, and artificial flavouring chemicals in our Supermarket foods is lowering or damaging the immune system.


That, in my mind, hits the nail squarely on the head.


But we don't really know, do we?

If that is true, then the class action against the food processors will make the litigations against James Hardy for the asbestos damage a Teddy Bears picnic by comparison.

Surely they must have tested those additional ingredients on lab rats?

And kept the results a secret??

Might be a job for CHOICE to check up on?


We won't get stats.

My grandparents and great-grandparents ate what they liked.  Good wholesome food.  Some very fatty foods too.  I remember my mother telling me that her father used to love dripping on toast.  Gross, but they weren't obese, didn't have heart problems and had very long lives.

Society dictates how manufacturers perform.  For instance, society will blame NOT their lack of culinary discipline on their obesity but they will blame the copious amounts of Coke they drink per day and the sugar content therein.  So what happens?

We get swamped with sugar free products that are probably many,many times more chemically harmful than the sugar itself.

They build apartment complexes, schools and houses on the sites of old gasworks then try to kill the litigious proceedings by denying that cancer clusters exist.  Take a walk around Olympic Park and in certain sections that are usually cordoned off you will see toxic sludge bubbling up through the ground.

Will they ever admit they got it wrong?  I highly doubt it.

Title: Re: Anorexia or obesity?
Post by Lord Herbert on Jan 2nd, 2015 at 5:17pm
How many old batteries and smoke alarms go into landfill upon which residential homes are built, and schools?


Title: Re: Anorexia or obesity?
Post by Setanta on Jan 2nd, 2015 at 6:01pm

Black Orchid wrote on Jan 2nd, 2015 at 2:36pm:
My grandparents and great-grandparents ate what they liked.  Good wholesome food.  Some very fatty foods too.  I remember my mother telling me that her father used to love dripping on toast.  Gross, but they weren't obese, didn't have heart problems and had very long lives.


Have you tried it? I still eat it on bread or fry bread in it, especially lamb roast dripping but bacon dripping is good too.

Title: Re: Anorexia or obesity?
Post by Black Orchid on Jan 2nd, 2015 at 7:18pm

Setanta wrote on Jan 2nd, 2015 at 6:01pm:

Black Orchid wrote on Jan 2nd, 2015 at 2:36pm:
My grandparents and great-grandparents ate what they liked.  Good wholesome food.  Some very fatty foods too.  I remember my mother telling me that her father used to love dripping on toast.  Gross, but they weren't obese, didn't have heart problems and had very long lives.


Have you tried it? I still eat it on bread or fry bread in it, especially lamb roast dripping but bacon dripping is good too.


No I haven't.  I don't doubt it is tasty but the consistency and texture just doesn't do it for me.

Title: Re: Anorexia or obesity?
Post by The_Barnacle_Oh_Yeah on Jan 3rd, 2015 at 10:52am

Lord Herbert wrote on Jan 2nd, 2015 at 9:11am:
Something in the dyes, preservatives, and artificial flavouring chemicals in our Supermarket foods is lowering or damaging the immune system.


Gees Herbert you are sounding like a tree hugging hippy.

"artificial" and "chemicals" are emotive words that the paranoid like to use to criticize modern food practices. Modern food is much safer than it used to be. Typhoid, salmonella and many of the "natural" parasites that used to be present in our food is no longer there thanks to modern processing.

Those children who died drinking raw milk are a classic example of this.

Title: Re: Anorexia or obesity?
Post by Lord Herbert on Jan 3rd, 2015 at 10:59am

The_Barnacle wrote on Jan 3rd, 2015 at 10:52am:

Lord Herbert wrote on Jan 2nd, 2015 at 9:11am:
Something in the dyes, preservatives, and artificial flavouring chemicals in our Supermarket foods is lowering or damaging the immune system.


Gees Herbert you are sounding like a tree hugging hippy.

"artificial" and "chemicals" are emotive words that the paranoid like to use to criticize modern food practices. Modern food is much safer than it used to be. Typhoid, salmonella and many of the "natural" parasites that used to be present in our food is no longer there thanks to modern processing.

Those children who died drinking raw milk are a classic example of this.


Riiiiiight .... and that's what the 'experts' said about asbestos until somebody broke rank and blew the whistle ... 30 years later.

Title: Re: Anorexia or obesity?
Post by AiA on Jan 4th, 2015 at 2:20am

Lord Herbert wrote on Jan 2nd, 2015 at 12:12pm:
Ah! Look what I've just come across ...


"Most cases of cancer are the result of ‘bad luck’ rather than unhealthy lifestyles, diet or even inherited genes, claim scientists.

For two out of three cancer victims, the cumulative effect of random mistakes in genes is to blame for the disease rather than poor choices about how they lived their lives or ‘chose’ their parents.

Previously experts have estimated that 30-40 per cent of cancer cases would be avoided given a better lifestyle, but there has been no similar calculation about whether the remainder can be prevented".


link


If you had really taken the time to understand this theory (Take the number of cells in an organ, identify what percentage of them are long-lived stem cells, and determine how many times the stem cells divide. With every division, there’s a risk of a cancer-causing mutation in a daughter cell) you would have seen 1) it is contrary to what you have posted previously about genetics being responsible for most illness or lack of illness and 2) Cancer may be bad luck, but smokers, diabetics, the obese, those who don't sleep enough, etc. are unquestionably running out of luck more rapidly.

This theory suggests there is a relationship between risk of cancer and number of cell divisions. But it says nothing about the proportion of cancers due to cell division.

Title: Re: Anorexia or obesity?
Post by The_Barnacle_Oh_Yeah on Jan 4th, 2015 at 10:31am

Lord Herbert wrote on Jan 3rd, 2015 at 10:59am:
and that's what the 'experts' said about asbestos until somebody broke rank and blew the whistle ... 30 years later.


That argument is a false dichotomy.
There is absolutely no scientific evidence that preservatives or artificial colors are harmful to humans.

Title: Re: Anorexia or obesity?
Post by The_Barnacle_Oh_Yeah on Jan 4th, 2015 at 10:44am

Lord Herbert wrote on Jan 2nd, 2015 at 12:12pm:
Ah! Look what I've just come across ...


"Most cases of cancer are the result of ‘bad luck’ rather than unhealthy lifestyles, diet or even inherited genes, claim scientists.

For two out of three cancer victims, the cumulative effect of random mistakes in genes is to blame for the disease rather than poor choices about how they lived their lives or ‘chose’ their parents.

Previously experts have estimated that 30-40 per cent of cancer cases would be avoided given a better lifestyle, but there has been no similar calculation about whether the remainder can be prevented".


link


Which means that there are still 35% of cancers due to inherited genes and lifestyle.
So lifestyle improvements will still REDUCE your risk of getting cancer

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