MeisterEckhart wrote on Feb 10^th, 2026 at 9:54am:

freediver wrote on Feb 10th, 2026 at 9:44am: All of the Muslim "holy sites" in Israel are fairly recent historical inventions. Mostly Muslims trying to make a bit of money of the religious fervor. The site of the al-Aqsa Mosque has been considered one of the holiest sites of Islam since Islam's founding. All sites associated with the Abrahamic prophets have always been holy in Islam.

Muhammad never made any reference at all to a mosque in modern day Israel. Jerusalem is not mentioned anywhere in the Quran. Muhammad never actually travelled to Jerusalem, or anywhere near Israel, other than in his mystical "night journey" referred to in Surah 17. Scholars immediately after his death debated whether Surah 17 (now taken to be a reference to the mosque) was a place in heaven or somewhere near Mecca.

Later Caliphs built a wooden mosque somewhere in the area, but no-one knows where.

Eventually Muslims started to link Surah 17 with a mosque at the current location, but this is more a reflection of the effective propaganda by Muslim leaders who wanted to promote the mosque rather than a basis in Islam's founding.

Can you find a single reference that identifies the location in Jerusalem from either before Muhammad died or before a later leader decided to build a mosque there and claim the link?

Quote:

The site of the al-Aqsa Mosque has been considered one of the holiest sites of Islam since Islam's founding.

Muslims located between Jerusalem and Mecca when praying turn  their a-holes on Jerusalem and al-Aqsa, which is sign of disrespect.

freediver wrote on Feb 10^th, 2026 at 10:09am:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Feb 10th, 2026 at 9:54am: freediver wrote on Feb 10th, 2026 at 9:44am: All of the Muslim "holy sites" in Israel are fairly recent historical inventions. Mostly Muslims trying to make a bit of money of the religious fervor. The site of the al-Aqsa Mosque has been considered one of the holiest sites of Islam since Islam's founding. All sites associated with the Abrahamic prophets have always been holy in Islam. Muhammad never made any reference at all to a mosque in modern day Israel. Jerusalem is not mentioned anywhere in the Quran. Muhammad never actually travelled to Jerusalem, or anywhere near Israel, other than in his mystical "night journey" referred to in Surah 17. Scholars immediately after his death debated whether Surah 17 (now taken to be a reference to the mosque) was a place in heaven or somewhere near Mecca. Later Caliphs built a wooden mosque somewhere in the area, but no-one knows where. Eventually Muslims started to link Surah 17 with a mosque at the current location, but this is more a reflection of the effective propaganda by Muslim leaders who wanted to promote the mosque rather than a basis in Islam's founding. Can you find a single reference that identifies the location in Jerusalem from either before Muhammad died or before a later leader decided to build a mosque there and claim the link?

This is how I know you've never had any religious education or education on the history of religions.

Doesn't stop you farting out an 'opinion', but.

Neither Jesus nor Muhammad advocated for a new religion... You could try Googling it... but it might break your brain.

Quote:

The site of the al-Aqsa Mosque has been considered one of the holiest sites of Islam since Islam's founding.

Can you find a single reference that identifies the location of the al-Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem from either before Muhammad died or before a later leader decided to build a mosque there and claim the link?

At the time of Islam's founding, how exactly did Muslims consider the site to be one of the holiest in Islam if they had never heard of it, nor been there?

Quote:

Neither Jesus nor Muhammad advocated for a new religion

Jesus did not advocate for "Christianity" as a formal, distinct religion, nor did he use the term.
As a Jew, Jesus lived, taught, and died within Judaism. He focused on fulfilling the Law of Moses, preaching the Kingdom of God.

On another hand Muhammad is regarded by Muslims as the founder of Islam and was the primary advocate who preached and established its teachings
.

freediver wrote on Feb 10^th, 2026 at 11:07am:

Quote: The site of the al-Aqsa Mosque has been considered one of the holiest sites of Islam since Islam's founding. Can you find a single reference that identifies the location of the al-Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem from either before Muhammad died or before a later leader decided to build a mosque there and claim the link? At the time of Islam's founding, how exactly did Muslims consider the site to be one of the holiest in Islam if they had never heard of it, nor been there?

The myth of Muhammad's night flight from Mecca to the site of the al-Aqsa Mosque was mentioned in the 17th surah of the Qur'an, Al-Isra, which was revealed during the Meccan period (approx. 615–619 CE).

I'll leave you to Google why the site is holy to all three Abrahamic religions.

tallowood wrote on Feb 10^th, 2026 at 11:12am:

Quote: Neither Jesus nor Muhammad advocated for a new religion Jesus did not advocate for "Christianity" as a formal, distinct religion, nor did he use the term. As a Jew, Jesus lived, taught, and died within Judaism. He focused on fulfilling the Law of Moses, preaching the Kingdom of God. On another hand Muhammad is regarded by Muslims as the founder of Islam and was the primary advocate who preached and established its teachings .

Geez, can't you lot be arsed even Googling reliable religious sources?

Muhammad did not advocate for a new religion. He advocated for a rededication of the children of Ishmael to the laws of Allah as revealed to the prophets, himself included.

MeisterEckhart wrote on Feb 10^th, 2026 at 11:17am:

tallowood wrote on Feb 10th, 2026 at 11:12am: Quote: Neither Jesus nor Muhammad advocated for a new religion Jesus did not advocate for "Christianity" as a formal, distinct religion, nor did he use the term. As a Jew, Jesus lived, taught, and died within Judaism. He focused on fulfilling the Law of Moses, preaching the Kingdom of God. On another hand Muhammad is regarded by Muslims as the founder of Islam and was the primary advocate who preached and established its teachings . Geez, can't you lot be arsed even Googling reliable religious sources? Muhammad did not advocate for a new religion. He advocated for a rededication of the children of Ishmael to the laws of Allah as revealed to the prophets, himself included.

Googling shows that you don't know the subject.

tallowood wrote on Feb 10^th, 2026 at 11:31am:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Feb 10th, 2026 at 11:17am: tallowood wrote on Feb 10th, 2026 at 11:12am: Quote: Neither Jesus nor Muhammad advocated for a new religion Jesus did not advocate for "Christianity" as a formal, distinct religion, nor did he use the term. As a Jew, Jesus lived, taught, and died within Judaism. He focused on fulfilling the Law of Moses, preaching the Kingdom of God. On another hand Muhammad is regarded by Muslims as the founder of Islam and was the primary advocate who preached and established its teachings . Geez, can't you lot be arsed even Googling reliable religious sources? Muhammad did not advocate for a new religion. He advocated for a rededication of the children of Ishmael to the laws of Allah as revealed to the prophets, himself included. Googling shows that you don't know the subject.

Well, you don't... Do you have another way? Buying a book?

MeisterEckhart wrote on Feb 10^th, 2026 at 11:35am:

tallowood wrote on Feb 10th, 2026 at 11:31am: MeisterEckhart wrote on Feb 10th, 2026 at 11:17am: tallowood wrote on Feb 10th, 2026 at 11:12am: Quote: Neither Jesus nor Muhammad advocated for a new religion Jesus did not advocate for "Christianity" as a formal, distinct religion, nor did he use the term. As a Jew, Jesus lived, taught, and died within Judaism. He focused on fulfilling the Law of Moses, preaching the Kingdom of God. On another hand Muhammad is regarded by Muslims as the founder of Islam and was the primary advocate who preached and established its teachings . Geez, can't you lot be arsed even Googling reliable religious sources? Muhammad did not advocate for a new religion. He advocated for a rededication of the children of Ishmael to the laws of Allah as revealed to the prophets, himself included. Googling shows that you don't know the subject. Well, you don't... Do you have another way? Buying a book?

No, you don't but you fantasize a lot. Have you tried to write a book of melodrama fantasies?

tallowood wrote on Feb 10^th, 2026 at 11:43am:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Feb 10th, 2026 at 11:35am: tallowood wrote on Feb 10th, 2026 at 11:31am: MeisterEckhart wrote on Feb 10th, 2026 at 11:17am: tallowood wrote on Feb 10th, 2026 at 11:12am: Quote: Neither Jesus nor Muhammad advocated for a new religion Jesus did not advocate for "Christianity" as a formal, distinct religion, nor did he use the term. As a Jew, Jesus lived, taught, and died within Judaism. He focused on fulfilling the Law of Moses, preaching the Kingdom of God. On another hand Muhammad is regarded by Muslims as the founder of Islam and was the primary advocate who preached and established its teachings . Geez, can't you lot be arsed even Googling reliable religious sources? Muhammad did not advocate for a new religion. He advocated for a rededication of the children of Ishmael to the laws of Allah as revealed to the prophets, himself included. Googling shows that you don't know the subject. Well, you don't... Do you have another way? Buying a book? No, you don't but you fantasize a lot. Have you tried to write a book of melodrama fantasies?

Here’s some homework for you…


What were Paul’s thoughts on the miracles??

What did Peter say of them to Paul during the years they traveled together?

What did James say to Paul about Paul’s deviation from the message of ‘the way’?

MeisterEckhart wrote on Feb 10^th, 2026 at 11:53am:

tallowood wrote on Feb 10th, 2026 at 11:43am: MeisterEckhart wrote on Feb 10th, 2026 at 11:35am: tallowood wrote on Feb 10th, 2026 at 11:31am: MeisterEckhart wrote on Feb 10th, 2026 at 11:17am: tallowood wrote on Feb 10th, 2026 at 11:12am: Quote: Neither Jesus nor Muhammad advocated for a new religion Jesus did not advocate for "Christianity" as a formal, distinct religion, nor did he use the term. As a Jew, Jesus lived, taught, and died within Judaism. He focused on fulfilling the Law of Moses, preaching the Kingdom of God. On another hand Muhammad is regarded by Muslims as the founder of Islam and was the primary advocate who preached and established its teachings . Geez, can't you lot be arsed even Googling reliable religious sources? Muhammad did not advocate for a new religion. He advocated for a rededication of the children of Ishmael to the laws of Allah as revealed to the prophets, himself included. Googling shows that you don't know the subject. Well, you don't... Do you have another way? Buying a book? No, you don't but you fantasize a lot. Have you tried to write a book of melodrama fantasies? Here’s some homework for you… What were Paul’s thoughts on the miracles?? What did Peter say of them to Paul during the years they traveled together? What did James say to Paul about Paul’s deviation from the message of ‘the way’?

They said nothing about al-Aqsa Mosque, which proves that you are not in the topic  ;D

tallowood wrote on Feb 10^th, 2026 at 11:57am:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Feb 10th, 2026 at 11:53am: tallowood wrote on Feb 10th, 2026 at 11:43am: MeisterEckhart wrote on Feb 10th, 2026 at 11:35am: tallowood wrote on Feb 10th, 2026 at 11:31am: MeisterEckhart wrote on Feb 10th, 2026 at 11:17am: tallowood wrote on Feb 10th, 2026 at 11:12am: Quote: Neither Jesus nor Muhammad advocated for a new religion Jesus did not advocate for "Christianity" as a formal, distinct religion, nor did he use the term. As a Jew, Jesus lived, taught, and died within Judaism. He focused on fulfilling the Law of Moses, preaching the Kingdom of God. On another hand Muhammad is regarded by Muslims as the founder of Islam and was the primary advocate who preached and established its teachings . Geez, can't you lot be arsed even Googling reliable religious sources? Muhammad did not advocate for a new religion. He advocated for a rededication of the children of Ishmael to the laws of Allah as revealed to the prophets, himself included. Googling shows that you don't know the subject. Well, you don't... Do you have another way? Buying a book? No, you don't but you fantasize a lot. Have you tried to write a book of melodrama fantasies? Here’s some homework for you… What were Paul’s thoughts on the miracles?? What did Peter say of them to Paul during the years they traveled together? What did James say to Paul about Paul’s deviation from the message of ‘the way’? They said nothing about al-Aqsa Mosque, which proves that you are not in the topic  ;D

They said and did a lot about the site of the al-Aqua mosque… but you wouldn’t know.that…

MeisterEckhart wrote on Feb 10^th, 2026 at 11:14am:

freediver wrote on Feb 10th, 2026 at 11:07am: Quote: The site of the al-Aqsa Mosque has been considered one of the holiest sites of Islam since Islam's founding. Can you find a single reference that identifies the location of the al-Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem from either before Muhammad died or before a later leader decided to build a mosque there and claim the link? At the time of Islam's founding, how exactly did Muslims consider the site to be one of the holiest in Islam if they had never heard of it, nor been there? The myth of Muhammad's night flight from Mecca to the site of the al-Aqsa Mosque was mentioned in the 17th surah of the Qur'an, Al-Isra, which was revealed during the Meccan period (approx. 615–619 CE). I'll leave you to Google why the site is holy to all three Abrahamic religions.

I talked about Surah 17 in the opening post Meister. Did you not notice?

The current site, in Jerusalem, is not mentioned in Surah 17. The Surah also does not refer to "the site of the Mosque". It literally says "the farthest Mosque". Hence the debate among scholars at the time as to whether he was referring to an actual mosque, somewhere near Mecca, or some place in heaven.

Is it too much to ask that you at least make sense Meister?

Can you find a single reference that identifies the location of the al-Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem from either before Muhammad died or before a later leader decided to build a mosque there and claim the link?

At the time of Islam's founding, how exactly did Muslims consider the site to be one of the holiest in Islam if they had never heard of it, nor been there?

MeisterEckhart wrote on Feb 10^th, 2026 at 12:00pm:

tallowood wrote on Feb 10th, 2026 at 11:57am: MeisterEckhart wrote on Feb 10th, 2026 at 11:53am: tallowood wrote on Feb 10th, 2026 at 11:43am: MeisterEckhart wrote on Feb 10th, 2026 at 11:35am: tallowood wrote on Feb 10th, 2026 at 11:31am: MeisterEckhart wrote on Feb 10th, 2026 at 11:17am: tallowood wrote on Feb 10th, 2026 at 11:12am: Quote: Neither Jesus nor Muhammad advocated for a new religion Jesus did not advocate for "Christianity" as a formal, distinct religion, nor did he use the term. As a Jew, Jesus lived, taught, and died within Judaism. He focused on fulfilling the Law of Moses, preaching the Kingdom of God. On another hand Muhammad is regarded by Muslims as the founder of Islam and was the primary advocate who preached and established its teachings . Geez, can't you lot be arsed even Googling reliable religious sources? Muhammad did not advocate for a new religion. He advocated for a rededication of the children of Ishmael to the laws of Allah as revealed to the prophets, himself included. Googling shows that you don't know the subject. Well, you don't... Do you have another way? Buying a book? No, you don't but you fantasize a lot. Have you tried to write a book of melodrama fantasies? Here’s some homework for you… What were Paul’s thoughts on the miracles?? What did Peter say of them to Paul during the years they traveled together? What did James say to Paul about Paul’s deviation from the message of ‘the way’? They said nothing about al-Aqsa Mosque, which proves that you are not in the topic  ;D They said and did a lot about the site of the al-Aqua mosque… but you wouldn’t know.that…

Stop lying, they talked about Jewish Temple not about al-Aqua mosque.

freediver wrote on Feb 10^th, 2026 at 12:02pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Feb 10th, 2026 at 11:14am: freediver wrote on Feb 10th, 2026 at 11:07am: Quote: The site of the al-Aqsa Mosque has been considered one of the holiest sites of Islam since Islam's founding. Can you find a single reference that identifies the location of the al-Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem from either before Muhammad died or before a later leader decided to build a mosque there and claim the link? At the time of Islam's founding, how exactly did Muslims consider the site to be one of the holiest in Islam if they had never heard of it, nor been there? The myth of Muhammad's night flight from Mecca to the site of the al-Aqsa Mosque was mentioned in the 17th surah of the Qur'an, Al-Isra, which was revealed during the Meccan period (approx. 615–619 CE). I'll leave you to Google why the site is holy to all three Abrahamic religions. I talked about Surah 17 in the opening post Meister. Did you not notice? The current site, in Jerusalem, is not mentioned in Surah 17. The Surah also does not refer to "the site of the Mosque". It literally says "the farthest Mosque". Hence the debate among scholars at the time as to whether he was referring to an actual mosque, somewhere near Mecca, or some place in heaven. Is it too much to ask that you at least make sense Meister? Can you find a single reference that identifies the location of the al-Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem from either before Muhammad died or before a later leader decided to build a mosque there and claim the link? At the time of Islam's founding, how exactly did Muslims consider the site to be one of the holiest in Islam if they had never heard of it, nor been there?

Your usual effete bitchy response, I see.

Of course neither Muhammad nor his peers spoke of a mosque that wasn’t built at the time. Muhammad knew of the former Jewish temple site and its significance to the faith he was intending to rededicate the children of Ishmael to.

I can see your understanding of religion dates only to a thin 20th century mindset… mixed with a whopping dollop of dunning-Kruger

Quote:

Muhammad knew of the former Jewish temple site and its significance to the faith

Can you find a single reference that identifies the site in Jerusalem from either Muhammad himself, from someone else before Muhammad died, or from before a later leader decided to build a mosque there and claim the link?

At the time of Islam's founding, how exactly did Muslims consider the site to be one of the holiest in Islam if they had never heard of it, nor been there?


Quote:

Of course neither Muhammad nor his peers spoke of a mosque that wasn’t built at the time.

Muhammad spoke of it in Surah 17. Remember? He just never said anything about Jerusalem. He spoke a lot about things that don't exist, like flying carpets, ladders to heaven, puddles at the end of the world etc. But struggled with things that do exist.

freediver wrote on Feb 10^th, 2026 at 12:37pm:

Quote: Muhammad knew of the former Jewish temple site and its significance to the faith Can you find a single reference that identifies the site in Jerusalem from either Muhammad himself, from someone else before Muhammad died, or from before a later leader decided to build a mosque there and claim the link? At the time of Islam's founding, how exactly did Muslims consider the site to be one of the holiest in Islam if they had never heard of it, nor been there? [quote]Of course neither Muhammad nor his peers spoke of a mosque that wasn’t built at the time.

Muhammad spoke of it in Surah 17. Remember? He just never said anything about Jerusalem. He spoke a lot about things that don't exist, like flying carpets, ladders to heaven, puddles at the end of the world etc. But struggled with things that do exist.[/quote]
Muhammad’s style of oratory and what was written on his behalf indicates that he had learned from both Jews and messianic sect members and Christian sect members.

It’s not like Jerusalem was unknown to those living within the region… the city was already the most significant in Christendom.

Google AI:


According to Islamic tradition, the Prophet Muhammad traveled from Mecca to the Al-Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem on a winged, horse-like creature called the Buraq during the "Night Journey" (Isra' and Mi'raj) in 621 CE. Upon arriving at the Temple Mount (Haram al-Sharif), he tied the Buraq to the Wall, prayed at the site, and then ascended to heaven.

Key details regarding this event include:
The Location: The "farthest mosque" (al-masjid al-aqṣá) is traditionally identified with the entire Al-Aqsa Mosque compound in Jerusalem.


The Ascent: While the journey landed at Al-Aqsa, the specific ascension to heaven (Mi'raj) is commonly associated with the rock located inside the Dome of the Rock, which is part of the same compound.
Significance: The event established Jerusalem as the third holiest city in Islam, as it was the site of this miraculous journey and the first Qibla (direction of prayer).


The Buraq: Described as a white, winged beast, smaller than a mule but larger than a donkey, which carried Muhammad between heaven and earth.


The entire Al-Aqsa compound, including the Dome of the Rock and the Al-Qibli Mosque, holds immense religious significance, representing the location where Muhammad led previous prophets in prayer and ascended through the seven heavens to meet God.

MeisterEckhart wrote on Feb 10^th, 2026 at 12:53pm:

freediver wrote on Feb 10th, 2026 at 12:37pm: Quote: Muhammad knew of the former Jewish temple site and its significance to the faith Can you find a single reference that identifies the site in Jerusalem from either Muhammad himself, from someone else before Muhammad died, or from before a later leader decided to build a mosque there and claim the link? At the time of Islam's founding, how exactly did Muslims consider the site to be one of the holiest in Islam if they had never heard of it, nor been there? [quote]Of course neither Muhammad nor his peers spoke of a mosque that wasn’t built at the time. Muhammad spoke of it in Surah 17. Remember? He just never said anything about Jerusalem. He spoke a lot about things that don't exist, like flying carpets, ladders to heaven, puddles at the end of the world etc. But struggled with things that do exist.

Muhammad’s style of oratory and what was written on his behalf indicates that he had learned from both Jews and messianic sect members and Christian sect members.

It’s not like Jerusalem was unknown to those living within the region… the city was already the most significant in Christendom.
[/quote]

So Muhammad could have easily referred to Jerusalem, if that was his intention?

Can you find a single reference that identifies the site in Jerusalem as the al-Aqsa Mosque from either Muhammad himself, from someone else before Muhammad died, or from before a later leader decided to build a mosque there and claim the link?

At the time of Islam's founding, how exactly did Muslims consider the site to be one of the holiest in Islam if, despite knowing about the existence of the city, they never talked about it being a holy site, nor visited there?

FD,

Quote:

At the time of Islam's founding, how exactly did Muslims consider the site to be one of the holiest in Islam

Muhammad ascended to heaven from the Al-Aqsa Mosque riding a horse with wings.
That makes it a holy site.

What don't you understand?

What terrified the disunited Arabs at the time of Justinians attempt to reunify the two Roman empires was that a Christianised united Roman Empire would descend south and conquer Arab lands, which made the need for a shared religion or binding philosophy to be adopted by all the Arab tribes.

Islam was inevitable.

freediver wrote on Feb 10^th, 2026 at 1:29pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Feb 10th, 2026 at 12:53pm: freediver wrote on Feb 10th, 2026 at 12:37pm: Quote: Muhammad knew of the former Jewish temple site and its significance to the faith Can you find a single reference that identifies the site in Jerusalem from either Muhammad himself, from someone else before Muhammad died, or from before a later leader decided to build a mosque there and claim the link? At the time of Islam's founding, how exactly did Muslims consider the site to be one of the holiest in Islam if they had never heard of it, nor been there? [quote]Of course neither Muhammad nor his peers spoke of a mosque that wasn’t built at the time. Muhammad spoke of it in Surah 17. Remember? He just never said anything about Jerusalem. He spoke a lot about things that don't exist, like flying carpets, ladders to heaven, puddles at the end of the world etc. But struggled with things that do exist. Muhammad’s style of oratory and what was written on his behalf indicates that he had learned from both Jews and messianic sect members and Christian sect members. It’s not like Jerusalem was unknown to those living within the region… the city was already the most significant in Christendom.

So Muhammad could have easily referred to Jerusalem, if that was his intention?

Can you find a single reference that identifies the site in Jerusalem as the al-Aqsa Mosque from either Muhammad himself, from someone else before Muhammad died, or from before a later leader decided to build a mosque there and claim the link?

At the time of Islam's founding, how exactly did Muslims consider the site to be one of the holiest in Islam if, despite knowing about the existence of the city, they never talked about it being a holy site, nor visited there?[/quote]
I know there is no external cure for idiocy or dunning-Kruger…

Jerusalem was already the major centre of Christendom for 300 years before Muhammad.

It’s significance was well-known to arabs, although it’s almost certain few would have made a pilgrimage there as it was not at the time religiously significant to them.

Christian focus on the city meant that sooner or later a Christian army would move from there into Arabia.

freediver wrote on Feb 10^th, 2026 at 11:07am:

Quote: The site of the al-Aqsa Mosque has been considered one of the holiest sites of Islam since Islam's founding. Can you find a single reference that identifies the location of the al-Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem from either before Muhammad died or before a later leader decided to build a mosque there and claim the link?

Re the link: both the  Mosque and the iconic Dome of the Rock were built soon after the Islamic conquest in the 7th century, on foundations of the last Jewish temple which had been destroyed by the Romans over half a millennium earlier.


Quote:

At the time of Islam's founding, how exactly did Muslims consider the site to be one of the holiest in Islam if they had never heard of it, nor been there?

(google)

The Koran does mention a miraculous night journey to Jerusalem, which serves as the starting point for his ascension to heaven (the Mi'raj).

This event is mentioned in Surah Al-Isra, verse 1, describing a journey from Al-Masjid-al-Haram in Makkah to Al-Masjid-al-Aqsa. This journey is known as Al-Isra (the night journey to Jerusalem) and Al-Mi'raj (the ascension from Jerusalem to the heavens). While Jerusalem is not explicitly named in the Quran, it is identified as the location of Al-Aqsa Mosque in later Islamic tradition. The details of his ascension and return to Makkah are found in the Hadith.

The Prophet of course based his new religion on the stories of the OT prophets, he would have known of the general locality of the ancient religion; while his successors identfied the site  (as noted above).

Re the Islamic conquest itself (several decades after the Prophet's death):

(google)

The Surrender:

Patriarch Sophronius, the Byzantine leader of the city, agreed to surrender but insisted on surrendering directly to the Caliph. Caliph Umar traveled from Medina to Jerusalem to receive the submission of the city personally.

The Covenant:

Umar signed a treaty, known as the "Umar's Assurance" or "Umariyya Covenant," which guaranteed the safety of the Christian inhabitants, their property, and their churches.

Significance:

This marked the end of nearly 500 years of Roman/Byzantine rule and allowed Jews to return to the city

You missed the point completely TGD.

freediver wrote on Feb 10^th, 2026 at 2:47pm:

You missed the point completely TGD.

No I didnt:  read my edit and get  back to me.

You no longer seem to be telling us what the point is, but you are still no closer to it.

thegreatdivide wrote on Feb 10^th, 2026 at 2:44pm:

freediver wrote on Feb 10th, 2026 at 11:07am: Quote: The site of the al-Aqsa Mosque has been considered one of the holiest sites of Islam since Islam's founding. Can you find a single reference that identifies the location of the al-Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem from either before Muhammad died or before a later leader decided to build a mosque there and claim the link? Re the link: both the  Mosque and the iconic Dome of the Rock were built soon after the Islamic conquest in the 7th century, on foundations of the last Jewish temple which had been destroyed by the Romans over half a millennium earlier. [quote]At the time of Islam's founding, how exactly did Muslims consider the site to be one of the holiest in Islam if they had never heard of it, nor been there?

(google)

The Koran does mention a miraculous night journey to Jerusalem, which serves as the starting point for his ascension to heaven (the Mi'raj).

This event is mentioned in Surah Al-Isra, verse 1, describing a journey from Al-Masjid-al-Haram in Makkah to Al-Masjid-al-Aqsa. This journey is known as Al-Isra (the night journey to Jerusalem) and Al-Mi'raj (the ascension from Jerusalem to the heavens). While Jerusalem is not explicitly named in the Quran, it is identified as the location of Al-Aqsa Mosque in later Islamic tradition. The details of his ascension and return to Makkah are found in the Hadith.

The Prophet of course based his new religion on the stories of the OT prophets, he would have known of the general locality of the ancient religion; while his successors identfied the site  (as noted above).

Re the Islamic conquest itself (several decades after the Prophet's death):

(google)

The Surrender:

Patriarch Sophronius, the Byzantine leader of the city, agreed to surrender but insisted on surrendering directly to the Caliph. Caliph Umar traveled from Medina to Jerusalem to receive the submission of the city personally.

The Covenant:

Umar signed a treaty, known as the "Umar's Assurance" or "Umariyya Covenant," which guaranteed the safety of the Christian inhabitants, their property, and their churches.

Significance:

This marked the end of nearly 500 years of Roman/Byzantine rule and allowed Jews to return to the city



[/quote]
Yes, the significance of the old Jewish temple site and, specifically, the exact site of the Holy of Holies, the innermost sanctum of the former temple, became one of the paramount sites for a faith that intended to expand Abrahamic monotheism.

That Muhammad incorporated it into the core teachings of his rededication to the Abrahamic religion, which Arabs could claim descent through Ishmael, was inevitable.
 

MeisterEckhart wrote on Feb 10^th, 2026 at 1:48pm:

What terrified the disunited Arabs at the time of Justinians attempt to reunify the two Roman empires was that a Christianised united Roman Empire would descend south and conquer Arab lands, which made the need for a shared religion or binding philosophy to be adopted by all the Arab tribes. Islam was inevitable.

;D ;D ;D ;D


Mohammed invented Islam to keep the rabbits out!!

freediver wrote on Feb 10^th, 2026 at 3:05pm:

You no longer seem to be telling us what the point is, but you are still no closer to it.

Your comprehension powers crippled?

While Jerusalem is not explicitly named in the Quran, it is identified as the location of Al-Aqsa Mosque in later Islamic tradition. The details of his ascension and return to Makkah are found in the Hadith.

Ie, the site of the Prophet's ascension to heaven, which IS mentioned in the Koran, with details deveioped in the Hadith

Hence the "holy site".

"Hadith" the recorded, oral traditions containing the sayings, actions, and silent approvals of the Prophet Muhammad, serving as a foundational guide for Islamic law and daily life. Second in authority only to the Quran, these reports (or "traditions") help define the Sunnah (established custom) of the Prophet.

Frank wrote on Feb 10^th, 2026 at 3:33pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Feb 10th, 2026 at 1:48pm: What terrified the disunited Arabs at the time of Justinians attempt to reunify the two Roman empires was that a Christianised united Roman Empire would descend south and conquer Arab lands, which made the need for a shared religion or binding philosophy to be adopted by all the Arab tribes. Islam was inevitable. ;D ;D ;D ;D Mohammed invented Islam to keep the rabbits out!!

He didn't invent Islam; he advocated for the Arabs to dedicate themselves to monotheistic belief, one of the reasons being to unite them as one against the threat of invasion and cultural dominance by another monotheistic people - Christianised Europeans.

Exactly as Constantine had done in Europe 300 years earlier.


Arabs, by Muhammad's time, were well aware of what happens to a people who resisted Christianisation by the western (Roman) and eastern (Byzantine) branches of the religion.

Quote:

While Jerusalem is not explicitly named in the Quran, it is identified as the location of Al-Aqsa Mosque in later Islamic tradition.

Duh. That is my point. It's what I said in the OP.


Quote:

He didn't invent Islam

He claimed to get revelations directly from God (kill the Jews, etc). If that is not inventing a religion, what is?

google

The Dome of the Rock was built between 685 and 691/2 C.E. by Umayyad Caliph Abd al-Malik in Jerusalem to establish a major religious center and mark the triumph of Islam. It was designed to protect the sacred rock (Foundation Stone) on the Temple Mount, believed to be the site of Prophet Muhammad's night journey to heaven.

Key motivations for the construction of the Dome of the Rock included:

Religious Significance:

The site is associated with the Prophet’s Night Journey (al-mi'raj) to heaven, and the rock itself is considered the point from which creation began.

Political Consolidation:

Caliph Abd al-Malik sought to secure his authority during a civil war with rival rulers in Mecca, making Jerusalem a crucial religious center for his supporters.
Rivalry with Other Faiths: The structure was designed to match and even rival the grandeur of nearby Christian, Byzantine-era churches, such as the Church of the Holy Sepulchre, and to assert Islam's status against the older Abrahamic faiths.

Rebuilding Solomon's Temple: It was also seen as a continuation or reconstruction of the Temple of Solomon (Mihrab Dawud) on the Temple Mount.
While often mistaken for a mosque, the Dome of the Rock was originally intended to function as a mashhad, a shrine for pilgrims.

Same motvations  apply to the al-Aqsa mosque.

What is YOUR point?

freediver wrote on Feb 10^th, 2026 at 3:47pm:

Quote: He didn't invent Islam He claimed to get revelations directly from God (kill the Jews, etc). If that is not inventing a religion, what is?

I've yet to read anything you've posted that shows you know anything you post about...

All Jewish prophets claimed revelations directly from god. Muhammad was making the same claims all these prophets made, including Jesus... not to create a new religion.

The term Christian was initially a term of derision applied to those who had 'fallen' for Pauline Judaism - to insult and belittle Paul's teachings as not Judaism.

Quote:

Caliph Abd al-Malik sought to secure his authority during a civil war with rival rulers in Mecca, making Jerusalem a crucial religious center for his supporters.

And abra cadabra, the mosque he just built is suddenly the one Muhammad referred to in the Quran and the 3rd holiest site in Islam.


Quote:

All Jewish prophets claimed revelations directly from god. Muhammad was making the same claims all these prophets made, including Jesus... not to create a new religion.

Those prophets created Judaism and Christianity. So Muhammad did the same thing, but did not create Islam?

freediver wrote on Feb 10^th, 2026 at 3:47pm:

Quote: While Jerusalem is not explicitly named in the Quran, it is identified as the location of Al-Aqsa Mosque in later Islamic tradition. Duh. That is my point. It's what I said in the OP.

So you deny the significance of the site to Islam because it's locality, not named in the Koran, was determined after the Prophet's death.


Quote:

He claimed to get revelations directly from God (kill the Jews, etc). If that is not inventing a religion, what is?

So he did not invent the tradition of Jerusalem as a holy site, his followers did.

You can read why in my previous post.   

Quote:

So you deny the significance of the site to Islam because it's locality, not named in the Koran, was determined after the Prophet's death.

Wow. Three pages in and you have already caught up with what I posted in the OP. I should have known you were in speedy mode when you opened by telling everyone what the real point was.

For those who struggle with the concept of monotheism...

In the Abrahamic tradition, any religion that strays from the first major monotheistic canon - that of the Talmud and the Torah, from which it takes its inspiration- was not considered monotheistic; the 'new' religion was considered to be worshipping another god.

As such, no one who claimed to be an Abrahamic prophet would think of declaring their beliefs a new religion.

It's also one of the reasons the 3 religions fight with each other - for hegemony over monotheism.

The one god in Jerusalem, Rome and Mecca must be the same... otherwise you've got three... And if there's only one god, there can only be one canon...

freediver wrote on Feb 10^th, 2026 at 3:59pm:

And abra cadabra, the mosque he just built is suddenly the one Muhammad referred to in the Quran and the 3rd holiest site in Islam. Quote: All Jewish prophets claimed revelations directly from god. Muhammad was making the same claims all these prophets made, including Jesus... not to create a new religion. Those prophets created Judaism and Christianity. So Muhammad did the same thing, but did not create Islam?

Have you thought of what you want to be when you grow up?

No single prophet created Judaism; each is considered to be a continuation of Yahweh's revelations to his chosen people.

No prophet created the religion of Christianity, nor claimed to. Paul considered his Judaism to be the Judaism of the Gentiles.

Muhammad did not create the 'new' religion of Islam. If he'd done so, he would have had to concede that Allah was not Yahweh.

And that's why you think Muhammad didn't invent Islam?

freediver wrote on Feb 10^th, 2026 at 4:35pm:

And that's why you think Muhammad didn't invent Islam?

Muhammad did not 'invent' Islam.

His teachings were a rededication to the Abrahamic faith in the one god that Arabs could claim religious descent from through Abraham's son, Ismael.

He claimed that the archangel Gabriel told him the revelations he'd received were a continuation of those given to the prophet descendants of the prophet Isaac, Ismael's brother.

freediver wrote on Feb 10^th, 2026 at 4:02pm:

Quote: So you deny the significance of the site to Islam because it's locality, not named in the Koran, was determined after the Prophet's death. Wow. Three pages in and you have already caught up with what I posted in the OP. I should have known you were in speedy mode when you opened by telling everyone what the real point was.

The OP:


Quote:

"Muhammad never made any reference at all to a mosque in modern day Israel.

First error: the Prophet (unlike Jesus who was 'God'.....) could not have known details of  his own ascension (unless 'God' told him).

2nd error: Muslims built the mosque and Dome O-T-R in Jerusalem soon after the Prophet's death. The Koran had no concept of the future recreation of the then  long extinct state of Israel. 


Quote:

Jerusalem is not mentioned anywhere in the Quran.

But the mythology surrounding the ascension (mentioned in the Koran) and the place of creation was determined to be Jerusalem after the Prophet's death.

So why are denying the site's significance to Islam?

Because it's mythology - like the 'Chosen People' and the "Promised Land"?



Quote:

Muhammad never actually travelled to Jerusalem, or anywhere near Israel, other than in his mystical "night journey" referred to in Surah 17. Scholars immediately after his death debated whether Surah 17 (now taken to be a reference to the mosque) was a place in heaven or somewhere near Mecca."

And the caliph who conquered Jerusalem was soon followed by builders of the Mosque and Dome, built to establish the legitimacy of Islam's  mythology re creation and the Ascension.

(In contrast with Jewish "Promised Land" mythology, and  Christian  mythology re Jesus' death and the empty tomb).

Your point?

Quote:

But the mythology surrounding the ascension (mentioned in the Koran) and the place of creation was determined to be Jerusalem after the Prophet's death. So why are denying the site's significance to Islam?

You keep answering your own question.


Quote:

built to establish the legitimacy of Islam's  mythology re creation and the Ascension.

No. It was built because it happened to be useful to one of the competing Caliphs in a civil war to 'own' the third holiest site in Islam. Your own evidence. There was absolutely no issue of legitimacy before then. Scholars were happy to argue until they were blue in the face whether it was a reference to a Mosque near Mecca or to a place in heaven. Declaring it to be Jerusalem when it happened to be convenient to the Caliph during a civil war hardly lends legitimacy to the claim.

MeisterEckhart wrote on Feb 10^th, 2026 at 4:45pm:

freediver wrote on Feb 10th, 2026 at 4:35pm: And that's why you think Muhammad didn't invent Islam? Muhammad did not 'invent' Islam. His teachings were a rededication to the Abrahamic faith in the one god that Arabs could claim religious descent from through Abraham's son, Ismael. He claimed that the archangel Gabriel told him the revelations he'd received were a continuation of those given to the prophet descendants of the prophet Isaac, Ismael's brother.

He absolutely did invent it.

The whole of the Koran is a dreadful, turgid, incoherent invention of an illiterate pryapic merchant turned warlord who half understood Judaism and Christianity.

He offered his 'revelations' to the Jews firsf but when they laughed at him he turned murderous. The whole creed is dripping with inferiority comlex and the bok fetish of the illiterate.

Meister appears to be arguing that because Muhammad claimed to be revealing the true nature of previous religions, he did not invent Islam. It is yet another of his curious exercises in circular logic. Because we define Islam as a separate religion to Judaism and Christianity, it can't have been invented by Muhammad, because Muhammad (and Muslims to this day, including on this forum) insist it is actually the same religion.

He also appears to be projecting this same belief onto Christianity, though I have never heard a Christian argue that it is actually the same religion as Judaism.

It is actually almost impossible to talk to a Muslim about Judaism or Christianity, because they define those religions out of existence. They will only talk about Muhammad's various "corrections" to those religious beliefs. It comes across as extremely arrogant. It's like trying to talk to Meister about reality, and he asks you to define reality and point to it in the paperwork. But you have no difficulty talking to a Christian about Judaism or Islam.

Frank wrote on Feb 10^th, 2026 at 4:53pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Feb 10th, 2026 at 4:45pm: freediver wrote on Feb 10th, 2026 at 4:35pm: And that's why you think Muhammad didn't invent Islam? Muhammad did not 'invent' Islam. His teachings were a rededication to the Abrahamic faith in the one god that Arabs could claim religious descent from through Abraham's son, Ismael. He claimed that the archangel Gabriel told him the revelations he'd received were a continuation of those given to the prophet descendants of the prophet Isaac, Ismael's brother. He absolutely did invent it. The whole of the Koran is a dreadful, turgid, incoherent invention of an illiterate pryapic merchant turned warlord who half understood Judaism and Christianity. He offered his 'revelations' to the Jews firsf but when they laughed at him he turned murderous. The whole creed is dripping with inferiority comlex and the bok fetish of the illiterate.

So, like the Christians before him, then.

Judaism is non-proselytising, and Jews are aware of their status as the authentic Abrahamic monotheism. Yahweh chooses his chosen people, not mortals, either by force, persuasion or consciously by example.

Muhammad makes no mention of creating a new faith; he claims his revelations are a rededication and a continuation of the Abrahamic faith. That, like Christianity, Islam did become another faith is another story...

And both born with a hole in their hearts.

Both enforce their claim of being the one true faith over the other two by persuasion, coercion or blood... whichever works first.

MeisterEckhart wrote on Feb 10^th, 2026 at 5:51pm:

So, like the Christians before him, then. Judaism is non-proselytising, and Jews are aware of their status as the authentic Abrahamic monotheism. Yahweh chooses his chosen people, not mortals, either by force, persuasion or consciously by example. Muhammad makes no mention of creating a new faith; he claims his revelations are a rededication and a continuation of the Abrahamic faith. That, like Christianity, Islam did become another faith is another story... And both born with a hole in their hearts. Both enforce their claim of being the one true faith over the other two by persuasion, coercion or blood... whichever works first.

I saw a doco on TV once that claimed Mohammad started out as a Christian
spreading the words of Jesus but
it developed from there to him declaring himself a prophet.

freediver wrote on Feb 10^th, 2026 at 4:58pm:

Meister appears to be arguing that because Muhammad claimed to be revealing the true nature of previous religions, he did not invent Islam. It is yet another of his curious exercises in circular logic. Because we define Islam as a separate religion to Judaism and Christianity, it can't have been invented by Muhammad, because Muhammad (and Muslims to this day, including on this forum) insist it is actually the same religion. He also appears to be projecting this same belief onto Christianity, though I have never heard a Christian argue that it is actually the same religion as Judaism. It is actually almost impossible to talk to a Muslim about Judaism or Christianity, because they define those religions out of existence. They will only talk about Muhammad's various "corrections" to those religious beliefs. It comes across as extremely arrogant. It's like trying to talk to Meister about reality, and he asks you to define reality and point to it in the paperwork. But you have no difficulty talking to a Christian about Judaism or Islam.

You need to reconsider posting in topics like this. You do not have the intellect to carry an argument.

Of course you haven't heard of a Christian who thinks Christianity, or Muslims with Islam, claim it is the same as Judaism... at least not someone with your limited capacity in the subject can see.

Christians and Muslims both believe their respective faith is the one true Abrahamic faith that fulfils and supercedes the original... and they're prepared to kill those who'd deny it. Jews do not partake in the struggle... they're certain that theirs is the one true Abrahamic faith and that it's Yahweh who determines who is with his chosen people - who is of the one true Abrahamic faith, who is not and who is righteous among the gentiles.

For the rest, Jews do not believe that either Christians or Muslims worship the Abrahamic god.

Bobby. wrote on Feb 10^th, 2026 at 5:59pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Feb 10th, 2026 at 5:51pm: So, like the Christians before him, then. Judaism is non-proselytising, and Jews are aware of their status as the authentic Abrahamic monotheism. Yahweh chooses his chosen people, not mortals, either by force, persuasion or consciously by example. Muhammad makes no mention of creating a new faith; he claims his revelations are a rededication and a continuation of the Abrahamic faith. That, like Christianity, Islam did become another faith is another story... And both born with a hole in their hearts. Both enforce their claim of being the one true faith over the other two by persuasion, coercion or blood... whichever works first. I saw a doco on TV once that claimed Mohammad started out as a Christian spreading the words of Jesus but it developed from there to him declaring himself a prophet.

It's possible... he was believed to have been in contact with gnostics and monastic priests around the trading routes in Arabia.

The Koran has warm teachings of Jesus and particularly warm teachings of Mary.

Quote:

The site of the al-Aqsa Mosque has been considered one of the holiest sites of Islam since Islam's founding.

Can you find a single reference that identifies the site in Jerusalem as the al-Aqsa Mosque from either Muhammad himself, from someone else before Muhammad died, or from before a later leader decided to build a mosque there and claim the link?

At the time of Islam's founding, how exactly did Muslims consider the site to be one of the holiest in Islam if, despite knowing about the existence of the city, they never talked about it being a holy site, nor visited there?