Only a colossal asshat like Trump could possibly say something as insanely deranged as this and only his MAGA cult members could be deranged enough to think it's a good idea. Seriously, the TDS is strong among the hardcore MAGA cult members. Trump reckons that Zelensky hasn't shown him enough gratitude and that if Zelensky doesn't agree to this deal this week then Ukraine will no longer be supported by the United States. You have to ask if Trump is on some form of illegal drugs, because not much else explains how he could possibly pressure Zelensky to accept a deal that heavily favours Putin (who started the war, after all) and leaves Ukraine with less territory and a smaller military, among other things.

Zelensky should respond with a hard no and tell Trump to shove his "peace deal" where the sun don't shine and instead start working solely with European leaders to come up with a realistic and fair peace deal with Russia. He needs to completely and entirely sideline Trump, because it's blatantly obvious that Trump does not have Ukraine's best interests at heart. He couldn't give a sh!t about Ukraine. It's now at the point where Europe is now outspending the U.S. in terms of support for the Ukrainian war effort anyway.

https://edition.cnn.com/politics/live-news/trump-ukraine-news-11-23-25?post-id=cmibszp1o000c3b6ouke2xhw8

This is a far more sensible, realistic, reasonable and sane plan than that which Trump wants enforced...

Reuters: European leaders have made a counter-proposal that differs significantly from the US draft
From CNN’s Jonny Hallam

Europe’s E3 powers of Britain, France and Germany created a counter-proposal to the United States’ 28-point Ukraine peace plan, according to Reuters, which saw the text on Sunday.

The text was confirmed as accurate by one European official and one European diplomatic source speaking to CNN’s chief international security correspondent Nick Paton Walsh.

One of those officials said the text was an accurate reflection of European bids to change the US draft proposal, but that further alterations could have been made during fast-moving talks in Geneva today.

Here’s how the plan differs: Among the key changes included in the counter-proposal was a softening of the language around restricting NATO in Europe.

The European version also removed mention of territorial concessions. The regions of Crimea, Donetsk and Luhansk were all explicitly recognized as de facto Russian in the US plan. In the new European proposal, all recognitions of Russian control are removed. It demands a ceasefire before determining territorial swaps, and that the current front line be the basis for any future discussions.

The Europeans also removed the 100-day deadline for elections in Ukraine, instead saying elections will be held as soon as possible after the signing of the peace agreement.

The European proposal removes all references to US-Russia investment structures, shifting toward an approach where Russia pays reparations to Ukraine.

It also said the size of Ukraine’s military would be “capped at 800,000 in peacetime,” which is the amount of military personnel it currently has, compared to limit of 600,000 stated in the US-plan.

For an idiot like trump, expressing gratitude means agreeing to whatever dumb deal Trump comes up with. Anything less he see's as being ungrateful

My bet is that there would have been far more Ukrainians alive today
if Ukraine would have surrendered in 2022.
Ukraine was set up by the USA and the Europeans to shed their blood
when in fact there was no real commitment to help them -
just supply enough weapons to keep the war in a permanent stalemate
and bleed both the Ukrainians and Russians slowly for years -
except that the combined losses are over 1,000 dead per day
if you add up Ukrainian and Russian losses.

Trump has basically forced Ukraine into a surrender anyway -
the 28 point plan is close to an unconditional surrender and
none of the so called guarantees of security will ever be placed into law
in the USA or any NATO country -
they are not worth the paper they are written on -
same as the Budapest memorandum and the 2014 and 2015 Minsk agreements -
false promises by diplomats that meant nothing in reality.

Bobby. wrote on Nov 24^th, 2025 at 10:37am:

My bet is that there would have been far more Ukrainians alive today if Ukraine would have surrendered in 2022.

No, they'd be Russian by now if they had surrendered

John Smith wrote on Nov 24^th, 2025 at 10:43am:

Bobby. wrote on Nov 24th, 2025 at 10:37am: My bet is that there would have been far more Ukrainians alive today if Ukraine would have surrendered in 2022. No, they'd be Russian by now if they had surrendered

Zelensky had more bargaining power in 2022 -

he could have told NATO -
you either come in here and defend Ukraine with massive air power and your own troops
or you'll face the massive Russian army anyway - after they take Ukraine.

Bobby. wrote on Nov 24^th, 2025 at 10:46am:

Zelensky had more bargaining power in 2022 -

no, he didn't have Trump to deal with

John Smith wrote on Nov 24^th, 2025 at 10:36am:

For an idiot like trump, expressing gratitude means agreeing to whatever dumb deal Trump comes up with. Anything less he see's as being ungrateful

And giving Trumpy money.

John Smith wrote on Nov 24^th, 2025 at 10:51am:

Bobby. wrote on Nov 24th, 2025 at 10:46am: Zelensky had more bargaining power in 2022 - no, he didn't have Trump to deal with

Biden might as well have said -

just supply enough weapons to keep the war in a permanent stalemate
and bleed both the Ukrainians and Russians slowly for years -
except that the combined losses are over 1,000 dead per day
if you add up Ukrainian and Russian losses.

Trump will try to get Russia whatever they want.

"Trump’s businesses went bankrupt so many times in the 1990s that many legitimate banks wouldn’t lend to him anymore. He turned to Russian oligarchs — Putin’s ruling clique — to bankroll his projects, and launder their dirty money for them. This was, and continues to be, a huge part of his business. He’s a Russian money launderer."

Bobby. wrote on Nov 24^th, 2025 at 11:00am:

Biden might as well have said -

and you might have turned out to not be gay


pity for you that reality says otherwise ::)

Ukraine is not free -
possibly 1 million Ukrainians are dead.
It has proven that unless a country is in NATO -
Russia will attack them and NATO won't send troops and massive air power
to win the war – they'll just supply enough weapons to form a stalemate.
NATO is weak and divided – Russia as a bully took advantage of that.
My bet is that Russia will invade every non NATO country around them now -
they are there for the taking just like Ukraine.
The NATO presidents, prime ministers and leaders will just clutch their pearls
in horror and do nothing.

Even if NATO countries are attacked – article 5 might prove worthless.
NATO doesn't have the stomach for a war that could lead to WW3 and nukes.
All NATO countries should have been in a war economy by now after nearly 4 years -
but they have trouble raising their arms expenditure from 2% to 3% of GDP.
In WW2 Britain was spending 50% of their GDP on war.
This is a phoney war.

Russia signed the Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances signed in 1994 that was supposed to ensure Ukraine's sovereignty, but Russia has not upheld their end of the deal and has invaded Ukraine twice since then. Only a fool would think Putin would uphold Trump's plan because it gives Russia everything they wanted and tells them that their aggression works. If for no other reason, this is the one reason that Zelensky cannot accept the plan put forth by Trump.

Armchair_Politician wrote on Nov 24^th, 2025 at 11:37am:

Russia signed the Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances signed in 1994 that was supposed to ensure Ukraine's sovereignty, but Russia has not upheld their end of the deal and has invaded Ukraine twice since then. Only a fool would think Putin would uphold Trump's plan because it gives Russia everything they wanted and tells them that their aggression works. If for no other reason, this is the one reason that Zelensky cannot accept the plan put forth by Trump.

True but how many more millions of Ukrainians will die to prove that point?

Bobby. wrote on Nov 24^th, 2025 at 11:40am:

Armchair_Politician wrote on Nov 24th, 2025 at 11:37am: Russia signed the Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances signed in 1994 that was supposed to ensure Ukraine's sovereignty, but Russia has not upheld their end of the deal and has invaded Ukraine twice since then. Only a fool would think Putin would uphold Trump's plan because it gives Russia everything they wanted and tells them that their aggression works. If for no other reason, this is the one reason that Zelensky cannot accept the plan put forth by Trump. True but how many more millions of Ukrainians will die to prove that point?

Hopefully Putin falls out of a window soon.

greggerypeccary wrote on Nov 24^th, 2025 at 11:41am:

Bobby. wrote on Nov 24th, 2025 at 11:40am: Armchair_Politician wrote on Nov 24th, 2025 at 11:37am: Russia signed the Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances signed in 1994 that was supposed to ensure Ukraine's sovereignty, but Russia has not upheld their end of the deal and has invaded Ukraine twice since then. Only a fool would think Putin would uphold Trump's plan because it gives Russia everything they wanted and tells them that their aggression works. If for no other reason, this is the one reason that Zelensky cannot accept the plan put forth by Trump. True but how many more millions of Ukrainians will die to prove that point? Hopefully Putin falls out of a window soon.

To be replaced by another one of his henchmen?

Russians are natural crooks -
they have only ever had crooks running their country.
They could have been the world's only super power but
now their economy is smaller than Italy's.   ::)

greggerypeccary wrote on Nov 24^th, 2025 at 11:41am:

Bobby. wrote on Nov 24th, 2025 at 11:40am: Armchair_Politician wrote on Nov 24th, 2025 at 11:37am: Russia signed the Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances signed in 1994 that was supposed to ensure Ukraine's sovereignty, but Russia has not upheld their end of the deal and has invaded Ukraine twice since then. Only a fool would think Putin would uphold Trump's plan because it gives Russia everything they wanted and tells them that their aggression works. If for no other reason, this is the one reason that Zelensky cannot accept the plan put forth by Trump. True but how many more millions of Ukrainians will die to prove that point? Hopefully Putin falls out of a window soon.

Yes, "falls"...

Bobby. wrote on Nov 24^th, 2025 at 11:46am:

greggerypeccary wrote on Nov 24th, 2025 at 11:41am: Bobby. wrote on Nov 24th, 2025 at 11:40am: Armchair_Politician wrote on Nov 24th, 2025 at 11:37am: Russia signed the Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances signed in 1994 that was supposed to ensure Ukraine's sovereignty, but Russia has not upheld their end of the deal and has invaded Ukraine twice since then. Only a fool would think Putin would uphold Trump's plan because it gives Russia everything they wanted and tells them that their aggression works. If for no other reason, this is the one reason that Zelensky cannot accept the plan put forth by Trump. True but how many more millions of Ukrainians will die to prove that point? Hopefully Putin falls out of a window soon. To be replaced by another one of his henchmen?

His henchmen won't continue the war.

greggerypeccary wrote on Nov 24^th, 2025 at 11:49am:

Bobby. wrote on Nov 24th, 2025 at 11:46am: greggerypeccary wrote on Nov 24th, 2025 at 11:41am: Bobby. wrote on Nov 24th, 2025 at 11:40am: Armchair_Politician wrote on Nov 24th, 2025 at 11:37am: Russia signed the Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances signed in 1994 that was supposed to ensure Ukraine's sovereignty, but Russia has not upheld their end of the deal and has invaded Ukraine twice since then. Only a fool would think Putin would uphold Trump's plan because it gives Russia everything they wanted and tells them that their aggression works. If for no other reason, this is the one reason that Zelensky cannot accept the plan put forth by Trump. True but how many more millions of Ukrainians will die to prove that point? Hopefully Putin falls out of a window soon. To be replaced by another one of his henchmen? His henchmen won't continue the war.

I think the rich oligarchs have had enough of Putin's war and want their money and boats and planes back and would pressure whoever took over from Putin to end the war quickly.

greggerypeccary wrote on Nov 24^th, 2025 at 11:49am:

Bobby. wrote on Nov 24th, 2025 at 11:46am: greggerypeccary wrote on Nov 24th, 2025 at 11:41am: Bobby. wrote on Nov 24th, 2025 at 11:40am: Armchair_Politician wrote on Nov 24th, 2025 at 11:37am: Russia signed the Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances signed in 1994 that was supposed to ensure Ukraine's sovereignty, but Russia has not upheld their end of the deal and has invaded Ukraine twice since then. Only a fool would think Putin would uphold Trump's plan because it gives Russia everything they wanted and tells them that their aggression works. If for no other reason, this is the one reason that Zelensky cannot accept the plan put forth by Trump. True but how many more millions of Ukrainians will die to prove that point? Hopefully Putin falls out of a window soon. To be replaced by another one of his henchmen? His henchmen won't continue the war.

They will -

Many Ukrainians got out of Ukraine and many more were conscripted against their will
to fight and die when the final result is a surrender by Ukraine -
which is all the 28 point plan is.
The Russians get everything they wanted and a weakened Ukraine
which will be far easier to invade fully in 2 years time.

Bobby. wrote on Nov 24^th, 2025 at 10:46am:

John Smith wrote on Nov 24th, 2025 at 10:43am: Bobby. wrote on Nov 24th, 2025 at 10:37am: My bet is that there would have been far more Ukrainians alive today if Ukraine would have surrendered in 2022. No, they'd be Russian by now if they had surrendered Zelensky had more bargaining power in 2022 - he could have told NATO - you either come in here and defend Ukraine with massive air power and your own troops or you'll face the massive Russian army anyway - after they take Ukraine.

Oh? So how do you get to this - after posting this?


Bobby. wrote on Nov 24^th, 2025 at 10:37am:

My bet is that there would have been far more Ukrainians alive today if Ukraine would have surrendered in 2022. Ukraine was set up by the USA and the Europeans to shed their blood when in fact there was no real commitment to help them - just supply enough weapons to keep the war in a permanent stalemate and bleed both the Ukrainians and Russians slowly for years - except that the combined losses are over 1,000 dead per day if you add up Ukrainian and Russian losses. Trump has basically forced Ukraine into a surrender anyway - the 28 point plan is close to an unconditional surrender and none of the so called guarantees of security will ever be placed into law in the USA or any NATO country - they are not worth the paper they are written on - same as the Budapest memorandum and the 2014 and 2015 Minsk agreements - false promises by diplomats that meant nothing in reality.

Ukrainians have never wanted surrender. They're a post-Soviet country. They know all too well what Russians are capable of, and they will never surrender to Vlad, no matter what your DL says.

If you want to do a Neville Chamberlain, go back to Stormfront.

Armchair_Politician wrote on Nov 24^th, 2025 at 12:22pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Nov 24th, 2025 at 11:49am: Bobby. wrote on Nov 24th, 2025 at 11:46am: greggerypeccary wrote on Nov 24th, 2025 at 11:41am: Bobby. wrote on Nov 24th, 2025 at 11:40am: Armchair_Politician wrote on Nov 24th, 2025 at 11:37am: Russia signed the Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances signed in 1994 that was supposed to ensure Ukraine's sovereignty, but Russia has not upheld their end of the deal and has invaded Ukraine twice since then. Only a fool would think Putin would uphold Trump's plan because it gives Russia everything they wanted and tells them that their aggression works. If for no other reason, this is the one reason that Zelensky cannot accept the plan put forth by Trump. True but how many more millions of Ukrainians will die to prove that point? Hopefully Putin falls out of a window soon. To be replaced by another one of his henchmen? His henchmen won't continue the war. I think the rich oligarchs have had enough of Putin's war and want their money and boats and planes back and would pressure whoever took over from Putin to end the war quickly.

Yep, I agree.

This is Putin's personal war - other Russians aren't interested in it.

greggerypeccary wrote on Nov 24^th, 2025 at 11:00am:

Trump will try to get Russia whatever they want. "Trump’s businesses went bankrupt so many times in the 1990s that many legitimate banks wouldn’t lend to him anymore. He turned to Russian oligarchs — Putin’s ruling clique — to bankroll his projects, and launder their dirty money for them. This was, and continues to be, a huge part of his business. He’s a Russian money launderer."

Just so. This is why he's hiding the Epstein files. As ever, it all comes back to he.

Epstein Epstein Epstein, no?

Karnal wrote on Nov 24^th, 2025 at 1:52pm:

Bobby. wrote on Nov 24th, 2025 at 10:46am: John Smith wrote on Nov 24th, 2025 at 10:43am: Bobby. wrote on Nov 24th, 2025 at 10:37am: My bet is that there would have been far more Ukrainians alive today if Ukraine would have surrendered in 2022. No, they'd be Russian by now if they had surrendered Zelensky had more bargaining power in 2022 - he could have told NATO - you either come in here and defend Ukraine with massive air power and your own troops or you'll face the massive Russian army anyway - after they take Ukraine. Oh? So how do you get to this - after posting this? Bobby. wrote on Nov 24th, 2025 at 10:37am: My bet is that there would have been far more Ukrainians alive today if Ukraine would have surrendered in 2022. Ukraine was set up by the USA and the Europeans to shed their blood when in fact there was no real commitment to help them - just supply enough weapons to keep the war in a permanent stalemate and bleed both the Ukrainians and Russians slowly for years - except that the combined losses are over 1,000 dead per day if you add up Ukrainian and Russian losses. Trump has basically forced Ukraine into a surrender anyway - the 28 point plan is close to an unconditional surrender and none of the so called guarantees of security will ever be placed into law in the USA or any NATO country - they are not worth the paper they are written on - same as the Budapest memorandum and the 2014 and 2015 Minsk agreements - false promises by diplomats that meant nothing in reality. Ukrainians have never wanted surrender. They're a post-Soviet country. They know all too well what Russians are capable of, and they will never surrender to Vlad, no matter what your DL says. If you want to do a Neville Chamberlain, go back to Stormfront.

You fool - Trump has just forced Ukraine to surrender.

They won't get anymore US arms or intelligence unless they do.   ::)

Bobby. wrote on Nov 24^th, 2025 at 11:46am:

greggerypeccary wrote on Nov 24th, 2025 at 11:41am: Bobby. wrote on Nov 24th, 2025 at 11:40am: Armchair_Politician wrote on Nov 24th, 2025 at 11:37am: Russia signed the Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances signed in 1994 that was supposed to ensure Ukraine's sovereignty, but Russia has not upheld their end of the deal and has invaded Ukraine twice since then. Only a fool would think Putin would uphold Trump's plan because it gives Russia everything they wanted and tells them that their aggression works. If for no other reason, this is the one reason that Zelensky cannot accept the plan put forth by Trump. True but how many more millions of Ukrainians will die to prove that point? Hopefully Putin falls out of a window soon. To be replaced by another one of his henchmen? Russians are natural crooks - they have only ever had crooks running their country. They could have been the world's only super power but now their economy is smaller than Italy's.   ::)

Russia is pinned down. The price of oil's tanked, their reserves are running out, and there's nowhere to turn. It's a kleptocracy, a failed rogue state with no true friends.

If your DL wasn't being blackmailed, he'd be tearing Vlad a new one.

The only one trying to save Russia now is he.

You

Karnal wrote on Nov 24^th, 2025 at 2:03pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Nov 24th, 2025 at 11:00am: Trump will try to get Russia whatever they want. "Trump’s businesses went bankrupt so many times in the 1990s that many legitimate banks wouldn’t lend to him anymore. He turned to Russian oligarchs — Putin’s ruling clique — to bankroll his projects, and launder their dirty money for them. This was, and continues to be, a huge part of his business. He’s a Russian money launderer." Just so. This is why he's hiding the Epstein files. As ever, it all comes back to he. Epstein Epstein Epstein, no?

https://i.imgur.com/COrRhr4.jpeg

Bobby. wrote on Nov 24^th, 2025 at 2:11pm:

Karnal wrote on Nov 24th, 2025 at 1:52pm: Bobby. wrote on Nov 24th, 2025 at 10:46am: John Smith wrote on Nov 24th, 2025 at 10:43am: Bobby. wrote on Nov 24th, 2025 at 10:37am: My bet is that there would have been far more Ukrainians alive today if Ukraine would have surrendered in 2022. No, they'd be Russian by now if they had surrendered Zelensky had more bargaining power in 2022 - he could have told NATO - you either come in here and defend Ukraine with massive air power and your own troops or you'll face the massive Russian army anyway - after they take Ukraine. Oh? So how do you get to this - after posting this? Bobby. wrote on Nov 24th, 2025 at 10:37am: My bet is that there would have been far more Ukrainians alive today if Ukraine would have surrendered in 2022. Ukraine was set up by the USA and the Europeans to shed their blood when in fact there was no real commitment to help them - just supply enough weapons to keep the war in a permanent stalemate and bleed both the Ukrainians and Russians slowly for years - except that the combined losses are over 1,000 dead per day if you add up Ukrainian and Russian losses. Trump has basically forced Ukraine into a surrender anyway - the 28 point plan is close to an unconditional surrender and none of the so called guarantees of security will ever be placed into law in the USA or any NATO country - they are not worth the paper they are written on - same as the Budapest memorandum and the 2014 and 2015 Minsk agreements - false promises by diplomats that meant nothing in reality. Ukrainians have never wanted surrender. They're a post-Soviet country. They know all too well what Russians are capable of, and they will never surrender to Vlad, no matter what your DL says. If you want to do a Neville Chamberlain, go back to Stormfront. You fool - Trump has just forced Ukraine to surrender. They won't get anymore US arms or intelligence unless they do.   ::)

They're getting US arms through Europe, you gimp. In two years time, your DL will be gone -

Poof! Back to where he came from.

Karnal wrote on Nov 24^th, 2025 at 2:15pm:

Bobby. wrote on Nov 24th, 2025 at 2:11pm: You fool - Trump has just forced Ukraine to surrender. They won't get anymore US arms or intelligence unless they do.   ::) They're getting US arms through Europe, you gimp. In two years time, your DL will be gone - Poof! Back to where he came from.

You fool - only enough to keep both sides bleeding forever
but Ukraine is losing territory as we speak.

Bobby. wrote on Nov 24^th, 2025 at 2:41pm:

Karnal wrote on Nov 24th, 2025 at 2:15pm: Bobby. wrote on Nov 24th, 2025 at 2:11pm: You fool - Trump has just forced Ukraine to surrender. They won't get anymore US arms or intelligence unless they do.   ::) They're getting US arms through Europe, you gimp. In two years time, your DL will be gone - Poof! Back to where he came from. You fool - only enough to keep both sides bleeding forever but Ukraine is losing territory as we speak.

Ukraine is defending itself, you dullard. It's successfully held back Russia, who's economy is drowning. Vlad can't keep going forever, and you - yes you - want a free sovereign country to surrender.

I've never heard such spineless apologism in all the time I've been a member of this board. Not only do you worship he, you clot, you're now going for the hand in his puppet.

In two years time, he'll be gone, and you'll be left, just another bare bottom in the showers.

Feel it.

Karnal like most leftie keyboard warriors wants to fight to the last ukranian

American Leftism went for absolute power with Trump as their excuse to blatantly do so.
They failed.

Now Leftism, licking it's wounds, has fled here to Australia to flex it's Media induced political power absolutism and blatant bias.
So far, they have been successful.

Hence why the Coalition must now use a different tactic - the Nationals.

Jasin wrote on Nov 24^th, 2025 at 4:48pm:

American Leftism went for absolute power with Trump as their excuse to blatantly do so. They failed. Now Leftism, licking it's wounds, has fled here to Australia to flex it's Media induced political power absolutism and blatant bias. So far, they have been successful. Hence why the Coalition must now use a different tactic - the Nationals.

Quote:

American Leftism

America have no leftism - they have centre right and much further right only.

In the USA left means a little left of extremem right.

Bobby. wrote on Nov 24^th, 2025 at 2:11pm:

Karnal wrote on Nov 24th, 2025 at 1:52pm: Bobby. wrote on Nov 24th, 2025 at 10:46am: John Smith wrote on Nov 24th, 2025 at 10:43am: Bobby. wrote on Nov 24th, 2025 at 10:37am: My bet is that there would have been far more Ukrainians alive today if Ukraine would have surrendered in 2022. No, they'd be Russian by now if they had surrendered Zelensky had more bargaining power in 2022 - he could have told NATO - you either come in here and defend Ukraine with massive air power and your own troops or you'll face the massive Russian army anyway - after they take Ukraine. Oh? So how do you get to this - after posting this? Bobby. wrote on Nov 24th, 2025 at 10:37am: My bet is that there would have been far more Ukrainians alive today if Ukraine would have surrendered in 2022. Ukraine was set up by the USA and the Europeans to shed their blood when in fact there was no real commitment to help them - just supply enough weapons to keep the war in a permanent stalemate and bleed both the Ukrainians and Russians slowly for years - except that the combined losses are over 1,000 dead per day if you add up Ukrainian and Russian losses. Trump has basically forced Ukraine into a surrender anyway - the 28 point plan is close to an unconditional surrender and none of the so called guarantees of security will ever be placed into law in the USA or any NATO country - they are not worth the paper they are written on - same as the Budapest memorandum and the 2014 and 2015 Minsk agreements - false promises by diplomats that meant nothing in reality. Ukrainians have never wanted surrender. They're a post-Soviet country. They know all too well what Russians are capable of, and they will never surrender to Vlad, no matter what your DL says. If you want to do a Neville Chamberlain, go back to Stormfront. You fool - Trump has just forced Ukraine to surrender. They won't get anymore US arms or intelligence unless they do.   ::)

You have to seriously question American inteligence whith Trump in charge.

Dnarever wrote on Nov 24^th, 2025 at 5:26pm:

Bobby. wrote on Nov 24th, 2025 at 2:11pm: Karnal wrote on Nov 24th, 2025 at 1:52pm: Bobby. wrote on Nov 24th, 2025 at 10:46am: John Smith wrote on Nov 24th, 2025 at 10:43am: Bobby. wrote on Nov 24th, 2025 at 10:37am: My bet is that there would have been far more Ukrainians alive today if Ukraine would have surrendered in 2022. No, they'd be Russian by now if they had surrendered Zelensky had more bargaining power in 2022 - he could have told NATO - you either come in here and defend Ukraine with massive air power and your own troops or you'll face the massive Russian army anyway - after they take Ukraine. Oh? So how do you get to this - after posting this? Bobby. wrote on Nov 24th, 2025 at 10:37am: My bet is that there would have been far more Ukrainians alive today if Ukraine would have surrendered in 2022. Ukraine was set up by the USA and the Europeans to shed their blood when in fact there was no real commitment to help them - just supply enough weapons to keep the war in a permanent stalemate and bleed both the Ukrainians and Russians slowly for years - except that the combined losses are over 1,000 dead per day if you add up Ukrainian and Russian losses. Trump has basically forced Ukraine into a surrender anyway - the 28 point plan is close to an unconditional surrender and none of the so called guarantees of security will ever be placed into law in the USA or any NATO country - they are not worth the paper they are written on - same as the Budapest memorandum and the 2014 and 2015 Minsk agreements - false promises by diplomats that meant nothing in reality. Ukrainians have never wanted surrender. They're a post-Soviet country. They know all too well what Russians are capable of, and they will never surrender to Vlad, no matter what your DL says. If you want to do a Neville Chamberlain, go back to Stormfront. You fool - Trump has just forced Ukraine to surrender. They won't get anymore US arms or intelligence unless they do.   ::) You have to seriously question American intelligence with Trump in charge.

I always have a chuckle when I see those two words in the same sentence   ;D

Karnal wrote on Nov 24^th, 2025 at 3:43pm:

Bobby. wrote on Nov 24th, 2025 at 2:41pm: Karnal wrote on Nov 24th, 2025 at 2:15pm: Bobby. wrote on Nov 24th, 2025 at 2:11pm: You fool - Trump has just forced Ukraine to surrender. They won't get anymore US arms or intelligence unless they do.   ::) They're getting US arms through Europe, you gimp. In two years time, your DL will be gone - Poof! Back to where he came from. You fool - only enough to keep both sides bleeding forever but Ukraine is losing territory as we speak. Ukraine is defending itself, you dullard. It's successfully held back Russia, who's economy is drowning. Vlad can't keep going forever, and you - yes you - want a free sovereign country to surrender. I've never heard such spineless apologism in all the time I've been a member of this board. Not only do you worship he, you clot, you're now going for the hand in his puppet. In two years time, he'll be gone, and you'll be left, just another bare bottom in the showers. Feel it.

Karnal - anyone in Ukraine with even a twopence of brains has left
and is most likely living in Europe somewhere.

Come on - would you like to be at the Russian front for nearly 4 years?