I doubt we'll ever see Ukraine agree to this ridiculous peace plan drafted by the Trump administration that would see Ukraine give up land to Russia and reduce its military size and equipment in order to appease Russia, the aggressor. Nor should they. Trump is just doing with his buddy Putin asks. Shameful.

https://edition.cnn.com/2025/11/20/politics/ukraine-russia-trump-peace-proposal

Russia is not the aggressor - NATO and the west is and has been for the last 4 decades breaking agreements to keep NATO bases out of the east - they’ve been encircling Russia for years and years and now the bear has finally came out to fight - to protect itself

.

Ukraine won't accept those terms -

US promises meant nothing before after the Budapest memorandum in 1994.

SerialBrain9 wrote on Nov 21^st, 2025 at 5:50am:

Russia is not the aggressor - NATO and the west is and has been for the last 4 decades breaking agreements to keep NATO bases out of the east - they’ve been encircling Russia for years and years and now the bear has finally came out to fight - to protect itself

You’re an idiot. You realise NATO is a purely defensive organisation, right? That’s unlike Russia, which has a history of aggression against neighbours.

Bobby. wrote on Nov 21^st, 2025 at 6:07am:

Ukraine won't accept those terms - US promises meant nothing before after the Budapest memorandum in 1994.

US promises mean NOTHING with Trump as President.

Armchair_Politician wrote on Nov 21^st, 2025 at 6:39am:

Bobby. wrote on Nov 21st, 2025 at 6:07am: Ukraine won't accept those terms - US promises meant nothing before after the Budapest memorandum in 1994. US promises mean NOTHING with Trump as President.

History.

Google AI




The Budapest Memorandum was not converted into U.S. law and is considered a political agreement rather than a legally binding treaty. The U.S. and other signatories gave security assurances and pledged to consult in the event of a violation, but the agreement was deliberately structured to avoid a legally enforceable military commitment. The memorandum is best understood as a political document that provides security assurances, and its commitments were not incorporated into U.S. statute.


Political vs. Legal: The Budapest Memorandum was designed to be a political, not a legally binding, agreement. U.S. negotiators specifically used the term "assurances" instead of "guarantees" to emphasize its political nature.


No U.S. legislation: The commitments were not enacted into U.S. law. They were instead political pledges made through a memorandum.


Consultation, not military intervention: The memorandum included an obligation to consult if commitments were violated, but not a direct obligation to intervene militarily. The U.S. and the UK insisted on keeping their commitments political in nature.

Bobby. wrote on Nov 21^st, 2025 at 6:47am:

The Budapest Memorandum was not converted into U.S. law

so you agree with Armchair that US promises mean NOTHING?

Yup, can’t rely on the US anymore. Well, not until and if a rational administratration is ever elected again.

John Smith wrote on Nov 21^st, 2025 at 7:30am:

Bobby. wrote on Nov 21st, 2025 at 6:47am: The Budapest Memorandum was not converted into U.S. law so you agree with Armchair that US promises mean NOTHING?

Yes - the USA is just a bag of wind - they always were after Roosevelt died.

Bobby. wrote on Nov 21^st, 2025 at 6:47am:

Armchair_Politician wrote on Nov 21st, 2025 at 6:39am: Bobby. wrote on Nov 21st, 2025 at 6:07am: Ukraine won't accept those terms - US promises meant nothing before after the Budapest memorandum in 1994. US promises mean NOTHING with Trump as President. History. Google AI The Budapest Memorandum was not converted into U.S. law and is considered a political agreement rather than a legally binding treaty. The U.S. and other signatories gave security assurances and pledged to consult in the event of a violation, but the agreement was deliberately structured to avoid a legally enforceable military commitment. The memorandum is best understood as a political document that provides security assurances, and its commitments were not incorporated into U.S. statute. Political vs. Legal: The Budapest Memorandum was designed to be a political, not a legally binding, agreement. U.S. negotiators specifically used the term "assurances" instead of "guarantees" to emphasize its political nature. No U.S. legislation: The commitments were not enacted into U.S. law. They were instead political pledges made through a memorandum. Consultation, not military intervention: The memorandum included an obligation to consult if commitments were violated, but not a direct obligation to intervene militarily. The U.S. and the UK insisted on keeping their commitments political in nature.

Your source?

John Smith wrote on Nov 21^st, 2025 at 7:30am:

Bobby. wrote on Nov 21st, 2025 at 6:47am: The Budapest Memorandum was not converted into U.S. law so you agree with Armchair that US promises mean NOTHING?

No. Sleepy Joe met with Johnson, Macron and, of course, Zalensky. He upheld his part of the memorandum absolutely. He often referenced it.

Having said that, the Budapest memorandum was more a commitment not to invade Ukraine and respect its borders. From that angle, DL's collusion with Vlad to seize Ukrainian land is indeed a broken promise.

DL, like Biden, is responsible for past US deals in his role of prez.

We all know what he thinks of deals, eh?

I find it rather amusing that Russia, for decades the enemy of the west, is now being hailed as the good guy because Trump has said so. ::)

John Smith wrote on Nov 21^st, 2025 at 7:30am:

Bobby. wrote on Nov 21st, 2025 at 6:47am: The Budapest Memorandum was not converted into U.S. law so you agree with Armchair that US promises mean NOTHING?

If it were any other President, it wouldn't be an issue. If it were Clinton or Bush or Obama in the White House then they wouldn't hesitate. But now we have Trump and it's no secret how he admires Putin and other dictators and autocrats. That's why he has come up with a plan to have Ukraine cede sovereign territory to Russia, which Zelensky has already said is a non-starter. Could you imagine the US ceding Diego Garcia to China? Or Alaska to Russia? Why does Trump think Zelensky should give up his land when it was Putin who invaded Ukraine?

Armchair_Politician wrote on Nov 21^st, 2025 at 8:26am:

John Smith wrote on Nov 21st, 2025 at 7:30am: Bobby. wrote on Nov 21st, 2025 at 6:47am: The Budapest Memorandum was not converted into U.S. law so you agree with Armchair that US promises mean NOTHING? If it were any other President, it wouldn't be an issue. If it were Clinton or Bush or Obama in the White House then they wouldn't hesitate. But now we have Trump and it's no secret how he admires Putin and other dictators and autocrats. That's why he has come up with a plan to have Ukraine cede sovereign territory to Russia, which Zelensky has already said is a non-starter. Could you imagine the US ceding Diego Garcia to China? Or Alaska to Russia? Why does Trump think Zelensky should give up his land when it was Putin who invaded Ukraine?

He'll do anything Putin wants.

He doesn't want to lose his Russian financial backers.

Trump is realist and he wants to save Ukrainians unlike amoral EU and UK leaders who want to "fight Russia  to the last Ukrainian".

If Trumpy was a realist (THAT clown a realist????) he would give them tomahawk missiles and more Abrams tanks. Save the US govt the cost of decommissioning them.

The Tomahawk cruise missile can carry nuclear warheads so the moment they are launched Russia would retaliate with own nuclear strike.
Thankfully Trump is realist and doesn't want world destruction.

kU6mdn74 wrote on Nov 21^st, 2025 at 10:35am:

Trump is realist and he wants to save Ukrainians ...

He wants no such thing.

He wants Putin to get whatever he wants, and that's it.

Trump has no concern for human life that isn't his own.

If he can be called 'human', that is.

greggerypeccary wrote on Nov 21^st, 2025 at 11:01am:

kU6mdn74 wrote on Nov 21st, 2025 at 10:35am: Trump is realist and he wants to save Ukrainians ... He wants no such thing. He wants Putin to get whatever he wants, and that's it. Trump has no concern for human life that isn't his own. If he can be called 'human', that is.

More BBC propaganda bullschitt  ;D

kU6mdn74 wrote on Nov 21^st, 2025 at 10:59am:

The Tomahawk cruise missile can carry nuclear warheads so the moment they are launched Russia would retaliate with own nuclear strike. Thankfully Trump is realist and doesn't want world destruction.

So can some of the ruzzian ballistic and cruise missiles.

Trumpy is mentally deranged not a realist.

Even at his best Trumpy was a man baby, a narcissist not caring about anybody bar himself. He could not admit failure hence the insurrection and all the other crap.

Jovial Monk wrote on Nov 21^st, 2025 at 11:20am:

kU6mdn74 wrote on Nov 21st, 2025 at 10:59am: The Tomahawk cruise missile can carry nuclear warheads so the moment they are launched Russia would retaliate with own nuclear strike. Thankfully Trump is realist and doesn't want world destruction. So can some of the ruzzian ballistic and cruise missiles. Trumpy is mentally deranged not a realist. Even at his best Trumpy was a man baby, a narcissist not caring about anybody bar himself. He could not admit failure hence the insurrection and all the other crap.

Trump is never at his best - always at his worst.

Russia does not use ballistic or/and cruise missiles against US or EU or UK because Putin is realist too.

kU6mdn74 wrote on Nov 21^st, 2025 at 11:46am:

Russia does not use ballistic or/and cruise missiles against US or EU or UK because Putin is realist too.

NATO should have entered Ukraine and eradicated the Russian vermin in March 2022.

Biden refused to lead.

NATO is just as brave as forum posters who want to eradicate Russia but only from safety of internet forum  ;)

kU6mdn74 wrote on Nov 21^st, 2025 at 12:19pm:

NATO is just as brave as forum posters who want to eradicate Russia but only from safety of internet forum  ;)

if it weren't for their nukes russia would be even more of a laughing stock than they are now. They can't even win a war against a third world country like Ukraine.

John Smith wrote on Nov 21^st, 2025 at 1:49pm:

kU6mdn74 wrote on Nov 21st, 2025 at 12:19pm: NATO is just as brave as forum posters who want to eradicate Russia but only from safety of internet forum  ;) if it weren't for their nukes russia would be even more of a laughing stock than they are now. They can't even win a war against a third world country like Ukraine.

Putin is not like Hitler -

he took all of France in 6 weeks.

John Smith wrote on Nov 21^st, 2025 at 1:49pm:

kU6mdn74 wrote on Nov 21st, 2025 at 12:19pm: NATO is just as brave as forum posters who want to eradicate Russia but only from safety of internet forum  ;) if it weren't for their nukes russia would be even more of a laughing stock than they are now. They can't even win a war against a third world country like Ukraine.

USA v Vietnam ?
USA v Afghanistan ?

aquascoot wrote on Nov 21^st, 2025 at 1:59pm:

John Smith wrote on Nov 21st, 2025 at 1:49pm: kU6mdn74 wrote on Nov 21st, 2025 at 12:19pm: NATO is just as brave as forum posters who want to eradicate Russia but only from safety of internet forum  ;) if it weren't for their nukes russia would be even more of a laughing stock than they are now. They can't even win a war against a third world country like Ukraine. USA v Vietnam ? USA v Afghanistan ?

Thicko Smitho is mentally negligible.
Memory span of a guppy in a small fishbowl: it's a brand new world for him at every turn.


Needless to say, Russia didnt prevail against a fifth world country like Afghanistan either.

aquascoot wrote on Nov 21^st, 2025 at 1:59pm:

John Smith wrote on Nov 21st, 2025 at 1:49pm: kU6mdn74 wrote on Nov 21st, 2025 at 12:19pm: NATO is just as brave as forum posters who want to eradicate Russia but only from safety of internet forum  ;) if it weren't for their nukes russia would be even more of a laughing stock than they are now. They can't even win a war against a third world country like Ukraine. USA v Vietnam ? USA v Afghanistan ?

vietnam was over 50 yrs ago and the USA won easily in Afghanistan ::)

It was Biden not Trump who was doing Putin's biding.

Do you remember "Putin's tax" introduced by sleepy Joe?

John Smith wrote on Nov 21^st, 2025 at 4:32pm:

aquascoot wrote on Nov 21st, 2025 at 1:59pm: John Smith wrote on Nov 21st, 2025 at 1:49pm: kU6mdn74 wrote on Nov 21st, 2025 at 12:19pm: NATO is just as brave as forum posters who want to eradicate Russia but only from safety of internet forum  ;) if it weren't for their nukes russia would be even more of a laughing stock than they are now. They can't even win a war against a third world country like Ukraine. USA v Vietnam ? USA v Afghanistan ? vietnam was over 50 yrs ago and the USA won easily in Afghanistan ::)

;D ;D

another schizophrenic attack Francis?

you should get that looked at

kU6mdn74 wrote on Nov 21^st, 2025 at 5:38pm:

It was Biden not Trump who was doing Putin's biding. Do you remember "Putin's tax" introduced by sleepy Joe?

Do you remember "President Putin says it's not Russia. I don't see any reason why it would be" announced by Dopey Don?

https://media-cldnry.s-nbcnews.com/image/upload/t_fit-760w,f_auto,q_auto:best/rockcms/2025-11/251107-donald-trump-zz-206f2e.jpg

John Smith wrote on Nov 21^st, 2025 at 4:32pm:

aquascoot wrote on Nov 21st, 2025 at 1:59pm: John Smith wrote on Nov 21st, 2025 at 1:49pm: kU6mdn74 wrote on Nov 21st, 2025 at 12:19pm: NATO is just as brave as forum posters who want to eradicate Russia but only from safety of internet forum  ;) if it weren't for their nukes russia would be even more of a laughing stock than they are now. They can't even win a war against a third world country like Ukraine. USA v Vietnam ? USA v Afghanistan ? vietnam was over 50 yrs ago and the USA won easily in Afghanistan ::)

The USA won in Afghanistan, that's why the Taliban are in power.  :D :D :


Your idiocy is like saying that the USA won the second world war, that's why the Nazis are in power throughout Europe and Imperial Japan in Asia.


You are just too stupid and thick for human consumption.  What 's why gweggy laps you ip..

Frank wrote on Nov 21^st, 2025 at 7:22pm:

John Smith wrote on Nov 21st, 2025 at 4:32pm: aquascoot wrote on Nov 21st, 2025 at 1:59pm: John Smith wrote on Nov 21st, 2025 at 1:49pm: kU6mdn74 wrote on Nov 21st, 2025 at 12:19pm: NATO is just as brave as forum posters who want to eradicate Russia but only from safety of internet forum  ;) if it weren't for their nukes russia would be even more of a laughing stock than they are now. They can't even win a war against a third world country like Ukraine. USA v Vietnam ? USA v Afghanistan ? vietnam was over 50 yrs ago and the USA won easily in Afghanistan ::) The USA won in Afghanistan, that's why the Taliban are in power.  :D :D : Your idiocy is like saying that the USA won the second world war, that's why the Nazis are in power throughout Europe and Imperial Japan in Asia. You are just too stupid and thick for human consumption.  What 's why gweggy laps you ip..

Hence why you want the Nazis in power, dear boy. Boo hoo, no?

Fascism ended far too soon.

9
Karnal wrote on Nov 21^st, 2025 at 8:08pm:

Frank wrote on Nov 21st, 2025 at 7:22pm: John Smith wrote on Nov 21st, 2025 at 4:32pm: aquascoot wrote on Nov 21st, 2025 at 1:59pm: John Smith wrote on Nov 21st, 2025 at 1:49pm: kU6mdn74 wrote on Nov 21st, 2025 at 12:19pm: NATO is just as brave as forum posters who want to eradicate Russia but only from safety of internet forum  ;) if it weren't for their nukes russia would be even more of a laughing stock than they are now. They can't even win a war against a third world country like Ukraine. USA v Vietnam ? USA v Afghanistan ? vietnam was over 50 yrs ago and the USA won easily in Afghanistan ::) The USA won in Afghanistan, that's why the Taliban are in power.  :D :D : Your idiocy is like saying that the USA won the second world war, that's why the Nazis are in power throughout Europe and Imperial Japan in Asia. You are just too stupid and thick for human consumption.  What 's why gweggy laps you ip.. Hence why you want the Nazis in power, dear boy. Boo hoo, no? Fascism ended far too soon.

Or why paki karnal laps you up.


Sorry, gimacing idiotic paki, for leaving you out of the totally deranged morons' gallery.

( may I call you paki, son of the great nation of Pakistan?)

Frank wrote on Nov 21^st, 2025 at 7:22pm:

The USA won in Afghanistan, that's why the Taliban are in power.

the US didn't want to govern Afghanistan you dumbarse.  The US control was never meant to be permanent. They gave control back to the afghans The us went in and took control from the Taliban within weeks of invading. Russia on the other hand is struggling to make any ground against a third world country 3 years later despite outnumbering them 100 to 1.

John Smith wrote on Nov 21^st, 2025 at 9:19pm:

Frank wrote on Nov 21st, 2025 at 7:22pm: The USA won in Afghanistan, that's why the Taliban are in power.  the US didn't want to govern Afghanistan you dumbarse.  The US control was never meant to be permanent. They gave control back to the afghans The us went in and took control from the Taliban within weeks of invading. Russia on the other hand is struggling to make any ground against a third world country 3 years later despite outnumbering them 100 to 1.

Ukraine has advanced weapons from the US multi $trillion arms industry -
technology the Russians can't even imagine -

and real time information from 100s $billions worth of military satellites.

Quote:

Trump doing Putins' bidding

seems to be a popular pastime with right wingers



Quote:

Ex-leader of Reform UK in Wales Nathan Gill is being sentenced for taking bribes as part of a pro-Russia influence campaign - we're reporting on the hearing live from the Old Bailey Gill, 52, was paid thousands of pounds to give TV interviews in favour of a key Putin ally and to make speeches in the European Parliament, where he was an MEP from 2014 to 2020 His phone was seized by police and had a "long sequence" of WhatsApp messages with pro-Russian Ukrainian politician Oleg Voloshyn, the court hears The father-of-seven has admitted eight counts of bribery between 2018 and 2019, with prosecutors outlining how he read from Voloshyn's "script" in the European Parliament Gill was leader of UKIP in Wales from 2014 to 2016 and Reform UK Wales in 2021. Gill also represented North Wales in the National Assembly - now Welsh Parliament - between 2016 and 2017

https://www.bbc.com/news/live/c891403eddet?at_format=link&at_link_type=web_link&utm_social_post_id=584768453&at_link_origin=BBC_Wales_News&utm_social_handle_id=156060587793370&a

Bobby. wrote on Nov 21^st, 2025 at 9:26pm:

John Smith wrote on Nov 21st, 2025 at 9:19pm: Frank wrote on Nov 21st, 2025 at 7:22pm: The USA won in Afghanistan, that's why the Taliban are in power.  the US didn't want to govern Afghanistan you dumbarse.  The US control was never meant to be permanent. They gave control back to the afghans The us went in and took control from the Taliban within weeks of invading. Russia on the other hand is struggling to make any ground against a third world country 3 years later despite outnumbering them 100 to 1. Ukraine has advanced weapons from the US multi $trillion arms industry - technology the Russians can't even imagine - and real time information from 100s $billions worth of military satellites.

like i said, if it weren't for their nukes russia would be a global laughing stock

John Smith wrote on Nov 21^st, 2025 at 9:40pm:

Bobby. wrote on Nov 21st, 2025 at 9:26pm: John Smith wrote on Nov 21st, 2025 at 9:19pm: Frank wrote on Nov 21st, 2025 at 7:22pm: The USA won in Afghanistan, that's why the Taliban are in power.  the US didn't want to govern Afghanistan you dumbarse.  The US control was never meant to be permanent. They gave control back to the afghans The us went in and took control from the Taliban within weeks of invading. Russia on the other hand is struggling to make any ground against a third world country 3 years later despite outnumbering them 100 to 1. Ukraine has advanced weapons from the US multi $trillion arms industry - technology the Russians can't even imagine - and real time information from 100s $billions worth of military satellites. like i said, if it weren't for their nukes russia would be a global laughing stock

Russia's economy GDP, is only twice the size of Italy or Australia,
yet Russia is the largest country in the world by far.

And yes - they are a laughing stock except that they have more nukes than anyone else.
Still they can't use them without blowing the whole world up including themselves.

Bobby. wrote on Nov 21^st, 2025 at 9:44pm:

Russia's economy GDP, is only twice the size of Italy or Australia

not quite.  ........... $2.15T v $1.75T

John Smith wrote on Nov 21^st, 2025 at 10:06pm:

Bobby. wrote on Nov 21st, 2025 at 9:44pm: Russia's economy GDP, is only twice the size of Italy or Australia not quite.  ........... $2.15T v $1.75T

I stand corrected:

Google AI:

Italy's economy is larger than Russia's, with Italy's GDP estimated at around $2.3 trillion compared to Russia's at approximately $1.67 trillion. Italy also has a significantly higher GDP per capita, though Russia's GDP has shown recent growth that exceeds some Western economies.


Russia has a larger total GDP $2.02 trillion compared to Australia approx. $1.83 trillion in 2025)