The vast majority of Taiwan's citizens want Taiwan to (continue to be) independent of China.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiwan_independence_movement

Unlike China, Taiwan is a democracy and the citizens are allowed to inform themselves, criticise the government and openly debate the issue. They are not constantly spoonfed lies by the government like the citizens of China have to put up with.

The international community is increasingly supporting Taiwan's continued independence.

However, China still claims Taiwan as part of it's territory. Some Taiwanese even claim China as part of Taiwan's territory. Obviously, neither of these views reflect the current reality.

Should China recognise the current reality that Taiwan is an independent nation with a political system that is incompatible with China's, making it virtually impossible to peacefully unite the nations with the support of Taiwan's people? The alternative, continuing to claim that Taiwan is part of China, is seen as a imperialist threat that heightens military tensions in the region and abroad. The only foreseeable way that China and Taiwan could be peacefully re-united into a single country is if China itself became a democracy - which may well happen, though the current CCP regime sees democracy as a dirty word, even though the CCP is internally democratic. Just one example of the impenetrable hypocrisy and spin of the CCP.

Gee. Citizens of the so-called 'democracies' of the west are being spoonfed lies from Media propagandists like BBC UK, ABC Australia, CNN, NBC America. Along with oppressive Leftism narratives of Political Correctness imprisonments and falsifying histories via Cancel Culture agendas.
I'm sure the citizens of Taiwan prefer salvation from the mainlanders than being sexually abused by LGBTQ Democrats trying to come in from behind.

So you want to see a democracy destroyed as a protest against bias at the ABC?

Yes. Of course.
Especially a Democracy based upon the ruins of an Athenian past like an indigenous past of European politics that is a dead end.

Great Britain could 'let go'.  (Hong Kong)
But Democrat USA seems it can't... just like Korea and Vietnam.

I'm not asking about Korea, Vietnam or the USA. I am asking you about Taiwan and China.

You know exactly that Taiwan is just another potential Korea & Vietnam with USA's MEDDLING in Asia.
USA is not the UN for starters.
They would be wiser to deny Democrat meddling, using Taiwan to undermine Xi and leaving the issue to the 'chinese' of Taiwan and the mainland to sort out. It might turn out for the better you know.

Quote:

It might turn out for the better you know.

How so? The CCP has already killed about 100 million Chinese people. Mostly by trying to help them. What good could possibly come from letting them have their way with Taiwan?

I know exactly what the potential is, which is exactly why I am suggesting China should stop its imperialist posturing, and why I am asking you about China and Taiwan.

What is it with this generation of children so blithely rejecting democracy every time they don't get exactly what they want? Do you actually believe in benign dictatorship, or have you simply not thought that far ahead? "I don't like my parent's taxes being spent on the ABC, maybe a regime that has already killed 100 million people and counting would make me feel better".

Is Taiwan UN member?

Battery recharged.

How would you think about American Democrats meddling with making Tasmania independent from the Australian mainland?
You know. More sports stadiums n all.

Politics in Yellow Asia is not it's true culture. Unlike Sport and living in cities to mass produce yellow populations. Politics there only divides and conflicts and yellow politics is only a reaction to the intrusions of other corrupt politics from other countries that seek control.
As for millions of dead? Well you get the same from countries and peoples who rely on mass production population to be the basis of their strategy. Russia, India and the USA rely heavily on this 'fodder' confidence. Life is cheap, but toilet paper is expensive. It's a double edged sword of such countries and peoples. A case of "Meh. More of us where we come from" reliance to achieve goals.
Australians don't breed as well as that. One person dies on a playground swing and the playgrounds of Australia are shut down.

So with that said. Leave Taiwan to the Chinese, because Taiwanese are Chinese. Asia doesn't need another Korean or Vietnam because of American Democrats Leftism that seems more interested in the well-being of Asia, than its own nation.

Quote:

How would you think about American Democrats meddling with making Tasmania independent from the Australian mainland?

I am not suggesting we meddle with anything Jasin. I am suggesting no-one meddle with Taiwan. Somehow flipping that into its opposite makes me think you have swallowed the communist handbook. Do you realise that Taiwan is a separate, independent country to China? A better analogy would be the US "interfering" to make Australia a separate country from Indonesia, or Germany a separate country from France.

That would be a far fetched example. Taiwan on the other hand is so very much closer to void that. As for Communism? It's only failure is that it is compromised by Northern Hemisphere politics in general, where anything like a RePUBLIC as well, fails to empower the people as a whole (the mass) - only empowering the individuals at the top.
Australian Egalitarianism is much like what Communism originally aimed for. But politics in the southern hemisphere succeeds for 'the people' more so than for the individuals.
So for Communism in China? You know - the thing that the USSR forced upon them to adopt or else. Well it's the best it can do considering it's true cultural destiny is not to be a political nation of people at all.
It would be more justified to blame politics itself for what has happened in China.
Now. Is Hong Kong really that bad now?

Jasin wrote on Nov 19^th, 2025 at 3:12pm:

You know exactly that Taiwan is just another potential Korea & Vietnam with USA's MEDDLING in Asia. USA is not the UN for starters. They would be wiser to deny Democrat meddling, using Taiwan to undermine Xi and leaving the issue to the 'chinese' of Taiwan and the mainland to sort out. It might turn out for the better you know.

The Chinese of Taiwan don't want to be part of mainland China.

That's why they're still there.

It's the same as the Chinese of Hong Kong.... they didn't want to be re-absorbed back into the CCP run Chinese mainland.

But the Brits relinquished them back & they had no say.

Any opposition was quickly squashed by CCP stooges & storm troopers.

MHO - phuk the CCP dictatorial Govt.

The Brits did the right thing.
Hong Kong belonged to China.
Let's not forget that Hong Kong became the gateway for internationals to exploit the Chinese and turn them into drug addicts.

Now the only excuse of pumping Taiwanese independence is because of the ROC Nationalist Party 🎉🥳. That's the only difference. Beyond that. Cultural history, race and more has Taiwan as being Chinese... being 'China'.
Also, ROC states that they themselves are 'China' as well and rightful owners of the mainland... and even Mongolia.
It's something that other countries need to stay out of and let them settle for themselves.

Jasin wrote on Nov 19^th, 2025 at 5:43pm:

That would be a far fetched example. Taiwan on the other hand is so very much closer to void that. As for Communism? It's only failure is that it is compromised by Northern Hemisphere politics in general, where anything like a RePUBLIC as well, fails to empower the people as a whole (the mass) - only empowering the individuals at the top. Australian Egalitarianism is much like what Communism originally aimed for. But politics in the southern hemisphere succeeds for 'the people' more so than for the individuals. So for Communism in China? You know - the thing that the USSR forced upon them to adopt or else. Well it's the best it can do considering it's true cultural destiny is not to be a political nation of people at all. It would be more justified to blame politics itself for what has happened in China. Now. Is Hong Kong really that bad now?

As for Communism? It's only failure is that it is compromised by Northern Hemisphere politics in general?

Wow JaSin - you are awfully close to being on the cultural Marxist list.   :-[

I'm just telling it as it is regarding 'Political culture' of this world. 🌍

Like I said. Australian Egalitarianism is what Communism tried to be.
I'm sure we would be ok if we were WWW.COMmunism.  ;) :D

Quote:

The vast majority of Taiwan's citizens want Taiwan to (continue to be) independent of China. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiwan_independence_movement Unlike China, Taiwan is a democracy and the citizens are allowed to inform themselves, criticise the government and openly debate the issue. They are not constantly spoonfed lies by the government like the citizens of China have to put up with. The international community is increasingly supporting Taiwan's continued independence. However, China still claims Taiwan as part of it's territory. Some Taiwanese even claim China as part of Taiwan's territory.

IMAGE.....
https://i.imgflip.com/7i5iif.jpg

'Mainland China' ???

Did you mean West Taiwan ?

That authoritarian FASCIST state ?

Jasin wrote on Nov 19^th, 2025 at 5:53pm:

The Brits did the right thing. Hong Kong belonged to China. Let's not forget that Hong Kong became the gateway for internationals to exploit the Chinese and turn them into drug addicts. Now the only excuse of pumping Taiwanese independence is because of the ROC Nationalist Party 🎉🥳. That's the only difference. Beyond that. Cultural history, race and more has Taiwan as being Chinese... being 'China'. Also, ROC states that they themselves are 'China' as well and rightful owners of the mainland... and even Mongolia. It's something that other countries need to stay out of and let them settle for themselves.

Bullshit they did.

And the Chinese had Opium long before the brits knew what it was.


Quote:

The history of opium use in China spans over 1,300 years,

Britain was a Drug Cartel in Hong Kong.
Nothing more.
But hey. Great Britain hasn't done well in Asia or Africa now. ;)

Dinnertime.
Might order some Communist Chinese takeaway here in Australia. :D

Jasin wrote on Nov 19^th, 2025 at 5:43pm:

......As for Communism? It's only failure is that it is compromised by Northern Hemisphere politics in general, where anything like a RePUBLIC as well, fails to empower the people as a whole (the mass) - only empowering the individuals at the top. Australian Egalitarianism is much like what Communism originally aimed for. But politics in the southern hemisphere succeeds for 'the people' more so than for the individuals. So for Communism in China? You know - the thing that the USSR forced upon them to adopt or else. Well it's the best it can do considering it's true cultural destiny is not to be a political nation of people at all. It would be more justified to blame politics itself for what has happened in China. Now. Is Hong Kong really that bad now?

Bobby. wrote on Nov 19^th, 2025 at 5:56pm:

As for Communism? It's only failure is that it is compromised by Northern Hemisphere politics in general? Wow JaSin - you are awfully close to being on the cultural Marxist list.   :-[/quote] WWW search.... reasons why 'true' socialism always fails Google.......AI Overview [quote] Arguments for why socialism fails often cite issues with incentive structures, economic planning, and political and social consequences. Critics contend that a lack of personal profit and reward removes the incentive to work hard, while centralized control and bureaucracy lead to inefficiency, shortages, and a disconnect between planners and the public. Furthermore, many historical examples have been linked to political repression and a decline in living standards. Economic criticisms     Lack of incentives: When rewards for hard work and success are removed, critics argue that there is less motivation for individuals and businesses to be productive or innovative.     Inefficient central planning: Government planners, unable to process vast amounts of information, may be unable to set prices and allocate resources efficiently, leading to shortages and surpluses.     Absence of profit and loss: A system without a profit-and-loss mechanism can't effectively measure or reward economic performance, making it difficult to identify and correct inefficiencies.     Distorted price signals: Without market-driven prices, the economy loses a critical tool for transmitting information about scarcity and demand, which hinders rational decision-making. Political and social criticisms     Bureaucracy and inefficiency: Centralized control can lead to a large, inefficient bureaucracy that is slow to respond to the needs of the public.     Suppression of individual rights: Critics point to historical cases where socialist governments have used oppressive tactics, such as imprisonment and violence, to suppress dissent.     Erosion of living standards: Some historical socialist experiments have resulted in a decline in productivity and a lower standard of living for the population compared to market-based economies.     "Not-real-socialism" defense: A recurring argument is that when socialist systems fail, proponents often claim it wasn't "real" socialism, which they argue is a way to avoid accountability for past failures, according to The Cornell Review and Forbes.

Also, there is no integrity [tolerance.....of truth] in the socialist model.

Socialist models, are driven by a 'collective' aspiration for egalitarianism.

Socialism......its i great idea.......but lacking any tolerance of [a requisite] constructive criticism.......and a spirit of integrity.

Isn't Taiwan place where NZ Maori came from?

kU6mdn74 wrote on Nov 19^th, 2025 at 6:38pm:

Isn't Taiwan place where NZ Maori came from?

No - they came from Pacific islands like Fiji, Tonga  etc -
there are 100s of small islands.

Google "Do Maori descend from Taiwan?"

Quote:

Evidence indicates that their ancestry (as part of the larger group of Austronesian peoples) stretches back 5,000 years, to the indigenous peoples of Taiwan. Māori people - Wikipedia Wikipedia › Māori_people

Jasin wrote on Nov 19^th, 2025 at 5:53pm:

Now the only excuse of pumping Taiwanese independence

Newsflash Jasin. Taiwan is independent, whether you pump it or not. The CCP does not control it. The only thing I am pumping is the avoidance of WWIII over petty Chinese imperialism.


Quote:

is because of the ROC Nationalist Party 🎉🥳. That's the only difference.

Did you miss the part about the 100 million Chinese people killed by the CCP? I challenge you to name a single regime that has killed more people than the regime you want foisted upon the Taiwanese. The CCP regime is worse than the holocaust. Worse even than the Russian communists.

kU6mdn74 wrote on Nov 19^th, 2025 at 6:38pm:

Isn't Taiwan place where NZ Maori came from?

Yes. Genetic study has sourced all Polynesians to Taiwan and surrounding areas to a lesser extent.
Might explain why China gets good favour in Oceania next door?

freediver wrote on Nov 19^th, 2025 at 7:32pm:

Jasin wrote on Nov 19th, 2025 at 5:53pm: Now the only excuse of pumping Taiwanese independence Newsflash Jasin. Taiwan is independent, whether you pump it or not. The CCP does not control it. The only thing I am pumping is the avoidance of WWIII over petty Chinese imperialism. Quote: is because of the ROC Nationalist Party 🎉🥳. That's the only difference. Did you miss the part about the 100 million Chinese people killed by the CCP? I challenge you to name a single regime that has killed more people than the regime you want foisted upon the Taiwanese. The CCP regime is worse than the holocaust. Worse even than the Russian communists.

Point 1: Taiwanese independence from the mainland is only icing, not the cake and that icing is just a political difference with the Taiwanese difference being not so long ago as the same as was on the mainland.
You can just have the icing. I'll enjoy the cake.

Point 2: You are correct. 100 million lives lost. Is it still the highest in regards to percentage of population at the time in comparison to other nations or people?
Maybe they should have had some Black people to manage their lands and prevent a famine. Seems yellow people are only good at cities.

So despite the 100 million deaths caused by the CCP, you would still prefer them because the ABC is biased?

Would you wish this upon yourself, or only upon the people of Taiwan?

Do you think they are somehow genetically predisposed to want to be ruled by the most murderous regime in world history?

If 100 million deaths is just the icing, what exactly is the cake? The choice is not between the CCP and the holocaust, or the CCP and the Russian communists, or the CCP and some other murderous regime. The choice is between the CCP and the current Taiwanese government - a modern, progressive, liberal democracy. You can't fudge the numbers to make the CCP look good in comparison, even if you somehow factor in the ABC bias.

Despite the political incompetence of the CCP  or even the ROC (or even archaic Western politics based on Rome & Athens) to prevent such death.
I say, let them both reunite in a more peaceful assimilation rather than the Korea/Vietnam type confliction, both of which caused a lot of death too and a repeated scenario which the American Democrats/Media pushed towards during the Biden term.
Why must the Taiwan/Mainland issue go down that path? It wasn't good for Vietnam or Korea - many died needlessly.
Why not take the more peaceful path untried? Who knows, it might work out for the better and Taiwan ROC might cause change in mainland CCP  more than you think? It might even bring an end to the CCP itself?

Jasin wrote on Nov 19^th, 2025 at 8:59pm:

Despite the political incompetence of the CCP  or even the ROC (or even archaic Western politics based on Rome & Athens) to prevent such death. I say, let them both reunite in a more peaceful assimilation rather than the Korea/Vietnam type confliction, both of which caused a lot of death too and a repeated scenario which the American Democrats/Media pushed towards during the Biden term. Why must the Taiwan/Mainland issue go down that path? It wasn't good for Vietnam or Korea - many died needlessly. Why not take the more peaceful path untried? Who knows, it might work out for the better and Taiwan ROC might cause change in mainland CCP  more than you think? It might even bring an end to the CCP itself?

Please, someone....'Tell him he's dreaming!'



jasin,

In this world, the guy with the bigger stick, is the one who makes all of the rules.

Human history has taught us that.

Not so ?



We need a better system [of self governance].

But then, there is that guy with the bigger stick, will always turn up !       :P

Quote:

Despite the political incompetence of the CCP  or even the ROC (or even archaic Western politics based on Rome & Athens) to prevent such death.

A lot of it was deliberate. The CCP are mass murderers, not just incompetent managers.


Quote:

I say, let them both reunite in a more peaceful assimilation rather than the Korea/Vietnam type confliction

Why? Are you assuming the only options are violent or peaceful unification? You do realise that the people of Taiwan don't actually want to be part of China right? Especially if it means the loss of democracy and all their rights. How exactly do you expect to achieve a "peaceful assimilation"? And why do you want it in the first place?

Do you realise that China would do a far better job at maintaining peace by not trying to "assimilate" the Taiwanese?


Quote:

Why must the Taiwan/Mainland issue go down that path?

You are the only one insisting on it. But if China does try to force itself on Taiwan, violence is inevitable, for the same reason that we would fight against any dictatorship that tried to destroy our freedoms and democracy.

You both say that.
You both say that as if Yellow people don't know what's best for them.
You see Japan.
They see Nihon.

Trust me. The CCP will not be around within 50 years.
The Nationals from Taiwan WILL.  ;)
Though they really should leave Mongolia alone.

But, hey. I did say China will invade Russia (and India) for over a decade now. Especially when the USA has removed itself as the justified threat.
The CCP is designed to deal with hostility. Not 'peace'.
That FD & Yadda is the missing scale in the Chinese Dragon's 🐉 armour.

JaSin knows.

Now tell me why China is well received in Oceania next door, even more so than Australia is?

Quote:

Now tell me why China is well received in Oceania next door, even more so than Australia is?

They give them more money. But money can't buy you love.

Are you saying that to avoid war, China should occupy Taiwan so that the Taiwanese democrats can overthrow the CCP?

Bingo! You got it FD. Well done.
Makes you wanna watch my cuz Russell in the movie Gladiator and see how the ROC will defeat the CCP from within...
...and the only way to get in close from within, is to peacefully submit in servitude to start with. Remember. It's all about saving face.  ;)

Now. Did you see me outside the Chinese embassy with a big sign  wishing Xi a "Happy Birthday" in mandarins nailed to it?

...let Gollum CCP have his 'preciousss' Taiwan... in the end.
The West needs to let it go.

**evil laugh 😈

It's odd that all the lefties take issue with applying this concept to Jews, but not Asians.

freediver wrote on Nov 19^th, 2025 at 12:02pm:

The vast majority of Taiwan's citizens want Taiwan to (continue to be) independent of China.

Vast majority?

Yet:

https://www.npr.org/2025/07/26/g-s1-79704/taiwanese-voters-reject-a-bid-to-remove-lawmakers-from-a-china-friendly-party

26 July 2025 — The independence-leaning ruling Democratic Progressive Party won the last presidential election, but the China-friendly Nationalists (KMT) and the Taiwan Workers Party won the recent 'recall elections':

Taiwanese voters rejected a DPP bid to oust about one-fifth of lawmakers, all from the opposition Nationalist Party, in a recall election Saturday, dampening hopes for the ruling party to flip the balance of power in the self-ruled island's legislature.

The independence-leaning ruling Democratic Progressive Party won last year's presidential election, but the China-friendly Nationalists, also known as the KMT, and the smaller Taiwan People's Party have enough seats to form a majority bloc.

......

You can see why the pro-independence DPP 'freedom or death' morons want to get rid of the more pragmatic members of parliament who want peace with the mainland and therefore don't support  'Taiwan independence'.


Quote:

Unlike China, Taiwan is a democracy and the citizens are allowed to inform themselves, criticise the government and openly debate the issue. They are not constantly spoonfed lies by the government like the citizens of China have to put up with.

Says the narrative from another 'freedom - or death'! ideologue who won't do the dying (hopefully...) when the DPP tries to assert it's "freedom", ie, independence from the mainland. 

Meanwhile most mainlanders  are horrified by the fake 'freedom' of  blind-leading-the-blind 'democracy',  after seeing the Capitol riots in the US. 


Quote:

The international community is increasingly supporting Taiwan's continued independence.

Said 'independence' not recognised by the UN? You are confused.


Quote:

However, China still claims Taiwan as part of it's territory. Some Taiwanese even claim China as part of Taiwan's territory. Obviously, neither of these views reflect the current reality.

Resulting in a sovereignty stalemate, so long as the US supports the DPP goons, on ideological grounds. 


Quote:

Should China recognise the current reality that Taiwan is an independent nation with a political system that is incompatible with China's, making it virtually impossible to peacefully unite the nations with the support of Taiwan's people?

No.

Political systems are really only confused systems resulting from dysfunctional economic systems ("it's the economy, stupid"); hence the political chaos in most democracies around the world today. 


Quote:

The alternative, continuing to claim that Taiwan is part of China, is seen as a imperialist threat that heightens military tensions in the region and abroad.

..ie, as seen by 'freedom or death''/survival of the fittest/free-market ideologues. 


Quote:

The only foreseeable way that China and Taiwan could be peacefully re-united into a single country is if China itself became a democracy - which may well happen, though the current CCP regime sees democracy as a dirty word, even though the CCP is internally democratic. Just one example of the impenetrable hypocrisy and spin of the CCP.

Hey....congratulations: an intelligent comment at last; indeed  "the CCP is internally democratic", and appreciated by the vast majority of mainlanders (c.90%, according to a Harvard poll) who in fact have a favourable opnion of their central government,  unlike the view of the electors in democracies who are split into numerous contending interests, and forced to elect unstable governments despised by more than half the population, eg Labor only gained 30% of the primary vote in the last election, yet it's governing with a huge majority in the HoR.     

Quote:

Vast majority?

Yes. I provided a link in case you were confused.


Quote:

but the China-friendly Nationalists (KMT) and the Taiwan Workers Party won the recent 'recall elections'

LOL. I see you share the CCP's capacity for self delusion.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuomintang


Quote:

As the KMT supports the ROC as the only representative of China, it opposes both Chinese unification under the PRC and formal Taiwan independence.

What do you think that means, little pink?

TGD,

Quote:

"the CCP is internally democratic", and appreciated by the vast majority of mainlanders (c.90%, according to a Harvard poll) who in fact have a favourable opnion of their central government,  unlike the view of the electors in democracies who are split into numerous contending interests, and forced to elect unstable governments despised by more than half the population, eg Labor only gained 30% of the primary vote in the last election, yet it's governing with a huge majority in the HoR.

 



Dear TGD,
are you now or have you ever been a member of the CCP?

Are you Bobby a member of the archaic Westernism like the USA which rejected Great Britain (the Holy Grail) to adopt the mainland European powers of Politics like Germany (did), France, Italy, Greece, etc?
...didn't work out for Germany now did it?
France is about to fail.
Might explain why Confederation failed in USA.
Why Democracy is failing.
...and why Nations around the world just don't trust the USA or accept it as the 'true political' in which to follow.

Jasin wrote on Nov 20^th, 2025 at 4:25pm:

Are you Bobby a member of the archaic Westernism like the USA which rejected Great Britain (the Holy Grail) to adopt the mainland European powers of Politics like Germany (did), France, Italy, Greece, etc? ...didn't work out for Germany now did it? France is about to fail. Might explain why Confederation failed in USA. Why Democracy is failing. ...and why Nations around the world just don't trust the USA or accept it as the 'true political' in which to follow.

My problem is with mass uncontrolled immigration.

they just let anyone in -
even people with no qualifications that
go straight on to the dole.
They invited 3rd world no hopers here that no other country would accept.

freediver wrote on Nov 20^th, 2025 at 3:55pm:

Quote: Vast majority? Yes. I provided a link in case you were confused.

Not confused: the non-DPP voters who elected the (anti-independence) majority in parliament (which is blocking the DPP's independence push) don't want independence which will result in the destruction of the island ....and worse: you have been warned by China who is already strong enough to cause the Pentagon to reconsider....


Quote:

FD As the KMT supports the ROC as the only representative of China, it opposes both Chinese unification under the PRC and formal Taiwan independence. What do you think that means, little pink?

It means the non-DPP voters who want peaceful reunification, not war, will have to convince the CCP they possess a superior governing ideology. 

But time is running out for them: in a decade, over a billion people on the mainland will have a per capita income as high as the islanders, and an economy
50 times as large, with a PPP GDP double that of the US.

Game over.
    

And let's be reasonable. The USA can NOT protect or even save Taiwan.

Bobby. wrote on Nov 20^th, 2025 at 4:00pm:

TGD, Quote: "the CCP is internally democratic", and appreciated by the vast majority of mainlanders (c.90%, according to a Harvard poll) who in fact have a favourable opnion of their central government,  unlike the view of the electors in democracies who are split into numerous contending interests, and forced to elect unstable governments despised by more than half the population, eg Labor only gained 30% of the primary vote in the last election, yet it's governing with a huge majority in the HoR.      Dear TGD, are you now or have you ever been a member of the CCP?

I think you have asked me that before. 

No.

By now you should know my interest is in achieving common prosperity aka the general welfare - an economic task,  irrespective of one-party, or multi-party government. 

Neoclassical economics in the context of elections based on self-interest cannot achieve common prosperity, hence my interest in the China model which has common prosperity as a stated goal.

In any case, see:

https://publicmoneypublicgood.net/

'Public Money: Public Good'. 

The Commonwealth can fund these essentials sufficiently and indefinitely without risk of financial instability or insolvency.

Plenty of posts in the MMT thread outlining how.

Black Maths will rule the likes of China.
Pushing aside White Politics like a tax write-off.

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 20^th, 2025 at 4:48pm:

Bobby. wrote on Nov 20th, 2025 at 4:00pm: TGD, Quote: "the CCP is internally democratic", and appreciated by the vast majority of mainlanders (c.90%, according to a Harvard poll) who in fact have a favourable opnion of their central government,  unlike the view of the electors in democracies who are split into numerous contending interests, and forced to elect unstable governments despised by more than half the population, eg Labor only gained 30% of the primary vote in the last election, yet it's governing with a huge majority in the HoR.      Dear TGD, are you now or have you ever been a member of the CCP? I think you have asked me that before.  No. By now you should know my interest is in achieving common prosperity aka the general welfare - an economic task,  irrespective of one-party, or multi-party government.  https://publicmoneypublicgood.net/ 'Public Money: Public Good'.  The Commonwealth can fund these essentials sufficiently and indefinitely without risk of financial instability or insolvency. Plenty of posts in the MMT thread outlining how.

But if it quacks like a duck and looks like a duck.   :-/

Many tourists and YouTuber travellers go to China.
It isn't as strict or controlling as people think.
Better than going to Russia, Turkmenistan or other countries in Africa and other regions. A lot safer than the USA.

Bobby. wrote on Nov 20^th, 2025 at 5:04pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 20th, 2025 at 4:48pm: Bobby. wrote on Nov 20th, 2025 at 4:00pm: TGD, Quote: "the CCP is internally democratic", and appreciated by the vast majority of mainlanders (c.90%, according to a Harvard poll) who in fact have a favourable opnion of their central government,  unlike the view of the electors in democracies who are split into numerous contending interests, and forced to elect unstable governments despised by more than half the population, eg Labor only gained 30% of the primary vote in the last election, yet it's governing with a huge majority in the HoR.      Dear TGD, are you now or have you ever been a member of the CCP? I think you have asked me that before.  No. By now you should know my interest is in achieving common prosperity aka the general welfare - an economic task,  irrespective of one-party, or multi-party government.  https://publicmoneypublicgood.net/ 'Public Money: Public Good'.  The Commonwealth can fund these essentials sufficiently and indefinitely without risk of financial instability or insolvency. Plenty of posts in the MMT thread outlining how. But if it quacks like a duck and looks like a duck.   :-/

See the addendum to my last post:

<<Neoclassical economics in the context of elections based on self-interest cannot achieve common prosperity, hence my interest in the China model which has common prosperity as a stated goal.

In any case, see:

https://publicmoneypublicgood.net/

'Public Money: Public Good'. (PMPG)

The Commonwealth can fund these essentials sufficiently and indefinitely without risk of financial instability or insolvency.

Plenty of posts in the MMT thread outlining how.>>

.....

Cease being so ideological like FD; communism..... capitalism, who cares, China is neither; and it's the system which creates prosperity for all, as advocated in the PMPG link, which is the worthwhile system. 

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 20^th, 2025 at 4:28pm:

freediver wrote on Nov 20th, 2025 at 3:55pm: Quote: Vast majority? Yes. I provided a link in case you were confused. Not confused: the non-DPP voters who elected the (anti-independence) majority in parliament (which is blocking the DPP's independence push) don't want independence which will result in the destruction of the island ....and worse: you have been warned by China who is already strong enough to cause the Pentagon to reconsider.... [quote]FD As the KMT supports the ROC as the only representative of China, it opposes both Chinese unification under the PRC and formal Taiwan independence. What do you think that means, little pink?

It means the non-DPP voters who want peaceful reunification, not war, will have to convince the CCP they possess a superior governing ideology. 

But time is running out for them: in a decade, over a billion people on the mainland will have a per capita income as high as the islanders, and an economy
50 times as large, with a PPP GDP double that of the US.

Game over.
    
[/quote]

If the Americans said they wanted to peacefully unify China and Taiwan into one democratic country, with the current Taiwanese government as the interim managers, and the CCP consigned to the dustbin of history where they belong, would you also describe them as being "China-friendly"?

No.

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 20^th, 2025 at 5:25pm:

Cease being so ideological like FD; communism..... capitalism, who cares, China is neither; and it's the system which creates prosperity for all, as advocated in the PMPG link, which is the worthwhile system.

Communism was never about making everyone equal -
those at the top of the communist pyramid are outrageously rich -
a bit like capitalism.

Commies would steal all houses then give the best ones to the top party officials.

freediver wrote on Nov 19^th, 2025 at 3:22pm:

Quote: It might turn out for the better you know. How so? The CCP has already killed about 100 million Chinese people. Mostly by trying to help them. What good could possibly come from letting them have their way with Taiwan? I know exactly what the potential is, which is exactly why I am suggesting China should stop its imperialist posturing, and why I am asking you about China and Taiwan. What is it with this generation of children so blithely rejecting democracy every time they don't get exactly what they want? Do you actually believe in benign dictatorship, or have you simply not thought that far ahead? "I don't like my parent's taxes being spent on the ABC, maybe a regime that has already killed 100 million people and counting would make me feel better".

If course not. JaSin believes in completely despotic dictatorships, everybody here knows that.

Now, China has elections. Are you suggesting they're not a democracy?

How so?

Karnal wrote on Nov 20^th, 2025 at 10:30pm:

freediver wrote on Nov 19th, 2025 at 3:22pm: Quote: It might turn out for the better you know. How so? The CCP has already killed about 100 million Chinese people. Mostly by trying to help them. What good could possibly come from letting them have their way with Taiwan? I know exactly what the potential is, which is exactly why I am suggesting China should stop its imperialist posturing, and why I am asking you about China and Taiwan. What is it with this generation of children so blithely rejecting democracy every time they don't get exactly what they want? Do you actually believe in benign dictatorship, or have you simply not thought that far ahead? "I don't like my parent's taxes being spent on the ABC, maybe a regime that has already killed 100 million people and counting would make me feel better". If course not. JaSin believes in completely despotic dictatorships, everybody here knows that. Now, China has elections. Are you suggesting they're not a democracy? How so?

Gawd you are a bloody ijit.

The Soviet Union had elections.So does Cuba, North Korea, Iran.  So they must be democracies, eh??


How deep does your moronic streak go?
All the way down.

Bobby. wrote on Nov 20^th, 2025 at 10:22pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 20th, 2025 at 5:25pm: Cease being so ideological like FD; communism..... capitalism, who cares, China is neither; and it's the system which creates prosperity for all, as advocated in the PMPG link, which is the worthwhile system.  Communism was never about making everyone equal - those at the top of the communist pyramid are outrageously rich - a bit like capitalism. Commies would steal all houses then give the best ones to the top party officials.

Cease being so ideolo.....oh never mind.

You remain incapable of addressing the substance of the posts you imagine you are replying to.

Note: neither the Chinese term 'common prosperity', nor the Oz based group 'Public Money:Public Good', involve 'making everyone equal'.

I can see why some on Ozpol insult your intelligence... though in your defence 'making everyone equal' is an ignorant RW construct often employed to avoid cosidering how governments can eradicate entreched, systemic poverty. 

Lenin's Communism was designed 'for the people' as are Re-Publics.
In other words, political power in the control and management of the people at large. But as always, Politics in the northern hemisphere always falls into a minority population of people over the non political mass.
I only know of South America where the Workers owning a factory or business and are in overall power that employ management's to run them administrative. Sunrise in Australia is ruled by the Farmers, not the Admin or factory workers.
So the intention of Communism and other Northern Hemisphere political styles is there, but fail to achieve this.
Even USA politics. With the majority of population being of the Art world. The minority populating Political has to buy it's votes and voting is not mandatory. We saw the Democrats spend triple of what Trump Republicans did and they bought the Media to blockade any Trump promo let alone attack Trump. In essence, not everyone voting also makes the American system flawed.

Australia has the best system. Not just because it is the Windsor system. But because everyone, political or not - has to take responsibility and vote.
Alas, for northern Communism, Democracies, etc. They always fall into minority power and these tend to over-achiever into absolutism of just negating or corrupting the vote aspect of being of any real importance.

I guess this is where Australia comes into the global picture of where the bottom of the pyramid hold the political power for the first time in history. Communism could succeed here, as well as a true Republic etc.

Quote:

Lenin's Communism was designed 'for the people' as are Re-Publics. In other words, political power in the control and management of the people at large. But as always, Politics in the northern hemisphere always falls into a minority population of people over the non political mass.

Not always. The reason communism is associated with violent oppression and mass murder is because people don't vote for it. It has to be imposed on them. So only violent mass murderers ever achieve it. The CCP had to kill about 20 million Chinese people to set up a communist state, in addition to hiding like cowards and letting the Japanese rape and pillage their way across the country in WWII. Their death toll has now reached about 100 million.

Even the Chinese communist party has abandoned communism.

Yes. And Gillard nearly forced Australians to vote again because she didn't like a Hung Parliament AS VOTED BY THE PEOPLE. She nearly crossed that line.

All Northern Hemisphere politics cross that line.
The ESTABLISHMENT of British politics also did in regards to going against the People's vote on Brexit. This is why Theresa May resigned in disgust.

freediver wrote on Nov 20^th, 2025 at 9:03pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 20th, 2025 at 4:28pm: freediver wrote on Nov 20th, 2025 at 3:55pm: Quote: Vast majority? Yes. I provided a link in case you were confused. Not confused: the non-DPP voters who elected the (anti-independence) majority in parliament (which is blocking the DPP's independence push) don't want independence which will result in the destruction of the island ....and worse: you have been warned by China who is already strong enough to cause the Pentagon to reconsider.... [quote]FD As the KMT supports the ROC as the only representative of China, it opposes both Chinese unification under the PRC and formal Taiwan independence. What do you think that means, little pink? It means the non-DPP voters who want peaceful reunification, not war, will have to convince the CCP they possess a superior governing ideology.  But time is running out for them: in a decade, over a billion people on the mainland will have a per capita income as high as the islanders, and an economy 50 times as large, with a PPP GDP double that of the US. Game over.

If the Americans said... [/quote]

Oh no: another FD question based on his democratic "freedom" ideology, which is sure to result in more GIGO....but let's read on.... 


Quote:

...they wanted to peacefully unify China and Taiwan into one democratic country, with the current Taiwanese government as the interim managers,....

That's a 'novel' scenario: the US is as committed to delusional democratic "freedom" as you and the DPP are, while US democracy itself displays the worst level of hyper-partisanship in the world...but let's read on:


Quote:

....and the CCP consigned to the dustbin of history where they belong, would you also describe them as being "China-friendly"?

Good try FD - and thanks for the laugh; GIGO takes some wonderful turns at times  :D.

There are a number of ways of answering that question...

eg 'yes,

or

'no'.

But I'll be generous and answer a more straight-foward version of your question:

"If the Americans said they wanted to peacefully unify China and Taiwan, would you also describe (the non-DPP majority on Taiwan) as being "China-friendly"?.

No, if the US could achieve unification peacefully. 

Yes: if the US can't achieve unification peacefully.

But you are (absurdly) positing the US CAN achieve unification peacefully.

Only the non-DPP majority on Taiwan can convince the mainlanders to adopt delusional 'democratic "freedom" ideology, peacefully. 

Whereas the DPP are relying on the US to enforce Taiwan's permanent separation from China, with a view to UN membership.

But if the US crawls back into its hole when faced by a more powerful PLA, it's game over for the "freedom or death" DPP fools on the island.

Quote:

But you are (absurdly) positing the US CAN achieve unification peacefully.

Can the CCP achieve peaceful unification with Taiwan, without first turning China into a real democracy?


Quote:

and worse: you have been warned by China who is already strong enough to cause the Pentagon to reconsider....

Warned what? That they are going to kill another 100 million people if they don't get their way with Taiwan?

freediver wrote on Nov 21^st, 2025 at 11:46am:

Can the CCP achieve peaceful RE-unification with Taiwan, without first turning China into a real democracy?

Yes; if the US butts out,  the PLA can enforce an embargo on the island, cripple its economy and  starve it into submission without heavy loss of life or property.

But the CCP want peaceful reunification, and they are building  the  people to people contacts to achieve it, despite DPP hindering such contacts.


Quote:

Warned what? That they are going to kill another 100 million people if they don't get their way with Taiwan?

Warned that if you dare attack the PLA in the Taiwan Straits, you will be a legitimate target wherever you are.

Times have changed since WW2 when Germany - too late to win - invented rockets.

Nowadays, anywhere on the globe is a (near instantaneous) target - a capacity  possessed by both the Pentagon and the PLA.

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 21^st, 2025 at 12:05pm:

freediver wrote on Nov 21st, 2025 at 11:46am: Can the CCP achieve peaceful RE-unification with Taiwan, without first turning China into a real democracy? Yes; if the US butts out,  the PLA can enforce an embargo on the island, cripple its economy and  starve it into submission without heavy loss of life or property.

;D

I have no doubt they would and could do that. I'm just surprised you describe that as peaceful, or expect it would result in a peaceful takeover.

How many millions of people would the CCP kill in this "peaceful" takeover?

If the people of Taiwan don't want it, what is the point?

Didn't you just finish whining and accusing Israel of doing exactly this with Palestine, violating all sorts of UN rules that you insist should govern nations?

Why should the US, Japan and other nations stand back and let the communist morons destroy another of their trading partners?

Quote:

But time is running out for them: in a decade, over a billion people on the mainland will have a per capita income as high as the islanders

In 2015, Taiwan's per capita GDP was 2.8 times that of China. In 2025, it is 2.5 times as high. Are you saying that in a decade, China might catch up to where Taiwan was a decade ago?

On top of that, China has a much larger and more severe income disparity than Taiwan.

freediver wrote on Nov 21^st, 2025 at 12:10pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 21st, 2025 at 12:05pm: freediver wrote on Nov 21st, 2025 at 11:46am: Can the CCP achieve peaceful RE-unification with Taiwan, without first turning China into a real democracy? Yes; if the US butts out,  the PLA can enforce an embargo on the island, cripple its economy and  starve it into submission without heavy loss of life or property. I have no doubt they would and could do that. I'm just surprised you describe that as peaceful, or expect it would result in a peaceful takeover.

You missed my edit: the CCP want peaceful reunification, and are building people to people contacts even in the face of blocking by the DPP.

Who are the "freedom or death" goons? 


Quote:

How many millions of people would the CCP kill in this "peaceful" takeover? If the people of Taiwan don't want it, what is the point?

See above, you missed my edit; the CCP has support on the island which they are nurturing.


Quote:

Didn't you just finish whining and accusing Israel of doing exactly this with Palestine, violating all sorts of UN rules that you insist should govern nations?

Taiwan was part of China when Israel was invented by the UN, do try to keep up. 


Quote:

Why should the US, Japan and other nations stand back and let the communist morons destroy another of their trading aprtners?

Nice try, but China is already the largest trading nation in the world, including Oz with its pragmatic approach to China:

Google AI

a majority of Australians do not support the US in a war in the Taiwan Strait; support is divided, with many preferring neutrality or non-military action, though there is also significant support for the alliance with the US. Recent polls show a near-even split or a preference for neutrality when it comes to military conflict, with recent data from November 2025 indicating 47% would back supporting the US while 50% would prefer neutrality.

Quote:

the CCP has support on the island which they are nurturing

And I pointed out already that this is just another example of you mimicking the CCP's capacity for self delusion. The party you described as being China-friendly is the one that wants Taiwan to take over China and turn it into a modern, wealthy democracy. It takes a particular devotion to lying to yourself to turn that around and decide the Taiwanese want the Chinese to starve them out, slaughter them, and turn the place into another Chinese shithole. Even worse, to convince yourself that the support will grow as China starves and kills them.

The CCP's propaganda simply does not work in nations that allow their people to think for themselves.

freediver wrote on Nov 21^st, 2025 at 12:26pm:

Quote: But time is running out for them: in a decade, over a billion people on the mainland will have a per capita income as high as the islanders In 2015, Taiwan's per capita GDP was 2.8 times that of China. In 2025, it is 2.5 times as high. Are you saying that in a decade, China might catch up to where Taiwan was a decade ago?

No, Im observing the growth rates in the mature 'high income' 1st world democracies slow to c. 2%. China will grow at double that rate over the next decade.


Quote:

On top of that, China has a much larger and more severe income disparity than Taiwan.

Yet unlike India, China has eradicated absolute poverty among its poorest 700 million (WB figures), and built the world's largest middle class (400 million people). 

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 21^st, 2025 at 12:43pm:

freediver wrote on Nov 21st, 2025 at 12:26pm: Quote: But time is running out for them: in a decade, over a billion people on the mainland will have a per capita income as high as the islanders In 2015, Taiwan's per capita GDP was 2.8 times that of China. In 2025, it is 2.5 times as high. Are you saying that in a decade, China might catch up to where Taiwan was a decade ago? No, Im observing the growth rates in the mature 'high income' 1st world democracies slow to c. 2%. China will grow at double that rate over the next decade. [quote]On top of that, China has a much larger and more severe income disparity than Taiwan.

Yet unlike India, China has eradicated absolute poverty among its poorest 700 million (WB figures), and built the world's largest middle class (400 million people). 
[/quote]

So when you said China would catch up to "the islanders" in a decade, you meant first world democracies, not Taiwan?

Did you mean China would "catch up" because they would be blockading and starving them out within a decade?

What does India have to do with it? Do you simply fall back on India every time you are proven to be lying about the CCP's economic performance?

freediver wrote on Nov 21^st, 2025 at 12:30pm:

Quote: the CCP has support on the island which they are nurturing And I pointed out already that this is just another example of you mimicking the CCP's capacity for self delusion.

No, I actually keep abreast of what's happenng in cross-straights relations; eg, some popular Taiwanese artists and singers  support reunification with the mainland. 


Quote:

The CCP's propaganda simply does not work in nations that allow their people to think for themselves.

Yet your "democratic freedoms" ideology is delusional.... 

Quote:

No, I actually skeep abreast of what's happenng in cross-straights relatioins

And I posted the link to actual serveys of the actual opinions of actual Tainwanese people, not a little pink's delusions about the CCP's grandeur.

If you "keep abreast" how is it that you decided that a party that wants to overthrow the CCP and set up a modern wealthy democracy in China is Taiwan's "China friendly" party, and that the votes they get are proof that Taiwanese people are in favour of the CCP starving them, slaughtering them, then imposing their economic mismanagement on them?

freediver wrote on Nov 21^st, 2025 at 12:48pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 21st, 2025 at 12:43pm: freediver wrote on Nov 21st, 2025 at 12:26pm: Quote: But time is running out for them: in a decade, over a billion people on the mainland will have a per capita income as high as the islanders In 2015, Taiwan's per capita GDP was 2.8 times that of China. In 2025, it is 2.5 times as high. Are you saying that in a decade, China might catch up to where Taiwan was a decade ago? No, Im observing the growth rates in the mature 'high income' 1st world democracies slow to c. 2%. China will grow at double that rate over the next decade. [quote]On top of that, China has a much larger and more severe income disparity than Taiwan. Yet unlike India, China has eradicated absolute poverty among its poorest 700 million (WB figures), and built the world's largest middle class (400 million people).

So when you said China would catch up to "the islanders" in a decade, you meant first world democracies, not Taiwan?[/quote] 

Of course, unless you think Taiwan will become the next Leichtenstein 


Quote:

Did you mean China would "catch up" because they would be blockading and starving them out within a decade?

No


Quote:

What does India have to do with it? Do you simply fall back on India every time you are proven to be lying about the CCP's economic performance?

Democratic inefficiency hinders ascent out of poverty for governments dealing with large populations,  do try to keep up. 

Why do you call the first world democracies "the islanders"?

Going by the USA. I wouldn't with that kind of Democracy on any nation.