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General Discussion >> Thinking Globally >> Is Israel more free and democratic?
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1749169338

Message started by freediver on Jun 6th, 2025 at 10:22am

Title: Is Israel more free and democratic?
Post by freediver on Jun 6th, 2025 at 10:22am
Woody, would you mind clarifying this? Are you claiming to have repeatedly disproven my claim that:

"Arab Muslims living in Israel today have more rights and freedoms, and more say in the governance of the country, than in any other middle eastern or north african country"

...despite being unable to cite a single middle eastern or north african country that grants it citizens more rights and more say in government?


waggawoody wrote on Jun 5th, 2025 at 11:00pm:

freediver wrote on Jun 5th, 2025 at 10:03am:

waggawoody wrote on Jun 4th, 2025 at 5:23pm:

freediver wrote on Jun 4th, 2025 at 6:27am:

waggawoody wrote on Jun 3rd, 2025 at 8:13pm:

freediver wrote on May 31st, 2025 at 3:16pm:
And yet Arab Muslims living in Israel today have more rights and freedoms, and more say in the governance of the country, than in any other middle eastern or north african country.

Even if that were true, and it isn't, as I've repeatedly shown, how would it justify the existence of dozens and dozens of racist laws which discriminate against Arab citizens of Israel, in all walks of life?


I must have missed that.


You mean you ignored it.


I probably ignored it because I could not make sense of your gibberish.

Would you mind reminding me, and all of us, which middle eastern or north african country you think grants it citizens more rights and freedoms, and more say in governance, than Israel?


I don't write gibberish - I state facts.

But everyone here knows it's facts you ignore when it comes to Israel.


Title: Re: Is Israel more free and democratic?
Post by Ai_Took_Our_Jobs on Jun 7th, 2025 at 11:14am
Not my fight. Google search's ai response

It's difficult to definitively say which Middle Eastern or North African country grants its citizens more rights than Israel without a precise definition of "rights." However, some countries in the region, like Tunisia and Iraq, are ranked as having higher democracy scores, suggesting broader freedoms for citizens compared to some other nations. The Economist Group's Democracy Index rates Israel as a "flawed democracy," while the U.S. Department of State (.gov) reports that Israel provides for full social and political equality regardless of religious affiliation.

It's important to note that the concept of rights can be complex and encompass various aspects, including political, social, and economic freedoms. While Israel has made strides in some areas, its history and ongoing conflicts with Palestine, particularly in the occupied territories, have led to criticisms regarding the rights of Palestinians. In contrast, countries like Tunisia have faced internal challenges and societal issues, while Iraq has been grappling with the impacts of conflict and its ongoing transition.

Therefore, while some nations might score higher in democracy indices, the extent to which citizens truly experience these rights and liberties can vary greatly depending on the specific context and the individual's circumstances.

Title: Re: Is Israel more free and democratic?
Post by wombatwoody on Jun 10th, 2025 at 7:01am

freediver wrote on Jun 6th, 2025 at 10:22am:
Woody, would you mind clarifying this? Are you claiming to have repeatedly disproven my claim that:

"Arab Muslims living in Israel today have more rights and freedoms, and more say in the governance of the country, than in any other middle eastern or north african country"


Been through all this before. Many times I pointed out the numerous laws which discriminate against Arab citizens of Israel, and that no similar racist laws exist in those other countries you mentioned.



Quote:
...despite being unable to cite a single middle eastern or north african country that grants it citizens more rights and more say in government?


I asked you to show what those rights etc were but you never did.





Title: Re: Is Israel more free and democratic?
Post by Frank on Jun 10th, 2025 at 10:04am

waggawoody wrote on Jun 10th, 2025 at 7:01am:

freediver wrote on Jun 6th, 2025 at 10:22am:
Woody, would you mind clarifying this? Are you claiming to have repeatedly disproven my claim that:

"Arab Muslims living in Israel today have more rights and freedoms, and more say in the governance of the country, than in any other middle eastern or north african country"


Been through all this before. Many times I pointed out the numerous laws which discriminate against Arab citizens of Israel, and that no similar racist laws exist in those other countries you mentioned.



Quote:
...despite being unable to cite a single middle eastern or north african country that grants it citizens more rights and more say in government?


I asked you to show what those rights etc were but you never did.

Why ARE there Muslims in Israel- with full citizenship and Israeli passports -  but no Jews in most Muslim Arab countries, then?


Title: Re: Is Israel more free and democratic?
Post by freediver on Jun 10th, 2025 at 3:50pm

waggawoody wrote on Jun 10th, 2025 at 7:01am:

freediver wrote on Jun 6th, 2025 at 10:22am:
Woody, would you mind clarifying this? Are you claiming to have repeatedly disproven my claim that:

"Arab Muslims living in Israel today have more rights and freedoms, and more say in the governance of the country, than in any other middle eastern or north african country"


Been through all this before. Many times I pointed out the numerous laws which discriminate against Arab citizens of Israel, and that no similar racist laws exist in those other countries you mentioned.


Quote:
...despite being unable to cite a single middle eastern or north african country that grants it citizens more rights and more say in government?


I asked you to show what those rights etc were but you never did.


Are you having difficulty understanding the question woody, or is your confusion deliberate?

You have not pointed out anything. You have sprouted mindless gibberish, then whined that no-one told you that you won the argument.

Which middle eastern or north african country do you think grants its citizens more rights and freedoms than Israel? Are you saying you have proven me wrong because I won't list them for you? Or do you not know what rights and freedoms, or a say in governance, means?

Title: Re: Is Israel more free and democratic?
Post by wombatwoody on Jun 12th, 2025 at 7:48am

Frank wrote on Jun 10th, 2025 at 10:04am:

waggawoody wrote on Jun 10th, 2025 at 7:01am:

freediver wrote on Jun 6th, 2025 at 10:22am:
Woody, would you mind clarifying this? Are you claiming to have repeatedly disproven my claim that:

"Arab Muslims living in Israel today have more rights and freedoms, and more say in the governance of the country, than in any other middle eastern or north african country"


Been through all this before. Many times I pointed out the numerous laws which discriminate against Arab citizens of Israel, and that no similar racist laws exist in those other countries you mentioned.



Quote:
...despite being unable to cite a single middle eastern or north african country that grants it citizens more rights and more say in government?


I asked you to show what those rights etc were but you never did.

Why ARE there Muslims in Israel- with full citizenship and Israeli passports -  but no Jews in most Muslim Arab countries, then?


Jews liked living in Arab countries so much that they had to be driven out by Zionist false flag ops:

In a key address before the Political Committee of the U.N. General Assembly on November 14, 1947 Heykal Pasha, an Egyptian delegate, stated,  A million Jews live in peace in Egypt [and other Muslim countries] and enjoy all rights of citizenship. They have no desire to emigrate to Palestine.

https://www.meforum.org/middle-east-quarterly/why-jews-fled-the-arab-countries

The Jewish virtual library confesses that Mizrahi and Sephardim Jews of Morocco enjoyed greater equality with Muslims. Many of them gained important positions in the government administration as officials and in courts of law as judges. The Jews had their own quarters in the main cities, where they had their own schools, their own synagogues, and even their own courts and judges. They comprised a large section of the middle class, who played large roles in the economy, trade, industry and educational system of the kingdom.

All this was changed with the invention of the Israeli state, especially after Zionist leaders had sent their agents to encourage and to bribe Moroccan Jews, among many other Arab Jews, to immigrate to occupied Palestine. Considering themselves Moroccan citizens of the Jewish faith, the Jews initially rejected Zionism. Yet some young Jews were seduced into enlisting into the Mossad. They were smuggled into Israel to receive military and terrorist training. They were sent back to Morocco to perpetrate terrorist attacks against both Jews and Arabs and to distribute hate inciting leaflets in order to incite conflict between the two groups. Three agents were arrested and allegedly died under torture.

Zionist crimes against Arab Jews, in particular, is an open secret very well known to Arabs as well as to Arab Jews. Zionist terror against Moroccan Jews is just one example of other terrorist attacks against well-established and peacefully coexisting Arab Jewish communities in all Arab countries; including Egypt, Lebanon, Syria and Iraq, in order to persuade them to immigrate to Israel. The case of transferring over 100 thousand Iraqi Jews from Iraq is the most well-documented open secret plotted together by the newly formed Israeli government under Ben-Gurion and Nuri as-Said; the British puppet ruler of Iraq in late 1950s. Mossad agents testified to having planted bombs within the Jewish community in order to spread hatred and fear to provoke Jewish flight from Iraq.

https://www.countercurrents.org/akleh111113.htm

And:

In his book, Ben Gurion's Scandals: How the Haganah & the Mossad Eliminated Jews, Giladi discusses the crimes committed by Zionists in their frenzy to import raw Jewish labor. Newly-vacated farmlands had to be plowed to provide food for the immigrants and the military ranks had to be filled with conscripts to defend the stolen lands. Mr. Giladi couldn't get his book published in Israel, and even in the U.S. he discovered he could do so only if he used his own money.

The Giladis, now U.S. citizens, live in New York City. By choice, they no longer hold Israeli citizenship. "I am Iraqi," he told us, "born in Iraq, my culture still Iraqi Arabic, my religion Jewish, my citizenship American."

https://www.inminds.com/jews-of-iraq.html

And:








RabbiKhadouri-Iraq.jpeg (172 KB | 18 )

Title: Re: Is Israel more free and democratic?
Post by wombatwoody on Jun 12th, 2025 at 7:52am

freediver wrote on Jun 10th, 2025 at 3:50pm:
You have not pointed out anything. You have sprouted mindless gibberish


Nonsense. I showed in the other thread the many racist laws which discriminate against Arab citizens of Israel. Or did you miss that too? And how can you possibly call it gibberish?


Quote:
Which middle eastern or north african country do you think grants its citizens more rights and freedoms than Israel?


That should ask, Which middle eastern or north african country do you think grants its minorities more rights and freedoms than Israel? Try again.

Here, I can help you with that one: In Jordan most of the 1.5 million Palestinians have citizenship and are well integrated socially and economically, while Syria hasn't yet granted them citizenship but still gives them the same economic and social rights enjoyed by Syrian citizens.

And what other nation in the region has anything like the racist laws in Israel such as The Jewish Nation-State Law, The Law of “Return”, The Admissions Committee Law, The Absentee Property Law and Land Acquisition Law, to name a few?

And I asked you to show what 'rights and freedoms' Arab citizens of Israel enjoy that those in other countries in the region do not. Still waiting.

All the while I've showed that they face institutionalized discrimination:


Quote:
Yes, non-Jewish citizens can vote, but the Israeli institutions, including its parliament and its land administration apparatus is heavily biased against them. Thus, almost all of the lands in Israel are owned and administered by a state and state-affiliated institutions which have a stated priority to be biased towards ‘Jewish settlement’. There is a myriad of laws which more and less directly discriminate against Palestinian citizens (see Adalah database with over 65 discriminatory laws).

And this discrimination goes beyond the citizenship per se – this is extremely important to understand. One of the first and most blatant examples of this discrimination is the Law of Return (1950). With its subsequent amendments, the law allows any Jew, their spouse, or even a non-Jew who is a 3rd generation descendant of a Jew, to ‘return’ to Israel, even if they never set foot there before, and receive automatic citizenship.

While those who have never set foot in the land are allowed and welcomed to ‘return’, those who have been expelled from it – the majority of the Palestinian people – are not allowed to return, and not afforded the citizenship that is automatically bestowed upon Jews.

Thus, the issue of ‘citizenship’ here presents itself in ‘absence’ – millions of Palestinians should have been allowed to be equal and free citizens – but they are denied that right. How are they denied it? By ethnic cleansing and by denial of their right to return. This is called ‘demographic engineering’ (see UN ESCWA report on Israeli Apartheid by R. Falk and V. Tilley, 2017). Having applied the engineering (Nakba, ethnic cleansing, etc.), the state can then maintain trappings of democracy (elections, etc.), without endangering the Jewish racial supremacy rule.

Thus, the citizenship afforded by Israel to its Palestinian subjects should be seen as an aberration – an alibi for the grave crime involving the denial of citizen rights to most Palestinians.

https://mondoweiss.net/2019/03/understanding-citizenship-nationality/



And I'm still waiting for an answer to this:  Even if your claim were true, how does it justify the existence of dozens and dozens of racist laws which discriminate against Arab citizens of Israel, in all walks of life?

When will you stop avoiding that?


Title: Re: Is Israel more free and democratic?
Post by wombatwoody on Jun 12th, 2025 at 7:59am

Quote:
Jews liked living in Arab countries so much that they had to be driven out by Zionist false flag ops


Zionist Agents Drove Mass Jewish Exodus From Arab Countries, According To Israeli Historian

In a recently published memoir, written by Israeli-British historian, Avi Shlaim, new evidence was published on a series of false-flag attacks that were carried out by Zionists who were working on behalf of the Mossad in 1950-51. The information presented adds to the evidence that counters one of Tel Aviv’s top propaganda points, which it uses to justify the murder and mass expulsion of Palestinian civilians in 1948.

Written in professor Avi Shlaim’s new memoir, entitled ‘Three Worlds: Memoirs of an Arab-Jew’, emerges new evidence that Zionist agents helped drive the mass exodus of some 125,000 Jews from Iraq. According to Shlaim’s sources, three out of five major bombing attacks against the Jewish community in Baghdad — where roughly a third of the population was Jewish — were carried out by a group of Zionists who were working on behalf of Israeli intelligence officer, Max Bineth. The Mossad agent, Max Bineth, operated out of Tehran in neighboring Iran and would later go on to help coordinate another failed series of planned false flag attacks in the Egyptian city of Cairo, which was aimed at causing tensions between Egypt and the West.

    Were Zionist agents responsible for a wave of bombings in the 1950s targeting Jewish neighbourhoods across the Arab world?

    British-Israeli historian Avi Shlaim says he’s finally found proof.

https://www.thelastamericanvagabond.com/zionist-agents-drove-mass-jewish-exodus-from-arab-countries-according-to-israeli-historian/

Title: Re: Is Israel more free and democratic?
Post by freediver on Jun 12th, 2025 at 5:51pm

waggawoody wrote on Jun 12th, 2025 at 7:52am:
Here, I can help you with that one: In Jordan most of the 1.5 million Palestinians have citizenship


Israel also grants it's Arab Muslim citizens citizenship. Try again.

Which middle eastern or north african country do you think grants its citizens more rights and freedoms than Israel grants to it's Arab Muslim citizens?

Let me know if you are still confused by the question.

Title: Re: Is Israel more free and democratic?
Post by Dnarever on Jun 12th, 2025 at 5:56pm

Quote:
Is Israel more free and democratic?


No Israel is a very troubled and corrupt pretend democracy. They tend to run on extremist near despots.

Nice people in general but the leadership has stunk for many decades.

Title: Re: Is Israel more free and democratic?
Post by freediver on Jun 12th, 2025 at 6:03pm

Dnarever wrote on Jun 12th, 2025 at 5:56pm:

Quote:
Is Israel more free and democratic?


No Israel is a very troubled and corrupt pretend democracy. They tend to run on extremist near despots.

Nice people in general but the leadership has stunk for many decades.


Which middle eastern or north african country do you think grants its citizens more rights and freedoms than Israel grants to it's Arab Muslim citizens?

Title: Re: Is Israel more free and democratic?
Post by wombatwoody on Jun 13th, 2025 at 8:26am

freediver wrote on Jun 12th, 2025 at 5:51pm:

waggawoody wrote on Jun 12th, 2025 at 7:52am:
Here, I can help you with that one: In Jordan most of the 1.5 million Palestinians have citizenship


Israel also grants it's Arab Muslim citizens citizenship.


You snipped the main part: 'and are well integrated socially and economically, while Syria hasn't yet granted them citizenship but still gives them the same economic and social rights enjoyed by Syrian citizens.'

well integrated socially and economically...the same economic and social rights...

Unlike Arab citizens of Israel who face discrimination in all areas.


Quote:
Which middle eastern or north african country do you think grants its citizens more rights and freedoms than Israel grants to it's Arab Muslim citizens?


Thought I made that clear. Well, it's clear to anyone who doesn't want to be argumentative and evasive.

Look above: 'Many times I pointed out the numerous laws which discriminate against Arab citizens of Israel, and that no similar racist laws exist in those other countries you mentioned.'

no similar racist laws exist in those other countries

To elaborate, 1) There's no institutionalized discrimination and apartheid in those countries like there is in Israel; and 2) Citizens of those countries are granted property rights, unlike in Israel:

"Palestinian citizens of Israel are WORSE OFF than second-class citizens = NO national rights and NO property rights." - Max Blumenthal

So your claim is bogus.

And what use is citizenship if they are denied basic rights?


To repeat:
I asked you to show what rights and freedoms Arab citizens of Israel enjoy that those in other countries in the region do not. Yet you still fail to answer.

To repeat:
And I'm still waiting for an answer to this:  Even if your (bogus) claim were true, how does it justify the existence of dozens and dozens of racist laws which discriminate against Arab citizens of Israel, in all walks of life?



Title: Re: Is Israel more free and democratic?
Post by freediver on Jun 13th, 2025 at 8:30am

Quote:
and are well integrated


LOL

Is that a human right, or a say in government?

Title: Re: Is Israel more free and democratic?
Post by wombatwoody on Jun 14th, 2025 at 7:07am

freediver wrote on Jun 13th, 2025 at 8:30am:

Quote:
and are well integrated


LOL

Is that a human right, or a say in government?



::)

Title: Re: Is Israel more free and democratic?
Post by freediver on Jun 14th, 2025 at 8:52am
Are you claiming that Jordan grants its citizens more rights and freedoms, and more say in governance, than Israel? Or just that it grants its citizens citizenship and 'encourages' minorities to integrate?

Title: Re: Is Israel more free and democratic?
Post by wombatwoody on Jun 15th, 2025 at 9:51pm
Your claim is bogus.

Title: Re: Is Israel more free and democratic?
Post by freediver on Jun 16th, 2025 at 9:46am
Which claim? You don't seem to have comprehended anything I said. And why do you think it is bogus?

Title: Re: Is Israel more free and democratic?
Post by Sir lastnail on Jun 16th, 2025 at 11:02am

freediver wrote on Jun 6th, 2025 at 10:22am:
Woody, would you mind clarifying this? Are you claiming to have repeatedly disproven my claim that:

"Arab Muslims living in Israel today have more rights and freedoms, and more say in the governance of the country, than in any other middle eastern or north african country"

...despite being unable to cite a single middle eastern or north african country that grants it citizens more rights and more say in government?


waggawoody wrote on Jun 5th, 2025 at 11:00pm:

freediver wrote on Jun 5th, 2025 at 10:03am:

waggawoody wrote on Jun 4th, 2025 at 5:23pm:

freediver wrote on Jun 4th, 2025 at 6:27am:

waggawoody wrote on Jun 3rd, 2025 at 8:13pm:

freediver wrote on May 31st, 2025 at 3:16pm:
And yet Arab Muslims living in Israel today have more rights and freedoms, and more say in the governance of the country, than in any other middle eastern or north african country.

Even if that were true, and it isn't, as I've repeatedly shown, how would it justify the existence of dozens and dozens of racist laws which discriminate against Arab citizens of Israel, in all walks of life?


I must have missed that.


You mean you ignored it.


I probably ignored it because I could not make sense of your gibberish.

Would you mind reminding me, and all of us, which middle eastern or north african country you think grants it citizens more rights and freedoms, and more say in governance, than Israel?


I don't write gibberish - I state facts.

But everyone here knows it's facts you ignore when it comes to Israel.


Israel is an ethno-supremacist apartheid state, and unless you are Jewish by birthright, you are treated as a second-rate citizen.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zesI26Xi0Fk



Title: Re: Is Israel more free and democratic?
Post by freediver on Jun 16th, 2025 at 11:04am
And yet Arab Muslims living in Israel today have more rights and freedoms, and more say in the governance of the country, than in any other middle eastern or north african country.

But they are mostly Jewish, which upsets a lot of people.

Title: Re: Is Israel more free and democratic?
Post by Jasin on Jun 16th, 2025 at 11:16am

Sir lastnail wrote on Jun 16th, 2025 at 11:02am:

freediver wrote on Jun 6th, 2025 at 10:22am:
Woody, would you mind clarifying this? Are you claiming to have repeatedly disproven my claim that:

"Arab Muslims living in Israel today have more rights and freedoms, and more say in the governance of the country, than in any other middle eastern or north african country"

...despite being unable to cite a single middle eastern or north african country that grants it citizens more rights and more say in government?


waggawoody wrote on Jun 5th, 2025 at 11:00pm:

freediver wrote on Jun 5th, 2025 at 10:03am:

waggawoody wrote on Jun 4th, 2025 at 5:23pm:

freediver wrote on Jun 4th, 2025 at 6:27am:

waggawoody wrote on Jun 3rd, 2025 at 8:13pm:

freediver wrote on May 31st, 2025 at 3:16pm:
And yet Arab Muslims living in Israel today have more rights and freedoms, and more say in the governance of the country, than in any other middle eastern or north african country.

Even if that were true, and it isn't, as I've repeatedly shown, how would it justify the existence of dozens and dozens of racist laws which discriminate against Arab citizens of Israel, in all walks of life?


I must have missed that.


You mean you ignored it.


I probably ignored it because I could not make sense of your gibberish.

Would you mind reminding me, and all of us, which middle eastern or north african country you think grants it citizens more rights and freedoms, and more say in governance, than Israel?


I don't write gibberish - I state facts.

But everyone here knows it's facts you ignore when it comes to Israel.


Israel is an ethno-supremacist apartheid state, and unless you are Jewish by birthright, you are treated as a second-rate citizen.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zesI26Xi0Fk

Just because you can.
Doesn't mean, you should.

Title: Re: Is Israel more free and democratic?
Post by Jasin on Jun 16th, 2025 at 11:22am

waggawoody wrote on Jun 15th, 2025 at 9:51pm:
Your claim is bogus.


What isn't bogus is your North Korean style of propaganda to promote the gutlessly poor act of Terrorism.

If you can't afford to wage war for all the right reasons.
Then don't wage war at all.

You obviously support the lowest form of war morality there is.
But worse, as Hamas uses no morality at all and it's civilians support that - to the death.

Are you a TERRORIST wombat?
If so? Do hand yourself in, balls n' all.

Title: Re: Is Israel more free and democratic?
Post by Gnads on Jun 16th, 2025 at 11:43am

waggawoody wrote on Jun 12th, 2025 at 7:48am:

Frank wrote on Jun 10th, 2025 at 10:04am:

waggawoody wrote on Jun 10th, 2025 at 7:01am:

freediver wrote on Jun 6th, 2025 at 10:22am:
Woody, would you mind clarifying this? Are you claiming to have repeatedly disproven my claim that:

"Arab Muslims living in Israel today have more rights and freedoms, and more say in the governance of the country, than in any other middle eastern or north african country"


Been through all this before. Many times I pointed out the numerous laws which discriminate against Arab citizens of Israel, and that no similar racist laws exist in those other countries you mentioned.



Quote:
...despite being unable to cite a single middle eastern or north african country that grants it citizens more rights and more say in government?


I asked you to show what those rights etc were but you never did.

Why ARE there Muslims in Israel- with full citizenship and Israeli passports -  but no Jews in most Muslim Arab countries, then?


Jews liked living in Arab countries so much that they had to be driven out by Zionist false flag ops:

In a key address before the Political Committee of the U.N. General Assembly on November 14, 1947 Heykal Pasha, an Egyptian delegate, stated,  A million Jews live in peace in Egypt [and other Muslim countries] and enjoy all rights of citizenship. They have no desire to emigrate to Palestine.

https://www.meforum.org/middle-east-quarterly/why-jews-fled-the-arab-countries

The Jewish virtual library confesses that Mizrahi and Sephardim Jews of Morocco enjoyed greater equality with Muslims. Many of them gained important positions in the government administration as officials and in courts of law as judges. The Jews had their own quarters in the main cities, where they had their own schools, their own synagogues, and even their own courts and judges. They comprised a large section of the middle class, who played large roles in the economy, trade, industry and educational system of the kingdom.

All this was changed with the invention of the Israeli state, especially after Zionist leaders had sent their agents to encourage and to bribe Moroccan Jews, among many other Arab Jews, to immigrate to occupied Palestine. Considering themselves Moroccan citizens of the Jewish faith, the Jews initially rejected Zionism. Yet some young Jews were seduced into enlisting into the Mossad. They were smuggled into Israel to receive military and terrorist training. They were sent back to Morocco to perpetrate terrorist attacks against both Jews and Arabs and to distribute hate inciting leaflets in order to incite conflict between the two groups. Three agents were arrested and allegedly died under torture.

Zionist crimes against Arab Jews, in particular, is an open secret very well known to Arabs as well as to Arab Jews. Zionist terror against Moroccan Jews is just one example of other terrorist attacks against well-established and peacefully coexisting Arab Jewish communities in all Arab countries; including Egypt, Lebanon, Syria and Iraq, in order to persuade them to immigrate to Israel. The case of transferring over 100 thousand Iraqi Jews from Iraq is the most well-documented open secret plotted together by the newly formed Israeli government under Ben-Gurion and Nuri as-Said; the British puppet ruler of Iraq in late 1950s. Mossad agents testified to having planted bombs within the Jewish community in order to spread hatred and fear to provoke Jewish flight from Iraq.

https://www.countercurrents.org/akleh111113.htm

And:

In his book, Ben Gurion's Scandals: How the Haganah & the Mossad Eliminated Jews, Giladi discusses the crimes committed by Zionists in their frenzy to import raw Jewish labor. Newly-vacated farmlands had to be plowed to provide food for the immigrants and the military ranks had to be filled with conscripts to defend the stolen lands. Mr. Giladi couldn't get his book published in Israel, and even in the U.S. he discovered he could do so only if he used his own money.

The Giladis, now U.S. citizens, live in New York City. By choice, they no longer hold Israeli citizenship. "I am Iraqi," he told us, "born in Iraq, my culture still Iraqi Arabic, my religion Jewish, my citizenship American."

https://www.inminds.com/jews-of-iraq.html

And:


You should have stopped after you typed that bollocks.

Because that just negated your whole response as horse shyte.

Title: Re: Is Israel more free and democratic?
Post by wombatwoody on Jun 17th, 2025 at 7:05am

freediver wrote on Jun 16th, 2025 at 9:46am:
Which claim? 


You know very well. Or are you pretending to be dense?


Quote:
And why do you think it is bogus?


Already explained above. 

And you've repeatedly failed to show what rights and freedoms Arab citizens of Israel enjoy that those in other countries in the region do not.

And even if they had more rights, would that excuse Israel's existence as a racist Jewish supremacist state?


Title: Re: Is Israel more free and democratic?
Post by wombatwoody on Jun 17th, 2025 at 7:08am

Gnads wrote on Jun 16th, 2025 at 11:43am:
You should have stopped after you typed that bollocks.

Because that just negated your whole response as horse shyte.


Bunkum.

Looks like you just skimmed thru all that without actually reading and trying to understand it.

And are you calling Naeim Giladi a liar?




I write this article
for the same reason I wrote my book:
to tell the American people,
and especially American Jews,
that Jews from Islamic lands did not emigrate
willingly to Israel; that, to force them to leave,
Jews killed Jews; and that,
to buy time to confiscate ever more Arab lands,
Jews on numerous occasions
rejected genuine peace initiatives
from their Arab neighbors.
I write about what the first prime minister of Israel called "cruel Zionism."
I write about it because I was part of it.

  -- Naeim Giladi



Besides, British-Israeli historian Avi Shlaim vindicates all the above - see reply 7.

Title: Re: Is Israel more free and democratic?
Post by freediver on Jun 17th, 2025 at 8:40am

waggawoody wrote on Jun 17th, 2025 at 7:05am:

freediver wrote on Jun 16th, 2025 at 9:46am:
Which claim? 


You know very well. Or are you pretending to be dense?


Quote:
And why do you think it is bogus?


Already explained above. 

And you've repeatedly failed to show what rights and freedoms Arab citizens of Israel enjoy that those in other countries in the region do not.

And even if they had more rights, would that excuse Israel's existence as a racist Jewish supremacist state?


I am giving you an opportunity to say what it is you are trying to say. Don't be shy. Why claim do you think is bogus, and why?

Title: Re: Is Israel more free and democratic?
Post by wombatwoody on Jun 17th, 2025 at 9:19pm
FD again refuses to give a straight answer.

Can anyone else show how a state with so many racist laws can be a democracy?


The Laws Against Non-Jews


Anyone who lives in Israel knows how deep and widespread these attitudes of hatred and cruelty towards all Gentiles are among the majority of Israeli Jews.

In addition to the general anti-Gentile laws, the Halakhah has special laws against Gentiles who live in the Land of Israel (Eretz Yisra'el) or, in some cases, merely pass through it. These laws are designed to promote Jewish supremacy in that country...

I shall now list a few of the special laws concerning Gentiles in the Land of Israel. Their connection with actual Zionist practice will be quite apparent.

The Halakhah forbids Jews to sell immovable property—fields and houses—in the Land of Israel to Gentiles. Leasing a house in the Land of Israel to a Gentile is permitted under two conditions. First, that the house shall not be used for habitation but for other purposes, such as storage. Second, that three or more adjoining houses shall not be so leased...

It is therefore clear that—exactly as the leaders and sympathizers of Gush Emunim say—the whole question to how the Palestinians ought to be treated is, according to the Halakhah, simply a question of Jewish power: if Jews have sufficient power, then it is their religious duty to expel the Palestinians.

All these laws are often quoted by Israeli rabbis and their zealous followers. For example, the law forbidding the lease of three adjoining houses to Gentiles was solemnly quoted by a rabbinical conference held in 1979 to discuss the Camp David treaties. The conference also declared that according to the Halakhah even the "autonomy" that Begin was ready to offer to the Palestinians is too liberal. Such pronouncements—which do in fact state correctly the position of the Halakhah—are rarely contested by the Zionist "left."

In addition to laws such as those mentioned so far, which are directed at all Gentiles in the Land of Israel, an even greater evil influence arises from special laws against the ancient Canaanites and other nations who lived in Palestine before its conquest by Joshua, as well as against the Amalekites. All those nations must be utterly exterminated, and the Talmud and Talmudic literature reiterate the genocidal biblical exhortations with even greater vehemence. Influential rabbis, who have a considerable following among Israeli army officers, identify the Palestinians (or even all Arabs) with those ancient nations, so that commands like "thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth" acquire a topical meaning. In fact, it is not uncommon for reserve soldiers called up to do a tour of duty in the Gaza Strip to be given an "educational lecture" in which they are told that the Palestinians of Gaza are "like the Amalekites." Biblical verses exhorting to genocide of the Midianites were solemnly quoted by an important Israeli rabbi in justification of the Qibbiya massacre, and this pronouncement has gained wide circulation in the Israeli army. There are many similar examples of bloodthirsty rabbinical pronouncements against the Palestinians, based on these laws.

It must be emphasized that the explanations quoted above do represent correctly the teaching of the Halakhah. The rabbis and, even worse, the apologetic "scholars of Judaism" know this very well and for this reason they do not try to argue against such views inside the Jewish community; and of course they never mention them outside it. Instead, they vilify any Jew who raises these matters within earshot of Gentiles, and they issue deceitful denials in which the art of equivocation reaches its summit. For example, they state, using general terms, the importance which Judaism attaches to mercy; but what they forget to point out is that according to the Halakhah "mercy" means mercy towards Jews.

Anyone who lives in Israel knows how deep and widespread these attitudes of hatred and cruelty towards all Gentiles are among the majority of Israeli Jews. Normally these attitudes are disguised from the outside world, but since the establishment of the State of Israel, the 1967 war and the rise of Begin, a significant minority of Jews, both in Israel and abroad, have gradually become more open about such matters. In recent years the inhuman precepts according to which servitude is the "natural" lot of Gentiles have been publicly quoted in Israel, even on TV, by Jewish farmers exploiting Arab labor, particularly child labor. Gush Emunim leaders have quoted religious precepts which enjoin Jews to oppress Gentiles, as a justification of the attempted assassination of Palestinian mayors and as divine authority for their own plan to expel all the Arabs from Palestine... virtually all Zionists—and in particular "left" Zionists—share the deep anti-Gentile attitudes which Orthodox Judaism keenly promotes.

  - -  Prof. Israel Shahak, Jewish History, Jewish Religion: The Weight of Three Thousand Years; Chapter 5: The Laws Against Non-Jews


Title: Re: Is Israel more free and democratic?
Post by Frank on Jun 17th, 2025 at 9:25pm

waggawoody wrote on Jun 17th, 2025 at 9:19pm:
FD again refuses to give a straight answer.

Can anyone else show how a state with so many racist laws can be a democracy?


The Laws Against Non-Jews


Anyone who lives in Israel knows how deep and widespread these attitudes of hatred and cruelty towards all Gentiles are among the majority of Israeli Jews.

In addition to the general anti-Gentile laws, the Halakhah has special laws against Gentiles who live in the Land of Israel (Eretz Yisra'el) or, in some cases, merely pass through it. These laws are designed to promote Jewish supremacy in that country...

I shall now list a few of the special laws concerning Gentiles in the Land of Israel. Their connection with actual Zionist practice will be quite apparent.

The Halakhah forbids Jews to sell immovable property—fields and houses—in the Land of Israel to Gentiles. Leasing a house in the Land of Israel to a Gentile is permitted under two conditions. First, that the house shall not be used for habitation but for other purposes, such as storage. Second, that three or more adjoining houses shall not be so leased...

It is therefore clear that—exactly as the leaders and sympathizers of Gush Emunim say—the whole question to how the Palestinians ought to be treated is, according to the Halakhah, simply a question of Jewish power: if Jews have sufficient power, then it is their religious duty to expel the Palestinians.

All these laws are often quoted by Israeli rabbis and their zealous followers. For example, the law forbidding the lease of three adjoining houses to Gentiles was solemnly quoted by a rabbinical conference held in 1979 to discuss the Camp David treaties. The conference also declared that according to the Halakhah even the "autonomy" that Begin was ready to offer to the Palestinians is too liberal. Such pronouncements—which do in fact state correctly the position of the Halakhah—are rarely contested by the Zionist "left."

In addition to laws such as those mentioned so far, which are directed at all Gentiles in the Land of Israel, an even greater evil influence arises from special laws against the ancient Canaanites and other nations who lived in Palestine before its conquest by Joshua, as well as against the Amalekites. All those nations must be utterly exterminated, and the Talmud and Talmudic literature reiterate the genocidal biblical exhortations with even greater vehemence. Influential rabbis, who have a considerable following among Israeli army officers, identify the Palestinians (or even all Arabs) with those ancient nations, so that commands like "thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth" acquire a topical meaning. In fact, it is not uncommon for reserve soldiers called up to do a tour of duty in the Gaza Strip to be given an "educational lecture" in which they are told that the Palestinians of Gaza are "like the Amalekites." Biblical verses exhorting to genocide of the Midianites were solemnly quoted by an important Israeli rabbi in justification of the Qibbiya massacre, and this pronouncement has gained wide circulation in the Israeli army. There are many similar examples of bloodthirsty rabbinical pronouncements against the Palestinians, based on these laws.

It must be emphasized that the explanations quoted above do represent correctly the teaching of the Halakhah. The rabbis and, even worse, the apologetic "scholars of Judaism" know this very well and for this reason they do not try to argue against such views inside the Jewish community; and of course they never mention them outside it. Instead, they vilify any Jew who raises these matters within earshot of Gentiles, and they issue deceitful denials in which the art of equivocation reaches its summit. For example, they state, using general terms, the importance which Judaism attaches to mercy; but what they forget to point out is that according to the Halakhah "mercy" means mercy towards Jews.

Anyone who lives in Israel knows how deep and widespread these attitudes of hatred and cruelty towards all Gentiles are among the majority of Israeli Jews. Normally these attitudes are disguised from the outside world, but since the establishment of the State of Israel, the 1967 war and the rise of Begin, a significant minority of Jews, both in Israel and abroad, have gradually become more open about such matters. In recent years the inhuman precepts according to which servitude is the "natural" lot of Gentiles have been publicly quoted in Israel, even on TV, by Jewish farmers exploiting Arab labor, particularly child labor. Gush Emunim leaders have quoted religious precepts which enjoin Jews to oppress Gentiles, as a justification of the attempted assassination of Palestinian mayors and as divine authority for their own plan to expel all the Arabs from Palestine... virtually all Zionists—and in particular "left" Zionists—share the deep anti-Gentile attitudes which Orthodox Judaism keenly promotes.

  - -  Prof. Israel Shahak, Jewish History, Jewish Religion: The Weight of Three Thousand Years; Chapter 5: The Laws Against Non-Jews

It's a Jewish state. Whatcha gonna do?  There are Islamic states, by the dozen.  One Jewish state (third of the size of Tasmania).

You don't kvetch about Islamic states. Why not?


Title: Re: Is Israel more free and democratic?
Post by wombatwoody on Jun 18th, 2025 at 6:09am

Frank wrote on Jun 17th, 2025 at 9:25pm:

waggawoody wrote on Jun 17th, 2025 at 9:19pm:
FD again refuses to give a straight answer.

Can anyone else show how a state with so many racist laws can be a democracy?


The Laws Against Non-Jews


Anyone who lives in Israel knows how deep and widespread these attitudes of hatred and cruelty towards all Gentiles are among the majority of Israeli Jews.

In addition to the general anti-Gentile laws, the Halakhah has special laws against Gentiles who live in the Land of Israel (Eretz Yisra'el) or, in some cases, merely pass through it. These laws are designed to promote Jewish supremacy in that country...

I shall now list a few of the special laws concerning Gentiles in the Land of Israel. Their connection with actual Zionist practice will be quite apparent.

The Halakhah forbids Jews to sell immovable property—fields and houses—in the Land of Israel to Gentiles. Leasing a house in the Land of Israel to a Gentile is permitted under two conditions. First, that the house shall not be used for habitation but for other purposes, such as storage. Second, that three or more adjoining houses shall not be so leased...

It is therefore clear that—exactly as the leaders and sympathizers of Gush Emunim say—the whole question to how the Palestinians ought to be treated is, according to the Halakhah, simply a question of Jewish power: if Jews have sufficient power, then it is their religious duty to expel the Palestinians.

All these laws are often quoted by Israeli rabbis and their zealous followers. For example, the law forbidding the lease of three adjoining houses to Gentiles was solemnly quoted by a rabbinical conference held in 1979 to discuss the Camp David treaties. The conference also declared that according to the Halakhah even the "autonomy" that Begin was ready to offer to the Palestinians is too liberal. Such pronouncements—which do in fact state correctly the position of the Halakhah—are rarely contested by the Zionist "left."

In addition to laws such as those mentioned so far, which are directed at all Gentiles in the Land of Israel, an even greater evil influence arises from special laws against the ancient Canaanites and other nations who lived in Palestine before its conquest by Joshua, as well as against the Amalekites. All those nations must be utterly exterminated, and the Talmud and Talmudic literature reiterate the genocidal biblical exhortations with even greater vehemence. Influential rabbis, who have a considerable following among Israeli army officers, identify the Palestinians (or even all Arabs) with those ancient nations, so that commands like "thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth" acquire a topical meaning. In fact, it is not uncommon for reserve soldiers called up to do a tour of duty in the Gaza Strip to be given an "educational lecture" in which they are told that the Palestinians of Gaza are "like the Amalekites." Biblical verses exhorting to genocide of the Midianites were solemnly quoted by an important Israeli rabbi in justification of the Qibbiya massacre, and this pronouncement has gained wide circulation in the Israeli army. There are many similar examples of bloodthirsty rabbinical pronouncements against the Palestinians, based on these laws.

It must be emphasized that the explanations quoted above do represent correctly the teaching of the Halakhah. The rabbis and, even worse, the apologetic "scholars of Judaism" know this very well and for this reason they do not try to argue against such views inside the Jewish community; and of course they never mention them outside it. Instead, they vilify any Jew who raises these matters within earshot of Gentiles, and they issue deceitful denials in which the art of equivocation reaches its summit. For example, they state, using general terms, the importance which Judaism attaches to mercy; but what they forget to point out is that according to the Halakhah "mercy" means mercy towards Jews.

Anyone who lives in Israel knows how deep and widespread these attitudes of hatred and cruelty towards all Gentiles are among the majority of Israeli Jews. Normally these attitudes are disguised from the outside world, but since the establishment of the State of Israel, the 1967 war and the rise of Begin, a significant minority of Jews, both in Israel and abroad, have gradually become more open about such matters. In recent years the inhuman precepts according to which servitude is the "natural" lot of Gentiles have been publicly quoted in Israel, even on TV, by Jewish farmers exploiting Arab labor, particularly child labor. Gush Emunim leaders have quoted religious precepts which enjoin Jews to oppress Gentiles, as a justification of the attempted assassination of Palestinian mayors and as divine authority for their own plan to expel all the Arabs from Palestine... virtually all Zionists—and in particular "left" Zionists—share the deep anti-Gentile attitudes which Orthodox Judaism keenly promotes.

  - -  Prof. Israel Shahak, Jewish History, Jewish Religion: The Weight of Three Thousand Years; Chapter 5: The Laws Against Non-Jews

It's a Jewish state. Whatcha gonna do?  There are Islamic states, by the dozen.  One Jewish state (third of the size of Tasmania).

You don't kvetch about Islamic states. Why not?


Would you call those Islamic states democracies?


Title: Re: Is Israel more free and democratic?
Post by Jasin on Jun 18th, 2025 at 8:07am
Over 100 Woke Activists for Free Palestine in Egypt recently demonstrating - were quickly 'disassembled' by Authorities and Civilians. Those that were not Egyptian, were immediately deported.

Egypt supports Israel and against Iran.

Title: Re: Is Israel more free and democratic?
Post by freediver on Jun 18th, 2025 at 8:35am

Quote:
FD again refuses to give a straight answer.


I am not sure how much straighter I can put it. Arab Muslims living in Israel today have more rights and freedoms, and more say in the governance of the country, than in any other middle eastern or north african country.

Do you disagree? And if so, which middle eastern or north african country do you think grants their citizens more rights and freedoms, and more say in governance?

Title: Re: Is Israel more free and democratic?
Post by Frank on Jun 18th, 2025 at 12:03pm

Quote:
Would you call those Islamic states democracies?


You cannot be Islamic and a democracy at the same time. Contradiction in terms.

Title: Re: Is Israel more free and democratic?
Post by philperth2010 on Jun 18th, 2025 at 12:15pm

Jasin wrote on Jun 18th, 2025 at 8:07am:
Over 100 Woke Activists for Free Palestine in Egypt recently demonstrating - were quickly 'disassembled' by Authorities and Civilians. Those that were not Egyptian, were immediately deported.

Egypt supports Israel and against Iran.


Bullshit....Can you support this claim ya dickhead???


Quote:
Egypt leads 21 nations in issuing anti-Israel statement

TEHRAN, Jun. 17 (MNA) – Egypt has led a group of 21 nations in issuing a joint statement that condemns recent Israeli military attacks against Iran.


https://en.mehrnews.com/news/233239/Egypt-leads-21-nations-in-issuing-anti-Israel-statement

::) ::) ::)


Title: Re: Is Israel more free and democratic?
Post by Dnarever on Jun 18th, 2025 at 12:52pm

freediver wrote on Jun 12th, 2025 at 6:03pm:

Dnarever wrote on Jun 12th, 2025 at 5:56pm:

Quote:
Is Israel more free and democratic?


No Israel is a very troubled and corrupt pretend democracy. They tend to run on extremist near despots.

Nice people in general but the leadership has stunk for many decades.


Which middle eastern or north african country do you think grants its citizens more rights and freedoms than Israel grants to it's Arab Muslim citizens?


Israel have run the largest outdoor prison populated with people charged with no crime for over 50 years. Not exactly rights or freedoms.

Title: Re: Is Israel more free and democratic?
Post by Leroy on Jun 18th, 2025 at 12:58pm

Dnarever wrote on Jun 18th, 2025 at 12:52pm:
Israel have run the largest outdoor prison populated with people charged with no crime for over 50 years. Not exactly rights or freedoms.


That must have been with the cooperation with Egypt, Jordan and Lebanon because every single Palestinian had the ability to go to any of these countries whenever they choose. The only thing these prisoners could not do was enter Israel.

Title: Re: Is Israel more free and democratic?
Post by Leroy on Jun 18th, 2025 at 1:05pm

Dnarever wrote on Jun 18th, 2025 at 12:52pm:
Israel have run the largest outdoor prison populated with people charged with no crime for over 50 years. Not exactly rights or freedoms.


Someone thinks the people of North Korea are free.

Title: Is Israel more free and democratic then nazi germa
Post by John Smith on Jun 18th, 2025 at 1:21pm
tough one!

Title: Re: Is Israel more free and democratic?
Post by wombatwoody on Jun 18th, 2025 at 10:50pm
For the umpteenth time, even if your claim were true, how would it justify the existence of dozens and dozens of racist laws which discriminate against Arab citizens of Israel, in all walks of life?


freediver wrote on Jun 18th, 2025 at 8:35am:

Quote:
FD again refuses to give a straight answer.


I am not sure how much straighter I can put it. Arab Muslims living in Israel today have more rights and freedoms, and more say in the governance of the country, than in any other middle eastern or north african country. 


Then why don't you say what those rights and freedoms etc are? I've asked you several times but you've always evaded the question.


Quote:
Do you disagree? And if so, which middle eastern or north african country do you think grants their citizens more rights and freedoms, and more say in governance? 


I answered that in reply 6. You evaded that one too.

And you also evaded what I said to you earlier about Jews in Iran, a minority group who have the ultimate right, i.e. to practice their religion unhindered:

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1749849214/7#7

And see here where a chief rabbi says, "Jews and Arabs have enjoyed the same rights and privileges in Iraq for 1,000 years."




Title: Re: Is Israel more free and democratic?
Post by wombatwoody on Jun 18th, 2025 at 10:53pm

Frank wrote on Jun 18th, 2025 at 12:03pm:

Quote:
Would you call those Islamic states democracies?


You cannot be Islamic and a democracy at the same time. Contradiction in terms.


So how can Israel be called the 'only democracy in the Mid East'?

In a democracy there are no laws which discriminate against minorities.

And that racism is not only just official policy, it's practiced by ordinary Israeli Jews as well:

‘Not for you’: Israeli shelters exclude Palestinians as bombs rain down




Frank wrote on Jun 17th, 2025 at 9:25pm:
It's a Jewish state.


You make it sound like that's justification for the genocide of innocent civilians.

Well, I suppose it is, if you're a fanatical Zionist.


Quote:
One Jewish state (third of the size of Tasmania).


What is it about you people, who, when shown something again and again, it's a case of in one ear and out the other?

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1671444180/6#6



Quote:
You don't kvetch about Islamic states. Why not?


Which Islamic state has such an egregious human rights record as Israel?

Which Islamic state has institutional discrimination and apartheid-like laws?

Which Islamic state constantly violates International Law with impunity?

Which Islamic state has kept over 2 million people in an open-air prison for decades and decades?


I could go on...







Title: Re: Is Israel more free and democratic?
Post by freediver on Jun 19th, 2025 at 9:42am

Quote:
For the umpteenth time, even if your claim were true


I notice you left out the "and I have repeatedly proven it is untrue" part. Is that the first time you have refrained from boasting about your debating success, being able to disprove a positive statement without providing a single counter-example?

Was it you who gave the example of Jordan? Do you think that Jordan is more free and democratic than Israel?


Quote:
how would it justify


I am not trying to justify anything. I am merely pointing out the racism and hypocrisy of those who whine endlessly about what the Jews do but remain silent about the far, far worse state of affairs in the region in which they built their new country.

Title: Re: Is Israel more free and democratic?
Post by Frank on Jun 19th, 2025 at 8:09pm

waggawoody wrote on Jun 18th, 2025 at 10:53pm:

Frank wrote on Jun 18th, 2025 at 12:03pm:

Quote:
Would you call those Islamic states democracies?


You cannot be Islamic and a democracy at the same time. Contradiction in terms.


So how can Israel be called the 'only democracy in the Mid East'?

In a democracy there are no laws which discriminate against minorities.

And that racism is not only just official policy, it's practiced by ordinary Israeli Jews as well:

‘Not for you’: Israeli shelters exclude Palestinians as bombs rain down




Frank wrote on Jun 17th, 2025 at 9:25pm:
It's a Jewish state.


You make it sound like that's justification for the genocide of innocent civilians.

Well, I suppose it is, if you're a fanatical Zionist.

[quote] One Jewish state (third of the size of Tasmania).


What is it about you people, who, when shown something again and again, it's a case of in one ear and out the other?

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1671444180/6#6



Quote:
You don't kvetch about Islamic states. Why not?


Which Islamic state has such an egregious human rights record as Israel?

Which Islamic state has institutional discrimination and apartheid-like laws?

Which Islamic state constantly violates International Law with impunity?

Which Islamic state has kept over 2 million people in an open-air prison for decades and decades?


I could go on...

[/quote]
And god knows, you will...


If you disagree with what Israel is doing, here's my question for you:

If you were the Israeli PM, how would you have responded to October 7 and Iran's nuclear ambitions?

Please explain.


Title: Re: Is Israel more free and democratic?
Post by freediver on Jun 19th, 2025 at 8:24pm

Quote:
If you were the Israeli PM, how would you have responded to October 7 and Iran's nuclear ambitions?


Don't be silly. Wombat wouldn't be a Jew.

Title: Re: Is Israel more free and democratic?
Post by wombatwoody on Jun 19th, 2025 at 8:45pm

freediver wrote on Jun 19th, 2025 at 9:42am:

Quote:
For the umpteenth time, even if your claim were true


I notice you left out the "and I have repeatedly proven it is untrue" part. Is that the first time you have refrained from boasting about your debating success, being able to disprove a positive statement without providing a single counter-example?


Like I said earlier, are you pretending to be dense?

In reply 2 I said, Many times I pointed out the numerous laws which discriminate against Arab citizens of Israel, and that no similar racist laws exist in those other countries you mentioned.

In reply 11 I said, To elaborate, 1) There's no institutionalized discrimination in those countries like there is in Israel; and 2) Citizens of those countries are granted property rights, unlike in Israel:

"Palestinian citizens of Israel are WORSE OFF than second-class citizens = NO national rights and NO property rights." - Max Blumenthal

Hey, Arab citizens of Israel are not only unable to buy land, they are unable to lease it. Where do we see minorities denied such rights in any of those countries you mentioned?

One of the basic principles of democracy is equality. We cannot speak of a democratic system unless all citizens are on an equal legal and moral footing. There can be no second-class citizens in a democracy. That's not the case in Israel.

So how can your claim possibly be true?

All that combined with the fact that you've repeatedly failed to show how and in what way "Arab Muslims living in Israel today have more rights and freedoms, and more say in the governance of the country, than in any other middle eastern or north african country", further demonstrates that your claim cannot be true.

How can it possibly be true?

How can it possibly be true when Arab citizens of Israel are denied basic human and civil rights, when we see no similar denial of minority rights in neighbouring countries?

You can tell a democracy by the way it treats the minorities living in it.

Israel falls far short of being a democracy.


Quote:
Was it you who gave the example of Jordan? Do you think that Jordan is more free and democratic than Israel?


Israel is not democratic at all, unless you're a Jew. Even then if a Jew wishes to be secular then he's in for a hard time:

http://warincontext.org/2009/12/13/lets-face-the-facts-israel-is-a-semi-theocracy/

Jews in Israel are not even allowed to have a civil marriage. If they really want one they need to leave the country.

While Jordan grants minorities the same economic and social rights as everyone else. Unlike in Israel.


Quote:
I am not trying to justify anything. I am merely pointing out the racism and hypocrisy of those who whine endlessly about what the Jews do


Now that's really rich, considering that Israel is the most racist country around.


Quote:
but remain silent about the far, far worse state of affairs in the region in which they built their new country.


Worse state of affairs?

Which neighbouring state has such an egregious human rights record as Israel?

Which neighbouring state has institutional discrimination and apartheid-like laws?

Which neighbouring state constantly violates International Law with impunity?

Which neighbouring state has kept over 2 million people in an open-air prison for decades and decades?

Which neighbouring state regards its minorities as sub-human, like Orthodox Judaism in Israel does?


Edit: On that last point... not just in Israel but Orthodox Judaism everywhere... but particularly in Israel. And I'm not making that up. The late rabbi/leader of Chabad-Lubavitch, the most prominent and influential sect in Orthodox Judaism, said as much. He called non-Jews a 'different species', a lower one of course.


Title: Re: Is Israel more free and democratic?
Post by wombatwoody on Jun 19th, 2025 at 8:46pm

Frank wrote on Jun 19th, 2025 at 8:09pm:

waggawoody wrote on Jun 18th, 2025 at 10:53pm:

Frank wrote on Jun 18th, 2025 at 12:03pm:

Quote:
Would you call those Islamic states democracies?


You cannot be Islamic and a democracy at the same time. Contradiction in terms.


So how can Israel be called the 'only democracy in the Mid East'?

In a democracy there are no laws which discriminate against minorities.

And that racism is not only just official policy, it's practiced by ordinary Israeli Jews as well:

‘Not for you’: Israeli shelters exclude Palestinians as bombs rain down




Frank wrote on Jun 17th, 2025 at 9:25pm:
It's a Jewish state.


You make it sound like that's justification for the genocide of innocent civilians.

Well, I suppose it is, if you're a fanatical Zionist.

[quote] One Jewish state (third of the size of Tasmania).


What is it about you people, who, when shown something again and again, it's a case of in one ear and out the other?

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1671444180/6#6


[quote]You don't kvetch about Islamic states. Why not?


Which Islamic state has such an egregious human rights record as Israel?

Which Islamic state has institutional discrimination and apartheid-like laws?

Which Islamic state constantly violates International Law with impunity?

Which Islamic state has kept over 2 million people in an open-air prison for decades and decades?


I could go on...

[/quote]
And good knows, you will...


If you disagree with what Israel is doing, here's my question for you:

If you were the Israeli PM, how would you have responded to October 7 and Iran's nuclear ambitions?

Please explain.

[/quote]

If I were PM of Israel - and what an absurd hypothetical - 7 Oct would never have happened:

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1698230100/24#24

Title: Re: Is Israel more free and democratic?
Post by freediver on Jun 20th, 2025 at 8:33am

waggawoody wrote on Jun 19th, 2025 at 8:45pm:

freediver wrote on Jun 19th, 2025 at 9:42am:

Quote:
For the umpteenth time, even if your claim were true


I notice you left out the "and I have repeatedly proven it is untrue" part. Is that the first time you have refrained from boasting about your debating success, being able to disprove a positive statement without providing a single counter-example?


Like I said earlier, are you pretending to be dense?

In reply 2 I said, Many times I pointed out the numerous laws which discriminate against Arab citizens of Israel, and that no similar racist laws exist in those other countries you mentioned.

In reply 11 I said, To elaborate, 1) There's no institutionalized discrimination in those countries like there is in Israel; and 2) Citizens of those countries are granted property rights, unlike in Israel:

"Palestinian citizens of Israel are WORSE OFF than second-class citizens = NO national rights and NO property rights." - Max Blumenthal

Hey, Arab citizens of Israel are not only unable to buy land, they are unable to lease it. Where do we see minorities denied such rights in any of those countries you mentioned?

One of the basic principles of democracy is equality. We cannot speak of a democratic system unless all citizens are on an equal legal and moral footing. There can be no second-class citizens in a democracy. That's not the case in Israel.

So how can your claim possibly be true?

All that combined with the fact that you've repeatedly failed to show how and in what way "Arab Muslims living in Israel today have more rights and freedoms, and more say in the governance of the country, than in any other middle eastern or north african country", further demonstrates that your claim cannot be true.

How can it possibly be true?

How can it possibly be true when Arab citizens of Israel are denied basic human and civil rights, when we see no similar denial of minority rights in neighbouring countries?

You can tell a democracy by the way it treats the minorities living in it.

Israel falls far short of being a democracy.

[quote]Was it you who gave the example of Jordan? Do you think that Jordan is more free and democratic than Israel?


Israel is not democratic at all, unless you're a Jew. Even then if a Jew wishes to be secular then he's in for a hard time:

http://warincontext.org/2009/12/13/lets-face-the-facts-israel-is-a-semi-theocracy/

Jews in Israel are not even allowed to have a civil marriage. If they really want one they need to leave the country.

While Jordan grants minorities the same economic and social rights as everyone else. Unlike in Israel.


Quote:
I am not trying to justify anything. I am merely pointing out the racism and hypocrisy of those who whine endlessly about what the Jews do


Now that's really rich, considering that Israel is the most racist country around.


Quote:
but remain silent about the far, far worse state of affairs in the region in which they built their new country.


Worse state of affairs?

Which neighbouring state has such an egregious human rights record as Israel?

Which neighbouring state has institutional discrimination and apartheid-like laws?

Which neighbouring state constantly violates International Law with impunity?

Which neighbouring state has kept over 2 million people in an open-air prison for decades and decades?

Which neighbouring state regards its minorities as sub-human, like Orthodox Judaism in Israel does?


Edit: On that last point... not just in Israel but Orthodox Judaism everywhere... but particularly in Israel. And I'm not making that up. The late rabbi/leader of Chabad-Lubavitch, the most prominent and influential sect in Orthodox Judaism, said as much. He called non-Jews a 'different species', a lower one of course.

[/quote]

You have put a lot of effort into evasion there wombat. But can you give a straight answer? Do you think Jordan grants its citizens more rights and freedoms, and more say in the governance of the country, than Israel?

Title: Re: Is Israel more free and democratic?
Post by wombatwoody on Jun 21st, 2025 at 10:42pm

freediver wrote on Jun 20th, 2025 at 8:33am:
You have put a lot of effort into evasion there wombat. But can you give a straight answer? Do you think Jordan grants its citizens more rights and freedoms, and more say in the governance of the country, than Israel?


Jordan doesn't believe its minorities are sub-human, and doesn't treat them as such. Unlike Israel.

"Anyone who lives in Israel knows how deep and widespread these attitudes of hatred and cruelty towards all Gentiles are among the majority of Israeli Jews... virtually all Zionists—and in particular "left" Zionists—share the deep anti-Gentile attitudes which Orthodox Judaism keenly promotes." - reply 25

And you're the one doing the evading. You've repeatedly failed to show what rights and freedoms Arab citizens of Israel enjoy that those in other countries in the region do not.

If you could show that you would've by now. Therefore you can't.

Title: Re: Is Israel more free and democratic?
Post by wombatwoody on Jun 22nd, 2025 at 6:13am

Jasin wrote on Jun 16th, 2025 at 11:22am:
Hamas uses no morality at all and it's civilians support that - to the death.


Avner Cohen, a former Israeli religious affairs official who worked in Gaza for more than two decades, told the Wall Street Journal in 2009 that “Hamas…is Israel’s creation.”

https://web.archive.org/web/20090926212507/http:/online.wsj.com/article/SB123275572295011847.html

Hamas is financed by Israel

https://news.sky.com/video/benjamin-netanyahu-allowed-millions-of-dollars-to-go-to-hamas-in-cash-israeli-ambassador-says-13228028

And you say terrorism?

Menachem Begin and Yitzhak Shamir - two of the most notorious terrorists the Middle East has ever seen.

Begin became the head of the Irgun Zvai Leumi, the most effective Jewish terrorist organization in the 1940s. From 1943 to 1948 the Irgun terrorists were led by this Menachem Begin, the man who became the Likud Party's first Prime Minister of Israel in 1977.

Yitzhak Shamir was the other prominent Jewish terrorist leader in the 1940s, heading the Lehi (the Stern Gang), which was responsible for the assassination of Walter Edward Guinness, later known as Lord Moyne, who served as British Secretary for the Colonies and Minister Resident in the Middle East, as well as the assassination of the UN's first Middle East mediator, Count Folke Bernadotte.

The brutality and butchery of Begin's Irgun and Shamir's Stern Gang served as 'inspiration' for these Israeli troops:

"On 12 August 1949, a platoon of soldiers in the Negev, based in Kibbutz Nirim not far from Beit Hanun, on the northern edge of today’s Gaza Strip, captured a twelve-year-old Palestinian girl and locked her up for the night in their military base near the kibbutz. For the next few days she became the platoon’s sex slave as the soldiers shaved her head, gang-raped her and in the end murdered her. Ben-Gurion lists this rape too in his diary but it was censored out by his editors. On 29 October 2003, the Israeli newspaper Ha’aretz publicised the story based on the testimonies of the rapists: twenty-two soldiers had taken part in the barbaric torture and execution of the girl. When they were then brought to trial, the severest punishment the court handed down was a prison term of two years for the soldier who had done the actual killing."

  --  Israeli historian Ilan Pappe, The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine; Chapter 9: Occupation and its Ugly Face


And what is it about you people, who, when shown something again and again, it becomes a case of in one ear and out the other?

https://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1714668349


Title: Re: Is Israel more free and democratic?
Post by freediver on Jun 22nd, 2025 at 2:21pm

waggawoody wrote on Jun 21st, 2025 at 10:42pm:

freediver wrote on Jun 20th, 2025 at 8:33am:
You have put a lot of effort into evasion there wombat. But can you give a straight answer? Do you think Jordan grants its citizens more rights and freedoms, and more say in the governance of the country, than Israel?


Jordan doesn't believe its minorities are sub-human, and doesn't treat them as such. Unlike Israel.

"Anyone who lives in Israel knows how deep and widespread these attitudes of hatred and cruelty towards all Gentiles are among the majority of Israeli Jews... virtually all Zionists—and in particular "left" Zionists—share the deep anti-Gentile attitudes which Orthodox Judaism keenly promotes." - reply 25

And you're the one doing the evading. You've repeatedly failed to show what rights and freedoms Arab citizens of Israel enjoy that those in other countries in the region do not.

If you could show that you would've by now. Therefore you can't.


It is sufficient for me to demonstrate that not a single person who disagree with the statement is prepared to give an example of a middle eastern or north african country that grants its citizens more rights and freedoms, and more say in the governance of the country, than Israel. In fact, as far as I can tell you are no longer prepared to say you disagree with the statement. So why are you demanding proof of something you agree with? And why can you not give a straight answer about what it is you are trying to say?

Do you think Jordan grants its citizens more rights and freedoms, and more say in the governance of the country, than Israel?

Title: Re: Is Israel more free and democratic?
Post by wombatwoody on Jun 24th, 2025 at 7:04am

freediver wrote on Jun 22nd, 2025 at 2:21pm:

waggawoody wrote on Jun 21st, 2025 at 10:42pm:

freediver wrote on Jun 20th, 2025 at 8:33am:
You have put a lot of effort into evasion there wombat. But can you give a straight answer? Do you think Jordan grants its citizens more rights and freedoms, and more say in the governance of the country, than Israel?


Jordan doesn't believe its minorities are sub-human, and doesn't treat them as such. Unlike Israel.

"Anyone who lives in Israel knows how deep and widespread these attitudes of hatred and cruelty towards all Gentiles are among the majority of Israeli Jews... virtually all Zionists—and in particular "left" Zionists—share the deep anti-Gentile attitudes which Orthodox Judaism keenly promotes." - reply 25

And you're the one doing the evading. You've repeatedly failed to show what rights and freedoms Arab citizens of Israel enjoy that those in other countries in the region do not.

If you could show that you would've by now. Therefore you can't.


It is sufficient for me to demonstrate that not a single person who disagree with the statement is prepared to give an example of a middle eastern or north african country that grants its citizens more rights and freedoms, and more say in the governance of the country, than Israel.


What a pathetic standard for establishing accuracy in a discussion.


Quote:
Do you think Jordan grants its citizens more rights and freedoms, and more say in the governance of the country, than Israel? 


As I said earlier, that should read, Do you think Jordan grants its minorities more rights and freedoms, and more say in the governance of the country, than Israel?

To which I would answer, in light of the above, it's gotta. Definitely.

And what is this more say in the governance of Israel you claim Arab citizens of Israel are granted?

Title: Re: Is Israel more free and democratic?
Post by freediver on Jun 24th, 2025 at 7:58am

Quote:
As I said earlier, that should read, Do you think Jordan grants its minorities more rights and freedoms, and more say in the governance of the country, than Israel?


I get tired of repeating the same question hundreds of times. Originally it was, Do you think Jordan grants its citizens more rights and freedoms, and more say in the governance of the country, than Israel grants its Arab Muslims? They count as a minority, though they do make up about 20% of Israel's population.


Quote:
To which I would answer, in light of the above, it's gotta. Definitely.


In light of what? The only example I recall you bringing up is the fact that it grants its citizens citizenship.


Quote:
And what is this more say in the governance of Israel you claim Arab citizens of Israel are granted?


Are you not familiar with the concept of democracy?

Title: Re: Is Israel more free and democratic?
Post by wombatwoody on Jun 25th, 2025 at 6:29am

freediver wrote on Jun 24th, 2025 at 7:58am:

Quote:
As I said earlier, that should read, Do you think Jordan grants its minorities more rights and freedoms, and more say in the governance of the country, than Israel?


I get tired of repeating the same question hundreds of times. Originally it was, Do you think Jordan grants its citizens more rights and freedoms, and more say in the governance of the country, than Israel grants its Arab Muslims? They count as a minority, though they do make up about 20% of Israel's population.


More evasion.

Your statement,

It is sufficient for me to demonstrate...

is a cop out.



Quote:
Are you not familiar with the concept of democracy?


Oh yes, very well. Unlike you.

You think a racist apartheid genocidal state can be one.



Title: Re: Is Israel more free and democratic?
Post by freediver on Jun 25th, 2025 at 8:13am

Quote:
Oh yes, very well. Unlike you.


So why do you need me to explain what having a say in the governance of the country means?

Title: Re: Is Israel more free and democratic?
Post by wombatwoody on Jun 26th, 2025 at 6:09pm

freediver wrote on Jun 25th, 2025 at 8:13am:

Quote:
Oh yes, very well. Unlike you.


So why do you need me to explain what having a say in the governance of the country means?


I wanted you to back up your claim of them having more say in it. But you can't.

Fact is their say amounts to nothing. That's why there is such a poor turnout in every election. They see it as a waste of time.

As Prof. Ilan Pappe says, What's the use in allowing them to vote if that vote doesn't change anything?

It's all just another Israeli deception:

https://mondoweiss.net/2019/03/understanding-citizenship-nationality/

Title: Re: Is Israel more free and democratic?
Post by freediver on Jun 26th, 2025 at 6:45pm

Quote:
I wanted you to back up your claim of them having more say in it. But you can't.


More say than in Jordan?

Title: Re: Is Israel more free and democratic?
Post by wombatwoody on Jun 27th, 2025 at 6:25am

freediver wrote on Jun 26th, 2025 at 6:45pm:

Quote:
I wanted you to back up your claim of them having more say in it. But you can't.


More say than in Jordan?


Already answered that.



Title: Re: Is Israel more free and democratic?
Post by freediver on Jun 27th, 2025 at 6:46am

waggawoody wrote on Jun 27th, 2025 at 6:25am:

freediver wrote on Jun 26th, 2025 at 6:45pm:

Quote:
I wanted you to back up your claim of them having more say in it. But you can't.


More say than in Jordan?


Already answered that.


You said the word "Jordan" a couple of times, but it was hard to tell what you were saying about it. Something about how wonderful it is that its citizens have citizenship. If you don't actually want me to answer the question, there is no need to let me know what the question is.

Title: Re: Is Israel more free and democratic?
Post by freediver on Aug 7th, 2025 at 1:50pm

freediver wrote on Aug 7th, 2025 at 12:28pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Aug 7th, 2025 at 12:16pm:

freediver wrote on Aug 7th, 2025 at 12:08pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Aug 7th, 2025 at 12:02pm:
David Ben-Gurion and his fellow Jewish Agency comrades intended no less than to seize the ancient lands of Judea, Samaria and Galilee and construct a modern state of Israel.

They never intended to deliver a just settlement for Arabs in the region.

Ben-Gurion was criticised by the Zionists of his day for not finishing the job in the south and the West Bank.


Arab Muslims living in Israel today have more rights and freedoms, and more say in the governance of the country, than in any other middle eastern or north african country.

Yes, they do. The price the Zionists had to pay for Israel being accepted into the community of nations - to recognise non-Jewish peoples within Israel's borders as Israelis.


;D

It couldn't possibly be that they actually value freedom and democracy, could it? Not if they are evil Jews who see everything as a transaction.



freediver wrote on Aug 7th, 2025 at 1:28pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Aug 7th, 2025 at 12:42pm:
Ben-Gurion and the Zionists were attempting something that had not been done since the mythical time of Moses, and their Overton Window was short - they didn't have 40 years to wander in the wilderness... To create a Jewish homeland within the ancient regions of Judea, Samaria and Galilee.

Equal rights for non-Jewish Israelis were another price they had to pay for recognition of Israeli statehood.

Jewish Israelis generally do not have much love for non-Jewish Israelis.


What about freedom and democracy Meister?


Meister you are inventing a terribly convoluted fantasy to try to paint Jews as purely transactional, as well as the international community at the time, as well as inventing an imaginary transaction, to try to explain away the flourishing of freedom and democracy for the first time under modern Israel. But you are also unwilling to give a straight answer to a simple question - could the fact that Israel is a modern liberal democracy simply reflect the fact that Israelis value freedom and democracy?

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