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General Discussion >> Thinking Globally >> Is Israel more free and democratic? http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1749169338 Message started by freediver on Jun 6th, 2025 at 10:22am |
Title: Is Israel more free and democratic? Post by freediver on Jun 6th, 2025 at 10:22am
Woody, would you mind clarifying this? Are you claiming to have repeatedly disproven my claim that:
"Arab Muslims living in Israel today have more rights and freedoms, and more say in the governance of the country, than in any other middle eastern or north african country" ...despite being unable to cite a single middle eastern or north african country that grants it citizens more rights and more say in government? wombatwoody wrote on Jun 5th, 2025 at 11:00pm:
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Title: Re: Is Israel more free and democratic? Post by Ai_Took_Our_Jobs on Jun 7th, 2025 at 11:14am
Not my fight. Google search's ai response
It's difficult to definitively say which Middle Eastern or North African country grants its citizens more rights than Israel without a precise definition of "rights." However, some countries in the region, like Tunisia and Iraq, are ranked as having higher democracy scores, suggesting broader freedoms for citizens compared to some other nations. The Economist Group's Democracy Index rates Israel as a "flawed democracy," while the U.S. Department of State (.gov) reports that Israel provides for full social and political equality regardless of religious affiliation. It's important to note that the concept of rights can be complex and encompass various aspects, including political, social, and economic freedoms. While Israel has made strides in some areas, its history and ongoing conflicts with Palestine, particularly in the occupied territories, have led to criticisms regarding the rights of Palestinians. In contrast, countries like Tunisia have faced internal challenges and societal issues, while Iraq has been grappling with the impacts of conflict and its ongoing transition. Therefore, while some nations might score higher in democracy indices, the extent to which citizens truly experience these rights and liberties can vary greatly depending on the specific context and the individual's circumstances. |
Title: Re: Is Israel more free and democratic? Post by wombatwoody on Jun 10th, 2025 at 7:01am freediver wrote on Jun 6th, 2025 at 10:22am:
Been through all this before. Many times I pointed out the numerous laws which discriminate against Arab citizens of Israel, and that no similar racist laws exist in those other countries you mentioned. Quote:
I asked you to show what those rights etc were but you never did. |
Title: Re: Is Israel more free and democratic? Post by Frank on Jun 10th, 2025 at 10:04am wombatwoody wrote on Jun 10th, 2025 at 7:01am:
Why ARE there Muslims in Israel- with full citizenship and Israeli passports - but no Jews in most Muslim Arab countries, then? |
Title: Re: Is Israel more free and democratic? Post by freediver on Jun 10th, 2025 at 3:50pm wombatwoody wrote on Jun 10th, 2025 at 7:01am:
Are you having difficulty understanding the question woody, or is your confusion deliberate? You have not pointed out anything. You have sprouted mindless gibberish, then whined that no-one told you that you won the argument. Which middle eastern or north african country do you think grants its citizens more rights and freedoms than Israel? Are you saying you have proven me wrong because I won't list them for you? Or do you not know what rights and freedoms, or a say in governance, means? |
Title: Re: Is Israel more free and democratic? Post by wombatwoody on Jun 12th, 2025 at 7:48am Frank wrote on Jun 10th, 2025 at 10:04am:
Jews liked living in Arab countries so much that they had to be driven out by Zionist false flag ops: In a key address before the Political Committee of the U.N. General Assembly on November 14, 1947 Heykal Pasha, an Egyptian delegate, stated, A million Jews live in peace in Egypt [and other Muslim countries] and enjoy all rights of citizenship. They have no desire to emigrate to Palestine. https://www.meforum.org/middle-east-quarterly/why-jews-fled-the-arab-countries The Jewish virtual library confesses that Mizrahi and Sephardim Jews of Morocco enjoyed greater equality with Muslims. Many of them gained important positions in the government administration as officials and in courts of law as judges. The Jews had their own quarters in the main cities, where they had their own schools, their own synagogues, and even their own courts and judges. They comprised a large section of the middle class, who played large roles in the economy, trade, industry and educational system of the kingdom. All this was changed with the invention of the Israeli state, especially after Zionist leaders had sent their agents to encourage and to bribe Moroccan Jews, among many other Arab Jews, to immigrate to occupied Palestine. Considering themselves Moroccan citizens of the Jewish faith, the Jews initially rejected Zionism. Yet some young Jews were seduced into enlisting into the Mossad. They were smuggled into Israel to receive military and terrorist training. They were sent back to Morocco to perpetrate terrorist attacks against both Jews and Arabs and to distribute hate inciting leaflets in order to incite conflict between the two groups. Three agents were arrested and allegedly died under torture. Zionist crimes against Arab Jews, in particular, is an open secret very well known to Arabs as well as to Arab Jews. Zionist terror against Moroccan Jews is just one example of other terrorist attacks against well-established and peacefully coexisting Arab Jewish communities in all Arab countries; including Egypt, Lebanon, Syria and Iraq, in order to persuade them to immigrate to Israel. The case of transferring over 100 thousand Iraqi Jews from Iraq is the most well-documented open secret plotted together by the newly formed Israeli government under Ben-Gurion and Nuri as-Said; the British puppet ruler of Iraq in late 1950s. Mossad agents testified to having planted bombs within the Jewish community in order to spread hatred and fear to provoke Jewish flight from Iraq. https://www.countercurrents.org/akleh111113.htm And: In his book, Ben Gurion's Scandals: How the Haganah & the Mossad Eliminated Jews, Giladi discusses the crimes committed by Zionists in their frenzy to import raw Jewish labor. Newly-vacated farmlands had to be plowed to provide food for the immigrants and the military ranks had to be filled with conscripts to defend the stolen lands. Mr. Giladi couldn't get his book published in Israel, and even in the U.S. he discovered he could do so only if he used his own money. The Giladis, now U.S. citizens, live in New York City. By choice, they no longer hold Israeli citizenship. "I am Iraqi," he told us, "born in Iraq, my culture still Iraqi Arabic, my religion Jewish, my citizenship American." https://www.inminds.com/jews-of-iraq.html And: ![]() |
Title: Re: Is Israel more free and democratic? Post by wombatwoody on Jun 12th, 2025 at 7:52am freediver wrote on Jun 10th, 2025 at 3:50pm:
Nonsense. I showed in the other thread the many racist laws which discriminate against Arab citizens of Israel. Or did you miss that too? And how can you possibly call it gibberish? Quote:
That should ask, Which middle eastern or north african country do you think grants its minorities more rights and freedoms than Israel? Try again. Here, I can help you with that one: In Jordan most of the 1.5 million Palestinians have citizenship and are well integrated socially and economically, while Syria hasn't yet granted them citizenship but still gives them the same economic and social rights enjoyed by Syrian citizens. And what other nation in the region has anything like the racist laws in Israel such as The Jewish Nation-State Law, The Law of “Return”, The Admissions Committee Law, The Absentee Property Law and Land Acquisition Law, to name a few? And I asked you to show what 'rights and freedoms' Arab citizens of Israel enjoy that those in other countries in the region do not. Still waiting. All the while I've showed that they face institutionalized discrimination: Quote:
And I'm still waiting for an answer to this: Even if your claim were true, how does it justify the existence of dozens and dozens of racist laws which discriminate against Arab citizens of Israel, in all walks of life? When will you stop avoiding that? |
Title: Re: Is Israel more free and democratic? Post by wombatwoody on Jun 12th, 2025 at 7:59am Quote:
Zionist Agents Drove Mass Jewish Exodus From Arab Countries, According To Israeli Historian In a recently published memoir, written by Israeli-British historian, Avi Shlaim, new evidence was published on a series of false-flag attacks that were carried out by Zionists who were working on behalf of the Mossad in 1950-51. The information presented adds to the evidence that counters one of Tel Aviv’s top propaganda points, which it uses to justify the murder and mass expulsion of Palestinian civilians in 1948. Written in professor Avi Shlaim’s new memoir, entitled ‘Three Worlds: Memoirs of an Arab-Jew’, emerges new evidence that Zionist agents helped drive the mass exodus of some 125,000 Jews from Iraq. According to Shlaim’s sources, three out of five major bombing attacks against the Jewish community in Baghdad — where roughly a third of the population was Jewish — were carried out by a group of Zionists who were working on behalf of Israeli intelligence officer, Max Bineth. The Mossad agent, Max Bineth, operated out of Tehran in neighboring Iran and would later go on to help coordinate another failed series of planned false flag attacks in the Egyptian city of Cairo, which was aimed at causing tensions between Egypt and the West. Were Zionist agents responsible for a wave of bombings in the 1950s targeting Jewish neighbourhoods across the Arab world? British-Israeli historian Avi Shlaim says he’s finally found proof. https://www.thelastamericanvagabond.com/zionist-agents-drove-mass-jewish-exodus-from-arab-countries-according-to-israeli-historian/ |
Title: Re: Is Israel more free and democratic? Post by freediver on Jun 12th, 2025 at 5:51pm wombatwoody wrote on Jun 12th, 2025 at 7:52am:
Israel also grants it's Arab Muslim citizens citizenship. Try again. Which middle eastern or north african country do you think grants its citizens more rights and freedoms than Israel grants to it's Arab Muslim citizens? Let me know if you are still confused by the question. |
Title: Re: Is Israel more free and democratic? Post by Dnarever on Jun 12th, 2025 at 5:56pm Quote:
No Israel is a very troubled and corrupt pretend democracy. They tend to run on extremist near despots. Nice people in general but the leadership has stunk for many decades. |
Title: Re: Is Israel more free and democratic? Post by freediver on Jun 12th, 2025 at 6:03pm Dnarever wrote on Jun 12th, 2025 at 5:56pm:
Which middle eastern or north african country do you think grants its citizens more rights and freedoms than Israel grants to it's Arab Muslim citizens? |
Title: Re: Is Israel more free and democratic? Post by wombatwoody on Jun 13th, 2025 at 8:26am freediver wrote on Jun 12th, 2025 at 5:51pm:
You snipped the main part: 'and are well integrated socially and economically, while Syria hasn't yet granted them citizenship but still gives them the same economic and social rights enjoyed by Syrian citizens.' well integrated socially and economically...the same economic and social rights... Unlike Arab citizens of Israel who face discrimination in all areas. Quote:
Thought I made that clear. Well, it's clear to anyone who doesn't want to be argumentative and evasive. Look above: 'Many times I pointed out the numerous laws which discriminate against Arab citizens of Israel, and that no similar racist laws exist in those other countries you mentioned.' no similar racist laws exist in those other countries To elaborate, 1) There's no institutionalized discrimination and apartheid in those countries like there is in Israel; and 2) Citizens of those countries are granted property rights, unlike in Israel: "Palestinian citizens of Israel are WORSE OFF than second-class citizens = NO national rights and NO property rights." - Max Blumenthal So your claim is bogus. And what use is citizenship if they are denied basic rights? To repeat: I asked you to show what rights and freedoms Arab citizens of Israel enjoy that those in other countries in the region do not. Yet you still fail to answer. To repeat: And I'm still waiting for an answer to this: Even if your (bogus) claim were true, how does it justify the existence of dozens and dozens of racist laws which discriminate against Arab citizens of Israel, in all walks of life? |
Title: Re: Is Israel more free and democratic? Post by freediver on Jun 13th, 2025 at 8:30am Quote:
LOL Is that a human right, or a say in government? |
Title: Re: Is Israel more free and democratic? Post by wombatwoody on Jun 14th, 2025 at 7:07am freediver wrote on Jun 13th, 2025 at 8:30am:
::) |
Title: Re: Is Israel more free and democratic? Post by freediver on Jun 14th, 2025 at 8:52am
Are you claiming that Jordan grants its citizens more rights and freedoms, and more say in governance, than Israel? Or just that it grants its citizens citizenship and 'encourages' minorities to integrate?
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Title: Re: Is Israel more free and democratic? Post by wombatwoody on Jun 15th, 2025 at 9:51pm
Your claim is bogus.
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Title: Re: Is Israel more free and democratic? Post by freediver on Jun 16th, 2025 at 9:46am
Which claim? You don't seem to have comprehended anything I said. And why do you think it is bogus?
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Title: Re: Is Israel more free and democratic? Post by Sir lastnail on Jun 16th, 2025 at 11:02am freediver wrote on Jun 6th, 2025 at 10:22am:
Israel is an ethno-supremacist apartheid state, and unless you are Jewish by birthright, you are treated as a second-rate citizen. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zesI26Xi0Fk |
Title: Re: Is Israel more free and democratic? Post by freediver on Jun 16th, 2025 at 11:04am
And yet Arab Muslims living in Israel today have more rights and freedoms, and more say in the governance of the country, than in any other middle eastern or north african country.
But they are mostly Jewish, which upsets a lot of people. |
Title: Re: Is Israel more free and democratic? Post by Jasin on Jun 16th, 2025 at 11:16am Sir lastnail wrote on Jun 16th, 2025 at 11:02am:
Just because you can. Doesn't mean, you should. |
Title: Re: Is Israel more free and democratic? Post by Jasin on Jun 16th, 2025 at 11:22am wombatwoody wrote on Jun 15th, 2025 at 9:51pm:
What isn't bogus is your North Korean style of propaganda to promote the gutlessly poor act of Terrorism. If you can't afford to wage war for all the right reasons. Then don't wage war at all. You obviously support the lowest form of war morality there is. But worse, as Hamas uses no morality at all and it's civilians support that - to the death. Are you a TERRORIST wombat? If so? Do hand yourself in, balls n' all. |
Title: Re: Is Israel more free and democratic? Post by Gnads on Jun 16th, 2025 at 11:43am wombatwoody wrote on Jun 12th, 2025 at 7:48am:
You should have stopped after you typed that bollocks. Because that just negated your whole response as horse shyte. |
Title: Re: Is Israel more free and democratic? Post by wombatwoody on Jun 17th, 2025 at 7:05am freediver wrote on Jun 16th, 2025 at 9:46am:
You know very well. Or are you pretending to be dense? Quote:
Already explained above. And you've repeatedly failed to show what rights and freedoms Arab citizens of Israel enjoy that those in other countries in the region do not. And even if they had more rights, would that excuse Israel's existence as a racist Jewish supremacist state? |
Title: Re: Is Israel more free and democratic? Post by wombatwoody on Jun 17th, 2025 at 7:08am Gnads wrote on Jun 16th, 2025 at 11:43am:
Bunkum. Looks like you just skimmed thru all that without actually reading and trying to understand it. And are you calling Naeim Giladi a liar? for the same reason I wrote my book: to tell the American people, and especially American Jews, that Jews from Islamic lands did not emigrate willingly to Israel; that, to force them to leave, Jews killed Jews; and that, to buy time to confiscate ever more Arab lands, Jews on numerous occasions rejected genuine peace initiatives from their Arab neighbors. I write about what the first prime minister of Israel called "cruel Zionism." I write about it because I was part of it. -- Naeim Giladi Besides, British-Israeli historian Avi Shlaim vindicates all the above - see reply 7. |
Title: Re: Is Israel more free and democratic? Post by freediver on Jun 17th, 2025 at 8:40am wombatwoody wrote on Jun 17th, 2025 at 7:05am:
I am giving you an opportunity to say what it is you are trying to say. Don't be shy. Why claim do you think is bogus, and why? |
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