I am always interested in constructive criticsm of ideas. Like the dangers of fire in batteries. They are dangerous. What I don't understand is the hostility that is often passed off as criticsm of renwable energy projects. Such poorly concealed anger implies fear as anger usually does.

This is an interesting examination of the potential of Pumped Hydro:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-cOgrBIAuc

Yes—the sea for one provides an unfailing source of water for pumped storage.

It works OK. Heated salt does too. Lake Eyre has 400 million tons of salt, sunshine and welders building subs.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_energy_storage

The problem with pumped hydro is you need two dams (at least). Therefore you have to buy land that is suitable for two dams, one above the other in height, It is the fall that provides the potential. Unless the government of the day claims eminent domain.

As for salt solar they have tried it. But salt is very corrosive. The Ivanpah solar salt has never lived up to its potential.

lee wrote on Aug 2^nd, 2023 at 1:02pm:

The problem with pumped hydro is you need two dams (at least). Therefore you have to buy land that is suitable for two dams, one above the other in height, It is the fall that provides the potential. Unless the government of the day claims eminent domain. As for salt solar they have tried it. But salt is very corrosive. The Ivanpah solar salt has never lived up to its potential.

Pumped hydro is usually somewhere where there is already one dam, and the second one is up in the hills above it. So it is often already national park or some kind of crown land, or dirt cheap. They don't put these things on the flat grazing land or downtown. The second dam does not need any kind of catchment at all, so it opens up all sorts of possible sites that would not be suitable for a water storage dam.

Also, if an existing hydro facility with a single dam get's it's use changed so it is used intermittently, it achieves the same thing (actually, something much better - intermittent, on demand, large scale power source, rather than just a battery). A lot of them don't have enough enough storage for full time operation anyway.

freediver wrote on Aug 2^nd, 2023 at 3:50pm:

So it is often already national park or some kind of crown land, or dirt cheap.

So flood the crown land? ::)

It is actually like a battery without the chemicals. A loss making alternative similar to a battery. In a prolonged renewables deficit there may not be enough electricity to pump uphill.

lee wrote on Aug 2^nd, 2023 at 1:02pm:

As for salt solar they have tried it. But salt is very corrosive. The Ivanpah solar salt has never lived up to its potential.

'By 2017, due to improvements, the [Ivanpah] plant was meeting the contract output requirements'.
This continues from 2022.

chimera wrote on Aug 2^nd, 2023 at 5:19pm:

'By 2017, due to improvements, the [Ivanpah] plant was meeting the contract output requirements'.

"In its seventh year (2020), the annual production was 91.1% of its advertised value. "
MW
940,000 MWh

Sun total 815,817MWh for 2020 so for 2020 86%, so 5% was gas because they need to heat the salt in the morning.


But if we have a look at reality - A 392MW generator. If we divide the MWh by the hours in a year we see how it really went. 24*365 = 8760. So 815817/8760 = 93MW out of 392MW.

It might have met contract but it certainly wasn't close to capacity. ::)

https://moonshinestills.com/products/15-gallon-electric-moonshine-liquor-still-complete

Feel the power of organic liquor at 23% MW alcohol, full moon or new moon. It's a gas, the full bottle and worth its salt.

So you lost again. Ho-hum.

lee wrote on Aug 2^nd, 2023 at 5:49pm:

they need to heat the salt in the morning.

Now why was that, eh?

lee wrote on Aug 2^nd, 2023 at 4:06pm:

freediver wrote on Aug 2nd, 2023 at 3:50pm: So it is often already national park or some kind of crown land, or dirt cheap. So flood the crown land? ::)

Yeah. You got a problem with that too?

What are you going to do next, complain that the "problem" with solar panels is that they require solar panels?


Quote:

It is actually like a battery without the chemicals. A loss making alternative similar to a battery. In a prolonged renewables deficit there may not be enough electricity to pump uphill.

Pumped hydro has been a mainstream, financially viable option for decades.

Hi freediver,
Laxettes provides effective treatment of constipation in 8hrs and is great for those wanting overnight relief action & to restore regularity.

freediver wrote on Aug 2^nd, 2023 at 6:42pm:

What are you going to do next, complain that the "problem" with solar panels is that they require solar panels?

Solar panels require cleaning.  ::)

Let us know when the Greenies support flooding crown land. ::)

Yes the bulldust on my solar panels affects the looney electricity at night.

Dust reduces the effectiveness by up to 30% in one month. For roof top solar you need distilled water so they don't leave contaminants. An MIT study says they have a new electrostatic repulsion. But they have not given costs.


But it may not be a cure-all -

"We performed experiments at varying humidities from 5 percent to 95 percent,” Panat says. “As long as the ambient humidity is greater than 30 percent, you can remove almost all of the particles from the surface, but as humidity decreases, it becomes harder.”

https://news.mit.edu/2022/solar-panels-dust-magnets-0311

Deserts are generally less than 5% humidity.

The lunar surface is covered by a layer of unconsolidated debris called the lunar regolith. The thickness of the regolith varies from about 5 m on mare surfaces to about 10 m on highland surfaces. Lumps smaller than 1 cm are called "lunar soil".

Quote:

The Andasol solar power station is a 150-megawatt (MW) concentrated solar power station and Europe's first commercial plant to use parabolic troughs. It is located near Guadix in Andalusia, Spain, and its name is a portmanteau of Andalusia and Sol (Sun in Spanish). The Andasol plant uses tanks of molten salt as thermal energy storage to continue generating electricity, irrespective of whether the sun is shining or not.

[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andasol_Solar_Power_Station]Source[/url]

Solar seems to work with molten salt without any trouble.  Ivanpath seems to be simply too large.

Just guessing, but wind power at night could produce heat to add to the salt. (carbon fibre or halogen radiant heaters?)

Gee I wonder why they didn't think of that. ;D ;D ;D ;D

Subsidies, subsidies, subsidies.


Spain faces €8 billion in renewable legal claims over past solar boom

Spain is investing in solar energy but still faces billions of euros worth of legal claims over previous energy investments.

When work started on Andasol in 2008, it was the largest solar energy plant in the world and its black panels stretched over enough land to cover 70 football pitches in the south of Spain near Granada.

Fourteen years later, the 51-hectare plant which produces a total of 495 GW-h of power per year, is embroiled in a multi-million-euro international legal battle between the Spanish government and a series of investors.

But this is just one of 51 claims totalling €8 billion that Spain’s left-wing coalition government is fighting against.
Why is Spain facing legal claims?
In 2007, Spain implemented several regulatory measures with the purpose of stimulating investment in the burgeoning renewable energy sector.

Initially, the system was a huge success, attracting interest from domestic investors and international companies.

However, after the boom, came the bust.

After the 2008 financial crisis, Spain was no longer able to guarantee the initial incentives and between 2012-2014, the government retrospectively removed them, prompting legal claims by the investors.

One of these claims started in 2013, when Infrastructure Services Luxembourg S.A.R.L and Energia Termosolar B.V, filed an arbitration claim against Spain with the International Centre for Settlement Investment Dispute (ICSID), alleging it breached its obligations under the Energy Charter Treaty because it removed incentives.

The companies claimed €196 million in damages. Spain denied the claim. Another investor involved in the same plant has also claimed damages.

Six years later, the tribunal ruled in favour of the companies and awarded €101m.

Spain has filed an application to annul the award, saying it would be construed as state aid.

Lawyers for the investors said they will pursue Spanish investments around the world to ensure payment.
https://www.euronews.com/my-europe/2022/12/27/spain-faces-8-billion-in-renewable-legal-claims-over-past-solar-boom

How much does a conventional coal, gas or hydro power station generate?
Answer: https://openinframap.org/stats/area/Australia/plants

Brian Ross wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2023 at 2:10pm:

Quote: The Andasol solar power station is a 150-megawatt (MW) concentrated solar power station and Europe's first commercial plant to use parabolic troughs. It is located near Guadix in Andalusia, Spain, and its name is a portmanteau of Andalusia and Sol (Sun in Spanish). The Andasol plant uses tanks of molten salt as thermal energy storage to continue generating electricity, irrespective of whether the sun is shining or not.

1500 acres (600Ha) to produce 56MW.

lee wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2023 at 3:02pm:

Gee I wonder why they didn't think of that.

It's because of the lunar electricity load and supernova xray gamma power surge blowing a fuse.

lee wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2023 at 3:11pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Aug 3rd, 2023 at 2:10pm: Quote: The Andasol solar power station is a 150-megawatt (MW) concentrated solar power station and Europe's first commercial plant to use parabolic troughs. It is located near Guadix in Andalusia, Spain, and its name is a portmanteau of Andalusia and Sol (Sun in Spanish). The Andasol plant uses tanks of molten salt as thermal energy storage to continue generating electricity, irrespective of whether the sun is shining or not. 1500 acres (600Ha) to produce 56MW.

Nothing comes for free... Tsk, tsk, tsk...  ::) ::)

Did anyone actually watch the video?