Renewable energy projects fast-tracked   :)


New Daily
Oct 19 2022

Prime Minister Anthony Albanese has labelled a multi-billion renewable energy initiative as a “nation-building project”, promising it would help to lower power prices.   :)

The government announced $1.5 billion would go towards Marinus Link, a power project linking Tasmania and Victoria, as well as other renewable initiatives such as offshore wind.

Funding for the Marinus Link will include money from the federal, Victorian and Tasmanian governments, with the prime minister saying it will lead to 1400 construction jobs as well as 1120 other jobs associated with the project.

Prime Minister Albanese said the projects would be the biggest energy investment since the Snowy Hydro scheme was unveiled.

“(It’s) a good idea which has been through all of the business cases (and) will now become a reality,” he told ABC Radio on Wednesday.

“It’s a very exciting announcement for Tasmania, but indeed it’s a nation-building project as well.”

Marinus Link is expected to cost $3.8 billion and the prime minister said any budget blowouts were unlikely.

“This project has been studied to death,” Prime Minister Albanese said.

“($3.8 billion) is the estimated cost, but this is an investment, it’s important that this project will be owned by the three governments of the Commonwealth, of Tasmania and Victoria – they should remain an asset.”

The governments are expected to contribute equally to the project, making up 20 per cent of the equity investment.

The remainder of the funding will come from a concessional loan through the Clean Energy Finance Corporation.

Government funding has also been secured for the Victoria-New South Wales interconnector project, which will get a $750 million concessional loan to make sure it is completed by 2028.

State and federal regulatory processes will also be coordinated to help get the offshore wind industry off the ground faster in Victoria.

Energy Minister Chris Bowen said increased action on renewables through large projects such as Marinus Link was essential.

“We have 86 months to 2030 to reduce our emissions … we are dealing with the implications of having four gigawatts of power leave our system in the last decade and only have one gigawatt come in,” Minister Bowen told ABC Radio on Wednesday.

“We’ve got to fix that, working in partnership with the states and territories and the private sector, and that’s exactly what we’re doing.”

Minister Bowen said the project, in planning for six years, would also allow for a boost to renewable energy in the jurisdictions.

“It means that Tasmania, which is currently 100 per cent renewable, will now have the opportunity to get to 200 per cent renewables,” he said.

“This is the equivalent of 140 million tonnes of CO2 coming out of the atmosphere by 2050, or … taking a million cars off the road.”

Quote:

Research from Rystad Energy reveals that 35GW of solar manufacturing and more than 2000 gigawatt hours of battery cell manufacturing capacity in the EU could be mothballed unless power prices return to normal. The energy intensive nature of these manufacturing processes is leading some operators to temporarily close or abandon production facilities as the cost of doing business escalates. Rystad stated that unless prices turn around soon, Europe’s plans to cut dependence on imported fossil fuels by boosting installed renewable generation capacity and electric vehicle (EV) usage could be derailed. Although Europe’s solar manufacturing capacity is relatively modest on a global scale – making up only 2% of total capacity – any shutdowns or abandonment of projects would have significant long-term negative consequences. The EU has targeted 20GW of production capacity by 2025, and although 35GW of projects is currently planned, many have not secured funding, increasing the risk that these projects will fall through if high power prices continue. Battery cell manufacturing – crucial in the EV and battery storage supply chain – is even more energy intensive than solar manufacturing, and Europe is a major global player. The EU currently boasts about 550GWh of capacity, representing 27% of global operational capacity. Announced projects under development are set to boost that total significantly, increasing capacity to 2.7 terawatt-hours, positioning the EU as a global leader. However, those are now at risk and the car manufacturing and battery storage sectors could struggle to source Europe-made batteries as a result, stated Rystad. “High power prices not only pose a significant threat to European decarbonisation efforts but could also result in increased reliance on overseas manufacturing, something governments are eager to avoid. “Building a reliable domestic low-carbon supply chain is essential if the continent is going to stick to its goals, including the REPowerEU plan, but as things stand, that is in serious jeopardy.” Audun Martinsen, Rystad Energy’s head of energy service research, said: “European electricity prices have risen to unprecedented levels in recent weeks due to unplanned nuclear and hydropower plant outages, soaring demand for cooling during an oppressive summer heatwave and reduced gas deliveries from Russia. “Although prices have retreated significantly since these record highs in August, rates remain in the €300 to €400 range, many multiples above pre-energy crisis norms.” Britishvolt’s signature giga-sized battery factory in Blyth in the UK – which would add 30 GWh to the continent’s manufacturing capabilities – has already been delayed to mid-2025 due to rising energy costs and the need for additional fundraising, Rystad stated.

https://renews.biz/80895/high-power-prices-impacting-eu-clean-energy-supply-chains/?mc_cid=824d9f1352&mc_eid=80ee5bb983

So they are having trouble making batteries, solar panels etc from renewable energy. What could possibly go wrong?  ::)

Prime Minister Anthony Albanese has labelled a multi-billion renewable energy initiative as a “nation-building project”, promising it would help to lower power prices.

Utter smacking bullshit ::)

lee wrote on Oct 19^th, 2022 at 7:02pm:

Quote: Research from Rystad Energy reveals that 35GW of solar manufacturing and more than 2000 gigawatt hours of battery cell manufacturing capacity in the EU could be mothballed unless power prices return to normal. The energy intensive nature of these manufacturing processes is leading some operators to temporarily close or abandon production facilities as the cost of doing business escalates. Rystad stated that unless prices turn around soon, Europe’s plans to cut dependence on imported fossil fuels by boosting installed renewable generation capacity and electric vehicle (EV) usage could be derailed. Although Europe’s solar manufacturing capacity is relatively modest on a global scale – making up only 2% of total capacity – any shutdowns or abandonment of projects would have significant long-term negative consequences. The EU has targeted 20GW of production capacity by 2025, and although 35GW of projects is currently planned, many have not secured funding, increasing the risk that these projects will fall through if high power prices continue. Battery cell manufacturing – crucial in the EV and battery storage supply chain – is even more energy intensive than solar manufacturing, and Europe is a major global player. The EU currently boasts about 550GWh of capacity, representing 27% of global operational capacity. Announced projects under development are set to boost that total significantly, increasing capacity to 2.7 terawatt-hours, positioning the EU as a global leader. However, those are now at risk and the car manufacturing and battery storage sectors could struggle to source Europe-made batteries as a result, stated Rystad. “High power prices not only pose a significant threat to European decarbonisation efforts but could also result in increased reliance on overseas manufacturing, something governments are eager to avoid. “Building a reliable domestic low-carbon supply chain is essential if the continent is going to stick to its goals, including the REPowerEU plan, but as things stand, that is in serious jeopardy.” Audun Martinsen, Rystad Energy’s head of energy service research, said: “European electricity prices have risen to unprecedented levels in recent weeks due to unplanned nuclear and hydropower plant outages, soaring demand for cooling during an oppressive summer heatwave and reduced gas deliveries from Russia. “Although prices have retreated significantly since these record highs in August, rates remain in the €300 to €400 range, many multiples above pre-energy crisis norms.” Britishvolt’s signature giga-sized battery factory in Blyth in the UK – which would add 30 GWh to the continent’s manufacturing capabilities – has already been delayed to mid-2025 due to rising energy costs and the need for additional fundraising, Rystad stated. https://renews.biz/80895/high-power-prices-impacting-eu-clean-energy-supply-chains/?mc_cid=824d9f1352&mc_eid=80ee5bb983 So they are having trouble making batteries, solar panels etc from renewable energy.

The EU has been kneecapped by the Russian gas embargo. Get the gas flowing again, and they can resume the transition to renewables.

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 19^th, 2022 at 8:49pm:

The EU has been kneecapped by the Russian gas embargo. Get the gas flowing again, and they can resume the transition to renewables.

They already have enough theoretical renewable capacity. It takes fossil fuel and nuclear power to make the renewables. IF they ever get to the stage they can make renewables from renewable power, then and only then, will renewables have proved themselves.

You think twice nothing is something more than nothing. ::)

Belgarion wrote on Oct 19^th, 2022 at 8:16pm:

Prime Minister Anthony Albanese has labelled a multi-billion renewable energy initiative as a “nation-building project”, promising it would help to lower power prices.

""Under my plan of a cap-and-trade system, electricity rates would necessarily skyrocket, regardless of what I say about whether coal is good or bad, because I'm capping greenhouse gases," Obama said. "Coal power plants, natural gas, whatever the industry was, they would have to retrofit their operations. That will cost money. They will pass that money onto consumers." - Barack Obama

So much for 'cheaper". ::)

lee wrote on Oct 20^th, 2022 at 11:46am:

Belgarion wrote on Oct 19th, 2022 at 8:16pm: Prime Minister Anthony Albanese has labelled a multi-billion renewable energy initiative as a “nation-building project”, promising it would help to lower power prices. ""Under my plan of a cap-and-trade system, electricity rates would necessarily skyrocket, regardless of what I say about whether coal is good or bad, because I'm capping greenhouse gases," Obama said. "Coal power plants, natural gas, whatever the industry was, they would have to retrofit their operations. That will cost money. They will pass that money onto consumers." - Barack Obama So much for 'cheaper". ::)

So Obama's plan was flawed, being steeped in neoliberal market ideology.

The coal industry should be nationalized, renewables rolled out ASAP, and coal progressively closed.

Cap and trade, and carbon taxes, are all orthodox neoliberal economic failures.

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 20^th, 2022 at 12:24pm:

So Obama's plan was flawed, being steeped in neoliberal market ideology.

It went exactly how he said. That's not flawed. It is a feature not a bug.

You have to run backup power all the time for when the renewables can't cut it. So you are paying twice for the power. Only your MMT theory would find that a positive. ::)

They are already closing. Why go to the expense upgrading when the numpties want them closed? ::)

lee wrote on Oct 20^th, 2022 at 12:34pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 20th, 2022 at 12:24pm: So Obama's plan was flawed, being steeped in neoliberal market ideology. It went exactly how he said. That's not flawed. It is a feature not a bug.

?? Obama was the dummy who fell into line with  Larry Summers who advised Obama in the GFC to rescue the banks with government money borrowed from...the banks....

Obama knows nothing about economics. 


Quote:

You have to run backup power all the time for when the renewables can't cut it. So you are paying twice for the power. Only your MMT theory would find that a positive. ::)

Not all the time: back-up gas can be turned on and off, if required.


Quote:

They are already closing. Why go to the expense upgrading when the numpties want them closed? ::)

Filthy coal (expensive to clean) must be shut down ASAP.

Oz has a wonderful opportunity to demonstrate a near 100% renewable economy within a decade, powered by free sun and wind. 

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 20^th, 2022 at 12:47pm:

Not all the time: back-up gas can be turned on and off, if required.

There is a time delay to get it to temperature. Run it without getting it up to temperature increases wear therefore increases cost. You will want the government to run it as well. Governments don't do anything efficiently. ::)


thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 20^th, 2022 at 12:47pm:

Filthy coal (expensive to clean) must be shut down ASAP.

Wow. No longer phasing it out just shut it. For the eastern states which have limited gas. What could possibly go wrong? ::)


thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 20^th, 2022 at 12:47pm:

Oz has a wonderful opportunity to demonstrate a near 100% renewable economy within a decade, powered by free sun and wind.

And yet you can't even produce ONE country or state that has achieved this nirvana. Why is that? ::)

lee wrote on Oct 20^th, 2022 at 2:51pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 20th, 2022 at 12:47pm: Not all the time: back-up gas can be turned on and off, if required. There is a time delay to get it to temperature. Run it without getting it up to temperature increases wear therefore increases cost.

The cost of a flame to keep the plant warm enough to fire up?


Quote:

You will want the government to run it as well. Governments don't do anything efficiently. ::)

neoliberal propaganda


Quote:

Wow. No longer phasing it out just shut it. For the eastern states which have limited gas. What could possibly go wrong? ::)

ASAP means just that - ASAP.  There is no "limited supply"  of Oz gas: the greedy profit driven fossil companies are exporting most of it overseas.

That's why coal and gas need to be nationalized. 


Quote:

And yet you can't even produce ONE country or state that has achieved this nirvana. Why is that? ::)

Because the greed-based private sector fossil industry is still running the show around the world; nevertheless, Oz in particular  is high on the list of nations who could achieve near 100% renewables within a decade, given Oz's  vast solar and and wind resource and small population.

And somehow you expect us to believe. ; ;D ;D ;DD

lee wrote on Oct 20^th, 2022 at 6:04pm:

And somehow you expect us to believe. ; ;D ;D ;DD

The Vic government starting down the right track.....nationalization of the SEC.

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 20^th, 2022 at 3:07pm:

lee wrote on Oct 20th, 2022 at 2:51pm: thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 20th, 2022 at 12:47pm: Not all the time: back-up gas can be turned on and off, if required. There is a time delay to get it to temperature. Run it without getting it up to temperature increases wear therefore increases cost. The cost of a flame to keep the plant warm enough to fire up? Quote: You will want the government to run it as well. Governments don't do anything efficiently. ::) neoliberal propaganda [quote]Wow. No longer phasing it out just shut it. For the eastern states which have limited gas. What could possibly go wrong? ::)

ASAP means just that - ASAP.  There is no "limited supply"  of Oz gas: the greedy profit driven fossil companies are exporting most of it overseas.

That's why coal and gas need to be nationalized. 


Quote:

And yet you can't even produce ONE country or state that has achieved this nirvana. Why is that? ::)

Because the greed-based private sector fossil industry is still running the show around the world; nevertheless, Oz in particular  is high on the list of nations who could achieve near 100% renewables within a decade, given Oz's  vast solar and and wind resource and small population.
[/quote]
Arrant nonsense. 
Andrews banned any further gas exploration and extraction.

Frank wrote on Oct 21^st, 2022 at 3:02pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 20th, 2022 at 3:07pm: lee wrote on Oct 20th, 2022 at 2:51pm: thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 20th, 2022 at 12:47pm: Not all the time: back-up gas can be turned on and off, if required. There is a time delay to get it to temperature. Run it without getting it up to temperature increases wear therefore increases cost. The cost of a flame to keep the plant warm enough to fire up? Quote: You will want the government to run it as well. Governments don't do anything efficiently. ::) neoliberal propaganda [quote]Wow. No longer phasing it out just shut it. For the eastern states which have limited gas. What could possibly go wrong? ::) ASAP means just that - ASAP.  There is no "limited supply"  of Oz gas: the greedy profit driven fossil companies are exporting most of it overseas. That's why coal and gas need to be nationalized.  [quote]And yet you can't even produce ONE country or state that has achieved this nirvana. Why is that? ::)

Because the greed-based private sector fossil industry is still running the show around the world; nevertheless, Oz in particular  is high on the list of nations who could achieve near 100% renewables within a decade, given Oz's  vast solar and and wind resource and small population.
[/quote]
Arrant nonsense. 
Andrews banned any further gas exploration and extraction. [/quote]

banned further gas exploration, as he must. Oz is producing more than enough gas to enable an orderly transition to renewables. 

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 21^st, 2022 at 3:09pm:

Frank wrote on Oct 21st, 2022 at 3:02pm: thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 20th, 2022 at 3:07pm: lee wrote on Oct 20th, 2022 at 2:51pm: thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 20th, 2022 at 12:47pm: Not all the time: back-up gas can be turned on and off, if required. There is a time delay to get it to temperature. Run it without getting it up to temperature increases wear therefore increases cost. The cost of a flame to keep the plant warm enough to fire up? Quote: You will want the government to run it as well. Governments don't do anything efficiently. ::) neoliberal propaganda [quote]Wow. No longer phasing it out just shut it. For the eastern states which have limited gas. What could possibly go wrong? ::) ASAP means just that - ASAP.  There is no "limited supply"  of Oz gas: the greedy profit driven fossil companies are exporting most of it overseas. That's why coal and gas need to be nationalized.  [quote]And yet you can't even produce ONE country or state that has achieved this nirvana. Why is that? ::) Because the greed-based private sector fossil industry is still running the show around the world; nevertheless, Oz in particular  is high on the list of nations who could achieve near 100% renewables within a decade, given Oz's  vast solar and and wind resource and small population.

Arrant nonsense. 
Andrews banned any further gas exploration and extraction. [/quote]

banned further gas exploration, as he must. Oz is producing more than enough gas to enable an orderly transition to renewables. 
[/quote]
Bollox.  Why are energy costs going up if there is more than enough??

One minute you parrot about greedy companies exporting the gas, next minute you want energy nationalised so there is sufficient for the domestic market and then you say there is more than enough as it is, move on, nuffin' to see here.

You talk incessantly, like a parrot on uppers,  and have the same level of comprehension of what you are parroting.

Frank wrote on Oct 21^st, 2022 at 3:28pm:

Bollox.  Why are energy costs going up if there is more than enough??

Because greedy private companies are exploiting high world prices, rather than selling Oz gas to Australians for a reasonable price. 


Quote:

One minute you parrot about greedy companies exporting the gas, next minute you want energy nationalised so there is suficient for the domestic market and then you say there is more than enough as it is, move on, nuffin' to see here.

You summed it up nicely.


Quote:

You talk incessantly, like a parrot on uppers,  and have the same level of comprehension of what you are parroting.

Dear me.

1. Oz is already extracting plenty of gas, to enable  closure of coal ASAP and transition to renewables in an orderly fashion.

2. The greedy private price gougers should be pissed-off, neither Oz nor the world needs them.

3. There is plenty of gas available to the rest of the world without needing to import Oz gas which should be used here. 

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 21^st, 2022 at 3:39pm:

Frank wrote on Oct 21st, 2022 at 3:28pm: Bollox.  Why are energy costs going up if there is more than enough?? Because greedy private companies are exploiting high world prices, rather than selling Oz gas to Australians for a reasonable price.  Quote: One minute you parrot about greedy companies exporting the gas, next minute you want energy nationalised so there is suficient for the domestic market and then you say there is more than enough as it is, move on, nuffin' to see here. You summed it up nicely. [quote]You talk incessantly, like a parrot on uppers,  and have the same level of comprehension of what you are parroting.

Dear me.

1. Oz is already extracting plenty of gas, to enable  closure of coal ASAP and transition to renewables in an orderly fashion.

2. The greedy private price gougers should be pissed-off, neither Oz nor the world needs them.

3. There is plenty of gas available to the rest of the world without needing to import Oz gas which should be used here. 

[/quote]

But oddly (?) enough, you are not parroting that coal exports to China should stop coz that would hurt China - a bad thing.
But whatever hurts Australia - a good thing (like banning additional gas extraction, like not building reliable and cheap power supply using Australian resources that dont depend on China).

Common, worldwide dependence on China. Print mo' moolah.

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 21^st, 2022 at 2:24pm:

lee wrote on Oct 20th, 2022 at 6:04pm: And somehow you expect us to believe. ; ;D ;D ;DD The Vic government starting down the right track.....nationalization of the SEC.

Now all we have to do is wait. ::)

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 21^st, 2022 at 3:09pm:

banned further gas exploration, as he must. Oz is producing more than enough gas to enable an orderly transition to renewables.

Cocky poop.

TGD doesn't want the world to share Australia's good fortune. He wants us to watch Europe and Britain be starved of fossil fuels. China is apparently ok. ::)

lee wrote on Oct 21^st, 2022 at 8:58pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 21st, 2022 at 3:09pm: banned further gas exploration, as he must. Oz is producing more than enough gas to enable an orderly transition to renewables.  Cocky poop.

How so?

lee wrote on Oct 21^st, 2022 at 8:58pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 21st, 2022 at 3:09pm: banned further gas exploration, as he must. Oz is producing more than enough gas to enable an orderly transition to renewables.  Cocky poop.

How so? Consensus is we have to begin reducing CO2 emissions, not increasing them.   

lee wrote on Oct 21^st, 2022 at 9:02pm:

TGD doesn't want the world to share Australia's good fortune. He wants us to watch Europe and Britain be starved of fossil fuels. China is apparently ok. ::)

Russia is much closer to the EU than Oz.
Sort out your stupid NATO war mentality.

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 22^nd, 2022 at 11:11am:

Russia is much closer to the EU than Oz.

Is that the same Russia denying gas to Europe unless in Roublenka? ::)

lee wrote on Oct 22^nd, 2022 at 1:13pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 22nd, 2022 at 11:11am: Russia is much closer to the EU than Oz. Is that the same Russia denying gas to Europe unless in Roublenka? ::)

It's the same Russia your "freedom"/national sovereignty* ideology forced into war, by expanding a triumphalist NATO among former eastern European USSR countries, without inviting Russia into the club.

*National sovereignty must be subject to international law, if we are to overcome the scourge of war.   

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 23^rd, 2022 at 10:58am:

It's the same Russia your "freedom"/national sovereignty* ideology forced into war, by expanding a triumphalist NATO among former eastern European USSR countries, without inviting Russia into the club.

Rubbish. Poor Russia wasn't forced to annexe any part of Ukraine. Your love affair with communism is showing. ::)


thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 23^rd, 2022 at 10:58am:

*National sovereignty must be subject to international law, if we are to overcome the scourge of war.

So the UN should go in against Russia. :P

lee wrote on Oct 23^rd, 2022 at 11:03am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 23rd, 2022 at 10:58am: It's the same Russia your "freedom"/national sovereignty* ideology forced into war, by expanding a triumphalist NATO among former eastern European USSR countries, without inviting Russia into the club. Rubbish. Poor Russia wasn't forced to annexe any part of Ukraine. Your love affair with communism is showing. ::)

well...my belief in prosperity for all is a different topic.


Quote:

So the UN should go in against Russia. :P

No the UN should outlaw war as a means of dispute settlement between nations.  Paranoid Putin should not be allowed to decide to go to war.

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 23^rd, 2022 at 11:10am:

well...my belief in prosperity for all is a different topic.

No it is not. Making the wealthy as poor as the poor doesn't work. Which is exactly what your "policy" would achieve. ::)


thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 23^rd, 2022 at 11:10am:

No the UN should outlaw war as a means of dispute settlement between nations.  Paranoid Putin should not be allowed to decide to go to war.

But he is already AT war. ::)

lee wrote on Oct 23^rd, 2022 at 2:08pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 23rd, 2022 at 11:10am: well...my belief in prosperity for all is a different topic. No it is not. Making the wealthy as poor as the poor doesn't work. Which is exactly what your "policy" would achieve. ::)

Your blind ideological assertion based on capture by obsolete classical economics.

Having an above-poverty floor for universal wellbeing is not "making the wealthy as poor as the poor". The issue is just distribution of a nation's output to ensure an above poverty minimum via universal participation.   


Quote:

But he is already AT war. ::)

 

And you are complicit in that war, by insisting on  maintaining theobsolete concept of absolute national sovereignty, which is incompatible with international law outlawing war. 

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 24^th, 2022 at 11:05am:

Having an above-poverty floor for universal wellbeing is not "making the wealthy as poor as the poor". The issue is just distribution of a nation's output to ensure an above poverty minimum via universal participation.

So an average then. Lift up the poor to the average. Reduce the rich to the average. And expect the rich to keep funding the poor, whilst actually making and selling things with no risk. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D


thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 24^th, 2022 at 11:05am:

And you are complicit in that war, by insisting on  maintaining theobsolete concept of absolute national sovereignty, which is incompatible with international law outlawing war.

You really let yourself go on hyperbole don't you? ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

lee wrote on Oct 24^th, 2022 at 11:47am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 24th, 2022 at 11:05am: Having an above-poverty floor for universal wellbeing is not "making the wealthy as poor as the poor". The issue is just distribution of a nation's output to ensure an above poverty minimum via universal participation.    So an average then.Lift up the poor to the average. Reduce the rich to the average

Wrong again. At least this off topic discussion might result in educating you.

No; a range of reward for participation, with a guaranteed above poverty minimum.


Quote:

And expect the rich to keep funding the poor, whilst actually making and selling things with no risk. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

No, the rich don't need to fund the poor, that's just your obsolete <private sector as sole wealth creator> meme.

"money doesn't grow on rich people" Stephanie Kelton.

The public sector can also be a wealth creator, contributing to the nation's total output. 



Quote:

You really let yourself go on hyperbole don't you? ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

I like a rational, logical argument; where's the hyperbole in insisting on outlawing war as a means of dispute settlement between nations, via establishment of international law?

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 24^th, 2022 at 12:19pm:

No; a range of reward for participation, with a guaranteed above poverty minimum.

So pay non-workers more because they deserve it. ;D ;D ;D ;D


thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 24^th, 2022 at 12:19pm:

No, the rich don't need to fund the poor, that's just your obsolete <private sector as sole wealth creator> meme.

Then there is only fiat MMT, the non-inflationary payment. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D


thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 24^th, 2022 at 12:19pm:

The public sector can also be a wealth creator, contributing to the nation's total output.

Rubbish. The public sector is a drain not a fountain. ::)


thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 24^th, 2022 at 12:19pm:

I like a rational, logical argument; where's the hyperbole in insisting on outlawing war as a means of dispute settlement between nations, via establishment of international law?

When you extend it to my supposed complicity. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

lee wrote on Oct 24^th, 2022 at 2:40pm:

So pay non-workers more because they deserve it. ;D ;D ;D ;D

No; guarantee employment for all, there is almost an unlimited amount of useful work to be done (whether in the public or private sectors)  and no lack of resources (in rich nations) which would preclude above poverty wages for all.


Quote:

Then there is only fiat MMT, the non-inflationary payment. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Since the abandonment of the gold standard, all nations' currencies are fiat; the issue is national  productive capacity, not the illusion of 'commodity' money. 


Quote:

Rubbish. The public sector is a drain not a fountain. ::)

Education (and public infrastructure) is a MAJOR contributor to a nation's productive capacity. So you are wrong, I accept your concession.


Quote:

When you extend it to my supposed complicity. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

You ARE complicit, so long as you insist on the obsolete concept of absolute national sovereignty.

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 24^th, 2022 at 4:46pm:

No; guarantee employment for all, there is almost an unlimited amount of useful work to be done (whether in the public or private sectors)  and no lack of resources (in rich nations) which would preclude above poverty wages for all.

Now all you have to do is convince everyone that they want to be employed. What about sit down money? ::)


thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 24^th, 2022 at 4:46pm:

Since the abandonment of the gold standard, all nations' currencies are fiat; the issue is national  productive capacity, not the illusion of 'commodity' money.

Bullshit.


thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 24^th, 2022 at 4:46pm:

Education (and public infrastructure) is a MAJOR contributor to a nation's productive capacity.

And yet it comes on the back of taxation. Not some fountain of money but a drain on taxpayers.


thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 24^th, 2022 at 4:46pm:

So you are wrong, I accept your concession.

Now you show exactly how little you know. ::)


thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 24^th, 2022 at 4:46pm:

You ARE complicit, so long as you insist on the obsolete concept of absolute national sovereignty.

No I am not. You are really. really stupid if you genuinely believe that. Absolute national sovereignty doesn't give anyone the right to wage war. ::)

lee wrote on Oct 24^th, 2022 at 4:59pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 24th, 2022 at 4:46pm: No; guarantee employment for all, there is almost an unlimited amount of useful work to be done (whether in the public or private sectors)  and no lack of resources (in rich nations) which would preclude above poverty wages for all. Now all you have to do is convince everyone that they want to be employed. What about sit down money? ::)

Given the choice between full participation in the nation's social and economic life, at above poverty level; and wasting away in isolation on below poverty welfare..... 


Quote:

Bullshit.

er...you need to state your argument....


Quote:

And yet it comes on the back of taxation. Not some fountain of money but a drain on taxpayers.

That IS the convention....and an evil convention at that, designed to enrich usurious private sector money lenders who at present have the sole privilege of creating money.


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Now you show exactly how little you know. ::)

I just explained your error above - with you playing into the hands of usurious private sector money lenders - the centuries-old system of money creation which will soon be forced into the dustbin of history.


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No I am not. You are really. really stupid if you genuinely believe that. Absolute national sovereignty doesn't give anyone the right to wage war. ::)

It ensures nations WILL wage war when they think it is to their own advantage, as history demonstrates, regardless of any "right" to make war.

Self-interest among a nation's leaders (ignoring the people who don't want war) means only international law outlawing war can prevent war.

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 24^th, 2022 at 5:28pm:

Given the choice between full participation in the nation's social and economic life, at above poverty level; and wasting away in isolation on below poverty welfare.....

Sop not everyone wants to work.  ::)
thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 24^th, 2022 at 5:28pm:

er...you need to state your argument....

Why your was pure Bullshit. ::)


thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 24^th, 2022 at 5:28pm:

That IS the convention....and an evil convention at that, designed to enrich usurious private sector money lenders who at present have the sole privilege of creating money.

So tell me about these lenders of last resort that lend to the schools? The Reserve Bank is private? ::)


thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 24^th, 2022 at 5:28pm:

I just explained your error above - with you playing into the hands of usurious private sector money lenders - the centuries-old system of money creation which will soon be forced into the dustbin of history.

You just explained your own biased view, Nothing to do with the real world. You talk bullamacow. ::)


thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 24^th, 2022 at 5:28pm:

It ensures nations WILL wage war when they think it is to their own advantage, as history demonstrates, regardless of any "right" to make war.

No it does not. ;D ;D ;D ;D


thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 24^th, 2022 at 5:28pm:

Supposed self-interest means only international law outlawing war can prevent war.

More rubbish. ::)

lee wrote on Oct 24^th, 2022 at 5:40pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 24th, 2022 at 5:28pm: Given the choice between full participation in the nation's social and economic life, at above poverty level; and wasting away in isolation on below poverty welfare.....  Sop not everyone wants to work.  ::)

See how the Right fall back on that false proposition; they hold to a system in which unemployment is built in - aka the NAIRU (google it); and then blame the unemployed for their predicament, by insisting people would rather be unemployed and on the dole.   Sheer evil.   


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Why your was pure Bullshit. ::)

Every time you reply you dig a bigger hole for yourself, while learning a little bit more each time. 


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So tell me about these lenders of last resort that lend to the schools? The Reserve Bank is private? ::)

The reserve bank  is forbidden to create debt free money on behalf of the public sector, that is THE criminal system enforced by the cabal of central bankers dedicated to enriching the private lenders to whom they are beholden.


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You just explained your own biased view, Nothing to do with the real world. You talk bullamacow. ::)

Time will tell, another pandemic will cause the collapse of the current evil system, as central banks end up owing  trillions to private money lenders, which  taxpayers will never be able to repay. 



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More rubbish. ::)

again, you didn't explain why it's rubbish.