https://i.imgur.com/kTyBjmE.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/LGjtcHs.jpg

Sow the breeze - reap the whirlwind....

They should have dropped a third one for the nurses that were ordered into the sea and then shot. Then a forth one to take out that prick Hirohito 

I knew one of them

Beautiful Vivian was my friend

Cool.


Moscow is next.

That Bomb kept the peace and kept the Commie USSR at bay.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uB5K136o0vM

I was personal friends with Vivian Bullwinkle

If not for this Bomb - and the next Bomb - she would not have survived.

Indeed the Japanese were still murdering prisoners after the surrender.

Truman didn't have to drop those 2 bombs.
Japan was already defeated -
the Yanks didn't need to invade Japan and lose more American lives.
That was a clever piece of propaganda that the world swallowed.

The dropping of the 2 atomic bombs was a disgrace to the world
and showed the criminal threat that we have all lived under ever since.

This is August the 6th - Hiroshima day - a day of shame.

What makes you think that Bobby?

freediver wrote on Aug 7^th, 2022 at 12:25pm:

What makes you think that Bobby?

Japan was already defeated.

Most of their cities were reduced to piles of smoking rubble
by conventional bombing including their capital - Tokyo.
The Yanks could have surrounded Japan and cut it off from
all trade until they surrendered.
Sure - it  might have taken another 6 months or so.

Quote:

Japan was already defeated.

Did Japan know that?


Quote:

The Yanks could have surrounded Japan and cut it off from all trade

What makes you think they didn't try that?

freediver wrote on Aug 7^th, 2022 at 12:43pm:

Quote: Japan was already defeated. Did Japan know that?

No - many wanted to fight to the death even though they had lost -
they were brainwashed nut cases.

freediver wrote on Aug 7^th, 2022 at 12:43pm:

Quote: The Yanks could have surrounded Japan and cut it off from all trade What makes you think they didn't try that?

They had already cut off Japan.

Bobby. wrote on Aug 7^th, 2022 at 12:44pm:

freediver wrote on Aug 7th, 2022 at 12:43pm: Quote: Japan was already defeated. Did Japan know that? No - many wanted to fight to the death even though they had lost - they were brainwashed nut cases.

If you have not set foot in a country, and the country has not surrendered, and they are willing to fight you to the death, have you really defeated them?


Quote:

They had already cut off Japan.

Did that work?

freediver wrote on Aug 7^th, 2022 at 12:46pm:

Bobby. wrote on Aug 7th, 2022 at 12:44pm: freediver wrote on Aug 7th, 2022 at 12:43pm: Quote: Japan was already defeated. Did Japan know that? No - many wanted to fight to the death even though they had lost - they were brainwashed nut cases. If you have not set foot in a country, and the country has not surrendered, and they are willing to fight you to the death, have you really defeated them? [quote]They had already cut off Japan.

Did that work?[/quote]


That begs the question -
does a defeat have to be written on paper?
Japan was finished.
I suppose it's the difference between a slow death or a quick death?

Japan was cut off - not a drop of oil or bag of food could reach them -
so it was working.

Quote:

Japan was cut off - not a drop of oil or bag of food could reach them - so it was working.

How do you know?

freediver wrote on Aug 7^th, 2022 at 1:08pm:

Quote: Japan was cut off - not a drop of oil or bag of food could reach them - so it was working. How do you know?

The Jap navy was sunk.
They were making synthetic fuel out of trees to run a few aeroplanes they had left
for Kamikaze missions with pilots who had only a few hours of training.
It was pathetic.

Bobby. wrote on Aug 7^th, 2022 at 12:37pm:

freediver wrote on Aug 7th, 2022 at 12:25pm: What makes you think that Bobby? Japan was already defeated. Most of their cities were reduced to piles of smoking rubble by conventional bombing including their capital - Tokyo. The Yanks could have surrounded Japan and cut it off from all trade until they surrendered. Sure - it  might have taken another 6 months or so.

Yet another revisionist. ::) 
The invasion of the Japanese home islands was planned for November 1945, commencing with the invasion of Kyushu (Operation Olympic), followed by the invasion of Honshu in March 1946 (Operation Coronet). The initial estimate predicted 250,000 casualties in the first phase of these operations alone, with the most pessimistic predictions estimating that the war would continue until 1948, with the final number of casualties in the millions.

The use of the bombs was entirely justified.

Belgarion wrote on Aug 7^th, 2022 at 1:24pm:

Bobby. wrote on Aug 7th, 2022 at 12:37pm: freediver wrote on Aug 7th, 2022 at 12:25pm: What makes you think that Bobby? Japan was already defeated. Most of their cities were reduced to piles of smoking rubble by conventional bombing including their capital - Tokyo. The Yanks could have surrounded Japan and cut it off from all trade until they surrendered. Sure - it  might have taken another 6 months or so. Yet another revisionist. ::)  The invasion of the Japanese home islands was planned for November 1945, commencing with the invasion of Kyushu (Operation Olympic), followed by the invasion of Honshu in March 1946 (Operation Coronet). The initial estimate predicted 250,000 casualties in the first phase of these operations alone, with the most pessimistic predictions estimating that the war would continue until 1948, with the final number of casualties in the millions. The use of the bombs was entirely justified.

I wonder if Truman would have done it if
he'd have known that the Manhattan project
had information leaking like a sieve -
and that Russia would have nukes only 3 years from then -
and that would kick off a cold war that risked destroying the entire earth?
At one point there were 60,000 nuclear weapons.

Bobby. wrote on Aug 7^th, 2022 at 12:45pm:

freediver wrote on Aug 7th, 2022 at 12:43pm: Quote: The Yanks could have surrounded Japan and cut it off from all trade What makes you think they didn't try that? They had already cut off Japan.

Perhaps the number crunchers figured that the cost of retaining such a massive fleet just to contain the Home Islands outweighed the cost of bombing - using bombs they'd already spent billions on.  If the US/UK had simply declared it over without surrender and occupation and withdrawn the fleets, the Japanese would have sold it to their suffering people as a Modern Kamikaze divine wind that saved Nippon..... and nothing would have changed.  Troops from China would have come home and off they'd go again.

The only real option was unconditional surrender and occupation - one way or the other.  Better to use the bombs and secure surrender than kill a million boys getting the same result.

Bobby. wrote on Aug 7^th, 2022 at 1:29pm:

I wonder if Truman would have done it if he'd have known that the Manhattan project had information leaking like a sieve - and that Russia would have nukes only 3 years from then - and that would kick off a cold war that risked destroying the entire earth? At one point there were 60,000 nuclear weapons.

The Japs didn't surrender, only Hirohito did, he told his idiot military to stop fighting, so that his stupid royal family wouldn't get wiped out

There was Russians coming from the north, and Americans coming from the south. He learned the Americans wouldn't harm him or his family, but the Russians might

The Yanks should have jailed him for life, they let him off to easily

Bias_2012 wrote on Aug 7^th, 2022 at 2:00pm:

Bobby. wrote on Aug 7th, 2022 at 1:29pm: I wonder if Truman would have done it if he'd have known that the Manhattan project had information leaking like a sieve - and that Russia would have nukes only 3 years from then - and that would kick off a cold war that risked destroying the entire earth? At one point there were 60,000 nuclear weapons. The Japs didn't surrender, only Hirohito did, he told his idiot military to stop fighting, so that his stupid royal family wouldn't get wiped out There was Russians coming from the north, and Americans coming from the south. He learned the Americans wouldn't harm him or his family, but the Russians might The Yanks should have jailed him for life, they let him off to easily

But the Yanks hanged many of the military leaders.

Tojo was hanged.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1b/Hideki_Tojo2_%28cropped%29.jpg/220px-Hideki_Tojo2_%28cropped%29.jpg




https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hideki_Tojo


Tojo was sentenced to death on November 12, 1948, and executed by hanging 41 days later on December 23, 1948, a week before his 64th birthday.[113] Before his execution, he gave his military ribbons to one of his guards; they are on display at the National Naval Aviation Museum in Pensacola, Florida.[114] In his final statement, he apologised for the atrocities committed by the Japanese military and urged the American military to show compassion toward the Japanese people, who had suffered devastating air attacks and the two atomic bombings.[115]

After his execution, Tojo's body was cremated and his ashes were scattered over the Pacific Ocean approximately 30 miles (48 km) east of Yokohama from a US Army aircraft on the afternoon of 23 December, along with the ashes of six other Class-A war criminals.

The atom bombs dropped on Japan saved millions of lives, allied and Japanese

Bobby. wrote on Aug 7^th, 2022 at 1:14pm:

freediver wrote on Aug 7th, 2022 at 1:08pm: Quote: Japan was cut off - not a drop of oil or bag of food could reach them - so it was working. How do you know? The Jap navy was sunk. They were making synthetic fuel out of trees to run a few aeroplanes they had left for Kamikaze missions with pilots who had only a few hours of training. It was pathetic.

It was enough that the Allies estimated it would cost the lives of 1.5 million soldiers to defeat them. Not exactly pathetic.

Quote:

The Yanks should have jailed him for life, they let him off to easily

It is important that future enemies are willing to trust you that you will not harm their leaders if they surrender. It saves millions of lives, which is more important than vengeance.

freediver wrote on Aug 7^th, 2022 at 4:08pm:

Bobby. wrote on Aug 7th, 2022 at 1:14pm: freediver wrote on Aug 7th, 2022 at 1:08pm: Quote: Japan was cut off - not a drop of oil or bag of food could reach them - so it was working. How do you know? The Jap navy was sunk. They were making synthetic fuel out of trees to run a few aeroplanes they had left for Kamikaze missions with pilots who had only a few hours of training. It was pathetic. It was enough that the Allies estimated it would cost the lives of 1.5 million soldiers to defeat them. Not exactly pathetic.

1.5 million?

Only if Japan was invaded.
Japan is an island nation that was devastated by war -
they would have had to eventually come to peace terms.
It was matter of 6 months to a year perhaps.

I think Truman nuked them more as a lesson for Stalin
in case he had ideas of overrunning western Europe.

Quote:

It was matter of 6 months to a year perhaps.

Are you just making it up as you go along?

How many lives would one more year of war have cost? Above 40 to 50 million died in WWII in total.

freediver wrote on Aug 7^th, 2022 at 9:36pm:

Quote: It was matter of 6 months to a year perhaps. Are you just making it up as you go along? How many lives would one more year of war have cost? Above 40 to 50 million died in WWII in total.

Hi FD,
there is plenty of revisionist literature for you to read on the web
if you want to go into it in great detail.
I don't have exact figures but anyone in this area is speculating
including me - I admit it.

Question -
if you were Truman would you have slept soundly in your bed
after ordering those 2 nuclear attacks?

Bobby. wrote on Aug 7^th, 2022 at 9:42pm:

freediver wrote on Aug 7th, 2022 at 9:36pm: Quote: It was matter of 6 months to a year perhaps. Are you just making it up as you go along? How many lives would one more year of war have cost? Above 40 to 50 million died in WWII in total. Hi FD, there is plenty of revisionist literature for you to read on the web if you want to go into it in great detail. I don't have exact figures but anyone in this area is speculating including me - I admit it. Question - if you were Truman would you have slept soundly in your bed after ordering those 2 nuclear attacks?

Yes.

Brian Ross wrote on Aug 7^th, 2022 at 9:48pm:

Bobby. wrote on Aug 7th, 2022 at 9:42pm: freediver wrote on Aug 7th, 2022 at 9:36pm: Quote: It was matter of 6 months to a year perhaps. Are you just making it up as you go along? How many lives would one more year of war have cost? Above 40 to 50 million died in WWII in total. Hi FD, there is plenty of revisionist literature for you to read on the web if you want to go into it in great detail. I don't have exact figures but anyone in this area is speculating including me - I admit it. Question - if you were Truman would you have slept soundly in your bed after ordering those 2 nuclear attacks? Yes.

That's not very Christian of you Brian.
Would Jesus have ordered those attacks?

Bobby. wrote on Aug 7^th, 2022 at 12:24pm:

Truman didn't have to drop those 2 bombs. Japan was already defeated - the Yanks didn't need to invade Japan and lose more American lives. That was a clever piece of propaganda that the world swallowed. The dropping of the 2 atomic bombs was a disgrace to the world and showed the criminal threat that we have all lived under ever since. This is August the 6th - Hiroshima day - a day of shame.

A great day - Hooray for the Bombing of the Japanese.

Yes he did have to drop those bombs - watch this video and try to learn something.

The Japanese did not surrender because of the Bomb anyway - the Bomb was for Stalin - The Japanese surrendered because of the Soviets - That Bomb kept the peace and kept the Commie USSR at bay.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uB5K136o0vM

Bobby. wrote on Aug 7^th, 2022 at 12:37pm:

freediver wrote on Aug 7th, 2022 at 12:25pm: What makes you think that Bobby? Japan was already defeated. Most of their cities were reduced to piles of smoking rubble by conventional bombing including their capital - Tokyo. The Yanks could have surrounded Japan and cut it off from all trade until they surrendered. Sure - it  might have taken another 6 months or so.

The USSR was ready to invade in 10 days - they called it off because of the Bombs.

The Japanese surrendered because of the Soviets not because of the Bombs.

That Bomb kept the peace and kept the Commie USSR at bay.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uB5K136o0vM

Bobby. wrote on Aug 7^th, 2022 at 9:56pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Aug 7th, 2022 at 9:48pm: Bobby. wrote on Aug 7th, 2022 at 9:42pm: freediver wrote on Aug 7th, 2022 at 9:36pm: Quote: It was matter of 6 months to a year perhaps. Are you just making it up as you go along? How many lives would one more year of war have cost? Above 40 to 50 million died in WWII in total. Hi FD, there is plenty of revisionist literature for you to read on the web if you want to go into it in great detail. I don't have exact figures but anyone in this area is speculating including me - I admit it. Question - if you were Truman would you have slept soundly in your bed after ordering those 2 nuclear attacks? Yes. That's not very Christian of you Brian. Would Jesus have ordered those attacks?

That wasn't the question, Bobby.  Jesus wasn't the el Presidente in 1945. Truman was. ::) ::)

Bobby. wrote on Aug 7^th, 2022 at 1:14pm:

freediver wrote on Aug 7th, 2022 at 1:08pm: Quote: Japan was cut off - not a drop of oil or bag of food could reach them - so it was working. How do you know? The Jap navy was sunk. They were making synthetic fuel out of trees to run a few aeroplanes they had left for Kamikaze missions with pilots who had only a few hours of training. It was pathetic.

You do not know what you are talking about

That Bomb kept the peace and kept the Commie USSR at bay.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uB5K136o0vM

Boris wrote on Aug 7^th, 2022 at 9:58pm:

Bobby. wrote on Aug 7th, 2022 at 12:24pm: Truman didn't have to drop those 2 bombs. Japan was already defeated - the Yanks didn't need to invade Japan and lose more American lives. That was a clever piece of propaganda that the world swallowed. The dropping of the 2 atomic bombs was a disgrace to the world and showed the criminal threat that we have all lived under ever since. This is August the 6th - Hiroshima day - a day of shame. A great day - Hooray for the Bombing of the Japanese. Yes he did have to drop those bombs - watch this video and try to learn something. The Japanese did not surrender because of the Bomb anyway - the Bomb was for Stalin - The Japanese surrendered because of the Soviets - That Bomb kept the peace and kept the Commie USSR at bay. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uB5K136o0vM

I agree that the nukes were dropped as a message for Stalin and
had little to do with an already defeated Japan.

Bobby. wrote on Aug 7^th, 2022 at 9:22pm:

freediver wrote on Aug 7th, 2022 at 4:08pm: Bobby. wrote on Aug 7th, 2022 at 1:14pm: freediver wrote on Aug 7th, 2022 at 1:08pm: Quote: Japan was cut off - not a drop of oil or bag of food could reach them - so it was working. How do you know? The Jap navy was sunk. They were making synthetic fuel out of trees to run a few aeroplanes they had left for Kamikaze missions with pilots who had only a few hours of training. It was pathetic. It was enough that the Allies estimated it would cost the lives of 1.5 million soldiers to defeat them. Not exactly pathetic. 1.5 million? Only if Japan was invaded. Japan is an island nation that was devastated by war - they would have had to eventually come to peace terms. It was matter of 6 months to a year perhaps. I think Truman nuked them more as a lesson for Stalin in case he had ideas of overrunning western Europe.

Millions would have been killed 1 million Americans half a million British - and millions of Japanese

Try and learn something

That Bomb kept the peace and kept the Commie USSR at bay.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uB5K136o0vM

Brian Ross wrote on Aug 7^th, 2022 at 10:00pm:

Bobby. wrote on Aug 7th, 2022 at 9:56pm: Brian Ross wrote on Aug 7th, 2022 at 9:48pm: Bobby. wrote on Aug 7th, 2022 at 9:42pm: freediver wrote on Aug 7th, 2022 at 9:36pm: Quote: It was matter of 6 months to a year perhaps. Are you just making it up as you go along? How many lives would one more year of war have cost? Above 40 to 50 million died in WWII in total. Hi FD, there is plenty of revisionist literature for you to read on the web if you want to go into it in great detail. I don't have exact figures but anyone in this area is speculating including me - I admit it. Question - if you were Truman would you have slept soundly in your bed after ordering those 2 nuclear attacks? Yes. That's not very Christian of you Brian. Would Jesus have ordered those attacks? That wasn't the question, Bobby.  Jesus wasn't the el Presidente in 1945. Truman was. ::) ::)

Truman had to die one day with that on his conscience.

I wonder what he will say to Saint Peter at the gates of heaven?
"please let me in?  "

Bobby. wrote on Aug 7^th, 2022 at 10:02pm:

Boris wrote on Aug 7th, 2022 at 9:58pm: Bobby. wrote on Aug 7th, 2022 at 12:24pm: Truman didn't have to drop those 2 bombs. Japan was already defeated - the Yanks didn't need to invade Japan and lose more American lives. That was a clever piece of propaganda that the world swallowed. The dropping of the 2 atomic bombs was a disgrace to the world and showed the criminal threat that we have all lived under ever since. This is August the 6th - Hiroshima day - a day of shame. A great day - Hooray for the Bombing of the Japanese. Yes he did have to drop those bombs - watch this video and try to learn something. The Japanese did not surrender because of the Bomb anyway - the Bomb was for Stalin - The Japanese surrendered because of the Soviets - That Bomb kept the peace and kept the Commie USSR at bay. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uB5K136o0vM I agree that the nukes were dropped as a message for Stalin and had little to do with an already defeated Japan.

You live in a dream world

Millions would have died if there was an invasion

So millions were saved

Bobby. wrote on Aug 7^th, 2022 at 9:22pm:

freediver wrote on Aug 7th, 2022 at 4:08pm: Bobby. wrote on Aug 7th, 2022 at 1:14pm: freediver wrote on Aug 7th, 2022 at 1:08pm: Quote: Japan was cut off - not a drop of oil or bag of food could reach them - so it was working. How do you know? The Jap navy was sunk. They were making synthetic fuel out of trees to run a few aeroplanes they had left for Kamikaze missions with pilots who had only a few hours of training. It was pathetic. It was enough that the Allies estimated it would cost the lives of 1.5 million soldiers to defeat them. Not exactly pathetic. 1.5 million? Only if Japan was invaded. Japan is an island nation that was devastated by war - they would have had to eventually come to peace terms. It was matter of 6 months to a year perhaps. I think Truman nuked them more as a lesson for Stalin in case he had ideas of overrunning western Europe.

You know nothing

The Soviets were ready to invade in 10 days after Manchuria - all the Japanese forces were in the South ready to fight the US troops but the Soviets were going to invade the North with was wide open.
During the Soviet-Japanese War in August 1945, the Soviet Union made plans to invade Hokkaido, the northernmost of Japan's four main Home Islands.
The invasion was cancelled on August 22, two days before their scheduled start, and Soviet forces concentrated on taking the Kuril Islands instead.

The Japanese surrendered to the Americans because they were afraid of the Soviets raping their women and the Japanese treasure their DNA - there were Japanese in Berlin when Germany fell and knew millions of German women were raped and impregnated - they they could not tolerate - so for the survival of the Japanese people they surrendered to the USA

The Bombs shocked Stalin so he cancelled the invasion

Boris wrote on Aug 7^th, 2022 at 10:13pm:

Bobby. wrote on Aug 7th, 2022 at 10:02pm: Boris wrote on Aug 7th, 2022 at 9:58pm: Bobby. wrote on Aug 7th, 2022 at 12:24pm: Truman didn't have to drop those 2 bombs. Japan was already defeated - the Yanks didn't need to invade Japan and lose more American lives. That was a clever piece of propaganda that the world swallowed. The dropping of the 2 atomic bombs was a disgrace to the world and showed the criminal threat that we have all lived under ever since. This is August the 6th - Hiroshima day - a day of shame. A great day - Hooray for the Bombing of the Japanese. Yes he did have to drop those bombs - watch this video and try to learn something. The Japanese did not surrender because of the Bomb anyway - the Bomb was for Stalin - The Japanese surrendered because of the Soviets - That Bomb kept the peace and kept the Commie USSR at bay. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uB5K136o0vM I agree that the nukes were dropped as a message for Stalin and had little to do with an already defeated Japan. You live in a dream world Millions would have died if there was an invasion So millions were saved

What invasion?

Japan was already defeated.
the Yanks didn't need to invade Japan and lose more American lives.
That was a clever piece of propaganda that the world swallowed.

Boris wrote on Aug 7^th, 2022 at 10:18pm:

Bobby. wrote on Aug 7th, 2022 at 9:22pm: freediver wrote on Aug 7th, 2022 at 4:08pm: Bobby. wrote on Aug 7th, 2022 at 1:14pm: freediver wrote on Aug 7th, 2022 at 1:08pm: Quote: Japan was cut off - not a drop of oil or bag of food could reach them - so it was working. How do you know? The Jap navy was sunk. They were making synthetic fuel out of trees to run a few aeroplanes they had left for Kamikaze missions with pilots who had only a few hours of training. It was pathetic. It was enough that the Allies estimated it would cost the lives of 1.5 million soldiers to defeat them. Not exactly pathetic. 1.5 million? Only if Japan was invaded. Japan is an island nation that was devastated by war - they would have had to eventually come to peace terms. It was matter of 6 months to a year perhaps. I think Truman nuked them more as a lesson for Stalin in case he had ideas of overrunning western Europe. You know nothing The Soviets were ready to invade in 10 days after Manchuria - all the Japanese forces were in the South ready to fight the US troops but the Soviets were going to invade the North with was wide open. During the Soviet-Japanese War in August 1945, the Soviet Union made plans to invade Hokkaido, the northernmost of Japan's four main Home Islands. The invasion was cancelled on August 22, two days before their scheduled start, and Soviet forces concentrated on taking the Kuril Islands instead. The Japanese surrendered to the Americans because they were afraid of the Soviets raping their women and the Japanese treasure their DNA - there were Japanese in Berlin when Germany fell and knew millions of German women were raped and impregnated - they they could not tolerate - so for the survival of the Japanese people they surrendered to the USA The Bombs shocked Stalin so he cancelled the invasion

Fact check:

The discovery in 1953 of the double helix,
the twisted-ladder structure of deoxyribonucleic acid (DNA),
by James Watson and Francis Crick marked a milestone
in the history of science and gave rise to modern molecular biology,

Millions for German women and girls were raped and impregnated

Japanese officers saw all that and reported it to the Big Six

They knew the Soviets would soon invade in the North so they surrendered to the US

To save their women from Russian rapists and mixed raced children

Not because of any Bomb Atomic or otherwise

Bobby. wrote on Aug 7^th, 2022 at 10:18pm:

Boris wrote on Aug 7th, 2022 at 10:13pm: Bobby. wrote on Aug 7th, 2022 at 10:02pm: Boris wrote on Aug 7th, 2022 at 9:58pm: Bobby. wrote on Aug 7th, 2022 at 12:24pm: Truman didn't have to drop those 2 bombs. Japan was already defeated - the Yanks didn't need to invade Japan and lose more American lives. That was a clever piece of propaganda that the world swallowed. The dropping of the 2 atomic bombs was a disgrace to the world and showed the criminal threat that we have all lived under ever since. This is August the 6th - Hiroshima day - a day of shame. A great day - Hooray for the Bombing of the Japanese. Yes he did have to drop those bombs - watch this video and try to learn something. The Japanese did not surrender because of the Bomb anyway - the Bomb was for Stalin - The Japanese surrendered because of the Soviets - That Bomb kept the peace and kept the Commie USSR at bay. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uB5K136o0vM I agree that the nukes were dropped as a message for Stalin and had little to do with an already defeated Japan. You live in a dream world Millions would have died if there was an invasion So millions were saved What invasion? Japan was already defeated. the Yanks didn't need to invade Japan and lose more American lives. That was a clever piece of propaganda that the world swallowed.

The USSR was going to Invade in the North

The US and British were going to invade in the South

Millions would have died

Watch this you ignorant fool

[media]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uB5K136o0vM

Boris wrote on Aug 7^th, 2022 at 10:31pm:

The USSR was going to Invade in the North The US and British were going to invade in the South Millions would have died Watch this you ignorant fool [media]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uB5K136o0vM

I already watched it and commented - you fool.

I'm a WW2 historian compared to you.

You can't handle the truth

You know nothing

The Soviets were ready to invade in 10 days after Manchuria - all the Japanese forces were in the South ready to fight the US troops but the Soviets were going to invade the North which was wide open.
During the Soviet-Japanese War in August 1945, the Soviet Union made plans to invade Hokkaido, the northernmost of Japan's four main Home Islands.
The invasion was cancelled on August 22, two days before their scheduled start, and Soviet forces concentrated on taking the Kuril Islands instead.

The Japanese surrendered to the Americans because they were afraid of the Soviets raping their women and the Japanese treasure their genes - there were Japanese in Berlin when Germany fell and knew millions of German women were raped and impregnated - they they could not tolerate - so for the survival of the Japanese people they surrendered to the USA

The Bombs shocked Stalin so he cancelled the invasion


Operation Downfall was the proposed Allied plan for the invasion of the Japanese home islands near the end of World War II. The planned operation was cancelled when Japan surrendered following the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, the Soviet declaration of war, and the invasion of Manchuria.

Bobby. wrote on Aug 7^th, 2022 at 10:18pm:

What invasion? Japan was already defeated. the Yanks didn't need to invade Japan and lose more American lives. That was a clever piece of propaganda that the world swallowed.

Boris wrote on Aug 7^th, 2022 at 7:50am:

That Bomb kept the peace and kept the Commie USSR at bay. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uB5K136o0vM

Speaking of Winston Churchill, my Mum was a typist for him in Whitehall during the war.  8-)

Boris wrote on Aug 7^th, 2022 at 10:46pm:

Bobby. wrote on Aug 7th, 2022 at 10:18pm: What invasion? Japan was already defeated. the Yanks didn't need to invade Japan and lose more American lives. That was a clever piece of propaganda that the world swallowed.

Good - so you agree with me now?

you are forgiven
namaste

Bobby. wrote on Aug 8^th, 2022 at 8:28am:

Boris wrote on Aug 7th, 2022 at 10:46pm: Bobby. wrote on Aug 7th, 2022 at 10:18pm: What invasion? Japan was already defeated. the Yanks didn't need to invade Japan and lose more American lives. That was a clever piece of propaganda that the world swallowed. Good - so you agree with me now? you are forgiven namaste

The USSR was about to invade fool

Stalin called it off because of the Bombs - you total fool

The US and Britain was going to invade and 1.5 million US and British soldiers would have been killed.

The Japanese surrendered to the US because they were afraid of the USSR

The Soviet Invasion was on and was cancelled 2 days before the Surrendered

You are such an idiot

Boris wrote on Aug 8^th, 2022 at 8:47am:

Bobby. wrote on Aug 8th, 2022 at 8:28am: Boris wrote on Aug 7th, 2022 at 10:46pm: Bobby. wrote on Aug 7th, 2022 at 10:18pm: What invasion? Japan was already defeated. the Yanks didn't need to invade Japan and lose more American lives. That was a clever piece of propaganda that the world swallowed. Good - so you agree with me now? you are forgiven namaste The USSR was about to invade fool Stalin called it off because of the Bombs - you total fool The US and Britain was going to invade and 1.5 million US and British soldiers would have been killed. The Japanese surrendered to the US because they were afraid of the USSR The Soviet Invasion was on and was cancelled 2 days before the Surrendered You are such an idiot

You repeat Govt. lies.

You know -
if Germany would have won the war:
Churchill and bomber Harris would have been hanged?

Bobby. wrote on Aug 7^th, 2022 at 9:42pm:

freediver wrote on Aug 7th, 2022 at 9:36pm: Quote: It was matter of 6 months to a year perhaps. Are you just making it up as you go along? How many lives would one more year of war have cost? Above 40 to 50 million died in WWII in total. Hi FD, there is plenty of revisionist literature for you to read on the web if you want to go into it in great detail. I don't have exact figures but anyone in this area is speculating including me - I admit it. Question - if you were Truman would you have slept soundly in your bed after ordering those 2 nuclear attacks?

Yes, but is it your own speculation?

freediver wrote on Aug 8^th, 2022 at 6:17pm:

Bobby. wrote on Aug 7th, 2022 at 9:42pm: freediver wrote on Aug 7th, 2022 at 9:36pm: Quote: It was matter of 6 months to a year perhaps. Are you just making it up as you go along? How many lives would one more year of war have cost? Above 40 to 50 million died in WWII in total. Hi FD, there is plenty of revisionist literature for you to read on the web if you want to go into it in great detail. I don't have exact figures but anyone in this area is speculating including me - I admit it. Question - if you were Truman would you have slept soundly in your bed after ordering those 2 nuclear attacks? Yes, but is it your own speculation?

Research would be required, but Truman may not have had full knowledge of where and when the two bombs were dropped

After the second bomb, he ordered that he must be notified before a third bomb was used. We now know a third one was not necessary

freediver wrote on Aug 8^th, 2022 at 6:17pm:

Yes, but is it your own speculation?

Yes -
I'm not the only one FD.
You need to read up on the subject -
I can help you:

https://apjjf.org/2021/20/Kuzmarov-Peace.html


Was There a Diplomatic Alternative?
The Atomic Bombing and Japan's Surrender

October 15, 2021.


One day after the atomic bombing of Hiroshima, General MacArthur’s pilot, Weldon E. Rhoades, noted in his diary: “General MacArthur definitely is appalled and depressed by this ‘Frankenstein’ monster. I had a long talk with him today, necessitated by the impending trip to Okinawa.”4

Admiral Halsey, Commander of the U.S. Third Fleet, testified before Congress in September 1949, “I believe that bombing – especially atomic bombing – of civilians, is morally indefensible. . . . I know that the extermination theory has no place in a properly conducted war.”5

Admiral Leahy, Truman’s chief military advisor, wrote in his memoirs: “It is my opinion that the use of this barbarous weapon at Hiroshima and Nagasaki was of no material assistance in our war against Japan. The Japanese were already defeated and ready to surrender because of the effective sea blockade and the successful bombing with conventional weapons.”6

That the Japanese were on the verge of defeat was made clear to the president in a top-secret memorandum from Secretary of War Henry Stimson on July 2, 1945. Stimson noted that Japan “has no allies,” its “navy is nearly destroyed,” she is vulnerable to an economic blockade depriving her “of sufficient food and supplies for her population,” she is “terribly vulnerable to our concentrated air attack upon her crowded cities, industrial, and food resources,” she “has against her not only the Anglo-American forces but the rising forces of China and the ominous threat of Russia,” and the United States has “inexhaustible and untouched industrial resources to bring to bear against her diminishing potential.”

Russia had next to no amphibious capability to invade Japan, and USA wasn't about to provide them with any.

The A bombs saved millions of lives.

As it was, the tonnage of bombs dropped was increasing by 50% every month, when the EU bombing force arrived it was going to increase tonnage by a factor of 3.

That's just in the bombing alone. Had there been an invasion, 10 or so million Japanese probably would have died if Downfall went ahead.

Bobby I can understand why no-one would want to take credit for that speculation.

freediver wrote on Aug 8^th, 2022 at 6:42pm:

Bobby I can understand why no-one would want to take credit for that speculation.

Are you saying the opinions of:

General MacArthur,
Admiral Halsey, Commander of the U.S. Third Fleet &
Admiral Leahy, Truman’s chief military advisor

are not worthy enough for you to consider?
Do you know more than them?
Please tell us?

During the Soviet-Japanese War in August 1945, the Soviet Union made plans to invade Hokkaido, the northernmost of Japan's four main Home Islands. Opposition from the United States and doubts within the Soviet high command caused the plans to be cancelled before the invasion could begin.
Date: Planned beginning August 24, 1945
Result: Cancelled on August 22, 1945

Bobby. wrote on Aug 8^th, 2022 at 6:35pm:

freediver wrote on Aug 8th, 2022 at 6:17pm: Yes, but is it your own speculation? Yes - I'm not the only one FD. You need to read up on the subject - I can help you: https://apjjf.org/2021/20/Kuzmarov-Peace.html Was There a Diplomatic Alternative? The Atomic Bombing and Japan's Surrender October 15, 2021. One day after the atomic bombing of Hiroshima, General MacArthur’s pilot, Weldon E. Rhoades, noted in his diary: “General MacArthur definitely is appalled and depressed by this ‘Frankenstein’ monster. I had a long talk with him today, necessitated by the impending trip to Okinawa.”4 Admiral Halsey, Commander of the U.S. Third Fleet, testified before Congress in September 1949, “I believe that bombing – especially atomic bombing – of civilians, is morally indefensible. . . . I know that the extermination theory has no place in a properly conducted war.”5 Admiral Leahy, Truman’s chief military advisor, wrote in his memoirs: “It is my opinion that the use of this barbarous weapon at Hiroshima and Nagasaki was of no material assistance in our war against Japan. The Japanese were already defeated and ready to surrender because of the effective sea blockade and the successful bombing with conventional weapons.”6 That the Japanese were on the verge of defeat was made clear to the president in a top-secret memorandum from Secretary of War Henry Stimson on July 2, 1945. Stimson noted that Japan “has no allies,” its “navy is nearly destroyed,” she is vulnerable to an economic blockade depriving her “of sufficient food and supplies for her population,” she is “terribly vulnerable to our concentrated air attack upon her crowded cities, industrial, and food resources,” she “has against her not only the Anglo-American forces but the rising forces of China and the ominous threat of Russia,” and the United States has “inexhaustible and untouched industrial resources to bring to bear against her diminishing potential.”

Bobby, you are sadly mistaken. MacArthur was an egotist who would willingly sacrifice others for his own ends and was angry that the use of nuclear weapons had robbed him of the chance to showcase his 'leadership' in an invasion of the home islands.  Had such an invasion gone ahead the Japanese people were prepared to resist until the death. Literally.

There were measures in place to execute all POWs and civilian internees in Japanese hands. Not only in Japan itself but in all other ares still held by  Japanese forces. There was to be total mobilisation of the entire population - every man woman and child. Look at this picture https://i2.wp.com/militaryhistorynow.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/1024px-Kokumin_Giyutai.jpg?resize=560%2C409&ssl=1 or this one https://i.pinimg.com/originals/b7/54/f3/b754f36331125481cf10c91fa92632bf.jpg

This shows how committed the Japanese people were. They did not believe they were defeated and as I noted earlier, the casualties on both sides would have been horrendous.

All these lives were saved by the use of nuclear weapons. Your  'war crime' assertion is ridiculous.

Bobby. wrote on Aug 8^th, 2022 at 6:47pm:

freediver wrote on Aug 8th, 2022 at 6:42pm: Bobby I can understand why no-one would want to take credit for that speculation. Are you saying the opinions of: General MacArthur, Admiral Halsey, Commander of the U.S. Third Fleet & Admiral Leahy, Truman’s chief military advisor are not worthy enough for you to consider? Do you know more than them? Please tell us?

No Bobby, that is not what I said. You quoted what I said.

Captain Nemo wrote on Aug 8^th, 2022 at 12:25am:

Boris wrote on Aug 7th, 2022 at 7:50am: That Bomb kept the peace and kept the Commie USSR at bay. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uB5K136o0vM Speaking of Winston Churchill, my Mum was a typist for him in Whitehall during the war.  8-)

What???????

You're joking...yeah?

Bobby. wrote on Aug 7^th, 2022 at 12:24pm:

Truman didn't have to drop those 2 bombs. Japan was already defeated - the Yanks didn't need to invade Japan and lose more American lives. That was a clever piece of propaganda that the world swallowed. The dropping of the 2 atomic bombs was a disgrace to the world and showed the criminal threat that we have all lived under ever since. This is August the 6th - Hiroshima day - a day of shame.

Silly nonsense.

Bobby. wrote on Aug 7^th, 2022 at 12:24pm:

Truman didn't have to drop those 2 bombs. Japan was already defeated - the Yanks didn't need to invade Japan and lose more American lives. That was a clever piece of propaganda that the world swallowed. The dropping of the 2 atomic bombs was a disgrace to the world and showed the criminal threat that we have all lived under ever since. This is August the 6th - Hiroshima day - a day of shame.

Silly nonsense.

Belgarion wrote on Aug 8^th, 2022 at 9:25pm:

Bobby. wrote on Aug 8th, 2022 at 6:35pm: freediver wrote on Aug 8th, 2022 at 6:17pm: Yes, but is it your own speculation? Yes - I'm not the only one FD. You need to read up on the subject - I can help you: https://apjjf.org/2021/20/Kuzmarov-Peace.html Was There a Diplomatic Alternative? The Atomic Bombing and Japan's Surrender October 15, 2021. One day after the atomic bombing of Hiroshima, General MacArthur’s pilot, Weldon E. Rhoades, noted in his diary: “General MacArthur definitely is appalled and depressed by this ‘Frankenstein’ monster. I had a long talk with him today, necessitated by the impending trip to Okinawa.”4 Admiral Halsey, Commander of the U.S. Third Fleet, testified before Congress in September 1949, “I believe that bombing – especially atomic bombing – of civilians, is morally indefensible. . . . I know that the extermination theory has no place in a properly conducted war.”5 Admiral Leahy, Truman’s chief military advisor, wrote in his memoirs: “It is my opinion that the use of this barbarous weapon at Hiroshima and Nagasaki was of no material assistance in our war against Japan. The Japanese were already defeated and ready to surrender because of the effective sea blockade and the successful bombing with conventional weapons.”6 That the Japanese were on the verge of defeat was made clear to the president in a top-secret memorandum from Secretary of War Henry Stimson on July 2, 1945. Stimson noted that Japan “has no allies,” its “navy is nearly destroyed,” she is vulnerable to an economic blockade depriving her “of sufficient food and supplies for her population,” she is “terribly vulnerable to our concentrated air attack upon her crowded cities, industrial, and food resources,” she “has against her not only the Anglo-American forces but the rising forces of China and the ominous threat of Russia,” and the United States has “inexhaustible and untouched industrial resources to bring to bear against her diminishing potential.” Bobby, you are sadly mistaken. MacArthur was an egotist who would willingly sacrifice others for his own ends and was angry that the use of nuclear weapons had robbed him of the chance to showcase his 'leadership' in an invasion of the home islands.  Had such an invasion gone ahead the Japanese people were prepared to resist until the death. Literally. There were measures in place to execute all POWs and civilian internees in Japanese hands. Not only in Japan itself but in all other ares still held by  Japanese forces. There was to be total mobilisation of the entire population - every man woman and child. Look at this picture https://i2.wp.com/militaryhistorynow.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/1024px-Kokumin_Giyutai.jpg?resize=560%2C409&ssl=1 or this one https://i.pinimg.com/originals/b7/54/f3/b754f36331125481cf10c91fa92632bf.jpg This shows how committed the Japanese people were. They did not believe they were defeated and as I noted earlier, the casualties on both sides would have been horrendous. All these lives were saved by the use of nuclear weapons. Your  'war crime' assertion is ridiculous.

May I interject here for a moment please (my hubby is a Foxtel History addict and as his wife my place is next to him .. on this comfy sofa watching whatever he watches).

We've listened to that many documentaries over the use of the atomic bomb and whether it was necessary/warranted esp so late in the war yadda yadda yadda.

There are 2 schools of thought over this. 1 represents your view Belgarian; the other represents Bobby's view.

There is an emerging 3rd view. And that's this : irrespective of where Japan was at in 1945 ... the war had drained an entire globe of millions of people, damaged land and other natural resources and devastated economies that everyone everywhere was physically/psychologically/emotionally/financially EXHAUSTED.

Meantime Japan's soldiers were still operating as indoctrinated robots fully controlled by their Emperor /god. They were ordered to fight to the last man and that was the only order they were prepared to listen to.

And this is where the USA comes in: Having grabbed a few gifted scientists from the now defeated Germany ... they were more than ready to use this weapon in order to FINALLY bring an end to a war which started in 1939. So by 1945.... a wonderful 2 pronged opportunity arose for the US. The US could finally get back at Japan for Pearl Harbour (that reason wasn't talked about much of course) WHILE testing out what an atomic bomb could actually do because no one REALLY knew (that reason was also not talked about much).

Anyway the day came where the marketing of the idea of the necessity for using the atomic bomb was finally approved. Essentially ALL sides were go. Which sides? These ones : If you weren't sick of war and its death and destruction you were sick of Japan's robot like soldiers who fully intended to continue fighting til the last man. I should mention here that "man" would have included boys.

Others were keen for revenge for Pearl Harbour and others were keen to see what emerging atomic technology could do to a relentless enemy hell bent on continuing to save their emperor's face and reputation.

Irrespective of which side you chose/identified with, you were party to the decision to go ahead.

To the Japanese the Bombs were irrelevant

They were not a main concern - they had already lost 66 cities from conventional bombing and many more people were killed by Conventional bombing - in Tokyo alone 100,000 people died.

The Japanese were really fearful of the Russians and could not care less about the Bombs - so they surrendered to the US just days before the USSR were to invade Hokkaido

The Japanese did not surrender because of the Bombs but because of the Soviets

That is the reality

If you want horror - forget Hiroshima and Nagasaki - look at Nanking

Japanese officers had competitions to see who was fastest cutting off 100 civilian heads - all blindfolded and on their knees in a line.

The Japanese loved killing and mutilating unarmed Chinese Citizens

After the Doolittle Raid the Japanese murdered 250,000 Chinese Civilians to get information on the survivors of the US aircrews.

It matters not if you die by Nuke or Bayonet or Bullet or Katana - you are dead.

Boris wrote on Aug 8^th, 2022 at 10:25pm:

To the Japanese the Bombs were irrelevant They were not a main concern - they had already lost 66 cities from conventional bombing and many more people were killed by Conventional bombing - in Tokyo alone 100,000 people died. The Japanese were really fearful of the Russians and could not care less about the Bombs - so they surrendered to the US just days before the USSR were to invade Hokkaido

There is no evidence to suggest that this was a reality.  Yes, the Japanese were afraid of the fUSSR but it was a remoter threat than you seem to consider.  The Soviet's lacked the ability to project their forces to Hakkado.  The most they could achieve was some of the Kurile islands and Sakalin and even there the Japanese managed to resist most of the Soviet forces landed for several days.  The Soviets simply lacked the backup forces available to the American forces.

The USAAF was able to project it's force against the home islands.  It had the B-29 heavy bomber and was able to start using in the last few weeks of the conflict the B-32 Dominator heavy bomber.   Then you have Tiger Force, Lancaster and Lincoln heavy bombers from the RAF.  To kill the large number of civilians mentioned in Tokyo, it took a vast number of bombers - over several hundred dropping incendiaries in firestorm raids of unimaginable savagery and duration.  The Japanese were unprepared for them and their cities were unfortunately constructed in such a manner that they were unstoppable once started.  Compare with the what occurred in the A-Bomb raids, by a single bomber.

Boris wrote on Aug 8^th, 2022 at 10:25pm:

To the Japanese the Bombs were irrelevant

Nah, it only took one atom bomb to wipe out a city ... one plane with one bomb ... that's what scared the inbred Emperor, Hirohito

The Japs in Hiroshima thought it was a weather plane flying overhead ... and it was, it changed the weather from cool to extremely hot, vaporizingly hot

And the B29 was flying higher than any expected Jap fighters - clear run.

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 8^th, 2022 at 9:41pm:

Captain Nemo wrote on Aug 8th, 2022 at 12:25am: Boris wrote on Aug 7th, 2022 at 7:50am: That Bomb kept the peace and kept the Commie USSR at bay. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uB5K136o0vM Speaking of Winston Churchill, my Mum was a typist for him in Whitehall during the war.  8-) What??????? You're joking...yeah?

Nope. She was born in 1920 and was one of two typists working for Churchill at the Whitehall underground complex during the war.

She actually had one life-long mystery about that time. Once, Churchill turned to her and said her name - about to ask her about something, but then changed his mind and turned away. She wondered about what he was going to ask her right up until she died in 2019.

Her first husband was killed during the war (flight crew on a Lancaster bomber)

She moved to Oz with her 2nd husband as 10 pound Poms after the war. They got divorced.

I'm a son of her 3rd and final husband.

She had 6 children. The first when she was 18. She adopted him out.

3 children with husband #2

2 children with husband #3.

I'm the last child.

One US Airman taken POW was tortured and told the Japanese they (the US) had 100 Nukes ready to drop one a week. They didn't but the Japanese believed him.

The Japanese knew the Soviets were going to Invade in a matter of days.

The USSR had just rolled up 1 million Japanese soldiers in Manchuria like a newspaper in Operation August Storm and now wanted Japan.

The Soviets started taking Japanese Islands and were going to take Hokkaido and as the Japanese troops were in the South ready to fight the US troops after they took Okinawa, the North of Japan was wide open - and they all knew it.

The Bombs (Nagasaki was not even mentioned in the minutes of the Big 6 Meetings and Hiroshima only barely - "We lost a city last night from just one Bomb" "OK well what about the USSR?" - and they Japanese Big 6 in the Minutes could not care about losing cities but were pooping their pants about a Russian Invasion and what they would do to their Women as they had just done in Germany.

The Japanese knew the US would not rape their women on the same scale as the USSR troops so they surrendered to the US on the grounds the US keep the Emperor, help them rebuild and keep the USSR at bay.

Hirohito was a member of the Big 6.

The Bombs scared the crap out of Stalin so he called off the Invasion of Hokkaido.

So those bombs saved Japan and untold millions of human lives. Okinawa was a bloodbath.

Hiroshima was a great day.

Think about it - take all the time you like.

Frank wrote on Aug 8^th, 2022 at 9:48pm:

Bobby. wrote on Aug 7th, 2022 at 12:24pm: Truman didn't have to drop those 2 bombs. Japan was already defeated - the Yanks didn't need to invade Japan and lose more American lives. That was a clever piece of propaganda that the world swallowed. The dropping of the 2 atomic bombs was a disgrace to the world and showed the criminal threat that we have all lived under ever since. This is August the 6th - Hiroshima day - a day of shame. Silly nonsense.

I backed it up with this:



Was There a Diplomatic Alternative?
The Atomic Bombing and Japan's Surrender


October 15, 2021.


One day after the atomic bombing of Hiroshima, General MacArthur’s pilot, Weldon E. Rhoades, noted in his diary: “General MacArthur definitely is appalled and depressed by this ‘Frankenstein’ monster. I had a long talk with him today, necessitated by the impending trip to Okinawa.”4

Admiral Halsey, Commander of the U.S. Third Fleet, testified before Congress in September 1949, “I believe that bombing – especially atomic bombing – of civilians, is morally indefensible. . . . I know that the extermination theory has no place in a properly conducted war.”5

Admiral Leahy, Truman’s chief military advisor, wrote in his memoirs: “It is my opinion that the use of this barbarous weapon at Hiroshima and Nagasaki was of no material assistance in our war against Japan. The Japanese were already defeated and ready to surrender because of the effective sea blockade and the successful bombing with conventional weapons.”6

That the Japanese were on the verge of defeat was made clear to the president in a top-secret memorandum from Secretary of War Henry Stimson on July 2, 1945. Stimson noted that Japan “has no allies,” its “navy is nearly destroyed,” she is vulnerable to an economic blockade depriving her “of sufficient food and supplies for her population,” she is “terribly vulnerable to our concentrated air attack upon her crowded cities, industrial, and food resources,” she “has against her not only the Anglo-American forces but the rising forces of China and the ominous threat of Russia,” and the United States has “inexhaustible and untouched industrial resources to bring to bear against her diminishing potential.”

The Bombs scared the crap out of Stalin so he called off the Invasion of Hokkaido.

So those bombs saved Japan and untold millions of human lives. Okinawa was a bloodbath.

Hiroshima was a great day.

Think about it - take all the time you like.

You did not mention Stalin


During the Soviet-Japanese War in August 1945, the Soviet Union made plans to invade Hokkaido, the northernmost of Japan's four main Home Islands.

Opposition from the United States and doubts within the Soviet high command caused the plans to be cancelled before the invasion could begin.

Result: Cancelled on August 22, 1945
Date: Planned beginning August 24, 1945

Bobby. wrote on Aug 9^th, 2022 at 8:05am:

Frank wrote on Aug 8th, 2022 at 9:48pm: Bobby. wrote on Aug 7th, 2022 at 12:24pm: Truman didn't have to drop those 2 bombs. Japan was already defeated - the Yanks didn't need to invade Japan and lose more American lives. That was a clever piece of propaganda that the world swallowed. The dropping of the 2 atomic bombs was a disgrace to the world and showed the criminal threat that we have all lived under ever since. This is August the 6th - Hiroshima day - a day of shame. Silly nonsense. I backed it up with this: Was There a Diplomatic Alternative? The Atomic Bombing and Japan's Surrender October 15, 2021. One day after the atomic bombing of Hiroshima, General MacArthur’s pilot, Weldon E. Rhoades, noted in his diary: “General MacArthur definitely is appalled and depressed by this ‘Frankenstein’ monster. I had a long talk with him today, necessitated by the impending trip to Okinawa.”4 Admiral Halsey, Commander of the U.S. Third Fleet, testified before Congress in September 1949, “I believe that bombing – especially atomic bombing – of civilians, is morally indefensible. . . . I know that the extermination theory has no place in a properly conducted war.”5 Admiral Leahy, Truman’s chief military advisor, wrote in his memoirs: “It is my opinion that the use of this barbarous weapon at Hiroshima and Nagasaki was of no material assistance in our war against Japan. The Japanese were already defeated and ready to surrender because of the effective sea blockade and the successful bombing with conventional weapons.”6 That the Japanese were on the verge of defeat was made clear to the president in a top-secret memorandum from Secretary of War Henry Stimson on July 2, 1945. Stimson noted that Japan “has no allies,” its “navy is nearly destroyed,” she is vulnerable to an economic blockade depriving her “of sufficient food and supplies for her population,” she is “terribly vulnerable to our concentrated air attack upon her crowded cities, industrial, and food resources,” she “has against her not only the Anglo-American forces but the rising forces of China and the ominous threat of Russia,” and the United States has “inexhaustible and untouched industrial resources to bring to bear against her diminishing potential.”

The use of these bombs was a disgrace to the world?  OK Bobby, here is a question for you. Would you trade your life to bring back the dead of Hiroshima and Nagasaki? A simple yes or no.

Belgarion wrote on Aug 9^th, 2022 at 9:14am:

The use of these bombs was a disgrace to the world?  OK Bobby, here is a question for you. Would you trade your life to bring back the dead of Hiroshima and Nagasaki? A simple yes or no.

What a stupid question.

Would you trade your life to bring back Elvis?

Did Hiroshima Save Japan From Soviet Occupation?
Stalin had planned to seize a major Japanese island. When Truman refused, Stalin blinked. Why?

Japan’s second-largest island, roughly the size of Maine, Hokkaido was of huge strategic significance. Joseph Stalin’s possession of the island would turn the vast Sea of Okhotsk into a Soviet lake, and ease the projection of Soviet naval power into the Pacific. Stalin had his eyes on a big prize. The detailed Soviet operational plans, published Wednesday by the Wilson Center in the full English translation for the first time, show that all the pieces had been put in place for a swift Soviet occupation.

On Aug. 16 the Soviet leader asked U.S. President Harry S. Truman to acquiesce in this “modest wish” or risk offending “Russian public opinion.” Although just months earlier, the U.S. War Department had considered letting the Soviets occupy Hokkaido and even part of Honshu, Japan’s largest island, Hiroshima had clearly changed things for Truman. Possession of a mighty new weapon gave Truman the confidence to set the terms of his relationship with Stalin. On Aug. 18, Truman bluntly turned Uncle Joe down. Stalin procrastinated, weighing the pros and cons. Two days before the planned Aug. 24 landing on Hokkaido, he called off the operation.

https://foreignpolicy.com/2015/08/05/stalin_japan_hiroshima_occupation_hokkaido/

Bobby. wrote on Aug 9^th, 2022 at 9:21am:

Belgarion wrote on Aug 9th, 2022 at 9:14am: The use of these bombs was a disgrace to the world?  OK Bobby, here is a question for you. Would you trade your life to bring back the dead of Hiroshima and Nagasaki? A simple yes or no. What a stupid question. Would you trade your life to bring back Elvis?

Answer the question Bobby.

Belgarion wrote on Aug 9^th, 2022 at 9:29am:

Bobby. wrote on Aug 9th, 2022 at 9:21am: Belgarion wrote on Aug 9th, 2022 at 9:14am: The use of these bombs was a disgrace to the world?  OK Bobby, here is a question for you. Would you trade your life to bring back the dead of Hiroshima and Nagasaki? A simple yes or no. What a stupid question. Would you trade your life to bring back Elvis? Answer the question Bobby.

You are employing a Straw man fallacy.

A straw man is a form of argument and an informal fallacy of having the impression of refuting an argument, whereas the real subject of the argument was not addressed or refuted, but instead replaced with a false one.

If not for those bombs millions - untold millions would have died

what word do you not understand


Possession of a mighty new weapon gave Truman the confidence to set the terms of his relationship with Stalin. On Aug. 18, Truman bluntly turned Uncle Joe down. Stalin procrastinated, weighing the pros and cons. Two days before the planned Aug. 24 landing on Hokkaido, he called off the operation.

Boris wrote on Aug 9^th, 2022 at 9:33am:

If not for those bombs millions - untold millions would have died what word do you not understand Possession of a mighty new weapon gave Truman the confidence to set the terms of his relationship with Stalin. On Aug. 18, Truman bluntly turned Uncle Joe down. Stalin procrastinated, weighing the pros and cons. Two days before the planned Aug. 24 landing on Hokkaido, he called off the operation.

Yes - it is possible to rationalise the mass murder of women and children.

flip

So Stalin invading Hokkaido with all those millions of deaths would be a good thing?

Possession of a mighty new weapon gave Truman the confidence to set the terms of his relationship with Stalin. On Aug. 18, Truman bluntly turned Uncle Joe down. Stalin procrastinated, weighing the pros and cons. Two days before the planned Aug. 24 landing on Hokkaido, he called off the operation.

So Stalin was wonderful?

The USSR was wonderful?

Ever read Solzhenitsyn?

Still, instead of ignoring Truman, Stalin acquiesced. History of Japan took a different turn from the history of Korea. The Japanese did not have to endure the pleasures of Soviet occupation.

Bobby. wrote on Aug 9^th, 2022 at 9:31am:

Belgarion wrote on Aug 9th, 2022 at 9:29am: Bobby. wrote on Aug 9th, 2022 at 9:21am: Belgarion wrote on Aug 9th, 2022 at 9:14am: The use of these bombs was a disgrace to the world?  OK Bobby, here is a question for you. Would you trade your life to bring back the dead of Hiroshima and Nagasaki? A simple yes or no. What a stupid question. Would you trade your life to bring back Elvis? Answer the question Bobby. You are employing a Straw man fallacy. A straw man is a form of argument and an informal fallacy of having the impression of refuting an argument, whereas the real subject of the argument was not addressed or refuted, but instead replaced with a false one.

You are desperately avoiding answering the question. Would you be willing to give your life to save the dead of Hiroshima and Nagasaki?

Belgarion wrote on Aug 8^th, 2022 at 9:25pm:

Bobby. wrote on Aug 8th, 2022 at 6:35pm: freediver wrote on Aug 8th, 2022 at 6:17pm: Yes, but is it your own speculation? Yes - I'm not the only one FD. You need to read up on the subject - I can help you: https://apjjf.org/2021/20/Kuzmarov-Peace.html Was There a Diplomatic Alternative? The Atomic Bombing and Japan's Surrender October 15, 2021. One day after the atomic bombing of Hiroshima, General MacArthur’s pilot, Weldon E. Rhoades, noted in his diary: “General MacArthur definitely is appalled and depressed by this ‘Frankenstein’ monster. I had a long talk with him today, necessitated by the impending trip to Okinawa.”4 Admiral Halsey, Commander of the U.S. Third Fleet, testified before Congress in September 1949, “I believe that bombing – especially atomic bombing – of civilians, is morally indefensible. . . . I know that the extermination theory has no place in a properly conducted war.”5 Admiral Leahy, Truman’s chief military advisor, wrote in his memoirs: “It is my opinion that the use of this barbarous weapon at Hiroshima and Nagasaki was of no material assistance in our war against Japan. The Japanese were already defeated and ready to surrender because of the effective sea blockade and the successful bombing with conventional weapons.”6 That the Japanese were on the verge of defeat was made clear to the president in a top-secret memorandum from Secretary of War Henry Stimson on July 2, 1945. Stimson noted that Japan “has no allies,” its “navy is nearly destroyed,” she is vulnerable to an economic blockade depriving her “of sufficient food and supplies for her population,” she is “terribly vulnerable to our concentrated air attack upon her crowded cities, industrial, and food resources,” she “has against her not only the Anglo-American forces but the rising forces of China and the ominous threat of Russia,” and the United States has “inexhaustible and untouched industrial resources to bring to bear against her diminishing potential.” Bobby, you are sadly mistaken. MacArthur was an egotist who would willingly sacrifice others for his own ends and was angry that the use of nuclear weapons had robbed him of the chance to showcase his 'leadership' in an invasion of the home islands.  Had such an invasion gone ahead the Japanese people were prepared to resist until the death. Literally. There were measures in place to execute all POWs and civilian internees in Japanese hands. Not only in Japan itself but in all other ares still held by  Japanese forces. There was to be total mobilisation of the entire population - every man woman and child. Look at this picture https://i2.wp.com/militaryhistorynow.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/1024px-Kokumin_Giyutai.jpg?resize=560%2C409&ssl=1 or this one https://i.pinimg.com/originals/b7/54/f3/b754f36331125481cf10c91fa92632bf.jpg This shows how committed the Japanese people were. They did not believe they were defeated and as I noted earlier, the casualties on both sides would have been horrendous. All these lives were saved by the use of nuclear weapons. Your  'war crime' assertion is ridiculous.

May I interject here for a moment please (my hubby is a Foxtel History addict and as his wife my place is next to him .. on this comfy sofa watching whatever he watches).

We've listened to that many documentaries over the use of the atomic bomb and whether it was necessary/warranted esp so late in the war yadda yadda yadda.

There are 2 schools of thought over this. 1 represents your view Belgarian; the other represents Bobby's view.

There is an emerging 3rd view. And that's this : irrespective of where Japan was at in 1945 ... the war had drained an entire globe of millions of people, damaged land and other natural resources and devastated economies that everyone everywhere was physically/psychologically/emotionally/financially EXHAUSTED.

Meantime Japan's soldiers were still operating as indoctrinated robots fully controlled by their Emperor /god. They were ordered to fight to the last man and that was the only order they were prepared to listen to.

And this is where the USA comes in: Having grabbed a few gifted scientists from the now defeated Germany ... they were more than ready to use this weapon in order to FINALLY bring an end to a war which started in 1939. So by 1945.... a wonderful 2 pronged opportunity arose for the US. The US could finally get back at Japan for Pearl Harbour (that reason wasn't talked about much of course) WHILE testing out what an atomic bomb could actually do because no one REALLY knew (that reason was also not talked about much).

Anyway the day came where the marketing of the idea of the necessity for using the atomic bomb was finally approved. Essentially ALL sides were go. Which sides? These ones : If you weren't sick of war and its death and destruction you were sick of Japan's robot like soldiers who fully intended to continue fighting til the last man. I should mention here that "man" would have included boys.

Others were keen for revenge for Pearl Harbour and others were keen to see what emerging atomic technology could do to a relentless enemy hell bent on continuing to save their emperor's face and reputation.

Irrespective of which side you chose/identified with, you were party to the decision to go ahead.

Bobby?

One other thing which ought to be remembered is this :

Here we are today and if you're like me then you and I were not even born when all this took place.

In fact were any of you born? If so how old were you? Probably mere babies or toddlers.

We can't really understand the full scope of never ending trauma which men, women and children across the globe were at. All we can rely on is what is on record and what we have heard from parents and grandparents who are sadly dying off and can no longer offer their personal testimony of the next level exhaustion and grief they suffered.

The desperation to stop a global war after 6 long arduous years was a priority for everyone except Japan who had become the only identifiable rogue state left in 1945 and who effectively stood in the way of peace.

Whatever we say today here in this topic is really nothing more than the stuff of speculation.

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 9^th, 2022 at 12:14pm:

Whatever we say today here in this topic is really nothing more than the stuff of speculation.

It doesn't concern you Lisa, only the invasion of Greece should concern you

The bombing of Japan concerned only the Pacific region

From Wikipedia:


Quote:

Historians have generally considered it unlikely that an invasion of Hokkaido would have succeeded. Factors include the small number of Soviet transport ships, the small number of Soviet ground forces planned for the invasion, and the availability of Japanese air power including kamikaze planes to contest a Soviet landing. Soviet forces suffered heavy losses in the Battle of Shumshu during the invasion of the Kuril Islands, and historians foresaw similar problems plaguing an invasion of Hokkaido.[1][12] Historian Dennis Giangreco believes that the Japanese forces would have fiercely fought back against an attack after their country had surrendered, and the small, hastily-assembled Soviet forces would have been unable to hold out against them. Because the Soviets thought the Japanese would not contest a landing after they had already surrendered, they assembled a relatively small force of two divisions, much smaller than the four field armies, totaling about 12 divisions, which Marshal Georgy Zhukov estimated would be necessary for a full-scale conquest.[1]: 155–156  However, after the Japanese fiercely defended Shumshu three days after the surrender, the Soviets were forced to reconsider this assumption.[1]: 158  Richard B. Frank, however, believes that despite serious Soviet deficiencies in shipping capacity and air cover, the Soviets could have succeeded because Japanese defenses were concentrated in the south to face the Americans, rather than the north to face the Soviets.[12]

[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proposed_Soviet_invasion_of_Hokkaido]Source[/url]

Bias_2012 wrote on Aug 9^th, 2022 at 12:45pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 9th, 2022 at 12:14pm: Whatever we say today here in this topic is really nothing more than the stuff of speculation. It doesn't concern you Lisa, only the invasion of Greece should concern you The bombing of Japan concerned only the Pacific region

Excuse me! My ex husband's dad fought in the Pacific! He lied about his age so he could be accepted and all he desired was to be with his 2 older brothers (all returned alive but seriously injured). My ex husband's dad never got to see his son married. Nor did he get the chance to meet his only grandson (my eldest boy).

And my ex husband's grandpa was an Anzac. I still have all their medals etc here. Even their uniform. Everything has been carefully stored. My eldest son used to wear their medals on Anzac Day too when he was little as he marched FOR his grandpa and great grandpa.

So bottom line : Just because I'm a full blooded European woman that doesn't necessarily mean that I should only concern myself with matters concerning Italy and Greece. I'm born n bed in Australia and 2 of my children have Anzac links through their dad.

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 9^th, 2022 at 1:59pm:

Bias_2012 wrote on Aug 9th, 2022 at 12:45pm: Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 9th, 2022 at 12:14pm: Whatever we say today here in this topic is really nothing more than the stuff of speculation. It doesn't concern you Lisa, only the invasion of Greece should concern you The bombing of Japan concerned only the Pacific region Excuse me! My ex husband's dad fought in the Pacific! He lied about his age so he could be accepted and all he desired was to be with his 2 older brothers (all returned alive but seriously injured). My ex husband's dad never got to see his son married. Nor did he get the chance to meet his only grandson (my eldest boy). And my ex husband's grandpa was an Anzac. I still have all their medals etc here. Even their uniform. Everything has been carefully stored. My eldest son used to wear their medals on Anzac Day too when he was little as he marched FOR his grandpa and great grandpa. So bottom line : Just because I'm a full blooded European woman that doesn't necessarily mean that I should only concern myself with matters concerning Italy and Greece. I'm born n bed in Australia and 2 of my children have Anzac links through their dad.

Fine - but we are free to speculate as much as we like

Bias_2012 wrote on Aug 9^th, 2022 at 2:31pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 9th, 2022 at 1:59pm: Bias_2012 wrote on Aug 9th, 2022 at 12:45pm: Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 9th, 2022 at 12:14pm: Whatever we say today here in this topic is really nothing more than the stuff of speculation. It doesn't concern you Lisa, only the invasion of Greece should concern you The bombing of Japan concerned only the Pacific region Excuse me! My ex husband's dad fought in the Pacific! He lied about his age so he could be accepted and all he desired was to be with his 2 older brothers (all returned alive but seriously injured). My ex husband's dad never got to see his son married. Nor did he get the chance to meet his only grandson (my eldest boy). And my ex husband's grandpa was an Anzac. I still have all their medals etc here. Even their uniform. Everything has been carefully stored. My eldest son used to wear their medals on Anzac Day too when he was little as he marched FOR his grandpa and great grandpa. So bottom line : Just because I'm a full blooded European woman that doesn't necessarily mean that I should only concern myself with matters concerning Italy and Greece. I'm born n bed in Australia and 2 of my children have Anzac links through their dad. Fine - but we are free to speculate as much as we like

Absolutely! In talking we share what we know or believe and learn even more. I wasn't having a go...I was merely pointing out that it would be difficult for us to truly understand what happened because we weren't there.

(And incidentally that is why I'm fascinated with the idea of time travel).

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 9^th, 2022 at 12:01pm:

May I interject here for a moment please (my hubby is a Foxtel History addict and as his wife my place is next to him .. on this comfy sofa watching whatever he watches). We've listened to that many documentaries over the use of the atomic bomb and whether it was necessary/warranted esp so late in the war yadda yadda yadda. There are 2 schools of thought over this. 1 represents your view Belgarian; the other represents Bobby's view. There is an emerging 3rd view. And that's this : irrespective of where Japan was at in 1945 ... the war had drained an entire globe of millions of people, damaged land and other natural resources and devastated economies that everyone everywhere was physically/psychologically/emotionally/financially EXHAUSTED. Meantime Japan's soldiers were still operating as indoctrinated robots fully controlled by their Emperor /god. They were ordered to fight to the last man and that was the only order they were prepared to listen to. And this is where the USA comes in: Having grabbed a few gifted scientists from the now defeated Germany ... they were more than ready to use this weapon in order to FINALLY bring an end to a war which started in 1939. So by 1945.... a wonderful 2 pronged opportunity arose for the US. The US could finally get back at Japan for Pearl Harbour (that reason wasn't talked about much of course) WHILE testing out what an atomic bomb could actually do because no one REALLY knew (that reason was also not talked about much). Anyway the day came where the marketing of the idea of the necessity for using the atomic bomb was finally approved. Essentially ALL sides were go. Which sides? These ones : If you weren't sick of war and its death and destruction you were sick of Japan's robot like soldiers who fully intended to continue fighting til the last man. I should mention here that "man" would have included boys. Others were keen for revenge for Pearl Harbour and others were keen to see what emerging atomic technology could do to a relentless enemy hell bent on continuing to save their emperor's face and reputation. Irrespective of which side you chose

You are correct Lisa in that people were sick of the war and wanted it over and done with. Imagine the reaction after the costly invasion of the home islands when the US public (and the Allies) found out that Truman had a weapon that could have ended the war years earlier and saved countless lives, yet did not use it.  He would rightly be villified by history. 

Of course the were those who did want to use it simply to see what would happen, and those who only wanted revenge, however this does not detract from the fact that the use of these weapons was the right thing to do. 

Yep agreed Belgarian.

I've been thinking here ... has anyone on OzPol ever served in the armed forces ?

If so it would be great to hear from a veteran's perspective. Just a thought.

The Japanese did not surrender because of the Bombs

They surrendered because the USSR red army was about to invade and rape all their women.

This would change their sacred genetics so they surrendered to the US

Boris wrote on Aug 10^th, 2022 at 10:20am:

The Japanese did not surrender because of the Bombs They surrendered because the USSR red army was about to invade and rape all their women. This would change their sacred genetics so they surrendered to the US

Nope

Let's say they didn't surrender when they did, but surrendered some time later - then how could they sustain two or three more atom bombs? They wouldn't have been dropped out in the countryside, they would have been for strategic targets to make it impossible for the Japs to continue their shenanigans. A half a million more Japs would have perished. Inbred Hirohito knew this ... after the fact, in other words, it was not fantasy, two bombs had been dropped already and they were a clear demonstration of how destructive they actually could be ... one might have got him, he surrendered before it did

He may have thought that Hiroshima was a one off, and didn't expect the second one on Nagasaki, after which, he would have guessed there was a "production-line" making A bombs, and more might be dropped. It's a known fact he surrendered after the second one, not the first one ... and there was more coming his way if Japan didn't surrender. Truman was willing to allow more to be dropped, he just wanted the military to advise him first

The Soviets were more interested in Hokkaido island, which Truman refused to let them occupy ... and because the US had A bombs and willing to use them, the US had the upper hand. It was the A bombs that prevented the Soviets invading. The Soviets played a subordinate role in Japan after Hiroshima and Nagasaki



   

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 9^th, 2022 at 3:03pm:

Yep agreed Belgarian. I've been thinking here ... has anyone on OzPol ever served in the armed forces ? If so it would be great to hear from a veteran's perspective. Just a thought.

I have served, as you well know, Lisa.  So has Belgarion and Grappler.  I have served with soldiers who joined up just after WWII ended.  They served in BCOFJ - British Occupation Forces Japan.  They actually visited the remains of Hiroshima.  They cleaned up the remains of the Japanese resistance forces in Japan.  They had little time for the revisionist viewpoint. They knew that it would have been them or us.   They were under no illusions at all. ::) ::)

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 9^th, 2022 at 3:03pm:

Yep agreed Belgarian. I've been thinking here ... has anyone on OzPol ever served in the armed forces ? If so it would be great to hear from a veteran's perspective. Just a thought.

We'd have to be 90 years old Lisa

I asked my Dad once about the A bomb ... he just said he couldn't believe how big the explosion it was (reducing a whole city to rubble)

Bias_2012 wrote on Aug 10^th, 2022 at 1:12pm:

Boris wrote on Aug 10th, 2022 at 10:20am: The Japanese did not surrender because of the Bombs They surrendered because the USSR red army was about to invade and rape all their women. This would change their sacred genetics so they surrendered to the US Nope Let's say they didn't surrender when they did, but surrendered some time later - then how could they sustain two or three more atom bombs? They wouldn't have been dropped out in the countryside, they would have been for strategic targets to make it impossible for the Japs to continue their shenanigans. A half a million more Japs would have perished. Inbred Hirohito knew this ... after the fact, in other words, it was not fantasy, two bombs had been dropped already and they were a clear demonstration of how destructive they actually could be ... one might have got him, he surrendered before it did He may have thought that Hiroshima was a one off, and didn't expect the second one on Nagasaki, after which, he would have guessed there was a "production-line" making A bombs, and more might be dropped. It's a known fact he surrendered after the second one, not the first one ... and there was more coming his way if Japan didn't surrender. Truman was willing to allow more to be dropped, he just wanted the military to advise him first The Soviets were more interested in Hokkaido island, which Truman refused to let them occupy ... and because the US had A bombs and willing to use them, the US had the upper hand. It was the A bombs that prevented the Soviets invading. The Soviets played a subordinate role in Japan after Hiroshima and Nagasaki

Wrong

Boris wrote on Aug 10^th, 2022 at 1:32pm:

Bias_2012 wrote on Aug 10th, 2022 at 1:12pm: Boris wrote on Aug 10th, 2022 at 10:20am: The Japanese did not surrender because of the Bombs They surrendered because the USSR red army was about to invade and rape all their women. This would change their sacred genetics so they surrendered to the US Nope Let's say they didn't surrender when they did, but surrendered some time later - then how could they sustain two or three more atom bombs? They wouldn't have been dropped out in the countryside, they would have been for strategic targets to make it impossible for the Japs to continue their shenanigans. A half a million more Japs would have perished. Inbred Hirohito knew this ... after the fact, in other words, it was not fantasy, two bombs had been dropped already and they were a clear demonstration of how destructive they actually could be ... one might have got him, he surrendered before it did He may have thought that Hiroshima was a one off, and didn't expect the second one on Nagasaki, after which, he would have guessed there was a "production-line" making A bombs, and more might be dropped. It's a known fact he surrendered after the second one, not the first one ... and there was more coming his way if Japan didn't surrender. Truman was willing to allow more to be dropped, he just wanted the military to advise him first The Soviets were more interested in Hokkaido island, which Truman refused to let them occupy ... and because the US had A bombs and willing to use them, the US had the upper hand. It was the A bombs that prevented the Soviets invading. The Soviets played a subordinate role in Japan after Hiroshima and Nagasaki     Wrong

No it's not

Yes, it is.

Boris wrote on Aug 10^th, 2022 at 2:14pm:

Yes, it is.

No it's not wrong

Hirohito called the bomb a "terrible weapon" ... and Stalin said "we must have one too", so the Soviets concentrated on that, and Communism for Eastern Europe

MacArthur and Truman would never have put up with Soviet troops running amok in Japan, even if they got there first. There was the threat of more A bombs, radiation and disease. Hirohito was wise to surrender when he did, before any more A bombs fell on his head

The fact is Japanese officers and embassy staff were in Germany as the Soviets - mixed raced troops from all over the USSR not just Russians - raped their way through Germany.

The Soviets used rape as a weapon of war as did the Japanese. The Soviets took the Nazi invasion personally so they raped women as a way of adding

As a result millions of babies of mixed race were born in Germany as millions of German women were made pregnant from the rapes.

To both the Nazis and the Japanese this was anathema as they regard their races as being God-Like.

The Japanese knew the USSR were going to invade and rape Japanese women. They understood this would lead to millions of mixed race babies being born.

The Japanese to this day regard their race as sacred and do not tolerate mixed marriages or foreigners.

The Red army was going to invade Hokkaido where there were little or no Japanese troops because they were all in the South to meet the US and British troops from Okinawa.

The Invasion was on - and the Japanese knew they would lose to the Soviets and it would change their "Sacred Race" forever and they would rather surrender to the US than allow that to happen.

They Japanese honestly did not care about atomic bombs - it was a pretext as they preferred to say they were afraid of A-Bombs rather than Russian genitals.

I can honestly tell you the Japanese did not surrender because of the A-Bombs but because they feared the Soviets.

Believe it or not it is reality.

Read the Minutes from the Meetings of the Big Six - they did not care about the A-Bombs as they had lost 66 cities and two more were just 2 more.

All they talked about was the Soviets. The Soviets would have taken Hokkaido and raped women left right and centre. The US and British would not have invaded for weeks and weeks later.

By they it would have been too late.

Matty, Matty, you really like to believe in myths, don't you?  You're talking bullshit.  There is no evidence to support your claims - as per usual.   Oh, dearie, dearie, me.  Run along, you foolish man.   I am sure there some children you can scare with your tales.  Tsk, tsk, tsk... ::) ::)

You would not have the first clue - fool

Do you speak Japanese and Russian?


Nuclear weapons shocked Japan into surrendering at the end of World War II—except they didn't. Japan surrendered because the Soviet Union entered the war. Japanese leaders said the bomb forced them to surrender because it was less embarrassing to say they had been defeated by a miracle weapon.

Did Nuclear Weapons Cause Japan to Surrender?

Ward Wilson: Rethinking Nuclear Weapons
Recorded Jan 16, 2013

Ward Wilson, now the executive director at Realist Revolt, says that the Soviet declaration of war and not the Hiroshima nuclear bombing caused Japan to surrender at the end of World War II. An audience member then posits that the Soviets declared war because of Hiroshima.

https://www.carnegiecouncil.org/explore-engage/classroom-resources/short-expert-videos-and-flipped-classroom/010#:~:text=Nuclear%20weapons%20shocked%20Japan%20into,defeated%20by%20a%20miracle%20weapon.

THE RUSSIAN INTERVENTION
“The Hiroshima bomb did not make the Japanese ruling elite feel as though their backs were to the wall. It inflicted a serious body blow, but it was hardly a knock-out punch.”

So says eminent historian Tsuyoshi Hasegawa. He and other dissenting voices believe that the real reason Japan surrendered was down to something far less titanic and earth-shattering than the nuclear bombs. One man, it seems, played a far more important part. And that man was Soviet dictator Joseph Stalin.

Many people today don’t realise that, while the Soviets had been allied with Britain and the US in the fight against Hitler, they were not actually at war with Japan at the time of the Potsdam Declaration. The Soviet Union and Japan had in fact signed a neutrality pact back in 1941, which served both their interests nicely. The Soviets could focus on taking on the Nazis without worrying about being attacked on the other side by Japan, while the Japanese were free to concentrate on their brutal battles with the US.

Things only changed on 9 August, the very day of the second atomic attack on Nagasaki, when the Soviets suddenly broke the pact, mounting a massive invasion of Japan’s territories that decimated Japanese troops.

Hiroshima had happened days before, but it was only now that the Japanese leaders fell into a panic. As historian Tsuyoshi Hasegawa puts it, “The Soviet entry into the war played a much greater role than the atomic bombs in inducing Japan to surrender because it dashed any hope that Japan could terminate the war through Moscow's mediation.”

That’s the key point: the Japanese weren’t fighting to win. They knew they’d have to give in eventually, but they wanted to surrender on the most favourable terms, in a way that would preserve their internal power structure, save their military leaders from war crimes trials, and avoid being a puppet state of the Allies. Until 9 August, they held out hope that the Soviets, as a neutral party, could help them negotiate the best deal with the US. During one meeting in June of that year, top Japanese military commander Torashirō Kawabe couldn’t have been clearer: “The absolute maintenance of peace in our relations with the Soviet Union is imperative for the continuation of the war.”

As historian Terry Charman tells us, “The Soviet attack changed all that. The leadership in Tokyo realized they had no hope now.” In fact, the situation was now completely reversed, with the Japanese fearing a Communist invasion which would overturn their rigid, imperial hierarchy and transform their nation forever. Immediate surrender was the only option.

BUT WHAT ABOUT HIROSHIMA AND NAGASAKI?
Historian Ward Wilson, who vigorously disputes the significance of the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombs, says “It’s very hard to make people give up their myths.” Indeed, in the case of the nuclear attacks, it borders on blasphemy.

For so many decades, the moral justification of Hiroshima and Nagasaki has been passionately debated. The standard argument in favour of US President Truman’s decision to drop the bombs has always been that, by unleashing such devastating force, the president avoided an even more devastating ground war that might have gone for many more months, taking untold numbers of Allied lives.

Not only that, but Hiroshima and Nagasaki have taken on an almost religious significance in the world’s consciousness – both because of the huge loss of civilian lives, and because of how these attacks signalled the beginning of a new and terrifying era in world history.

And yet, it can convincingly be argued that Hiroshima and Nagasaki were not hugely important in the context of Japan in 1945. What many people forget is that huge swathes of the country had already been utterly obliterated by the most extensive bombing raids the world had ever seen. These were conventional bombs, but no less effective at slaughtering civilians.

Tokyo, for example, had been completely incinerated, with around 100,000 people killed. US bomber crews could smell charred flesh as they flew over the firestorms. Dozens of other Japanese cities had been flattened under the never-ending barrage. Yet, despite this nationwide inferno, surrender wasn’t forthcoming. One politician, Kijūrō Shidehara, echoed the general sentiment when he suggested their “unity and resolve would grow stronger”, and that it was important to endure the attacks in order to negotiate the best outcome, further along the line.

So when President Truman, hinting at the nuclear attacks to come, said that the Japanese could “expect a rain of ruin from the air” if they didn’t surrender, it wasn’t really much of a threat. There had already been a rain of ruin, and it hadn’t changed the Japanese game-plan. When Hiroshima happened, Japan realised a new kind of weapon had been unleashed, but the devastation was not significantly different to what they had seen in countless cities already. It’s only from our vantage point today that the mushroom clouds eclipse everything else.

RECLAIMING THE TRUTH
So if it really was the Soviet intervention that brought about the end of the war, why isn’t it more widely known? The fact is, the complicated period between the fall of Hitler and the fall of Japan haven’t received as much mass media attention as it deserves. While events like Dunkirk, the Battle of Britain, the D-Day landings, not to mention the controversial Allied attacks on Dresden, have all received plenty of media attention, the only thing most of us know about the endgame in Japan is that it saw the beginning of the nuclear age.

Even major events like annihilation of Tokyo in March 1945 are still not common knowledge, while the decisive Soviet invasion of 9 August is completely overshadowed by the Nagasaki attack that same day.

On top of that, when people think of the Soviet Union in World War Two, it’s not the Pacific theatre that comes to mind, but the savage skirmishes against Hitler’s forces, the massacres meted out by the SS in Russian towns and villages, the hellish confrontation in Stalingrad and the pivotal Nazi defeats that eventually turned the war against Hitler.

https://www.history.co.uk/shows/x-company/articles/why-did-japan-really-surrender-in-ww2

https://emojipedia-us.s3.dualstack.us-west-1.amazonaws.com/thumbs/160/whatsapp/238/yawning-face_1f971.png

Matty, Matty, fancy you quoting a Left-wing site.  Tsk, tsk, tsk...   ::) ::)

Bias_2012 wrote on Aug 10^th, 2022 at 1:20pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 9th, 2022 at 3:03pm: Yep agreed Belgarian. I've been thinking here ... has anyone on OzPol ever served in the armed forces ? If so it would be great to hear from a veteran's perspective. Just a thought. We'd have to be 90 years old Lisa I asked my Dad once about the A bomb ... he just said he couldn't believe how big the explosion it was (reducing a whole city to rubble)

I don't think anyone could believe what that atomic bomb was capable of. It was something nobody had ever experienced. A terrible thing to experience though. Was it necessary?

I'm standing here in 2022 and keep coming up with no. Then yes. Then no again. It's one of those questions.

Brian Ross wrote on Aug 10^th, 2022 at 1:19pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 9th, 2022 at 3:03pm: Yep agreed Belgarian. I've been thinking here ... has anyone on OzPol ever served in the armed forces ? If so it would be great to hear from a veteran's perspective. Just a thought. I have served, as you well know, Lisa.  So has Belgarion and Grappler.  I have served with soldiers who joined up just after WWII ended.  They served in BCOFJ - British Occupation Forces Japan.  They actually visited the remains of Hiroshima.  They cleaned up the remains of the Japanese resistance forces in Japan.  They had little time for the revisionist viewpoint. They knew that it would have been them or us.   They were under no illusions at all. ::) ::)

Interesting.

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 11^th, 2022 at 12:01am:

Bias_2012 wrote on Aug 10th, 2022 at 1:20pm: Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 9th, 2022 at 3:03pm: Yep agreed Belgarian. I've been thinking here ... has anyone on OzPol ever served in the armed forces ? If so it would be great to hear from a veteran's perspective. Just a thought. We'd have to be 90 years old Lisa I asked my Dad once about the A bomb ... he just said he couldn't believe how big the explosion it was (reducing a whole city to rubble) I don't think anyone could believe what that atomic bomb was capable of. It was something nobody had ever experienced. A terrible thing to experience though. Was it necessary? I'm standing here in 2022 and keep coming up with no. Then yes. Then no again. It's one of those questions.

It was the latest weapon of war Lisa. The Germans were working on it too, they had the heavy water plant in Norway, a movie was made about a real raid there ... "Heroes of Telemark"

Einstein wrote to Roosevelt in the early 40s telling him to get his finger out and build an a bomb before Germany did

All sorts of wonder weapons were being built and used, the A bomb was just another one, and well before it was used, Germany and Japan had declared "Total War", which meant even civilians were fair game

The Japs shelled North Sydney and bombed Darwin, killing civilians

Interestingly, the missile that killed terrorist leader Ayman al-Zawahiri the other day was a non-explosive missile, so it wouldn't affect anyone else. The missile had blades that cut into him. The building was left intact except for two broken windows

*

*

World War 3 should have plenty of BIG BOMBS pottering this planet like a Meteor Shower making craters, to satisfy you all.

You can argue the morality of that one, rather than act like Dinosaurs roaring over two lesser bombs that will be remembered as nothing more than tears in rain compared to what's coming up next.

YOU ARE ALL GOING TO DIE.