Greens release corporate tax policies to raise extra $4.5b per year   :)
WA Today.
November 13, 2021

Large multinational firms would pay up to $4.5 billion more in tax and reveal far more about their inner workings in the Australian market while penalising promoters of tax avoidance schemes under a suite of policies from the Greens.   

In a move that together with other policies the Greens admit would increase the tax take on large businesses and high wealth individuals by $391 billion over the coming decade, party leader Adam Bandt will on Saturday declare the “theft” of money by multinationals from Australian taxpayers has to stop.

Greens leader Adam Bandt will announce a series of policies closing loopholes for corporate tax minimisation.


Both major parties have targeted multinational tax in their policies over the past decade following revelations at the time of the global financial crisis of mass avoidance and in some cases evasion of corporate tax.

It is expected to form a part of the efforts of both Labor and the Coalition to repair the budget, which is forecast to show a deficit of more than $100 billion this year. Gross government debt on Friday reached a new record of $857 billion.

In a speech to the Greens national conference, Mr Bandt will outline a string of measures he says will block the ways multinational businesses avoid paying Australian company tax.   :)


Tax reform
‘The hardest thing you can do’: Why there’s little progress on tax reform
The measures, costed by the independent Parliamentary Budget Office, would reap an additional $4.5 billion in revenue by 2031-32.

“Right now, we’re all being ripped off by multinational corporations who hide their profits in tax havens, shell companies and use accounting tricks to get away with paying their fair share of tax,” he will say.

“We must close the loopholes and stop the cash train departing our country. The tax law might be complicated, but the morality is pretty simple. We’re being robbed and we need to get this cash back.”



Under the Greens’ plans, so-called significant global entities would be denied a tax deduction for royalties for use of intellectual property within Australia.

RELATED ARTICLE
Small businesses and individuals were responsible for most of the missing tax dollars.
Tax avoidance
Missing millions: Tax gap jumped to $33.5 billion ahead of pandemic
This measure, which the budget office warned could prompt companies to restructure their finances to avoid additional tax on royalties, could raise $544 million by 2024-25 and $2.2 billion over the next decade.

The Greens would also restrict access to thin capitalisation rules that affect companies whose assets are funded by a high level of debt. This change would bring in another $2.5 billion over the decade.

Businesses with assets of more than $25 million and revenue of more than $50 million would have to lodge financial reports, and fees to access company information through the Australian Securities and Investments Commission would be abolished.

Mr Bandt said tax deductions for a written-off debt would be abolished where the debtor is a related company.

People promoting tax avoidance schemes would face double the current penalties for their action. Individuals could face fines of $2 million while business could face fines of $11 million.


G20 summit
G20 endorses global corporate minimum tax at Rome summit
Combined with the Greens’ other policies around multinationals and individuals, the party’s policy agenda would raise $391 billion in additional revenue by 2031-32. Total company tax a year is worth about $100 billion.

Mr Bandt said the money would flow back to services.

“People would prefer to have free mental and dental health care rather than billionaire corporations sending massive profits to offshore shareholders,” he will say.

Yes good on the Australian Greens.  Think I will put a vote in for the greens at the next election.   :)   

Great!  . . . . So what is it again, that they are going to ACTUALLY do?

issuevoter wrote on Nov 13^th, 2021 at 12:54pm:

Great!  . . . . So what is it again, that they are going to ACTUALLY do?

Good point, unless the ALP are on board with these policies (if/when the ALP wins government), not much will change.

The next Federal election will be VERY interesting. If the Greens can't do well in a climate emergency, progressive politics is completely stuffed in this country.

Meanwhile I will be voting for the first MMT-literate party in Oz, namely, 'The New Liberals'. The name is a reference to the deficit-spending/low taxing  government of Sir Robert Menzies, which achieved continuous real full employment, ie, unemployment <2%, before the neoliberal, privatization era with its  fictitious figure used by economists these days (people considered "employed" if they work one hour or more in a fortnight). 

whiteknight wrote on Nov 13^th, 2021 at 12:29pm:

Yes good on the Australian Greens.  Think I will put a vote in for the greens at the next election.   :)

I bet you put several in

Swagman wrote on Nov 16^th, 2021 at 8:04am:

I bet you put several in

Does that pass for debate on OzPolitics?

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 13^th, 2021 at 3:07pm:

Meanwhile I will be voting for the first MMT-literate party in Oz, namely, 'The New Liberals'. The name is a reference to the deficit-spending/low taxing  government of Sir Robert Menzies, which achieved continuous real full employment, ie, unemployment <2%, before the neoliberal, privatization era with its  fictitious figure used by economists these days (people considered "employed" if they work one hour or more in a fortnight).

They are ratbags like the Greens.
Their policy on the national anthem:

National Anthem
Retention of current tune
New inclusive lyrics to reflect diverse and rich cultural heritage
We will continue with the current tune for the National Anthem, but introduce new lyrics which are more inclusive, and reflective of our diverse and rich cultural heritage.

The lyrics we would use would be the version written by Judith Durham (of Seekers fame) and Kutcha Edwards ©. The first two verses are as follows:

Australians let us stand as one, upon this sacred land
A new day dawns, we’re moving on to trust and understand.
Combine our ancient history and cultures everywhere,
To bond together for all time, advance Australia fair.
With joyful hearts then let us sing, advance Australia fair.

Australians let us all be one, with peace and harmony.
Our precious water, soil and sun, grant life for you and me.
Our land abounds in nature’s gifts to love, respect and share,
And honouring the Dreaming, advance Australia fair.
With joyful hearts then let us sing, advance Australia fair.

https://www.thenewliberals.net.au/policies/
Kitch and ratbaggery and zero poetic ear.

Pro illegal immigrant, high welfare party = a recipe for fragmented, balkanised, fractioys society.

He is a part of the "luminary" Great Reset believers. The Greentopia.

Frank wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2021 at 12:46pm:

They are ratbags like the Greens. Their policy on the national anthem: (.......) Kitch and ratbaggery and zero poetic ear.

Not surprised you went straight to THIS particular policy.

As for national flags and songs, I hate jingoism ('nough said); our broken world has far more important issues to deal with.


Quote:

Pro illegal immigrant, high welfare party = a recipe for fragmented, balkanised, fractioys society.

1.No, rather  just treatment for refugees; but of course your 'individual freedom' ideology prevents establishment of an international rules based system which would oversee prosperous development in all countries....so your (necessary) solution is to build walls and prisons, to keep 70 million refugees out, in our broken world.

2. "high welfare party"?  Wrong; in fact, the 'NO welfare party', because everyone who wants a job will have a job, GUARANTEED, a recipe for a harmonious, crime free, generous society.   

Hence I'm attracted to TNL's Job Guarantee as opposed to your charity (!!!) to support  2 million involuntary un- and underemployed Australians.

thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2021 at 2:56pm:

1.No, rather  just treatment for refugees; but of course your 'individual freedom' ideology prevents establishment of an international rules based system which would oversee prosperous development in all countries....so your (necessary) solution is to build walls and prisons, to keep 70 million refugees out, in our broken world.

But with worldwide MMT there would be no refugees. They would happily stay at home. ;)

Prince Chuckles is also a "luminary" of The Great Reset. Of course he will have to move off his land so the serfs can take over. ;)

lee wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2021 at 1:26pm:

He is a part of the "luminary" Great Reset believers. The Greentopia.

Interestingly I'm told the Greens actually understand MMT, but prefer not to broach the topic because mainstreamers from Philip Lowe down (including you) can rely on the ignorance of the general public who think the government's budget faces the same constraints as an individual citizen's household budget.

As Keynes wrote to an associate in 1943; "Abba Lerner's  argument is impeccable. But heaven help anyone who tries to put it across”.  (Abba Lerner was a forerunner of MMT)

Yes, the government-as-household-budget delusion is hard to shake off, even 70 years later....

lee wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2021 at 3:12pm:

But with worldwide MMT there would be no refugees. They would happily stay at home. ;)

Of course!  And?  In the meantime individual countries can wake up and put their own houses in order


Quote:

Prince Chuckles is also a "luminary" of The Great Reset. Of course he will have to move off his land so the serfs can take over. ;)

Well  monarchy is obsolete; and I think Charles could cope quite well with its demise, unlike all the conservative hangers -on.

thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2021 at 3:21pm:

lee wrote Today at 1:12pm: But with worldwide MMT there would be no refugees. They would happily stay at home. Wink Of course!  And?

So your "just treatment for refugees" is blown. Those already here would probably try to go home.


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2021 at 3:21pm:

Well  monarchy is obsolete; and I think Charles could cope quite well with its demise, unlike all the conservative hangers -on.

Chuckles without his landholdings has nothing.

thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2021 at 3:13pm:

Interestingly I'm told the Greens actually understand MMT, but prefer not to broach the topic because mainstreamers from Philip Lowe down (including you) can rely on the ignorance of the general public who think the government's budget faces the same constraints as an individual citizen's household budget.

Interesting that you, who don't actually understand MMT, would think that. ;)

"Governments don't need taxes, there is no inflation under MMT, governments do need taxes under MMT" ;)


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2021 at 3:13pm:

As Keynes wrote to an associate in 1943; "Abba Lerner's  argument is impeccable. But heaven help anyone who tries to put it across”.  (Abba Lerner was a forerunner of MMT)

You know there is a difference between a theoretical argument and a practical solution? ::)

lee wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2021 at 3:24pm:

So your "just treatment for refugees" is blown. Those already here would probably try to go home.

Oh dear... our broken world has 70 million refugees BECAUSE of  the current evil economic orthodoxy. That's why people try to get get to 1st world countries; even poverty level welfare in the 1st world - as disgusting as it is - is better than life in the 3rd world torn by war and poverty.


Quote:

Chuckles without his landholdings has nothing.

"The best things in life are free"  but you won't understand that, whereas Charles probably does.

thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 3^rd, 2021 at 4:55pm:

Oh dear... our broken world has 70 million refugees BECAUSE of  the current evil economic orthodoxy.

So dictators are the great evil? ;D ;D ;D ;D

But tell us of the good life in Venezuela. ;)


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 3^rd, 2021 at 4:55pm:

"The best things in life are free"  but you won't understand that, whereas Charles probably does.

Chuckles wouldn't. He has forever had a silver spoon. ;)

lee wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2021 at 3:29pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 2nd, 2021 at 3:13pm: Interesting that you, who don't actually understand MMT, would think that. "Governments don't need taxes, there is no inflation under MMT, governments do need taxes under MMT" ;) You have just forfeited the right to a decent reply, even allowing for your poor comprehension skills.  Especially since I have just looked at your reply #120 in the COP thread; namely: " It was your response to NO TAXES, now you want to change what you meant." Show us where "it was my response to no taxes", which of course is a bit of nonsense from you to avoid debating "what I meant"...which is spelled out clearly there. [quote]You know there is a difference between a theoretical argument and a practical solution? ::)

The one (goal based) precedes the other (in implementation), except in the closed conservative mind.

lee wrote on Dec 3^rd, 2021 at 4:58pm:

So dictators are the great evil?

No;   instinctive, irrational, self-interested (greedy) survival instincts masquerading as "freedom",  are the source of the evil in the world, if you want to know.  The solution is an international rules based system backed by a UNSC without veto. 


Quote:

But tell us of the good life in Venezuela. ;)

Who said anything about Venezuela.... oh, the hyper-inflation thingy.....never mind...that, along with the Weimar Republic  and Zimbabwe  are the first topics that economic illiterates go to, when discussing MMT. 


Quote:

Chuckles wouldn't. He has forever had a silver spoon. ;)

Nevertheless, Charles appreciates the finer things in life, loves the planet, and wants to get rid of the filthy fossil industry which is destroying it, whether by AGW or belching out poisonous filth into the atmosphere. 

thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 3^rd, 2021 at 5:32pm:

No;   instinctive, irrational, self-interested (greedy) survival instincts masquerading as "freedom",  are the source of the evil in the world, if you want to know.  The solution is an international rules based system backed by a UNSC without veto.

The UNSC only has  5 permanent members and 10 elected members. So in reality those 15 can control the world. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 3^rd, 2021 at 5:32pm:

Who said anything about Venezuela

I did petal.


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 3^rd, 2021 at 5:32pm:

oh, the hyper-inflation thingy.....never mind...that, along with the Weimar Republic  and Zimbabwe  are the first topics that economic illiterates go to, when discussing MMT.

And yet Venezuela is a lovely Marxist country that actually tried MMT. They cut their sales of fossil fuel , something you want. They did everything and it went so wrong. ;)


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 3^rd, 2021 at 5:32pm:

Nevertheless, Charles appreciates the finer things in life, loves the planet, and wants to get rid of the filthy fossil industry which is destroying it, whether by AGW or belching out poisonous filth into the atmosphere.

Chuckles loves flying too much. How did he get to Barbados again?Although he has converted his Aston Martin to run on cheap English wine and whey. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
.
It still generates CO2 in the burning but it is so GREEN.


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 3^rd, 2021 at 5:15pm:

Show us where "it was my response to no taxes", which of course is a bit of nonsense from you to avoid debating "what I meant"...which is spelled out clearly there.

do yo want me to repeat it here. OK.

I wrote "But how to do it with NO TAXES"

You responded -  "Hasn't it tweaked yet? A government with its own treasury and reserve bank can 'print' the stuff - debt free. (ie change the digits in the bank accounts of citizens, as desired by the government's chosen policies (eg, so locked-down workers can pay their essential bills)."

And that is the exchange on NO TAXES in its entirety.

Now you want it to mean yes there will be taxes.


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 3^rd, 2021 at 5:15pm:

The one (goal based) precedes the other (in implementation), except in the closed conservative mind.

It does precede. Now all you have to do is get it to work. Trying and failing works for you?

lee wrote on Dec 3^rd, 2021 at 7:30pm:

The UNSC only has  5 permanent members and 10 elected members. So in reality those 15 can control the world.

My concept of 'UNSC without veto' implies its reform, including addition of Japan and Germany (the largest economies after the US and China) for a council of 7 permanent members, and maybe India and Indonesia for a council of 9 members, advised by an ICJ.

...to establish a true international rules-based system in which war is delegitimized as a means of dispute settlement between nations.

(...beware the conservative mind....)


Quote:

And yet Venezuela is a lovely Marxist country that actually tried MMT. They cut their sales of fossil fuel , something you want. They did everything and it went so wrong.

'Marxist'  Chavez won a democratic election. His popular socialist program was funded by export income reliant on the then high global price of oil.  When the global oil price collapsed, Chavez was unable to fund his socialist policies.

If Chavez had been MMT-literate, he would have recognized  the the loss of state income and its causes, and dealt with the problem other than by attempting to print money to purchase goods which were no longer available for purchase  (imported food, medicines etc)  because the  loss of export income meant the state could no longer afford these essential imports,  hence the hyperinflation. Now...an MMT literate IMF could have assisted Venezuela with a managed transition from a 'one-trick' economy (dependent on the global oil price) to a more diverse economy, including eg, creation of import  substitution industry etc.
But in our dog eat dog world....


Quote:

Chuckles loves flying too much. How did he get to Barbados again?Although he has converted his Aston Martin to run on cheap English wine and whey.

Aircraft will be among the last mode of transport  to go green; meanwhile  countries aren't ditching the monarchy (going republican)  every week.


Quote:

do yo want me to repeat it here. OK. I wrote "But how to do it with NO TAXES" You responded -  "Hasn't it tweaked yet? A government with its own treasury and reserve bank can 'print' the stuff - debt free. (ie change the digits in the bank accounts of citizens, as desired by the government's chosen policies (eg, so locked-down workers can pay their essential bills)." And that is the exchange on NO TAXES in its entirety.

No, not in its entirety. That quote was in relation to my point re government funding in a pandemic enforced lock-down, to illustrate the insanity of forcing the currency issuer to tax or borrow from the private sector, to keep locked-down workers alive, when there is no  permanent  loss of the economy's productive capacity, which is available for reactivation after the lock-down is lifted.
I accept your admission of misunderstanding the point,  in this case.


Quote:

Now you want it to mean yes there will be taxes.

To repeat: A currency-issuer doesn't need to tax in order to spend, you should know that by now. Taxes may be required for other purposes, but the currency-issuer doesn't need taxes in order to spend. Apparently you think any spending of money created by the currency-issuer and spent by the currency issuer will create inflation...you are wrong. The inflation constraint for a currency-issuer is availability of resources, not the money supply

Still want to deny what my position has been all along?


Quote:

It does precede. Now all you have to do is get it to work. Trying and failing works for you?

The slavery abolitionists faced the same problem of conservative self-interest and inertia...and won, eventually. That's what works for me.

The Greens should put their Bongs down they're never going to be in a position to implement anything.

Baronvonrort wrote on Dec 4^th, 2021 at 1:20pm:

The Greens should put their Bongs down they're never going to be in a position to implement anything.

The cross-bench independents, in combination with the Greens, might well be in a position  to determine policy after next federal election, because  both the major parties are on the nose with the electorate.

thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 4^th, 2021 at 12:35pm:

My concept of 'UNSC without veto' implies its reform, including addition of Japan and Germany (the largest economies after the US and China) for a council of 7 permanent members, and maybe India and Indonesia for a council of 9 members, advised by an ICJ.

So 16 can control the world. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 4^th, 2021 at 12:35pm:

'Marxist'  Chavez won a democratic election. His popular socialist program was funded by export income reliant on the then high global price of oil.  When the global oil price collapsed, Chavez was unable to fund his socialist policies.

That is why Chavez turned to China, to fund his spending.. Maduro also continued to overspend after oil prices dropped.

"As Chávez's successor Nicolás Maduro began to increase domestic spending after the oil price collapse, high inflation, currency controls, an unfriendly environment with private businesses, as well as the risk of default, prevented the entrance of stronger foreign currencies into Venezuela.[5] Previously, the Chávez government turned to China to fund its overspending on social programs.[5] Despite warnings near the beginning of Chávez's tenure in the early 2000s,[1] his government continuously overspent in social spending and did not save enough money for any future economic turmoil, which Venezuela faced shortly before and after his death.[2"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_policy_of_the_Hugo_Ch%C3%A1vez_administration


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 4^th, 2021 at 12:35pm:

Aircraft will be among the last mode of transport  to go green; meanwhile  countries aren't ditching the monarchy (going republican)  every week.

Ah yes. Airships will be back in vogue. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 4^th, 2021 at 12:35pm:

No, not in its entirety. That quote was in relation to my point re government funding in a pandemic enforced lock-down, to illustrate the insanity of forcing the currency issuer to tax or borrow from the private sector, to keep locked-down workers alive, when there is no  permanent  loss of the economy's productive capacity, which is available for reactivation after the lock-down is lifted. I accept your admission of misunderstanding the point,  in this case.

In its entirety petal.


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 4^th, 2021 at 12:35pm:

A currency-issuer doesn't need to tax in order to spend,

That from 1247 my time yesterday. Oh dear the NO TAXES was from 19th November.
thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 4^th, 2021 at 12:35pm:

The slavery abolitionists faced the same problem of conservative self-interest and inertia...and won, eventually.

And yet they haven't. It is ongoing. Ask the UN. ;)

The Greens blokes are all weedy, yappy beta gits, attracting all the Greens women who are shrill, bossy, damaged.

thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 4^th, 2021 at 12:35pm:

'Marxist'  Chavez won a democratic election. His popular socialist program was funded by export income reliant on the then high global price of oil.  When the global oil price collapsed, Chavez was unable to fund his socialist policies. If Chavez had been MMT-literate, he would have recognized  the the loss of state income and its causes, and dealt with the problem other than by attempting to print money to purchase goods which were no longer available for purchase  (imported food, medicines etc)  because the  loss of export income meant the state could no longer afford these essential imports,  hence the hyperinflation. Now...an MMT literate IMF could have assisted Venezuela with a managed transition from a 'one-trick' economy (dependent on the global oil price) to a more diverse economy, including eg, creation of import  substitution industry etc. But in our dog eat dog world....

:D :D :D

Classic pig on ice.

"If only the world bailed out socialist idiots who fccd up at every turn!"

The MMT in a nutshell - gissa yer money!

And of course they sacked the foreign oil engineers and put the Generals in place. Way to shoot yourself in the foot.

Frank wrote on Dec 4^th, 2021 at 7:37pm:

Classic pig on ice. "If only the world bailed out socialist idiots who fccd up at every turn!" The MMT in a nutshell - gissa yer money!

Classic conservative "sovereignty of greedy individuals ", 'survival of the fittest' ideology.

Conservatism - in direct opposition to its name -  will destroy the world, either quickly in a nuclear war, or slowly via unregulated free market capitalism.

Meanwhile the problem of 70 million refugees from war and failed capitalist states need attention.

lee wrote on Dec 4^th, 2021 at 3:04pm:

So 16 can control the world.

No.  7 or 9 permanent members, taking advice from an International Court of Justice.  Note the number: the majority vote carries the day...which is the basis of 'rule of law'. 

Of course you,  true to the sovereignty of the individual, survival of the fittest ideology, want YOUR  opinion to "control  the world"....whereas I am willing to submit to rule of law in my own nation; and submit to international law involving relations with other nations.


Quote:

That is why Chavez turned to China, to fund his spending.. Maduro also continued to overspend after oil prices dropped.

Yes, because the IMF, the institution which should have dealt with problems arising from oil price instability - not Venezuela's  fault - is an American profit-seeking stooge. The world doesn't have an effective international assistance mechanism, just as the world doesn't have an effective international rules based system...because of the  delusional "freedom "values-based " BS of the West. 

In fact the US rejected Keynes proposal for a new global financial system post WW2 (see Keynes' 'clearing union' and 'bankor' concepts to deal with problems in international trade). Another example of the pernicious influence of US classical liberal ideology. 


Quote:

"As Chávez's successor Nicolás Maduro began to increase domestic spending after the oil price collapse, high inflation, currency controls, an unfriendly environment with private businesses, as well as the risk of default, prevented the entrance of stronger foreign currencies into Venezuela.[5] Previously, the Chávez government turned to China to fund its overspending on social programs.[5] Despite warnings near the beginning of Chávez's tenure in the early 2000s,[1] his government continuously overspent in social spending and did not save enough money for any future economic turmoil, which Venezuela faced shortly before and after his death.[2"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_policy_of_the_Hugo_Ch%C3%A1vez_administration

1. "Prevented the entry of stronger foreign currencies into Venezuela " What on earth does that mean? Foreign currencies are useless for the citizens of a given country, obviously, unless they all decide to buy a foreign currency with - what?

2. "overspending (!) on social programs"

ie Chavez should have returned to the previous status quo before the oil price collapse...... with 50% of the population living in poverty, and a tiny minority controlling the nation's wealth. ....

3. "Did not save enough money" to deal with an oil price collapse, yes...risky in a world without some sort of Keynesian scheme as mentioned above.

Your quote was obviously written by an orthodox stooge without any understanding of MMT. 


Quote:

Ah yes. Airships will be back in vogue.

There may be a niche for them; but:

https://supplychaindigital.com/logistics-1/boeings-new-freight-plane-runs-renewable-energy

"The biggest news surrounding this new freight plane is that Boeing will fly the plane to Paris from the United States using a renewable aviation jet fuel. The trip will mark the world’s first transatlantic crossing of a commercial jet using biologically derived fuel".

O ye of little faith...



Quote:

In its entirety petal.

Now you have ceased debating the point, because  you know you will lose.
Any reader can see my latter statement - which you claim represents a change of mind on my part - and which you implicitly acknowledge as correct since you can't (or haven't bothered to) find fault with it - represents  my understanding of MMT which has been consistent all along.


Quote:

That from 1247 my time yesterday. Oh dear the NO TAXES was from 19th November.

Wherever, or whatever time (1247?) it was  from, NO TAXES refers to no taxes required in order for the currency issuer to spend debt free money... which has been the MMT revelation I have presented all along.

Have a shot at debating THAT matter, not the chronology of your misunderstanding of the concept.

Namely:

1. The currency issuer can purchase [b]whatever is available for purchase in the nation's own currency, without taxing or borrowing from the private sector. [/b] The limit to the spending is outlined in that statement.


Quote:

And yet they haven't. It is ongoing. Ask the UN. ;)

The abolitionists  won the debate in the UK parliament in the 19th century, and slavery was outlawed; and later in the 20th century, any ongoing slavery around the world is illegal according to the UN Charter. 

But guess who IS preventing the establishment of an international rules-based system which WOULD eliminate illegal slavery....warning: don't look in a mirror, it will shatter into a million pieces....

thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 5^th, 2021 at 12:13pm:

lee wrote Yesterday at 1:04pm: So 16 can control the world. No.  7 or 9 permanent members, taking advice from an International Court of Justice.  Note the number: the majority vote carries the day...which is the basis of 'rule of law'.

So the rotating members don't get a say? ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 5^th, 2021 at 12:13pm:

Of course you,  true to the sovereignty of the individual, survival of the fittest ideology, want YOUR  opinion to "control  the world"....whereas I am willing to submit to rule of law in my own nation; and submit to international law involving relations with other nations.

So still being ruled by the UN SC. ;)


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 5^th, 2021 at 12:13pm:

Yes, because the IMF, the institution which should have dealt with problems arising from oil price instability - not Venezuela's  fault - is an American profit-seeking stooge. The world doesn't have an effective international assistance mechanism, just as the world doesn't have an effective international rules based system...because of the  delusional "freedom "values-based " BS of the West.

Ah. This is the same IMF that won't allow fossil fuel plants to be built? The same IMF controlled by the UN? And countries should not control their own destiny but be subservient to the IMF? ;D ;D ;D ;D


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 5^th, 2021 at 12:13pm:

1. "Prevented the entry of stronger foreign currencies into Venezuela " What on earth does that mean? Foreign currencies are useless for the citizens of a given country, obviously, unless they all decide to buy a foreign currency with - what?

Like selling oil for US dollars? Or Euros? ;)


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 5^th, 2021 at 12:13pm:

Your quote was obviously written by an orthodox stooge without any understanding of MMT.

Poor petal. So fond of wiki except when you are not. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

You do know burning renewable Jet Fuel gives off CO2? Oh noes. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 5^th, 2021 at 12:13pm:

Now you have ceased debating the point, because  you know you will lose. Any reader can see my latter statement - which you claim represents a change of mind on my part - and which you implicitly acknowledge as correct since you can't (or haven't bothered to) find fault with it - represents  my understanding of MMT which has been consistent all along.

Your understanding? From no taxes to some taxes - that is not consistent. ;)


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 5^th, 2021 at 12:13pm:

Wherever, or whatever time (1247?) it was  from, NO TAXES refers to no taxes required in order for the currency issuer to spend debt free money... which has been the MMT revelation I have presented all along

Total BS. NO TAXES means NO TAXES.


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 5^th, 2021 at 12:13pm:

Have a shot at debating THAT matter, not the chronology of your misunderstanding of the concept.

Keep digging petal. ;)
thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 5^th, 2021 at 12:13pm:

The abolitionists  won the debate in the UK parliament in the 19th century, and slavery was outlawed; and later in the 20th century, any ongoing slavery around the world is illegal according to the UN Charter.

And yet it still occurs. ;)


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 5^th, 2021 at 12:13pm:

But guess who IS preventing the establishment of an international rules-based system which WOULD eliminate illegal slavery....warning: don't look in a mirror, it will shatter into a million pieces....

But that international rule already exists.

So you are saying the UN has failed. Good for you. Welcome aboard.

lee wrote on Dec 5^th, 2021 at 1:10pm:

So the rotating members don't get a say?

The later institution of the larger number non-permanent rotating members was an attempt to  deal with the fact the UNSC with veto is powerless.   


Quote:

So still being ruled by the UN SC.

Plus advice from the world's greatest jurists in a (reformed)  ICJ.

Note: "being ruled by" - in the the case of the UNSC -  means submitting to rule of law in international affairs only.

Nations can still carry on with their own (often silly) internal debates eg on abortion, gun control, gay rights,  CRT, marriage rights, etc etc; the UNSC is not interested in adjudicating these internal affairs. .

So smarten up your definition of "being ruled by"....


Quote:

Ah. This is the same IMF that won't allow fossil fuel plants to be built? The same IMF controlled by the UN? And countries should not control their own destiny but be subservient to the IMF?

???

1. if you are referring to the present IMF, it doesn't fund  fund ANY private sector energy development.

2. it's NOT controlled by the UN

3. Your ideological   individual sovereignty argument again; which is why Keynes proposals to engender prosperous development in all  nations was rejected, in favour of chaotic,  survival of the fittest,   competition



Quote:

Like selling oil for US dollars? Or Euros?

The oil price -  in US dollars -  collapsed. So Venezuelan US debt became un-payable by Venezuela.


Quote:

Poor petal. So fond of wiki except when you are not.

Unlike you I can debate arguments put forward on Wiki, by various contending schools of economics 


Quote:

You do know burning renewable Jet Fuel gives off CO2?]

You should know my concerns re CO2 by now...but certainly the elimination of filthy poisonous fossil pollution is a good thing.


Quote:

Your understanding? From no taxes to some taxes - that is not consistent. ;)

The only thing consistent is your misunderstanding; taxes only if required  to control spending, taxes are NOT required to initiate spending, by the debt-free currency issuer.  read on.


Quote:

Total BS. NO TAXES means NO TAXES.

No it doesn't.  MMT reverses the order of taxation, from tax (or borrow) first, then spend (the mainstream flat-earth orthodoxy); to spend first, then tax (if necessary, may not be necessary), the MMT revelation.

Note: the currency issuer never needs to borrow in its own currency, another MMT revelation.

See: Mosler's '7 deadly innocent frauds of (orthodox) economic policy'. 


Quote:

But that international rule already exists.

In UN resolutions etc but routinely ignored by everyone. Law which is not enforced (eg, by a UNSC without veto)  is not rule of law at all,  but chaos, as evidenced by our broken world.


Quote:

So you are saying the UN has failed. Good for you. Welcome aboard.

We are living in exciting times. A 'socialist' state will soon become the largest economy in the world; and that state will see, inter alia,  the advantage of elimination a nuclear arms race. That's when Doc Evatt's original vision for the UN will be realized.

thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 5^th, 2021 at 2:34pm:

Nations can still carry on with their own (often silly) internal debates  on abortion, gun control, CRT, marriage rights, etc etc; the UNSC is not interested in adjudicating these internal affairs. .

But slavery is an "internal affair". ;)


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 5^th, 2021 at 2:34pm:

1. if you are referring to the present IMF, it doesn't fund  fund ANY private sector energy development.

"The hidden flows of finance to fossil fuels: World Bank and IMF edition"

https://foe.org/blog/finance-to-fossil-fuels-world-bank-imf/


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 5^th, 2021 at 2:34pm:

2. it's NOT controlled by the UN

"The International Monetary Fund (IMF) and the World Bank are institutions in the United Nations system. "

https://www.imf.org/en/About/Factsheets/Sheets/2016/07/27/15/31/IMF-World-Bank


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 5^th, 2021 at 2:34pm:

The oil price -  in US dollars -  collapsed. So Venezuelan US debt became unpayble by Venezuela.

And rebounded. ::)


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 5^th, 2021 at 2:34pm:

Unlike you I can debate arguments put forward on Wiki, by contending schools of economics

And yet you have no proof of concept. It is not even a theory. ;)


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 5^th, 2021 at 2:34pm:

You should know my concerns re CO2 by now...but certainly the elimination of filthy poisonous fossil pollution is a good thing.

So you would prefer the filthy poisonous renewable jet fuel. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 5^th, 2021 at 2:34pm:

In UN resolutions etc but routinely ignored by everyone. Law which is not enforced (eg, by a UNSC without veto)  is not rule of law at all,  but chaos, as evidenced by our broken world

And yet you want to prolong this "brokeness". ;)


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 5^th, 2021 at 2:34pm:

A 'socialist' state will soon become the largest economy in the world; and that state will see, inter alia,  the advantage of elimination a nuclear arms race.

So whose money are hey going to spend. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

lee wrote on Dec 5^th, 2021 at 2:51pm:

But slavery is an "internal affair"

No it's not, it's illegal; so violations of the UNUDHR will need to be addressed by the ICJ.(after reform of the UN, see below)  Btw,  article 25 of the UNUDHR requires universal access to above poverty employment (just to engage your conservative brain...)

But we must institute reform to enable the UN system to function as originally envisioned, eg by ditching the veto imposed on the UNSC by an evil 'sovereignty of the individual' classical Western ideology.


Quote:

"The hidden flows of finance to fossil fuels: World Bank and IMF edition" https://foe.org/blog/finance-to-fossil-fuels-world-bank-imf/

Well whadaya know, the evil US stooge (ie, Instant Misery Fund) is funding filthy fossils, I'm not surprised, actually. The IMF is supposed to assist nations to deal with debt problems (which it never does, it always makes things worse for any nation  unfortunate  enough to be forced to seek assistance. 


Quote:

"The International Monetary Fund (IMF) and the World Bank are institutions in the United Nations system. " https://www.imf.org/en/About/Factsheets/Sheets/2016/07/27/15/31/IMF-World-Bank

Indeed...part of the 'UNSC without veto' system, which amounts to 'international law' according to the US and the international debt-based finance system .....the IMF is a US stooge,  to replace Keynes' vision for a new post WW2 financial system. 


Quote:

And rebounded. ::)

...after the damage was done. Timing is everything in the current unregulated financial market casino.


Quote:

And yet you have no proof of concept. It is not even a theory.

The new Macroeconomics text book by Mitchell, Wray and Watts has sold well, and will be influencing central bankers before long, when a new generation takes the reins.


Quote:

So you would prefer the filthy poisonous renewable jet fuel

I'm  assuming renewables fuels, unlike filthy fossils,  doesn't emit poisonous gases, only CO2. 


Quote:

And yet you want to prolong this "brokeness"

How did you come to that conclusion (even given your conservative brain)?

A UNSC without veto will eradicate war between nations, and enable eradication of poverty in all nations (via MMT).

....and hence the phony hyperpartisan war over 'illegal immigrants' in the US (and to a lesser exent Oz)


Quote:

So whose money are they going to spend.

Didn't you know money is created 'ex nihilo', even in the present flawed economic orthodoxy?  It's a matter of who determines whose pockets the out-of-nothing created money ends up in.

thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 6^th, 2021 at 3:12pm:

No it's not, it's illegal; so violations of the UNUDHR will need to be addressed by the ICJ.

And they haven't. The Useless UN


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 6^th, 2021 at 3:12pm:

Well whadaya know, the evil US stooge (ie, Instant Misery Fund) is funding filthy fossils, I'm not surprised, actually.

You mean the US controls the UN? But now they won't fund fossil fuels. The US again?  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 6^th, 2021 at 3:12pm:

Indeed...part of the 'UNSC without veto' system, which amounts to 'international law' according to the US and the international debt-based finance system .....the IMF is a US stooge,  to replace Keynes' vision for a new post WW2 financial system.

The IMF is now a part of the Security Council? ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

"Ask Venezuela’s Hugo Chávez about the IMF and you are likely to get a harangue on the wicked tools of the imperialistic United States: he suspects that monetary institution behind the failed coup that attempted to oust him a couple of years ago. To show the way things should be done, Chávez has lately turned himself into a sort of “tropical IMF”, dispensing his wads of petrodollars to those countries he considers really worthy. He wants to do things his way. All those multilateral institutions are not for him.

And then he turns around and goes out of his way to get elected to one of the non-permanent seats in the UN Security Council. Do we detect a contradiction there?

Not really. It might rather be that he read the latest CESifo Working Paper by Alex Dreher and Jan-Egbert Sturm (both at ETH Zurich), and James Raymond Vreeland (Yale University): they found a robust positive relationship between temporary Security Council membership and favourable treatment by the IMF."

https://www.ifo.de/cesifo/newsletter/imf1808.htm


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 6^th, 2021 at 3:12pm:

after the damage was done.

And Chavez was giving his petrodollar loans to countries he considered friendly. ::)


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 6^th, 2021 at 3:12pm:

The new Macroeconomics text book by Mitchell, Wray and Watts has sold well, and will be influencing central bankers before long, when a new generation takes the reins.

And when the new generation goes broke because they also don't understand how economics actually works? ;D ;D ;D ;D

As I said no proof of concept.


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 6^th, 2021 at 3:12pm:

I'm  assuming renewables fuels, unlike filthy fossils,  doesn't emit poisonous gases, only CO2.

They are going to be a hydrocarbon, same as now. They are going to give off particulates, the same as now. Which gases that fossil fuels give off are poisonous when efficiently burned? ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 6^th, 2021 at 3:12pm:

A UNSC without veto will eradicate war between nations, and enable eradication of poverty in all nations (via MMT).

Ah. Utopia.  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Just too far left to be sensible. ::)

lee wrote on Dec 6^th, 2021 at 4:39pm:

And they haven't. The Useless UN

My point all along... a UN destroyed by YOUR blind 'individual natural rights' delusion. Note:  such "individual rights" don't exist in nature.


Quote:

You mean the US controls the UN?

Indeed that's the effect of a single hegemonic global power, who can bully every other nation on the planet. 


Quote:

The IMF is now a part of the Security Council?

.

No, it's a US stooge (your comprehension problems again...)


Quote:

And then he turns around and goes out of his way to get elected to one of the non-permanent seats in the UN Security Council. Do we detect a contradiction there?

Non-permanent seats shouldn't exist; the UNGA is the debating forum for all nations, to be considered by the (reformed) UNSC.

Quote:

It might rather be that he read the latest CESifo Working Paper by Alex Dreher and Jan-Egbert Sturm (both at ETH Zurich), and James Raymond Vreeland (Yale University): they found a robust positive relationship between temporary Security Council membership and favourable treatment by the IMF."

So... non-permanent members of a phony Security Council (which is anything but)  can no doubt influence the IMF, despite it being a US stooge.


Quote:

https://www.ifo.de/cesifo/newsletter/imf1808.htm

"... it would be surprising if the IMF’s major stakeholders —the US, Japan, Germany, France and the UK—  did not utilize the IMF to promote their strategic interests"......well... self-interest drives everything, including bad governance.

"Corruption or Realpolitik? That’s a matter of interpretation. What is amply evident is that IMF programme participation and design are not nearly as aseptic (my note:meaning free from contamination) as idealists would like to believe, and those who accuse the IMF of catering to special interests cannot be dismissed offhand".

Exactly. (though I'm confused by the use of the word "idealists"  there...oh, the authors are pushing the Chavez/"special interests" line, who'd have thought.....


Quote:

And Chavez was giving his petrodollar loans to countries he considered friendly. ::)

..and committing a cardinal sin in MMT: do NOT borrow in a foreign currency.


Quote:

And when the new generation goes broke because they also don't understand how economics actually works?

  The new generation of central bankers, that is....and btw central bankers NEVER  go broke.....even when their policies are misguided, as at present.



Quote:

As I said no proof of concept.

I note you are unable to grasp the significance of the fact that money is created 'ex nihilo' (whether in private banks or the central bank).

Meanwhile, the current failing orthodoxy has 'no proof of concept' either, as perceived in a (previously cited)  recent NYT article entitled "no-one really knows how the economy works." Time to step aside for MMT...which can create and destroy money as appropriate, to properly deal with events like the GFC - as they arise.


Quote:

They are going to be a hydrocarbon, same as now. They are going to give off particulates, the same as now.

I spent some time trying to find out more about poisonous emissions from bio fuels, but couldn't find any useful info. (The big issue - in the articles I found - is CO2 emissions, as always).


Quote:

Which gases that fossil fuels give off are poisonous when efficiently burned?

There's the rub: "when efficiently burned".... impossible in diesels more than a few years old, with failing catalytic converters. Hence the upcoming ban on ICEs in built up areas.


Quote:

Ah. Utopia. Just too far left to be sensible. ::)

Ah..the conservative mind, not long ago they thought the economy would collapse if slavery was outlawed. Sensible?

thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 6^th, 2021 at 6:03pm:

a UN destroyed by YOUR blind 'individual natural rights' delusion.

Destroyed by themselves. Nothing to do with my natural rights.


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 6^th, 2021 at 6:03pm:

Indeed that's the effect of a single hegemonic global power, who can bully every other nation on the planet.

Such a numpty. They are outvoted by most everyone. ;)


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 6^th, 2021 at 6:03pm:

No, it's a US stooge (your comprehension problems again...)

So why aren't they continuing funding fossil fuels? ;D ;D ;D ;D


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 6^th, 2021 at 6:03pm:

Non-permanent seats shouldn't exist; the UNGA is the debating forum for all nations, to be considered by the (reformed) UNSC.

so now you want a consensus of 193 odd countries? ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 6^th, 2021 at 6:03pm:

So... non-permanent members of a phony Security Council (which is anything but)  can no doubt influence the IMF, despite it being a US stooge.

;D ;D ;D ;D ;D Just too funny. The US controls the IMF and gets outvoted. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 6^th, 2021 at 6:03pm:

..and committing a cardinal sin in MMT: do NOT borrow in a foreign currency.

Wow. talk about comprehension issues. They LOANED money not borrowed it. ::)


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 6^th, 2021 at 6:03pm:

The new generation of central bankers, that is....and btw central bankers NEVER  go broke.....even when their policies are misguided, as at present.

And that will change. Because you way they don't need to repay.  ::)


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 6^th, 2021 at 6:03pm:

I spent some time trying to find out more about poisonous emissions from bio fuels, but couldn't find any useful info. (The big issue - in the articles I found - is CO2 emissions, as always).

And didn't find anything poisonous as well. ;)


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 6^th, 2021 at 6:03pm:

There's the rub: "when efficiently burned".... impossible in diesels more than a few years old, with failing catalytic converters. Hence the upcoming ban on ICEs in built up areas.

So jet fuel is emission free? Oh an upcoming ban? Rhat means that it has no effect currently. And any future  legislation can be canned at the stroke of a pen. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 6^th, 2021 at 6:03pm:

Ah..the conservative mind, not long ago they thought the economy would collapse if slavery was outlawed.

And yet slavery continues. But we made machines. machines to run on stable electrical supplies. And that with your options will be a no manufacturing..

lee wrote on Dec 6^th, 2021 at 7:15pm:

Destroyed by themselves. Nothing to do with my natural rights.

This IS the key point. The UN was rendered incapable of carrying out its mission - ie, establish an international rules based system to avoid another catastrophic world war, or wars in general - at the very beginning of the adoption of its Charter in 1946. 

Reason?

Because delegates from the major powers (US and USSR) refused to relinquish their national sovereignty.

Why?  Take the US case first:

1.  The US constitution is based on the delusion of individual inalienable/natural  rights, delusional because no such rights exist in nature, they are human inventions. The upshot of this classical liberal delusion is the US demanded absolute national sovereignty.

2. The USSR insisted on one vote for each of the nations in the Soviet bloc, rejected by the US, because the voting power of the USSR  (in the proposed UNSC) would have been overwhelming.

Hence the imposition of the veto right,  to be exercised by any one of the 5 permanent members whenever any one of of them felt so inclined to exercise its veto right.


Quote:

Such a numpty. They are outvoted by most everyone.

Note: given my clear and irrefutable explanation of the veto power, and the reasons for its enforced adoption by the UNSC, I will proceed to easily demolish each of your arguments which are based on the delusion of individual natural/inalienable rights. 


Er...the US has a veto....and the biggest stick......so even if  eg, the vote is  100 to 1, nevertheless when the 1 has a veto AND the biggest stick....being "outvoted" is of no consequence for the US.

See how easy that was?


Quote:

So why aren't they continuing funding fossil fuels?

 

because it's not part of their remit.

See how easy that was was?


Quote:

so now you want a consensus of 193 odd countries?

No, I want all c. 193 nations to submit to an international rules based system. to establish a well-ordered global community.

See how easy that was?


Quote:

Just too funny. The US controls the IMF and gets outvoted.

 
Addressed above. The IMF is a US stooge, and the US doesn't give two hoots about being outvoted, whether in the UN or the IMF.

See how easy that was?


Quote:

Wow. talk about comprehension issues. They LOANED money not borrowed it.

So you say, based on these false assertions:

1. " Chávez has lately turned himself into a sort of “tropical IMF”, dispensing his wads of petrodollars to those countries he considers really worthy"

and

2. "And Chavez was giving his petrodollar loans to countries he considered friendly".

Both 1 and 2 are absurd propositions; Chavez needed to fund 'expensive' anti-poverty socialist policies  at home, he was in no position to fund "friends" overseas.

(To be continued)

lee wrote on Dec 6^th, 2021 at 7:15pm:

And that will change. Because you way they don't need to repay.

Sloppy representation of MMT. Central bankers can only manipulate interest rates at present.... whereas they should be issuing debt free money in accordance with the government's fiscal policies (while observing the resources/productive capacity constraint).


Quote:

And didn't find anything poisonous as well.

Your turn: show us the article which shows bio fuels emit poisonous gases, just as fossil fuels do.


Quote:

So jet fuel is emission free? Oh an upcoming ban? Rhat means that it has no effect currently. And any future  legislation can be canned at the stroke of a pen.

Gosh...problems with logic now. The first point is addressed above (and yet to be shown by either of us, one way or the other). eg,  "Emissions" -  meaning CO2 or poisons?

Upcoming bans ARE real, diesels ARE filthy and emit poisons, deadly in heavy traffic in built-up areas. 


Quote:

And yet slavery continues.

Owing to lack of effective international law, the result of your delusional natural rights ideology, as explained previously.

Don't deny it again; it will probably be the 3rd time if you do.

Or you can attempt to defend your delusional ideology....rather than merely asserting it has no consequence on the functioning of the UN.


Quote:

But we made machines. machines to run on stable electrical supplies. And that with your options will be a no manufacturing..

Nonsense, you are now merely asserting we cannot immediately begin the fastest possible transition to 100% renewables, with manufacturing based on continuous free electricity (from sun and wind, plus smart grid and longterm/short term storage).  Let's get on with the job and see what the situation is when 80% renewables is achieved. Then we can decide whether the last 20% needs the addition of nuclear, or not.   

thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 7^th, 2021 at 10:57am:

1.  The US constitution is based on the delusion of individual inalienable/natural  rights, delusional because no such rights exist in nature, they are human inventions. The upshot of this classical liberal delusion is the US demanded absolute national sovereignty.

And so if you follow that through slavery should not be illegal because the illegality is a human construct.. ;)


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 7^th, 2021 at 10:57am:

Er...the US has a veto....and the biggest stick......so even if  eg, the vote is  100 to 1, nevertheless when the 1 has a veto AND the biggest stick....being "outvoted" is of no consequence for the US.

The biggest schtick you mean. The USSR has used the veto more. ;)


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 7^th, 2021 at 10:57am:

2. The USSR insisted on one vote for each of the nations in the Soviet bloc, rejected by the US, because the voting power of the USSR  (in the proposed UNSC) would have been overwhelming.

see above.


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 7^th, 2021 at 10:57am:

because it's not part of their remit.

Oh dear so the Us did and doesn't. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 7^th, 2021 at 10:57am:

No, I want all c. 193 nations to submit to an international rules based system. to establish a well-ordered global community. See how easy that was?

Ah wishes now make it so. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 7^th, 2021 at 10:57am:

Addressed above. The IMF is a US stooge, and the US doesn't give two hoots about being outvoted, whether in the UN or the IMF.

And yet the IMF is really a leftist being.

"Perhaps also relevant, Georgieva has widened the remit of the IMF to include humanitarian concerns and issues such as climate change."

"Much of the public commentary, even by staid commentators such as former World Bank chief economist Anne Krueger, The Economist and Edward Luce at the Financial Times, is adamant – Georgieva has to go, or the reputation of both institutions will been trashed. Her defenders are the usual left-leaning commentators such as Jeffrey Sachs and Joseph Stiglitz, another former chief economist of the Bank."

https://www.lowyinstitute.org/the-interpreter/rank-index-or-politicised-process-imf-and-trouble-top

See how easy that was?


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 7^th, 2021 at 10:57am:

So you say, based on these false assertions: 1. " Chávez has lately turned himself into a sort of “tropical IMF”, dispensing his wads of petrodollars to those countries he considers really worthy" and 2. "And Chavez was giving his petrodollar loans to countries he considered friendly".

And yet you provide NOTHING to support your view.

See how easy that was?


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 7^th, 2021 at 11:30am:

Sloppy representation of MMT. Central bankers can only manipulate interest rates at present.... whereas they should be issuing debt free money in accordance with the government's fiscal policies (while observing the resources/productive capacity constraint).

And you have this naive belief in its unproven hypothesis. ;)


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 7^th, 2021 at 11:30am:

Your turn: show us the article which shows bio fuels emit poisonous gases, just as fossil fuels do.

You were the one talking about jet fuel and poisonous fossil fuels. You made the claim. Back it up. ::)


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 7^th, 2021 at 11:30am:

Gosh...problems with logic now. The first point is addressed above (and yet to be shown by either of us, one way or the other). eg,  "Emissions" -  meaning CO2 or poisons?

thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 6^th, 2021 at 3:12pm:

I'm  assuming renewables fuels, unlike filthy fossils,  doesn't emit poisonous gases, only CO2.

That was easy wasn't it.


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 7^th, 2021 at 11:30am:

Upcoming bans ARE real, diesels ARE filthy and emit poisons, deadly in heavy traffic in built-up areas.

Which DEADLY poisons? ::)


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 7^th, 2021 at 11:30am:

Nonsense, you are now merely asserting we cannot immediately begin the fastest possible transition to 100% renewables, with manufacturing based on continuous free electricity (from sun and wind, plus smart grid and longterm/short term storage).  Let's get on with the job and see what the situation is when 80% renewables is achieved. Then we can decide whether the last 20% needs the addition of nuclear, or not.

Oh dear. Do it - if it fails too bad. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

When these lists get past 3 or 4 comments I suspect that nobody bothers to read it.

It is just more Blah Blah Blah.

I did actually read the one above and it proved my point - Blah Blah Blah.

lee wrote on Dec 7^th, 2021 at 1:06pm:

And so if you follow that through slavery should not be illegal because the illegality is a human construct.. ;)

You didn't "carry it through" far enough: rule of law (including international law) - which is a human construct - concerned with "justice" (also a human construct), has determined slavery is illegal.  The question is: how to enforce the Law.


Quote:

The biggest schtick you mean. The USSR has used the veto more.

Irrelevant. The very existence of the veto is the problem which is inhibiting the establishment of an international rules based system. 

And no I don't mean "the biggest schtick", that's just your diversionary tactic (since you can't debate the point); I mean the biggest stick. 


Quote:

Oh dear so the Us did and doesn't

I already told you: Keynes' proposal for an IMF - which would actually have been capable of assisting prosperous development in all  nations - was rejected by the greedy Americans who now  found themselves (in 1946) to be 'masters of the universe'.

So they created their own version of the IMF...a US stooge of course, enforcing  debt issuance and repayment on terms favourable to the US. 



Quote:

And yet the IMF is really a leftist being.

Disproved above, Keynes' IMF would have been a "leftist being", to assist prosperous development among all nations.

[Note how the West  today has suddenly become interested in international development, after China's BRI initiative]


Quote:

"Perhaps also relevant, Georgieva has widened the remit of the IMF to include humanitarian concerns and issues such as climate change."

...indeed, a full 70 years after the founding of the US IMF; what has it been doing for 70 years?


Quote:

"Much of the public commentary, even by staid commentators such as former World Bank chief economist Anne Krueger, The Economist and Edward Luce at the Financial Times, is adamant – Georgieva has to go, or the reputation of both institutions will been trashed. Her defenders are the usual left-leaning commentators such as Jeffrey Sachs and Joseph Stiglitz, another former chief economist of the Bank."

Thanks for proving my point. The mainstream evil neoliberal  economists want to return the IMF to its status as a US beneficiary, in opposition to "left leaning" economists. 


Quote:

And yet you provide NOTHING to support your view.

Facts are not opinions/views. Chavez was successfully funding his socialist policies until the price of oil collapsed.


Quote:

And you have this naive belief in its unproven hypothesis.

Yes. MMT economists correctly predicted the GFC, while mainstream flat-earthers were taken by surprise; and also explained why Japan was able to maintain near full employment with low inflation and low interest rates, despite having the largest national debt to GDP ratio in the world, after its property bubble burst.


Quote:

You were the one talking about jet fuel and poisonous fossil fuels. You made the claim. Back it up. ::)

No, you are confused again. Everybody knows fossil fuels emit poisonous gases, whether burned in jet engines or in any other manner. The question I was seeking an answer to was whether burning bio fuels in jet engines also emits poisonous gases.   


Quote:

Which DEADLY poisons?

https://www.ccohs.ca/oshanswers/chemicals/diesel_exhaust.html

Short term exposure to diesel exhaust can cause coughing, and irritation of the eyes, nose, throat, and respiratory tract. Breathing in diesel exhaust can cause lung irritation and/or an allergic reaction causing asthma (wheezing and difficult breathing), or making pre-existing asthma worse.

Very high levels can lead to asphyxiation from carbon monoxide poisoning.

Long term exposure may lead to serious health effects. The International Agency for Research on Cancer (IARC), which is part of the World Health Organization (WHO), classified diesel engine exhaust as carcinogenic to humans (Group 1), determining that exposure to diesel exhaust emissions increases the risk for lung cancer and possibly bladder cancer.


Quote:

Oh dear. Do it - if it fails too bad

Your problems with logic are showing again....80% or whatever, IF it does indeed prove difficult to proceed beyond that level (ie fueled only by sun and wind+storage) - but most likely isn't - is NOT 'failure'; we will be 80% of the way there, a huge improvement over 100% filthy fossils. 

thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 8^th, 2021 at 2:20pm:

The question is: how to enforce the Law.

A consensus of 193 countries. ;D ;D ;D ;D


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 8^th, 2021 at 2:20pm:

And no I don't mean "the biggest schtick", that's just your diversionary tactic (since you can't debate the point); I mean the biggest stick.

And yet you can't point to this "biggest stick". ::)


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 8^th, 2021 at 2:20pm:

So they created their own version of the IMF...a US stooge of course, enforcing  debt issuance and repayment on terms favourable to the US.

So what is the name of this US version of the IMF? ::)


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 8^th, 2021 at 2:20pm:

Disproved above, Keynes' IMF would have been a "leftist being", to assist prosperous development among all nations.

You have disproved nothing. Assertions without proof remain merely assertion. ;)


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 8^th, 2021 at 2:20pm:

.indeed, a full 70 years after the founding of the US IMF; what has it been doing for 70 years?

So it is not a stooge version by the US. ::)


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 8^th, 2021 at 2:20pm:

Thanks for proving my point. The mainstream evil neoliberal  economists want to return the IMF to its status as a US beneficiary, in opposition to "left leaning" economists.

No you said they already were. ;D ;D ;D ;D


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 8^th, 2021 at 2:20pm:

Chavez was successfully funding his socialist policies until the price of oil collapsed.

He was also lending money which is what you disagreed with. ::)


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 8^th, 2021 at 2:20pm:

MMT economists correctly predicted the GFC, while mainstream flat-earthers were taken by surprise; and also explained why Japan was able to maintain near full employment with low inflation and low interest rates, despite having the largest national debt to GDP ratio in the world, after its property bubble burst.

Another assertion without proof offered. ::)


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 8^th, 2021 at 2:20pm:

Everybody knows fossil fuels emit poisonous gases, whether burned in jet engines or in any other manner.

Ah you "just know"? ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 8^th, 2021 at 2:20pm:

https://www.ccohs.ca/oshanswers/chemicals/diesel_exhaust.html

Oh dear.


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 8^th, 2021 at 2:20pm:

Very high levels can lead to asphyxiation from carbon monoxide poisoning.

Can; not do.


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 8^th, 2021 at 2:20pm:

Long term exposure may lead to serious health effects.

May; not does.  ::)


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 8^th, 2021 at 2:20pm:

Your problems with logic are showing again....80% or whatever, IF it does indeed prove difficult to proceed beyond that level (ie fueled only by sun and wind+storage) - but most likely isn't - is NOT 'failure'; we will be 80% of the way there, a huge improvement over 100% filthy fossils.

And what if it has difficulty actually ACHIEVING that level, which is far more likely? ::)

lee wrote on Dec 8^th, 2021 at 3:20pm:

A consensus of 193 countries

China's consensus  one-party meritocracy was established by defeating the proponents of two-party adversarial politics, on the battle field IN CHINA.

That is the internal affair of China.   

But relations between 193 separate nations relates  to external affairs, requiring adjudication by - an international rules based system, to avoid war in the age of MAD.   


Quote:

And yet you can't point to this "biggest stick"

I thought you would understand the meaning ie, the Pentagon, spending more the the rest of the world combined and 3 times China's  defense spending. 


Quote:

So what is the name of this US version of the IMF?

  The IMF. (I can play that game, too....)


Quote:

You have disproved nothing. Assertions without proof remain merely assertion.

Ah... your fall back position; yet Keynes 'clearing union' would have been 'leftist' (ie promoting the common welfare), that's  just a fact.


Quote:

So it is not a stooge version by the US

IQ? The present leader - Georgieva - is being threatened because she wants to move IMF policy to the left, ie to be less of less of a self-serving US stooge.


Quote:

He was also lending money which is what you disagreed with

  Yes I disagreed with him lending money....he couldn't afford it, especially with his one trick economy relying on the price of oil


Quote:

Another assertion without proof offered.

Again, just fact:

Steve Keen, head of the School of Economics, History and Politics, Kingston University
Keen, an Australian, is widely regarded as one of the first economists to make the call on an impending financial crisis and later won the inaugural Revere Award for Economics for his foresight.

In December 2005, when markets seemed buoyant, Keen set up the website debtdeflation.com as a platform to discuss the “global debt bubble”. Then teaching at the University of Western Sydney, he attracted considerable attention, much of it negative, for his views that an exponential rise in private debt in Australia, and in the US, was unsustainable and would lead to a collapse in asset prices.

“This is how bubbles grow and burst and ignoring debt in this way is one of the great fallacies of modern economics.”


Here is Steve on MMT
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RTTKvM62HQ0


Quote:

Oh dear.

yes ..and well should you say, in the face of the poisonous filth coming from burning fossils 


Quote:

Can; not do.

You still smoking cigs? Happy to lock yourself in a shed with a running ICE?


Quote:

May; not does.

..like smoking, which is heavily sanctioned for a reason, see above.


Quote:

And what if it has difficulty actually ACHIEVING that level, which is far more likely?

So what level of renewables do YOU think can be achieved ASAP with current technology?   

And then work out what can be done, when that level is reached. An empirical approach, rather than just asserting it can'rt nbe done. 

thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 9^th, 2021 at 6:19pm:

China's consensus  one-party meritocracy was established by defeating the proponents of two-party adversarial politics, on the battle field IN CHINA.

Ah yes where merit is gender based. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 9^th, 2021 at 6:19pm:

I thought you would understand the meaning ie, the Pentagon, spending more the the rest of the world combined and 3 times China's  defense spending.

You know how much China spends on defence? ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 9^th, 2021 at 6:19pm:

The IMF. (I can play that game, too....)

So there is no US version of the IMF despite your claim. ;)


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 9^th, 2021 at 6:19pm:

IQ? The present leader - Georgieva - is being threatened because she wants to move IMF policy to the left, ie to be less of less of a self-serving US stooge.

Poor petal she has already moved it to the left. Except where climate change is concerned when she doesn't want Africa to have reliable fossil fuel energy. That's the Green Revolution for you. Just another neocolonial stance. ;)


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 9^th, 2021 at 6:19pm:

Yes I disagreed with him lending money....he couldn't afford it, especially with his one trick economy relying on the price of oil

But you initially said he borrowed it. ;D ;D ;D ;D


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 9^th, 2021 at 6:19pm:

Steve Keen, head of the School of Economics, History and Politics, Kingston University Keen, an Australian, is widely regarded as one of the first economists to make the call on an impending financial crisis and later won the inaugural Revere Award for Economics for his foresight.

So how did he describe this GFC? That Australian house prices would fall by 40%. ;D ;D ;D ;D

That Australian debt to GDP would be 160%. ;D ;D ;D ;D

That Australia would be in recession long before debt to GDP  ratio fell. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 9^th, 2021 at 6:19pm:

yes ..and well should you say, in the face of the poisonous filth coming from burning fossils

And yet you can't provide anything but can, could and may. Why is that?


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 9^th, 2021 at 6:19pm:

You still smoking cigs? Happy to lock yourself in a shed with a running ICE?

Wow are you that brain dead that you think running an engine without adequate ventilation is good. Even electric motors - read up on ozone. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 9^th, 2021 at 6:19pm:

.like smoking, which is heavily sanctioned for a reason, see above.

Already addressed. That was easy wasn't it. ;)


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 9^th, 2021 at 6:19pm:

So what level of renewables do YOU think can be achieved ASAP with current technology?

Now you are changing the story line. It is not what can be achieved but the extent to which it will provide stable supply. ;)

lee wrote on Dec 9^th, 2021 at 7:13pm:

Ah yes where merit is gender based

  Irrelevent... pass.


Quote:

You know how much China spends on defence?

  yes... (haven't you got google...)


Quote:

So there is no US version of the IMF despite your claim.

The US designed the IMF, to benefit the US.


Quote:

Poor petal she has already moved it to the left. Except where climate change is concerned when she doesn't want Africa to have reliable fossil fuel energy. That's the Green Revolution for you. Just another neocolonial stance.

Never fear. If climate change is real, the mob at future COPs will be forced to fund Africa's transition.


Quote:

But you initially said he borrowed it.

No I said he should never borrow in US dollars; you claimed he lent petro dollars ie US dollars. 


Quote:

So how did he describe this GFC? That Australian house prices would fall by 40%.

He predicted the GFC, when main-streamers had no idea.

Now as the detail of the OZ housing market, he was wrong. 


Quote:

That Australian debt to GDP would be 160%.

" Australia household debt accounted for 129.2 % of the country's Nominal GDP in Dec 2020"

add on the public debt 40%.


Quote:

That Australia would be in recession long before debt to GDP  ratio fell

Oz had experienced per capita GDP declines  before Covid.

Meanwhile the UK treasurer is bemoaning the the fact that governments "are being forced to experiment with MMT" as a result of the huge run up in covid debt (Guardian article today)

Of course he lists 7 reasons why MMT is flawed, and bleats about inflation, but he doesn't say HOW governments could have dealt with a situation with half the nation's work-force locked up at home.....


Quote:

And yet you can't provide anything but can, could and may. Why is that?

I know you won't shut yourself in your garage with the fossil engine running....


Quote:

Wow are you that brain dead that you think running an engine without adequate ventilation is good. Even electric motors - read up on ozone.

Yeh, without adequate ventilation.... why is that?

As for EVs: "Simple answer: Electric cars use brushless motors, generally either asynchronous induction motors or synchronous permanent magnet motors. They don’t create any ozone at all".



Quote:

Already addressed.

You still  don't understand high density traffic and poeple at busy intersections.  Governments do, and that's why Diesel's days are numbered. 


Quote:

Now you are changing the story line. It is not what can be achieved but the extent to which it will provide stable supply.

https://www.greentechmedia.com/squared/dispatches-from-the-grid-edge/solving-the-renewable-powered-grids-inertia-problem-with-advanced-inverters

"At the theoretical endpoint of this transition, inverter-based generators can shift from “grid-following” systems that match their operations to frequencies created by spinning generators to “grid-forming” systems that actively create the frequency of the networks they’re serving.

That’s how global grid giant Hitachi ABB Power Grids approached the challenge it faced at the Dalrymple ESCRI (Energy Storage for Commercial Renewable Integration) project in South Australia. The 30-megawatt/8-megawatt-hour battery system sits at a substation serving several towns on a peninsula that also hosts about 90 megawatts of wind farms, with only a single connection to the mainland. The battery allows transmission grid operator ElectraNet to provide grid stability and prevent outages in case of lightning strikes or other disruptions to the line.

Further down, mention of a "virtual synchronous machine"... highly technical but the solutions for grid stability with 100% renewables are well on the way.  Meantime, let's get Snowy 2.0 up and running, and roll out as much solar and wind as possible.

Google article: "South Australia takes another big leap towards 100 per cent wind and solar"

"The rapid transition of the South Australia grid towards a world-first target of net 100 per cent wind and solar has taken another stunning leap forward, with the amount of gas generation slashed by half, allowing wind energy to set a new record of its own.

"South Australia regularly reaches levels of more than 100 per cent wind and solar  – in fact it has done that for all but three days since the start of October

(written 18th november)  Some days the electricity is free with the excess sent to Victoria via the interconnector.

Same result for all of Nov. (I can't find the latest updated article which I read yesterday). 

Exciting times we live in!

thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 10^th, 2021 at 5:17pm:

Irrelevent... pass.

Nope it is either a meritocracy or it is not. It can't be based on gender. ::) ::)


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 10^th, 2021 at 5:17pm:

yes... (haven't you got google...)

So what is it. Is it in Yuan or someone's guesstimate?


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 10^th, 2021 at 5:17pm:

The US designed the IMF, to benefit the US.

uhuh. ;)


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 10^th, 2021 at 5:17pm:

Never fear. If climate change is real, the mob at future COPs will be forced to fund Africa's transition.

What transition is that? From no reliable energy to what? ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 10^th, 2021 at 5:17pm:

No I said he should never borrow in US dollars; you claimed he lent petro dollars ie US dollars.

he lent in whatever currency he wanted. I wasn't using it as a US denominated position. ;)


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 10^th, 2021 at 5:17pm:

He predicted the GFC, when main-streamers had no idea.

He predicted a recession. The basis of his prediction was1. that house prices were too high in Australia and would fall  to 40%.


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 10^th, 2021 at 5:17pm:

" Australia household debt accounted for 129.2 % of the country's Nominal GDP in Dec 2020" add on the public debt 40%.

He said the debt ratio would be 160% by 2007 in 2006. ;D ;D ;D


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 10^th, 2021 at 5:17pm:

Oz had experienced per capita GDP declines  before Covid.

Another of his pre-GFC predictions - 2006  ;D ;D ;D ;D

In 2008 he said Australia would have up to 20% unemployment. Also Australia would have a severe recession possibly depression. He also claimed the Australian property bubble started at various times - 1964, 1983 and 1988.


So at least those of his pre-GFC predictions for Australia were wrong. But hey he claimed to predicted the GFC and all on the wrong conclusions. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 10^th, 2021 at 5:17pm:

I know you won't shut yourself in your garage with the fossil engine running.

because I am not you. ::)


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 10^th, 2021 at 5:17pm:

As for EVs: "Simple answer: Electric cars use brushless motors, generally either asynchronous induction motors or synchronous permanent magnet motors. They don’t create any ozone at all".

You really are a know nothing.

"Any electric circuit with more than about 2.5 volts applied, can make some ozone. The the electric motor is sealed, it usually does not make much ozone."

https://www.quora.com/Do-electric-vehicles-create-ozone?share=1

"Two of the largest emitters of these pollutants are vehicles and electricity generating units (EGUs) but as Plug-in Hybrid Electric Vehicles (PHEVs) have risen in popularity over the past decade the positive impact on the environment due to lack of fossil fuel exhaust fumes is offset by increased ozone."

https://www.science20.com/news_articles/solving_ozone_problem_caused_electric_cars-78149


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 10^th, 2021 at 5:17pm:

You still  don't understand high density traffic and poeple at busy intersections.  Governments do, and that's why Diesel's days are numbered.

I understand it it quite well. You however seem not to. Every breeze dispels emissions, you just can't do it in a clean room. ;)


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 10^th, 2021 at 5:17pm:

"At the theoretical endpoint of this transition, inverter-based generators can shift from “grid-following” systems that match their operations to frequencies created by spinning generators to “grid-forming” systems that actively create the frequency of the networks they’re serving.

Oh theoretical. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 10^th, 2021 at 5:17pm:

The battery allows transmission grid operator ElectraNet to provide grid stability and prevent outages in case of lightning strikes or other disruptions to the line.

oh the battery does all that. ;D ;D ;D ;D


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 10^th, 2021 at 5:17pm:

Further down, mention of a "virtual synchronous machine"... highly technical but the solutions for grid stability with 100% renewables are well on the way.

Oh only "well on the way". ;D ;D ;D ;D


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 10^th, 2021 at 5:17pm:

"South Australia regularly reaches levels of more than 100 per cent wind and solar  – in fact it has done that for all but three days since the start of October

Yea. On average.

Linked article -

" 12.20pm grid time (AEST, or 1250 local time in Adelaide) the combination of rooftop solar (1275MW, or 80.9 per cent of local demand) and large scale solar (331MW, or 21 per cent) delivered a combined 101.9 per cent of local state demand for a 5-minute period."

https://reneweconomy.com.au/solar-meets-more-than-100-per-cent-of-local-demand-in-south-australia-again/

original article -

"But often the amount of wind and solar that is generated has to be constrained to ensure that a certain amount of gas generation can supply “system strength” and keep the grid stable."

lee wrote on Dec 10^th, 2021 at 6:19pm:

Nope it is either a meritocracy or it is not.

What's your gender hang up?



Quote:

So what is it. Is it in Yuan or someone's guesstimate?

No, in $US equivalent. 



Quote:

uhuh.

glad you conceded the irrefutable. ...


Quote:

What transition is that? From no reliable energy to what

Go back to sleep; your absolutist CO2 denialism is of no interest to researchers and engineers who are designing the 100% renewables economy.

[quote]he lent in whatever currency he wanted. I wasn't using it as a US denominated position.[/quote]

either way,  he committed a cardinal sin in MMT. 

Note: "Petrodollars are oil revenues denominated in U.S. dollars."


Quote:

He said the debt ratio would be 160% by 2007 in 2006.

Whatever, the mainstreamers were caught sleeping at the wheel; they certainly have no idea how the economy works. 


Quote:

So at least those of his pre-GFC predictions for Australia were wrong. But hey he claimed to predicted the GFC and all on the wrong conclusions.

Keen didn't claim that, the authors of the linked article nominated Keen as one of the first economists in the world to
predict the GFC. And other MMT economists also predicted it, eg Bill Mitchell (can't find a link at present)

Meanwhile here is the Das article, bemoaning the 'enforced' experiment with MMT:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/dec/10/spending-without-taxing-now-were-all-guinea-pigs-in-an-endless-money-experiment?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other

He mostly reveals he doesn't understand MMT, and rejects its solutions; but he certainly acknowledges we are confronted by a "serious situation", for which he offers no solutions apart from complaining about MMT...


Quote:

because I am not you.

I can only hope you don't lock yourself in with the ICE running...


Quote:

You really are a know nothing.

I know no government on the planet accepts that EVs release dangerous levels of ozone, whereas all governments accept deisels emit dangerous levels of poisonous gases. It's not me you will have to argue with...


Quote:

https://www.quora.com/Do-electric-vehicles-create-ozone?share=1 "Two of the largest emitters of these pollutants are vehicles and electricity generating units (EGUs) but as Plug-in Hybrid Electric Vehicles (PHEVs) have risen in popularity over the past decade the positive impact on the environment due to lack of fossil fuel exhaust fumes is offset by increased ozone." https://www.science20.com/news_articles/solving_ozone_problem_caused_electric_cars-78149

Note the highlighted : not EV vehicles, as for hybrids, they only divert poisonous emissions from built up areas (when they are powered by their electric motor), to the  environment when they are powered by  filthy fossil fuels.   


Quote:

I understand it it quite well. You however seem not to. Every breeze dispels emissions, you just can't do it in a clean room.

er a windless day...high buildings entrapping poisonous gases etc..



Quote:

Oh theoretical.

..at the end point: let's get on with the job, and simultaneously identify research yet to be funded.


Quote:

oh the battery does all that.

...will DO that (in the future) in conjunction with the yet to be rolled out smart grid, and long term backup. 



Quote:

Oh only "well on the way".

That's correct, battery technology is advancing rapidly.


Quote:

Yea. On average. "But often the amount of wind and solar that is generated has to be constrained to ensure that a certain amount of gas generation can supply “system strength”

That's because we don't have a smart grid connected to several Snowy2.0 equivalents yet.

Be patient.

thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 12^th, 2021 at 1:38pm:

What's your gender hang up?

Meritocracy - promotion on merit. Gender knows no restriction. What is your hangup? ::)


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 12^th, 2021 at 1:38pm:

No, in $US equivalent.

A guesstimate.

"Q3: What does China actually spend on its military, and how does it compare to other major military powers?

A3: Estimates released by external organizations paint a more complete picture of what China actually spends on its military by accounting for expenditure outside the official budget."

https://www.csis.org/analysis/understanding-chinas-2021-defense-budget


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 12^th, 2021 at 1:38pm:

glad you conceded the irrefutable.

Good to see you have a sense of humour. So where is the Control. ;D ;D ;D ;D


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 12^th, 2021 at 1:38pm:

either way,  he committed a cardinal sin in MMT.

Good to know. perhaps you can advise Maduro. ;D ;D ;D


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 12^th, 2021 at 1:38pm:

Whatever, the mainstreamers were caught sleeping at the wheel; they certainly have no idea how the economy works.

Whatever. he got his assumptions wrong. So he made his predictions on bad assumptions. But hey he made a prediction so it's all good. ;D ;D ;D ;D


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 12^th, 2021 at 1:38pm:

Keen didn't claim that, the authors of the linked article nominated Keen as one of the first economists in the world to predict the GFC.

So he didn't predict the GFC it was just a puff piece. ;D ;D ;D

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/dec/10/spending-without-taxing-now-were-all-guinea-pigs-in-an-endless-money-experiment?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other

Oh the garudian that's believable - not. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 12^th, 2021 at 1:38pm:

I can only hope you don't lock yourself in with the ICE running...

Poor petal.  You seem severely afflicted with CO Poisoning. ;)


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 12^th, 2021 at 1:38pm:

I know no government on the planet accepts that EVs release dangerous levels of ozone, whereas all governments accept deisels emit dangerous levels of poisonous gases. It's not me you will have to argue with...

Ah an appeal to authority. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 12^th, 2021 at 1:38pm:

Note the highlighted : not EV vehicles, as for hybrids, they only divert poisonous emissions from built up areas (when they are powered by their electric motor), to the  environment when they are powered by  filthy fossil fuels.

Poor petal it is the electric part that emits ozone. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 12^th, 2021 at 1:38pm:

er a windless day...high buildings entrapping poisonous gases etc..

Ah windless days also affect ozone emissions. ::)


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 12^th, 2021 at 1:38pm:

...will DO that (in the future) in conjunction with the yet to be rolled out smart grid, and long term backup.

Ah WILL do. So no current design DOES that. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 12^th, 2021 at 1:38pm:

That's correct, battery technology is advancing rapidly.

Rubbish. Provide a link. Your assertions carry no weight. ::)


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 12^th, 2021 at 1:38pm:

That's because we don't have a smart grid connected to several Snowy2.0 equivalents yet.

And we don't have such a system designed. Technology should precede not follow the dreams. ::)

lee wrote on Dec 12^th, 2021 at 8:24pm:

Meritocracy - promotion on merit. Gender knows no restriction. What is your hangup?

No hangup, just an observation that a consensus one-party meritocracy might be able to achieve sustainable national development with common prosperity, better than by election of adversarial two-party "democratic" rabbles of blind-leading-the-blind self-interested no-hopers, "freedom fighters", and conspiracy theorists. 

We live in exciting times...the next decade will present a clearer picture of the relative merits of the two systems.      


Quote:

A guesstimate. "Q3: What does China actually spend on its military, and how does it compare to other major military powers? A3: Estimates released by external organizations paint a more complete picture of what China actually spends on its military by accounting for expenditure outside the official budget."

Well we can see 12 US carrier fleets on the high seas ( inc. sailing in the Tawain straits...); China has 2 such fleets, confined to Chinese waters. 

But if Chinese missile technology renders the 12 US fleets obsolete, while spending a fraction of what the Pentagon does to maintain those fleets, so be it...


Quote:

Whatever. he got his assumptions wrong. So he made his predictions on bad assumptions. But hey he made a prediction so it's all good.

Wrong; his predictions re the actual outcomes of the crisis were off the mark, but he correctly predicted the occurrence of the crisis, and identified its cause, namely a bank-driven, private-debt-binge  aka 'subprime lending'.


Quote:

Oh the garudian that's believable - not.

You can disagree with the analysis, but you cannot deny the fact governments HAD to issue vast amounts of debt...by typing some numbers into computers...to avoid people dying like flies from covid, or unable to pay household bills while forced into unemployment in locked-down economies.



Quote:

You seem severely afflicted with CO Poisoning.

Bad joke. Whereas you are an 'anti-anti'- CO2 ideologue.


Quote:

Ah an appeal to authority.

True, but in this case, 193 governments say you lose, and the prospect of free electricity is enticing....


Quote:

Poor petal it is the electric part that emits ozone.

The world's car manufacturers are all converting to EVs, because.....? 


Quote:

Rubbish. Provide a link. Your assertions carry no weight.

again, apparently 193 nations and the world's vehicle manufacturers disagree with you.


Quote:

And we don't have such a system designed. Technology should precede not follow the dreams. ::)

Snowy 2.0 will be operational by mid decade. Batteries and smart grid can get us to at least 60% renewables by then.

The technology you speak of is not needed yet,  to change the balance from fossils to renewables  ASAP; though certainly research for any technology that IS needed to achieve  100% renewables needs to be funded starting now (which of course you will resist)

thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 13^th, 2021 at 3:10pm:

No hangup, just an observation that a consensus one-party meritocracy might be able to achieve sustainable national development with common prosperity, better than by election of adversarial two-party "democratic" rabbles of blind-leading-the-blind self-interested no-hopers, "freedom fighters", and conspiracy theorists.

Just a meritocracy not based on merit. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 13^th, 2021 at 3:10pm:

But if Chinese missile technology renders the 12 US fleets obsolete, while spending a fraction of what the Pentagon does to maintain those fleets, so be it...

Where do you get your magical thinking? What fraction?


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 13^th, 2021 at 3:10pm:

Wrong; his predictions re the actual outcomes of the crisis were off the mark, but he correctly predicted the occurrence of the crisis, and identified its cause, namely a bank-driven, private-debt-binge  aka 'subprime lending'.

Did he? The "actual outcomes of the crisis were off the mark" No they were his benchmarks.  Each one a separate benchmark. He failed abysmally. The " I got the numbers wrong but I was really right" doesn't cut it. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 13^th, 2021 at 3:10pm:

You can disagree with the analysis, but you cannot deny the fact governments HAD to issue vast amounts of debt...by typing some numbers into computers...to avoid people dying like flies from covid, or unable to pay household bills while forced into unemployment in locked-down economies.

And nothing to do with MMT. ;D ;D ;D


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 13^th, 2021 at 3:10pm:

Bad joke. Whereas you are an 'anti-anti'- CO2 ideologue.

I go where the science goes. Climate models are not science. ;)


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 13^th, 2021 at 3:10pm:

True, but in this case, 193 governments say you lose, and the prospect of free electricity is enticing....

Yeah freeeee electricity. ;D ;D ;D ;D So why are  Germany and the UK using more fossil fueled electricity? ;)


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 13^th, 2021 at 3:10pm:

The world's car manufacturers are all converting to EVs, because.....?

Wrong. That say they are planning to. Plans are not accomplished facts. ::)


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 13^th, 2021 at 3:10pm:

again, apparently 193 nations and the world's vehicle manufacturers disagree with you.

They do. So what did China actually say? India? Africa in general?  ;D ;D ;D ;


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 13^th, 2021 at 3:10pm:

Snowy 2.0 will be operational by mid decade. Batteries and smart grid can get us to at least 60% renewables by then.

That is a hope. There is no current design or experimental plant. ;D ;D ;D ;D


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 13^th, 2021 at 3:10pm:

The technology you speak of is not needed yet,  to change the balance from fossils to renewables  ASAP; though certainly research for any technology that IS needed to achieve  100% renewables needs to be funded starting now (which of course you will resist)

Nope. Companies can fund what they like. Feel good government "projects" should not be a part of it. If the returns are good the investors will flock. Just no real subsidies as opposed to the IMF calling tax deductions, that even solar and wind can use, subsidies. ::)

lee wrote on Dec 13^th, 2021 at 8:13pm:

Just a meritocracy not based on merit

Nonsense. Commitment to the goal - national development and common prosperity - helps, but the most able rise up by consensus through the ranks of the party, armed with advice from the nation's scientific institutions.


Quote:

Where do you get your magical thinking? What fraction?

Don't divert. The US is currently the biggest economy,  spends more on 'defense'  and has the biggest stick...eg, 800 overseas bases, China....NONE. So wake up: China will soon have the biggest economy and have the biggest stick, so reform of the UNSC might come in handy.... 


Quote:

Did he? The "actual outcomes of the crisis were off the mark" No they were his benchmarks.  Each one a separate benchmark. He failed abysmally. The " I got the numbers wrong but I was really right" doesn't cut it.

Meanwhile the mainstream didn't even SEE the GFC coming.


Quote:

And nothing to do with MMT.

You forgot Das already?: the "covid-enforced experiment with MMT..."


Quote:

I go where the science goes. Climate models are not science.

MMT economists predicted the GFC;  likewise AGW scientist's predictions are too significant to ignore merely  because the climate is difficult to model accurately.

The EU and the UK (like all nations abused by mainstream economic orthodoxy, ie all of us) don't understand resources, not money, is  the issue, so they are dragging their feet on investment in renewables while they are trying to work out how to get the reluctant private sector to come up with the money (ie $trillions in 'green' investment) via carbon taxes which the electorate don't want. 


Quote:

Wrong. That say they are planning to. Plans are not accomplished facts.

Dragging you kicking and screaming....


Quote:

So what did China actually say? India? Africa in general?

Everyone has signed up to zero emissions, didn't you know?

But the argument over the date is related to the fight over who is going to pay, as always, courtesy of flat-earth economic orthodoxy which thinks money not resources is the controlling factor; they have it exactly back to front, of course.  See:

http://www.politicalforum.com/index.php?threads/mmt-overcoming-the-political-divide.569365/

"Everything You Thought You Knew About Economics May Be Wrong".

and

http://bilbo.economicoutlook.net/blog/?p=48850

"Central banks are resisting the inflation panic hype from the financial markets – and we are better off as a result".



Quote:

That is a hope. There is no current design or experimental plant.

Snowy 2.0 is fully designed, and the associated smart grid technology is proceeding apace.


Quote:

Nope. Companies can fund what they like. Feel good government "projects" should not be a part of it. If the returns are good the investors will flock. Just no real subsidies as opposed to the IMF calling tax deductions, that even solar and wind can use, subsidies.

The private sector is too conflicted; they want carbon taxes  which the electorate don't want, and they want to retain their fat fossil profits, so of course  they will not invest fast enough  in renewables or green R&D. Only governments will do that.

thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 14^th, 2021 at 1:23pm:

Commitment to the goal - national development and common prosperity - helps, but the most able rise up by consensus through the ranks of the party, armed with advice from the nation's scientific institutions.

Consensus is not merit based either. You are a complete failure.


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 14^th, 2021 at 1:23pm:

So wake up: China will soon have the biggest economy and have the biggest stick, so reform of the UNSC might come in handy....

poor petal. You don't know schist.


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 14^th, 2021 at 1:23pm:

Meanwhile the mainstream didn't even SEE the GFC coming.

And because they didn't he was right for all the wrong reasons? ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Another fail. you didn't even know about his multitude of predictions that would cause a recession. And tried to pretend they were post-GFC. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 14^th, 2021 at 1:23pm:

You forgot Das already?: the "covid-enforced experiment with MMT..."

No petal. One lonely writer. And no economist.


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 14^th, 2021 at 1:23pm:

MMT economists predicted the GFC;  likewise AGW scientist's predictions are too significant to ignore merely  because the climate is difficult to model accurately.

MMT'ers like to claim it.. But they haven't shown they can control the economy. ;)


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 14^th, 2021 at 1:23pm:

AGW scientist's predictions are too significant to ignore merely  because the climate is difficult to model accurately.

Too significant? How are they significant? ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

According to the World Meteorological Organisation (WMO), Climate is merely 30 years of weather. They originally said 30 years was the best data available. And yet organisations reckon they know a global temperature to 1/100 of a degree. Global temperatures according to  Gavin Schmidt can only be estimated to 0.5C and I have doubts about that. ;)


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 14^th, 2021 at 1:23pm:

Dragging you kicking and screaming....

That's me dragging you kicking and screaming towards the light ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 14^th, 2021 at 1:23pm:

Everyone has signed up to zero emissions, didn't you know?

"According to the Energy and Climate Intelligence Unit’s Net Zero Tracker, Canada, Denmark, the EU, France, Germany, Hungary, Japan, the Republic of Korea, Luxembourg, New Zealand, Spain, Sweden, and the U.K. have signed net-zero commitments into law, with Germany and Sweden aiming to reach carbon neutrality already by 2045. Chile, Fiji, and Ireland have proposed net-zero legislation. Forty-five countries, including major emitters such as China and the U.S., have net-zero goals reflected in policy documents, [highlight]and almost 80 are considering targets[/highlight]."

https://www.pv-magazine.com/2021/11/24/cop26-and-solar-satellites-for-net-zero-emissions

OOPS. India by 2070. China by 2060.  But we are told it is an "existential" crisis. Surely the big emitters, which is NOT Australia, should be doing it now. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 14^th, 2021 at 1:23pm:

Snowy 2.0 is fully designed, and the associated smart grid technology is proceeding apace.

Proof on the smart grid? ::)


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 14^th, 2021 at 1:23pm:

The private sector is too conflicted; they want carbon taxes  which the electorate don't want, and they want to retain their fat fossil profits, so of course  they will not invest fast enough  in renewables or green R&D.

They want a fair return. Which is more than Solar and wind - they get paid when there is too little or too much

Seeing as you can't tell your a*se from your elbow - I'm off - Bye.

Something has to be done about these big corporations paying little or no tax....Why does the Government allow this to happen???

:-? :-? :-?

philperth2010 wrote on Dec 14^th, 2021 at 5:29pm:

Something has to be done about these big corporations paying little or no tax....Why does the Government allow this to happen??? :-? :-? :-?

Because global trade and global companies have developed in the absence of an effective international  financial system.

Only recently: "The G7's call for a 15% minimum tax is ground-breaking but a long way from reality. Businesses should engage with broader global tax reforms. The G7 is nudging 139 countries to finish an OECD project to overhaul tax laws affecting cross-border businesses". 5 July 2021

lee wrote on Dec 14^th, 2021 at 4:30pm:

Quote: Consensus is not merit based either. With a defined goal, it is. The most able are chosen by consensus and they take advice from the most qualified. Companies and political parties use consensus within their organisations;  no reason why a one-party meritocracy cannot use the same mechanism, to govern a nation.  [quote]And because they didn't he was right for all the wrong reasons?

No, because they didn't predict the GFC, whereas he did, while correctly identifying the private debt binge as the cause.


Quote:

Another fail. you didn't even know about his multitude of predictions that would cause a recession. And tried to pretend they were post-GFC

Irrelevant, Keen was merely one of several MMT economists who predicted the private debt binge would end badly, requiring capitalism to be bailed out by the public sector...AGAIN...


Quote:

One lonely writer. And no economist.

"Das received bachelor's degrees in Commerce and Law from the University of New South Wales followed by an MBA from the Australian Graduate School of Management.[1]"

So not an economist...which explains why he hasn't studied MMT and hence incorrectly concluded MMT isn't the solution.
His comments were recently refuted in Bill Mitchell's MMT  blog.


Quote:

MMT'ers like to claim it.. But they haven't shown they can control the economy

 

The mainstream can't control it, and MMT has explained why; it's time for a new approach. Nice to know that governments don't actually have to go broke because of covid debt, or force their populations to choose between starving or dying of covid  because the government  has "run out of money" ...as Bolsanaro ridiculously claimed in Brazil last year.   


Quote:

Too significant? How are they significant?

Tonight's  TV report on the Antartic ice sheet decline? 


Quote:

According to the World Meteorological Organisation (WMO), Climate is merely 30 years of weather. They originally said 30 years was the best data available. And yet organisations reckon they know a global temperature to 1/100 of a degree. Global temperatures according to  Gavin Schmidt can only be estimated to 0.5C and I have doubts about that.

What if heat is being absorbed by the oceans, before showing up as atmospheric temp. rises?


Quote:

"According to the Energy and Climate Intelligence Unit’s Net Zero Tracker, Canada, Denmark, the EU, France, Germany, Hungary, Japan, the Republic of Korea, Luxembourg, New Zealand, Spain, Sweden, and the U.K. have signed net-zero commitments into law, with Germany and Sweden aiming to reach carbon neutrality already by 2045. Chile, Fiji, and Ireland have proposed net-zero legislation. Forty-five countries, including major emitters such as China and the U.S., have net-zero goals reflected in policy documents, [highlight]and almost 80 are considering targets[/highlight]." https://www.pv-magazine.com/2021/11/24/cop26-and-solar-satellites-for-net-zero-emissions OOPS. India by 2070. China by 2060.  But we are told it is an "existential" crisis. Surely the big emitters, which is NOT Australia, should be doing it now.

Like I said, the private sector is too conflicted to move, and governments are too beholden by mainstream economic orthodoxy, so are reduced to pointing fingers at one-another for "not doing enough".  And obviously governments do NOT  believe it is an 'existential' crisis; if they did, all factories would immediately be commandeered by the government for  production of  green infrastructure, in a type of planned 'war' economy...


Quote:

Proof on the smart grid? ::)

Patience, it will be wondrous in your lifetime.


Quote:

They want a fair return. Which is more than Solar and wind - they get paid when there is too little or too much

The private sector fossil industry wants to keep gouging consumers.


Quote:

Seeing as you can't tell your a*se from your elbow - I'm off - Bye.

That will certainly be a relief for at least one reader of this thread, who I hope - using the links I supplied - can now explore the significance of what the BIS itself said: "Central banks might have to buy the fossil industry. "

thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 14^th, 2021 at 8:52pm:

Tonight's  TV report on the Antartic ice sheet decline?

Oh noes. MAY shatter?  ;D ;D ;D ;D


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 14^th, 2021 at 8:52pm:

What if heat is being absorbed by the oceans, before showing up as atmospheric temp. rises?

The oceans have a far greater heat capacity than the atmosphere. So how much extra heat is required to heat the oceans by 0.1C? ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

"The Southern Ocean (>30° S) has taken up a large amount of anthropogenic heat north of the Subantarctic Front (SAF) of the Antarctic Circumpolar Current (ACC). Poor sampling before the 1990s and decadal variability have heretofore masked the ocean’s dynamic response to this warming. Here we use the lengthening satellite altimetry and Argo float records to show robust acceleration of zonally averaged Southern Ocean zonal flow at 48° S–58° S"

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41558-021-01212-5

Wow.48-58 South? That's not even IN the Antarctic Circle. And apparently it is warming twice as fast as the Northern Hemisphere where the warming is. iI guess Northern Hemisphere waters are migrating, the first climate refugees. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 14^th, 2021 at 8:52pm:

Like I said, the private sector is too conflicted to move, and governments are too beholden by mainstream economic orthodoxy, so are reduced to pointing fingers at one-another for "not doing enough".  And obviously governments do NOT  believe it is an 'existential' crisis; if they did, all factories would immediately be commandeered by the government for  production of  green infrastructure, in a type of planned 'war' economy...

poor petal you were the one claimed EVERYONE had signed up. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 14^th, 2021 at 8:52pm:

The private sector fossil industry wants to keep gouging consumers.

And not those paragons of virtue solar and wind? ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

With this policy, the Greens are "preaching to the converted." Anything they achieve will have to be done with a major party, and that will mean compromise and focus on the "doable." Their general idea is good, but they need focus, perhaps starting with a reduction in subsidies for the Petroleum industry.

issuevoter wrote on Dec 15^th, 2021 at 8:40am:

With this policy, the Greens are "preaching to the converted." Anything they achieve will have to be done with a major party, and that will mean compromise and focus on the "doable." Their general idea is good, but they need focus, perhaps starting with a reduction in subsidies for the Petroleum industry.

The Greens are hoping the general current strong support for climate action will give them the balance of power in the Senate...and in combination with enough like-minded independents in the Reps.,  control over a minority government.  Not long to wait to test that theory....

Certainly these independents challenging mainly Liberal incumbents are causing ScoMo some grief.

thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 15^th, 2021 at 12:28pm:

The Greens are hoping the general current strong support for climate action will give them the balance of power in the Senate...and in combination with enough like-minded independents in the Reps.,  control over a minority government.

Is that before or after voters are told the hit to the hip pocket? Or will it again be MMT'ers Paradise?

lee wrote on Dec 14^th, 2021 at 9:56pm:

Oh noes. MAY shatter?

That's right: aka as the"Doomsday" scenario.  You still want to ignore the IPCC?


Quote:

The oceans have a far greater heat capacity than the atmosphere. So how much extra heat is required to heat the oceans by 0.1C?

The point is AGW may melt polar ice over the ocean faster than rises in atmospheric temp. ?


Quote:

I guess Northern Hemisphere waters are migrating, the first climate refugees.

Yes.


Quote:

poor petal you were the one claimed EVERYONE had signed up.

Everyone is signed up, or considering signing up, which is the reality. But no-one wants to pay for the transition....because they still think money is a scarce commodity.  They will change their tune if extinction really is on the horizon...


Quote:

And not those paragons of virtue solar and wind?

Nationalized, these are indeed free (apart from opportunity cost). No need to gouge consumers, like the filthy fossil industry does.

lee wrote on Dec 15^th, 2021 at 12:45pm:

Is that before or after voters are told the hit to the hip pocket? Or will it again be MMT'ers Paradise?

You are catching on at last. The Greens are MMT-literate, I'm told; they just don't want to waste time explaining economics  to flat-earthers like yourself.

Meanwhile, maybe you can explain why  the government had to go into debt to the tune of $1 trillion, to pay peoples' bills in a pandemic-enforced lockdown?

Meanwhile China that bastion of freedom and much loved "Climate Friend" has made a new announcement -

"Serving and former Chinese senior officials have urged caution on the path towards carbon neutrality, echoing the leadership’s assessment that climate targets “can’t be achieved in just one battle”.

Addressing a forum in Beijing on Saturday, former finance minister Lou Jiwei said that while China had said it would “strive to” reach peak carbon emissions before 2030 and carbon neutrality before 2060, there was a difference between this and “ensuring [those targets would be achieved]”.

“We are a developing country. We should bear common but differentiated responsibilities that are different from developed countries,” Lou told the gathering organised by the China Centre for International Economic Exchanges."

https://www.scmp.com/news/china/diplomacy/article/3159418/caution-carbon-china-realises-key-role-coal-energy-mix

lee wrote on Dec 15^th, 2021 at 1:02pm:

Meanwhile China that bastion of freedom and much loved "Climate Friend" has made a new announcement - "Serving and former Chinese senior officials have urged caution on the path towards carbon neutrality, echoing the leadership’s assessment that climate targets “can’t be achieved in just one battle”. Addressing a forum in Beijing on Saturday, former finance minister Lou Jiwei said that while China had said it would “strive to” reach peak carbon emissions before 2030 and carbon neutrality before 2060, there was a difference between this and “ensuring [those targets would be achieved]”. “We are a developing country. We should bear common but differentiated responsibilities that are different from developed countries,” Lou told the gathering organised by the China Centre for International Economic Exchanges." https://www.scmp.com/news/china/diplomacy/article/3159418/caution-carbon-china-realises-key-role-coal-energy-mix

Of course; and China too is under the baleful influence of Western-trained economists, and is fiddling around with carbon trading schemes.

Meanwhile "developed" Germany and the UK both relied more on coal in the last 2 months, compared with the same time last year....

"23 Sept 2021 — Germany: Coal-fired power generation is coming back · increase in electricity generation of almost 38 percent in the first half of 2021 compared to last year..."

The pandemic didn't help, I suppose.

 

thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 15^th, 2021 at 1:52pm:

"23 Sept 2021 — Germany: Coal-fired power generation is coming back · increase in electricity generation of almost 38 percent in the first half of 2021 compared to last year..." The pandemic didn't help, I suppose.

Strange that you didn't mention wind. Because that is a major cause of increased fossil fuel use. Average use about 23% or 13GW. But some days down to 4GW in November.  Installed capacity is 62GW.

lee wrote on Dec 15^th, 2021 at 4:43pm:

Strange that you didn't mention wind. Because that is a major cause of increased fossil fuel use. Average use about 23% or 13GW. But some days down to 4GW in November.  Installed capacity is 62GW.

So...back to the Sahara....which you spent a good amount of time rubbishing, claiming engineers can't solve the problems.

So perhaps you are now ready to  explain why  the sovereign currency-issuing government had to go into debt to the tune of $1 trillion, to pay peoples' essential (recurring) bills in a pandemic-enforced lock-down?

thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 15^th, 2021 at 5:52pm:

So...back to the Sahara....which you spent a good amount of time rubbishing, claiming engineers can't solve the problems.

I have never said engineer's can't solve problems. Why do you lie?

You said just put solar panels on stands and elevate them. I said the sandstorms would still do the same damage. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 15^th, 2021 at 5:52pm:

So perhaps you are now ready to  explain why  the sovereign currency-issuing government had to go into debt to the tune of $1 trillion, to pay peoples' essential (recurring) bills in a pandemic-enforced lock-down?

No. Are you ready to explain why the CCP is afraid of world opinion and that's why they aren't using MMT? They are a sovereign currency nation.  ;)

lee wrote on Dec 15^th, 2021 at 7:55pm:

I have never said engineer's can't solve problems. Why do you lie? You said just put solar panels on stands and elevate them. I said the sandstorms would still do the same damage.

Deploying PVs in the Sahara is - ultimately - an engineering problem to be solved in conjunction with other disciplines. 


Quote:

No. Are you ready to explain why the CCP is afraid of world opinion and that's why they aren't using MMT? They are a sovereign currency nation.

So I will grant you more time to consider my question re the insanity of forcing sovereign currency-issuing governments to go into massive debt, to pay the essential bills of locked-down workers in a pandemic.

OTOH,  I can of course answer your question straightaway.

The CCP is currently analyzing  the policies which resulted in China's spectacular growth over the last 4 decades, following  the in-part adoption of free market principles  ("socialism with Chinese characteristics").   

Nothing to do with MMT...and they are still relying on their Western-educated economists in the PBofC to show the way forward. Hence the Evergrande disaster which absolutely should/could have been avoided, in China.

[Whereas the subprime-induced GFC disaster originating in the US is the very essence of unregulated, financialized capitalism].

But now China's  export-driven  growth model is being increasingly shut-off to China, by a paranoid US backed by like-minded allies,  seeking to maintain global hegemony.   

As to "being afraid of world opinion"; internally, China just wants to get on with running their own country the way they see fit, while externally conforming with WTO rules.

Interestingly,  the mainland-Taiwan ideological dispute (yes, the people on Taiwan are Chinese....) is an extreme form of the hyper-partisanship currently ravaging  the democracies, as democratic governance itself  increasingly fails to address the needs of the people.

thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 16^th, 2021 at 11:28am:

Deploying PVs in the Sahara is - ultimately - an engineering problem to be solved in conjunction with other disciplines.

Yeah put storm covers over them. Mechanical sweeper to sweep off the sand when the storm finishes.Easy wasn't it? ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 16^th, 2021 at 11:28am:

As to "being afraid of world opinion"; internally, China just wants to get on with running their own country the way they see fit, while externally conforming with WTO rules.

And that does not seem to fit the MMT "model". ;)


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 16^th, 2021 at 11:28am:

[Whereas the subprime-induced GFC disaster originating in the US is the very essence of unregulated, financialized capitalism].

So nothing to do with Keen's vision for what Australia was going to go through. Australia operates differently to the USA. ;D ;D ;D ;D


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 16^th, 2021 at 11:28am:

But now China's  export-driven  growth model is being increasingly shut-off to China, by a paranoid US backed by like-minded allies,  seeking to maintain global hegemony.

Oh is that the reason. Nothing to do with China's expansion dreams at all. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

lee wrote on Dec 16^th, 2021 at 12:08pm:

Yeah put storm covers over them. Mechanical sweeper to sweep off the sand when the storm finishes.Easy wasn't it?

So you are saying it's impossible to deploy PVs to any extent in all of the Sahara...


Quote:

And that does not seem to fit the MMT "model".

 

China would be unbeatable if it's Western trained economists became aware of MMT.


Quote:

So nothing to do with Keen's vision for what Australia was going to go through. Australia operates differently to the USA

Oz like everyone else was a victim of the GFC, not an an originator of it.

But interestingly, Frydenberg appears to be sufficiently acquainted with MMT, to finally ditch Abbott's 'debt and deficit disaster' narrative ....(remember that?)   'Budget repair' is best achieved by growing the economy,  Frydenberg is now telling the ABC's hysterical 'balanced-budget' mainstream journalists.


Quote:

Oh is that the reason. Nothing to do with China's expansion dreams at all.

China doesn't have expansion dreams. That is US propaganda.  Even Biden says there is One China.... though he wants to destroy the CCP, of course, because the CCP is achieving national development miracles....note: the US didn't give two hoots about the CCP, back in the days when Nixon was looking for an Asian political bulwark against the USSR, and China's economy was the size of India's...

thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 17^th, 2021 at 5:28pm:

But interestingly, Frydenberg appears to be sufficiently acquainted with MMT, to finally ditch Abbott's 'debt and deficit disaster' narrative ....(remember that?)   'Budget repair' is best achieved by growing the economy,  Frydenberg is now telling the ABC's hysterical 'balanced-budget' mainstream journalists.

Meanwhile, the banshee howling of fist-shaking outrage from the Murdoch media about debt and deficit has gone very quiet now that a Coalition government has driven the debt and deficit to unprecedented levels.

thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 17^th, 2021 at 5:28pm:

So you are saying it's impossible to deploy PVs to any extent in all of the Sahara...

I'd say so yes. I have seen reports it is rich in silicon. That of course needs a stable supply for refining. The Conversation is positive towards it, but they don't mention sandstorms or scouring of the PV's. Plenty of "may'ss" and "could's".

https://theconversation.com/solar-panels-in-sahara-could-boost-renewable-energy-but-damage-the-global-climate-heres-why-153992


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 17^th, 2021 at 5:28pm:

China would be unbeatable if it's Western trained economists became aware of MMT.

You mean they are not aware of it when it is being widely touted? ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 17^th, 2021 at 5:28pm:

China doesn't have expansion dreams.

That's why they are building islands in the South China Sea - despite other nations claims. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 17^th, 2021 at 5:28pm:

Even Biden says there is One China...

The original Blank Looks Matter poster child. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 17^th, 2021 at 5:28pm:

Though he wants to destroy the CCP, of course, because the CCP is achieving national development miracles.

On the back of fossil fuels. ;D ;D ;D

lee wrote on Dec 17^th, 2021 at 5:54pm:

I'd say so yes. I have seen reports it is rich in silicon. That of course needs a stable supply for refining. The Conversation is positive towards it, but they don't mention sandstorms or scouring of the PV's. Plenty of "may'ss" and "could's". https://theconversation.com/solar-panels-in-sahara-could-boost-renewable-energy-but-damage-the-global-climate-heres-why-153992

Interesting article. But their "warming" modelling ignores the fact that elimination of the fossil industry eliminates the CO2 AGW hot house effect, allowing  more heat to escape into space.


Quote:

You mean they are not aware of it when it is being widely touted?

'Widely touted' is a relative term. The current flat-earth monetarist orthodoxy is pushed by mainstream economists on behalf of the rich, and  believed by most ordinary people who are easily fooled into  thinking  government budgets are like household budgets. The same forces exist in China, but at least Xi is trying to counteract them with his "common prosperity" narrative, as shown in the CCP's latest attempts to deal with private speculative profit-seeking investments in real-estate, education, and share IPOs. 


Quote:

That's why they are building islands in the South China Sea - despite other nations claims.

China is surrounded by US bases in the Western Pacific; plus the US is encouraging a war in the Taiwan straits. So China needs to establish a foothold in the Pacific. If the US would f**k off home, China would reunite Taiwan with the mainland, and with that buffer, would be less impelled to build defensive island bases in the SCS.


Quote:

The original Blank Looks Matter poster child.

China is catching on fast; they know the only way to reunite Taiwan ("One China") to the mainland is to become strong enough to tell the Pentagon where to go....


Quote:

On the back of fossil fuels.

One of your weaker "arguments". No, on the back of "socialism with Chinese characteristics".

https://ellenbrown.com/2019/06/14/the-american-dream-is-alive-and-well-in-china/

Bam wrote on Dec 17^th, 2021 at 5:42pm:

Meanwhile, the banshee howling of fist-shaking outrage from the Murdoch media about debt and deficit has gone very quiet now that a Coalition government has driven the debt and deficit to unprecedented levels.

So true. Conservatives are notoriously unconcerned by debt and deficits when they are in government. Less understandable is Murdoch's recent about face on climate change.

thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 18^th, 2021 at 12:22pm:

But their "warming" modelling ignores the fact that elimination of the fossil industry eliminates the CO2 AGW hot house effect, allowing  more heat to escape into space.

And yet not shown in real life. Only models. ::)


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 18^th, 2021 at 12:22pm:

The same forces exist in China, but at least Xi is trying to counteract them with his "common prosperity" narrative, as shown in the CCP's latest attempts to deal with private speculative profit-seeking investments in real-estate, education, and share IPOs.

As long as he gets his cut. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 18^th, 2021 at 12:22pm:

If the US would f**k off home, China would reunite Taiwan with the mainland, and with that buffer, would be less impelled to build defensive island bases in the SCS.

Except the Taiwanese don't want it. ;D ;D ;D ;D


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 18^th, 2021 at 12:22pm:

One of your weaker "arguments". No, on the back of "socialism with Chinese characteristics".

On the back of fossil fuels. China has an aspirational "target" of 2060. No mention of any of that in the article. ::)

Is Ellen Brown another one of your MMT'ers? ;)

lee wrote on Dec 18^th, 2021 at 3:34pm:

Quote: And yet not shown in real life. Only models ?? Your linked article posited higher temps via more heat being conducted into the atmosphere from PVs. The article ignored reduction in the CO2 AGW hot-house effect when filthy fossils are eliminated.  [quote]As long as he gets his cut.

That's actually not a debating point, more like an ad hominem. 


Quote:

Except the Taiwanese don't want it

That's no reason for the US to stick its nose into internal Chinese affairs, on ideological grounds. 

The US would object if China supported  Bernie Sanders for President.   


Quote:

On the back of fossil fuels. China has an aspirational "target" of 2060. No mention of any of that in the article.

Spectacular growth in China was powered by coal, while fossils were still  powering most everyone at the same time, so China's rapid growth - compared with the developed world -  has other causes.
btw, renewables in the US and Oz are still only c.20% of energy sources; 2050 is the zero emissions goal in the West.


Quote:

Is Ellen Brown another one of your MMT'ers?

No, she is a public banking advocate; she posits China's spectacular rise to state planning, funded via the  government-owned PBofC alongside market reforms adopted in the 1980s.

thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 19^th, 2021 at 3:49pm:

Your linked article posited higher temps via more heat being conducted into the atmosphere from PVs.

And nothing to do with CO2. ::)


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 19^th, 2021 at 3:49pm:

The article ignored reduction in the CO2 AGW hot-house effect when filthy fossils are eliminated.

That is the part that is modelled only. But how low do you want CO2 to be? I have seen a new piece where they want 280ppm.::)


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 19^th, 2021 at 3:49pm:

That's actually not a debating point, more like an ad hominem.

Why? Do you have prof he is not getting his cut? ;D ;D ;D ;D


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 19^th, 2021 at 3:49pm:

That's no reason for the US to stick its nose into internal Chinese affairs, on ideological grounds.

Taiwan is EXTERNAL. ::)


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 19^th, 2021 at 3:49pm:

Spectacular growth in China was powered by coal, while fossils were still  powering most everyone at the same time, so China's rapid growth - compared with the developed world -  has other causes.

But NOT renewables. ;)


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 19^th, 2021 at 3:49pm:

btw, renewables in the US and Oz are still only c.20% of energy sources; 2050 is the zero emissions goal in the West.

Yeah. Where in Australia have they actually defined "net zero"? ;D ;D ;D ;D


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 19^th, 2021 at 3:49pm:

No, she is a public banking advocate; she posits China's spectacular rise to state planning, funded via the  government-owned PBofC alongside market reforms adopted in the 1980s.

She is a major leftist with no understanding of economics. She is a lawyer.

https://scheerpost.com/2020/12/01/the-fed-needs-public-banks-now-more-than-ever/

https://www.garynorth.com/public/department141.cfm

lee wrote on Dec 19^th, 2021 at 4:20pm:

And nothing to do with CO2.

Building PVs in the Sahara has everything to do with CO2, according to climate scientists, (and everything to do with eliminating the filthy, poisonous fossil industry, in my view)


Quote:

That is the part that is modelled only. But how low do you want CO2 to be? I have seen a new piece where they want 280ppm.

My view is stated above. Poisons elimination (and cheap electricity) is my concern. 


Quote:

Why? Do you have prof he is not getting his cut?

Still not a debating point. Xi's  wages have nothing to do with  the miracle of China's development, over four decades the fastest of any large nation in history.  


Quote:

Taiwan is EXTERNAL.

The UN , Biden and Oz don't agree. "One China" is the accepted norm.


Quote:

But NOT renewables.

China has the largest renewables capacity in the world, didn't you know?


Quote:

Yeah. Where in Australia have they actually defined "net zero"?

The UN has defined it. OZ is mostly trying to avoid it.


Quote:

She is a major leftist with no understanding of economics. She is a lawyer.

Prove it (the underlined)


Quote:

https://scheerpost.com/2020/12/01/the-fed-needs-public-banks-now-more-than-ever/ https://www.garynorth.com/public/department141.cfm

Oh no, Gary North:

"Gary Kilgore North (born February 1942) is an American writer, Austrian School economic historian, and leading figure in the Christian reconstructionist movement..."

"Christian reconstructionism is a fundamentalist Calvinist theonomic movement. It developed under the ideas of Rousas Rushdoony, Greg Bahnsen and Gary North ...".

Calvin was responsible for the "predestination" doctrine. Nice.

ie, North is immediately confirmed as a Conservative out of touch with reality.....and by his Austrian 'survival of the fittest' school of economics...

thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 20^th, 2021 at 12:27pm:

Building PVs in the Sahara has everything to do with CO2, according to climate scientists, (and everything to do with eliminating the filthy, poisonous fossil industry, in my view)

Really? PV's reduce CO2? Manufacture of PV's reduces CO2? ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 20^th, 2021 at 12:27pm:

My view is stated above. Poisons elimination (and cheap electricity) is my concern.

And yet you can't cite what you say.


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 19^th, 2021 at 3:49pm:

The article ignored reduction in the CO2 AGW hot-house effect when filthy fossils are eliminated.

What hothouse effect? The earth is not a hothouse. A hothouse doesn't have cooling breezes for a start. ::)


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 20^th, 2021 at 12:27pm:

Still not a debating point. Xi's  wages have nothing to do with  the miracle of China's development, over four decades the fastest of any large nation in history.

They have a lot to do with China's emissions. ::)


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 20^th, 2021 at 12:27pm:

The UN , Biden and Oz don't agree.

The UN got vetoed on Taiwan. ::) Australia deals with Taiwan. despite the One China. And One China does NOT debar Taiwan. Biden? oh Hunter's employer? ;D ;D ;D ;D

"In fact, the policy allows for the existence of two separate Chinese entities, not one.

They are People's Republic of China (PRC), governed by the Communist Party from Beijing, and the Republic of China (ROC), based on the island of Taiwan and governed by the Democratic Progressive Party.

If that sounds confusing, it's because it is. The policy was designed to be deliberately ambiguous.

To further complicate matters, the One China policy isn't actually one policy at all, but several — the most famous and influential being the American version.

Various US allies, including Australia, Canada and Japan, have their own policies, all in line with America's."

""The position statement is that the United States 'recognises' the People's Republic of China as the sole legal government of China," explains China expert Mark Harrison, from the University of Tasmania.

"However, it does not state that it accepts that the PRC has sovereignty over Taiwan.

"The word that it uses is that it 'acknowledges' Beijing's position that it is the sovereign government of the island of Taiwan."

Australia's One China policy contains similar wording.

"There's a very particular ambiguous use of language in the way these statements are framed," Dr Harrison says.

"Washington and other countries show that they understand Beijing's position but also indicate that they will not take action that validates Beijing's position.""

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-11-08/one-china-policy-history-and-relevance-explained/10465740


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 20^th, 2021 at 12:27pm:

China has the largest renewables capacity in the world, didn't you know?

And it is still nowhere near enough to claim even majority status. ;D ;D ;D ;D

"By the end of November, the country's installed wind power capacity had soared 29 percent year on year to 300 million kilowatts, and its solar power capacity had reached 290 million kilowatts, up 24.1 percent from a year ago.

China's total installed power generation capacity stood at 2.32 billion kilowatts, growing 9 percent year on year, the NEA data shows."

http://www.china.org.cn/business/2021-12/18/content_77938652.htm

So installed capacity 590 million KW at 35% capacity factor 206 Million KW out of 2,320 equals 8.9%. Not even close to impressive. ::)


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 20^th, 2021 at 12:27pm:

The UN has defined it. OZ is mostly trying to avoid it.

Link? Australia has large forests, mangroves etc. We are a carbon (sic) sink. That means we are already BELOW net zero. In fact the CSIRO says the whole Southern Hemisphere is a carbon sink. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 20^th, 2021 at 12:27pm:

Prove it (the underlined)

Poor petal. You want me to prove a negative. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

But try this -

"
John Hermann
Friday, June 10, 2011 at 19:22

Jim, althought Ellen Brown writes some good stuff, her understanding of monetary mechanics is deficient. It seems that she accepts the nutty debt-virus theory of banking, which has been thoroughly debunkied by those who have an adequate understanding of banking mechanics. Contrary to the claims of debt-virus theorists like Ellen, who think that the interest component of a bank loan requires specific money creation in order to accommodate it, we know that around 98 percent of commercial bank interest income (on average) is spent back into the economy in order to cover the bank’s operating costs (tax, shareholder dividends, interest to depositors, salaries and bonuses to employees, contractors fees, and other overheads). Along with many others, she has fallen into the trap of confusing stocks and flows."

http://bilbo.economicoutlook.net/blog/?p=14772


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 20^th, 2021 at 12:27pm:

Oh no, Gary North:

Oh noes. citing his religious beliefs. ;D ;D ;D ;Di

lee wrote on Dec 20^th, 2021 at 2:10pm:

Really? PV's reduce CO2? Manufacture of PV's reduces CO2?

Of course, when the PVs are manufactured in renewables-powered factories.


Quote:

And yet you can't cite what you say.

Fossil producers like tobacco companies know the facts.


Quote:

What hothouse effect? The earth is not a hothouse. A hothouse doesn't have cooling breezes for a start.

Gosh...the effect of certain gases which turn the earth's atmosphere into acting like a hothouse  (and even if you turn a fan on in the hothouse, it doesn't reduce the temp. in the hothouse).


Quote:

They have a lot to do with China's emissions. )

EVERY nation's development, quick or slow, was/is based on fossils. The future is up for grabs; we know the US has lost all credibility on climate change today, with Manchin voting the Dems. climate bill down today. Ah.. the joys of democracy, based on a philosophy of supreme individual self-interest.  (Senator Manchin, supposedly a Democrat,  owns a million-dollar share portfolio in a coal company).   


Quote:

The UN got vetoed on Taiwan. ::) Australia deals with Taiwan. despite the One China. And One China does NOT debar Taiwan. Biden? oh Hunter's employer?

How so? One China or two Chinas....ah... so you simply proclaim Taiwan is no longer part of China. Cool.  We will see where that goes. Hopefully US democracy will implode under its own contradictions before that concept is forced onto the mainland. 


Quote:

"In fact, the policy allows for the existence of two separate Chinese entities, not one.etc etc

The Taiwan ambiguity exists because of an ideological dispute between a disorderly 'democratic' global hegemon, vis a vis a well-ordered meritocracy.

I'm with the latter; US democracy is failing,  we should have more clarification re the better system of governance, within a decade. 


Quote:

And it is still nowhere near enough to claim even majority status........So installed capacity 590 million KW at 35% capacity factor 206 Million KW out of 2,320 equals 8.9%. Not even close to impressive.

That's a function of the overall size of the Chinese economy; and even so, Chinese renewables output is larger than US renewables output, despite the latter being a bigger economy.


Quote:

Link? Australia has large forests, mangroves etc. We are a carbon (sic) sink. That means we are already BELOW net zero. In fact the CSIRO says the whole Southern Hemisphere is a carbon sink.

Er ...."The CO2 emissions per capita was 16.88 tonnes in 2018, which makes Australia the 12th largest CO2 emissions per capita just ahead of the United States." and
"Australia has the highest greenhouse gas emissions from coal power in the world on a per capita basis, nearly doubling those in China, ...".


Quote:

Poor petal. You want me to prove a negative. But try this - " John Hermann Friday, June 10, 2011 at 19:22 Jim, althought Ellen Brown writes some good stuff, her understanding of monetary mechanics is deficient. It seems that she accepts the nutty debt-virus theory of banking, which has been thoroughly debunkied by those who have an adequate understanding of banking mechanics. Contrary to the claims of debt-virus theorists like Ellen, who think that the interest component of a bank loan requires specific money creation in order to accommodate it, we know that around 98 percent of commercial bank interest income (on average) is spent back into the economy in order to cover the bank’s operating costs (tax, shareholder dividends, interest to depositors, salaries and bonuses to employees, contractors fees, and other overheads). Along with many others, she has fallen into the trap of confusing stocks and flows." http://bilbo.economicoutlook.net/blog/?p=14772

Interesting that you have quoted from one of MMT's founders (from the comments section..."Jim" and "John"?);  Bill Mitchell's  understanding of monetary mechanics is impeccable (and you still can't explain why the sovereign currency issuing government is forced to issue interest bearing debt, to pay essential bills of covid-lockdown workers.
But I'm not here  to defend Ellen's expertise, only her acknowledgement that China is indeed succeeding where the US is failing.


Quote:

Oh noes. citing his religious beliefs.

...a good indicator of degree of contact with reality, depending on the nature of those beliefs; (predestination ain't a good start...)  And Austrian free market economics is merely a reflection of 'survival of the fittest' mechanisms and instincts seen in the non-human natural world. i

thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 20^th, 2021 at 9:30pm:

Of course, when the PVs are manufactured in renewables-powered factories.

When will this occur? You have this naive belief in renewables. Touching really. ;D ;D ;D


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 20^th, 2021 at 9:30pm:

Fossil producers like tobacco companies know the facts.

Oh dear. Fossil fuel producers know what scientists know. Not more not less. But continue on with your bullschist claims. ;D ;D ;D ;D


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 20^th, 2021 at 9:30pm:

Gosh...the effect of certain gases which turn the earth's atmosphere into acting like a hothouse  (and even if you turn a fan on in the hothouse, it doesn't reduce the temp. in the hothouse).

Poor petal. A hothouse by definition is hot. It is not ordinarily open to the outside world. It has extra heating. Perhaps you mean a greenhouse. you really have no clue. ::)


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 20^th, 2021 at 9:30pm:

EVERY nation's development, quick or slow, was/is based on fossils. The future is up for grabs; we know the US has lost all credibility on climate change today, with Manchin voting the Dems. climate bill down today. Ah.. the joys of democracy, based on a philosophy of supreme individual self-interest.  (Senator Manchin, supposedly a Democrat,  owns a million-dollar share portfolio in a coal company).

And it will continue to be. ::)


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 20^th, 2021 at 9:30pm:

The Taiwan ambiguity exists because of an ideological dispute between a disorderly 'democratic' global hegemon, vis a vis a well-ordered meritocracy.

The meritocracy not based on merit.


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 20^th, 2021 at 9:30pm:

That's a function of the overall size of the Chinese economy; and even so, Chinese renewables output is larger than US renewables output, despite the latter being a bigger economy.

And STILL in no position to power China. ::)


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 20^th, 2021 at 9:30pm:

Er ...."The CO2 emissions per capita was 16.88 tonnes in 2018, which makes Australia the 12th largest CO2 emissions per capita just ahead of the United States." and "Australia has the highest greenhouse gas emissions from coal power in the world on a per capita basis, nearly doubling those in China, ...".

Oh dear. Per capita emissions. I thought Total Emissions was the problem. If not we will just wait for China and India to catch up. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Per capita emissions is a wankfest, So what are Australia's total emissions. What is Total Sequestration? What is left? That is where you know what NET ZERO is. Total emissions- sequestration gives a figure. Below zero means Australia is a carbon sink. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 20^th, 2021 at 9:30pm:

...a good indicator of degree of contact with reality, depending on the nature of those beliefs. And Austrian free market economics is only a reflection of 'survival of the fittest'  in the non-human natural world.

You are just bloviating covering up your inconsequence. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

“The brightest flashes in the world of thought are incomplete until they have been proved to have their counterparts in the world of fact.” – John Tyndall

lee wrote on Dec 20^th, 2021 at 10:12pm:

When will this occur? You have this naive belief in renewables. Touching really

Along with most of the world aiming for 100% renewables; the problem is the free market and mainstream economics.


Quote:

Oh dear. Fossil fuel producers know what scientists know. Not more not less. But continue on with your bullschist claims.

Actually, oil companies knew of the CO2 greenhouse effect as early as the 70's, and covered it up. And authorities are banning diesels in cities for another reason.....


Quote:

Poor petal. A hothouse by definition is hot. It is not ordinarily open to the outside world. It has extra heating. Perhaps you mean a greenhouse. you really have no clue

Of course I mean greenhouse; your argument - along with the article (which failed to take into account reduction of the greenhouse effect) -  falls over.


Quote:

And it will continue to be.

Unfortunately for you, weather-related  catastrophes are now occurring with monotonous regularity, reinforcing the AGW narrative in peoples' minds all around the world.


Quote:

The meritocracy not based on merit.

It is based on individuals' capability to fill the functions of a specific role; so let's call it an authoritarian consensus meritocracy (the Chinese themselves call it a peoples' national democracy; election of reps  by people who aren't interested in politics is worthless).....
cf government by our adversarial, hyper-partisan, short-term, two-party rabbles of elected self-interested clowns and scumbags.


Quote:

And STILL in no position to power China.

China of course has an added incentive to ditch filthy fossil, to attain clean air in the cities.  Be patient (they are also developing nuclear power).


Quote:

Oh dear. Per capita emissions. I thought Total Emissions was the problem. If not we will just wait for China and India to catch up. Per capita emissions is a wankfest, So what are Australia's total emissions. What is Total Sequestration? What is left? That is where you know what NET ZERO is. Total emissions- sequestration gives a figure. Below zero means Australia is a carbon sink.

Difficult for survival of the fittest greedy Conservatives to realize we are all in this together. Hence the average  emissions for all of us on the planet must be addressed, by all of us.   


Quote:

You are just bloviating covering up your inconsequence.

When the awful foundation of the Conservative world view (namely, the survival of the fittest, self-interested 'freedom' instincts, of the non-human, natural world) is examined, the above response is to be expected. The path to enlightenment is a painful experience. 

thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 21^st, 2021 at 5:37pm:

Along with most of the world aiming for 100% renewables; the problem is the free market and mainstream economics.

Nope. That would be lamestream economics if it were to be implemented. ;D ;D ;D


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 21^st, 2021 at 5:37pm:

Actually, oil companies knew of the CO2 greenhouse effect as early as the 70's, and covered it up.

Strange then that climate scientists keep going back to Arrhenius and Tyndall. Actually they didn't know more than other scientists. But perhaps you have a link? Exxon knew or something. ;D ;D ;D ;D


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 21^st, 2021 at 5:37pm:

Of course I mean greenhouse; your argument - along with the article (which failed to take into account reduction of the greenhouse effect) -  falls over.

I was putting up an argument for not against. So how much of a reduction do you want? You keep dodging that. Down to 280ppm? Back to LIA conditions? That is pre-industrial. ;)


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 21^st, 2021 at 5:37pm:

Unfortunately for you, weather-related  catastrophes are now occurring with monotonous regularity, reinforcing the AGW narrative in peoples' minds all around the world.

And yet you can't cite any caused by climate change. ::)


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 21^st, 2021 at 5:37pm:

It is based on individuals' capability to fill the functions of a specific role; so let's call it an authoritarian consensus meritocracy (the Chinese themselves call it a peoples' national democracy; election of reps  by people who aren't interested in politics is worthless).....

let's call it for what it actually is a sham meritocracy.


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 21^st, 2021 at 5:37pm:

China of course has an added incentive to ditch filthy fossil, to attain clean air in the cities.

And yet their life expectancy is roughly equivalent to the USA. ;)


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 21^st, 2021 at 5:37pm:

Difficult for survival of the fittest greedy Conservatives to realize we are all in this together. Hence the average  emissions for all of us on the planet must be addressed, by all of us.

Well except for German youth and others. ;)


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 21^st, 2021 at 5:37pm:

The path to enlightenment is a painful experience.

Tell me when you get there. I know it is painful for you. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

lee wrote on Dec 21^st, 2021 at 6:19pm:

Nope. That would be lamestream economics if it were to be implemented

on the contrary:

http://bilbo.economicoutlook.net/blog/?p=48907

"To reclaim the state, we have to start with ourselves"

Difficult for survival of the fittest greedy Conservatives to realize we are all in this together


Quote:

Strange then that climate scientists keep going back to Arrhenius and Tyndall. Actually they didn't know more than other scientists. But perhaps you have a link? Exxon knew or something

That's right. Too many links,  but: 

"The fossil fuel industry was first warned about climate change back in 1959 by famed physicist Edward Teller, known as “the father of the hydrogen bomb.” Throughout the '60s and '70s, oil and gas companies continued to gather evidence that burning fossil fuels was going to change the planet, perhaps even ...29 Oct 2021"


Quote:

I was putting up an argument for not against. So how much of a reduction do you want? You keep dodging that. Down to 280ppm? Back to LIA conditions? That is pre-industrial. ;)

You claimed making PVs would heat the atmosphere. You forgot that the CO2 greenhouse effect would be decreased  when fossils are eliminated. As to numbers, I'll leave that you.


Quote:

And yet you can't cite any caused by climate change.

Doesn't matter what I think; the mainstream media is saying climate change is the culprit. You lose... 


Quote:

let's call it for what it actually is a sham meritocracy.

in any case more successful than a hyper-partisan 'democratic', blind-leading-the-blind, achieve-nothing rabble.
The new Leftwing  Chilean leader wants to tackle poverty and inequality....he's got 2 chances in a 'democracy' of self-interested 'freedom' freaks (which we all are) : buckleys and none.   


Quote:

And yet their life expectancy is roughly equivalent to the USA.

The US has the highest gun mortality rates of any developed country......but as China cleans up its energy sources, life expectancy will indeed exceed the US.


Quote:

Well except for German youth and others.

No, all of us; what part of that don't you understand (even allowing for your Conservative world view)?


Quote:

Tell me when you get there. I know it is painful for you.

But not for you, of course.......

thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 21^st, 2021 at 10:20pm:

on the contrary: http://bilbo.economicoutlook.net/blog/?p=48907 "To reclaim the state, we have to start with ourselves"

With an untried, unproven hypothesis. you really are delusional. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 21^st, 2021 at 10:20pm:

"The fossil fuel industry was first warned about climate change back in 1959 by famed physicist Edward Teller, known as “the father of the hydrogen bomb.” Throughout the '60s and '70s, oil and gas companies continued to gather evidence that burning fossil fuels was going to change the planet, perhaps even ...29 Oct 2021"

Edit: Desmogblog? ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

That's not a link. try again. But I did find him on SkepSci.

This is what he said in part in 1959 -

"Carbon dioxide has a strange property. It transmits visible light but it absorbs the infrared radiation which is emitted from the earth. Its presence in the atmosphere causes a greenhouse effect [....] It has been calculated that a temperature rise corresponding to a 10 per cent increase in carbon dioxide will be sufficient to melt the icecap and submerge New York. All the coastal cities would be covered, and since a considerable percentage of the human race lives in coastal regions, I think that this chemical contamination is more serious than most people tend to believe."

https://skepticalscience.com/news.php?n=3993

So let's see - CO2 level 1959 - 315.98 ppm
CO2 level 2020 - 414.24ppm

A 10% rise on 1959 level would be about 348ppm. So we are way over that. And last time I heard New York was still there. You really are too funny. You don't even try to analyse what you post ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Edit: So scientists not just oil companies KNEW as much as each other. ::)


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 21^st, 2021 at 10:20pm:

You claimed making PVs would heat the atmosphere.

Did I? Where is that exactly? Direct quote please. ::)


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 21^st, 2021 at 10:20pm:

You forgot that the CO2 greenhouse effect would be decreased  when fossils are eliminated.

I haven't forgotten anything petal.


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 21^st, 2021 at 10:20pm:

As to numbers, I'll leave that you.

It's your assertion. Back it up with something.


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 21^st, 2021 at 10:20pm:

Doesn't matter what I think; the mainstream media is saying climate change is the culprit. You lose...

Really? I lose because the Lamestream media is on board? Not the science? ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 21^st, 2021 at 10:20pm:

in any case more successful than a hyper-partisan 'democratic', blind-leading-the-blind, achieve-nothing rabble.

Oh dear. Following the party line.  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 21^st, 2021 at 10:20pm:

No, all of us; what part of that don't you understand (even allowing for your Conservative world view)?

Oh dear.

"But the results of the major climate survey of the European Investment Bank (EIB) don’t suggest this sort of generational difference. For example when it comes to products with the highest greenhouse gas emissions, such as short-haul domestic flights, 47 percent of respondents over 65 could imagine an emissions ban from such products, but only 27 percent of 15- to 29-year-olds could."

"Shockingly, “Only 26 percent of young people believe that we should use less fossil energy, primarily for climate protection reasons,” the two Die Welt journalists reveal. “Young people up to the age of 29 are not so keen on being banned from speeding on the motorway either: Only 12 percent would agree to a speed limit – in the over-65 age group, the figure is 26 percent.”

Another striking result: “Only 20 percent of Germans under age 30 are in favor of subsidizing electric cars” and a puny “22 percent in this age group would give priority to technology in climate protection.”

"Moreover only 15 percent of Germany’s youth were prepared to radically change their personal behavior to fit in with the Paris climate goals,” write Wetzel and Seibert. 42%, however, do agree that behavioral change is necessary."

https://notrickszone.com/2021/03/12/major-survey-shocks-german-youth-rejecting-need-for-radical-behavior-change-to-fight-climate-crisis/

original : https://www.welt.de/wirtschaft/plus227876251/Klimaschutz-Die-Jugend-tickt-offenbar-ganz-anders-als-Fridays-for-Future.html


thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 21^st, 2021 at 10:20pm:

But not for you, of course......

Tell me the science petal. I will research it and tell you what it actually says. ;D ;D ;D ;D