Is Hydrogen all hype? Is Andrew barking up tho wrong tree? Listen to what he has to say.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WuwiBdL06FY&t=903s

I assume he's done his sums -
he can make money out of it.

Another frontman for Chinese interests.

Wouldn't trust him as far as I could kick him.

Yet to see how he can run an iron ore & mining empire & supposedly go "green".

Gnads wrote on Oct 12^th, 2021 at 7:14am:

Another frontman for Chinese interests. Wouldn't trust him as far as I could kick him. Yet to see how he can run an iron ore & mining empire & supposedly go "green".

Yes, he could be a complete phony. Do you have any factual reasons to mistrust him? He does attempt to explain how is company is going green in the video, which is basically, hydrogen power from solar and wind electolysis. And he is investing a lot of money in those projects.

Having doubts about Forrest is fair enough, he's a player, but there's plenty of interest in hydrogen. The former chief scientist Alan Finkel is a strong proponent of it. He's a neuroscientist but sounds like he's done his research with the appropriate scientists and economists, and there's huge upside in exporting H, particularly to Japan.

Finkel also likes nuclear, and says it stacks up scientifically and economically, but getting the public to go along with it is too hard.

Funny thing about hydrogen power is when you ask the average dolt on the street, they think it's dangerous because of the hindenburg and the H bomb  :o

To be green hydrogen it needs to come from green energy. Electrolysis uses large amounts of power. Good thing he is building that huge Solar farm. But that is to sell power to Singapore.

lee wrote on Oct 12^th, 2021 at 12:07pm:

To be green hydrogen it needs to come from green energy. Electrolysis uses large amounts of power. Good thing he is building that huge Solar farm. But that is to sell power to Singapore.

In the video, he stresses the use of wind and solar for his Hydrogen projects.

Bobby. wrote on Oct 11^th, 2021 at 2:05pm:

I assume he's done his sums - he can make money out of it.

Forrest is another term for red flag.

End of story.

issuevoter wrote on Oct 13^th, 2021 at 7:03am:

In the video, he stresses the use of wind and solar for his Hydrogen projects.

Yes. Now all he has to do is build them big enough. Which costs a lot.

"CSIRO has been leading the development of a roadmap for the Australian solar fuels industry. The roadmap aims to define the research, development and demonstration priorities to establish and foster an industry using solar thermal technologies. During the three-year project, the cost of photovoltaic (PV) technologies has significantly reduced, while interest has grown in the production of hydrogen from electrolysis. This report, commissioned by ARENA, assesses hydrogen production from PV and electrolysis. It is intended as both a standalone document and a useful reference point for comparison with solar thermal technologies. It considers the likely current cost as well as a ‘realistic, optimistic’ view of future possibilities, as presented in the solar thermal fuels roadmap.

Our evaluation of the current and future (2030) cost of hydrogen from PV and electrolysis shows that the potential cost using currently available technology is approximately $18.70/kg H2. The base case system consists of a PV module with power electronics connected to a proton exchange membrane electrolysis plant, which produces hydrogen only when the PV system is producing power. The assessment is based on an estimated system cost of $2300/kW for a large scale, nontracking PV system with a mid-range capacity factor of 20.5% and a weighted average cost of capital of 6.4%, as recently published by the CO2CRC (2015). It is assumed that the uninstalled cost of the electrolyser and associated components is $2,285/kW, in line with recent estimates from the European Fuel Cell and Hydrogen Joint Undertaking (Bertuccioli et al., 2014). Significant cost reductions are predicted for both these technologies, cutting the estimated cost of hydrogen to $9.10/kg by 2030."

https://arena.gov.au/knowledge-bank/cost-assessment-of-hydrogen-production-from-pv-and-electrolysis/

1Kg of Hydrogen has the energy of about 3.2Kg (4.5L) of petrol.

Nobody has twigged yet?

What is the result of all these rooftop solar panels in Australia? Answer: Lots of Green Energy. (which currently goes into the grid)

Why are so many coal-fired power stations currently running at low capacity? Answer: Lots of Green Energy from PV Solar.

What does the Fortescue Hydrogen Project need to be successful? Answer: Lots of Green Energy.

What happens when the Fortescue Hydrogen Project buys up all that Green Energy?

Answer?   Well the er... Power Stations will be at higher capacity. (What kind of Power Stations - er clean coal?)

Now of course they will double PV Energy generation - eventually. Angus Taylor is totally honest as we know.

Why is the government so reluctant to go to the Climate Summit when they are planning this wonderful Green Hydrogen project?

Shuffling deck chairs on the Titanic is a phrase that comes to mind.

If you want to see what is happening with Electricity generation in Australia, check the NEM website.

John_Taverner wrote on Oct 13^th, 2021 at 1:33pm:

What is the result of all these rooftop solar panels in Australia? Answer: Lots of Green Energy. (which currently goes into the grid)

Which is causing grid instability.


John_Taverner wrote on Oct 13^th, 2021 at 1:33pm:

Why are so many coal-fired power stations currently running at low capacity? Answer: Lots of Green Energy from PV Solar.

Because Coal fired plant can't ramp up quickly.


John_Taverner wrote on Oct 13^th, 2021 at 1:33pm:

Now of course they will double PV Energy generation - eventually. Angus Taylor is totally honest as we know.

And cause even more grid instability.


John_Taverner wrote on Oct 13^th, 2021 at 1:33pm:

Why is the government so reluctant to go to the Climate Summit when they are planning this wonderful Green Hydrogen project?

Can you show where it is a government project?

Did you see that in the UK they are blaming the lack of wind on "global stilling" because ...climate change?

lee wrote on Oct 13^th, 2021 at 1:38pm:

Which is causing grid instability.

Less so in South Australia, and it looks like other states are following their lead:

https://www.energy-storage.news/australian-states-push-forward-large-scale-battery-plans/

Anyway, you're missing the whole point of my post and nibbling at the edges.

Would you settle for government -backed? I'd say more like government showcased.
https://www.minister.industry.gov.au/ministers/taylor/media-releases/australia-backs-world-leading-clean-hydrogen-projects


The NEM Live Supply and demand widget for those who want the facts on Energy generation in Australia:

https://www.nem-watch.info/widgets/reneweconomy/

John_Taverner wrote on Oct 13^th, 2021 at 1:48pm:

Less so in South Australia, and it looks like other states are following their lead: https://www.energy-storage.news/australian-states-push-forward-large-scale-batte...

You mean the one that caught fire?

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-07-30/tesla-battery-fire-moorabool-geelong/100337488

You know the type lithium ion, burns well, melts steel, highly toxic.

"The Future NEM forum of November 5 attended by representatives of AEMO, major transmission and distribution networks and various associations provided one clear take-out—that there is no detailed plan for a stable and resilient NEM as renewables continue to grow. Similar observation can be made of the Energy Security Board because of its inaction to deal with the single most important facet of the evolving NEM: system strength.

In the plethora of commentary on Australia’s electricity future, system strength (a very meaningful term in electrical engineering) doesn’t get a mention—it’s as if it is seen as a reactionary impulse against wind and solar generation. In fact, system strength maintenance in the NEM will facilitate the continued growth of wind and solar, including ‘behind the meter’ distributed generation.

System strength requires that we not diminish further the current NEM stock of synchronous inertia and spinning reserve, and this has serious financial implications. In short, a new market for capacity—megawatts instead of megawatt-hours is urgently needed—but there’s more.

As an alternating current network, NEM stability and resilience require two things; a narrowly controlled rate of change of frequency (RoCoF) and voltage stability. Both wind and solar connect to the NEM via power-electronics inverters and neither possesses native features of voltage and frequency stability because they do not have inertia. Proponents of green power talk around this by pointing to small electricity systems like King Island, the Canaries, Hawaii islands etc. conveniently forgetting that many homes in these places have their own backup generators, and that no network operator runs the island grids without a level of synchronous inertia, e.g.: diesel or gas turbines.

System strength not only requires the maintenance of spinning reserve but also control. AEMO does have a measure of control of the NEM, for example in the case of South Australia, islanding the State on some occasions when instability threatens the security of the rest of the NEM. However, AEMO is hampered in its task through the lack of a NEM-wide comprehensive, real-time information and control system. The task, increasingly pressing, is to marshal the appropriate resources in real time, be they batteries, synchronous condensers, and spinning reserve. As to batteries, in as much as they also connect via inverters, they can only work effectively in the presence of rotating inertia as provided by synchronous generators.

The integrated systems plan of AEMO, which also was a subject at the forum, did not attract meaningful discussion. AEMO’s powerlessness in its ability to force distribution networks to maintain a minimum level of power demand stability is the main reason why the growing penetration of distributed resources in distribution grids will be the cause of more islanding incidents of large portions of the NEM grid. The control of ‘behind the meter’ solar in order to provide zone substation stability is unavoidable and can be made politically acceptable through the use of AI to limit the impact on individual prosumers. The refusal so far to engage with the need for limiting power fluctuation at zone substations is setting the NEM up for an unstable future.

Forums providing opportunities for discussion and the interaction of ideas notwithstanding, it is now high time to come to engineering grips for the NEM, requiring not only new markets for system strength so as to limit the planned retirements of synchronous generators, but to also draft new grid codes for substation stability and to provide engineering oversight as well as new connection codes for household, commercial and industrial solar generation."

https://esdnews.com.au/the-future-of-the-nem/

I think you're getting off topic, but if you think that Tesla Megapack Battery farms are doomed to catch fire, maybe you should let them know about that for their 300MWhr project in California and their 100MWhr project in Nevada, not to mention the European installations. 

The Geelong battery farm commissioning is still ongoing. Nobody has thrown their hands up in the air and said that it's too difficult.

Was it the last industrial commissioning incident? Probably not. Was it a show-stopper? Definitely not.

Small scale residential battery installations may yet prove to be more effective.

By the way, it's the Lithium metal that burns, not Lithium ions.

John_Taverner wrote on Oct 13^th, 2021 at 4:08pm:

I think you're getting off topic, but if you think that Tesla Megapack Battery farms are doomed to catch fire, maybe you should let them know about that for their 300MWhr project in California and their 100MWhr project in Nevada, not to mention the European installations.

You are the one brought up the batteries. So what could go wrong IF they catch fire? Oh die of toxic poisoning. hardly a challenge.

How long would 300Mw power the NEM?


John_Taverner wrote on Oct 13^th, 2021 at 4:08pm:

Was it a show-stopper?

No just print more money. ;)

Lisa Jones wrote on Oct 13^th, 2021 at 8:37am:

Bobby. wrote on Oct 11th, 2021 at 2:05pm: I assume he's done his sums - he can make money out of it. Forrest is another term for red flag. End of story.

Right Oh!

lee wrote on Oct 13^th, 2021 at 4:38pm:

How long would 300Mw power the NEM?

Aha! You think that it's intended as a battery backup. Read one of your own cut and pasted replies if you want to know their true purpose. I'm not going to spoon feed you.

John_Taverner wrote on Oct 14^th, 2021 at 7:47am:

You think that it's intended as a battery backup

Well that was the original intention in SA - to avoid blackouts.

"In response, the South Australian government called for expressions of interest to deploy grid-scale energy storage options with at least 100MW of capacity."

So if it is grid scale how long will it last? ;)

And in Vic.

"The Victorian Big Battery will store energy in times of high production and release energy in times of high demand, similar to how a battery on a home solar system works."

https://victorianbigbattery.com.au/faqs/

Now if demand exceeds supply because of generator fault - How long will the battery last?

Quote:

Now if demand exceeds supply because of generator fault - How long will the battery last?

As I said, it's not intended to be a battery back-up in case of failure. Nothing you quoted above actually says that.

Inertia - that's a good word. What does it mean in terms of electricity supply? (you just said it)

John_Taverner wrote on Oct 14^th, 2021 at 1:32pm:

As I said, it's not intended to be a battery back-up in case of failure. Nothing you quoted above actually says that.

So what is it supposed to do in case of grid failure? ;)
John_Taverner wrote on Oct 14^th, 2021 at 1:32pm:

Inertia - that's a good word. What does it mean in terms of electricity supply? (you just said it)

Inertia - the ability to overcome resistance. Put a 1ohm load on a 12 volt battery, but switch it at a distance.  ;)

The battery has no inertia to help overcome the load. A physical generator however will try to overcome that load.

You have no idea what you're talking about.       

Grid inertia is a form of energy storage which addresses imbalances between supply and demand on electricity grids over very short time periods, typically on the order of fractions of a second to several of seconds.  Battery back-up is a totally different concept.  It's used in some industrial processes so that you can shut them down safely in the event of power disruptions. 

What you're describing is a short circuit.  1Ω ? Really?

You need an island mode power plant to handle longer term disruptions.   

I must stop replying to you. It's pointless.

John_Taverner wrote on Oct 14^th, 2021 at 5:24pm:

You have no idea what you're talking about.

It seems you know less.


John_Taverner wrote on Oct 14^th, 2021 at 5:24pm:

Grid inertia is a form of energy storage which addresses imbalances between supply and demand on electricity grids over very short time periods, typically on the order of fractions of a second to several of seconds.

"Inertia in power systems refers to the energy stored in large rotating generators and some industrial motors, which gives them the tendency to remain rotating. This stored energy can be particularly valuable when a large power plant fails, as it can temporarily make up for the power lost from the failed generator. This temporary response—which is typically available for a few seconds—allows the mechanical systems that control most power plants time to detect and respond to the failure. "

https://www.nrel.gov/news/program/2020/inertia-and-the-power-grid-a-guide-without-the-spin.html


John_Taverner wrote on Oct 14^th, 2021 at 5:24pm:

What you're describing is a short circuit.  1Ω ? Really?

That was an extreme example. 1Ω is not a short circuit. A short circuit is 0Ω. But the grid has an impedance, any disturbance of that impedance (or load) a generator tries to cope. It may not achieve it but it tries. Batteries cannot provide any inertia. They have no momentum which is what overcomes inertia.


John_Taverner wrote on Oct 14^th, 2021 at 5:24pm:

I must stop replying to you. It's pointless.

It is as you refuse to learn. ;)