China played dirty to get Huawei’s 'princess' back — too dirty even to tell its own people

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-09-26/huawei-meng-wanzhou-china-played-dirty-birtles/100491980

Family and supporters of two diplomatic hostages held in China for almost three years have celebrated their arrival home in Canada, as the woman they were traded for, Meng Wanzhou, was given a hero's welcome in the city of Shenzhen.

The trio's return to their respective homes caps a historic three-year standoff between the world's two superpowers, with Canada and the Chinese company Huawei caught in the middle.

Upon arriving home to Calgary, one of the two Canadians Michael Kovrig said "It’s fantastic to be back home in Canada".

He'd endured more than a thousand days locked in a Chinese prison with limited access to lawyers and no ability to speak to visitors outside of a monthly consular visit.

Meng Wanzhou, the wealthy daughter of Huawei's boss Ren Zhengfei sometimes dubbed a princess by Chinese media, told Chinese state TV as she departed Canada: "If it wasn't for a strong motherland, I wouldn't have my freedom today."

She had earlier thanked the Canadian government "for upholding the rule of law", after being freed to leave Canada when US prosecutors suddenly abandoned their three-year effort to extradite her to the US.

She was wanted for bank and wire fraud charges relating to Huawei's alleged efforts to subvert US sanctions and sell equipment to Iran.

The merits of the US claims will now never be tested in court, but China always viewed the case as a blatant political attack on a fast-rising Chinese company.

Her 2018 arrest came as the Trump administration ramped up pressure on Huawei to curtail its overseas expansion into the 5G networks of the world.

Whatever the aim at the time, it's hard to believe the Trump administration would have pursued her arrest had it foreseen the consequences.

And now that the saga is over, taken on face value, Meng Wanzhou's release back to China this weekend is a big victory for Beijing.

From the moment she was arrested in late 2018 when Canadian authorities executed an arrest warrant on behalf of the US as she transited through Vancouver, China's government has publicly and privately lobbied hard for her release.

When its security agents took the brutal step of detaining analyst and former diplomat Michael Kovrig in Beijing and businessman Michael Spavor in the north-eastern city of Dandong just 10 days later, there was one objective:

Pressure the Canadians and/or the Americans to abandon their legal process.

When China's leaders then approved the ghoulish step a few weeks later of hastily retrying a convicted Canadian drug smuggler in a one-day show trial and sentencing him to death, they had one objective:

Bring Meng home.

When they approved the sentencing of a further three Canadian citizens to death for drugs crimes, the same objective likely prevailed.

Now, just four weeks shy of a decision in a torturously-long extradition process, the Americans have blinked.

China has averted the tremendous humiliation of having the daughter of the head of one of its most celebrated companies being put on trial in a court of its greatest rival — the United States.

As Meng's chartered flight from Canada entered Chinese airspace, headlines buzzed with excitement.

Crowds rushed to Shenzhen airport to greet her with flowers.

China's government ordered its state-run media to celebrate with wall-to-wall coverage of Meng thanking "the motherland" and the Communist Party, while other articles framed her release as a sign of China's strength.

There was just one thing missing.

There's been absolutely no mention in China's media of the Canadians being released in order to get Ms Meng back.

"Hostage diplomacy has worked", said Natasha Kassam, a China specialist at the Lowy Institute who previously worked as a diplomat in Beijing.

"There's no doubt Beijing sees this as a victory and there's no incentive to not try this again in the future," she said.

But admitting to 1.4 billion citizens that China played such a ruthless and dirty game to get its way appears a step too far for Beijing's propaganda chiefs.

China's conundrum

The censorship of Kovrig and Spavor's release from Chinese jails reflects how awkward it is.

For almost three years, Chinese government spokespeople and state media have repeatedly denied the obvious link between their arrests and Meng Wanzhou's.

As Meng's legal team was making final submissions in a Canadian court in August seeking to avoid extradition, a closed Chinese court sentenced Michael Spavor to 11 years in jail for obtaining state secrets.

Details were scarce of what he supposedly did wrong.

Michael Kovrig was also tried in a Beijing closed court, with Chinese government media reports of their trials never drawing any direct link to Meng.

Foreign Ministry spokespeople bristled at claims of "arbitrary detention", throwing the accusation back at the US and Canada.

Now China's censors have been scrubbing comments off social media sites that question why two men accused of such serious crimes against China could be suddenly released.

Was the government lying about their espionage crimes? Was it lying about their case not being linked to Meng's? Would China, a self-proclaimed "rule of law country" run by an authoritarian one-party state, take hostages to get its way?

In the raucous celebrations for Meng's homecoming, authorities seem to hope few people notice.

A win with costs

Despite getting what it wanted, China's government has also taken a heavy reputational hit through its response to Meng's case.

The Chinese government's heavy role throughout has affirmed suspicions that Huawei is closely intertwined with the ruling Communist Party, despite Huawei's claim that it's a private company that wouldn't comply if Beijing wanted to use its networks for future espionage.

Such concerns have likely played into decisions of countries such as the UK in reversing plans to install Huawei equipment in its 5G networks.

And in August, as Michael Spavor was sentenced to 11 years in jail, diplomats from 25 countries gathered at Canada's embassy in Beijing to express solidarity against China's use of arbitrary detention.

China's actions to free Meng have pulled Western nations together in opposition.

Australia knows only too well.

The departure of the two Michaels gives little hope to the two Australians being held for espionage in Beijing.

Yang Hengjun, a one-time Chinese state security employee, and Cheng Lei, a state TV newsreader, are languishing behind bars in separate cases that appear highly political.

"We've never had the same clarity about their detention as we've had with the two Canadians", said Ms Kassam from the Lowy Institute.

"There's no clear path we can see to secure their freedom."

The Chinese are not quite nuclear ready. Yet.

The Sth China Sea is being closely monitored by the US.

The deadliest war humanity has ever seen is at the door.

And the tragedy is this : many have yet to realise this. Covid19 is a convenient distraction. I'm not saying it's not real. It is. Make no mistake. It's real. A bio weapon which plays a part in all this. But whilst we're being distracted by it .... the real politics of our time is being played. Quietly. Concentration camps, people going missing, extreme censoring of the media and well written propaganda - the Nazis were cruel but they did not have modern day technology as well.

Lisa Jones wrote on Sep 26^th, 2021 at 8:40am:

And the tragedy is this : many have yet to realise this. Covid19 is a convenient distraction. I'm not saying it's not real. It is. Make no mistake. It's real. A bio weapon which plays a part in all this. But whilst we're being distracted by it .... the real politics of our time is being played. Quietly. Concentration camps, people going missing, extreme censoring of the media and well written propaganda - the Nazis were cruel but they did not have modern day technology as well.

Yes... While the pandemic was not a planned event, it's clear the Chinese regime is exploiting the distraction.

"All is fair in love and war."     ?

Isn't it ?



Politics, is war [warfare].

"The end, justifies the means."     .....and the other moral ways of men.  ?



Choose.

Yadda wrote on Sep 26^th, 2021 at 9:34am:

"All is fair in love and war."     ? Isn't it ? Politics, is war [warfare]. "The end, justifies the means."     .....and the other moral ways of men.  ? Choose.

War is politics by other means.

Do you think that because Islam is not involved there's nothing to be prepared for?

Lisa Jones wrote on Sep 26^th, 2021 at 8:40am:

The Chinese are not quite nuclear ready. Yet. The Sth China Sea is being closely monitored by the US. The deadliest war humanity has ever seen is at the door. And the tragedy is this : many have yet to realise this. Covid19 is a convenient distraction. I'm not saying it's not real. It is. Make no mistake. It's real. A bio weapon which plays a part in all this. But whilst we're being distracted by it .... the real politics of our time is being played. Quietly. Concentration camps, people going missing, extreme censoring of the media and well written propaganda - the Nazis were cruel but they did not have modern day technology as well.

The Nazis had it much easier. In comparison the internet is a nightmare for the Chinese regime. In the 30s and 40s it was quite easy for the state to control a couple of television and radio stations and broadsheet newspapers. The information flow was all one way, from a few centralised outlets. Now everyone can send an email or post a response.

How long before our very own little 50c warrior Athos pops up to justify this?  ::)

Belgarion wrote on Sep 26^th, 2021 at 10:07am:

How long before our very own little 50c warrior Athos pops up to justify this?  ::)

Tick, Tick, Tick...

NorthOfNorth wrote on Sep 26^th, 2021 at 9:40am:

Yadda wrote on Sep 26th, 2021 at 9:34am: "All is fair in love and war."     ? Isn't it ? Politics, is war [warfare]. "The end, justifies the means."     .....and the other moral ways of men.  ? Choose. War is politics by other means. Do you think that because Islam is not involved there's nothing to be prepared for?

I think that Xi and the CCP have way, way too much influence, upon politicians and upon political decisions in the West.

Xi and the CCP have been playing the West [and China's neighbours] like a fiddle.

Xi and the CCP know exactly how [or seem to have a very good idea of how] Western 'democracy's' will respond to each of China's moves.


JUST A FEW YEARS AGO.....
Remember the concerns expressed in our region, when China began making atolls in the S. China Sea habitable, and making them safe anchorages for Chinese supply ships ?

And while everyone simply watched on, China smoothly assured all of the nations surrounding the S. China Sea, that those atolls would not be militarised.

And they have been militarised.


To what [material] cost to China or to China's economy ?

Yadda wrote on Sep 26^th, 2021 at 3:16pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Sep 26th, 2021 at 9:40am: Yadda wrote on Sep 26th, 2021 at 9:34am: "All is fair in love and war."     ? Isn't it ? Politics, is war [warfare]. "The end, justifies the means."     .....and the other moral ways of men.  ? Choose. War is politics by other means. Do you think that because Islam is not involved there's nothing to be prepared for? I think that Xi and the CCP have way, way too much influence, upon politicians and upon political decisions in the West. Xi and the CCP have been playing the West [and China's neighbours] like a fiddle. Xi and the CCP know exactly how [or seem to have a very good idea of how] Western 'democracy's' will respond to each of China's moves. JUST A FEW YEARS AGO..... Remember the concerns expressed in our region, when China began making atolls in the S. China Sea habitable, and making them safe anchorages for Chinese supply ships ? And while everyone simply watched on, China smoothly assured all of the nations surrounding the S. China Sea, that those atolls would not be militarised. And they have been militarised. To what [material] cost to China or to China's economy ?

The Chinese regime exploited our human instinct for acquisition and greed by exploiting the poor and underprivileged within Chinese society.

Quote:

exploiting the poor and underprivileged within Chinese society

China created a new middle class out of what were previously dirt poor peasants. It was the greatest in scale and most rapid such transformation in history.

freediver wrote on Sep 26^th, 2021 at 4:08pm:

Quote: exploiting the poor and underprivileged within Chinese society China created a new middle class out of what were previously dirt poor peasants. It was the greatest in scale and most rapid such transformation in history.

Even did them the favour of selecting them from their traditional rural villages and bussing them to their confinement in dormitories next to the factories to work 996 (9am to 9pm 6 days a week).

NorthOfNorth wrote on Sep 26^th, 2021 at 4:12pm:

freediver wrote on Sep 26th, 2021 at 4:08pm: Quote: exploiting the poor and underprivileged within Chinese society China created a new middle class out of what were previously dirt poor peasants. It was the greatest in scale and most rapid such transformation in history. Even did them the favour of selecting them from their traditional rural villages and bussing them to their confinement in dormitories next to the factories to work 996 (9am to 9pm 6 days a week).

You'd be surprised how people prefer working 6 days a week over starving to death. Most do not even consider it exploitation. In our history, we call it opportunity and revolution.

freediver wrote on Sep 26^th, 2021 at 4:20pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Sep 26th, 2021 at 4:12pm: freediver wrote on Sep 26th, 2021 at 4:08pm: Quote: exploiting the poor and underprivileged within Chinese society China created a new middle class out of what were previously dirt poor peasants. It was the greatest in scale and most rapid such transformation in history. Even did them the favour of selecting them from their traditional rural villages and bussing them to their confinement in dormitories next to the factories to work 996 (9am to 9pm 6 days a week). You'd be surprised how people prefer working 6 days a week over starving to death. Most do not even consider it exploitation. In our history, we call it opportunity and revolution.

Yes... the British did the same thing to the rustic classes at the beginning of the 19th century...

It gave the likes of Charles Dickins a platform to lay bare the evils of industrialisation and prompted Karl Marx to develop and publish his theories on communism, which was a reaction to the plight of the British lower classes being exploited by the aristocracy and middle and upper-middle classes.

NorthOfNorth wrote on Sep 26^th, 2021 at 4:04pm:

Yadda wrote on Sep 26th, 2021 at 3:16pm: NorthOfNorth wrote on Sep 26th, 2021 at 9:40am: Yadda wrote on Sep 26th, 2021 at 9:34am: "All is fair in love and war."     ? Isn't it ? Politics, is war [warfare]. "The end, justifies the means."     .....and the other moral ways of men.  ? Choose. War is politics by other means. Do you think that because Islam is not involved there's nothing to be prepared for? I think that Xi and the CCP have way, way too much influence, upon politicians and upon political decisions in the West. Xi and the CCP have been playing the West [and China's neighbours] like a fiddle. Xi and the CCP know exactly how [or seem to have a very good idea of how] Western 'democracy's' will respond to each of China's moves. JUST A FEW YEARS AGO..... Remember the concerns expressed in our region, when China began making atolls in the S. China Sea habitable, and making them safe anchorages for Chinese supply ships ? And while everyone simply watched on, China smoothly assured all of the nations surrounding the S. China Sea, that those atolls would not be militarised. And they have been militarised. To what [material] cost to China or to China's economy ? The Chinese regime exploited our human instinct for acquisition and greed by exploiting the poor and underprivileged within Chinese society.

Who is going to contain the ambition of the CCP ?

Not the Western 'democracies'.

It isn't in their remit, to accept responsibility, to bring justice to the victims of the CCP.
.....not while there is a dollar to be made while those victims are being exploited.



If China were to invade/attack Taiwan, would the West come to Taiwan's rescue/support ?

I do hope so.

But i'm not going to bet on it.


.


Words a cheap.

Deeds are fruits, words are but leaves.

Words are but leaves, that will blow away in the first strong wind.

“We make men without chests and expect from them virtue and enterprise.
We laugh at honor and are shocked to find traitors in our midst.”
- The Abolition of Man, by C.S. Lewis



Does anyone believe that a weak U.S. Administration won't present a ready excuse,
as to why, not to come to Taiwan's aid in a time of its peril ?

Quote:

Yes... the British did the same thing to the rustic classes at the beginning of the 19th century...

No. They did it to themselves. They chose to work. Far harder than they ever did as serfs. You sit on your couch with a meal that you had to work about ten minutes to pay for, condemning the industrialists as if they had ripped you from your easy lifestyle and denied you union representation and smoko, completely clueless as to how revolutionary it was.

The British ruling class did not force them to. They merely permitted them to. All they had to do was get out of the way and let it happen, and the working class created the civilisation you now enjoy.

freediver wrote on Sep 26^th, 2021 at 4:29pm:

Quote: Yes... the British did the same thing to the rustic classes at the beginning of the 19th century... No. They did it to themselves. They chose to work. Far harder than they ever did as serfs. You sit on your couch with a meal that you had to work about ten minutes to pay for, condemning the industrialists as if they had ripped you from your easy lifestyle and denied you union representation and smoko, completely clueless as to how revolutionary it was. The British ruling class did not force them to. They merely permitted them to.

Yes, It's their fault... They made slaves out of themselves, those fools.

The collapse and revolution that Marx predicted in Britain did not occur largely because of the union movements towards the end of the 19th century.

Unfortunately, the Chinese cannot unionise unless it's managed and controlled by the Chinese regime.

Quote:

Yes, It's their fault... They made slaves out of themselves, those fools.

They made their descendants, and often themselves, rich beyond their ability to imagine. They also lead a revolution that has freed half the world.

I realise some people have a moral objection to hard work, but it is not the same as slavery.

NorthOfNorth wrote on Sep 26^th, 2021 at 9:04am:

Lisa Jones wrote on Sep 26th, 2021 at 8:40am: And the tragedy is this : many have yet to realise this. Covid19 is a convenient distraction. I'm not saying it's not real. It is. Make no mistake. It's real. A bio weapon which plays a part in all this. But whilst we're being distracted by it .... the real politics of our time is being played. Quietly. Concentration camps, people going missing, extreme censoring of the media and well written propaganda - the Nazis were cruel but they did not have modern day technology as well. Yes... While the pandemic was not a planned event, it's clear the Chinese regime is exploiting the distraction.

It's very probable that the pandemic resulted unexpectedly after it was tested on poor unsuspecting Chinese.

This isn't extremist thinking. This is how totalitarian regimes function. Especially left wing totalitarian regimes. They use their own people as lab rats.

Look what's happened since. We've all been caught up in that experiment. The ever changing Covid19 virus has killed innocent people. The rushed jabs in response to this virus have also killed innocent people.

But the real WAR games which are being played out behind this global Covid19 smokescreen need to be realised. While we're being told to focus on numbers infected each day by the media .... China is playing an even deadlier game. It's pushing on with expansionist policies and is baiting the world as it moves to reclaim key territorial regions which the Chinese believe are rightfully theirs.

Meantime a handful of multinational corporations with an oligarchy of well known elite MEN are making trillions of dollars out of vaccines. And clean water. These 2 commodities will define our world's future. And as I type these 2 commodities are making billions for certain individuals. In India.

The whole thing makes me feel sick. Politics is a grubby game. Only the filthiest grub will win. The rest will lose.

freediver wrote on Sep 26^th, 2021 at 4:36pm:

Quote: Yes, It's their fault... They made slaves out of themselves, those fools. They made their descendants, and often themselves, rich beyond their ability to imagine. They also lead a revolution that has freed half the world. I realise some people have a moral objection to hard work, but it is not the same as slavery.

They became economic slaves because once the system was established, making products as cheaply as possible was the only driver.

So, even if the factory owner had a sense of compassion for the workers, he could do little about it as, if he paid the workers more or gave them better conditions, the cost of the product would increase and he'd be knocked out of the market by competitors.

Both Dickens and Marx witnessed this vortex with the former using it as the foundation of so many of his novels while the latter predicted revolution and collapse.

Unionising saved the worker from this exploitation which ultimately resulted in the 8 hour working day, better pay and conditions.

Lisa Jones wrote on Sep 26^th, 2021 at 4:36pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Sep 26th, 2021 at 9:04am: Lisa Jones wrote on Sep 26th, 2021 at 8:40am: And the tragedy is this : many have yet to realise this. Covid19 is a convenient distraction. I'm not saying it's not real. It is. Make no mistake. It's real. A bio weapon which plays a part in all this. But whilst we're being distracted by it .... the real politics of our time is being played. Quietly. Concentration camps, people going missing, extreme censoring of the media and well written propaganda - the Nazis were cruel but they did not have modern day technology as well. Yes... While the pandemic was not a planned event, it's clear the Chinese regime is exploiting the distraction. It's very probable that the pandemic resulted unexpectedly after it was tested on poor unsuspecting Chinese. This isn't extremist thinking. This is how totalitarian regimes function. Especially left wing totalitarian regimes. They use their own people as lab rats.

Possible but highly unlikely.

The lableak was almost certainly an accident due to extremely lax security and safety precautions which plagues every Chinese industry.

The Chinese regime probably exploited the accident by ensuring it was exported such that not only China would be faced with a cleanup alone.

NorthOfNorth wrote on Sep 26^th, 2021 at 4:50pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on Sep 26th, 2021 at 4:36pm: NorthOfNorth wrote on Sep 26th, 2021 at 9:04am: Lisa Jones wrote on Sep 26th, 2021 at 8:40am: And the tragedy is this : many have yet to realise this. Covid19 is a convenient distraction. I'm not saying it's not real. It is. Make no mistake. It's real. A bio weapon which plays a part in all this. But whilst we're being distracted by it .... the real politics of our time is being played. Quietly. Concentration camps, people going missing, extreme censoring of the media and well written propaganda - the Nazis were cruel but they did not have modern day technology as well. Yes... While the pandemic was not a planned event, it's clear the Chinese regime is exploiting the distraction. It's very probable that the pandemic resulted unexpectedly after it was tested on poor unsuspecting Chinese. This isn't extremist thinking. This is how totalitarian regimes function. Especially left wing totalitarian regimes. They use their own people as lab rats. Possible but highly unlikely. The lableak was almost certainly an accident due to extremely lax security and safety precautions which plagues every Chinese industry. The Chinese regime probably exploited the accident by ensuring it was exported such that not only China would be faced with a cleanup alone.

😮

I never considered that possibility.

That's probably it!

Dear God what have they unleashed? No vaccine seems to be able to keep up with its ever changing variant 😩

Lisa Jones wrote on Sep 26^th, 2021 at 4:56pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Sep 26th, 2021 at 4:50pm: Lisa Jones wrote on Sep 26th, 2021 at 4:36pm: NorthOfNorth wrote on Sep 26th, 2021 at 9:04am: Lisa Jones wrote on Sep 26th, 2021 at 8:40am: And the tragedy is this : many have yet to realise this. Covid19 is a convenient distraction. I'm not saying it's not real. It is. Make no mistake. It's real. A bio weapon which plays a part in all this. But whilst we're being distracted by it .... the real politics of our time is being played. Quietly. Concentration camps, people going missing, extreme censoring of the media and well written propaganda - the Nazis were cruel but they did not have modern day technology as well. Yes... While the pandemic was not a planned event, it's clear the Chinese regime is exploiting the distraction. It's very probable that the pandemic resulted unexpectedly after it was tested on poor unsuspecting Chinese. This isn't extremist thinking. This is how totalitarian regimes function. Especially left wing totalitarian regimes. They use their own people as lab rats. Possible but highly unlikely. The lableak was almost certainly an accident due to extremely lax security and safety precautions which plagues every Chinese industry. The Chinese regime probably exploited the accident by ensuring it was exported such that not only China would be faced with a cleanup alone. 😮 I never considered that possibility. That's probably it! Dear God what have they unleashed? No vaccine seems to be able to keep up with its ever changing variant 😩

Yes... And another fact that steers the cause away from a consciously unleashed Chinese bioweapon is that they have developed the world's least efficacious vaccine.

NorthOfNorth wrote on Sep 26^th, 2021 at 10:08am:

Belgarion wrote on Sep 26th, 2021 at 10:07am: How long before our very own little 50c warrior Athos pops up to justify this?  ::) Tick, Tick, Tick...

https://media2.giphy.com/media/3w0HcjTFj8URW/200.gif

freediver wrote on Sep 26^th, 2021 at 4:36pm:

Quote: Yes, It's their fault... They made slaves out of themselves, those fools. They made their descendants, and often themselves, rich beyond their ability to imagine. They also lead a revolution that has freed half the world. I realise some people have a moral objection to hard work, but it is not the same as slavery.

... but all of that only took place because the workers organised into Unions and the fight was long and hard, and often bloody... it's not as if the Robber Barons kindly gave to their workers... and it's not as if our own home-grown and imported New Robber Barons (and that includes the Labor Party and some Union people) will not take back all the gains if we let them.

In the interests of furthering feminist exploitation and domination, the current Union movement goes to war with its own - as long as that part of 'own' is male dominated.  All those hairy building workers etc are chauvinists and patriarchal violent oppressors, you know.... but when the nurses and teachers - female dominated - go out for money etc, it's all - "The Poor Angels!"

NorthOfNorth wrote on Sep 26^th, 2021 at 9:04am:

Lisa Jones wrote on Sep 26th, 2021 at 8:40am: And the tragedy is this : many have yet to realise this. Covid19 is a convenient distraction. I'm not saying it's not real. It is. Make no mistake. It's real. A bio weapon which plays a part in all this. But whilst we're being distracted by it .... the real politics of our time is being played. Quietly. Concentration camps, people going missing, extreme censoring of the media and well written propaganda - the Nazis were cruel but they did not have modern day technology as well. Yes... While the pandemic was not a planned event, it's clear the Chinese regime is exploiting the distraction.

lol

and every other politician on earth is not? :D :D :D :D

aquascoot wrote on Sep 26^th, 2021 at 5:36pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Sep 26th, 2021 at 9:04am: Lisa Jones wrote on Sep 26th, 2021 at 8:40am: And the tragedy is this : many have yet to realise this. Covid19 is a convenient distraction. I'm not saying it's not real. It is. Make no mistake. It's real. A bio weapon which plays a part in all this. But whilst we're being distracted by it .... the real politics of our time is being played. Quietly. Concentration camps, people going missing, extreme censoring of the media and well written propaganda - the Nazis were cruel but they did not have modern day technology as well. Yes... While the pandemic was not a planned event, it's clear the Chinese regime is exploiting the distraction. lol and every other politician on earth is not? :D :D :D :D

There are no politicians in the world who have benefitted much from the pandemic with the possible exceptions of Mark McGowan and Jacinda Ardern and Tsai Ing-wen.

Quote:

They became economic slaves because once the system was established, making products as cheaply as possible was the only driver.

Hard work is not the same thing as slavery, despite the moral objection you seem to have to it. They literally lifted themselves out of poverty, and we have them to thank for our easy lifestyle.


Quote:

Unionising saved the worker from this exploitation which ultimately resulted in the 8 hour working day, better pay and conditions

Crap. All they ever achieved was trading off a few conditions for an increase in unemployment. They were not the driver for any real change.


Quote:

So, even if the factory owner had a sense of compassion for the workers, he could do little about it as, if he paid the workers more or gave them better conditions, the cost of the product would increase and he'd be knocked out of the market by competitors.

You acknowledge market forces when it suits your childish, simplistic propaganda, but you deny the fact that factory owners etc also end up having to pay their employees more for less work, or risk losing them to the competition also.

freediver wrote on Sep 26^th, 2021 at 6:11pm:

Quote: They became economic slaves because once the system was established, making products as cheaply as possible was the only driver. Hard work is not the same thing as slavery, despite the moral objection you seem to have to it. They literally lifted themselves out of poverty, and we have them to thank for our easy lifestyle.

There's a difference between hard work and economic slavery... Read your Dickens.

freediver wrote on Sep 26^th, 2021 at 6:11pm:

Quote: They became economic slaves because once the system was established, making products as cheaply as possible was the only driver. Hard work is not the same thing as slavery, despite the moral objection you seem to have to it. They literally lifted themselves out of poverty, and we have them to thank for our easy lifestyle.

that assumes we think an "easy " lifestyle is something to be thankful for.

it is actually catastrophic

freediver wrote on Sep 26^th, 2021 at 6:11pm:

Crap. All they ever achieved was trading off a few conditions for an increase in unemployment. They were not the driver for any real change.

No. It was the cause of all employers having to play by the same rules of justice and equity for the worker.

NorthOfNorth wrote on Sep 26^th, 2021 at 6:14pm:

freediver wrote on Sep 26th, 2021 at 6:11pm: Quote: They became economic slaves because once the system was established, making products as cheaply as possible was the only driver. Hard work is not the same thing as slavery, despite the moral objection you seem to have to it. They literally lifted themselves out of poverty, and we have them to thank for our easy lifestyle. There's a difference between hard work and economic slavery... Read your Dickens.

Can you explain what the difference is?


Quote:

that assumes we think an "easy " lifestyle is something to be thankful for. it is actually catastrophic

Life has been getting easier for centuries. When is this catastrophe going to come? Before or after Jesus?

aquascoot wrote on Sep 26^th, 2021 at 6:14pm:

that assumes we think an "easy " lifestyle is something to be thankful for. it is actually catastrophic

so sell your cars, throw out your oven and microwave, throw out the washing machine and dryer ... and live by your beliefs.

freediver wrote on Sep 26^th, 2021 at 6:16pm:

Can you explain what the difference is?

Well, if there are no laws about how hard you can drive your workforce, then, ultimately they'll be driven to collapse.

This is exactly what's happening in China, which is at about 1850 on European chronology.

NorthOfNorth wrote on Sep 26^th, 2021 at 6:15pm:

freediver wrote on Sep 26th, 2021 at 6:11pm: Crap. All they ever achieved was trading off a few conditions for an increase in unemployment. They were not the driver for any real change. No. It was the cause of all employers having to play by the same rules of justice and equity for the worker.

It was not, as you claim, the fundamental driver for improved conditions. They can only ever fiddle around the edges, because unions play with the trade-off between unemployment and minimum standards. Every improvement they make comes at the expense of jobs. The improvements that result naturally from market forces do not.

NorthOfNorth wrote on Sep 26^th, 2021 at 6:18pm:

freediver wrote on Sep 26th, 2021 at 6:16pm: Can you explain what the difference is? Well, if there are no laws about how hard you can drive your workforce, then, ultimately they'll be driven to collapse.

Crap.

Why do you deny market forces when it does not suit your propaganda, but trot them out when they do?

Here it is again for you. Try thinking before resp-onding:

You acknowledge market forces when it suits your childish, simplistic propaganda, but you deny the fact that factory owners etc also end up having to pay their employees more for less work, or risk losing them to the competition also.

freediver wrote on Sep 26^th, 2021 at 6:20pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Sep 26th, 2021 at 6:15pm: freediver wrote on Sep 26th, 2021 at 6:11pm: Crap. All they ever achieved was trading off a few conditions for an increase in unemployment. They were not the driver for any real change. No. It was the cause of all employers having to play by the same rules of justice and equity for the worker. It was not, as you claim, the fundamental driver for improved conditions. They can only ever fiddle around the edges, because unions play with the trade-off between unemployment and minimum standards. Every improvement they make comes at the expense of jobs. The improvements that result naturally from market forces do not.

Anachronistic thought... What a curse.

freediver wrote on Sep 26^th, 2021 at 6:21pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Sep 26th, 2021 at 6:18pm: freediver wrote on Sep 26th, 2021 at 6:16pm: Can you explain what the difference is? Well, if there are no laws about how hard you can drive your workforce, then, ultimately they'll be driven to collapse. Crap. Why do you deny market forces when it does not suit your propaganda, but trot them out when they do? Here it is again for you. Try thinking before resp-onding: You acknowledge market forces when it suits your childish, simplistic propaganda, but you deny the fact that factory owners etc also end up having to pay their employees more for less work, or risk losing them to the competition also.

They all, equally, provide the worker with respectful conditions and pay, so the worker can have a life worth living and thereby securing the psychological wellbeing of his/her children and his/her children's children and... aww you get the point.

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Anachronistic thought... What a curse

Can you use reason and logic, rather than the simplistic, childish slogans you here at the local socialist club meeting?


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They all, equally

Who are they?

freediver wrote on Sep 26^th, 2021 at 6:26pm:

Quote: They all, equally Who are they?

The employer.

China is sociopathic.

Are you saying all employers are equal? Is this some form of absurd communism for the people you are jealous of?

The greatest driver for improved conditions, is employers offering people different conditions, and employees having the right to choose. The idea that improvement is driven by imposing the same standards on all employees and denying them choice is simply absurd. It is the unions playing God and pretending everyone wants the same thing and they know what it is.

Do you acknowledge that market forces force factory owners etc to pay their employees more for less work, or risk losing them to the competition?

freediver wrote on Sep 26^th, 2021 at 6:31pm:

The idea that improvement is driven by imposing the same standards on all employees and denying them choice is simply absurd.

It is the only reason employers are forced (and in many cases happy) to play fair to the employee.

Only the threat of proscription prevents exploitation... The lack of proscription is why slavery exists/existed and persisted for as long as it did.