Seems turbo petrols are the future.
They can be tuned for whatever purpose, reliability seems good. More efficient.

The  torque power curve from a mazda 2.5 turbo has diesel like characteristics

Sprint

What we need to understand is that manufacturers have finally cottoned onto the idea of built-in redundancy

It's simply not good business to produce a Toyota Corolla in 1980
That does 500000 km
That's not a profitable business model

The profitable business model
Is to  over engineer
Every aspect of the car that you can

For two reasons

So that you can computerize the diagnostics and force the consumer to go back to th manufacturers dealership network where he can be price gouged

And to building certain guaranteed aspects of catastrophic failure
Which will occur shortly after the warranty period expires

We have had this discussion already with regards to
Sealed automatic transmission units

They will probably fail at 7 to 8 years
And with a replacement cost of perhaps 10 grand
The car is now trashed
and the consumer shells out for a new round of purchasing finance and servicing

It's not just automatic transmissions obviously
Starter motors are put in incredibly difficult places to get to
So that servicing costs a bomb
Suspension systemsrun by individual computers on each wheel
ABS is run in a similar very expensive modality

Even some of the collision prevention systems
Have diagnostics built into the windscreen

What used to be a insignificant chip in your windscreen
Now becomes $1,000 computer software repair

If manufacturers are saying it turbo petrol is the way to go
I will guarantee you that turbo petrol is the way to go
In terms of maximizing the profits for manufacturers
And insuring that your car is always at the dealer
Having expensive turbo reconditioning
And that the unit fails in a timely manner so that you can shall out for another such vehicle

aquascoot wrote on Dec 3^rd, 2020 at 8:26am:

They will probably fail at 7 to 8 years And with a replacement cost of perhaps 10 grand The car is now trashed and the consumer shells out for a new round of purchasing finance and servicing It's not just automatic transmissions obviously Starter motors are put in incredibly difficult places to get to So that servicing costs a bomb Suspension systemsrun by individual computers on each wheel ABS is run in a similar very expensive modality Even some of the collision prevention systems Have diagnostics built into the windscreen What used to be a insignificant chip in your windscreen Now becomes $1,000 computer software repair If manufacturers are saying it turbo petrol is the way to go I will guarantee you that turbo petrol is the way to go In terms of maximizing the profits for manufacturers And insuring that your car is always at the dealer Having expensive turbo reconditioning And that the unit fails in a timely manner so that you can shall out for another such vehicle

No it isn't but for the sake of emissions, manufacturing etc, who cares.

Parts Department makes the most money for dealership - especially through the Mechanics Shop. Cars being sold (and I've worked in a successful Toyota dealership when it comes to vehicles sold. Parts & Accessories makes the most money.

They want the old cars off the road (like what Keating did and Gillard wanted) - to help the selling turnover of the Auto Industry. They also would like people to have a 4 year 'turnover' for each new car.

Atm - there is a backlog of new cars around the world - waiting to be used.

Quite true Jason

The modern motor vehicle is in some ways akin to the modern printer

They don't make much money selling the actual unit
The money is in selling you the very expensive cartridges you need to buy on a regular basis

There is so much bulshit in bojack's statement that
Modern over engineering is designed to reduce emissions and save the planet

The absolute best thing you can do to save the environment
Is 2 by 1 car
And drive it for 25 years

The absolute worst thing you can do
Is to roll over your vehicle's every 5 years
Because there is some new vehicle it produces less emissions
And you are virtue signalling with your new Prius

The cost to the environment of manufacturing these rolling piles of over engineer junk
Is a global disgrace

There are elements of merit in what each of you is saying.

Aquascoot - in typical fashion - has written a novel, in order to bleat about "planned obsolescence". There is some truth to that, but mate...do we really need war and peace to explain the one concept???

Turbo petrol engines are coming "into vogue", because (as was pointed out), they are the most efficient way to get decent performance AND meet ever more stringent emissions regs.

Take Mercedes AMG, as an example.

A decade or so ago, their "go to" performance engine was the 6.2lt M156. Normally aspirated, 336kw and 600Nm of torque.

Then they moved to a 5.5lt V8, this time twin turbocharged. 386kw at the base, and 700Nm of torque...and cheaper on fuel/better emissions.

Today, those same AMGs are powered by a 4.0lt V8 (with the turbos inside the "V"), which produces 375kw and 650Nm of torque, from 1.5lt less than the previous engine (and commensurately reduced fuel consumption/emissions).

Some years back, the wife and I had a nice Subaru Liberty wagon, a 4 cyl 2.5lt Turbo "Tuned by STI" thing.  194KW/353Nm torque, driving all four wheels through a lockable centre diff.

I note that Toyota recently sold (and sold out of) a Yaris Rallye version or some such...

1.6lt 3-cyl engine. 200KW and 370Nm through all four wheels...in a package which weighs a bit less than our old Subaru would have. And almost certainly uses less fuel.

You get the idea...

I hear that diesel has about "hit it's ceiling" in terms of emissions, and so the focus will be on turbo petrol development (in the ICE space), as well as PHEVs and full-electric vehicles going forward.

As for the difficulty and cost in parts and service for new cars...

We have two vehicles. A 3.2lt Grand Vitara, and a 1999 Toyota Corolla.

Last year, the GV would randomly refuse to turn over. Never stranded us anywhere (the starter would eventually "fire"), but we need a new starter for it.

Got it quoted by Suzuki. ~$600 and a four week wait. Got the part number from them and searched for it online. found an equivalent model on ebay, brand new for $180. (Hmmm...where do I sign?)

Arranged to have it fitted, and got a quote of an hour at ~$160. Took 'em three hours to fit it (they honoured the quote, BTW).

Needed an engine mount. Same thing. Parts can be had relatively cheaply, if you know where to look.

The little Corolla?

Venerable 7a-fe and 5-speed manual transaxle. 200,000+kms and still going strong.

Parts are cheap and plentiful, and servicing - most of which I do myself - is relatively straight forward.

Oil and filter change in about half an hour. And most of that is allowing all the old oil to drain out.

We look after it, and it still looks in better nick than most cars half its age.

I think the Yaris is now made by Mazda on behalf of Toyota

Mazda are slightly over engineered

But in all honesty if you stick to Mazda Toyota or Honda you are probably getting a good product
Honda particularly make excellent four-stroke engines

aquascoot wrote on Dec 3^rd, 2020 at 9:51am:

I think the Yaris is now made by Mazda on behalf of Toyota Mazda are slightly over engineered But in all honesty if you stick to Mazda Toyota or Honda you are probably getting a good product Honda particularly make excellent four-stroke engines

Only half right. Its only in the US that the Mazda 2 is being sold as the Yaris. We here  get the actual Toyota developed Yaris.

not a huge fan of the yaris
the corolla for sure
the honda HRV also
even the Jazz is a good ride

aquascoot wrote on Dec 3^rd, 2020 at 12:14pm:

not a huge fan of the yaris the corolla for sure the honda HRV also even the Jazz is a good ride

200kw/370Nm?

AWD with lockable centre diff?

6-speed manual?

The usual active and passive safety gear?

What's not to like?*

* I am referring to the top-of-the-range "Rallye" version. I've no idea what the base model "cooking " versions are like.

That ones pretty dear.
Mid 40's for a yaris.

It's the celica project reborn.

A good Sunday drive.

Maybe not a good daily commute.

All things like AWD etc just amp up repair/ service  costs.

Turbo on a 3 cylinder?? 

I like to keep things simple for the workhorse car but it would be a good toy.
I wouldn't want it as my primary drive.

Probably wont hold its resale value as it will be brought and thrashed by rich young kids

Common for 3 cylinder turbos. 3 cylinders are coming back into fashion

Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Dec 3^rd, 2020 at 1:18pm:

Common for 3 cylinder turbos. 3 cylinders are coming back into fashion

just because things are "fashionable' doesnt make them fit for purpose.
though i do trust toyota.

its a drivers car.

going to depreciate and be a money pit in the end but enjoy yourself

aquascoot wrote on Dec 3^rd, 2020 at 1:22pm:

Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Dec 3rd, 2020 at 1:18pm: Common for 3 cylinder turbos. 3 cylinders are coming back into fashion just because things are "fashionable' doesnt make them fit for purpose. though i do trust toyota. its a drivers car. going to depreciate and be a money pit in the end but enjoy yourself

You should have stuck to horses. All they require for maintenance is a shovel.

aquascoot wrote on Dec 3^rd, 2020 at 1:22pm:

going to depreciate and be a money pit in the end but enjoy yourself

So in other words you're describing a car. They all depreciate. They depreciate the moment you drive out the yard.

Not at the same rate , they don't.

An 45,000 yaris rallye might be worth $15,000 at 100,000 k

A 25,000 corolla might be worth 15,000 at 100,000 k.

You just burnt 20,000.

And the figures are atrocious for 5 yo  BMW , porche, audis .
You are burning 10 to 15 a year.

Much less depreciation if you buy a Honda accord or a Lexus

aquascoot wrote on Dec 3^rd, 2020 at 2:29pm:

Not at the same rate , they don't. An 45,000 yaris rallye might be worth $15,000 at 100,000 k A 25,000 corolla might be worth 15,000 at 100,000 k. You just burnt 20,000. And the figures are atrocious for 5 yo  BMW , porche, audis . You are burning 10 to 15 a year. Much less depreciation if you buy a Honda accord or a Lexus

Because they are cheaper. But my point still stands.

I'm approaching it from a point of view of trying to put my kids and their friends into good cars for about , say , 10 to 20.

They see second hand bmws or vw golfs with 100,000 k for very low prices.

But it's a trap.

The first thing that breaks and your toast.

A catalytic converter for an Audi Quattro is 4,500 with labor.

So I really try to steer the young kids into civics, corollas, Mazda 3's, or maybe even hyundai s ( the base models).

They don't cost a fortune to maintain and parts are cheap and you don't need special tools to work on them.

My son has 2 cars

A Toyota Cressida which he got for $800 and a petrol hilux with 300,000 that is a bit of a mess but he got it for 900.  Both are still running 3 yrs later and all he has spent is money replacing fluids .

My daughters boyfriend came with a 7 yo BMW.
He has spent the equivalent of a house deposit, keeping it running.

If you want a European car, then become a small businessman and lease it.
Then you can hand it back.
And you can write off all the costs

Congrats, so a highly specific instance

If  you want to go to the marketplace.

Go check what a 5 yo Audi, jaguar, BMW, Mini Cooper or VW sells for at cars ales.com.au


Probably about 1/4 of its original sale price ( if that)

Then go check what a 5 yo Lexus, Honda accord ,  Mazda 6 or Camry sells for.

Probably about 1/2 it's original price.

But even then you are better off avoiding the older European car, because it will be an ENDLESS MONEY PIT.

::) ::)

So 3 cyl turbo Toyota it is

The paradoxical thing is that because toyotas hold their value so well ( though I think Mazda and Honda are just as good), you are ok to buy a new one because you don't take such a hit if you have to sell it in 5 years.

That is MORE true for corollas which are cheaper then camrys new, but are more expensive then camrys as time goes on.

That may not be true of a yaris rallye because that's not a boring car and the perception is that the owner may have flogged it.

I would keep meticulous service records and probably get a good scan tool for that car and record some driving data to show you weren't being abusive to it .

GOing for a ute anyway

i always buy utes because there is no FBT to pay for the business

aquascoot wrote on Dec 3^rd, 2020 at 3:32pm:

i always buy utes because there is no FBT to pay for the business

I'[m not a business, I'm not a tradie.

The biggest problem is the way car manufacturers think only tradies and workers want utes that they can fit caravans in.

Aqua one way to go is a 3 year old Merc with full Merc service history. It's been hit hard with the depreciation stick and you get a lovely car and if anything goes wrong Merc are reasonable at out of warranty claims.

Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Dec 3^rd, 2020 at 2:38pm:

aquascoot wrote on Dec 3rd, 2020 at 2:29pm: Not at the same rate , they don't. An 45,000 yaris rallye might be worth $15,000 at 100,000 k A 25,000 corolla might be worth 15,000 at 100,000 k. You just burnt 20,000. And the figures are atrocious for 5 yo  BMW , porche, audis . You are burning 10 to 15 a year. Much less depreciation if you buy a Honda accord or a Lexus Because they are cheaper. But my point still stands.

Some cars depreciate at a much faster rate. Check out the price of 4 year old volvos

Gordon wrote on Dec 3^rd, 2020 at 3:45pm:

Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Dec 3rd, 2020 at 2:38pm: aquascoot wrote on Dec 3rd, 2020 at 2:29pm: Not at the same rate , they don't. An 45,000 yaris rallye might be worth $15,000 at 100,000 k A 25,000 corolla might be worth 15,000 at 100,000 k. You just burnt 20,000. And the figures are atrocious for 5 yo  BMW , porche, audis . You are burning 10 to 15 a year. Much less depreciation if you buy a Honda accord or a Lexus Because they are cheaper. But my point still stands. Some cars depreciate at a much faster rate. Check out the price of 4 year old volvos

Indeed, my point still stands about depreciation.

Bojak will buy an amarok

Gordon wrote on Dec 3^rd, 2020 at 3:39pm:

Aqua one way to go is a 3 year old Merc with full Merc service history. It's been hit hard with the depreciation stick and you get a lovely car and if anything goes wrong Merc are reasonable at out of warranty claims.

its the paradox gordon,
it sort of proves the point of "pure markets".

a second hand merc is a money pit but incredible value compared to new.

a second hand toyota is very poor value. (because it hasnt gotten cheap)


most luxury cars are leased by doctors, lawyers, real estate agents , written off and flipped after 3 or so years.

so they might still have some good miles in them.

but beware that you probably will get nothing for it when it is 10 years old and you wont be able to do any servicing on it above the basics and the dealers will extort you if something fails .

that actually ISNT true of some european vans.
the mercedes delivery vans are awesome.

why?

because they arent brought by rich professionals who waste cash

they are brought by logistics companies with accountants who crunch numbers.

and if your mercedes van costs a bomb to service, those accountants are onto it.
and its bye bye mercedes

aquascoot wrote on Dec 3^rd, 2020 at 4:53pm:

Gordon wrote on Dec 3rd, 2020 at 3:39pm: Aqua one way to go is a 3 year old Merc with full Merc service history. It's been hit hard with the depreciation stick and you get a lovely car and if anything goes wrong Merc are reasonable at out of warranty claims. its the paradox gordon, it sort of proves the point of "pure markets". a second hand merc is a money pit but incredible value compared to new. a second hand toyota is very poor value. (because it hasnt gotten cheap) most luxury cars are leased by doctors, lawyers, real estate agents , written off and flipped after 3 or so years. so they might still have some good miles in them. but beware that you probably will get nothing for it when it is 10 years old and you wont be able to do any servicing on it above the basics and the dealers will extort you if something fails . that actually ISNT true of some european vans. the mercedes delivery vans are awesome. why? because they arent brought by rich professionals who waste cash they are brought by logistics companies with accountants who crunch numbers. and if your mercedes van costs a bomb to service, those accountants are onto it. and its bye bye mercedes

A believe about 70% of new Mercs in Australia are leased, so I'd love to see their balance sheet and suspect revenue from leasing and finance beats parts :)

Also, early this year Merc changed their warranty from 3 to 5 years but of course, the lease stays at 36 months so it will be interesting to see how well that supports the used price.

Sprintcyclist wrote on Dec 3^rd, 2020 at 4:09am:

Seems turbo petrols are the future. They can be tuned for whatever purpose, reliability seems good. More efficient. The  torque power curve from a mazda 2.5 turbo has diesel like characteristics

Turbos can be expensive when service requires a turbo rebuild. Check service records before buying second hand they might be due for one.

They also need premium 98 octane if they have reasonable boost.

With the speed limits we have along with revenue raising speed cameras you don't really need a turbo unless it's a turbo diesel for towing.

aquascoot wrote on Dec 3^rd, 2020 at 3:26pm:

The paradoxical thing is that because toyotas hold their value so well ( though I think Mazda and Honda are just as good), you are ok to buy a new one because you don't take such a hit if you have to sell it in 5 years. That is MORE true for corollas which are cheaper then camrys new, but are more expensive then camrys as time goes on. That may not be true of a yaris rallye because that's not a boring car and the perception is that the owner may have flogged it. I would keep meticulous service records and probably get a good scan tool for that car and record some driving data to show you weren't being abusive to it .

I researched used Corollas to buy about a decade ago.
I thought they depreciated so little, you may as well buy a brand new one !!!


Bought my camry about 5 years ago for $6500.
It now has 275,000 kms on it, is a 2008 model.
Prob get $5000 for it ?
It's a really good car, carries a 2.4M length of wood on it easily.
Quiet, smooth to drive. Usual repair bills, tyres, brakes, servicing. 

Sprintcyclist wrote on Dec 3^rd, 2020 at 7:22pm:

aquascoot wrote on Dec 3rd, 2020 at 3:26pm: The paradoxical thing is that because toyotas hold their value so well ( though I think Mazda and Honda are just as good), you are ok to buy a new one because you don't take such a hit if you have to sell it in 5 years. That is MORE true for corollas which are cheaper then camrys new, but are more expensive then camrys as time goes on. That may not be true of a yaris rallye because that's not a boring car and the perception is that the owner may have flogged it. I would keep meticulous service records and probably get a good scan tool for that car and record some driving data to show you weren't being abusive to it . I researched used Corollas to buy about a decade ago. I thought they depreciated so little, you may as well buy a brand new one !!! Bought my camry about 5 years ago for $6500. It now has 275,000 kms on it, is a 2008 model. Prob get $5000 for it ? It's a really good car, carries a 2.4M length of wood on it easily. Quiet, smooth to drive. Usual repair bills, tyres, brakes, servicing.

Aqua is spot on regarding Toyota depreciation. (lack of).

I like to buy 18 month old cars with very low Ks for a bargain.
Wifey wanted a Rav so went looking at used, and used car dealers were actually selling old shape ones, 2 year old for what I could buy the comparable new shape for.

Amazing.

Gordon wrote on Dec 3^rd, 2020 at 4:24pm:

Bojak will buy an amarok

Ford Maverick if it gets here

Gordon wrote on Dec 3^rd, 2020 at 7:31pm:

Sprintcyclist wrote on Dec 3rd, 2020 at 7:22pm: aquascoot wrote on Dec 3rd, 2020 at 3:26pm: The paradoxical thing is that because toyotas hold their value so well ( though I think Mazda and Honda are just as good), you are ok to buy a new one because you don't take such a hit if you have to sell it in 5 years. That is MORE true for corollas which are cheaper then camrys new, but are more expensive then camrys as time goes on. That may not be true of a yaris rallye because that's not a boring car and the perception is that the owner may have flogged it. I would keep meticulous service records and probably get a good scan tool for that car and record some driving data to show you weren't being abusive to it . I researched used Corollas to buy about a decade ago. I thought they depreciated so little, you may as well buy a brand new one !!! Bought my camry about 5 years ago for $6500. It now has 275,000 kms on it, is a 2008 model. Prob get $5000 for it ? It's a really good car, carries a 2.4M length of wood on it easily. Quiet, smooth to drive. Usual repair bills, tyres, brakes, servicing.  Aqua is spot on regarding Toyota depreciation. (lack of). I like to buy 18 month old cars with very low Ks for a bargain. Wifey wanted a Rav so went looking at used, and used car dealers were actually selling old shape ones, 2 year old for what I could buy the comparable new shape for. Amazing.

Dealer demonstrators are good value usually have around 2000 km with huge discount and full warranty.

My Lancer VRX was $35K new being a demonstrator they knocked it down to $25K with 10 year drivetrain warranty.

Gordon wrote on Dec 3^rd, 2020 at 7:31pm:

Sprintcyclist wrote on Dec 3rd, 2020 at 7:22pm: aquascoot wrote on Dec 3rd, 2020 at 3:26pm: The paradoxical thing is that because toyotas hold their value so well ( though I think Mazda and Honda are just as good), you are ok to buy a new one because you don't take such a hit if you have to sell it in 5 years. That is MORE true for corollas which are cheaper then camrys new, but are more expensive then camrys as time goes on. That may not be true of a yaris rallye because that's not a boring car and the perception is that the owner may have flogged it. I would keep meticulous service records and probably get a good scan tool for that car and record some driving data to show you weren't being abusive to it . I researched used Corollas to buy about a decade ago. I thought they depreciated so little, you may as well buy a brand new one !!! Bought my camry about 5 years ago for $6500. It now has 275,000 kms on it, is a 2008 model. Prob get $5000 for it ? It's a really good car, carries a 2.4M length of wood on it easily. Quiet, smooth to drive. Usual repair bills, tyres, brakes, servicing.  Aqua is spot on regarding Toyota depreciation. (lack of). I like to buy 18 month old cars with very low Ks for a bargain. Wifey wanted a Rav so went looking at used, and used car dealers were actually selling old shape ones, 2 year old for what I could buy the comparable new shape for. Amazing.

Goodness me !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sprintcyclist wrote on Dec 3^rd, 2020 at 9:04pm:

Gordon wrote on Dec 3rd, 2020 at 7:31pm: Sprintcyclist wrote on Dec 3rd, 2020 at 7:22pm: aquascoot wrote on Dec 3rd, 2020 at 3:26pm: The paradoxical thing is that because toyotas hold their value so well ( though I think Mazda and Honda are just as good), you are ok to buy a new one because you don't take such a hit if you have to sell it in 5 years. That is MORE true for corollas which are cheaper then camrys new, but are more expensive then camrys as time goes on. That may not be true of a yaris rallye because that's not a boring car and the perception is that the owner may have flogged it. I would keep meticulous service records and probably get a good scan tool for that car and record some driving data to show you weren't being abusive to it . I researched used Corollas to buy about a decade ago. I thought they depreciated so little, you may as well buy a brand new one !!! Bought my camry about 5 years ago for $6500. It now has 275,000 kms on it, is a 2008 model. Prob get $5000 for it ? It's a really good car, carries a 2.4M length of wood on it easily. Quiet, smooth to drive. Usual repair bills, tyres, brakes, servicing.  Aqua is spot on regarding Toyota depreciation. (lack of). I like to buy 18 month old cars with very low Ks for a bargain. Wifey wanted a Rav so went looking at used, and used car dealers were actually selling old shape ones, 2 year old for what I could buy the comparable new shape for. Amazing. Goodness me !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Take a look at relatively low km 15+ years old 100-series Land Cruisers...particularly petrol V8 and turbo-diesel 6s.

You'll be surprised (shocked, more likely) at the money they go for.

Primarily, because they are solid vehicles, with a very good parts and support network.

Break down somewhere "out the back of Burke", and your experience will differ, depending on what you're driving.

Scenario 1:

"I'm in a 100-series Cruiser".

"We can have the part here in a week, at worst."

Scenario 2:

"I'm in a <European 4WD>"

"I hope you have plenty of money..." (Or, more likely, "Mate, this is going to cost you a sh*tload!")

Guess which ones go for decent money these days...

back to the topic ................................


Quote:

..........  Things are different today. The current Mustang EcoBoost's standard turbo four-banger makes 310 horsepower and 350 lb-ft of torque. For comparison, the fourth-gen Mustang GT, with its 4.6-liter V-8, maxed out at 260 ponies and 302 lb-ft ............

https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a29145957/2020-ford-mustang-ecoboost-high-performance-drive/#:~:text=Things%20are%20different%20today.,ponies%20and%20302%20lb%2Dft.