Following from the amiable discussion on 4WDs I thought to start this thread.

Automatic transmissions, 90+ % of car sales are autos.

New Autos are great.
Some sales staff say Autos are 'sealed' and required no maintenance for the life of the car.

Well, depends on how long you want the life of your car to be !

Sprintcyclist wrote on Oct 4^th, 2020 at 8:08pm:

Following from the amiable discussion on 4WDs I thought to start this thread. Automatic transmissions, 90+ % of car sales are autos. New Autos are great. Some sales staff say Autos are 'sealed' and required no maintenance for the life of the car. Well, depends on how long you want the life of your car to be !

Hyundai? Apparently that's bunk.

Modern Automatic transmissions are quite complicated really.

The amount of info they use to decide when to shift up or down is far more detailed than the old days.

However, in some ways they are quite "crude" ... imagine having a magnet in there to "suck up" all the fine metal filings that occur from normal wear inside ... that hasn't changed for yonks.

Currently driving an auto for the first time in 4 decades.

Travelling 200K per day my left knee loves it - the rest of me hates it. It is good though.

Captain Nemo wrote on Oct 4^th, 2020 at 9:05pm:

Modern Automatic transmissions are quite complicated really. The amount of info they use to decide when to shift up or down is far more detailed than the old days. However, in some ways they are quite "crude" ... imagine having a magnet in there to "suck up" all the fine metal filings that occur from normal wear inside ... that hasn't changed for yonks.

I thought new autos were amazingly complex.
What do they have, 8 gears?
they change range within 0.2 of a second !!
the efficiency and smoothness of them is pretty much perfect.

I have an old 5 speed auto with 270,000 kms on it.
It's runs very well, quite complex.
Newer 6 or 8 speed autos kick it out of the ballpark.
You could not sell it nowadays.

Generally the life of an auto is reputed to be around 350,000k - one issue I have with computer controlled autos is the length of time it takes them to consider their options before responding to the driver... kinda reminds me of the auto-pilot and the pilot wrestling for control of the aircraft ...

When I hit the pedal to get out of a tight spot - I want instant response - not ...

"umm.. Effendi.... let me think about this for a moment or ten... lessee now - you hit the pedal hard demanding instant performance which requires a gear change for maximum benefit...... ummmmm ... I see no need for that.... we're not on a hill or anything.... ummm-arrrgh.... do you really think you should be doing this, Dave ...... after eighteen months I feel I'm entitled to an answer..... but you're the boss after all...........OK - have it your way you stroppy bastard trying to avoid that farken truck... just don't blame me if it hits u------------"...

Dnarever wrote on Oct 4^th, 2020 at 9:39pm:

Currently driving an auto for the first time in 4 decades. Travelling 200K per day my left knee loves it - the rest of me hates it. It is good though.

I'm happy with cruise control - my old knees and such don't get such a workout..

Sprintcyclist wrote on Oct 4^th, 2020 at 8:08pm:

Following from the amiable discussion on 4WDs I thought to start this thread. Automatic transmissions, 90+ % of car sales are autos. New Autos are great. Some sales staff say Autos are 'sealed' and required no maintenance for the life of the car. Well, depends on how long you want the life of your car to be !

Nooot really - they still should have the fluid changed etc... it's just that there are no inlet pipes or outlet plugs and you have to remove the entire casing from underneath and drain it, then refill it with difficulty.

My trannie (sic) fluid is a bit murky - no magnetic plug there - I want to replace it and put in Nulon etc to prolong gearbox life and make it smoother... but I need Nulon in the spine these days just to get down there, and without a plug draining is a messy job as is refilling without a pipe.

It's designed to keep mechanics in business over-charging at double the going real rate.

Dnarever wrote on Oct 4^th, 2020 at 9:39pm:

Currently driving an auto for the first time in 4 decades. Travelling 200K per day my left knee loves it - the rest of me hates it. It is good though.

So you travelling for work or adventure?

Captain Nemo wrote on Oct 4^th, 2020 at 9:05pm:

Modern Automatic transmissions are quite complicated really. The amount of info they use to decide when to shift up or down is far more detailed than the old days. However, in some ways they are quite "crude" ... imagine having a magnet in there to "suck up" all the fine metal filings that occur from normal wear inside ... that hasn't changed for yonks.

Really? That sounds really cleaver to me. But you know, I never had any aptitude for mechanical things.

The work car is manual transmission. I get to drive it as I am old enough to be one with a manual licence. I drive an automatic car for my personal car. Although it has some get up and go, it is not as powerful as other cars I have driven. But it can get moving when I floor it down the highway.

Grappler Racist Filth wrote on Oct 4^th, 2020 at 11:23pm:

Sprintcyclist wrote on Oct 4th, 2020 at 8:08pm: Following from the amiable discussion on 4WDs I thought to start this thread. Automatic transmissions, 90+ % of car sales are autos. New Autos are great. Some sales staff say Autos are 'sealed' and required no maintenance for the life of the car. Well, depends on how long you want the life of your car to be ! Nooot really - they still should have the fluid changed etc... it's just that there are no inlet pipes or outlet plugs and you have to remove the entire casing from underneath and drain it, then refill it with difficulty. My trannie (sic) fluid is a bit murky - no magnetic plug there - I want to replace it and put in Nulon etc to prolong gearbox life and make it smoother... but I need Nulon in the spine these days just to get down there, and without a plug draining is a messy job as is refilling without a pipe. It's designed to keep mechanics in business over-charging at double the going real rate.

' ............ they still should have the fluid changed etc..  ............ '  Yes

The 'new' 6 speed autos have no dipstick.
Very hard to change the fluid. I have watched a few youtubes, it is complex.

Someone might find and easy way, I hope.

theres no doubt a manual is cheaper and lasts longer.

again sprint , like the covid stuff...follow the money.

toyota have always had the reputation for longevity.

great for the consumer

terrible for toyota.

you really want built in redundancy now .

look at your apple i phone 10 or sansumg 20.

they want you buying the new model.

its good for the corporate profit.

the consumer has been sold on the idea that you turn a car over after 7 or 8 years. (i dont).

its environmentally very bad.

in order to force the consumer out of the car and into the new one, you need a catastrophic failure at about 7 years and thats the auto trannie in many cases.

some are made as sealed units, so they cant be serviced.

and you certainly cant rebuild a modern automatic transmission.

the "fixed price servicing" is also designed to ensure your car fails, just after the fixed price service period ends.

the engineers know you can stretch an oil change out to 20000 km like they do in the new navara.
they know you can seal the trannie and it will last 5 or 6 or 7 years.
the very high tech fuel injectors also cost 1000's to replace.
they know if they change the fuel filter every 40 , they will last longer, so they change it every 100.

they know you can put a timing chain on the engine that never breaks, so they put a timing belt on which inevitably breaks and then you have to junk the car.

the germans are very very cunning.

they put parts like starter motors in really inaccessible places, so you have to disassemble half the negine to replace it at a cost of maybe a 1000 in labour.
they put the fuel pump inside the petrol tank so you have to take the whole tank off the car to replace it.

they know that the plastics they put to hold the brake cylinders and the power steering assembly will fail and crack after so many cycles of being hot and cold...designed to fail after 5 to 7 years (depending on the warranty ;)).

with regards auto trannies specifically.

if you must have an auto (and increasingly you have no choice) do some research and dont get one made by Jatco.
try to get one you can service.

do NOT flush (that stirs up the particles and screws them generally).
do NOT try to service if it is not something you will do regularly. so if its done 200,000 and never been done, leave it alone, the bits of crud now are part of the working mechanism and if you remove them it will fail.

and above all, baby that transmission. nice gentle acceleration up hills especially if towing.

i do all my services twice as regaular as the dealers say.

in fact, never go back to a dealer (though they can be the best source of genuine parts if you can get friendly with a guy in their service department.

do your oil and filter every 10 k.

again , manufacturers are being pricks.
the new hilux has a system of nuts and bolts and retaining screws and difficult access just to change the dammed filter.

drop all the coolant out every 60 and replace.
the little bits of grit in the coolant are what wreck your head gasket.
do your air filter every 40 especially if its dusty.

change out your power steering fluid and you gear box, transfer case and diff oil every 80.

spray a good rubber protecting spray on all the hoses every 6 months

put your battery on the charger every year at least (modern cars only charge to 70 %) and they last better if you put a 100 % charge into them

buy yourself a generic scan tool on ebay ($100) and you can check all the codes and the data.

all the best.

i love driving 15 yo 4 wds that still go beautifully.

All oils degrade over time.

All transmissions cop a hiding.

The biggest enemy of transmissions and oil is heat.
If you have an auto and tow anything, you need to have the tranny oil changed regularly.

I have a 4x4, recently purchased.
The working temps for trannys and the oil therein should never exceed 130 degc.
The hotter the oil, the shorter the tranny life. THIS IS A KNOWN FACT
Seals, which are critical for the tranny to function, will start breaking down the hotter they get.
The oil starts to loose its lubricity and viscosity as it gets hotter, allowing wear and damage to parts.

I fitted a scangauge to my 4x4 when I purchased it to monitor key engine and tranny paramaters.
Towing my boat from the CC to Sydney, the tranny temp hit 110  a couple of times, the ideal temp for a tranny is 80 ish degc.
Tranny temps cooled less effectively than engine coolant temps.
The coolant hit 95 deg c on one hill but cooled very quickly once the hill flattened out.
(diesels run around 85deg c, petrol around 100 deg c)
The tranny took several kilometers to cool.

Autos are generally much better for off roading, but this will be argued by those traditionalists who like manuals.
But an auto can make changes far faster and more in line with engine demands than any manual.

I have my tranny oil changed every second service and a tranny cooler will be fitted when I get my caravan.

I worked with mining machinery for 30 years and these facts are known in that industry.
I have seen tha damage when the tranny oil dies and it aint pretty

good post valkie

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HSZ5-ifYQho

aquascoot wrote on Oct 5^th, 2020 at 10:40am:

good post valkie https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HSZ5-ifYQho

Yeah great clip Valkie. I even subscribed. The guy is quite the card

Valkie wrote on Oct 5^th, 2020 at 7:27am:

All oils degrade over time. All transmissions cop a hiding. The biggest enemy of transmissions and oil is heat. If you have an auto and tow anything, you need to have the tranny oil changed regularly. I have a 4x4, recently purchased. The working temps for trannys and the oil therein should never exceed 130 degc. The hotter the oil, the shorter the tranny life. THIS IS A KNOWN FACT Seals, which are critical for the tranny to function, will start breaking down the hotter they get. The oil starts to loose its lubricity and viscosity as it gets hotter, allowing wear and damage to parts. I fitted a scangauge to my 4x4 when I purchased it to monitor key engine and tranny paramaters. Towing my boat from the CC to Sydney, the tranny temp hit 110  a couple of times, the ideal temp for a tranny is 80 ish degc. Tranny temps cooled less effectively than engine coolant temps. The coolant hit 95 deg c on one hill but cooled very quickly once the hill flattened out. (diesels run around 85deg c, petrol around 100 deg c) The tranny took several kilometers to cool. Autos are generally much better for off roading, but this will be argued by those traditionalists who like manuals. But an auto can make changes far faster and more in line with engine demands than any manual. I have my tranny oil changed every second service and a tranny cooler will be fitted when I get my caravan. I worked with mining machinery for 30 years and these facts are known in that industry. I have seen tha damage when the tranny oil dies and it aint pretty

Thanks Valkie.

That is pretty much my thinking too.
A mechanic told me if an Auto has not had the fluid changed for a long time do NOT change it all at once.
Change 30ish % of it and run it as normal for 3 --> 6 months. Then give it a full change.
I did that with my old Camry and it was good.
The old fluid smelt 'burnt' and as you said, the viscosity had changed.

Someone else said, even if you have not had a lot of kms on an auto, change the fluid.
The technology of fluids have changed a lot recently. The new fluid will be a lot better than the old fluid.

I had to bring my car in for a service or repair over the Christmas/NY week. I took it to Rowell & Searle, specialists in transmissions.

They had a huge load of work, transmissions and other work for people who had towed a caravan to Adelaide obviously without checking coolant, lubricants and transmissions etc. Nuts!

There is a long steep high hill here, Willunga Hill. When I travelled it regularly in the 80s to go work on the houses me and business partner were building I always saw at least half a dozen cars waiting for their radiators to cool down so they could top them up with the containers of water the RAA positioned there. Can imagine it “Lovely day, come on, lets go for a drive to Victor Harbor.” No checking the radiator first!

The manual for my Mazda3 stresses not to coast in neutral, that would damage the automatic axle. So I coast to a slow stop by clicking off cruise control, pretty much the same.

Valkie - I have also read to keep the 'revs' up on an Auto when it is doing heavy work.

ie, when going up a hill or towing something heavy, Lock the auto down into to a lower gear to keep the revs up.


eg - We went up to Mt Tamborine yesterday. On the way up I locked the 5 speed auto into 3rd, sometimes 2nd.
Keeping the revs above 2500 rpm. It is not changing up and down all the time and is spinning happily.

Coming down, my wife locked it into 2nd the whole way. She hardly had to brake, it revs up to 4000 or thereabouts.

A few years ago we went up to Mt Bunya. It was very steep.
I locked it into 2nd gear on the way up and kept the revs above 3000 rpm.
It never got bogged down.

Your thoughts on that?

Sprintcyclist wrote on Oct 4^th, 2020 at 8:08pm:

Following from the amiable discussion on 4WDs I thought to start this thread. Automatic transmissions, 90+ % of car sales are autos. New Autos are great. Some sales staff say Autos are 'sealed' and required no maintenance for the life of the car. Well, depends on how long you want the life of your car to be !

Most cars you can't even get in a manual transmission anymore .... unless you count that clutch less triptonic thing as a manual ... which I don't.

Automatic is for ladies and learners.

Sprintcyclist wrote on Oct 5^th, 2020 at 12:57pm:

Valkie - I have also read to keep the 'revs' up on an Auto when it is doing heavy work. ie, when going up a hill or towing something heavy, Lock the auto down into to a lower gear to keep the revs up. eg - We went up to Mt Tamborine yesterday. On the way up I locked the 5 speed auto into 3rd, sometimes 2nd. Keeping the revs above 2500 rpm. It is not changing up and down all the time and is spinning happily. Coming down, my wife locked it into 2nd the whole way. She hardly had to brake, it revs up to 4000 or thereabouts. A few years ago we went up to Mt Bunya. It was very steep. I locked it into 2nd gear on the way up and kept the revs above 3000 rpm. It never got bogged down. Your thoughts on that?

The revs are more about reducing the stress on the engine than the tranny.

Higher revs mean less stress on the engine(within limits) as it isnt working as hard.

But trannys are different.
The torque converter is a very simple fluid drive.
The oil is directed through a tortuous path to drive the tranny.
The harder the oil is worked, the hotter it gets.
The hotter it gets, the more the oil loses its viscosity.
which means it has to work harder......etc etc.

Many new trannys have a lock that locks the torque converter at speed, to reduce the heat build up and slippage.
The worst thing that trannys hate is continually varying speed.

Unlike engine coolant (which boils and make lots of visible steam etc)
Autos boil and have little external visible indicators.
You can smell them when they get too hot (sweet smell)
By then the damage is done and the oil should be changed.


But when the tranny dies, it is a slow and very expensive problem.
There are symptoms, rarely identified by drivers .
The smell is first
Then leaks as the seals die
Tranny does strange things, changing early or late, slipping between gears etc.
Then there are whines, noises and finally catastrophic failure.

Bertie wrote on Oct 5^th, 2020 at 8:06pm:

Automatic is for ladies and learners.

I too love manuals.
I have had a few myself.
But autos are easier, and as my wife cannot drive a manual, we must have an auto.

Additionally.
Driving in the moving car park known as Sydney, which I occasionally have to do.
Manuals are a real pain.

Yep, give me a manual for a nice country drive or fang
But for general motoring, give me an auto.

Valkie wrote on Oct 6^th, 2020 at 6:39am:

Bertie wrote on Oct 5th, 2020 at 8:06pm: Automatic is for ladies and learners. I too love manuals. I have had a few myself. But autos are easier, and as my wife cannot drive a manual, we must have an auto. Additionally. Driving in the moving car park known as Sydney, which I occasionally have to do. Manuals are a real pain. Yep, give me a manual for a nice country drive or fang But for general motoring, give me an auto.

Absolutely.
No manual is 'better' than even a 5 speed auto.
Now 6 speed autos are about the minimum.
Autos are way ahead. that is why 90+% of sales are autos

I think rubbish trucks are autos

Valkie wrote on Oct 6^th, 2020 at 6:36am:

Sprintcyclist wrote on Oct 5th, 2020 at 12:57pm: Valkie - I have also read to keep the 'revs' up on an Auto when it is doing heavy work. ie, when going up a hill or towing something heavy, Lock the auto down into to a lower gear to keep the revs up. eg - We went up to Mt Tamborine yesterday. On the way up I locked the 5 speed auto into 3rd, sometimes 2nd. Keeping the revs above 2500 rpm. It is not changing up and down all the time and is spinning happily. Coming down, my wife locked it into 2nd the whole way. She hardly had to brake, it revs up to 4000 or thereabouts. A few years ago we went up to Mt Bunya. It was very steep. I locked it into 2nd gear on the way up and kept the revs above 3000 rpm. It never got bogged down. Your thoughts on that? The revs are more about reducing the stress on the engine than the tranny. Higher revs mean less stress on the engine(within limits) as it isnt working as hard. But trannys are different. The torque converter is a very simple fluid drive. The oil is directed through a tortuous path to drive the tranny. The harder the oil is worked, the hotter it gets. The hotter it gets, the more the oil loses its viscosity. which means it has to work harder......etc etc. Many new trannys have a lock that locks the torque converter at speed, to reduce the heat build up and slippage. The worst thing that trannys hate is continually varying speed. Unlike engine coolant (which boils and make lots of visible steam etc) Autos boil and have little external visible indicators. You can smell them when they get too hot (sweet smell) By then the damage is done and the oil should be changed. But when the tranny dies, it is a slow and very expensive problem. There are symptoms, rarely identified by drivers . The smell is first Then leaks as the seals die Tranny does strange things, changing early or late, slipping between gears etc. Then there are whines, noises and finally catastrophic failure.

Thanks Valkie, it is good to chat with someone who chats.

Valkie - for a normal Auto, what causes the torque converter to lockup ?

Is it revs or speed or does it use various sensors to decide?

Sprintcyclist wrote on Oct 6^th, 2020 at 7:52pm:

Valkie - for a normal Auto, what causes the torque converter to lockup ? Is it revs or speed or does it use various sensors to decide?

You are now getting above my experience in this area.
The vehicles I worked on and engineered were heavy duty mining equipment, they had no lock up option as they rarely reached 30k/hr, let alone a sustained speed.

I have however owned several autos.
The earlier ones had no lock up option (early holdens and fords)
But my later vehicles all have a drive lock up to conserve fuel and to reduce heat from slippage.

How they work?
Not my field, but as you say it would have something to do with sensors and conditions.

A torque converter is like two opposing turbines facing each other (very rough description)
one turbine is anchored to the engine, the other, the transmission.
The engine spinning directs the oil from one at the other and makes it spin, the higher the revs, the more force applied.
This also creates heat as the oil is forced through this torturous path and is under load.
The inner workings of an automatic transmission comprises of valves and sensors which read load and speed and adjust accordingly.
This is a dark science and one, even with my fluid dynamic engineering qualification, I do not fully understand, nor want to.
All the lock up does is engage a clutch type mechanism that locks the torque converter, it has little to do with the transmission pers see, but is instrumental in reducing slippage.

But if you want to really get into some fun stuff, try having a look at CVT transmissions.
A brilliant idea and in most cases well used in many cars today.
But prone to failure if taken beyond their design parameters.
These are often touted as "sealed for life" with the oil.
But this is mainly because people would freak at the cost of the oil, its special oil and very expensive.

If you own one of these gearboxes, they will happily perform well for many years and miles.
But dont believe the "sealed for life" crap.
I had an X trail with this gearbox and towed a 1.5 ton boat everywhere. Did nearly 300000k on it.
I changed the oil in the gearbox every year and had no issues.
Others have failed because they didnt change the oil, Nissan got a poor rep for X trail gearbox failures for a while.

Fun stuff eh?

Bertie wrote on Oct 5^th, 2020 at 8:06pm:

Automatic is for ladies and learners.

Do you still have someone walking ahead of you with a red flag as well?   ;D

Valkie wrote on Oct 7^th, 2020 at 7:32am:

Sprintcyclist wrote on Oct 6th, 2020 at 7:52pm: Valkie - for a normal Auto, what causes the torque converter to lockup ? Is it revs or speed or does it use various sensors to decide? You are now getting above my experience in this area. The vehicles I worked on and engineered were heavy duty mining equipment, they had no lock up option as they rarely reached 30k/hr, let alone a sustained speed. I have however owned several autos. The earlier ones had no lock up option (early holdens and fords) But my later vehicles all have a drive lock up to conserve fuel and to reduce heat from slippage. How they work? Not my field, but as you say it would have something to do with sensors and conditions. A torque converter is like two opposing turbines facing each other (very rough description) one turbine is anchored to the engine, the other, the transmission. The engine spinning directs the oil from one at the other and makes it spin, the higher the revs, the more force applied. This also creates heat as the oil is forced through this torturous path and is under load. The inner workings of an automatic transmission comprises of valves and sensors which read load and speed and adjust accordingly. This is a dark science and one, even with my fluid dynamic engineering qualification, I do not fully understand, nor want to. All the lock up does is engage a clutch type mechanism that locks the torque converter, it has little to do with the transmission pers see, but is instrumental in reducing slippage. But if you want to really get into some fun stuff, try having a look at CVT transmissions. A brilliant idea and in most cases well used in many cars today. But prone to failure if taken beyond their design parameters. These are often touted as "sealed for life" with the oil. But this is mainly because people would freak at the cost of the oil, its special oil and very expensive. If you own one of these gearboxes, they will happily perform well for many years and miles. But dont believe the "sealed for life" crap. I had an X trail with this gearbox and towed a 1.5 ton boat everywhere. Did nearly 300000k on it. I changed the oil in the gearbox every year and had no issues. Others have failed because they didnt change the oil, Nissan got a poor rep for X trail gearbox failures for a while. Fun stuff eh?

Gosh I love an honest answer.
Thanks muchly.



' ............  But dont believe the "sealed for life" crap.
I had an X trail with this gearbox and towed a 1.5 ton boat everywhere. Did nearly 300000k on it.
I changed the oil in the gearbox every year and had no issues. ............. '

I agree with that 100%

A quick question directed at the moderators/administrators of the forum.

I posted about "the death of the manual transmission" the other day.

That post has since been moved to "technically speaking".

Yet this post remains in "chat".

My question?

Why?

I need an automatic transmission to keep my hands free.

Mix_Master wrote on Oct 11^th, 2020 at 8:10am:

A quick question directed at the moderators/administrators of the forum. I posted about "the death of the manual transmission" the other day. That post has since been moved to "technically speaking". Yet this post remains in "chat". My question? Why?

Didn't see the thread until today.

Jake Winker Frogen wrote on Oct 11^th, 2020 at 4:31pm:

I need an automatic transmission to keep my hands free.

I guess driving an auto makes opening another beer much safer ?