Quote:

Has a national obsession hijacked centenary commemorations of the Great War?

https://newsroom.unsw.edu.au/news/social-affairs/busting-anzac-myth

Maybe if you voiced your opinion rather than just a link, your threads would attract more comments

Or we can discuss the merits of an academic expert instead of using uneducated assumptions?

Spatchcock wrote on Apr 29^th, 2019 at 1:20pm:

Or we can discuss the merits of an academic expert instead of using uneducated assumptions?

Sure.  We could.  But it doesn't seem to be happening at the moment

Then participate?

Okay I will start:

The literature and education and mood of the Australian public is decidedly against America, the military and military culture. This is represented in classrooms, the media and the ongoing social discourse regarding the merits and involvement of the military and the influence of America on the Australian political landscape.

These do not necessarily reflect my views, these reflect the views of the electorate and future generations who have yet to obtain the right the vote.

There is consistent education and commentary that is negative towards the military, Australian foreign policy and the place of America in the Australian political landscape. There is no counter narrative.

It can be said that the military is a society within a society, much like insular ethnic communities, and military values do not represent the Australian population in the slightest. This can be deduced from surveys regarding support for military operations and student participation in the anti war, anti military, anti climate denial, pro refugee and anti big business activist streams, where they are overly represented and contrary arguments and statements are socially unacceptable.

Australia is changing.

Spatchcock wrote on Apr 29^th, 2019 at 1:33pm:

Then participate? Okay I will start: The literature and education and mood of the Australian public is decidedly against America, the military and military culture. This is represented in classrooms, the media and the ongoing social discourse regarding the merits and involvement of the military and the influence of America on the Australian political landscape. These do not necessarily reflect my views, these reflect the views of the electorate and future generations who have yet to obtain the right the vote. There is consistent education and commentary that is negative towards the military, Australian foreign policy and the place of America in the Australian political landscape. There is no counter narrative. It can be said that the military is a society within a society, much like insular ethnic communities, and military values do not represent the Australian population in the slightest. This can be deduced from surveys regarding support for military operations and student participation in the anti war, anti military, anti climate denial, pro refugee and anti big business activist streams, where they are overly represented and contrary arguments and statements are socially unacceptable. Australia is changing.

What Aussies say, what they mean and what they actually do ----- differ

There's an entire culture (and it's not restricted to the younger generations) which attempts to model itself on younger generation Americans.  And nowhere is this seen more starkly than on large US forums (although they're international) like the chans (predominantly 4chan and 8chan) where Aussies clearly attempt to ape, in the main, Americans

As to not wanting to become involved in USrael wars for profit, that's not anti-war or anti-American (although there's very much an anti jew, anti Zionist sentiment) it's a case of Aussies regarding war as something not to be entered into lightly and certainly not for the gratification of USrael slugs

anti-government, anti-military sentiments are directly as result of the wars for profit into which Aussie troops have been thrown by a succession of traitor politicians and prime ministers who of course, are selected for their willingness to bend over for USrael

If an invasion of Australia occurred and when help from UK and US fails to eventuate, then if the Oz govt. issues Aussies with weapons, I think we'd find Aussies rushing to the invasion site intent on repelling the invaders

I have found this has occurred mainstream:

America intentionally lied about WMD to destabilise the middle east for hegemony.

Big companies that make weapons profit, and companies like Halliburton that have links to presidents and vice presidents.

America originally funded Al Qaeda.

America is best friends with Saudi Arabia and Saudi Arabia trained and funded ISIS.

All the statements about Iran and Syria and North Korea is American lies for hegemony. It is all propaganda. Therefore the counter narrative of Israel being this and that and America being what and how seems plausible.

Anything coming out of America is rejected offhand.

The mainstream media is in cahoots with the CIA.

and that is exactly what current and future generations are saying. And they are mobilising and protesting.

They embrace American culture if that means beer and music and parties. Anything else American is rejected outright.

And that is Australia 2019 age range 15-45 for the majority.

Great post



Quote:

They embrace American culture if that means beer and music and parties. Anything else American is rejected outright

.

Americans still seem kewl to many Aussies, many well into middle age.  Reddit Australia for example -- sickening example of Aussies desperately trying for American patterns of speech and for a faux, American-style cynicism.  I was chucked out of Reddit Australia half a dozen times for pointing out how stupid Aussies sound when they try to impress Americans.  They got offended. They didn't realise how obvious and try-hard they are.  It's depressing, the still-large cultural cringe in Oz


The try-hard antics are equally see-through for Aussies who browse & post the Aussie threads in 4chan, where by accident, Aussies have become a meme.  They invariably have Oz specific pics as their OP -- usually some rough-nut, brown-baked Aussie stereotype in a cork-wreathed hat with the obligatory kangaroo to the side

what created the Aussie meme is Aussies' overuse of fc*k and c*nt.  For some reason, it endears Aussie posters to Americans in particular and they (Americans) have added Aussie vocabulary to their own as a badge of admiration and friendship for supposedly 'irreverent' 'tough' 'no chit' Aussies down here underneath the real-world

Aussie red-necks don't differ much from world-wide red-necks insofar as partays involve chunder-inducing amounts of grog and the gang-rape or gang-bashings.  As to more genteel partying, Aussies'Yanks consume grog, drugs and exhibit idiotic behaviours generally


So Americans fantasise about Straya being filled with foul mouthed but funny guys and women who're up for it, and Aussies fantasise about the America they see on Netflix, tv, videos.  They both sling off at brown people and bemoan immigration.  Online, they fester with misogyny and seem unable to differentiate between natural breasts and silicone bags.  And they're being prepped to hate older generations

That is in a cohesive mutually appreciated internet society.

I don't believe that is reflective of the wider community.

Spatchcock wrote on Apr 29^th, 2019 at 2:21pm:

That is in a cohesive mutually appreciated internet society. I don't believe that is reflective of the wider community.

You could be right

Test it by offering Aussies twelve months in the US

They are not balanced. They are un-American.

They will say:

Healthcare
Gun crime
Lower wages
Taxes

Not, "ooooh what an interesting experience that would be".

They are raised and educated like this.

Spatchcock wrote on Apr 29^th, 2019 at 2:30pm:

They are not balanced. They are un-American. They will say: Healthcare Gun crime Lower wages Taxes Not, "ooooh what an interesting experience that would be". They are raised and educated like this.

or

they say, Disneyland, Las Vegas, California, movies stars, glamour, massive servings of American style foods, road trips, scenery, proximity to Canada …. and here we are, stuck on this hot rock surrounded by sea and potential invaders

Aussies are lonely

they always have been

I haven't ever seen that. Ever. From anyone. Except me. I am the only person I've ever observed with these attitudes.

Everyone else is unenthralled by America or educated to be anti Anerican.

Spatchcock wrote on Apr 29^th, 2019 at 2:44pm:

I haven't ever seen that. Ever. From anyone. Except me. I am the only person I've ever observed with these attitudes. Everyone else is unenthralled by America or educated to be anti Anerican.

Nothing unusual about our different observations

It wasn't until Gulf War and 9/11, from memory (which roughly coincided with widespread internet useage in Oz) that the US began its slide into notoriety.  Prior to that, the US was admired, envied and a place of fantasy, dreams & hope for most.  You still find those attitudes amongst many non-Westerners who still consider the US to be the place where dreams can become true

most Aussies' beliefs about the US (and we could include many Europeans) were based in US movies and tv.  The Brady Bunch was a massive hit with kids who believed most/all Americans lived the Brady lifestyle -- big modern house, perfect mom and pop, happy happy, always sunny, prosperous.  The Brits in particular were/are particularly taken with Home and Away and similar shows and they must have been responsible for tens of thousands of Brits desperately trying to find that lifestyle by emmigrating to Oz .. beach at the end of the street, barbques and dozen of friends every night, buckets of fresh fruit falling off trees, always sunny, etc.)

America dominated tv and films and from those we believed America to be a bastion of justice and integrity.  After the gloss peeled off the US, the world has never recovered.  'Who do we look up to now?'. Millions of dreams died.  It was the same for Americans

As with most painful break-ups, the world set about ripping apart the United States' reputation.  Love had turned to hate.  Alternative news sites, which had previously only been available in books and magazines such as New Dawn, sprang up online.  People's eyes had opened and the US was exposed and excoriated. We know now about US lies, it's bullying, its pot-holed roads, crumbling infrastructure, poverty, etc. We learned how our national leaders plotted with USrael to engineer wars for profit and to poison our bodies and minds

The Great Satan.  But the love for the US dies hard.  And we still harbour many of those old fantasies and beliefs.  I wouldn't like to guess how many Aussies still believe that if anyone lays a finger on Australia, Uncle Sam and the cavalry will fly, sail and swim to our rescue

Australia still regards itself as the little underdog in many ways.  And the fact Tony Abbott almost begged Obama to allow Australia to send troops to fight, kill and die in any dispute going, disgusted many of us but most likely swelled others with pride

As to busting the ANZAC myth, who wants to do that?  The kids who undertake the trek to Turkey every year in order to stand at Gallipoli?  The tens of thousands who get up early to attend dawn services and later to line the streets, dabbing their eyes with tissues?

Australia makes a big deal of ANZAC because Australia obviously needs ANZAC.  It's said that the ANZACs moulded Australia and put Australia and Australians on the map in the eyes of Australians

Every nation and culture has its myths and legends.  They exist for a reason and people are reluctant to let them go.  The NWO will have a never-ending fight on its hands if it attempts to take them away.  There are third and fourth generation migrant decendants in Oz who rupture their lungs as they scream for their homeland's team and fly their homeland's flag at sporting events.  Then a few days later, they're back to being Aussies.  But deep down, their homeland and all it means to them still lives, even if they've never left Australia

So surely Aussies can keep ANZAC

Midnight Oil was an extremely successful Australian band.

They had songs like US Forces.

I would therefore assume that in the 80s, this was an acceptable and common political belief, one that resonates with the themes of that song.

How many Anzacs were born in Australia? I suggest 90% of 'Anzacs' were British born.

That should prick the Anzac bubble.

Laugh till you cry wrote on Apr 29^th, 2019 at 3:56pm:

How many Anzacs were born in Australia? I suggest 90% of 'Anzacs' were British born.

I believe the proportion was approximately 50%, LTYC.

Australia had a population of approximately of ~4.9 million people, of whom 22.6 per cent were born overseas in 1901.

420,000 Australians enlisted in the AIF during the First World War.

Of those, approximately 50% were born overseas, particularly but not exclusively the British isles.


Quote:

That should prick the Anzac bubble.

Not so much as you appear to believe, LTYC.

Are politics and the mainstream media out of touch with the population?

From the following, make your conclusions.

Mass numbers of high school students are protesting climate inaction and adani

Liberal party supports adani and industry
Labor supports adani
Media support police and ASIO

Police and ASIO say stop and arrest environmental protesters. Potentially under anti terror legislation.

So are politicians, the media, police, ASIO et al massively out of touch with the electorate?

Are we experiencing significant political instability?

My answer is yes.

Repeat this experiment with the anti Iraq war protests. Same answer.

The government is creating political opposition to the established order. They are pushing back. They feel their voices are unheard.

Brian Ross wrote on Apr 29^th, 2019 at 4:15pm:

Laugh till you cry wrote on Apr 29th, 2019 at 3:56pm: How many Anzacs were born in Australia? I suggest 90% of 'Anzacs' were British born. I believe the proportion was approximately 50%, LTYC. Australia had a population of approximately of ~4.9 million people, of whom 22.6 per cent were born overseas in 1901. 420,000 Australians enlisted in the AIF during the First World War. Of those, approximately 50% were born overseas, particularly but not exclusively the British isles. Quote: That should prick the Anzac bubble. Not so much as you appear to believe, LTYC.

Most of those UK-born 'Anzac' recruits were probably not even Australian citizens.

Of those who were Australian-born, their parents may have been UK citizens thus rendering those 'Australians' to be poms.

Laugh till you cry wrote on Apr 29^th, 2019 at 4:23pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Apr 29th, 2019 at 4:15pm: Laugh till you cry wrote on Apr 29th, 2019 at 3:56pm: How many Anzacs were born in Australia? I suggest 90% of 'Anzacs' were British born. I believe the proportion was approximately 50%, LTYC. Australia had a population of approximately of ~4.9 million people, of whom 22.6 per cent were born overseas in 1901. 420,000 Australians enlisted in the AIF during the First World War. Of those, approximately 50% were born overseas, particularly but not exclusively the British isles. Quote: That should prick the Anzac bubble. Not so much as you appear to believe, LTYC. Most of those UK-born 'Anzac' recruits were probably not even Australian citizens. Of those who were Australian-born, their parents may have been UK citizens thus rendering those 'Australians' to be poms.

Quote:

Until the passing in Australia of the Nationality Act 1920, Australia's nationality law, like that of other Commonwealth countries, was governed by the English common law concept of a British subject. ... The British Nationality and Status of Aliens Act 1914 codified the common law rules.

[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_nationality_law]Source[/url]

So, until 1920, everybody in Australia was British subjects.  However it was not until 1948 that they become officially Australian citizens.  So your argument is really rather nonsensical.   ::)

Big rooster has quoted his statistics and therefore is right.

However he has made no inference regarding them and is hoping you dont understand them.

In other words he is wrong again.

If China decided tomorrow that instead of forking out billions on our natural resources that it would just land it's massive army and take them, then without our  US alliance we would be farked. People need to understand that. We are pretty much a defenceless nation and way outnumbered. Be anti- American all you like but that would change in a second if a Chinese soldier kicked your door down. Our high standard of living and comfort has blinded us to the true realities of what's going on in the world and our true place in it.

If you want to really get down and dirty about WW1 right through to Vietnam then we should really talk about how our returned servicemen were treated. In fact they weren't. Many ended up in mental institutions, many destitute on the street, many died years later because their lungs were damaged by gas. They smoked and drunk themselves to death. I grew up in a suburb with loads of Vietnam veterans and many were dumped into government housing with very little support to stew on their troubles. War destroys people and destroyed families years after right through the generations. But alas, our leaders need something to bring us together because they are frightened at how divided we are.

Mr Hammer wrote on Apr 29^th, 2019 at 6:05pm:

If you want to really get down and dirty about WW1 right through to Vietnam then we should really talk about how our returned servicemen were treated. In fact they weren't. Many ended up in mental institutions, many destitute on the street, many died years later because their lungs were damaged by gas. They smoked and drunk themselves to death. Many came back and their jobs was given up to people who didn't even fight. I grew up in a suburb with loads of Vietnam veterans and many were dumped into government housing with very little support to stew on their troubles. War destroys people and destroyed families years after right through the generations. But alas, our leaders need something to bring us together because they are frightened at how divided we are.

Mr Hammer wrote on Apr 29^th, 2019 at 6:05pm:

If you want to really get down and dirty about WW1 right through to Vietnam then we should really talk about how our returned servicemen were treated. In fact they weren't. Many ended up in mental institutions, many destitute on the street, many died years later because their lungs were damaged by gas. They smoked and drunk themselves to death. I grew up in a suburb with loads of Vietnam veterans and many were dumped into government housing with very little support to stew on their troubles. War destroys people and destroyed families years after right through the generations. But alas, our leaders need something to bring us together because they are frightened at how divided we are.

And not supporting another generation of ruined lives is unpatriotic.

Mr Hammer wrote on Apr 29^th, 2019 at 5:54pm:

If China decided tomorrow that instead of forking out billions on our natural resources that it would just land it's massive army and take them, then without our  US alliance we would be farked. People need to understand that. We are pretty much a defenceless nation and way outnumbered. Be anti- American all you like but that would change in a second if a Chinese soldier kicked your door down. Our high standard of living and comfort has blinded us to the true realities of what's going on in the world and our true place in it.

IYO, Hammer.  That does not necessarily equate to reality.   We have an alliance with the US.  However, whereas we have made it the keystone of our defence and foreign policies, to the US we were merely just another block in their containment wall against the fUSSR.   Our alliance was to placate us, against the possibility of a resurgent Imperial, militarist Japan.  Whereas we believe it guaranteed that the US would come to our aid, in reality, clause III of the alliance only requires a conference if any of our or their forces (or NZ's) were threatened in the Pacific region.

As to whether or not, the US would honour what they have agreed to, is another matter.   Howard, seizing on the opportunity that September 11 offered, convened a defence conference with the US in Washington, despite neither New York or Washington being on the Pacific coast of the US.   Bush Junior was delighted to have Canberra sign up to his crusade against al Q'aeda (and later Saddam Hussein).

When we have asked for American aid when we have felt threatened by other nations - namely Indonesia - in 1960, 1965, 1975 and in 1999, the US has been reluctant to honor what we believe was it's commitment was.   In 1960, it favoured Indonesia, because of the need for Polaris quipped submarines to transit Indonesia waters from Guam to the Indian Ocean to allow them to attack the fUSSR.  In 1965, it was becoming concerned with affairs in Vietnam and decided that as the UK was involved under the Five Powers Defence Agreement it was not required to act against Indonesia.   In 1975, it knew that Indonesia was no threat to Australia and believed Suharto's word that it was only going to invade East Timor.   In 1999, affairs in Europe distracted it.  So, on the four occasions we have felt the need for American support, in each case, Washington has decided otherwise.

Trump's attitude towards Beijing is reassuring to Canberra, even if Beijing is our biggest customer for our agriculture and mining.   Trump appears unwilling to bow to China's ascendancy to become the most powerful economy in the world.  China has no plans to attack Australia.  Why should it, as long as Australia is willing to sell it what it wants?  Why waste the manpower and the resources?  It would require a considerable retraining of a large part of the PLA and considerable re-equipping of the PLAN and PLAAF.   

Australia is a long, long, way from China.   China is more concerned with events in it's immediate neighbourhood and always has been.  Australia is a difficult nation to attack.  Time and distance play a significant part in our defence. Our neighbours are the outer rim of our defences.   As long as Indonesia remains hostile to China, the less like the Chinese are to gain bases closer to Australia from which they could mount an attack or an invasion.   If they did, they would still need to cross the air-sea gap.  A gap which we presently control and we would be able to attack their attacking force in and interdict their logistics in.  They then are faced with the invidious choice of where to attack?  The Top End or the SE Corner.   The Top End is closer but is still remote from where the majority of the population lives and where most of our industries reside and where our politicians are.   The SE Corner is where all those things are but you need to sail 'round the continent to reach it, thereby exposing your forces to greater attack and interdiction from naval and air forces.

The ADF has trained in Australia it's entire existence.  It knows how to live here, the PLA does not.   It knows how to use the resources here, the PLA does not.  The PLA would require approximately three to four times the forces the ADF presently has at it's command to make an adequate bridgehead.   That requires a lot of shipping and a large number of escort craft to ferry to where ever they are planning to attack.  Once ashore, it and it's logistics would be again vulnerable to the ADF which would attack and interdict it's supply train.   Like the Russians in the old joke, we can simply wait until the Chinese are tired out and lack the resources and then we could attack them.

We are not assured of a victory but we would have a good chance, even without direct US involvement.   If the US did become involved, then the Chinese would have no chance at all.

Spatchcock wrote on Apr 29^th, 2019 at 6:14pm:

Mr Hammer wrote on Apr 29th, 2019 at 6:05pm: If you want to really get down and dirty about WW1 right through to Vietnam then we should really talk about how our returned servicemen were treated. In fact they weren't. Many ended up in mental institutions, many destitute on the street, many died years later because their lungs were damaged by gas. They smoked and drunk themselves to death. I grew up in a suburb with loads of Vietnam veterans and many were dumped into government housing with very little support to stew on their troubles. War destroys people and destroyed families years after right through the generations. But alas, our leaders need something to bring us together because they are frightened at how divided we are. And not supporting another generation of ruined lives is unpatriotic.

You mean like our males. Feminism boosted females and destroyed males.

Mr Hammer wrote on Apr 29^th, 2019 at 6:05pm:

If you want to really get down and dirty about WW1 right through to Vietnam then we should really talk about how our returned servicemen were treated. In fact they weren't. Many ended up in mental institutions, many destitute on the street, many died years later because their lungs were damaged by gas. They smoked and drunk themselves to death. I grew up in a suburb with loads of Vietnam veterans and many were dumped into government housing with very little support to stew on their troubles. War destroys people and destroyed families years after right through the generations. But alas, our leaders need something to bring us together because they are frightened at how divided we are.

Oh, dear, another rewriting of history, according to Hammer?

Vietnam Veterans were treated very differently to WWI and WWII and Korean War veterans.   They received considerable help upon their return.  The Repatriation Dept. was set up to handle their immediate and ongoing health problems.  The Solder-Settler schemes were created to settle them on the land in their own farms and help them to learn to become farmers (despite the majority having come from within the cities).   Housing was provided by a grateful nation and society.   The overwhelming majority resettled into Australian life perfectly OK.  Soldier-Settlers were a problem, primarily because the land they were settled on was marginal and because of the inexperience of the settlers.   However, there were some successes even there.

The Vietnam Veterans were however treated differently.  The war was not popular  because of the use of conscripts to fight it.  The veterans were basically demobilised overnight after their return from combat, whereas in previous wars they waited several months before returning home.  This resulted in small amount of time to readjust to peacetime living.   Whereas in WWI and WWII demobilisation included training in new skills and careers.  The RSL did not welcome them amongst their ranks.  Society as a whole turned their backs on them.  They did not have a welcome home march through the cities of Australia.  This left a lot of disgruntled diggers.  Many in turn become involved in crime, drugs and other bad things in reaction but the rest were just left to their down devices.   The Repat department contested a lot of their claims for compensation, which had not occurred to previous generations.  Overall, they had a bad deal of it.

They finally got a welcome home parade in 1987.  I remember it well, attending the one in Sydney on the sidelines.  A lot of satisfied diggers marched, believing they were once more accepted by society.   However, many still had their demons, their problems with drugs and drink and so on.  They didn't go away.

The experience of the Vietnam Veterans taught Australian society a valuable, if somewhat costly lesson.  You don't blame the diggers for doing their job because of the bad decisions of politicians.  Today, diggers are honoured for their service, as they should be.  They march proudly on ANZAC day and wear their medals with pride.   The Repat Department are still bastards though.  :(

Brian Ross wrote on Apr 29^th, 2019 at 6:26pm:

Mr Hammer wrote on Apr 29th, 2019 at 5:54pm: If China decided tomorrow that instead of forking out billions on our natural resources that it would just land it's massive army and take them, then without our  US alliance we would be farked. People need to understand that. We are pretty much a defenceless nation and way outnumbered. Be anti- American all you like but that would change in a second if a Chinese soldier kicked your door down. Our high standard of living and comfort has blinded us to the true realities of what's going on in the world and our true place in it. IYO, Hammer.  That does not necessarily equate to reality.   We have an alliance with the US.  However, whereas we have made it the keystone of our defence and foreign policies, to the US we were merely just another block in their containment wall against the fUSSR.   Our alliance was to placate us, against the possibility of a resurgent Imperial, militarist Japan.  Whereas we believe it guaranteed that the US would come to our aid, in reality, clause III of the alliance only requires a conference if any of our or their forces (or NZ's) were threatened in the Pacific region. As to whether or not, the US would honour what they have agreed to, is another matter.   Howard, seizing on the opportunity that September 11 offered, convened a defence conference with the US in Washington, despite neither New York or Washington being on the Pacific coast of the US.   Bush Junior was delighted to have Canberra sign up to his crusade against al Q'aeda (and later Saddam Hussein). When we have asked for American aid when we have felt threatened by other nations - namely Indonesia - in 1960, 1965, 1975 and in 1999, the US has been reluctant to honor what we believe was it's commitment was.   In 1960, it favoured Indonesia, because of the need for Polaris quipped submarines to transit Indonesia waters from Guam to the Indian Ocean to allow them to attack the fUSSR.  In 1965, it was becoming concerned with affairs in Vietnam and decided that as the UK was involved under the Five Powers Defence Agreement it was not required to act against Indonesia.   In 1975, it knew that Indonesia was no threat to Australia and believed Suharto's word that it was only going to invade East Timor.   In 1999, affairs in Europe distracted it.  So, on the four occasions we have felt the need for American support, in each case, Washington has decided otherwise. Trump's attitude towards Beijing is reassuring to Canberra, even if Beijing is our biggest customer for our agriculture and mining.   Trump appears unwilling to bow to China's ascendancy to become the most powerful economy in the world.  China has no plans to attack Australia.  Why should it, as long as Australia is willing to sell it what it wants?  Why waste the manpower and the resources?  It would require a considerable retraining of a large part of the PLA and considerable re-equipping of the PLAN and PLAAF.    Australia is a long, long, way from China.   China is more concerned with events in it's immediate neighbourhood and always has been.  Australia is a difficult nation to attack.  Time and distance play a significant part in our defence. Our neighbours are the outer rim of our defences.   As long as Indonesia remains hostile to China, the less like the Chinese are to gain bases closer to Australia from which they could mount an attack or an invasion.   If they did, they would still need to cross the air-sea gap.  A gap which we presently control and we would be able to attack their attacking force in and interdict their logistics in.  They then are faced with the invidious choice of where to attack?  The Top End or the SE Corner.   The Top End is closer but is still remote from where the majority of the population lives and where most of our industries reside and where our politicians are.   The SE Corner is where all those things are but you need to sail 'round the continent to reach it, thereby exposing your forces to greater attack and interdiction from naval and air forces. The ADF has trained in Australia it's entire existence.  It knows how to live here, the PLA does not.   It knows how to use the resources here, the PLA does not.  The PLA would require approximately three to four times the forces the ADF presently has at it's command to make an adequate bridgehead.   That requires a lot of shipping and a large number of escort craft to ferry to where ever they are planning to attack.  Once ashore, it and it's logistics would be again vulnerable to the ADF which would attack and interdict it's supply train.   Like the Russians in the old joke, we can simply wait until the Chinese are tired out and lack the resources and then we could attack them. We are not assured of a victory but we would have a good chance, even without direct US involvement.   If the US did become involved, then the Chinese would have no chance at all.

Good chance? We'd get obliterated Brian. China is dredging up the bottom and making sand islands with bases and them. The tyranny of distance is shrinking by the day. I'll tell you why China would love Australia- space. Lebensraum. People in China are living like caged chickens on top of each other. If the US had a civil war we'd be defenceless and other countries would start making their move. The stability of the US is our stability. It's just a fact.

Double post.  Had problems with browser.

Mr Hammer wrote on Apr 29^th, 2019 at 6:41pm:

[quote Good chance? We'd get obliterated Brian. China is dredging up the bottom and making sand islands with bases and them. The tyranny of distance is shrinking by the day. I'll tell you why China would love Australia- space. Lebensraum. People in China are living like caged chickens on top of each other. If the US had a civil war we'd be defenceless and other countries would start making their move. The stability of the US is our stability. It's just a fact.

You really do live in a different reality, don't you, Hammer?

China would not "obliterate" us.  Why would they bother?  They would need us as slaves, now wouldn't they?

In reality, China lacks the need to attack Australia.   Lebensraum?  Australia lacks the soils to support a large population.  Our soils are the oldest on the planet and lack the nutrients to sustain massive cropping.  China is well aware of this fact, Hammer.   China is largely empty, despite your belief otherwise.  Most of it's population is on the coast and inland from there.  There is plenty of room further west, in Xinjiang and Tibet.   Why undertake a risky invasion when you already control large areas that are not being used?   Wars occur because of a need for a political outcome which cannot be achieved peacefully.  As Clausewitz put it, "War is but politics by a different means."   Sane politicians don't wage war unnecessarily.   China has no necessity to wage war on Australia.  None at all.  It also lacks the means.   It's navy is not equipped or trained for long range operations.   To build an island takes years and years and years, Hammer, it does not happen overnight.   You don't think we'd notice them building islands just to the north of our continent?   ::)

You really need to stop with your Yellow Peril stories, Hammer.  Your Sinophobia is showing.   ::) ::)

I can't believe you are arguing with me about this. My fathers uncle blew his head off in a oven about 20 years after coming home from a Japanese POW camp. My mates uncle shot himself in the head. My pop was a smoker and bad drinker because he was in New Guinea. He died early.  My mates father was a bad drinker and smoker because of his service. They chopped off both of his legs before he died. Across the road when I lived in Blacktown was a Vietnam veteran who had a steel plate in his head from a booby trap. Every Saturday morning the whole street erupted from his domestic abuse. My father went around to his house one time and all the fibro walls were smashed in. His two kids were traumatised. The ones who witnessed combat were all damaged in some way. And it was years after Vietnam when they finally started diagnosing combat trauma. They weren't treated properly Brian. You know that.

Brian Ross wrote on Apr 29^th, 2019 at 7:43pm:

Mr Hammer wrote on Apr 29th, 2019 at 6:41pm: [quote Good chance? We'd get obliterated Brian. China is dredging up the bottom and making sand islands with bases and them. The tyranny of distance is shrinking by the day. I'll tell you why China would love Australia- space. Lebensraum. People in China are living like caged chickens on top of each other. If the US had a civil war we'd be defenceless and other countries would start making their move. The stability of the US is our stability. It's just a fact. You really do live in a different reality, don't you, Hammer? China would not "obliterate" us.  Why would they bother?  They would need us as slaves, now wouldn't they? In reality, China lacks the need to attack Australia.   Lebensraum?  Australia lacks the soils to support a large population.  Our soils are the oldest on the planet and lack the nutrients to sustain massive cropping.  China is well aware of this fact, Hammer.   China is largely empty, despite your belief otherwise.  Most of it's population is on the coast and inland from there.  There is plenty of room further west, in Xinjiang and Tibet.   Why undertake a risky invasion when you already control large areas that are not being used?   Wars occur because of a need for a political outcome which cannot be achieved peacefully.  As Clausewitz put it, "War is but politics by a different means."   Sane politicians don't wage war unnecessarily.   China has no necessity to wage war on Australia.  None at all.  It also lacks the means.   It's navy is not equipped or trained for long range operations.   To build an island takes years and years and years, Hammer, it does not happen overnight.   You don't think we'd notice them building islands just to the north of our continent?   ::) You really need to stop with your Yellow Peril stories, Hammer.  Your Sinophobia is showing.   ::) ::)

China is developing close relationships throughout the Pacific. Fiji loves China. China is making moves Brian. PNG is another one. You are in denial.

Australia has neglected her friends whilst being important and saying in the media she "pinches above her weight and kicks you in the balls".

Brian Ross wrote on Apr 29^th, 2019 at 5:30pm:

So, until 1920, everybody in Australia was British subjects.  However it was not until 1948 that they become officially Australian citizens.  So your argument is really rather nonsensical.

You perform better when you are not sober Brian.

So the expression Anzac was bogus because the military personnel from Australia were British subjects?

The toadys in 'Australian' government on both sides still kneel in the presence of UK politicians and royalty. "The idea that there was such a thing as an Australian nationality as distinct from a British one was considered by the High Court of Australia in 1906 to be a "novel idea" to which it was "not disposed to give any countenance".

From Brian Ross's source.


Quote:

... The idea that there was such a thing as an Australian nationality as distinct from a British one was considered by the High Court of Australia in 1906 to be a "novel idea" to which it was "not disposed to give any countenance". ... ... 1984: The Australian Citizenship (Amendment) Act 1984 became effective on 22 November 1984 and made significant changes, including that Australian law would no longer regard Australians as "British subjects". British subjects in Australia who were not Australian citizens became permanent residents.[7] Australian passports are only to be issued to Australian citizens. ...

Laugh till you cry wrote on Apr 29^th, 2019 at 9:44pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Apr 29th, 2019 at 5:30pm: So, until 1920, everybody in Australia was British subjects.  However it was not until 1948 that they become officially Australian citizens.  So your argument is really rather nonsensical. You perform better when you are not sober Brian. So the expression Anzac was bogus because the military personnel from Australia were British subjects?

Nope.  They came from Australia and New Zealand.   They were enlisted in the Australian and New Zealand Armies, not the British Army.   We were an independent, self-governing dominion.   We were still working our way though many issues, citizenship was just one of them.   We got it right in the end.   Menzies once declared in Parliament that he believed he was "British to his bootstraps!"   He was but he was also an Australian.


Quote:

The toadys in 'Australian' government on both sides still kneel in the presence of UK politicians and royalty. "The idea that there was such a thing as an Australian nationality as distinct from a British one was considered by the High Court of Australia in 1906 to be a "novel idea" to which it was "not disposed to give any countenance". From Brian Ross's source.

I've never seen an Australia politician "kneel" before British Royalty or a British politician.   You appear to live in an alternative reality if you believe that is commonplace.   ::)

Mr Hammer wrote on Apr 29^th, 2019 at 7:48pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Apr 29th, 2019 at 7:43pm: Mr Hammer wrote on Apr 29th, 2019 at 6:41pm: [quote Good chance? We'd get obliterated Brian. China is dredging up the bottom and making sand islands with bases and them. The tyranny of distance is shrinking by the day. I'll tell you why China would love Australia- space. Lebensraum. People in China are living like caged chickens on top of each other. If the US had a civil war we'd be defenceless and other countries would start making their move. The stability of the US is our stability. It's just a fact. You really do live in a different reality, don't you, Hammer? China would not "obliterate" us.  Why would they bother?  They would need us as slaves, now wouldn't they? In reality, China lacks the need to attack Australia.   Lebensraum?  Australia lacks the soils to support a large population.  Our soils are the oldest on the planet and lack the nutrients to sustain massive cropping.  China is well aware of this fact, Hammer.   China is largely empty, despite your belief otherwise.  Most of it's population is on the coast and inland from there.  There is plenty of room further west, in Xinjiang and Tibet.   Why undertake a risky invasion when you already control large areas that are not being used?   Wars occur because of a need for a political outcome which cannot be achieved peacefully.  As Clausewitz put it, "War is but politics by a different means."   Sane politicians don't wage war unnecessarily.   China has no necessity to wage war on Australia.  None at all.  It also lacks the means.   It's navy is not equipped or trained for long range operations.   To build an island takes years and years and years, Hammer, it does not happen overnight.   You don't think we'd notice them building islands just to the north of our continent?   ::) You really need to stop with your Yellow Peril stories, Hammer.  Your Sinophobia is showing.   ::) ::) China is developing close relationships throughout the Pacific. Fiji loves China. China is making moves Brian. PNG is another one. You are in denial.

Closer relationships don't mean they are developing military bases, Hammer.  They are funding development, they are promoting Tourism and so on.  You need, as I have suggested to stop with your Yellow Peril stories.    ::)

Mr Hammer wrote on Apr 29^th, 2019 at 7:46pm:

I can't believe you are arguing with me about this. My fathers uncle blew his head off in a oven about 20 years after coming home from a Japanese POW camp. My mates uncle shot himself in the head. My pop was a smoker and bad drinker because he was in New Guinea. He died early.  My mates father was a bad drinker and smoker because of his service. They chopped off both of his legs before he died. Across the road when I lived in Blacktown was a Vietnam veteran who had a steel plate in his head from a booby trap. Every Saturday morning the whole street erupted from his domestic abuse. My father went around to his house one time and all the fibro walls were smashed in. His two kids were traumatised. The ones who witnessed combat were all damaged in some way. And it was years after Vietnam when they finally started diagnosing combat trauma. They weren't treated properly Brian. You know that.

You are talking about a relative minority of former Australian service people, Hammer.   Only 22,000 Australians became Pow(J), out of a total of nearly 1 million Australians who served.  That is a tiny minority.

As I've said, the Vietnam Veterans had a rough time but not all of them suffered from "combat trauma", Hammer.  I've served with and lived across the road, from Vietnam Veterans and they were perfectly normal people.  No violence, no problems, nothing to differentiate between them and other Australians except they served in Vietnam.   ::)

God you talk Turd Brian.v ::)
But you have my vote - as this place needs somebody like you to reflect what Australian Military is all about.  ;D

Jasin wrote on Apr 29^th, 2019 at 11:29pm:

God you talk Turd Brian.v ::) But you have my vote - as this place needs somebody like you to reflect what Australian Military is all about.  ;D

Posers who pretend they are war heroes but spent their time counting stores in a warehouse because they were too chickenshit to face the enemy?

Spatchcock wrote on May 2^nd, 2019 at 12:46am:

Jasin wrote on Apr 29th, 2019 at 11:29pm: God you talk Turd Brian.v ::) But you have my vote - as this place needs somebody like you to reflect what Australian Military is all about.  ;D Posers who pretend they are war heroes but spent their time counting stores in a warehouse because they were too chickenshit to face the enemy?

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/128170/2467911-yawn_20smiley.jpg

Oh, dearie, dearie, me.  You really crack me up, little chicken.  I went where I was sent by the Army.  I once was an infantry man until I cracked up my knee in a motorcycle accident.  Unlike you, I have never denigrated another service person's military life.   Little chicken, you are exactly what you claim you hate about Australian life so much.  Run along, back to your little kiddies' playground.  It is where you belong.    ::)

Brian Ross wrote on May 2^nd, 2019 at 1:59pm:

Spatchcock wrote on May 2nd, 2019 at 12:46am: Jasin wrote on Apr 29th, 2019 at 11:29pm: God you talk Turd Brian.v ::) But you have my vote - as this place needs somebody like you to reflect what Australian Military is all about.  ;D Posers who pretend they are war heroes but spent their time counting stores in a warehouse because they were too chickenshit to face the enemy? http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/128170/2467911-yawn_20smiley.jpg Oh, dearie, dearie, me.  You really crack me up, little chicken.  I went where I was sent by the Army.  I once was an infantry man until I cracked up my knee in a motorcycle accident.  Unlike you, I have never denigrated another service person's military life.   Little chicken, you are exactly what you claim you hate about Australian life so much.  Run along, back to your little kiddies' playground.  It is where you belong.    ::)

If you've never denigrated another service member you were never in the infantry. That is all the infantry do.

Spatchcock wrote on May 2^nd, 2019 at 3:31pm:

Brian Ross wrote on May 2nd, 2019 at 1:59pm: Spatchcock wrote on May 2nd, 2019 at 12:46am: Jasin wrote on Apr 29th, 2019 at 11:29pm: God you talk Turd Brian.v ::) But you have my vote - as this place needs somebody like you to reflect what Australian Military is all about.  ;D Posers who pretend they are war heroes but spent their time counting stores in a warehouse because they were too chickenshit to face the enemy? http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/128170/2467911-yawn_20smiley.jpg Oh, dearie, dearie, me.  You really crack me up, little chicken.  I went where I was sent by the Army.  I once was an infantry man until I cracked up my knee in a motorcycle accident.  Unlike you, I have never denigrated another service person's military life.   Little chicken, you are exactly what you claim you hate about Australian life so much.  Run along, back to your little kiddies' playground.  It is where you belong.    ::) If you've never denigrated another service member you were never in the infantry. That is all the infantry do.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/128170/2467911-yawn_20smiley.jpg

Oh, dearie, dearie, me, just won't learn will you, little chicken?  You just keep on digging your hole deeper and deeper.   You remind me of a digger I knew on my IET Course as an Infantryman.   We were told to dig down to "Stage 3" defences.   Stage 3 is three foot six inches deep (ie approximately 1 metre).   He dug down to about 5 feet and was still going when he was told to stop by the platoon sergeant.    ::)

Brian Ross wrote on Apr 29^th, 2019 at 11:12pm:

Mr Hammer wrote on Apr 29th, 2019 at 7:46pm: I can't believe you are arguing with me about this. My fathers uncle blew his head off in a oven about 20 years after coming home from a Japanese POW camp. My mates uncle shot himself in the head. My pop was a smoker and bad drinker because he was in New Guinea. He died early.  My mates father was a bad drinker and smoker because of his service. They chopped off both of his legs before he died. Across the road when I lived in Blacktown was a Vietnam veteran who had a steel plate in his head from a booby trap. Every Saturday morning the whole street erupted from his domestic abuse. My father went around to his house one time and all the fibro walls were smashed in. His two kids were traumatised. The ones who witnessed combat were all damaged in some way. And it was years after Vietnam when they finally started diagnosing combat trauma. They weren't treated properly Brian. You know that. You are talking about a relative minority of former Australian service people, Hammer.   Only 22,000 Australians became Pow(J), out of a total of nearly 1 million Australians who served.  That is a tiny minority. As I've said, the Vietnam Veterans had a rough time but not all of them suffered from "combat trauma", Hammer.  I've served with and lived across the road, from Vietnam Veterans and they were perfectly normal people.  No violence, no problems, nothing to differentiate between them and other Australians except they served in Vietnam.   ::)

My observation is mostly aimed at ww1 and ww2 veterans who witnessed combat. I'm not talking about REMF's Brian. Most came home damaged. Especially the ww1 veterans. They did have a roster but went through some truly terrible battles and constant shelling.

Mr Hammer wrote on May 2^nd, 2019 at 5:04pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Apr 29th, 2019 at 11:12pm: Mr Hammer wrote on Apr 29th, 2019 at 7:46pm: I can't believe you are arguing with me about this. My fathers uncle blew his head off in a oven about 20 years after coming home from a Japanese POW camp. My mates uncle shot himself in the head. My pop was a smoker and bad drinker because he was in New Guinea. He died early.  My mates father was a bad drinker and smoker because of his service. They chopped off both of his legs before he died. Across the road when I lived in Blacktown was a Vietnam veteran who had a steel plate in his head from a booby trap. Every Saturday morning the whole street erupted from his domestic abuse. My father went around to his house one time and all the fibro walls were smashed in. His two kids were traumatised. The ones who witnessed combat were all damaged in some way. And it was years after Vietnam when they finally started diagnosing combat trauma. They weren't treated properly Brian. You know that. You are talking about a relative minority of former Australian service people, Hammer.   Only 22,000 Australians became Pow(J), out of a total of nearly 1 million Australians who served.  That is a tiny minority. As I've said, the Vietnam Veterans had a rough time but not all of them suffered from "combat trauma", Hammer.  I've served with and lived across the road, from Vietnam Veterans and they were perfectly normal people.  No violence, no problems, nothing to differentiate between them and other Australians except they served in Vietnam.   ::) My observation is mostly aimed at ww1 and ww2 veterans who witnessed combat. I'm not talking about REMF's Brian. Most came home damaged. Especially the ww1 veterans. They did have a roster but went through some truly terrible battles and constant shelling.

No, shelling was directed primarily at the Trenches and then the artillery positions and form up sites behind the lines.   Ammunition was precious, particularly in the early part of the war, so it wasn't wasted.   Yes, many, but not all WWI veterans came home damaged, Hammer.  Many in WWII were similar.  Some from Korea and some from Vietnam.   Not all soldiers were "REMFs".    ::)

Brian Ross wrote on May 2^nd, 2019 at 4:58pm:

Spatchcock wrote on May 2nd, 2019 at 3:31pm: Brian Ross wrote on May 2nd, 2019 at 1:59pm: Spatchcock wrote on May 2nd, 2019 at 12:46am: Jasin wrote on Apr 29th, 2019 at 11:29pm: God you talk Turd Brian.v ::) But you have my vote - as this place needs somebody like you to reflect what Australian Military is all about.  ;D Posers who pretend they are war heroes but spent their time counting stores in a warehouse because they were too chickenshit to face the enemy? http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/128170/2467911-yawn_20smiley.jpg Oh, dearie, dearie, me.  You really crack me up, little chicken.  I went where I was sent by the Army.  I once was an infantry man until I cracked up my knee in a motorcycle accident.  Unlike you, I have never denigrated another service person's military life.   Little chicken, you are exactly what you claim you hate about Australian life so much.  Run along, back to your little kiddies' playground.  It is where you belong.    ::) If you've never denigrated another service member you were never in the infantry. That is all the infantry do. http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/128170/2467911-yawn_20smiley.jpg Oh, dearie, dearie, me, just won't learn will you, little chicken?  You just keep on digging your hole deeper and deeper.   You remind me of a digger I knew on my IET Course as an Infantryman.   We were told to dig down to "Stage 3" defences.   Stage 3 is three foot six inches deep (ie approximately 1 metre).   He dug down to about 5 feet and was still going when he was told to stop by the platoon sergeant.    ::)

Brian you are full of poo.

You have gone from:

Blanket counter extraordinaire

To:

Masters of PhD from ADFA

To:

Living across the road from Vietnam veterans and serving with different Vietnam veterans in the Army

To:

Collaborating with the official Australian war historian for Afghanistan

To:

Being in the infantry

Spatchcock wrote on May 3^rd, 2019 at 6:31am:

Brian Ross wrote on May 2nd, 2019 at 4:58pm: Spatchcock wrote on May 2nd, 2019 at 3:31pm: Brian Ross wrote on May 2nd, 2019 at 1:59pm: Spatchcock wrote on May 2nd, 2019 at 12:46am: Jasin wrote on Apr 29th, 2019 at 11:29pm: God you talk Turd Brian.v ::) But you have my vote - as this place needs somebody like you to reflect what Australian Military is all about.  ;D Posers who pretend they are war heroes but spent their time counting stores in a warehouse because they were too chickenshit to face the enemy? http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/128170/2467911-yawn_20smiley.jpg Oh, dearie, dearie, me.  You really crack me up, little chicken.  I went where I was sent by the Army.  I once was an infantry man until I cracked up my knee in a motorcycle accident.  Unlike you, I have never denigrated another service person's military life.   Little chicken, you are exactly what you claim you hate about Australian life so much.  Run along, back to your little kiddies' playground.  It is where you belong.    ::) If you've never denigrated another service member you were never in the infantry. That is all the infantry do. http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/128170/2467911-yawn_20smiley.jpg Oh, dearie, dearie, me, just won't learn will you, little chicken?  You just keep on digging your hole deeper and deeper.   You remind me of a digger I knew on my IET Course as an Infantryman.   We were told to dig down to "Stage 3" defences.   Stage 3 is three foot six inches deep (ie approximately 1 metre).   He dug down to about 5 feet and was still going when he was told to stop by the platoon sergeant.    ::) Brian you are full of poo. You have gone from: Blanket counter extraordinaire To: Masters of PhD from ADFA To: Living across the road from Vietnam veterans and serving with different Vietnam veterans in the Army To: Collaborating with the official Australian war historian for Afghanistan To: Being in the infantry

Appears you don't like that I refuse to hide my light under a bushel, little chicken.  Tough.   ::)

You. Are. A. Liar. You. Stupid. Astronaut.

Spatchcock wrote on May 3^rd, 2019 at 2:36pm:

You. Are. A. Liar. You. Stupid. Astronaut.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/128170/2467911-yawn_20smiley.jpg

Oh, dearie, dearie, me.  How old did you say you were?   12?  'cause you're acting like a 12 year old, little chicken.  Run along, back to your little kiddies' playground where you can roll in the mud all day long.    ::)

Okay. Back to the youth.

Spatchcock wrote on May 3^rd, 2019 at 5:17pm:

Okay. Back to the youth.

I think you left out an operative word there, little chicken.  It was the word "my" between the words "the" and "youth".   Have fun.    ::)

As opposed to the dinosaurs.