Fantastic result from the Victorian election Upper House. The Greens had 5 seats, now down to a single seat.  :) :)

matty wrote on Nov 26^th, 2018 at 11:28pm:

Fantastic result from the Victorian election Upper House. The Greens had 5 seats, now down to a single seat.  :) :)

Does it have something to do with animal welfare, Matty?

Please explain.

Even better news was Libs got absolutely hammered  :)

matty wrote on Nov 26^th, 2018 at 11:28pm:

Fantastic result from the Victorian election Upper House. The Greens had 5 seats, now down to a single seat.  :) :)

Greens: 9.2% of the vote - 1 seat.
Derryn Hinch's Justice Party: 3.4% of the vote - 4 seats.
Transport Matters Party: 0.6% of the vote - 2 seats.

Anyone who thinks this is a good result has no concept of fairness and is clueless about what's really going on. The same collusion mechanism that rigged the election so the Greens won only one seat with 9.2% of the vote can just as easily be used to exclude other parties. It shows why ticket voting in the Legislative Council is a farce and must be abolished. Voting must be in the hands of the voters, not political parties.

A more proportional result for 40 seats would look like this:

Party	Seats	Votes
Animal Justice Party	1	2.4%
Australian Greens	4	9.2%
Australian Labor Party	18	40.2%
Derryn Hinch's Justice Party	1	3.4%
Labour DLP	1	2.1%
Liberal/National	13	28.7%
Liberal Democrats	1	2.4%
Shooters Fishers and Farmers	1	3.4%

Its time wrote on Nov 27^th, 2018 at 3:48am:

Even better news was Libs got absolutely hammered  :)

They did, but they're gaining ground as counting progresses. They're about to gain a seat off Labor in the Northern Metropolitan region. They're currently behind the third Labor candidate by two votes on the final count.

Australian Labor Party 45,425
Liberal 45,423

Great news, the left still won.

There needs to be a change in voting system for upper houses and senates. Its not democratic when micro parties that get a handful of votes get seats.

The_Barnacle wrote on Nov 27^th, 2018 at 9:21am:

There needs to be a change in voting system for upper houses and senates. Its not democratic when micro parties that get a handful of votes get seats.

Malcolm Roberts anyone?

Bam wrote on Nov 27^th, 2018 at 9:08am:

matty wrote on Nov 26th, 2018 at 11:28pm: Fantastic result from the Victorian election Upper House. The Greens had 5 seats, now down to a single seat.  :) :) Greens: 9.2% of the vote - 1 seat. Derryn Hinch's Justice Party: 3.4% of the vote - 4 seats. Transport Matters Party: 0.6% of the vote - 2 seats. Anyone who thinks this is a good result has no concept of fairness and is clueless about what's really going on. The same collusion mechanism that rigged the election so the Greens won only one seat with 9.2% of the vote can just as easily be used to exclude other parties. It shows why ticket voting in the Legislative Council is a farce and must be abolished. Voting must be in the hands of the voters, not political parties. A more proportional result for 40 seats would look like this: Party Seats Votes Animal Justice Party 1 2.4% Australian Greens 4 9.2% Australian Labor Party 18 40.2% Derryn Hinch's Justice Party 1 3.4% Labour DLP 1 2.1% Liberal/National 13 28.7% Liberal Democrats 1 2.4% Shooters Fishers and Farmers 1 3.4%

Fair point but the Greens being kept out is just soooo good.

Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Nov 27^th, 2018 at 9:13am:

Great news, the left still won.

The left has been robbed of about four or five Legislative Council seats. A fairer result would have had 23 Left-leaning seats. The left are only going to get about 18 or 19 or so.

If Labor doesn't reform elections for the Legislative Council, the next election will be even worse. Two reforms that must be considered: abolishing ticket voting, imposing a minimum qualifying threshold for election of 2% to 3%.

Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Nov 27^th, 2018 at 9:13am:

Great news, the left still won.

Labor won, the Coalition was decimated. Everyone knows that; it’s been reported everywhere. Funny though, that the ABC have neglected to report this.

Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Nov 27^th, 2018 at 9:22am:

The_Barnacle wrote on Nov 27th, 2018 at 9:21am: There needs to be a change in voting system for upper houses and senates. Its not democratic when micro parties that get a handful of votes get seats. Malcolm Roberts anyone?

No. Try again.

Good to see the Greens losing influence since they seem to be more of an obstructionist party these days, getting in the way of things actually being done.

That's part of the reason Andrews improved the Labor vote.

Getting things done, that's the key to success.  8-)

matty wrote on Nov 27^th, 2018 at 9:25am:

Bam wrote on Nov 27th, 2018 at 9:08am: matty wrote on Nov 26th, 2018 at 11:28pm: Fantastic result from the Victorian election Upper House. The Greens had 5 seats, now down to a single seat.  :) :) Greens: 9.2% of the vote - 1 seat. Derryn Hinch's Justice Party: 3.4% of the vote - 4 seats. Transport Matters Party: 0.6% of the vote - 2 seats. Anyone who thinks this is a good result has no concept of fairness and is clueless about what's really going on. The same collusion mechanism that rigged the election so the Greens won only one seat with 9.2% of the vote can just as easily be used to exclude other parties. It shows why ticket voting in the Legislative Council is a farce and must be abolished. Voting must be in the hands of the voters, not political parties. A more proportional result for 40 seats would look like this: Party Seats Votes Animal Justice Party 1 2.4% Australian Greens 4 9.2% Australian Labor Party 18 40.2% Derryn Hinch's Justice Party 1 3.4% Labour DLP 1 2.1% Liberal/National 13 28.7% Liberal Democrats 1 2.4% Shooters Fishers and Farmers 1 3.4% Fair point but the Greens being kept out is just soooo good.

No, it isn't. Your rabid anti-Greens bias is blinding you to the fundamental unfairness of this. This same malappropriation of ticket votes has also disadvantaged the Liberals, who have received very few preferences from above-the-line votes from other parties.

Having one man holding so much power is a perversion of democracy, and I hope Druery ends up in jail. He's been openly canvassing bribes for votes and he's already been referred to the police.

matty wrote on Nov 27^th, 2018 at 9:27am:

Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Nov 27th, 2018 at 9:22am: The_Barnacle wrote on Nov 27th, 2018 at 9:21am: There needs to be a change in voting system for upper houses and senates. Its not democratic when micro parties that get a handful of votes get seats. Malcolm Roberts anyone? No. Try again.

Why is that? He's the perfect eaxmple of the point

The_Barnacle wrote on Nov 27^th, 2018 at 9:21am:

There needs to be a change in voting system for upper houses and senates. Its not democratic when micro parties that get a handful of votes get seats.

any ideas   HOW to stop them?..... ::) ::)

they have had the POWER   more so in the senate!for a long time.......

its a good lurk.. now they have found a way to make it even easier for them to get in....

Bam wrote on Nov 27^th, 2018 at 9:32am:

matty wrote on Nov 27th, 2018 at 9:25am: Bam wrote on Nov 27th, 2018 at 9:08am: matty wrote on Nov 26th, 2018 at 11:28pm: Fantastic result from the Victorian election Upper House. The Greens had 5 seats, now down to a single seat.  :) :) Greens: 9.2% of the vote - 1 seat. Derryn Hinch's Justice Party: 3.4% of the vote - 4 seats. Transport Matters Party: 0.6% of the vote - 2 seats. Anyone who thinks this is a good result has no concept of fairness and is clueless about what's really going on. The same collusion mechanism that rigged the election so the Greens won only one seat with 9.2% of the vote can just as easily be used to exclude other parties. It shows why ticket voting in the Legislative Council is a farce and must be abolished. Voting must be in the hands of the voters, not political parties. A more proportional result for 40 seats would look like this: Party Seats Votes Animal Justice Party 1 2.4% Australian Greens 4 9.2% Australian Labor Party 18 40.2% Derryn Hinch's Justice Party 1 3.4% Labour DLP 1 2.1% Liberal/National 13 28.7% Liberal Democrats 1 2.4% Shooters Fishers and Farmers 1 3.4% Fair point but the Greens being kept out is just soooo good. No, it isn't. Your rabid anti-Greens bias is blinding you to the fundamental unfairness of this. This same malappropriation of ticket votes has also disadvantaged the Liberals, who have received very few preferences from above-the-line votes from other parties. Having one man holding so much power is a perversion of democracy, and I hope Druery ends up in jail. He's been openly canvassing bribes for votes and he's already been referred to the police.

its no more rabid than those who are anti Lib....

the greens lost their way a long time ago  and yes its time people woke up to them....

as for this druery guy I have never heard of him before.....

since when is bribing someone for a vote illegal...

hasnt it been going on in the senate since Elvis was a boy?.....under the guise of deals.. ::) ::)

nothing is what it seems today.....

It's easy ... vote below the line to deny the deal-makers.

Thankfully, they made it easier this time by allowing a minimum 5 votes below the line to be a valid vote.  8-)

Bam wrote on Nov 27^th, 2018 at 9:08am:

matty wrote on Nov 26th, 2018 at 11:28pm: Fantastic result from the Victorian election Upper House. The Greens had 5 seats, now down to a single seat.  :) :) Greens: 9.2% of the vote - 1 seat. Derryn Hinch's Justice Party: 3.4% of the vote - 4 seats. Transport Matters Party: 0.6% of the vote - 2 seats. Anyone who thinks this is a good result has no concept of fairness and is clueless about what's really going on. The same collusion mechanism that rigged the election so the Greens won only one seat with 9.2% of the vote can just as easily be used to exclude other parties. It shows why ticket voting in the Legislative Council is a farce and must be abolished. Voting must be in the hands of the voters, not political parties. A more proportional result for 40 seats would look like this: Party Seats Votes Animal Justice Party 1 2.4% Australian Greens 4 9.2% Australian Labor Party 18 40.2% Derryn Hinch's Justice Party 1 3.4% Labour DLP 1 2.1% Liberal/National 13 28.7% Liberal Democrats 1 2.4% Shooters Fishers and Farmers 1 3.4%

Yes!

[smiley=thumbsup.gif]

Bam wrote on Nov 27^th, 2018 at 9:32am:

matty wrote on Nov 27th, 2018 at 9:25am: Bam wrote on Nov 27th, 2018 at 9:08am: matty wrote on Nov 26th, 2018 at 11:28pm: Fantastic result from the Victorian election Upper House. The Greens had 5 seats, now down to a single seat.  :) :) Greens: 9.2% of the vote - 1 seat. Derryn Hinch's Justice Party: 3.4% of the vote - 4 seats. Transport Matters Party: 0.6% of the vote - 2 seats. Anyone who thinks this is a good result has no concept of fairness and is clueless about what's really going on. The same collusion mechanism that rigged the election so the Greens won only one seat with 9.2% of the vote can just as easily be used to exclude other parties. It shows why ticket voting in the Legislative Council is a farce and must be abolished. Voting must be in the hands of the voters, not political parties. A more proportional result for 40 seats would look like this: Party Seats Votes Animal Justice Party 1 2.4% Australian Greens 4 9.2% Australian Labor Party 18 40.2% Derryn Hinch's Justice Party 1 3.4% Labour DLP 1 2.1% Liberal/National 13 28.7% Liberal Democrats 1 2.4% Shooters Fishers and Farmers 1 3.4% Fair point but the Greens being kept out is just soooo good. No, it isn't. Your rabid anti-Greens bias is blinding you to the fundamental unfairness of this. This same malappropriation of ticket votes has also disadvantaged the Liberals, who have received very few preferences from above-the-line votes from other parties. Having one man holding so much power is a perversion of democracy, and I hope Druery ends up in jail. He's been openly canvassing bribes for votes and he's already been referred to the police.

Be honest though - would you be saying the same thing had this happened to One Nation, as it has in the past?

Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Nov 27^th, 2018 at 9:34am:

matty wrote on Nov 27th, 2018 at 9:27am: Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Nov 27th, 2018 at 9:22am: The_Barnacle wrote on Nov 27th, 2018 at 9:21am: There needs to be a change in voting system for upper houses and senates. Its not democratic when micro parties that get a handful of votes get seats. Malcolm Roberts anyone? No. Try again. Why is that? He's the perfect eaxmple of the point

Because he was second on the One Nation ticket, and did not get enough elected on preferences; they received two quotas of votes.

I am sick to death of that disingenuous line about him receiving 77 or whatever it was first preference votes. That is below the line, and hardly anyone votes below the line. Do you vote above or below the line??

Captain Nemo wrote on Nov 27^th, 2018 at 9:50am:

It's easy ... vote below the line to deny the deal-makers. Thankfully, they made it easier this time by allowing a minimum 5 votes below the line to be a valid vote.  8-)

it would kill me to do that  I prefer not to vote than give some hillbilly the chance of getting over the
line.
you by all accounts dont care who gets over.

cods wrote on Nov 27^th, 2018 at 10:19am:

Captain Nemo wrote on Nov 27th, 2018 at 9:50am: It's easy ... vote below the line to deny the deal-makers. Thankfully, they made it easier this time by allowing a minimum 5 votes below the line to be a valid vote.  8-) it would kill me to do that  I prefer not to vote than give some hillbilly the chance of getting over the line. you by all accounts dont care who gets over.

You seem to have failed to understand my post.

By voting below the line, you get to choose the candidates of your choice. Voting above the line triggers the automatic preference distribution decided between the various parties.

i.e. The "preference whisperer" gets his way if you vote above the line.

matty wrote on Nov 27^th, 2018 at 10:12am:

Bam wrote on Nov 27th, 2018 at 9:32am: matty wrote on Nov 27th, 2018 at 9:25am: Bam wrote on Nov 27th, 2018 at 9:08am: matty wrote on Nov 26th, 2018 at 11:28pm: Fantastic result from the Victorian election Upper House. The Greens had 5 seats, now down to a single seat.  :) :) Greens: 9.2% of the vote - 1 seat. Derryn Hinch's Justice Party: 3.4% of the vote - 4 seats. Transport Matters Party: 0.6% of the vote - 2 seats. Anyone who thinks this is a good result has no concept of fairness and is clueless about what's really going on. The same collusion mechanism that rigged the election so the Greens won only one seat with 9.2% of the vote can just as easily be used to exclude other parties. It shows why ticket voting in the Legislative Council is a farce and must be abolished. Voting must be in the hands of the voters, not political parties. A more proportional result for 40 seats would look like this: Party Seats Votes Animal Justice Party 1 2.4% Australian Greens 4 9.2% Australian Labor Party 18 40.2% Derryn Hinch's Justice Party 1 3.4% Labour DLP 1 2.1% Liberal/National 13 28.7% Liberal Democrats 1 2.4% Shooters Fishers and Farmers 1 3.4% Fair point but the Greens being kept out is just soooo good. No, it isn't. Your rabid anti-Greens bias is blinding you to the fundamental unfairness of this. This same malappropriation of ticket votes has also disadvantaged the Liberals, who have received very few preferences from above-the-line votes from other parties. Having one man holding so much power is a perversion of democracy, and I hope Druery ends up in jail. He's been openly canvassing bribes for votes and he's already been referred to the police. Be honest though - would you be saying the same thing had this happened to One Nation, as it has in the past?

Link please ... show a recent election where One Nation has received nearly a full quota of votes (0.75 or more) but no representatives were elected on preferences due to ticket voting specifically.

matty wrote on Nov 27^th, 2018 at 10:12am:

Bam wrote on Nov 27th, 2018 at 9:32am: matty wrote on Nov 27th, 2018 at 9:25am: Bam wrote on Nov 27th, 2018 at 9:08am: matty wrote on Nov 26th, 2018 at 11:28pm: Fantastic result from the Victorian election Upper House. The Greens had 5 seats, now down to a single seat.  :) :) Greens: 9.2% of the vote - 1 seat. Derryn Hinch's Justice Party: 3.4% of the vote - 4 seats. Transport Matters Party: 0.6% of the vote - 2 seats. Anyone who thinks this is a good result has no concept of fairness and is clueless about what's really going on. The same collusion mechanism that rigged the election so the Greens won only one seat with 9.2% of the vote can just as easily be used to exclude other parties. It shows why ticket voting in the Legislative Council is a farce and must be abolished. Voting must be in the hands of the voters, not political parties. A more proportional result for 40 seats would look like this: Party Seats Votes Animal Justice Party 1 2.4% Australian Greens 4 9.2% Australian Labor Party 18 40.2% Derryn Hinch's Justice Party 1 3.4% Labour DLP 1 2.1% Liberal/National 13 28.7% Liberal Democrats 1 2.4% Shooters Fishers and Farmers 1 3.4% Fair point but the Greens being kept out is just soooo good. No, it isn't. Your rabid anti-Greens bias is blinding you to the fundamental unfairness of this. This same malappropriation of ticket votes has also disadvantaged the Liberals, who have received very few preferences from above-the-line votes from other parties. Having one man holding so much power is a perversion of democracy, and I hope Druery ends up in jail. He's been openly canvassing bribes for votes and he's already been referred to the police. Be honest though - would you be saying the same thing had this happened to One Nation, as it has in the past?

On this point, I say that group ticket voting should be abolished. I have been saying this for some time.


Bam wrote on Feb 14^th, 2016 at 12:19pm:

Abolish group voting tickets Abolish how to vote cards Allow voters to vote for groups above the line or single candidates below the line Everyone gets a box above the line, not just grouped candidates Sensible reforms to consider!

Bam wrote on Sep 8^th, 2013 at 10:08am:

I feel vindicated here. I started a thread about the farcical nature of Senate voting before the election and it is interesting - and rather disturbing - to see just how right I am. It is a farce that parties we haven't heard of have probably got elected to the Senate. (snip) Keating called the Senate "unrepresentative swill". Never have his words rung so true as they have with this vote. Minor parties should not be elected based on a lottery, as has clearly happened in NSW; the "Liberal Democrats" won group A on the NSW ballot while the "Liberal and Nationals" group were buried in Group Y. If ever there's a case to abolish ticket voting, it was eloquently made with this result. I hope both major parties learn a lesson from this. The Liberals in particular should feel aggrieved given that these results have probably cost them seats. The sooner we replace the Senate voting with a simpler system, the better off we will all be.

It has been abolished for federal elections but it should be abolished for state elections as well.

Bam wrote on Nov 27^th, 2018 at 4:56pm:

matty wrote on Nov 27th, 2018 at 10:12am: Bam wrote on Nov 27th, 2018 at 9:32am: matty wrote on Nov 27th, 2018 at 9:25am: Bam wrote on Nov 27th, 2018 at 9:08am: matty wrote on Nov 26th, 2018 at 11:28pm: Fantastic result from the Victorian election Upper House. The Greens had 5 seats, now down to a single seat.  :) :) Greens: 9.2% of the vote - 1 seat. Derryn Hinch's Justice Party: 3.4% of the vote - 4 seats. Transport Matters Party: 0.6% of the vote - 2 seats. Anyone who thinks this is a good result has no concept of fairness and is clueless about what's really going on. The same collusion mechanism that rigged the election so the Greens won only one seat with 9.2% of the vote can just as easily be used to exclude other parties. It shows why ticket voting in the Legislative Council is a farce and must be abolished. Voting must be in the hands of the voters, not political parties. A more proportional result for 40 seats would look like this: Party Seats Votes Animal Justice Party 1 2.4% Australian Greens 4 9.2% Australian Labor Party 18 40.2% Derryn Hinch's Justice Party 1 3.4% Labour DLP 1 2.1% Liberal/National 13 28.7% Liberal Democrats 1 2.4% Shooters Fishers and Farmers 1 3.4% Fair point but the Greens being kept out is just soooo good. No, it isn't. Your rabid anti-Greens bias is blinding you to the fundamental unfairness of this. This same malappropriation of ticket votes has also disadvantaged the Liberals, who have received very few preferences from above-the-line votes from other parties. Having one man holding so much power is a perversion of democracy, and I hope Druery ends up in jail. He's been openly canvassing bribes for votes and he's already been referred to the police. Be honest though - would you be saying the same thing had this happened to One Nation, as it has in the past? Link please ... show a recent election where One Nation has received nearly a full quota of votes (0.75 or more) but no representatives were elected on preferences due to ticket voting specifically.

2011 NSW state election.

Bam wrote on Nov 27^th, 2018 at 5:08pm:

matty wrote on Nov 27th, 2018 at 10:12am: Bam wrote on Nov 27th, 2018 at 9:32am: matty wrote on Nov 27th, 2018 at 9:25am: Bam wrote on Nov 27th, 2018 at 9:08am: matty wrote on Nov 26th, 2018 at 11:28pm: Fantastic result from the Victorian election Upper House. The Greens had 5 seats, now down to a single seat.  :) :) Greens: 9.2% of the vote - 1 seat. Derryn Hinch's Justice Party: 3.4% of the vote - 4 seats. Transport Matters Party: 0.6% of the vote - 2 seats. Anyone who thinks this is a good result has no concept of fairness and is clueless about what's really going on. The same collusion mechanism that rigged the election so the Greens won only one seat with 9.2% of the vote can just as easily be used to exclude other parties. It shows why ticket voting in the Legislative Council is a farce and must be abolished. Voting must be in the hands of the voters, not political parties. A more proportional result for 40 seats would look like this: Party Seats Votes Animal Justice Party 1 2.4% Australian Greens 4 9.2% Australian Labor Party 18 40.2% Derryn Hinch's Justice Party 1 3.4% Labour DLP 1 2.1% Liberal/National 13 28.7% Liberal Democrats 1 2.4% Shooters Fishers and Farmers 1 3.4% Fair point but the Greens being kept out is just soooo good. No, it isn't. Your rabid anti-Greens bias is blinding you to the fundamental unfairness of this. This same malappropriation of ticket votes has also disadvantaged the Liberals, who have received very few preferences from above-the-line votes from other parties. Having one man holding so much power is a perversion of democracy, and I hope Druery ends up in jail. He's been openly canvassing bribes for votes and he's already been referred to the police. Be honest though - would you be saying the same thing had this happened to One Nation, as it has in the past? On this point, I say that group ticket voting should be abolished. I have been saying this for some time. Bam wrote on Feb 14th, 2016 at 12:19pm: Abolish group voting tickets Abolish how to vote cards Allow voters to vote for groups above the line or single candidates below the line Everyone gets a box above the line, not just grouped candidates Sensible reforms to consider! Bam wrote on Sep 8th, 2013 at 10:08am: I feel vindicated here. I started a thread about the farcical nature of Senate voting before the election and it is interesting - and rather disturbing - to see just how right I am. It is a farce that parties we haven't heard of have probably got elected to the Senate. (snip) Keating called the Senate "unrepresentative swill". Never have his words rung so true as they have with this vote. Minor parties should not be elected based on a lottery, as has clearly happened in NSW; the "Liberal Democrats" won group A on the NSW ballot while the "Liberal and Nationals" group were buried in Group Y. If ever there's a case to abolish ticket voting, it was eloquently made with this result. I hope both major parties learn a lesson from this. The Liberals in particular should feel aggrieved given that these results have probably cost them seats. The sooner we replace the Senate voting with a simpler system, the better off we will all be. It has been abolished for federal elections but it should be abolished for state elections as well.

On this point though, there is an alternative whereby you can decide EXACTLY where your preferences go: vote below the line, and list every box so that you can order your favourite to least favourite precisely. I have always done that. Next election will be no different, as I am able to put the hypocritical, sanctimonious, white, misandrist anti-Australian Greens dead last.

matty wrote on Nov 28^th, 2018 at 7:53am:

Bam wrote on Nov 27th, 2018 at 4:56pm: matty wrote on Nov 27th, 2018 at 10:12am: Bam wrote on Nov 27th, 2018 at 9:32am: No, it isn't. Your rabid anti-Greens bias is blinding you to the fundamental unfairness of this. This same malappropriation of ticket votes has also disadvantaged the Liberals, who have received very few preferences from above-the-line votes from other parties. Having one man holding so much power is a perversion of democracy, and I hope Druery ends up in jail. He's been openly canvassing bribes for votes and he's already been referred to the police. Be honest though - would you be saying the same thing had this happened to One Nation, as it has in the past? Link please ... show a recent election where One Nation has received nearly a full quota of votes (0.75 or more) but no representatives were elected on preferences due to ticket voting specifically. 2011 NSW state election.

1. No links.
2. NSW did not have ticket voting for the upper house in 2011.
3. One Nation did not contest the 2011 NSW State election. The "Independent Hanson" faction only got 2.41% of the vote, or 0.53 of a quota - nowhere near a quota (4.55%).

Next time, POST LINKS.

matty wrote on Nov 28^th, 2018 at 7:56am:

Bam wrote on Nov 27th, 2018 at 5:08pm: On this point, I say that group ticket voting should be abolished. (snip) It has been abolished for federal elections but it should be abolished for state elections as well. On this point though, there is an alternative whereby you can decide EXACTLY where your preferences go: vote below the line, and list every box so that you can order your favourite to least favourite precisely. I have always done that. Next election will be no different, as I am able to put the hypocritical, sanctimonious, white, misandrist anti-Australian Greens dead last.

You can vote as you please.

However, we shouldn't have a voting system that encourages malappropriation of votes or the rigging of elections. We must abolish ticket voting in Victoria and Western Australia because it is a farce. Numbering boxes above the line should be equivalent to numbering below the line in sequence.

cods wrote on Nov 27^th, 2018 at 9:41am:

The_Barnacle wrote on Nov 27th, 2018 at 9:21am: There needs to be a change in voting system for upper houses and senates. Its not democratic when micro parties that get a handful of votes get seats. any ideas   HOW to stop them?..... ::) ::) they have had the POWER   more so in the senate!for a long time....... its a good lurk.. now they have found a way to make it even easier for them to get in....

Do something about preference deals or maybe regulate how to vote cards. Make the how to vote card have all options given.

I.E. Vote for me with preferences going to "a", "b", "c","d" etc..

Give preference to the voter and not the party.

Dnarever wrote on Nov 28^th, 2018 at 9:34am:

cods wrote on Nov 27th, 2018 at 9:41am: The_Barnacle wrote on Nov 27th, 2018 at 9:21am: There needs to be a change in voting system for upper houses and senates. Its not democratic when micro parties that get a handful of votes get seats. any ideas   HOW to stop them?..... ::) ::) they have had the POWER   more so in the senate!for a long time....... its a good lurk.. now they have found a way to make it even easier for them to get in.... Do something about preference deals or maybe regulate how to vote cards. Make the how to vote card have all options given. I.E. Vote for me with preferences going to "a", "b", "c","d" etc.. Give preference to the voter and not the party.

Abolish partisan how to vote cards.

Instead, have AEC how to vote cards.

https://i.imgflip.com/2nlh5q.jpg

Dnarever wrote on Nov 28^th, 2018 at 9:34am:

cods wrote on Nov 27th, 2018 at 9:41am: The_Barnacle wrote on Nov 27th, 2018 at 9:21am: There needs to be a change in voting system for upper houses and senates. Its not democratic when micro parties that get a handful of votes get seats. any ideas   HOW to stop them?..... ::) ::) they have had the POWER   more so in the senate!for a long time....... its a good lurk.. now they have found a way to make it even easier for them to get in.... Do something about preference deals or maybe regulate how to vote cards. Make the how to vote card have all options given. I.E. Vote for me with preferences going to "a", "b", "c","d" etc.. Give preference to the voter and not the party.

Abolish ticket voting. Numbering above the line is equivalent to numbering sequentially below the line. Problem solved.

greggerypeccary wrote on Nov 28^th, 2018 at 9:46am:

Dnarever wrote on Nov 28th, 2018 at 9:34am: cods wrote on Nov 27th, 2018 at 9:41am: The_Barnacle wrote on Nov 27th, 2018 at 9:21am: There needs to be a change in voting system for upper houses and senates. Its not democratic when micro parties that get a handful of votes get seats. any ideas   HOW to stop them?..... ::) ::) they have had the POWER   more so in the senate!for a long time....... its a good lurk.. now they have found a way to make it even easier for them to get in.... Do something about preference deals or maybe regulate how to vote cards. Make the how to vote card have all options given. I.E. Vote for me with preferences going to "a", "b", "c","d" etc.. Give preference to the voter and not the party. Abolish partisan how to vote cards. Instead, have AEC how to vote cards. https://i.imgflip.com/2nlh5q.jpg

Abolishing how-to-vote cards from parties should also be considered. Preferences should be in the hands of the voters.

If that's done, we should consider introducing some form of Robson rotation for the ballot papers, so being placed top or bottom on a ballot paper does not confer any advantage.

Bam wrote on Nov 28^th, 2018 at 9:14am:

matty wrote on Nov 28th, 2018 at 7:53am: Bam wrote on Nov 27th, 2018 at 4:56pm: matty wrote on Nov 27th, 2018 at 10:12am: Bam wrote on Nov 27th, 2018 at 9:32am: No, it isn't. Your rabid anti-Greens bias is blinding you to the fundamental unfairness of this. This same malappropriation of ticket votes has also disadvantaged the Liberals, who have received very few preferences from above-the-line votes from other parties. Having one man holding so much power is a perversion of democracy, and I hope Druery ends up in jail. He's been openly canvassing bribes for votes and he's already been referred to the police. Be honest though - would you be saying the same thing had this happened to One Nation, as it has in the past? Link please ... show a recent election where One Nation has received nearly a full quota of votes (0.75 or more) but no representatives were elected on preferences due to ticket voting specifically. 2011 NSW state election. 1. No links. 2. NSW did not have ticket voting for the upper house in 2011. 3. One Nation did not contest the 2011 NSW State election. The "Independent Hanson" faction only got 2.41% of the vote, or 0.53 of a quota - nowhere near a quota (4.55%). Next time, POST LINKS.

True, Pauline did run as an independent.

However, she did receive just over half a quota whereas the Nats and the Greens candidates “elected” in the last two spots received far fewer.

Didn’t you have a go at me for making an “arbitrary cutoff” for lower house seats at 42%, and now you do the same here.

Bam wrote on Nov 28^th, 2018 at 9:24am:

matty wrote on Nov 28th, 2018 at 7:56am: Bam wrote on Nov 27th, 2018 at 5:08pm: On this point, I say that group ticket voting should be abolished. (snip) It has been abolished for federal elections but it should be abolished for state elections as well. On this point though, there is an alternative whereby you can decide EXACTLY where your preferences go: vote below the line, and list every box so that you can order your favourite to least favourite precisely. I have always done that. Next election will be no different, as I am able to put the hypocritical, sanctimonious, white, misandrist anti-Australian Greens dead last. You can vote as you please. However, we shouldn't have a voting system that encourages malappropriation of votes or the rigging of elections. We must abolish ticket voting in Victoria and Western Australia because it is a farce. Numbering boxes above the line should be equivalent to numbering below the line in sequence.

But again you didn’t address why not just do what I said: go to the effort of voting below the line? It’s simple. I always do it. That way you can decide exactly and precisely where all your preferences go.

Bam wrote on Nov 28^th, 2018 at 9:52am:

greggerypeccary wrote on Nov 28th, 2018 at 9:46am: Dnarever wrote on Nov 28th, 2018 at 9:34am: cods wrote on Nov 27th, 2018 at 9:41am: The_Barnacle wrote on Nov 27th, 2018 at 9:21am: There needs to be a change in voting system for upper houses and senates. Its not democratic when micro parties that get a handful of votes get seats. any ideas   HOW to stop them?..... ::) ::) they have had the POWER   more so in the senate!for a long time....... its a good lurk.. now they have found a way to make it even easier for them to get in.... Do something about preference deals or maybe regulate how to vote cards. Make the how to vote card have all options given. I.E. Vote for me with preferences going to "a", "b", "c","d" etc.. Give preference to the voter and not the party. Abolish partisan how to vote cards. Instead, have AEC how to vote cards. https://i.imgflip.com/2nlh5q.jpg Abolishing how-to-vote cards from parties should also be considered.

Absolutely.

No how to vote cards from candidates. None, whatsoever.

Only cards from the AEC, which give general instructions (for those too stupid to know how to vote).

Personally, I think that if you don't know how to cast a legal vote by the time you get to the polling place, you've forfeited your right to participate.

matty wrote on Nov 28^th, 2018 at 9:53am:

Bam wrote on Nov 28th, 2018 at 9:14am: matty wrote on Nov 28th, 2018 at 7:53am: Bam wrote on Nov 27th, 2018 at 4:56pm: matty wrote on Nov 27th, 2018 at 10:12am: Bam wrote on Nov 27th, 2018 at 9:32am: No, it isn't. Your rabid anti-Greens bias is blinding you to the fundamental unfairness of this. This same malappropriation of ticket votes has also disadvantaged the Liberals, who have received very few preferences from above-the-line votes from other parties. Having one man holding so much power is a perversion of democracy, and I hope Druery ends up in jail. He's been openly canvassing bribes for votes and he's already been referred to the police. Be honest though - would you be saying the same thing had this happened to One Nation, as it has in the past? Link please ... show a recent election where One Nation has received nearly a full quota of votes (0.75 or more) but no representatives were elected on preferences due to ticket voting specifically. 2011 NSW state election. 1. No links. 2. NSW did not have ticket voting for the upper house in 2011. 3. One Nation did not contest the 2011 NSW State election. The "Independent Hanson" faction only got 2.41% of the vote, or 0.53 of a quota - nowhere near a quota (4.55%). Next time, POST LINKS. True, Pauline did run as an independent. However, she did receive just over half a quota whereas the Nats and the Greens candidates “elected” in the last two spots received far fewer. Didn’t you have a go at me for making an “arbitrary cutoff” for lower house seats at 42%, and now you do the same here.

Your point is irrelevant because NSW did not use ticket voting at the 2011 NSW state election. I asked about ticket voting specifically.

The real problem here is likely to be the use of how-to-vote cards to direct preferences, a practice I also do not like. Democracy should be in the hands of voters, not political parties. Ticket voting violates this principle, and how-to-vote cards also do, to a lesser degree.

As for using 75% as a cutoff, that's intended to make it easier for you to provide examples. I could have used a 90% cutoff. That's the percentage of the quota that the Liberal party has provisionally reached in at least one of the eight regions of the Victorian state election where they did not gain enough additional votes on preferences from ticket voting to get an additional member elected. They're left stranded as the last unelected candidate standing.

Here's how bad it is, as it stands right now:

Northern Metropolitan: Liberal quota 0.9728 - elected as last candidate by 112 votes.
Northern Victoria: Liberal/National quota 1.9390 - one Liberal elected.
Western Victoria: Liberal/National quota 1.8329 - one Liberal elected.

The ticket voting has clearly disadvantaged the Liberals.

matty wrote on Nov 28^th, 2018 at 9:54am:

Bam wrote on Nov 28th, 2018 at 9:24am: matty wrote on Nov 28th, 2018 at 7:56am: Bam wrote on Nov 27th, 2018 at 5:08pm: On this point, I say that group ticket voting should be abolished. (snip) It has been abolished for federal elections but it should be abolished for state elections as well. On this point though, there is an alternative whereby you can decide EXACTLY where your preferences go: vote below the line, and list every box so that you can order your favourite to least favourite precisely. I have always done that. Next election will be no different, as I am able to put the hypocritical, sanctimonious, white, misandrist anti-Australian Greens dead last. You can vote as you please. However, we shouldn't have a voting system that encourages malappropriation of votes or the rigging of elections. We must abolish ticket voting in Victoria and Western Australia because it is a farce. Numbering boxes above the line should be equivalent to numbering below the line in sequence. But again you didn’t address why not just do what I said: go to the effort of voting below the line? It’s simple. I always do it. That way you can decide exactly and precisely where all your preferences go.

I don't need to. Do you really think I'm going to succeed in convincing three million lazy voters to do the right thing when it's far easier for me to see my local MP and try to convince them to change the system? I only have to convince one person, not three million, and after the farcical result of the Legislative Council and the unrepresentative swill that's been elected, I doubt they would need much convincing.

And for the record I did vote below the line. All of the boxes.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DtDiVoFV4AARjCD.jpg