It is bad enough that Tesla is going broke but now its cars are being declared DEATH TRAPS!!!!!


It’s about Elon Musk’s electric cars
AMM on 11/05/2018

OK, being fair driving a car into an immovable object at speed is likely to catch fire. But it’s worse if Lithium-ion batteries are on board.

Airlines know all about that. However, Elon has much to worry about these days and there is big money (not being there) at stake. I think I’ll put that voyage to Mars on hold for a while.

Safety investigators in the US are investigating a crash in which the battery of a Tesla electric car caught fire, burning two teenagers to death.

A witness to the crash in Fort Lauderdale, Florida, said the Tesla Model S was being driven fast and spun out of control. It then crashed into a wall and caught fire. Police said two 18-year-olds were trapped and died when the car became engulfed in flames.



Teenagers killed in fire after Tesla crashes, battery bursts into flames
Source: ABC

Another teenager was thrown from the car and was taken to a hospital, where his condition was unknown.

The witness said he tried to help the teenagers but the fire was too intense to get them out of the car.

Lithium-ion batteries like those used by Tesla can catch fire and burn rapidly in a crash, although Tesla has maintained its vehicles catch fire far less often than those powered by petrol.

The National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) said a four-person team would focus on the emergency response to the incident.
It said it did not expect Tesla’s semi-autonomous Autopilot system to be a part of the investigation.

This is the second time in the past two months the NTSB has investigated a Tesla fire.

A probe is underway into a fire in a Tesla Model X SUV that crashed on a freeway near Mountain View, California, on March 23.

NTSB spokesman Chris O’Neil said investigators did not know what caused the battery fire in this week’s crash.

He said the agency was investigating because there was a post-crash fire involving an electric vehicle.

Earlier this month, Tesla and the NTSB got into an open feud over Tesla’s release of information from the probe into the Mountain View crash.

The agency said it booted Tesla out of a group investigating the crash after the company prematurely made investigation details public.

Tesla, however, disputed the claim. The company said it withdrew from the investigation agreement after being told it would be kicked out if it made additional statements before the NTSB finished its probe in the next 12 to 24 months.

Mr O’Neil said that despite the previous dispute, Tesla would be invited to be a party to the investigation of the Fort Lauderdale crash.
Tesla has been contacted for comment.

The NTSB normally makes recommendations to other federal agencies such as the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, which has authority to impose regulations and seek recalls.
AP/ABC

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COMMENTS

luk1955 11/05/2018, 6:28 am
Governments are so desperate to get us into these dangerous cars that they are bypassing the safety standards imposed on the IC making car companies. Yet we, in a country of supposedly limited government, allow such governments to make unlimited laws and regulations for no reason other than to rob us of our freedom. What happened to this concept of limited government? Hopefully Tesla goes under.


Ian 11/05/2018, 8:00 am
The government won’t make ICE illegal in Aus, they will make them uneconomical, they will make them pay more in tax, like cigarettes and alcohol. All for our own good.
Watch this space, expect a significant tax rise on petrol and purchases of ICE cars over the next 10 years to force is to align with the world push to limit our travel and push our power networks to a point well above their generating capacity.


Clarion Call 11/05/2018, 9:15 am
Now that the black messiah isn’t there to help out as usual with lots of taxpayers’ money, Mr. Musk might have a hard time conning Mulvaney and Trump into more of the same. They’re awake to his lurks and grandiose ideas with other peoples’ money.


DT 11/05/2018, 1:11 pm
Our federal government has already commenced EV promotion by gifting Macquarie Bank Leasing $100 million of our money to encourage fleet operators to use EV.

From 2019 2-stroke petrol engines will be banned from sale. I understand that diesel engines will be banned from sale by 2030.

Yet we have an electricity supply crisis and governments are not encouraging power station construction.

http://morningmail.org/elon-musks-electric-cars/#more-81446

As tragic as the accident was only 2 weeks before that the kid was caught doing 160km in a township, so why was he on the road at all, its the fastest car in the world for 100km acceleration, in QLD P platers arnt allowed to drive high powered cars. Even worse Tesla have a lockable mode called VALET that speed restricts the car.
Ice vehicles catch on fire 5 times as much as electric vehicles in USA , but hay don't see News on the 550 ICE fires a year.....
If a barber is doing well, and buys a new premise , and spends more than he makes for the year he isn't going broke.. :D :D :D :D
He makes a lose for the year, but expands.

YouLiar posted about a fire in a wind generator nacelle that killed two workers. Oooohhhhhh BAD, DANGEROUS wind energy.

No mention that two coal miners are killed EVERY DAY, pretty much.

Some people can’t reason. Booby and YouLiar are two who can’t.

Jovial Monk wrote on May 12^th, 2018 at 10:41am:

YouLiar posted about a fire in a wind generator nacelle that killed two workers. Oooohhhhhh BAD, DANGEROUS wind energy. No mention that two coal miners are killed EVERY DAY, pretty much. Some people can’t reason. Booby and YouLiar are two who can’t.

Funny I could only find an official report that showed that in 2013 - 2014 FY a total of 5 coal miners were killed at work.


Any chance you could tell us where the other 725 deaths occurred for that year

DonDeeHippy wrote on May 12^th, 2018 at 8:45am:

As tragic as the accident was only 2 weeks before that the kid was caught doing 160km in a township, so why was he on the road at all, its the fastest car in the world for 100km acceleration, in QLD P platers arnt allowed to drive high powered cars. Even worse Tesla have a lockable mode called VALET that speed restricts the car. Ice vehicles catch on fire 5 times as much as electric vehicles in USA , but hay don't see News on the 550 ICE fires a year..... If a barber is doing well, and buys a new premise , and spends more than he makes for the year he isn't going broke.. :D :D :D :D He makes a lose for the year, but expands.

Ice vehicles tend to burn slowly. The battery fire was a "fireball" apparently.

As to the barber if he keeps spending more money than he makes; he will go broke.

A public company has shareholders who each has their own risk profile. They will tend to buy in or get out according to those profiles.

It is not solely in the hands of the "barber". He is just giving their wallet a "haircut".


Remember recently you were talking about an uptick in Tesla share price but it was still about $90 below its 12 month high?

You cannot put out a Lithium fire with water.

Have Tesla made any money?

Baronvonrort wrote on May 12^th, 2018 at 1:23pm:

You cannot put out a Lithium fire with water. Have Tesla made any money?

Hehe u put out any petrol fires with water lately ?

Has demand for Tesla products slowed down lately ?
ohh that's right they still have 450,000 pre orders with a $1000 deposit each for just one of their products.
Has production slowed ohh wait yearly production of 2000 to 100,000  in 5 years, this year looks to be about 200,000
They r now the biggest sellers of EV's in the world, but r going broke.......

lee wrote on May 12^th, 2018 at 1:14pm:

DonDeeHippy wrote on May 12th, 2018 at 8:45am: As tragic as the accident was only 2 weeks before that the kid was caught doing 160km in a township, so why was he on the road at all, its the fastest car in the world for 100km acceleration, in QLD P platers arnt allowed to drive high powered cars. Even worse Tesla have a lockable mode called VALET that speed restricts the car. Ice vehicles catch on fire 5 times as much as electric vehicles in USA , but hay don't see News on the 550 ICE fires a year..... If a barber is doing well, and buys a new premise , and spends more than he makes for the year he isn't going broke.. :D :D :D :D He makes a lose for the year, but expands. Ice vehicles tend to burn slowly. The battery fire was a "fireball" apparently. As to the barber if he keeps spending more money than he makes; he will go broke. A public company has shareholders who each has their own risk profile. They will tend to buy in or get out according to those profiles. It is not solely in the hands of the "barber". He is just giving their wallet a "haircut". Remember recently you were talking about an uptick in Tesla share price but it was still about $90 below its 12 month high?

On average, 31 highway vehicle fires were reported per hour. These fires killed one person a day. Overall, highway vehicles fires were involved in 17% of reported U.S. fires, 12% of U.S. fire deaths, 8% of U.S. civilian fire injuries, and 9% of the direct property damage from reported fires.

Yes its a tragedy but cars catch of fire a lot......

Hmm yeah 52 billion Market capp damm
General Motors  51 billion Market Capp, Ford 43 Billion and both have gone bankrupt.
SO a Company that been only making cars in Number for 5 years are worth more than the 3 biggist car manufacturers in USA, have billions in preorders and increasing production maybe even 2 fold this year, really hitting the skids almost broke they r.

DonDeeHippy wrote on May 12^th, 2018 at 3:55pm:

Hehe u put out any petrol fires with water lately ?

With the correct retardants - yes. Added to the hose as the water exits the tanker.

I'm a Volunteer Fire Fighter with Road Crash Rescue tasks.


DonDeeHippy wrote on May 12^th, 2018 at 3:55pm:

Has demand for Tesla products slowed down lately ? ohh that's right they still have 450,000 pre orders with a $1000 deposit each for just one of their products. Has production slowed ohh wait yearly production of 2000 to 100,000  in 5 years, this year looks to be about 200,000 They r now the biggest sellers of EV's in the world, but r going broke.......

If you keep selling cars below the cost of manufacture and reliant on "green energy" subsidies; that's the way they are heading. Eventually they must generate a profit before they go broke. Breaking even isn't an option; and they are not there yet.

DonDeeHippy wrote on May 12^th, 2018 at 4:27pm:

On average, 31 highway vehicle fires were reported per hour. These fires killed one person a day. Overall, highway vehicles fires were involved in 17% of reported U.S. fires, 12% of U.S. fire deaths, 8% of U.S. civilian fire injuries, and 9% of the direct property damage from reported fires. Yes its a tragedy but cars catch of fire a lot...... Hmm yeah 52 billion Market capp damm General Motors  51 billion Market Capp, Ford 43 Billion and both have gone bankrupt. SO a Company that been only making cars in Number for 5 years are worth more than the 3 biggist car manufacturers in USA, have billions in preorders and increasing production maybe even 2 fold this year, really hitting the skids almost broke they r.

Now have think. How many of those fires have been reported as a "fireball"? That means there is generally the opportunity to escape the vehicle before being burnt to death. If people can escape they may be burnt in extracting themselves or being extracted. Obviously if there is entrapment of people in the vehicle all bets are off.

lee wrote on May 12^th, 2018 at 4:32pm:

DonDeeHippy wrote on May 12th, 2018 at 3:55pm: Hehe u put out any petrol fires with water lately ? With the correct retardants - yes. Added to the hose as the water exits the tanker. I'm a Volunteer Fire Fighter with Road Crash Rescue tasks. DonDeeHippy wrote on May 12th, 2018 at 3:55pm: Has demand for Tesla products slowed down lately ? ohh that's right they still have 450,000 pre orders with a $1000 deposit each for just one of their products. Has production slowed ohh wait yearly production of 2000 to 100,000  in 5 years, this year looks to be about 200,000 They r now the biggest sellers of EV's in the world, but r going broke....... If you keep selling cars below the cost of manufacture and reliant on "green energy" subsidies; that's the way they are heading. Eventually they must generate a profit before they go broke. Breaking even isn't an option; and they are not there yet.

Very true if they keep selling cars below the cost of Manufacture they will go broke.
They sell cars with one of the highest profit margins of any car manufacturer though, about same as Porsche.
I guess setting up 3 Factories , one of then the biggist factory in the world, must cost money. who would think hey Lee  ;) ;) ;)
I think u keep forgetting the 450,000 pre orders for just one product, they would be mad not to spend every cent for more expanding, ohh and production looks to double this year over last.
if they made no profit and didn't expand id be very worried.
;) ;)
I think its very refreshing to see a company that isn't looking at the short term for a change and kicking arse.

DonDeeHippy wrote on May 12^th, 2018 at 4:42pm:

Very true if they keep selling cars below the cost of Manufacture they will go broke. They sell cars with one of the highest profit margins of any car manufacturer though, about same as Porsche.

Then why haven't they turned a profit yet?
Earnings Per Share -     EPS % Chg (Last Qtr)     -152%

Profit Margin     -14.3%

https://research.investors.com/stock-quotes/nasdaq-tesla-inc-tsla.htm

https://research.investors.com/stock-quotes/nasdaq-tesla-inc-
DonDeeHippy wrote on May 12^th, 2018 at 4:42pm:

I guess setting up 3 Factories , one of then the biggist factory in the world, must cost money. who would think hey Lee  Wink Wink Wink I think u keep forgetting the 450,000 pre orders for just one product, they would be mad not to spend every cent for more expanding, ohh and production looks to double this year over last. if they made no profit and didn't expand id be very worried.

The capital account is a separate issue. Capital is what is spent on factories etc. Profit is - selling price minus cost price.

lee wrote on May 12^th, 2018 at 5:17pm:

DonDeeHippy wrote on May 12th, 2018 at 4:42pm: Very true if they keep selling cars below the cost of Manufacture they will go broke. They sell cars with one of the highest profit margins of any car manufacturer though, about same as Porsche. Then why haven't they turned a profit yet? Earnings Per Share -     EPS % Chg (Last Qtr)     -152% Profit Margin     -14.3% https://research.investors.com/stock-quotes/nasdaq-tesla-inc-tsla.htm https://research.investors.com/stock-quotes/nasdaq-tesla-inc- DonDeeHippy wrote on May 12th, 2018 at 4:42pm: I guess setting up 3 Factories , one of then the biggist factory in the world, must cost money. who would think hey Lee  Wink Wink Wink I think u keep forgetting the 450,000 pre orders for just one product, they would be mad not to spend every cent for more expanding, ohh and production looks to double this year over last. if they made no profit and didn't expand id be very worried. The capital account is a separate issue. Capital is what is spent on factories etc. Profit is - selling price minus cost price.

The profit your quoting is the stock profit not the company profit.
;) ;) ;)

DonDeeHippy wrote on May 12^th, 2018 at 7:22pm:

The profit your quoting is the stock profit not the company profit.

Really? On what buy price is it based?

"Tesla’s financials are horrible and worsening even before massive competition begins arriving later this year."

https://seekingalpha.com/article/4170654-tesla-still-zero

"Period Ending:      Mar 31, 2018      Dec 31, 2017      Sep 30, 2017      Jun 30, 2017
Total Revenue      3408.75      3288.25      2984.68      2789.56
Gross Profit      456.53      438.79      449.14      666.62
Operating Income      -596.97      -598.14      -535.48      -240.92
Net Income      -709.55      -675.35      -619.38      -336.4"

In millions.

lee wrote on May 12^th, 2018 at 5:17pm:

DonDeeHippy wrote on May 12th, 2018 at 4:42pm: Very true if they keep selling cars below the cost of Manufacture they will go broke. They sell cars with one of the highest profit margins of any car manufacturer though, about same as Porsche. Then why haven't they turned a profit yet? Earnings Per Share -     EPS % Chg (Last Qtr)     -152% Profit Margin     -14.3% https://research.investors.com/stock-quotes/nasdaq-tesla-inc-tsla.htm https://research.investors.com/stock-quotes/nasdaq-tesla-inc- DonDeeHippy wrote on May 12th, 2018 at 4:42pm: I guess setting up 3 Factories , one of then the biggist factory in the world, must cost money. who would think hey Lee  Wink Wink Wink I think u keep forgetting the 450,000 pre orders for just one product, they would be mad not to spend every cent for more expanding, ohh and production looks to double this year over last. if they made no profit and didn't expand id be very worried. The capital account is a separate issue. Capital is what is spent on factories etc. Profit is - selling price minus cost price.

When you tell us why GMC filed for bankruptcy and had to be bailed out by the Obama government because they were making fossil fool cars everyone wanted right ? :D LOL

Sir lastnail wrote on May 13^th, 2018 at 5:28pm:

When you tell us why GMC filed for bankruptcy and had to be bailed out by the Obama government because they were making fossil fool cars everyone wanted right ?

Why would I need to do that? From your statements you know everything.

But a quick check seems Obama's role is not as much as claimed.

"Aaron Bragman, the lead American automotive analyst for the financial forecasting group IHS Automotive, echoed the point. "The Bush administration is the one that actually acted to save them from an uncontrolled bankruptcy and shutdown," Bragman said. "The Obama administration's role was to fix them.""

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2012/sep/06/did-obama-save-us-automobile-industry/

Do you understand the difference between Chapter 11 bankruptcy and outright bankruptcy?

lee wrote on May 13^th, 2018 at 5:58pm:

Sir lastnail wrote on May 13th, 2018 at 5:28pm: When you tell us why GMC filed for bankruptcy and had to be bailed out by the Obama government because they were making fossil fool cars everyone wanted right ? Why would I need to do that? From your statements you know everything. But a quick check seems Obama's role is not as much as claimed. "Aaron Bragman, the lead American automotive analyst for the financial forecasting group IHS Automotive, echoed the point. "The Bush administration is the one that actually acted to save them from an uncontrolled bankruptcy and shutdown," Bragman said. "The Obama administration's role was to fix them."" http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2012/sep/06/did-obama-save-us-automobile-industry/ Do you understand the difference between Chapter 11 bankruptcy and outright bankruptcy?

If a fossil fool car is bad then no comments from you.

If a fossil fool car causes an accident then no comments from you.

If a fossil fool car company is bad then no comments from you.

If a fossil fool car is uber expensive then no comments from you.

However replace fossil fool with EV in the above statements and then all of a sudden plenty of negative comments from you. Funny about that ;)

Also note that GMC brought on their own demise when they trashed their own EV product in favour of making Hummers that nobody really wanted.

https://images.cdn.circlesix.co/image/1/700/0/uploads/posts/2015/12/d3675ae3dd3254a69958726b8f5f4f3c.jpg

Sir lastnail wrote on May 13^th, 2018 at 8:12pm:

If a fossil fool car is bad then no comments from you. If a fossil fool car causes an accident then no comments from you. If a fossil fool car company is bad then no comments from you. If a fossil fool car is uber expensive then no comments from you.

If an EV car is bad - no comment from you.

If an EV causes an accident - no comment from you.

If an EV company is bad - no comment from you.

If an EV car is uber expensive  - no comment from you.

;)

lee wrote on May 13^th, 2018 at 8:19pm:

Sir lastnail wrote on May 13th, 2018 at 8:12pm: If a fossil fool car is bad then no comments from you. If a fossil fool car causes an accident then no comments from you. If a fossil fool car company is bad then no comments from you. If a fossil fool car is uber expensive then no comments from you. If an EV car is bad - no comment from you. If an EV causes an accident - no comment from you. If an EV company is bad - no comment from you. If an EV car is uber expensive  - no comment from you. ;)

All based on false premises so there would be no comments from me ;)

Sir lastnail wrote on May 13^th, 2018 at 8:23pm:

All based on false premises so there would be no comments from me

Nope. Just as biased.

lee wrote on May 13^th, 2018 at 8:31pm:

Sir lastnail wrote on May 13th, 2018 at 8:23pm: All based on false premises so there would be no comments from me Nope. Just as biased.

well it's either ruin the planet and everyone's lives with your oil crap or put up with some accidents which are no more likely to occur on EV's as they are on fossil fool clunkers. Which is it to be ?

Should be a no-brainer but then I don't expect you lot to have any brains. Just set fire to everything as long as their is some printed paper money to be gotten out of the deal :(

The climatically confused globally warmed technically obtuse totally impractical LostSnail shows why NOBODY ever pays any attention to the warped waffle he posts.

Sir lastnail wrote on May 13^th, 2018 at 9:57pm:

well it's either ruin the planet and everyone's lives with your oil crap or put up with some accidents which are no more likely to occur on EV's as they are on fossil fool clunkers. Which is it to be ? Should be a no-brainer but then I don't expect you lot to have any brains. Just set fire to everything as long as their is some printed paper money to be gotten out of the deal Sad

That's what we like to see a reasoned argument. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

God help anyone who bought Tesla shares!!!!


Christian Kunert, works at Massachusetts General Hospital
Updated Feb 20
Tesla has two problems:
They never made any profit and they have never figured out production.

From the numbers that are around, Tesla has $3,6 Billion in cash but spent $1 Billion last quarter. This means they will run out of money within one year, unless they manage to turn around and actually make a profit or raise more money.

What is alarming, is that Tesla decided to go for the later. The announcement of the roadster is mainly t attract more investors what means Tesla itself does not expect to make a profit next year.

What is alarming to me is that they still seem to have n grasp of why they are in “production hell”. For me it is an American problem in general but a silicon valley problem more so. So let me explain:

Americans forgot how hard it is to make things on large scales and they don’t have the infrastructure to do so. Mercedes is spending half of their R&D budged for the new S-class on the manufacturing process. This is there most advanced car but it is made in their oldest factory with their most experienced workers. They have well established relationships with their suppliers and they sit in the middle of a huge network of suppliers.

Tesla has none of this. They have no relationship with suppliers, they build a factory in the dessert and there is no other industry around with whom they can share infrastructure. When you build a prototype (or in small badges) Your process is not likely to be sensitive to supply problems. But when you want to build 1000 vehicles a day all kind of problems can occur. Now silicon valley is obsessed with “the next big thing” but they don’t care about: We managed to reduce production cost by 2% and they don’t want to solve problems that have been solved already and all of Tesla’s problems have been solved by other car companies. However someone needs to solve those problems for Tesla, and I think Musk underestimated the challenge and so did the investors.

They already bought Grohmann to do so and they can do it but they have to stop lying to themselves. And beside the cult, at one point in time Tesla needs to make money.



Joe Troise, Writer & Publisher
Answered Nov 23
Tesla has a lot of money so it’s more a matter of predicting how fast they are burning it. I’d imagine pretty fast, and they don’t seem to be making any profits.

But Tesla is also a “story stock”—people buy the story, not the financial data. If they judged the stock on the data, they wouldn’t go near it, or they’d view it as extremely high risk.

There are quite a few savvy investors who are shorting Tesla, so maybe they know something we don’t.

I’d say from my experience in the car biz, that if they don’t start making money on the Model 3, (apparently not making any on the S) and meeting production deadlines,(already bogged down) and ramping up sales and quality control as well, then Tesla is going to be defunct pretty soon.

Personally I have no idea why Musk is even in the car business. It is so incredibly capital-intensive, with so little profit margin, that one has to look back at Tucker, Kaiser, Delorean, Bricklin, Crosley and all the rest that failed for that same reason.

Rob Pridham, BSc Hons Software Engineering, University of Manchester (2006)
Updated May 12, 2017

First, the share price. Let’s look at some market valuations.

Toyota: $188bn

Volkswagen (group): $93bn

Honda: $54bn

Fiat Chrysler: $14bn

Tesla: $42bn

Really? Objectively? Three times FCA, and half VW, for a company that produces 80,000 cars a year? VW build about ten million vehicles a year.

Blah blah blah, so negative. In the future they will be making loads of cars, loads of money! It will all scale up and so will profit!

So here’s the next problem. Volume manufacturing of cars is hard. Apple and Google aren’t going to be making their own cars in their own factories any time soon because of this. All the established majors are having recall issues of their own, but their quality is generally good, and it’s already scaled up. Now TSLA have a fair headstart here because electric vehicles are mechanically simpler in a variety of ways. But you can’t escape the fundamentals - getting quality right at those numbers is difficult, especially so when you’re starting from nothing.

Also: scaling up electric cars is hard. Maybe in the suburban US, you can accommodate a Tesla in your life and on your driveway tomorrow, but in cities and in typical Europe, where do you charge it overnight? On the street? So you need ubiquitous infrastructure. Noone’s going to be keen to build that until electric cars are ubiquitous. Chicken and egg.

OK, but the product is good, and it’s different. They have the march on everyone else. Yep, all true. But: what’s the barrier to competitor entry? What stops the supposed dinosaurs of the industry building competitive electric cars once Tesla establish the demand?

Battery tech? Well, they come from Panasonic. Existing infrastructure? It’s a start but it’s very limited. IP? They famously gave away a bunch of that. Unique tech? Mmhmm, and how long until that holds out against the systems providers (Bosch et al) that provide to all vehicle manufacturers as almost a commodity?

I like Tesla. I think they’re doing something very valuable and it ought to be celebrated. But I also think it’s almost a philanthropic effort to improve the world at the expense of the people providing the funding, the sort of thing that used to be done by governments rather than capitalists. And most of all, I think that once the excitement fades, there will be some difficult economic and strategic realities to face.

Update, 11th May 2017

This is by far and away the most viewed answer I’ve written, and it’s been getting lots of feedback, positive and negative. I’ll try to deal with some of that. Meanwhile, Tesla has gone from $42bn to $54bn since I wrote this answer. Hey, I never said it was going to resolve itself quickly. In fact I’ve had much the same opinion since it was $90 a share.

The strongest contrarian theme in the comments is that Tesla aren’t (just) a car company, they’re a battery or energy company. Well, yes and no. The Gigafactory is currently even less tangible than the car production. Imagine Tesla without the cars. What is it, and what is it worth? Who does it sell to? Probably not anything remotely like $54bn. More importantly, even if you consider it to be this other energy-centric beast, many of the points in the original answer remain problematic.

There is more of a place in the car industry and elsewhere for a cross-market supplier than there is for yet another company selling branded cars. That is, it’s arguably better to be selling engines or systems or batteries or whatever to all auto manufacturers than it is to be a full auto manufacturer yourself. This is at the core of the manifesto put out by FCA CEO Sergio Marchionne entitled, ‘Confessions of a Capital Junkie’ - that the industry must share costs through reuse. So a massive battery vendor has a strong play somewhere in the future. The trouble is the ‘in the future’ bit, and how long you can afford to wait before you’re simply premature, as well as the lack of clarity as to whether Tesla want to play this much less exciting role. And it’s still not $54bn any time soon.

Someone below the line summed it up best, I think - they said, it’s a Silicon Valley valuation, not a Wall Street one. I think that’s a very difficult position to maintain once you emerge from incubation and intangibles into a mature manufacturing and supply company.

lee wrote on May 13^th, 2018 at 10:05pm:

Sir lastnail wrote on May 13th, 2018 at 9:57pm: well it's either ruin the planet and everyone's lives with your oil crap or put up with some accidents which are no more likely to occur on EV's as they are on fossil fool clunkers. Which is it to be ? Should be a no-brainer but then I don't expect you lot to have any brains. Just set fire to everything as long as their is some printed paper money to be gotten out of the deal Sad That's what we like to see a reasoned argument. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

is it not true ? Everything you believe in can be traced back to hoarding printed dollar bills with no intrinsic value ? In other words you are willing to wreck the planet in exchange for worthless bits of paper ?

LostSnail posted something that nobody bothers to look at.

But back to reality that is something of a rarity in the vacant space between LostSnail's ears.

You'd have to be a geek or like self punishment to waste money on an obsolete fire bomb Tesla. Note if the Tesla goes into water the lithium batteries will catch fire!!!!

No surprise Teslas are already considered obsolete here in Australia especially away from the cities.



Joe Troise, Writer & Publisher
Answered Dec 1
Well, obviously a few things come to mind.

The cost. You’ll never get a payoff in fuel savings or maintenance savings to justify $100K investment vs. a $30K Prius, especially taking into account depreciation, finance costs as well.

Even on a $50K Model 3 (yes, that’s what you’ll pay for the extended range version and with the option you will invariably want), for the first 5–6 years your savings might amount to $1000 a year at best.

The inconvenience of having to charge the car at perhaps inopportune times, at charging stations that might be occupied for a time.

The crowded Tesla service facilities, should you have to bring your car in.

The possible huge expense of repairs after warranty, especially for Model 3 owners, since the warranty will be much more limited. No one even KNOWS what it costs to replace motors on a Model S for instance. (Answer: A lot).

The environmental impact that you might contribute to by encouraging a vast increase in the mining of copper, lithium and cobalt in countries that have very poor worker benefits or environmental safeguards.

You might end up as guilty as the neighbor demanding oil drilling in the wilderness—or even worse
the distinct possibility that you may be driving an expensive orphan of a car, should Tesla go bankrupt. with few people to fix it.

Now please Tesla jihadists don’t get mad at me—-the question was about disadvantages. not benefits.

Sir lastnail wrote on May 13^th, 2018 at 10:44pm:

is it not true ? Everything you believe in can be traced back to hoarding printed dollar bills with no intrinsic value ? In other words you are willing to wreck the planet in exchange for worthless bits of paper ?

You are projecting. You don't know me. ;)

So no: It is not true.

You would rather we did exchanges in sea shells?

juliar wrote on May 13^th, 2018 at 10:24pm:

God help anyone who bought Tesla shares!!!! Christian Kunert, works at Massachusetts General Hospital Updated Feb 20 Tesla has two problems: They never made any profit and they have never figured out production. From the numbers that are around, Tesla has $3,6 Billion in cash but spent $1 Billion last quarter. This means they will run out of money within one year, unless they manage to turn around and actually make a profit or raise more money. What is alarming, is that Tesla decided to go for the later. The announcement of the roadster is mainly t attract more investors what means Tesla itself does not expect to make a profit next year. What is alarming to me is that they still seem to have n grasp of why they are in “production hell”. For me it is an American problem in general but a silicon valley problem more so. So let me explain: Americans forgot how hard it is to make things on large scales and they don’t have the infrastructure to do so. Mercedes is spending half of their R&D budged for the new S-class on the manufacturing process. This is there most advanced car but it is made in their oldest factory with their most experienced workers. They have well established relationships with their suppliers and they sit in the middle of a huge network of suppliers. Tesla has none of this. They have no relationship with suppliers, they build a factory in the dessert and there is no other industry around with whom they can share infrastructure. When you build a prototype (or in small badges) Your process is not likely to be sensitive to supply problems. But when you want to build 1000 vehicles a day all kind of problems can occur. Now silicon valley is obsessed with “the next big thing” but they don’t care about: We managed to reduce production cost by 2% and they don’t want to solve problems that have been solved already and all of Tesla’s problems have been solved by other car companies. However someone needs to solve those problems for Tesla, and I think Musk underestimated the challenge and so did the investors. They already bought Grohmann to do so and they can do it but they have to stop lying to themselves. And beside the cult, at one point in time Tesla needs to make money. Joe Troise, Writer & Publisher Answered Nov 23 Tesla has a lot of money so it’s more a matter of predicting how fast they are burning it. I’d imagine pretty fast, and they don’t seem to be making any profits. But Tesla is also a “story stock”—people buy the story, not the financial data. If they judged the stock on the data, they wouldn’t go near it, or they’d view it as extremely high risk. There are quite a few savvy investors who are shorting Tesla, so maybe they know something we don’t. I’d say from my experience in the car biz, that if they don’t start making money on the Model 3, (apparently not making any on the S) and meeting production deadlines,(already bogged down) and ramping up sales and quality control as well, then Tesla is going to be defunct pretty soon. Personally I have no idea why Musk is even in the car business. It is so incredibly capital-intensive, with so little profit margin, that one has to look back at Tucker, Kaiser, Delorean, Bricklin, Crosley and all the rest that failed for that same reason.

Hey socko just in case you and your sidekick missed it, here it is again. For the sake of a 57 cent switch GM was willing to murder people with its fossil fool clunkers. Had to save money because of the shareholders greed and spending all of that money on the clunker engine and its overly complicated transmission which meant no money left for anything else. Not even a 57 cent switch which could have saved lives :(


Quote:

It was a deadly defect in an ignition switch that led to the recall of millions of GM cars like the Cobalt and the Ion and the confirmed deaths of almost 30 drivers, with close to 200 more being investigated. Bob McKeown investigates what and when did GM and Transport Canada know about the problem -- and reveals startlingly new information about fatal crashes in Canada.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pwt1Dc2XD6Q&t=120s

lee wrote on May 13^th, 2018 at 11:18pm:

Sir lastnail wrote on May 13th, 2018 at 10:44pm: is it not true ? Everything you believe in can be traced back to hoarding printed dollar bills with no intrinsic value ? In other words you are willing to wreck the planet in exchange for worthless bits of paper ? You are projecting. You don't know me. ;) So no: It is not true. You would rather we did exchanges in sea shells?

or a figure contained in a bank computer database which also represents an amount of printed dollar bills with no intrinsic value ?? Is it not true you would wreck the planet because of this ? History is sure to treat you and you ilk quite harshly.

Frustrated normally ignored LostSnail is pumping the "posts".

Shows tremendous intelligence in copying another post and adding a bit of dribble.

But with enormous relief to get away from the humdrum of LostSnail and onto something actually factual and interesting.


Daniel Drummond
Answered Aug 3, 2017
The problem with any electric car, is that you cannot depend on it in a weather disaster. In 2005, for example, Houston suffered a hurricane, and some parts of town were out of power for weeks.

Some of my neighbors had electric cars. They ran out of charge quickly and became useless. Gas-powered cars had a dependability that was invisible until electricity was unavailable.

Also, I have yet to see an electric vehicle which is powerful enough to tow stalled cars, or which can handle high water areas, for that matter potholes. They are wonderful in optimal conditions … but you don’t always have optimal conditions.



Alberto Formenti, System Engeneer specialized in Microsoft Collaboration
Answered Jul 12, 2017
Well I’m definitely a big fan of fuel cell, and I think that Hydrogen fuel cell electric cars are the only true solution for the future. So I’m pretty skeptical about all battery powered cars…

It will indeed be a relief when hydrogen cars finally make all electric obsolete (for the 2nd time).


Do electric cars cause cancer?
Federico A. Nazar, Prof. Updated Jan 7

“Without fail many malformations will be found on birds who had been living in the nest on the electrical transformer.”
Source: Mitch Rezman's answer to Do power lines affect the health of birds, when they perch on them?

Do you still want to sit on top of a carcinogenic power line many hours per day/week?

https://s31.postimg.cc/6winhfsmj/main-qimg-5c408769d9a8e9bf355216c6dae6e08e-c.jpg


The carcinogenic effect of Electro-Magnetic Fields (EMFs) is related to:

Power: car engines must move near 1 ton (1000 kg, 2000 pounds), not a small household appliance.
Distance: damage decreases with the square of the distance (1/d2). That’s the reason in most countries you cannot build near high tension power lines (at least 100 meters/ 300 feet).

In an e-car, you are sitting right next to the engine/s and on top of a high voltage electric power line!

Insulation: it is possible to create shields (like the one on the door of your microwave oven) but they don’t eliminate EMFs, only reduce them. The fact that e-cars don’t have such a protection, makes us wonder if they are not effective considering the previous points or maybe the industry doesn’t want to
a) increase costs even if it costs your life or
b) raise consumer awareness on this issue, which could kill the industry.

Think about it: laptops do not comply with the guidelines from the World Health Organization… the recommendation is to place a metal layer beneath it to reduce the proven high carcinogenic effect.

Exposure: the time you spend near injuring EMFs is crucial. It is not the same if you drive 2 hours a day or if you are a professional driver of an e-bus or e-train, just as it is not the same to play the Russian roulette one time or a thousand times: you could get killed at the first time or never but epidemically, it will eventually show up.


Conclusions

Beg your politician to:

a) stop regulations artificially killing the combustion engine and

b) avoid promoting e-buses and e-cars and e-trams and e-trains

Epidemically, fuel combustion cars (f-cars) are the lesser evil. They generate carcinogenic fumes but they dissipate in the air, unless you live in terribly enclosed cities without winds like Santiago of Chile. Still, you are not directly injuring the passengers like with e-cars.

Just for YouLiar:

https://medium.com/@elanf/on-the-tesla-model-3-6b5acabd8ff5

Sir lastnail wrote on May 13^th, 2018 at 11:34pm:

or a figure contained in a bank computer database which also represents an amount of printed dollar bills with no intrinsic value ?? Is it not true you would wreck the planet because of this ? History is sure to treat you and you ilk quite harshly.

Still talking sh!t.

Now that we have established you would indeed use sea shells as a means of exchange; when the corn supplier says "I don't want shells; I want a knapped flint axe"; you would need to go through an intermediary who would hopefully settle a three way deal, depending on the days prices. Three sheep for one cow? Damn, sounds like we are getting back to a "stock" exchange. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

lee wrote on May 14^th, 2018 at 11:29am:

Sir lastnail wrote on May 13th, 2018 at 11:34pm: or a figure contained in a bank computer database which also represents an amount of printed dollar bills with no intrinsic value ?? Is it not true you would wreck the planet because of this ? History is sure to treat you and you ilk quite harshly. Still talking sh!t. Now that we have established you would indeed use sea shells as a means of exchange; when the corn supplier says "I don't want shells; I want a knapped flint axe"; you would need to go through an intermediary who would hopefully settle a three way deal, depending on the days prices. Three sheep for one cow? Damn, sounds like we are getting back to a "stock" exchange. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

So when the Federal Reserve banks prints its money you know they worked very hard for it don't you :D LOL

juliar wrote on May 14^th, 2018 at 4:37am:

It will indeed be a relief when hydrogen cars finally make all electric obsolete (for the 2nd time).

And especially when an electric truck company will be producing their own hydrogen and not buying any from your greedy mates :D LOL

juliar wrote on May 14^th, 2018 at 4:37am:

Do you still want to sit on top of a carcinogenic power line many hours per day/week?

As opposed to a carcinogenic tailpipe emitting noxious gasses that we all breath in :(

Give it a break socko. Now you are really scraping the bottom of the barrel with this cut and paste crap. :D LOL

Jovial Monk wrote on May 14^th, 2018 at 10:25am:

Just for YouLiar: https://medium.com/@elanf/on-the-tesla-model-3-6b5acabd8ff5

Hey socko did you read this ?? Tesla can't keep up with demand of its new Tesla Model 3. Unlike Holden and Ford which had to close its doors making old oily stuff nobody wanted.

Clunk, clunk, clunk, clunkety, clunk...clunk...burp...fart.... :D LOL

LostSnail has become hysterical pumping out mindless dribble like it was going out of style. What a waste of space.

Usual nonsense from the Lib stooge idiot Juliar!

Sir lastnail wrote on May 14^th, 2018 at 1:04pm:

So when the Federal Reserve banks prints its money you know they worked very hard for it don't you

You really believe a centralised common currency is bad?

You are getting more stupid.

Is that possible ?

Sir lastnail wrote on May 14^th, 2018 at 1:12pm:

Tesla can't keep up with demand of its new Tesla Model 3.

"Over the last few weeks, Tesla CEO Elon Musk has been showing a lot of confidence about fixing the problems that have created delays in the automaker’s Model 3 production ramp up.

The latest solution is apparently a hackathon to fix two problematic robot bottlenecks in the Model 3 production process.

Tesla originally planned for the Model 3 production to be the most automated production car program in the industry, but now Musk has admitted that they made some mistakes with the automation effort."

https://electrek.co/2018/05/13/tesla-hackathon-robots-model-3-production/

That wouldn't seem something to boast about. ;)

Why you would have to be masochistic to lumber yourself with an electric heap.


Damiano Celent
Answered Jun 27, 2017
Oh yes, there are many who regret buying a Tesla, you need to look no further than the Tesla forums where the people are not totally brainwashed(anymore), and people who actually bought the cars, not some fanboys who have drunken the Musk-Aide and will never get a Tesla.

There are many reasons, here is a best of collection, or rather, the hall of shame:

Service centers too far away and not answering calls, parts not available, cars in shops for weeks, sometimes without resolutions
Doors not opening when the car is exposed to sunny and hot weather
AP1 does not get upgrades, it never will , AP2 is not even on par with AP1 yet, will never be.
Drive train failures
Some cars cannot be charged, CPU replacement does not work
Wheels falling off
Auto Pilot is a beta software, do you know what a beta software is? An unfinished product.
Battery unprotected on uneven roads, they sometimes wanna charge up to 45k usd to replace this
Lying and over promising sales people and staff
Wheels falling off, literally, totalling the cars in the process
Leaking windows
There are many more and the 91% happy customers is a total BS number, have a look at this link and tell me if that is 91% happy customers.


Michael of Los Angeles, CA Verified Reviewer
Original review: April 11, 2018
My wife and I ordered a Tesla Model X a couple months ago. Originally, the expected delivery date wasn’t until May ‘18 but to my surprise I received a call from them in early March saying my car was ready and asked that we pick it up by March 31, which not coincidentally is the last day of their fiscal quarter. From the very first day (mind you this was 1.5 weeks ago) we were having problems with the car from a strange rattling sound emanating from the vehicle and the sound of wind as we drove suggesting the doors weren’t properly screwed on. We obviously were disappointed that we were having problems from the get-go on a brand new very expensive car but it shouldn’t be a surprise given the reviews I’m now reading online and my friend’s own disastrous experience with the Model X (steering problems, inability to turn the vehicle on and gullwing door malfunction to name a few).

We were particularly worried whether the car was unsafe given I have a newborn (3-weeks old) and a 2 year old toddler that rides in the car with us. So when we took the car to the shop last week we were particularly shocked when the technician thought we may have a suspension problem given the noise... FYI I still don’t know what the actual problem is. After thinking for a bit, it sort of doesn’t surprise me. You see, I follow Tesla’s stock (and thus the company) so I know that given the company’s cash burn, inability to make Wall Street numbers, recent death of a Model X owner, etc. that the company was feeling the pressure to make consensus estimates for deliveries.

Press reports suggested a big push at the end of the quarter to “hit numbers” and what I suspect happened is that the quality control during production went down in the pursuit of pumping out car deliveries by the end of the quarter. My guess is I’m not the only one that was delivered a flawed Tesla vehicle. I just hope that safety wasn’t compromised in the process... After spending hours of our time dealing with Tesla, I would have to say the customer service sucks. They try to appease you by sounding nice but no one I spoke to wanted to take any responsibility and took multiple of the same conversation with different employees who just passed me onto another employee. Needless to say, this was a highly disappointing purchase from the get-go.


Vinod of Neasden, Other Verified Reviewer  Verified Buyer
Original review: March 29, 2018 I have owned a Model S for just over a year, recently the ball joint broke on the front right hand wheel, Tesla were very quick to deny liability stating that the car must have been in a collision and that was the cause. Furthermore they sent me an estimate from one of their preferred body shops for just under £8000
Really!!! I'm no mechanic but that's a lot of money for a ball joint. Tesla seem to be selling a lot of cars but are lacking customer service. Great to drive but make sure you don't take it out of its comfort zone. Won't be buying another one of those in a hurry.


Eugene of San Francisco, CA Verified Reviewer  Verified Buyer
Original review: Nov. 21, 2017
In 2016 my Tesla Model S delivered with paint defect (front hood), missing side panel, only the latter was addressed at delivery but the former requires full repainting of hood. Noted in delivery but was asked for accept delivery as-is. During 2017, multiple door seams started coming off from the sides and had to be repaired in the shop. While it was being repaired as part of the first annual service, service center staff damaged front side door leather panel (scratched and cut) and left dried glue on the back body.

And the self punishment continues.


Aruna of Mclean, VA Verified Reviewer
Original review: Oct. 29, 2017
Bought in May 2017 --- in shop for creaky motors, trunk does not open properly, creaks when braking. It was in the shop for all these reasons just a couple of months after purchase. When it came back, the trunk still did not open properly, the creaking lessened to a loud wheeze and then a new problem - the sensors in the doors are not ready for market - they are not smart - just robotic - so if I had something blocking me in spot A today, it sees spot A as someplace it won't open -- stupid application of what was originally a smart idea. The manual override works but not all the time. The creaky motor and the rest of the experiment that is Model X made me wonder if I had bought a LEMON for all of $125 K. I realized we had when I had my first experience of what is known as "Sudden Unintended Acceleration" as I was slowing to a halt very nonchalantly at a signal.

The car SUDDENLY accelerated to a spooky pace and crashed into the Toyota truck in front. There was less than a car length between the 2 cars and the acceleration while dangerous resulted in a collision and nonlife threatening injuries. Tesla of course denies anything wrong with the car. They obviously can't admit anything wrong with their experiment. Both my husband and I have changed our cars. We both had Teslas. Mine is in the shop but we don't plan to get behind that wheel again. We may buy an electric car when it is tried and tested by a real car manufacturer and the technology is set in. No one wants to be in a car that just accelerates on its own. My first accident and it is NOT of my doing. Where are the institutions that are supposed to insist on better quality control and testing! I want my money back. I was sold a LEMON and this car is a public menace. Drivers beware!


Manish of Visalia, CA Verified Reviewer
Original review: Oct. 28, 2017
Bought my Tesla S on September 30th 2017. Have not driven it much since I got it. Had problems installing my charger. So drive it for 300 miles and noticed the passenger front door and back passenger door did not line up. Then the passenger door behind the driver side the door handle stayed in unlock position while in the drive mode. Kept on hearing a grinding noise. Noticed the door handle was popped open. When placed in park, the door just pops open. It happened like this more than once. Then water moisture built up between the two doors. I called service and no one responded until a week past. Then it was too late and drove it to where I bought the car. No service manager or store manager on duty. Dropped off my car and they called me in a day that the car was ready. Not happy with car. Still have to pick it up and inspect it.


Jean of Randolph, NJ Verified Reviewer
Original review: March 9, 2017
Model S - Prior to the purchase - I thought I had done all my homework. But after recently reading and viewing photos of some Tesla vehicles in minor accidents -- I now realize that the car is anything but durable as so many posters unknowingly here refer to it as. Durable means strong and long-lasting. What they don't know is that the chassis is made of Aluminum, which is very light weight compared to Steel, (outdoor painted aluminium will eventually fade) and when your vehicle hits or is hit by something, even a very minor rear-end tap may cause the liftgate, liftgate window, both rear panels and the bumper to crumple into an awesome mess, which is extremely costly to repair.

And since Tesla makes their own parts, and is busy making the parts to meet their new delivery numbers - a simple 1 month accident repair with another car -- can and does take up to 6 months for Tesla to supply the parts to their own authorized Body Shops; you can only use their authorized Body Shop. So now I'm more worried than the average person of becoming involved in an accident. And that takes all the fun of owning a Tesla.


Arif of Laguna Niguel, CA Verified Reviewer
Original review: Feb. 27, 2017
I have purchased a total of 4 Tesla's (3 Model S and 1 model X), after the first car the sales support has become a nightmare. They don't give a crap about fixing your problems. Example... 1 week after we got the Model X the window was leaking. We called them and they gave us a date 1 MONTH later to bring our car. After me talking to the management they finally moved the date.

I just bought a P100D 3 months ago, they messed up on the price of the Auto Pilot, 4 weeks after we took delivery they called and informed me that I owed them money and if I don't pay it they will remotely remove the feature... which would be a safety issue. There was no remorse from any of their employees. I even talked with the District Manager. Their basic response was... "screw you. We don't care if you are a customer, pay the $ or we will shut off the feature." Mind you I paid them whatever they wanted at the time of delivery.

Also, we paid for the additional $8600 two weeks ago, we called them today to inquire why our number plates had not arrived and their answer "We did not submit your rego until you paid the extra $8600 for the auto pilot. WTF!!! I paid them over $120,000 and they held the rego hostage. These people are ** thugs. DON'T BUY A TESLA FROM COSTA MESA. THEY WILL SCREW YOU!!! These people are arrogant and treat you like CRAP once you buy the car. I WILL NEVER BUY A TESLA AGAIN!

Is Tesla a death trap ? Wonder what it costs to insure one of these ?


Police probe whether Autopilot feature was on in Tesla crash
By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS SOUTH JORDAN, Utah — May 13, 2018, 8:35 PM ET

VIDEO: Tesla car crash near Salt Lake City, Utah, is under investigation

Police are investigating whether a Tesla sedan's semi-autonomous Autopilot feature was engaged when it rear-ended a fire department truck in Utah.

The Tesla Model S crashed into the truck at 60 mph (97 kph) apparently without braking before impact, according to police in South Jordan, a suburb of Salt Lake City. The fire department mechanic truck had been stopped at a red light.

https://s31.postimg.cc/g96disv63/tesla.jpg
Slightly bent Tesla

The crash comes as federal safety agencies investigate the performance of Tesla's semi-autonomous driving system.


VIDEO: NTSB investigating Tesla crash, fire that killed 2 teens


VIDEO: NTSB investigating crash involving Tesla in Northern California

The Tesla's air bags were activated in the crash, South Jordan police Sgt. Samuel Winkler said. The Tesla's driver suffered a broken right ankle, and the driver of the Unified Fire Authority mechanic truck did not require treatment, Winkler said.

There was no indication the Tesla's driver was under the influence of any substance, and information on what the driver may have told investigators about the circumstances of the crash likely would not be available before Monday, Winkler said by telephone.

There was light rain falling and roads were wet when the crash occurred, police said in a statement.

"Witnesses indicated the Tesla Model S did not brake prior to impact," the statement said.

Tesla's Autopilot system uses cameras, radar and computers to keep speed, change lanes and automatically stop vehicles. The company, which is based in Palo Alto, California, and has a huge battery factory in the Reno, Nevada, area, tells drivers the system requires them to keep their eyes on the road and their hands on the wheel so they can take control to avoid accidents.

"Tesla has not yet received any data from the car and thus does not know the facts of what occurred, including whether Autopilot was engaged," a Tesla spokesperson said in a statement on Sunday.

News of the crash came as a top Tesla official who had been the main technical contact with U.S. safety investigators left the company to join rival Waymo.

Waymo, Google's self-driving car spinoff, confirmed that Matthew Schwall had joined the company.

Schwall had been Tesla's director of field performance engineering, according to his LinkedIn page, which said he served as Tesla's primary technical contact with safety regulatory agencies such as the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration and the National Transportation Safety Board.

There was no immediate comment from Tesla about Schwall.

Police said they had been in contact with the National Transportation Safety Board about the crash. NTSB spokesman Keith Holloway said he did not know whether the agency would get involved.

The NTSB and the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration are investigating at least two other crashes involving Tesla vehicles. In March, a Tesla Model X SUV crashed on a California highway, killing the driver, and investigators are looking into the performance of the semi-autonomous driving system in that crash.

https://abcnews.go.com/US/video/ntsb-investigating-crash-involving-tesla-northern-california-54054994

Hey socko just in case you and your sidekick missed it, here it is again. For the sake of a 57 cent switch GMC was willing to murder people with its fossil fool clunkers. Had to save money because of the shareholders greed and spending all of that money on the clunker engine and its overly complicated transmission which meant no money left over for anything else - not even a 57 cent switch which could have saved many lives :(


Quote:

It was a deadly defect in an ignition switch that led to the recall of millions of GM cars like the Cobalt and the Ion and the confirmed deaths of almost 30 drivers, with close to 200 more being investigated. Bob McKeown investigates what and when did GM and Transport Canada know about the problem -- and reveals startlingly new information about fatal crashes in Canada.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pwt1Dc2XD6Q&t=120s

Sir lastnail wrote on May 13^th, 2018 at 10:44pm:

Everything you believe in can be traced back to hoarding printed dollar bills with no intrinsic value ?

Lostnail, can you tell us a any currency that has intrinsic value?

lee wrote on May 15^th, 2018 at 12:28pm:

Sir lastnail wrote on May 13th, 2018 at 10:44pm: Everything you believe in can be traced back to hoarding printed dollar bills with no intrinsic value ? Lostnail, can you tell us a any currency that has intrinsic value?

The US currency did when it was backed by the gold standard now it's no more worth than confetti !

Sir lastnail wrote on May 15^th, 2018 at 12:41pm:

The US currency did when it was backed by the gold standard now it's no more worth than confetti !

Nope. Gold has no intrinsic value. It only has value others put on it.

That makes it extrinsic.

lee wrote on May 15^th, 2018 at 1:18pm:

Sir lastnail wrote on May 15th, 2018 at 12:41pm: The US currency did when it was backed by the gold standard now it's no more worth than confetti ! Nope. Gold has no intrinsic value. It only has value others put on it. That makes it extrinsic.

It has value because it is rare whereas paper is not !

Sir lastnail wrote on May 15^th, 2018 at 1:37pm:

It has value because it is rare whereas paper is not !

Yes. It has a value others put on it as I said.

You ever wonder why gold price fluctuates? That is people deciding to buy gold or not.

As there is interest in cars on this thread.

Question

A$0.396 per litre on unleaded petrol fuel plus another 10% GST

Is this the right amount of tax we are paying for fuel,,, all to the Feds.

If electric cars are having trouble competing with petrol cars, while petrol cars have a huge tax handicap.

How will they compete on equal terms?

Supplementary question that must follow,,,, where will the tax come from when there is no petrol tax?

I doubt the government will introduce taxes on electric cars until we have converted to them in a big way,,,,, or they will have to up the petrol tax even more or legislate against petrol cars.

lee wrote on May 15^th, 2018 at 1:42pm:

Sir lastnail wrote on May 15th, 2018 at 1:37pm: It has value because it is rare whereas paper is not ! Yes. It has a value others put on it as I said. You ever wonder why gold price fluctuates? That is people deciding to buy gold or not.

so if it's not valuable why did they get rid of the gold standard ?

Sir lastnail wrote on May 15^th, 2018 at 2:06pm:

so if it's not valuable why did they get rid of the gold standard ?

I didn't say it wasn't valuable.

Yes; Gold has value. It is the value put on it by people.

Therefore its value in not intrinsic.

miketrees wrote on May 15^th, 2018 at 1:48pm:

As there is interest in cars on this thread. Question A$0.396 per litre on unleaded petrol fuel plus another 10% GST Is this the right amount of tax we are paying for fuel,,, all to the Feds. If electric cars are having trouble competing with petrol cars, while petrol cars have a huge tax handicap. How will they compete on equal terms? Supplementary question that must follow,,,, where will the tax come from when there is no petrol tax? I doubt the government will introduce taxes on electric cars until we have converted to them in a big way,,,,, or they will have to up the petrol tax even more or legislate against petrol cars.

They will tax you on distance travelled. Electric cars are having trouble competing with petrol cars because the traditional fossil fool car manufacturers refuse to make them or make them for a reasonable price and Tesla only caters for the hi-end car purchaser.

It wouldn't take much for Toyota to add plugin capacity to its hybrid cars but refuses to do so.

It wouldn't take much for Toyota to add plugin capacity to its hybrid cars but refuses to do so.

Logic tells me that there must be a explanation, economic or engineering for this.

juliar wrote on May 14^th, 2018 at 4:37am:

It will indeed be a relief when hydrogen cars finally make all electric obsolete (for the 2nd time). Do electric cars cause cancer? Federico A. Nazar, Prof. Updated Jan 7 “Without fail many malformations will be found on birds who had been living in the nest on the electrical transformer.” Source: Mitch Rezman's answer to Do power lines affect the health of birds, when they perch on them? Do you still want to sit on top of a carcinogenic power line many hours per day/week? https://s31.postimg.cc/6winhfsmj/main-qimg-5c408769d9a8e9bf355216c6dae6e08e-c.jpg The carcinogenic effect of Electro-Magnetic Fields (EMFs) is related to: Power: car engines must move near 1 ton (1000 kg, 2000 pounds), not a small household appliance. Distance: damage decreases with the square of the distance (1/d2). That’s the reason in most countries you cannot build near high tension power lines (at least 100 meters/ 300 feet). In an e-car, you are sitting right next to the engine/s and on top of a high voltage electric power line! Insulation: it is possible to create shields (like the one on the door of your microwave oven) but they don’t eliminate EMFs, only reduce them. The fact that e-cars don’t have such a protection, makes us wonder if they are not effective considering the previous points or maybe the industry doesn’t want to a) increase costs even if it costs your life or b) raise consumer awareness on this issue, which could kill the industry. Think about it: laptops do not comply with the guidelines from the World Health Organization… the recommendation is to place a metal layer beneath it to reduce the proven high carcinogenic effect. Exposure: the time you spend near injuring EMFs is crucial. It is not the same if you drive 2 hours a day or if you are a professional driver of an e-bus or e-train, just as it is not the same to play the Russian roulette one time or a thousand times: you could get killed at the first time or never but epidemically, it will eventually show up. Conclusions Beg your politician to: a) stop regulations artificially killing the combustion engine and b) avoid promoting e-buses and e-cars and e-trams and e-trains Epidemically, fuel combustion cars (f-cars) are the lesser evil. They generate carcinogenic fumes but they dissipate in the air, unless you live in terribly enclosed cities without winds like Santiago of Chile. Still, you are not directly injuring the passengers like with e-cars.

All this would be good if it was true
https://www.sintef.no/en/latest-news/no-danger-from-magnetic-fields-in-electric-cars/
This shows electric, fuel cell and combustion’s cars have the same magnetic force, the biggest emf production is from the wheels spinning on a car, well the steel belt.
I love the bit at the end of this piece about lesser evils.

juliar wrote on May 14^th, 2018 at 4:28am:

Frustrated normally ignored LostSnail is pumping the "posts". Shows tremendous intelligence in copying another post and adding a bit of dribble. But with enormous relief to get away from the humdrum of LostSnail and onto something actually factual and interesting. Daniel Drummond Answered Aug 3, 2017 The problem with any electric car, is that you cannot depend on it in a weather disaster. In 2005, for example, Houston suffered a hurricane, and some parts of town were out of power for weeks. Some of my neighbors had electric cars. They ran out of charge quickly and became useless. Gas-powered cars had a dependability that was invisible until electricity was unavailable. Also, I have yet to see an electric vehicle which is powerful enough to tow stalled cars, or which can handle high water areas, for that matter potholes. They are wonderful in optimal conditions … but you don’t always have optimal conditions. Alberto Formenti, System Engeneer specialized in Microsoft Collaboration Answered Jul 12, 2017 Well I’m definitely a big fan of fuel cell, and I think that Hydrogen fuel cell electric cars are the only true solution for the future. So I’m pretty skeptical about all battery powered cars…

With credentials like this he must know what he is talking about. :D :D :D :D

Once there were two weevils living in flour. One was a big weevil and the other a smaller weevil.

The baker came along a scooped up a bowl of flour. One of the weevils ended up being incorporated in a loaf of bread. it had slipped through the sieve.

It was all right though. It turned out to be the lesser of the two weevils.

juliar wrote on May 14^th, 2018 at 9:25pm:

Is Tesla a death trap ? Wonder what it costs to insure one of these ? Police probe whether Autopilot feature was on in Tesla crash By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS SOUTH JORDAN, Utah — May 13, 2018, 8:35 PM ET VIDEO: Tesla car crash near Salt Lake City, Utah, is under investigation Police are investigating whether a Tesla sedan's semi-autonomous Autopilot feature was engaged when it rear-ended a fire department truck in Utah. The Tesla Model S crashed into the truck at 60 mph (97 kph) apparently without braking before impact, according to police in South Jordan, a suburb of Salt Lake City. The fire department mechanic truck had been stopped at a red light. https://s31.postimg.cc/g96disv63/tesla.jpg Slightly bent Tesla The crash comes as federal safety agencies investigate the performance of Tesla's semi-autonomous driving system. VIDEO: NTSB investigating Tesla crash, fire that killed 2 teens VIDEO: NTSB investigating crash involving Tesla in Northern California The Tesla's air bags were activated in the crash, South Jordan police Sgt. Samuel Winkler said. The Tesla's driver suffered a broken right ankle, and the driver of the Unified Fire Authority mechanic truck did not require treatment, Winkler said. There was no indication the Tesla's driver was under the influence of any substance, and information on what the driver may have told investigators about the circumstances of the crash likely would not be available before Monday, Winkler said by telephone. There was light rain falling and roads were wet when the crash occurred, police said in a statement. "Witnesses indicated the Tesla Model S did not brake prior to impact," the statement said. Tesla's Autopilot system uses cameras, radar and computers to keep speed, change lanes and automatically stop vehicles. The company, which is based in Palo Alto, California, and has a huge battery factory in the Reno, Nevada, area, tells drivers the system requires them to keep their eyes on the road and their hands on the wheel so they can take control to avoid accidents. "Tesla has not yet received any data from the car and thus does not know the facts of what occurred, including whether Autopilot was engaged," a Tesla spokesperson said in a statement on Sunday. News of the crash came as a top Tesla official who had been the main technical contact with U.S. safety investigators left the company to join rival Waymo. Waymo, Google's self-driving car spinoff, confirmed that Matthew Schwall had joined the company. Schwall had been Tesla's director of field performance engineering, according to his LinkedIn page, which said he served as Tesla's primary technical contact with safety regulatory agencies such as the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration and the National Transportation Safety Board. There was no immediate comment from Tesla about Schwall. Police said they had been in contact with the National Transportation Safety Board about the crash. NTSB spokesman Keith Holloway said he did not know whether the agency would get involved. The NTSB and the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration are investigating at least two other crashes involving Tesla vehicles. In March, a Tesla Model X SUV crashed on a California highway, killing the driver, and investigators are looking into the performance of the semi-autonomous driving system in that crash. https://abcnews.go.com/US/video/ntsb-investigating-crash-involving-tesla-northern-california-54054994

Wow this car hit a stationary truck doing 100 kms an hour and the driver got a broken foot..... that is truly amazing, I can’t think on another car I’d like to be in a collision like that .
If the truck was stopped at a traffic light, why was the guy driving at 100 km anyway, he would of had to be speeding.
Luckily Tesla’s have a little black box and will be able to see what happened in a few days.

DonDeeHippy wrote on May 15^th, 2018 at 5:26pm:

Luckily Tesla’s have a little black box and will be able to see what happened in a few days.

Pity the little black box that was supposed to make an emergency stop didn't function.

miketrees wrote on May 15^th, 2018 at 3:56pm:

It wouldn't take much for Toyota to add plugin capacity to its hybrid cars but refuses to do so. Logic tells me that there must be a explanation, economic or engineering for this.

The Prius prime is a plug in hybrid, and selling like hot cakes around the world, not in Australia yet though.

lee wrote on May 15^th, 2018 at 5:29pm:

DonDeeHippy wrote on May 15th, 2018 at 5:26pm: Luckily Tesla’s have a little black box and will be able to see what happened in a few days. Pity the little black box that was supposed to make an emergency stop didn't function.

Don’t know it was even turned on yet lee, Tesla normally realease what happened about 2 weeks after a accident.

DonDeeHippy wrote on May 15^th, 2018 at 5:33pm:

Don’t know it was even turned on yet lee, Tesla normally realease what happened about 2 weeks after a accident.

DonDeeHippy wrote on May 15^th, 2018 at 5:26pm:

Tesla's Autopilot system uses cameras, radar and computers to keep speed, change lanes and automatically stop vehicles.

Yeah. Some journalists.

"Well, that was quick. Earlier this month, we reported that Tesla is adding automatic emergency braking to ‘Autopilot 2.5’ cars with a new update, but it was capped to 50 mph.

Tesla now started releasing a new software update to enable full speed automatic emergency braking for Autopilot 2.5 cars – along with other improvements."

https://electrek.co/2017/10/22/tesla-update-full-speed-automatic-emergency-braking-autopilot-2-5/
22 October 2017

lee wrote on May 15^th, 2018 at 5:46pm:

DonDeeHippy wrote on May 15th, 2018 at 5:33pm: Don’t know it was even turned on yet lee, Tesla normally realease what happened about 2 weeks after a accident. DonDeeHippy wrote on May 15th, 2018 at 5:26pm: Tesla's Autopilot system uses cameras, radar and computers to keep speed, change lanes and automatically stop vehicles. Yeah. Some journalists. "Well, that was quick. Earlier this month, we reported that Tesla is adding automatic emergency braking to ‘Autopilot 2.5’ cars with a new update, but it was capped to 50 mph. Tesla now started releasing a new software update to enable full speed automatic emergency braking for Autopilot 2.5 cars – along with other improvements." https://electrek.co/2017/10/22/tesla-update-full-speed-automatic-emergency-braking-autopilot-2-5/ 22 October 2017

It can be turned off and have features on or off as the driver wants. The journalists don’t know if it was on either.  ;) ;)
At a guess if he was doing 100 kms near a stop light, he would of had it off. ;)

DonDeeHippy wrote on May 15^th, 2018 at 5:49pm:

It can be turned off and have features on or off as the driver wants.

So much for Automatic Emergency Braking. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

"Automatic Emergency Braking is enabled by default.  You can temporarily disable this feature via the AUTOMATIC EMERGENCY BRAKING setting in Controls >Settings >Driver Assistance > COLLISION AVOIDANCE ASSIST. 
Automatic Emergency Braking will re-enable when you next drive"

https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/tesla_model_s_software_6_2.pdf

So he would have to change the settings each time he drove to override Automatic Emergency Braking.

lee wrote on May 15^th, 2018 at 6:00pm:

DonDeeHippy wrote on May 15th, 2018 at 5:49pm: It can be turned off and have features on or off as the driver wants. So much for Automatic Emergency Braking. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D "Automatic Emergency Braking is enabled by default.  You can temporarily disable this feature via the AUTOMATIC EMERGENCY BRAKING setting in Controls >Settings >Driver Assistance > COLLISION AVOIDANCE ASSIST.  Automatic Emergency Braking will re-enable when you next drive" https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/tesla_model_s_software_6_2.pdf So he would have to change the settings each time he drove to override Automatic Emergency Braking.

Well I guess in a few weeks we will know. ;) ;) ;)
And the only car manufacturer you would ever find out what happened.

DonDeeHippy wrote on May 15^th, 2018 at 6:11pm:

And the only car manufacturer you would ever find out what happened.

With an investigation by the transport board; I think not. ;)

lee wrote on May 15^th, 2018 at 6:19pm:

DonDeeHippy wrote on May 15th, 2018 at 6:11pm: And the only car manufacturer you would ever find out what happened. With an investigation by the transport board; I think not. ;)

Ohh so they r going to change , they have every other accident, but this one they r not..... :D :D
Wasn’t even fatal, what makes u think there will be a investigation  ;) ;)

DonDeeHippy wrote on May 15^th, 2018 at 6:28pm:

Ohh so they r going to change , they have every other accident, but this one they r not..... Cheesy Cheesy Wasn’t even fatal, what makes u think there will be a investigation

"Feds investigating after a Tesla on autopilot barreled into a parked firetruck"

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/innovations/wp/2018/01/23/a-tesla-owners-excuse-for-his-dui-crash-the-car-was-driving/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.81af0cddeb7d

Now unless there were two Teslas that barrelled into Fire trucks the investigation is on. ;)

DonDeeHippy wrote on May 15^th, 2018 at 5:13pm:

juliar wrote on May 14th, 2018 at 4:28am: Frustrated normally ignored LostSnail is pumping the "posts". Shows tremendous intelligence in copying another post and adding a bit of dribble. But with enormous relief to get away from the humdrum of LostSnail and onto something actually factual and interesting. Daniel Drummond Answered Aug 3, 2017 The problem with any electric car, is that you cannot depend on it in a weather disaster. In 2005, for example, Houston suffered a hurricane, and some parts of town were out of power for weeks. Some of my neighbors had electric cars. They ran out of charge quickly and became useless. Gas-powered cars had a dependability that was invisible until electricity was unavailable. Also, I have yet to see an electric vehicle which is powerful enough to tow stalled cars, or which can handle high water areas, for that matter potholes. They are wonderful in optimal conditions … but you don’t always have optimal conditions. Alberto Formenti, System Engeneer specialized in Microsoft Collaboration Answered Jul 12, 2017 Well I’m definitely a big fan of fuel cell, and I think that Hydrogen fuel cell electric cars are the only true solution for the future. So I’m pretty skeptical about all battery powered cars… With credentials like this he must know what he is talking about. :D :D :D :D

Like your everyday cold start ! :D LOL Perhaps they need to go back to the WWII days where they use to light a fire under the oil sump so they could startup the old clunkers :D LOL

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YFLlk-22a4U&t=164s

lee wrote on May 15^th, 2018 at 6:34pm:

[quote author=DonDeeHippy link=1526021627/69#69 date=1526372889]Ohh so they r going to change , they have every other accident, but this one they r not..... Cheesy Cheesy Wasn’t even fatal, what makes u think there will be a investigation

Ahh the other one was driver error, he had a big F truck in front , it swerved at the last second and the guy in the Tesla only saw the fire truck a moment before he crashed into it, he said it wasn’t Tesla’s fault.
Ohh and now u bring it up he was traveling 110 km and hit a stopped fire truck and wasn’t injured at all.
Again if I had to be in a accident like that, 100 km into big truck I’d want to be in a Tesla
;) ;) ;)

DonDeeHippy wrote on May 15^th, 2018 at 6:57pm:

Ahh the other one was driver error, he had a big F truck in front , it swerved at the last second and the guy in the Tesla only saw the fire truck a moment before he crashed into it, he said it wasn’t Tesla’s fault. Ohh and now u bring it up he was traveling 110 km and hit a stopped fire truck and wasn’t injured at all. Again if I had to be in a accident like that, 100 km into big truck I’d want to be in a Tesla Wink Wink Wink

So the bottom line is there is an investigation. Thank you.

I thought the Tesla that crashed the Firetruck the bloke had a broken ankle.

Happened here a couple of months ago. Holden had a tree jump out of the scrub at it. Broken ankle. Sometimes you can be lucky. But it is not a recommended driving experience.

lee wrote on May 15^th, 2018 at 7:05pm:

DonDeeHippy wrote on May 15th, 2018 at 6:57pm: Ahh the other one was driver error, he had a big F truck in front , it swerved at the last second and the guy in the Tesla only saw the fire truck a moment before he crashed into it, he said it wasn’t Tesla’s fault. Ohh and now u bring it up he was traveling 110 km and hit a stopped fire truck and wasn’t injured at all. Again if I had to be in a accident like that, 100 km into big truck I’d want to be in a Tesla Wink Wink Wink So the bottom line is there is an investigation. Thank you. I thought the Tesla that crashed the Firetruck the bloke had a broken ankle. Happened here a couple of months ago. Holden had a tree jump out of the scrub at it. Broken ankle. Sometimes you can be lucky. But it is not a recommended driving experience.

U where quoting a accident in January, not the one from a few days ago..... I guess it’s not looking what u post again hey lee  ;) ;)

DonDeeHippy wrote on May 15^th, 2018 at 7:19pm:

U where quoting a accident in January, not the one from a few days ago..... I guess it’s not looking what u post again hey lee

Wow. teslas like rear ending fire trucks. Now that must be one big selling point. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Wow. teslas like rear ending fire trucks. Now that must be one big selling point.

Girls are you sick of dull boring dud roots from Tinder?
Well now you can buy a tesla and slam it straight into the rear end of a firetruck, guaranteed to get you hooked up with a chunky fireman in no time>

lee wrote on May 15^th, 2018 at 7:24pm:

DonDeeHippy wrote on May 15th, 2018 at 7:19pm: U where quoting a accident in January, not the one from a few days ago..... I guess it’s not looking what u post again hey lee  Wow. teslas like rear ending fire trucks. Now that must be one big selling point. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

https://insideevs.com/tesla-model-s-rear-ends-another-parked-fire-truck/
Haha Tesla’s still have ppl driving them.
Found out the emergency braking doesn’t work for stationary objects or the car would be stopping for every car on the side of the road.
Works if a car in front brakes suddenly.
So the emergency braking isn’t programmed to work in this case.
He was going 100 kmh into a parked vehical at some lights , what has this have to do with Tesla ?

DonDeeHippy wrote on May 15^th, 2018 at 7:38pm:

He was going 100 kmh into a parked vehical at some lights , what has this have to do with Tesla ?

Perhaps, just perhaps they should tell people that the cars cannot be put into "driverless" mode.

So it isn't actually "autopilot"? That has been a sales pitch.

lee wrote on May 15^th, 2018 at 8:22pm:

DonDeeHippy wrote on May 15th, 2018 at 7:38pm: He was going 100 kmh into a parked vehical at some lights , what has this have to do with Tesla ? Perhaps, just perhaps they should tell people that the cars cannot be put into "driverless" mode.

Maybe do a iq test before they sell thair cars :D :D

DonDeeHippy wrote on May 15^th, 2018 at 8:25pm:

Maybe do a iq test before they sell thair cars

Tell people what the car can't do. That would solve the problem. It is a duty of care thing.

lee wrote on May 15^th, 2018 at 8:27pm:

DonDeeHippy wrote on May 15th, 2018 at 8:25pm: Maybe do a iq test before they sell thair cars Tell people what the car can't do. That would solve the problem. It is a duty of care thing.

Ohh u have some evidence Tesla haven’t been telling thair owners what the car can and can’t do. Or r u just making stuff up again.  ;)

DonDeeHippy wrote on May 15^th, 2018 at 8:41pm:

Ohh u have some evidence Tesla haven’t been telling thair owners what the car can and can’t do. Or r u just making stuff up again.

To me it stands to reason. Otherwise you have multiple people who actually believe their car will "autopilot". Why?

So obviously the "message" is not getting through. And these are people who can afford expensive motor cars; not Harry down the street who can only afford a moped and who as an IQ of 80.

So you tell me how effective is Tesla's message about not driving "autopilot".

lee wrote on May 15^th, 2018 at 8:48pm:

DonDeeHippy wrote on May 15th, 2018 at 8:41pm: Ohh u have some evidence Tesla haven’t been telling thair owners what the car can and can’t do. Or r u just making stuff up again.  To me it stands to reason. Otherwise you have multiple people who actually believe their car will "autopilot". Why? So obviously the "message" is not getting through. And these are people who can afford expensive motor cars; not Harry down the street who can only afford a moped and who as an IQ of 80. So you tell me how effective is Tesla's message about not driving "autopilot".

Haha u think if someone does something wrong they don’t blame the machinery. It’s human nature,..... I pressed the brake instead of the accelerator..
in this case we don’t even know if auto pilot was on. Your making assumptions
most cases where ppl have blamed autopilot with Tesla, unfortunately for them Tesla records all the data and it was the owners fault.
Even with this crash Tesla’s r still the safest vehicals on the road. People have to drive them though, so still accidents, just not as many as other cars.
Autonomous driving will fix that and hopefully not far away.

DonDeeHippy wrote on May 15^th, 2018 at 9:07pm:

Haha u think if someone does something wrong they don’t blame the machinery. It’s human nature,..... I pressed the brake instead of the accelerator..

That's your assumption.


DonDeeHippy wrote on May 15^th, 2018 at 9:07pm:

in this case we don’t even know if auto pilot was on. Your making assumptions

"The owner of a Tesla Model S that crashed into a parked firetruck in Utah last Friday said she had the car’s semi-autonomous Autopilot system engaged at the time of the incident, police said Monday. "

https://jalopnik.com/tesla-model-s-driver-says-autopilot-was-on-before-crash-1826022381

Posted - Yesterday 5:45

Now as you say that is not PROOF, but as the data is supplied to Tesla, it would be fruitless to lie.


DonDeeHippy wrote on May 15^th, 2018 at 9:07pm:

Autonomous driving will fix that and hopefully not far away.

Ah, an assumption.

lee wrote on May 15^th, 2018 at 9:21pm:

DonDeeHippy wrote on May 15th, 2018 at 9:07pm: Haha u think if someone does something wrong they don’t blame the machinery. It’s human nature,..... I pressed the brake instead of the accelerator.. That's your assumption. DonDeeHippy wrote on May 15th, 2018 at 9:07pm: in this case we don’t even know if auto pilot was on. Your making assumptions "The owner of a Tesla Model S that crashed into a parked firetruck in Utah last Friday said she had the car’s semi-autonomous Autopilot system engaged at the time of the incident, police said Monday. " https://jalopnik.com/tesla-model-s-driver-says-autopilot-was-on-before-crash-1826022381 Posted - Yesterday 5:45 Now as you say that is not PROOF, but as the data is supplied to Tesla, it would be fruitless to lie. DonDeeHippy wrote on May 15th, 2018 at 9:07pm: Autonomous driving will fix that and hopefully not far away. Ah, an assumption.

You know it’s just a better cruise control . She was doing 100 kms at a stop light, so she didn’t have speed control going, she was looking at her phone.  40,000 deaths a year in USA and this silly woman is driving around looking at her phone , crashes and breaks her foot. How is this even news worthy.
Any new car u can have the cruise control on , look at your phone and crash into someone. Does that mean all cars should get rid of cruise control.
Ohh and Tesla’s are still the safest cars on the road.
Autonomous cars won’t have drivers looking at phones, late for work or falling asleep, so I’d say a fair bet there will be less deaths when they r used.
Won’t it be nice to drive around with no tailgaters  ;) ;) ;)

DonDeeHippy wrote on May 15^th, 2018 at 9:45pm:

You know it’s just a better cruise control . She was doing 100 kms at a stop light, so she didn’t have speed control going, she was looking at her phone.

Is this the latest one or the earlier one?

It still points to the message not getting through to buyers. Obviously it is not being reinforced properly.


DonDeeHippy wrote on May 15^th, 2018 at 9:45pm:

Any new car u can have the cruise control on , look at your phone and crash into someone. Does that mean all cars should get rid of cruise control.

I am in the country. I use cruise control all the time. It is easy to turn it off from the steering wheel or a quick touch on the brake.

But it is not marketed as "Autopilot".


DonDeeHippy wrote on May 15^th, 2018 at 9:45pm:

Ohh and Tesla’s are still the safest cars on the road.

Is it? What are your parameters for "safest on the road"?

lee wrote on May 15^th, 2018 at 7:24pm:

DonDeeHippy wrote on May 15th, 2018 at 7:19pm: U where quoting a accident in January, not the one from a few days ago..... I guess it’s not looking what u post again hey lee  Wow. teslas like rear ending fire trucks. Now that must be one big selling point. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

How many rear enders are not Teslas ? You are really scratching the bottom of the barrel hoping that someone closes down Tesla's operation.

Sir lastnail wrote on May 15^th, 2018 at 10:59pm:

How many rear enders are not Teslas ?

How many of those other vehicles are sold as having "Autopilot"?


Sir lastnail wrote on May 15^th, 2018 at 10:59pm:

You are really scratching the bottom of the barrel hoping that someone closes down Tesla's operation.

making schist up again? I don't give a continental about Tesla.

They are just not as good as they are made out to be. Other vehicles have accidents. I am not hoping  someone shuts them down either.

You really are paranoid aren't you?

lee wrote on May 15^th, 2018 at 9:58pm:

DonDeeHippy wrote on May 15th, 2018 at 9:45pm: You know it’s just a better cruise control . She was doing 100 kms at a stop light, so she didn’t have speed control going, she was looking at her phone. Is this the latest one or the earlier one? It still points to the message not getting through to buyers. Obviously it is not being reinforced properly. DonDeeHippy wrote on May 15th, 2018 at 9:45pm: Any new car u can have the cruise control on , look at your phone and crash into someone. Does that mean all cars should get rid of cruise control. I am in the country. I use cruise control all the time. It is easy to turn it off from the steering wheel or a quick touch on the brake. But it is not marketed as "Autopilot". DonDeeHippy wrote on May 15th, 2018 at 9:45pm: Ohh and Tesla’s are still the safest cars on the road. Is it? What are your parameters for "safest on the road"?

Is Tesla safest car?
Palo Alto, CA — Independent testing by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) has awarded the Tesla Model S a 5-star safety rating, not just overall, but in every subcategory without exception. Approximately one percent of all cars tested by the federal government achieve 5 stars across the board.
The Tesla Model X has been scored as the safest SUV the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) has ever tested, and the second safest vehicle the NHTSA has ever tested … only trailing the Tesla Model S.

Tesla's crash rate was reduced by 40% after introduction of Autopilot based on data reviewed by NHTSA
https://electrek.co/2017/01/19/tesla-crash-rate-autopilot-nhtsa/
In the US, there is one automotive fatality every 86 million miles across all vehicles from all manufacturers. For Tesla, there is one fatality, including known pedestrian fatalities, every 320 million miles in vehicles equipped with Autopilot hardware. If you are driving a Tesla equipped with Autopilot hardware, you are 3.7 times less likely to be involved in a fatal accident.
https://electrek.co/2018/03/30/tesla-autopilot-fatal-crash-data/

Ohh I keep forgetting you don't actually look at what u post or really pay attention. The woman on the phone according to what u have posted was the latest accident ;)
the only thing  obvious is that she was on her phone and crashed into a stopped vehicle.
Every time there is a accident the media go crazy u think Tesla owners don't read the news about the short comings of its auto pilot ???
So when u have cruise control on , can u look at your phone ?
Maybe its the phones fault, not enough warnings that u cant drive and look at your phone at the same time.... :D
Using a phone while driving in Aus is illegal isn't it, because you cant pay attention , you could crash into a parked fire truck for instance......

Heavens the hexspurts are out in force pumping their private windbags.

Fact is Tesla is a liability that no sensible person would even think of lumbering himself with. Just read all the problems owners are having with their Tesla.

Tesla is so overloaded with potential untested unknown traps that it is downright dangerous - just see the accidents especially where the lithium battery exploded.

If Volkswagen and Mercedes decide to enter the already obsolete all electric market Tesla will quickly fold.

it will be a great relief when the practical convenient hydrogen cars and trucks render the pain in the neck impractical all electric heaps obsolete (again).

It will be history repeating itself when some 200 years ago there were electric cars that were rendered obsolete overnight when the starter motor was invented and the much more practical and convenient petrol cars took over.


The sudden unexpected acceleration is deadly

http://tesla-automobile.ru/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/avarya-s-gruzovikom-1.jpg

juliar wrote on May 16^th, 2018 at 8:53am:

Heavens the hexspurts are out in force pumping their private windbags. Fact is Tesla is a liability that no sensible person would even think of lumbering himself with. Just read all the problems owners are having with their Tesla. Tesla is so overloaded with potential untested unknown traps that it is downright dangerous - just see the accidents especially where the lithium battery exploded. If Volkswagen and Mercedes decide to enter the already obsolete all electric market Tesla will quickly fold. it will be a great relief when the practical convenient hydrogen cars and trucks render the pain in the neck impractical all electric heaps obsolete (again). It will be history repeating itself when some 200 years ago there were electric cars that were rendered obsolete overnight when the starter motor was invented and the much more practical and convenient petrol cars took over. The sudden unexpected acceleration is deadly http://tesla-automobile.ru/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/avarya-s-gruzovikom-1.jpg

hexpurt indeed ....

In Consumer Reports' 2017 Annual Owner Satisfaction Survey, the popular review publication found Tesla topped the vehicle satisfaction survey — for the third straight year.

Tesla owners r the Most satisfied of any car company.

Show me a mass produced car manufacturer that doesn't have unsatisfied customers.... you list some people that might own a tesla ,just names no proof, Keep Grasping.... ;) ;)
350,000 Teslas and what you have listed 20 ppl that r not happy ohh my....

One person a day dies in USA from car fires.
Its a tragedy but in bad accidents cars can catch on fire, although the new Model 3's are looking like they are better designed and much harder to catch on fire.
Hmmm tank full of Petrol or a battery under you , or even worse Hydrogen at 10000psi under you , all can go boom.

Yeah Yeah its the when with VW or Merc , if they start now , what 4 years behind.....
Tesla is Competitive NOW against all the luxury car makers the biggest selling Large Luxury car in USA 3 years in a row and now the 3 is the biggest selling mid luxury car in USA, they cant compete with ICE vehicles what makes u think can with EV's ?

Hydrogen: It’s the fuel of the future — and it always will be.

https://evobsession.com/hydrogen-fuel-cell-cars-fail-in-depth/
IF and a huge IF they can address all the problems of H2 they might be viable, ATM it looks like 20-30 years from now could get competitive..
Ohh and Hydrogen fuel cells r EV's as well, just a smaller Battery.

lee wrote on May 15^th, 2018 at 11:53pm:

Sir lastnail wrote on May 15th, 2018 at 10:59pm: How many rear enders are not Teslas ? How many of those other vehicles are sold as having "Autopilot"? Sir lastnail wrote on May 15th, 2018 at 10:59pm: You are really scratching the bottom of the barrel hoping that someone closes down Tesla's operation. making schist up again? I don't give a continental about Tesla. They are just not as good as they are made out to be. Other vehicles have accidents. I am not hoping  someone shuts them down either. You really are paranoid aren't you?

But they can't make enough of them and I guess that's what counts for a car manufacturer. Just ask Holden and Ford what happens when nobody wants your cars anymore ;)

And at least you don't have trouble starting them in sub-zero weather ;)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YFLlk-22a4U&t=164s

Oh gosh LostSnail is showing how little he knows and understands. He is so like the rtard Polly Waffle it is uncanny.


DDH,

you are sucked in by all the Greeny Global Warming hype and don't bother to read actual complaints from Tesla owners who point out that to buy a Tesla is buying nothing but inconvenience and trouble. Their service is atrocious and to keep a Tesla once its warranty runs out is akin to suicide as repairs are just so expensive.

Not to mention the sudden unexpected acceleration that sometimes occurs without warning. And the "auto pilot" that has a mind of its own!!!!

Tesla is releasing "cars" that are not fully tested and are using the unsuspecting buyers as guinea pigs to find the bugs.

If the vastly bigger VW and Mercedes decide to produce the already obsolete all electric pain in the necks Tesla will disappear overnite as it is already going broke and the share price is dropping fast.

Note there are already quite a few other makes of all electric cars available which are much cheaper than the overpriced experimental Tesla. These are being used in China to reduce their shocking pollution problem.

Hybrids are quite successful such as Toyota makes.


Hydrogen cars are already operating in California with hydrogen gas stations already established. So much for your uninformed 30 year stuff.

And Adelaide has bought hydrogen powered buses.

Hydrogen can be used to power cars and trucks just like LPG and LNG. Electric is really only practical for cars and Tesla has already put their truck on hold.

So hydrogen is much more attractive for smog bound cities where trucks contribute a lot of pollution with diesel pollution.

And hydrogen does not load up the power system creating heaps of coal pollution. Hydrogen can readily be produced from water electrolysis using unreliable unstable renewable wind and solar.

And of course the refuel time for hydrogen is slick and quick unlike the very tedious half hour for an all electric heap assuming you can find a free charge point.

In short you would have to be masochistic to lumber yourself with an inconvenient pain in the neck all electric heap.

juliar wrote on May 16^th, 2018 at 11:07am:

Oh gosh LostSnail is showing how little he knows and understands. He is so like the rtard Polly Waffle it is uncanny. DDH, you are sucked in by all the Greeny Global Warming hype and don't bother to read actual complaints from Tesla owners who point out that to buy a Tesla is buying nothing but inconvenience and trouble. Their service is atrocious and to keep a Tesla once its warranty runs out is akin to suicide as repairs are just so expensive. Not to mention the sudden unexpected acceleration that sometimes occurs without warning. And the "auto pilot" that has a mind of its own!!!! Tesla is releasing "cars" that are not fully tested and are using the unsuspecting buyers as guinea pigs to find the bugs. If the vastly bigger VW and Mercedes decide to produce the already obsolete all electric pain in the necks Tesla will disappear overnite as it is already going broke and the share price is dropping fast. Note there are already quite a few other makes of all electric cars available which are much cheaper than the overpriced experimental Tesla. These are being used in China to reduce their shocking pollution problem. Hybrids are quite successful such as Toyota makes. Hydrogen cars are already operating in California with hydrogen gas stations already established. So much for your uninformed 30 year stuff. And Adelaide has bought hydrogen powered buses. Hydrogen can be used to power cars and trucks just like LPG and LNG. Electric is really only practical for cars and Tesla has already put their truck on hold. So hydrogen is much more attractive for smog bound cities where trucks contribute a lot of pollution with diesel pollution. And hydrogen does not load up the power system creating heaps of coal pollution. Hydrogen can readily be produced from water electrolysis using unreliable unstable renewable wind and solar. And of course the refuel time for hydrogen is slick and quick unlike the very tedious half hour for an all electric heap assuming you can find a free charge point. In short you would have to be masochistic to lumber yourself with an inconvenient pain in the neck all electric heap.

Not when you get a free chargeup socko ;) See if your never ever hydrogen car dealer offers you that deal of a life time :D LOL

http://www.ozpolitic.com/album/forum-attachments/TeslaAtChadtsone_-_Copy__2_.jpg

DonDeeHippy wrote on May 16^th, 2018 at 4:47am:

Is Tesla safest car? Palo Alto, CA — Independent testing by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) has awarded the Tesla Model S a 5-star safety rating, not just overall, but in every subcategory without exception. Approximately one percent of all cars tested by the federal government achieve 5 stars across the board.

So what you are saying is that Tesla has an equivalent safety rating as the rest of the 1%. I am not sure how you translate that to "the safest".


DonDeeHippy wrote on May 16^th, 2018 at 4:47am:

Tesla's crash rate was reduced by 40% after introduction of Autopilot based on data reviewed by NHTSA https://electrek.co/2017/01/19/tesla-crash-rate-autopilot-nhtsa/

If that is the case it was 40% worse before Autopilot was installed. ;)


DonDeeHippy wrote on May 16^th, 2018 at 4:47am:

In the US, there is one automotive fatality every 86 million miles across all vehicles from all manufacturers. For Tesla, there is one fatality, including known pedestrian fatalities, every 320 million miles in vehicles equipped with Autopilot hardware.

Do you think that might have something to do with the lower numbers of Tesla's on the road? As a percentage against all other vehicles?

Vehicle registrations USA 269 Million

EV's Total - 540,000. So EV's (including Tesla) about 0.2% of total vehicles

" In 2016, a total of around 269 million motor vehicles were registered in the U.S."

https://www.statista.com/statistics/192998/registered-passenger-cars-in-the-united-states-since-1975/

"There have now been over 540,000 electric vehicles sold in the U.S."

https://www.recode.net/2016/12/21/14041112/electric-vehicles-report-2016

So the accident rate is 4 times less on a 0.2% of vehicle registrations; for all EV's. That is not a good statistic.


DonDeeHippy wrote on May 16^th, 2018 at 4:47am:

If you are driving a Tesla equipped with Autopilot hardware, you are 3.7 times less likely to be involved in a fatal accident. https://electrek.co/2018/03/30/tesla-autopilot-fatal-crash-data/

Again. Numbers of Tesla's against all other vehicles.


DonDeeHippy wrote on May 16^th, 2018 at 4:47am:

Ohh I keep forgetting you don't actually look at what u post or really pay attention. The woman on the phone according to what u have posted was the latest accident Wink the only thing  obvious is that she was on her phone and crashed into a stopped vehicle. Every time there is a accident the media go crazy u think Tesla owners don't read the news about the short comings of its auto pilot ??? So when u have cruise control on , can u look at your phone ?

Yeah. That's why in places like Australia it is illegal to look at your phone, answer it, text with it. And don't be daft. You keep making schist up and taking things out of context. That says more about you than me. ;)


DonDeeHippy wrote on May 16^th, 2018 at 4:47am:

Maybe its the phones fault, not enough warnings that u cant drive and look at your phone at the same time...

Oh dear. trying to raise strawman arguments and you are just no well equipped enough to do it.


DonDeeHippy wrote on May 16^th, 2018 at 4:47am:

Using a phone while driving in Aus is illegal isn't it, because you cant pay attention , you could crash into a parked fire truck for instance......

Exactly as I noted above. The fact is Tesla advertises it as "Autopilot". Maybe they should change it to something that reflects reality. Cruise control perhaps? ;)

Sir lastnail wrote on May 16^th, 2018 at 10:54am:

But they can't make enough of them and I guess that's what counts for a car manufacturer.

Yes; As I posted the other day problems with their robotics, and flow if I recall correctly.

As I noted at the time not something to brag about.
Sir lastnail wrote on May 16^th, 2018 at 10:54am:

And at least you don't have trouble starting them in sub-zero weather

Yes. No engine to start. How far will they actually run in sub-zero weather?

Edit: ok found it.

"Over the month of January I decided to study the impact sub-zero weather conditions had on the battery range of my Tesla Model S and found it to be diminished by roughly 40%. Range will vary depending on one’s driving habits but the effects of winter on a Tesla Model S and its battery range should roughly mirror the data that I was able to collect."3

https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-battery-range-sub-zero-snowy-conditions/

Once an ICE vehicle is started how much is the range reduced?

juliar wrote on May 16^th, 2018 at 11:07am:

Oh gosh LostSnail is showing how little he knows and understands. He is so like the rtard Polly Waffle it is uncanny. DDH, you are sucked in by all the Greeny Global Warming hype and don't bother to read actual complaints from Tesla owners who point out that to buy a Tesla is buying nothing but inconvenience and trouble. Their service is atrocious and to keep a Tesla once its warranty runs out is akin to suicide as repairs are just so expensive. Not to mention the sudden unexpected acceleration that sometimes occurs without warning. And the "auto pilot" that has a mind of its own!!!! Tesla is releasing "cars" that are not fully tested and are using the unsuspecting buyers as guinea pigs to find the bugs. If the vastly bigger VW and Mercedes decide to produce the already obsolete all electric pain in the necks Tesla will disappear overnite as it is already going broke and the share price is dropping fast. Note there are already quite a few other makes of all electric cars available which are much cheaper than the overpriced experimental Tesla. These are being used in China to reduce their shocking pollution problem. Hybrids are quite successful such as Toyota makes. Hydrogen cars are already operating in California with hydrogen gas stations already established. So much for your uninformed 30 year stuff. And Adelaide has bought hydrogen powered buses. Hydrogen can be used to power cars and trucks just like LPG and LNG. Electric is really only practical for cars and Tesla has already put their truck on hold. So hydrogen is much more attractive for smog bound cities where trucks contribute a lot of pollution with diesel pollution. And hydrogen does not load up the power system creating heaps of coal pollution. Hydrogen can readily be produced from water electrolysis using unreliable unstable renewable wind and solar. And of course the refuel time for hydrogen is slick and quick unlike the very tedious half hour for an all electric heap assuming you can find a free charge point. In short you would have to be masochistic to lumber yourself with an inconvenient pain in the neck all electric heap.

Wow I think the only thing u said that was true was in a few years Adelaide might be getting 6 busses (ohh fuel cell EV busses)
Yes California has spent Millions getting a Few H2 stations (6 mil each and can fill about 10 cars a day)and Toyota and Honda r selling 1000 Fuel cell cars a year, the cars r sold at a loss to the manufacturers..... Meanwhile Tesla in California r looking to beat 200,000 car this year, not to mention all the other BEV's in California. Every house is a recharge Station.... 95% of EV owners charge their car at night while they sleep, never have to goto a gas station again....

NHTSA (the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration) estimates there are 16,000 “preventable crashes caused by pedal error” due to the driver’s fault.  In other words, people mistakenly push the accelerator when they intended to press the brakes.
In other words, Tesla vehicles can only accelerate if the accelerator’s sensors are shown to be pressed by the driver since there is no other way for the car to accelerate.
In every single case of supposed “unintended sudden acceleration”, Tesla is able to pull the car’s logs and in every case the driver can be found to be pressing the accelerator and not the brake.
http://teslaweekly.com/why-drivers-are-to-blame-for-all-sudden-unintended-acceleration-accidents-in-a-tesla/Damm Tesla recording everything that happens in their cars......

https://www.consumerreports.org/car-reliability-owner-satisfaction/car-brands-ranked-by-owner-satisfaction/
90% satisfaction by Customers , Ford and Gm are at 70%

The S is a luxury car u think parts for a Merc or BMW or Audi r cheep.......
Ohh Second-hand EV's r the quickest sold cars in USA, what needs to be replaced, EV's have 80% less moving parts and r expected to last 4-5 times as long.....

Tesla haven't put the Semi on Hold..... Elon at the last quarter meeting mentioned that with their Tech now they could build one with 600miles of range instead, of the 500 he announced last year.
Yeah Tesla have doubled production this year, going broke for sure, poor buggers only have 2 billion spare cash for the year too.
Tesla now r outdoing VW and Merc with the Model S and the Model 3, but according to u . one day they will fight back, takes 3-4 years for a traditional car company to put out a new car little on new drivetrain. they r all saying they will have cars out in about 4-5 years .
Now u mention China Tesla has just registered a company there, interesting days....
It takes 5 times the power just to make and compress  H2 than it does to recharge a battery,
then u have to decompress the H2 then put it in a truck then Recompress it and then again to the refill station, all at 10000 psi with a gas that is corrosive and highly inflammable then put in a fuel cell car that,  the gas destroys both the tank and the fuel cell and both need replacing every few years.
For far less money and 5 times the efficiency the solar plant could just charge up some batteries and recharge ev's when needed. Kiss is needed here. Using a highly corrosive, explosive gas, under incredible pressure just doesn't seam worth it.

lee wrote on May 16^th, 2018 at 12:02pm:

Sir lastnail wrote on May 16th, 2018 at 10:54am: But they can't make enough of them and I guess that's what counts for a car manufacturer. Yes; As I posted the other day problems with their robotics, and flow if I recall correctly. As I noted at the time not something to brag about. Sir lastnail wrote on May 16th, 2018 at 10:54am: And at least you don't have trouble starting them in sub-zero weather Yes. No engine to start. How far will they actually run in sub-zero weather? Edit: ok found it. "Over the month of January I decided to study the impact sub-zero weather conditions had on the battery range of my Tesla Model S and found it to be diminished by roughly 40%. Range will vary depending on one’s driving habits but the effects of winter on a Tesla Model S and its battery range should roughly mirror the data that I was able to collect."3 https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-battery-range-sub-zero-snowy-conditions/ Once an ICE vehicle is started how much is the range reduced?

That's if you can start it which kind of makes it a zero range car :D LOL

Sir lastnail wrote on May 16^th, 2018 at 12:12pm:

That's if you can start it which kind of makes it a zero range car

I saw that video a long time ago. Didn't that ice vehicle start in the end? ;)

lee wrote on May 16^th, 2018 at 11:54am:

DonDeeHippy wrote on May 16th, 2018 at 4:47am: Is Tesla safest car? Palo Alto, CA — Independent testing by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) has awarded the Tesla Model S a 5-star safety rating, not just overall, but in every subcategory without exception. Approximately one percent of all cars tested by the federal government achieve 5 stars across the board. So what you are saying is that Tesla has an equivalent safety rating as the rest of the 1%. I am not sure how you translate that to "the safest". DonDeeHippy wrote on May 16th, 2018 at 4:47am: Tesla's crash rate was reduced by 40% after introduction of Autopilot based on data reviewed by NHTSA https://electrek.co/2017/01/19/tesla-crash-rate-autopilot-nhtsa/ If that is the case it was 40% worse before Autopilot was installed. ;) DonDeeHippy wrote on May 16th, 2018 at 4:47am: In the US, there is one automotive fatality every 86 million miles across all vehicles from all manufacturers. For Tesla, there is one fatality, including known pedestrian fatalities, every 320 million miles in vehicles equipped with Autopilot hardware. Do you think that might have something to do with the lower numbers of Tesla's on the road? As a percentage against all other vehicles? DonDeeHippy wrote on May 16th, 2018 at 4:47am: If you are driving a Tesla equipped with Autopilot hardware, you are 3.7 times less likely to be involved in a fatal accident. https://electrek.co/2018/03/30/tesla-autopilot-fatal-crash-data/ Again. Numbers of Tesla's against all other vehicles. DonDeeHippy wrote on May 16th, 2018 at 4:47am: Ohh I keep forgetting you don't actually look at what u post or really pay attention. The woman on the phone according to what u have posted was the latest accident Wink the only thing  obvious is that she was on her phone and crashed into a stopped vehicle. Every time there is a accident the media go crazy u think Tesla owners don't read the news about the short comings of its auto pilot ??? So when u have cruise control on , can u look at your phone ? Yeah. That's why in places like Australia it is illegal to look at your phone, answer it, text with it. And don't be daft. You keep making schist up and taking things out of context. That says more about you than me. ;) DonDeeHippy wrote on May 16th, 2018 at 4:47am: Maybe its the phones fault, not enough warnings that u cant drive and look at your phone at the same time... Oh dear. trying to raise strawman arguments and you are just no well equipped enough to do it. DonDeeHippy wrote on May 16th, 2018 at 4:47am: Using a phone while driving in Aus is illegal isn't it, because you cant pay attention , you could crash into a parked fire truck for instance...... Exactly as I noted above. The fact is Tesla advertises it as "Autopilot". Maybe they should change it to something that reflects reality. Cruise control perhaps? ;)

ohh Lee if only u would read..... 87 million miles for 1 death
320 million miles 1 death for Tesla's, doesn't matter how many cars r on the road, its the distance travelled.

What am I taking out of Context ? The woman was doing 100kms and crashed into a stopped truck at some lights while on her phone. Speed notification would of been off, who knows what else was off.
Again wait a few weeks and Tesla will release EXACTLY what happened like they have every other time.
Ok so u don't like the Name well Tweet Elon he might listen to u........ ;) ;)

Gee it would be nice if the Globally Warmed Greeny types had the remotest clue what they are talking about.

But with Greenies it is all emotional parroting of what they saw on some Greeny web site - no practical understanding whatsoever.

Tesla cars aren't worth a bumper in cold weather as the battery carks it - this is FACT and reported by an owner in Canada or the USA.

The sheer inconvenience of half hour refueling is the death knell for the all electrics.

Of course the Greenies will parrot the usual bull about settling down for a rest etc but this is not much chop for a delivery or courier or taxi driver.

And the FACT that electric is only suitable for cars and not for larger trucks means it is a dead end in itself. Note Tesla has stopped work on its truck as it is going broke.


Enter the dream fuel hydrogen which just like LPG and LNG can power big and small vehicles and people will abandon the white elephant all electrics just like they did some 200 hundred years ago.

BIG ONES
https://www.sartaonline.com/Content/uploads/SARTA-FC-bus-2896-xl.jpg


and small ones
https://www.electrans.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/Hydrogen-Fuel-Cell.jpg

DonDeeHippy wrote on May 16^th, 2018 at 12:33pm:

ohh Lee if only u would read..... 87 million miles for 1 death 320 million miles 1 death for Tesla's, doesn't matter how many cars r on the road, its the distance travelled.

Now if only that extrapolates out over all time. You have to remember that 87 million miles was for "all vehicles". Trucks, buses, EV's (including Tesla) and passenger vehicles. That is a statistical measure again. So how many would it have been for a Merc, a VW?

So how far was the distance travelled by "all vehicles"?

Statistics - gotta love them. They can do magical things. With emphasis on the "magic". ;)


DonDeeHippy wrote on May 16^th, 2018 at 12:33pm:

Ok so u don't like the Name well Tweet Elon he might listen to u........

Seeing as he doesn't seem to listen to anyone else why should I bother?

I notice you didn't quibble about the rest. ;)

juliar wrote on May 16^th, 2018 at 12:42pm:

Gee it would be nice if the Globally Warmed Greeny types had the remotest clue what they are talking about. But with Greenies it is all emotional parroting of what they saw on some Greeny web site - no practical understanding whatsoever. Tesla cars aren't worth a bumper in cold weather as the battery carks it - this is FACT and reported by an owner in Canada or the USA. The sheer inconvenience of half hour refueling is the death knell for the all electrics. Of course the Greenies will parrot the usual bull about settling down for a rest etc but this is not much chop for a delivery or courier or taxi driver. And the FACT that electric is only suitable for cars and not for larger trucks means it is a dead end in itself. Note Tesla has stopped work on its truck as it is going broke. Enter the dream fuel hydrogen which just like LPG and LNG can power big and small vehicles and people will abandon the white elephant all electrics just like they did some 200 hundred years ago. BIG ONES https://www.sartaonline.com/Content/uploads/SARTA-FC-bus-2896-xl.jpg and small ones https://www.electrans.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/Hydrogen-Fuel-Cell.jpg

Dream, your right
Yes more of the same without actually addressing what you have already sprouted.... When u get serious and want to discuss this let me know, other wise ill just let u rant and rave. ;) ;) ;)
I suppose your a flat earther as well  :D :D :D

lee wrote on May 16^th, 2018 at 12:43pm:

DonDeeHippy wrote on May 16th, 2018 at 12:33pm: ohh Lee if only u would read..... 87 million miles for 1 death 320 million miles 1 death for Tesla's, doesn't matter how many cars r on the road, its the distance travelled. Now if only that extrapolates out over all time. You have to remember that 87 million miles was for "all vehicles". Trucks, buses, EV's (including Tesla) and passenger vehicles. That is a statistical measure again. So how many would it have been for a Merc, a VW? So how far was the distance travelled by "all vehicles"? Statistics - gotta love them. They can do magical things. With emphasis on the "magic". ;) DonDeeHippy wrote on May 16th, 2018 at 12:33pm: Ok so u don't like the Name well Tweet Elon he might listen to u........ Seeing as he doesn't seem to listen to anyone else why should I bother? I notice you didn't quibble about the rest. ;)

What rest Lee....  :D :D

lee wrote on May 16^th, 2018 at 12:29pm:

Sir lastnail wrote on May 16th, 2018 at 12:12pm: That's if you can start it which kind of makes it a zero range car I saw that video a long time ago. Didn't that ice vehicle start in the end? ;)

Yes after waiting for the summer season for it to defrost :D LOL

Sir lastnail wrote on May 16^th, 2018 at 1:19pm:

Yes after waiting for the summer season for it to defrost

So the Tesla wasn't up to the task? Oh dear. ;)

juliar wrote on May 16^th, 2018 at 12:42pm:

Gee it would be nice if the Globally Warmed Greeny types had the remotest clue what they are talking about. But with Greenies it is all emotional parroting of what they saw on some Greeny web site - no practical understanding whatsoever. Tesla cars aren't worth a bumper in cold weather as the battery carks it - this is FACT and reported by an owner in Canada or the USA. The sheer inconvenience of half hour refueling is the death knell for the all electrics. Of course the Greenies will parrot the usual bull about settling down for a rest etc but this is not much chop for a delivery or courier or taxi driver. And the FACT that electric is only suitable for cars and not for larger trucks means it is a dead end in itself. Note Tesla has stopped work on its truck as it is going broke. Enter the dream fuel hydrogen which just like LPG and LNG can power big and small vehicles and people will abandon the white elephant all electrics just like they did some 200 hundred years ago. BIG ONES https://www.sartaonline.com/Content/uploads/SARTA-FC-bus-2896-xl.jpg and small ones https://www.electrans.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/Hydrogen-Fuel-Cell.jpg

yes hydrogen is great socko especially when you can create the hydrogen yourself and bypass greed incorporated at the fool bowser :D LOL

https://arstechnica.com/cars/2018/05/anheuser-busch-just-bought-800-fuel-cell-nikola-trucks/

lee wrote on May 16^th, 2018 at 1:25pm:

Sir lastnail wrote on May 16th, 2018 at 1:19pm: Yes after waiting for the summer season for it to defrost So the Tesla wasn't up to the task? Oh dear. ;)

https://cleantechnica.com/2018/03/26/norways-ev-association-conducts-biggest-winter-electric-car-test-ever/
The good news from this test is that drivers who live in cold climates have no reason to fear owning an electric car. In terms of which is best, this old expression is still true; ” You pays your money and your takes your choice.” Happy motoring!
Norway has the biggest uptake of EV's in the world (about50%) and they all seam to cope during winter.
I wonder if it gets cold there.
;) ;)

DonDeeHippy wrote on May 16^th, 2018 at 4:14pm:

[url]https://cleantechnica.com/2018/03/26/norways-ev-association-conducts-biggest-win ter-electric-car-test-ever/ [/url] The good news from this test is that drivers who live in cold climates have no reason to fear owning an electric car. In terms of which is best, this old expression is still true; ” You pays your money and your takes your choice.” Happy motoring! Norway has the biggest uptake of EV's in the world (about50%) and they all seam to cope during winter. I wonder if it gets cold there.

Pity you didn't read what the answer was about. It was about a Tesla attempting to start an ICE vehicle. ;)

lee wrote on May 16^th, 2018 at 5:00pm:

DonDeeHippy wrote on May 16th, 2018 at 4:14pm: [url]https://cleantechnica.com/2018/03/26/norways-ev-association-conducts-biggest-win ter-electric-car-test-ever/ [/url] The good news from this test is that drivers who live in cold climates have no reason to fear owning an electric car. In terms of which is best, this old expression is still true; ” You pays your money and your takes your choice.” Happy motoring! Norway has the biggest uptake of EV's in the world (about50%) and they all seam to cope during winter. I wonder if it gets cold there. Pity you didn't read what the answer was about. It was about a Tesla attempting to start an ICE vehicle. ;)

Ahh my bad well not total waste , hehe it answers jul's rant  :D ;)

OK now we can see what happened with the firetruck crash.....\
https://electrek.co/2018/05/16/tesla-driver-crashed-truck-autopilo-logs-nhtsa-investigates/

Tesla has now obtained the data logs from the car, which the South Jordan Police Department shared in a report:
The driver engaged Autosteer and Traffic Aware Cruise Control on multiple occasions during this drive cycle. She repeatedly cancelled and then re-engaged these features, and regularly adjusted the vehicle’s cruising speed.
Drivers are repeatedly advised Autopilot features do not make Tesla vehicles “autonomous” and that the driver absolutely must remain vigilant with their eyes on the road, hands on the wheel and they must be prepared to take any and all action necessary to avoid hazards on the road.
The vehicle registered more than a dozen instances of her hands being off the steering wheel in this drive cycle. On two such occasions, she had her hands off the wheel for more than one minute each time and her hands came back on only after a visual alert was provided. Each time she put her hands back on the wheel, she took them back off the wheel after a few seconds.
About 1 minute and 22 seconds before the crash, she re-enabled Autosteer and Cruise Control, and then, within two seconds, took her hands off the steering wheel again. She did not touch the steering wheel for the next 80 seconds until the crash happened; this is consistent with her admission that she was looking at her phone at the time.
The vehicle was traveling at about 60 mph when the crash happened. This is the speed the driver selected. 
The driver manually pressed the vehicle brake pedal fractions of a second prior to the crash.
Contrary to the proper use of Autopilot, the driver did not pay attention to the road at all times, did not keep her hands on the steering wheel, and she used it on a street with no center median and with stoplight controlled intersections.
She got a ticket for it...... so news worthy :D :D :D
There is a reason we outlawed using a Mobil phone.
Cant help stupidity until vehicles are completely autonomous   ;) ;)

lee wrote on May 16^th, 2018 at 1:25pm:

Sir lastnail wrote on May 16th, 2018 at 1:19pm: Yes after waiting for the summer season for it to defrost So the Tesla wasn't up to the task? Oh dear. ;)

the clunker wasn't up to the task idiot ! Do you have trouble accepting the evidence ?

Sir lastnail wrote on May 17^th, 2018 at 11:34am:

the clunker wasn't up to the task idiot ! Do you have trouble accepting the evidence ?

What evidence? The Tesla tried to start an ICE vehicle. It failed.

The failure could be the ICE vehicle or the Tesla. ;)

DonDeeHippy wrote on May 17^th, 2018 at 11:13am:

Cant help stupidity until vehicles are completely autonomous

Or if they get there.

"Autopilot" has a specific meaning. Trying to change the meaning of the word just doesn't cut it.

"An autopilot is a system used to control the trajectory of an aircraft without constant 'hands-on' control by a human operator being required. Autopilots do not replace human operators, but instead they assist them in controlling the aircraft. This allows them to focus on broader aspects of operations such as monitoring the trajectory, weather and systems"

Source wiki

But Tesla are saying you can't be "hands-off" on their version.

lee wrote on May 17^th, 2018 at 12:30pm:

DonDeeHippy wrote on May 17th, 2018 at 11:13am: Cant help stupidity until vehicles are completely autonomous Or if they get there. "Autopilot" has a specific meaning. Trying to change the meaning of the word just doesn't cut it. "An autopilot is a system used to control the trajectory of an aircraft without constant 'hands-on' controlby a human operator being required. Autopilots do not replace human operators, but instead they assist them in controlling the aircraft. This allows them to focus on broader aspects of operations such as monitoring the trajectory, weather and systems" Source wiki But Tesla are saying you can't be "hands-off" on their version.

ohh look I highlighted the next line and totally different....
Besides a aircraft  10000m up in the air is a bit different to a car with another one only metres away..

So as what u put up,
Autopilots do not replace human operators but instead they assist them in controlling

Sounds about right thanks for pointing it out  ;) ;) ;)

DonDeeHippy wrote on May 17^th, 2018 at 12:39pm:

ohh look I highlighted the next line and totally different....

Yes. Aircraft tend to have two pilots. Does a Tesla?  You do know Aircraft autotpilots can actually land aircraft?

That seems more technical than preventing a crash into stationary objects. ;)

lee wrote on May 17^th, 2018 at 12:25pm:

Sir lastnail wrote on May 17th, 2018 at 11:34am: the clunker wasn't up to the task idiot ! Do you have trouble accepting the evidence ? What evidence? The Tesla tried to start an ICE vehicle. It failed. The failure could be the ICE vehicle or the Tesla. ;)

WTF are you talking about ??. How was the Tesla going to start an ICE car ? I didn't see that in that video at all !

Sir lastnail wrote on May 17^th, 2018 at 6:23pm:

WTF are you talking about ??. How was the Tesla going to start an ICE car ? I didn't see that in that video at all !

As i said it was some time ago. perhaps a different youtube.

You do understand batteries and how they can jump start vehicles?

I don't take much notice of youtube.

lee wrote on May 17^th, 2018 at 6:48pm:

Sir lastnail wrote on May 17th, 2018 at 6:23pm: WTF are you talking about ??. How was the Tesla going to start an ICE car ? I didn't see that in that video at all ! As i said it was some time ago. perhaps a different youtube. You do understand batteries and how they can jump start vehicles? I don't take much notice of youtube.

A 300 Volt battery is not going to be suitable for jump starting unless you want to start a fire ! Had you watched the video you would have realized the ICE car in question had a fully charged battery and been on a block warmer for some time and they still couldn't start it !!

Geez them Gloablly Warmed Greeny types don't like to be held up to ridicule but what else can you do with the warped waffle they come out with ?

In cold weather the range drops dramatically as the battery doesn't like cold weather. This is FACT as reported by a Tesla owner in either Canada or USA.

From a sorry owner
Technically the cold may not impact the battery life … but it impacts the reality of the cars performance dramatically.

I’ve a Model X that positively eats the kwh if it gets mild, let alone cold. The lack of regen braking at ambient temperatures of 12 degrees celsius or less moves the average kwh/km from 290 up to around 390. On short school run trips (of about 2–3km) you’ll be lucky to say on the right side of 475kwh/km. The Amazon rainforest won’t thank you for that!

Perhaps it’s not all the regen braking’s fault … a lot of kwh seems to be spent keeping the windows from constantly fogging up! With limited visibility out the back, and the side ones coated in fog… driving a brand new Tesla Model X in cold weather is a fairly polluting and one dimensional experience.


But back to practical reality which the Greeny types deny exists or just don't want to know about.

Who wants to muck around for half an hour just to refuel a car ? Assuming you don't have to wait an hour or so just to join the queue at the charger.

Who wants to risk being burnt alive if the lithium battery explodes right under you ? Or get cancer from exposure from sitting on the high voltage cables ?

Who wants to risk being in a car that has not been fully tested for software and hardware bugs and can suddenly accelerate without warning ?

Who wants to be a guinea pig to test for bugs in the still experimental car ?

Who wants to deal with very unhelpful service depts when something needs fixing ?

Who wants to get stuck with a flat battery in the event of a hold up on the freeway or blocked exit ?

Sir lastnail wrote on May 17^th, 2018 at 7:32pm:

A 300 Volt battery is not going to be suitable for jump starting unless you want to start a fire

Is that why Tesla's burn so well?

And Tesla is not so hot in Norway despite the Greeny type's frozen uninformed waffle.


Many owners with UMC problems in Norway, specially during cold weather
Discussion in 'Model S: Battery & Charging' started by Newbie, Jan 13, 2014.

Location:World #1Newbie, Jan 13, 2014
From a norwegian forum, a forum member sent an mail to leading Tesla Motor company leaders :

"Since the arrival of the Model S in Norway there has been a steady amount of reported problems conserning charging and trouble with the UMC.
This culminated yesteday with a pretty harsh thread being started on the electric car forum.
Our winter did not really get cold until yesterday, and when it got cold it seems like a lot of norwegian Teslas could not cope with the conditions. I myself had severe problems getting the car started and charging had stopped shortly after being initiated.

The Tesla dealers in Norway seems to have little understanding of the problem and keeps blaming user error or handing out new UMC's which also seems to have the exact same problems.
The challenge Tesla faces regarding the norwegian power grid is also often mentioned, this seems irrelevant as third party providers can supply adapters/cables which produces absolutley no problems. Nissan owners also reports having owned the Leaf for years with no faults, but often have to latch/unlatch the cable several times on the Model S to get charging started. And even when it charges they can never trust it to be completed, even the fear of the dreaded empty 12V battery still plagues us.

Several members of the society do not see any other solution than bringing this to the national media in the hope that negative exposure will wake the Tesla organization up.
I hope that this can be avoided if Tesla steps up and addresses the problem and above all keeps the buyers informed about problems and solutions. As of now we all feel left out in the dark with no solution in sight.

I will provide a link to the mentioned thread, unfortunately it is all in norwegian but I hope you will take the time to get some translations done. I've already seen the thread being linked on other manufacturer specific sites and the "Tesla opposition" seems to love it.

This mail is not written as a personal complaint from me, but as a friendly warning about the problem and a measure to ensure all links of your organization is aware that the Model S as of yet is not a capable winter car here in Norway. This will hopefully be rectified shortly."



Oyvind.H MODEL X Location:Oslo, Norway Jan 13, 2014
I wish Tesla would spend more time making Model S a good winter car, instead of just advertising it as a good winter car. Frozen windows, 12V problems, massive UMC breakdowns, strange error messages, parking sensors who stop working with the slightest hint of snow on the bumpers. The list is quite long for an "excellent winter performer"..... Things could get ugly in norwegian media now :( Potential PR disaster in Teslas second largest market, and mainly because Tesla is unable to make a good UMC.

Real EoN Location:Molde, Norway Jan 13, 2014
Agreed Oyvind.H .
I am sad Tesla have not taken this more serious, and fixed the UMC for Norwegian IT Power grid. I can not stop and start charge and end up sometimes with an error after charge. And even sometimes it wont draw amps when UMC an car flashes green.
Can not leave UMC Connected to car because of empty 12V battery fear :(
I am very close to demand Tesla to cover the expence of a UMC from mennekes that just works.. every time.

patp Location:Canada  Jan 13, 2014
Oyvind.H said:
I wish Tesla would spend more time making Model S a good winter car, instead of just advertising it as a good winter car. Frozen windows, 12V problems, massive UMC breakdowns, strange error messages, parking sensors who stop working with the slightest hint of snow on the bumpers. The list is quite long for an "excellent winter performer"..... Things could get ugly in norwegian media now :( Potential PR disaster in Teslas second largest market, and mainly because Tesla is unable to make a good UMC.
+1 - Tesla has vastly exaggerated the winter performance of the Model S. It's good, but not great. They should have waited a complete "norwegian" winter before starting to brag. Like they say under promise, over deliver. Also, like I said last year, they should have full time engineers LIVING in extreme cold climates.
The very good news is that since Norway is such a huge market for Tesla, they will have to adjust. Last winter, I was one of the few Canadian that bought a Model S and I felt really alone. They made progress since then, but it's still not enough.

Read the very many other cold weather problems in Norway here

https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/many-owners-with-umc-problems-in-norway-specially-during-cold-weather.26085/

juliar wrote on May 17^th, 2018 at 8:07pm:

And Tesla is not so hot in Norway despite the Greeny type's frozen uninformed waffle. Many owners with UMC problems in Norway, specially during cold weather Discussion in 'Model S: Battery & Charging' started by Newbie, Jan 13, 2014. Location:World #1Newbie, Jan 13, 2014 From a norwegian forum, a forum member sent an mail to leading Tesla Motor company leaders : "Since the arrival of the Model S in Norway there has been a steady amount of reported problems conserning charging and trouble with the UMC. This culminated yesteday with a pretty harsh thread being started on the electric car forum. Our winter did not really get cold until yesterday, and when it got cold it seems like a lot of norwegian Teslas could not cope with the conditions. I myself had severe problems getting the car started and charging had stopped shortly after being initiated. The Tesla dealers in Norway seems to have little understanding of the problem and keeps blaming user error or handing out new UMC's which also seems to have the exact same problems. The challenge Tesla faces regarding the norwegian power grid is also often mentioned, this seems irrelevant as third party providers can supply adapters/cables which produces absolutley no problems. Nissan owners also reports having owned the Leaf for years with no faults, but often have to latch/unlatch the cable several times on the Model S to get charging started. And even when it charges they can never trust it to be completed, even the fear of the dreaded empty 12V battery still plagues us. Several members of the society do not see any other solution than bringing this to the national media in the hope that negative exposure will wake the Tesla organization up. I hope that this can be avoided if Tesla steps up and addresses the problem and above all keeps the buyers informed about problems and solutions. As of now we all feel left out in the dark with no solution in sight. I will provide a link to the mentioned thread, unfortunately it is all in norwegian but I hope you will take the time to get some translations done. I've already seen the thread being linked on other manufacturer specific sites and the "Tesla opposition" seems to love it. This mail is not written as a personal complaint from me, but as a friendly warning about the problem and a measure to ensure all links of your organization is aware that the Model S as of yet is not a capable winter car here in Norway. This will hopefully be rectified shortly." Oyvind.H MODEL X Location:Oslo, Norway Jan 13, 2014 I wish Tesla would spend more time making Model S a good winter car, instead of just advertising it as a good winter car. Frozen windows, 12V problems, massive UMC breakdowns, strange error messages, parking sensors who stop working with the slightest hint of snow on the bumpers. The list is quite long for an "excellent winter performer"..... Things could get ugly in norwegian media now :( Potential PR disaster in Teslas second largest market, and mainly because Tesla is unable to make a good UMC. Real EoN Location:Molde, Norway Jan 13, 2014 Agreed Oyvind.H . I am sad Tesla have not taken this more serious, and fixed the UMC for Norwegian IT Power grid. I can not stop and start charge and end up sometimes with an error after charge. And even sometimes it wont draw amps when UMC an car flashes green. Can not leave UMC Connected to car because of empty 12V battery fear :( I am very close to demand Tesla to cover the expence of a UMC from mennekes that just works.. every time. patp Location:Canada  Jan 13, 2014 Oyvind.H said: I wish Tesla would spend more time making Model S a good winter car, instead of just advertising it as a good winter car. Frozen windows, 12V problems, massive UMC breakdowns, strange error messages, parking sensors who stop working with the slightest hint of snow on the bumpers. The list is quite long for an "excellent winter performer"..... Things could get ugly in norwegian media now :( Potential PR disaster in Teslas second largest market, and mainly because Tesla is unable to make a good UMC. +1 - Tesla has vastly exaggerated the winter performance of the Model S. It's good, but not great. They should have waited a complete "norwegian" winter before starting to brag. Like they say under promise, over deliver. Also, like I said last year, they should have full time engineers LIVING in extreme cold climates. The very good news is that since Norway is such a huge market for Tesla, they will have to adjust. Last winter, I was one of the few Canadian that bought a Model S and I felt really alone. They made progress since then, but it's still not enough. Read the very many other cold weather problems in Norway here https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/many-owners-with-umc-problems-in-norway-specially-during-cold-weather.26085/

Ohh dear try some from this year Jules not 4 years ago, ohh wait Tesla adressed the cold issues and as the artical I posted said cold weather no problems now, get with the times man.. ;) ;) ;) ;).

juliar wrote on May 17^th, 2018 at 7:55pm:

Geez them Gloablly Warmed Greeny types don't like to beheld up to ridicule but what else can you do with the warped waffle they come out with ? In cold weather the range drops dramatically as the battery doesn't like cold weather. This is FACT as reported by a Tesla owner in either Canada or USA. From a sorry owner Technically the cold may not impact the battery life … but it impacts the reality of the cars performance dramatically. I’ve a Model X that positively eats the kwh if it gets mild, let alone cold. The lack of regen braking at ambient temperatures of 12 degrees celsius or less moves the average kwh/km from 290 up to around 390. On short school run trips (of about 2–3km) you’ll be lucky to say on the right side of 475kwh/km. The Amazon rainforest won’t thank you for that! Perhaps it’s not all the regen braking’s fault … a lot of kwh seems to be spent keeping the windows from constantly fogging up! With limited visibility out the back, and the side ones coated in fog… driving a brand new Tesla Model X in cold weather is a fairly polluting and one dimensional experience. But back to practical reality which the Greeny types deny exists or just don't want to know about. Who wants to muck around for half an hour just to refuel a car ? Assuming you don't have to wait an hour or so just to join the queue at the charger. Who wants to risk being burnt alive if the lithium battery explodes right under you ? Or get cancer from exposure from sitting on the high voltage cables ? Who wants to risk being in a car that has not been fully tested for software and hardware bugs and can suddenly accelerate without warning ? Who wants to be a guinea pig to test for bugs in the still experimental car ? Who wants to deal with very unhelpful service depts when something needs fixing ? Who wants to get stuck with a flat battery in the event of a hold up on the freeway or blocked exit ?

Ahh Jules read the thread u will see all these questions answered but don’t let that get in the road of a good insult or rant hehe. As I said when u want to discuss all the stuff u say let me know. ;) ;)

lee wrote on May 17^th, 2018 at 7:55pm:

Sir lastnail wrote on May 17th, 2018 at 7:32pm: A 300 Volt battery is not going to be suitable for jump starting unless you want to start a fire Is that why Tesla's burn so well?

Heh just as well as the hundreds of ice cars that catch on fire every day in USA  ;) ;)

The Globally Warmed Greeny Hippy Type is showing amazing intelligence copying a long post and then adding 1 line of dribbling waffle. Typical uninformed impractical Greeny type. They are all like this - so boring and such a waste of space.

And it is not to hot in Chicago either despite the Greeny type's uninformed waffle.



COLD WEATHER RANGE LOSS.

Submitted by Gilanis on Mon, 2016-01-18 17:05
With the advent of winter in Chicago my 2015 Tesla 85D 4 months old / driven 5000 miles looses almost 40-50% range.

Jan 18th - The car was charged to 237 and was preheated to 72 deg F before leaving the garage. Drove 106.3 miles and had only 44miles left on the battery range indicator (yellow battery icon) - outside temperature 6deg F. NET LOSS OF RANGE 87 miles (the 44 miles would only have given me a another 20+ miles of range.in which the loss would have been 107 miles on one trip.
Dec 23rd - This loss of range was noticed earlier LOSING 70 miles on a full daily charge outside temp 42 deg F.

Tesla tech had advised me to preheat the car after Dec 23rd issue to heat the car which also triggers the heating of battery pack 30 m before leaving. Heating the battery pack apparently draws a lot of power to heat the battery - pumps - coolant heater etc - they also advised me to keep it plugged in at all times when not in use at home.

DAILY LOSS PARKED IN GARAGE IS 3 to 7 miles. Please let me know for those living in cold weather areas if you have noticed similar loss of range as I would like TESLA to remedy this.

Neko | 18 January, 2016
Also in Chicago. I see exactly the same issues. Getting about half the normal range, especially in the really cold weather of the last few days (near 0 degrees). I thought it would improve if I weren't taking such short trips, but from your experience, it seems that is not the case.

I assume a lot of energy is going into keeping the battery warm. And I have almost no regen available for several miles of a trip, and that is going to give mileage a real hit as well.

Of course, it's disappointing, but I assume this is physics and am not going to make a fuss about it.

PhillyGal | 18 January, 2016
Losing range in cold is a very well known and well documented condition native to batteries. It's nothing something Tesla can necessarily "remedy" though I'm sure they are experimenting to see if they can lessen the effects.

But there's also a lot more that could be contributing to your range loss including driving into headwinds, elevation changes and high speeds.

Rocky_H | 18 January, 2016
Something you might also try both ways is with and without Range Mode turned on. The battery heater is tied into that setting. With Range Mode turned on, the car will not use the battery heater as much, saving that quite significant energy drain, but regen will be limited for much longer, since the battery will be staying colder. It's a tradeoff you have available.

mjy680 | 18 January, 2016
Yes. As noted, this is due to physics and not really negotiable!
I live in Chicago as well- my S behaves as does yours, losing 1/3 to 1/2 expected mileage during the past sev days. My W usage is approx 400/ mile. We need to move to a warmer city!

hcwhy | 18 January, 2016
I use the 50% loss figure when figuring my real range in bitterly cold weather. I find it's pretty accurate. Range isn't a big issue for me as most of my trips aren't that far and I keep the car plugged in between trips. I drive at normal speeds and use heat as desired.

David Trushin | 18 January, 2016
Today i drove from south bend to chicago in 0-5 degree temps and 13 mph headwind. Stated with 245 ended with 80, 136 miles total. I preheated the car so the regen line was at 60 for about 12 miles and then went away. Had heater at 69 with fan at 2, but the sun was bright so it was fine in the cabin. Had range mode off, but i always have it off. It's most efficient to drive with the battery at optimum operating temperature. I was pleased with the performance.

Red Sage ca us | 18 January, 2016
The temporary decrease in range is not a 'loss'. A loss would be permanent, irreversible. You have a temporary decrease in available range when towing, driving uphill, or traveling during inclement weather conditions in ALL vehicles. It is simply more pronounced with electric vehicles, because currently, the energy reserves stored in battery packs are so small as compared to fuel tanks in ICE vehicles.

Johann @IS | 19 January, 2016
ICE vehicles do this too, they just hide it better as they already waste so much energy making heat and noise.

graeme | 19 January, 2016
I'm planning a trip to the French Alps. The last leg of the journey is 65 miles uphill in snow (and back to the supercharger). When I asked Tesla if I would be OK for the round trip in my P90D they said it would be fine and I was just suffering range anxiety.
Not so sure now, I may need a friendly native to donate a socket for a few hours !

Anthony J. Parisio | 19 January, 2016
graeme,
Yes even if it is to keep it plugged in and warned before you return. This will give you the most carefree experience.

Heaps more complaints about Tesla's frigid performance here

https://forums.tesla.com/en_AU/forum/forums/cold-weather-range-loss

juliar wrote on May 17^th, 2018 at 8:17pm:

The Globally Warmed Greeny Hippy Type is showing amazing intelligence copying a long post and then adding 1 line of dribbling waffle. Typical uninformed impractical Greeny type. They are all like this - so boring and such a waste of space. And it is not to hot in Chicago either despite the Greeny type's uninformed waffle. COLD WEATHER RANGE LOSS. Submitted by Gilanis on Mon, 2016-01-18 17:05 With the advent of winter in Chicago my 2015 Tesla 85D 4 months old / driven 5000 miles looses almost 40-50% range. Jan 18th - The car was charged to 237 and was preheated to 72 deg F before leaving the garage. Drove 106.3 miles and had only 44miles left on the battery range indicator (yellow battery icon) - outside temperature 6deg F. NET LOSS OF RANGE 87 miles (the 44 miles would only have given me a another 20+ miles of range.in which the loss would have been 107 miles on one trip. Dec 23rd - This loss of range was noticed earlier LOSING 70 miles on a full daily charge outside temp 42 deg F. Tesla tech had advised me to preheat the car after Dec 23rd issue to heat the car which also triggers the heating of battery pack 30 m before leaving. Heating the battery pack apparently draws a lot of power to heat the battery - pumps - coolant heater etc - they also advised me to keep it plugged in at all times when not in use at home. DAILY LOSS PARKED IN GARAGE IS 3 to 7 miles. Please let me know for those living in cold weather areas if you have noticed similar loss of range as I would like TESLA to remedy this. Neko | 18 January, 2016 Also in Chicago. I see exactly the same issues. Getting about half the normal range, especially in the really cold weather of the last few days (near 0 degrees). I thought it would improve if I weren't taking such short trips, but from your experience, it seems that is not the case. I assume a lot of energy is going into keeping the battery warm. And I have almost no regen available for several miles of a trip, and that is going to give mileage a real hit as well. Of course, it's disappointing, but I assume this is physics and am not going to make a fuss about it. PhillyGal | 18 January, 2016 Losing range in cold is a very well known and well documented condition native to batteries. It's nothing something Tesla can necessarily "remedy" though I'm sure they are experimenting to see if they can lessen the effects. But there's also a lot more that could be contributing to your range loss including driving into headwinds, elevation changes and high speeds. Rocky_H | 18 January, 2016 Something you might also try both ways is with and without Range Mode turned on. The battery heater is tied into that setting. With Range Mode turned on, the car will not use the battery heater as much, saving that quite significant energy drain, but regen will be limited for much longer, since the battery will be staying colder. It's a tradeoff you have available. mjy680 | 18 January, 2016 Yes. As noted, this is due to physics and not really negotiable! I live in Chicago as well- my S behaves as does yours, losing 1/3 to 1/2 expected mileage during the past sev days. My W usage is approx 400/ mile. We need to move to a warmer city! hcwhy | 18 January, 2016 I use the 50% loss figure when figuring my real range in bitterly cold weather. I find it's pretty accurate. Range isn't a big issue for me as most of my trips aren't that far and I keep the car plugged in between trips. I drive at normal speeds and use heat as desired. David Trushin | 18 January, 2016 Today i drove from south bend to chicago in 0-5 degree temps and 13 mph headwind. Stated with 245 ended with 80, 136 miles total. I preheated the car so the regen line was at 60 for about 12 miles and then went away. Had heater at 69 with fan at 2, but the sun was bright so it was fine in the cabin. Had range mode off, but i always have it off. It's most efficient to drive with the battery at optimum operating temperature. I was pleased with the performance. Red Sage ca us | 18 January, 2016 The temporary decrease in range is not a 'loss'. A loss would be permanent, irreversible. You have a temporary decrease in available range when towing, driving uphill, or traveling during inclement weather conditions in ALL vehicles graeme | 19 January, 2016 I'm planning a trip to the French Alps. The last leg of the journey is 65 miles uphill in snow (and back to the supercharger). When I asked Tesla if I would be OK for the round trip in my P90D they said it would be fine and I was just suffering range anxiety. Not so sure now, I may need a friendly native to donate a socket for a few hours ! Anthony J. Parisio | 19 January, 2016 graeme, Yes even if it is to keep it plugged in and warned before you return. This will give you the most carefree experience. Heaps more complaints about Tesla's frigid performance here https://forums.tesla.com/en_AU/forum/forums/cold-weather-range-loss

Well any u can find from dec last year when Tesla did a fix for cold weather, I hear last winter was a bad one. Ohh and the joy of Tesla when the find a fix every car in the fleet get fixed for free, name any other car manufacturer that will upgrade a old car..... ;) ;) ;)

The Greeny DDh is obsessed with copying another posters work and then adding 1 line of dribbling waffle. Greeny types often do this simplistic waste of space.

Now this article just goes to show why NOBODY ever believes ANYTHING that oozes out of an impractical technically unaware Greeny.



Tesla Model 3 Range Loss In Bitter Cold
BY STEVEN LOVEDAY JAN 10 2018

VIDEO: Range loss in the bitter cold | Model 3 Owners Club

How much range loss should you expect in the Tesla Model 3 in bitterly cold weather?

Much of the U.S. and Canada has been in the midst of a frigid cold snap over the last few weeks. Some areas have experienced sub-zero temperatures for several days in a row. It’s no secret that EV range is impacted by the cold weather for multiple reasons. In fact, all cars experience decreased efficiency in cold weather.

While ICE vehicles may not see as much range loss, cold temps may cause them to run rough or even not start. This isn’t the case with EVs like the Tesla Model 3, however, with only a couple hundred miles of overall range, a significant loss can prove problematic.

Model 3 Owners Club founder Trevor Page fills us in with some additional details about how the Tesla Model 3 differs from the S and X when it comes to range loss and cold weather.

Basically, the Model 3 doesn’t have a battery heater but instead uses waste heat to attempt to warm the pack. This isn’t as efficient as the systems in the Model S and X and also leads to issues when it comes to Supercharging. The battery simply won’t charge as fast if it’s not kept warm.

Page mentions the recent and ongoing Tesla Model 3 Road Trip and the weather-related issues You You Xue has experienced, especially in Canada, that have made the trip a struggle, including the concern mentioned above.

Needless to say, if you plan on owning a Model 3 in an area that experiences extreme cold on a regular basis, you’re going to see considerable range loss. Additionally, plan on spending a significant amount of time charging. It also seems that there is some correlation with areas that experience these type of temps also being areas not having an abundance of Superchargers.

https://insideevs.com/tesla-model-3-range-loss-bitter-cold-video/

juliar wrote on May 17^th, 2018 at 9:02pm:

The Greeny DDh is obsessed with copying another posters work and then adding 1 line of dribbling waffle. Greeny types often do this simplistic waste of space.u Now this article just goes to show why NOBODY ever believes ANYTHING that oozes out of an impractical technically unaware Greeny. Tesla Model 3 Range Loss In Bitter Cold BY STEVEN LOVEDAY JAN 10 2018 VIDEO: Range loss in the bitter cold | Model 3 Owners Club How much range loss should you expect in the Tesla Model 3 in bitterly cold weather? Much of the U.S. and Canada has been in the midst of a frigid cold snap over the last few weeks. Some areas have experienced sub-zero temperatures for several days in a row. It’s no secret that EV range is impacted by the cold weather for multiple reasons. In fact, all cars experience decreased efficiency in cold weather. While ICE vehicles may not see as much range loss, cold temps may cause them to run rough or even not start. This isn’t the case with EVs like the Tesla Model 3, however, with only a couple hundred miles of overall range, a significant loss can prove problematic. Model 3 Owners Club founder Trevor Page fills us in with some additional details about how the Tesla Model 3 differs from the S and X when it comes to range loss and cold weather. Basically, the Model 3 doesn’t have a battery heater but instead uses waste heat to attempt to warm the pack. This isn’t as efficient as the systems in the Model S and X and also leads to issues when it comes to Supercharging. The battery simply won’t charge as fast if it’s not kept warm. Page mentions the recent and ongoing Tesla Model 3 Road Trip and the weather-related issues You You Xue has experienced, especially in Canada, that have made the trip a struggle, including the concern mentioned above. Needless to say, if you plan on owning a Model 3 in an area that experiences extreme cold on a regular basis, you’re going to see considerable range loss. Additionally, plan on spending a significant amount of time charging. It also seems that there is some correlation with areas that experience these type of temps also being areas not having an abundance of Superchargers. https://insideevs.com/tesla-model-3-range-loss-bitter-cold-video/

Ohh your completely right there the Model 3 doesn’t have a battery heater like the S or X or Chevy and I think the Nissan ? So I suppose no 3s in the snow till they fix that. Still 450000 people r waiting for one and Canadians mustn’t care.
Want to address the other rot u mentioned I don’t mind , prove me wrong again  :) :)
Ohh and u won’t win me over with you sweet talk either Jules  ;) ;)

The copy another poster's work and add 1 line of dribbling waffle Greeny type is at it again. What a waste of space. Classic Greeny mindset in concrete.

But ignoring the boring and back to Tesla's financial problems.

And now the huge VW has bought a huge number of batteries and once it starts production it will wipe Tesla out very quickly.

Musk has made so many blunders like setting up his factory in non automobile California where there are no workers experienced in automobile manufacture and releasing potentially dangerous cars that have not been fully tested for particularly software bugs is a recipe for disaster and he doesn't have much competition as yet.

But now China is using electric cars to reduce car pollution in their cities but increase pollution from the coal fired power stations the big car makers are getting interested in supplying the mass market in China.

For Tesla holding off bankruptcy is an ever present problem along with their ever present poorly set up production line problem.



Tesla risks a blowout as problems mount, but fans keep the hype machine in overdrive. And no one knows what CEO Elon Musk might have up his sleeve
Aaron Saltzman · CBC News · Posted: Apr 21, 2018 4:00 AM ET | Last Updated: April 22

https://i.cbc.ca/1.4628544.1524248570!/fileImage/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/16x9_780/tesla-licence-plate.jpg
The licence plate of a loyal Tesla owner proudly proclaims the car's environmental advantages. (Andy Hincenberg/CBC)

Tesla is beset by production problems and swimming in debt, its bonds are considered junk status, its stock has more people betting against it than any other major company. There are real concerns it won't be able to raise enough cash to keep going.

But even with all its problems, there are still very good reasons to believe in the world's best known electric car maker.

"I have absolute confidence that the Model 3 production problems will be solved and that it will be a successful car," says Melissa Schilling, business professor at New York University's Stern School of Business and author of Quirky: The Remarkable Story of the Traits, Foibles, and Genius of Breakthrough Innovators Who Changed the World.

Tesla has suspended production of its Model 3 for the second time since February. The car is the company's first mass market vehicle and is a key component in Tesla's future success.

Tesla had said it would produce 20,000 Model 3s per month by the end of last year. But it only managed to make about 2,500 cars in the last three months of 2017 combined.

https://i.cbc.ca/1.4623268.1524240838!/fileImage/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/original_780/tesla-challenges.jpg
Tesla Motors CEO Elon Musk unveils company products in 2015 in Hawthorne, Calif. (Ringo H.W. Chiu/Associated Press)

The problems with the Model 3 have been so acute that Tesla CEO Elon Musk has reportedly been sleeping at the factory in Fremont, Calif., since personally taking over responsibility for production of the $35,000 US vehicle.

The issues with the Model 3 cap a recent series of setbacks for the company. Last month, there was a fatal crash involving the company's famed driver assist technology called Autopilot. A week later, Tesla recalled more than 120,000 Model S's due to a faulty steering mechanism.

There is also a shareholder lawsuit over Tesla's takeover of SolarCity, a solar energy company run by Musk's cousins.

Tesla shareholders approve Elon Musk pay package that could net him $50B US
Tesla's Musk hands over first Model 3 electric cars to early buyers

But by far the biggest problems for Tesla are financial. It is spending more than it earns, piling up debt, Moody's recently downgraded its credit rating.

"I worry. I worry a lot about this company," says Charley Grant, who writes the column Heard on the Street for the Wall Street Journal.

https://i.cbc.ca/1.4628574.1524248752!/fileImage/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/original_780/charley-grant.jpg
Charley Grant, a columnist at the Wall Street Journal, says Tesla is on shaky footing financially. (Dave MacIntosh/CBC)

Grant says Tesla's shaky financial position is further undermined by the issues with the Model 3.

"You almost never see a public company miss its guidance by that much," says Grant.

"It's a real issue because if anyone loses confidence in this company, they depend on having a high stock price to actually fund the business operations."

Burning through cash
Because Tesla isn't making a profit it doesn't have any cash to finance growth or cover losses. A new bond issue would be very difficult; lenders would either be frightened off by Tesla's balance sheet or they'd demand an outsized interest rate.

That leaves a new equity offering, but Tesla can really only issue new shares if the stock price stays high. And Tesla stock has been volatile recently on all the bad news.

"People are worried that investors are being sold a bill of goods that might never come to fruition, ever," says Grant.

Even with all that doom and gloom, though, Grant and others say there are still plenty of reasons to believe in Tesla, not least its CEO.

The saga of Tesla disaster continues overleaf

The saga of Tesla disaster continues...

"Elon Musk is a celebrated visionary. That's why people love him. He's made products that people really like and he's done incredible things in the space exploration project, landing a rocket on a barge," says Grant.

Musk is one of the innovators featured in Schilling's book, along with Steve Jobs, Marie Curie and Thomas Edison. And Schilling says Musk is the main reason she and others are still bullish on Tesla.

https://i.cbc.ca/1.4628563.1524248908!/fileImage/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/original_780/melissa-schilling.jpg
Musk is one of the serial innovators Melissa Schilling studied for her book Quirky: The Remarkable Story of the Traits, Foibles, and Genius of Breakthrough Innovators Who Changed the World. (Dave MacIntosh/CBC)

"I think a lot of the people who are in the stock are betting on him, right? They're not looking at the company and doing any kind of math, they're just betting on him," says Schilling

"And I think that's a reasonable bet because he is brilliant.  He can do advanced physical calculus in his head real-time and he thinks 10 steps out. So he's probably done the math, he's probably got a plan, and they are betting that he's got a plan and that it's a great one and that it might not even be one we could understand yet."

As evidence of that, Schilling points to Musk's compensation package. He doesn't get a salary. Rather, he will be eligible for about $2.6 billion in stock options, but only if Tesla hits certain milestones over the next 10 years, one of them being a total company valuation of $650 billion. That's about 10 times the current size of General Motors.

"It's difficult for me to come up with any math that lends itself to thinking you're going to have that market valuation strictly on an auto company," says Schilling.

"But I don't think his plan is to be strictly an auto company."

Priceless consumer loyalty
Schilling says it's far harder to predict future value of the battery production and grid energy storage parts of Tesla's business. She also wouldn't rule out a merger, another way to get to that lofty $650 billion valuation.

Finally, there is another significant asset that Tesla has that simply doesn't show up on the company's bottom line: the fervent loyalty of its customers.

"It is almost a cult," says John Dixon, head on the Tesla Owners Club of Ontario.

Dixon, who owns a Model X, his third Tesla, and has a Model 3 on order, says there are a number of reasons why he and his members have such faith in Musk. For Dixon, they start with his vehicle.

https://i.cbc.ca/1.4628580.1524249049!/fileImage/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/original_780/tesla-s-driving-in-ontario.jpg
Ontario Tesla drivers take part in a rally near Toronto to raise visibility of the company and its vehicles. (Rob Krbavac/CBC)

"This car, it's quiet, it's relaxing to drive, it's fast when I want it to be, it's got all the technology you would ever want, it's great for a family, and I don't have to buy gas," he says.

"There is next to no service needed. You're not doing oil changes, you're not doing fluid flushes, the brakes last longer because of the regenerative braking."

Members of his club speak to various groups, extolling the virtues of their vehicles, and they've even worked the Tesla booth at the Canadian International AutoShow, all for free.

They do it because of a belief in the car and in the company's CEO.

"He truly believes in the vision of reducing our carbon footprint and reducing the pollution that cars put into the atmosphere," says Dixon.

 
VIDEO:Aaron Saltzman reports on the latest in a series of issues at Tesla

http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/tesla-electric-vehicles-ev-environment-cars-emissions-1.4624510

juliar wrote on May 17^th, 2018 at 7:55pm:

Geez them Gloablly Warmed Greeny types don't like to beheld up to ridicule but what else can you do with the warped waffle they come out with ? In cold weather the range drops dramatically as the battery doesn't like cold weather. This is FACT as reported by a Tesla owner in either Canada or USA. From a sorry owner Technically the cold may not impact the battery life … but it impacts the reality of the cars performance dramatically. I’ve a Model X that positively eats the kwh if it gets mild, let alone cold. The lack of regen braking at ambient temperatures of 12 degrees celsius or less moves the average kwh/km from 290 up to around 390. On short school run trips (of about 2–3km) you’ll be lucky to say on the right side of 475kwh/km. The Amazon rainforest won’t thank you for that! Perhaps it’s not all the regen braking’s fault … a lot of kwh seems to be spent keeping the windows from constantly fogging up! With limited visibility out the back, and the side ones coated in fog… driving a brand new Tesla Model X in cold weather is a fairly polluting and one dimensional experience. But back to practical reality which the Greeny types deny exists or just don't want to know about. Who wants to muck around for half an hour just to refuel a car ? Assuming you don't have to wait an hour or so just to join the queue at the charger. Who wants to risk being burnt alive if the lithium battery explodes right under you ? Or get cancer from exposure from sitting on the high voltage cables ? Who wants to risk being in a car that has not been fully tested for software and hardware bugs and can suddenly accelerate without warning ? Who wants to be a guinea pig to test for bugs in the still experimental car ? Who wants to deal with very unhelpful service depts when something needs fixing ? Who wants to get stuck with a flat battery in the event of a hold up on the freeway or blocked exit ?

And who wants an ICE car that won't start at all in a cold climate because the oil or petrol has frozen ? That is effectively a zero range car !!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YFLlk-22a4U

The impractical technically bereft would be Greeny LostSnail shows again how little he knows or understands about the already obsolete all electric cars.

One sees he uses the well worn out Greeny trick of copying another poster's work to make his one line of added dribbling waffle look even worse.

But enough of the irrelevancy of boring Greeny style off topic SCAMMING and back to Tesla's financial dilemmas.

Has Musky bitten off more than he can chew ?



Tesla has a problem - and it's not the Model 3
By Brian Eckhouse & Molly SmithUpdated7 April 2018 — 9:41amfirst published at 9:39am

With all the car-making troubles that are hounding Tesla these days -- from the Model 3 bottlenecks to the furious cash burn -- it's easy to overlook the company's SolarCity headache.

But 16 months after Chief Executive Officer Elon Musk kicked up controversy by acquiring the solar-panel installer founded by two of his cousins, its obligations are a strain on Tesla's finances. The $US2 billion purchase came with a $US2.9 billion debt load, and a chunk of that is soon coming due.

https://s31.postimg.cc/b0kl5zvij/musky.jpg
The debt deadline adds to the pressure on Elon Musk, whose company burns cash at a rate of $8,170 a minute.
Photo: AP

That's bad timing for a company churning through about $US6,500 ($8,170) a minute and trying to stave off the need for another capital raise.
"SolarCity debt may not be the immediate cause of Tesla's problems, but it certainly isn't helping right now," said Alexander Diaz-Matos, an analyst at credit research firm Covenant Review.
Tesla representatives declined to comment for this story. The solar business generated positive cash flow last year, according to the company.

Debt coming due
Tesla's debt runs the gamut -- convertible bonds, promissory notes, term loans, cash-equity debt, asset-backed securities. Most of the total is tied to Tesla the automaker.
For investors, the focus has largely been on the cash burn linked to struggles speeding up production of the Model 3, the sedan Musk is betting will be the first to bring electric cars to the masses. There's also fresh concern over Tesla's Autopilot after the fatal crash of a Model X last month that occurred while the driver-assistance system was engaged.

Tesla shares plunged 22 per cent in March and closed at $US252.48 on April 2, the lowest in more than a year. They climbed 21 per cent through Thursday, after the company stood by its next Model 3 production target and said an equity or debt raise won't be required this year. The stock traded down 2 per cent to $US299.67 as of 11:31 am Friday in New York.

Ratings downgrade
The SolarCity debt is mostly non-recourse, meaning Tesla doesn't guarantee repayment; SolarCity does. That's backed by cash flow and assets. It's still included in Tesla's overall debt, though, which is used to determine credit ratings and impacts borrowing costs. Of Tesla's $US10 billion of total debt outstanding, about $US3 billion is non-recourse, most of which comes from SolarCity.
Mounting financial pressures, in addition to the Model 3 shortfalls, spurred Moody's Investors Service's downgrade of Tesla's credit rating last week to B3, six levels below investment grade.

In recent months, Tesla's solar business lost the residential-solar throne to rival Sunrun, a San Francisco-based installer with a market capitalisation about half the SolarCity purchase price. Tesla ceded market share as it attempted to boost energy-unit profitability and scrapped SolarCity's costly door-to-door retail sales strategy.

That was a smart move, according to Ross Gerber, co-founder of Gerber Kawasaki Wealth & Investment Management, which oversees more than $US10 million in Tesla shares and options. He criticised the SolarCity deal but is still bullish on the company and Musk.  "SolarCity was probably going to go bankrupt," Gerber said.

While more than 85 per cent of Tesla shareholders supported the 2016 acquisition, a loud minority contended Musk engineered it to rescue SolarCity from swelling debt. He was SolarCity's chairman and largest financier.
Before the deal was completed, Musk tweeted that while Tesla would absorb SolarCity's debt, he would "pay it personally if need be."

Last week, a judge in Delaware ruled that shareholders who allege Musk duped them into backing the purchase could proceed with a lawsuit, saying they'd produced enough evidence showing the deal may have been flawed by conflicts of interest. Tesla said in a statement that the allegations are false and that it would take appropriate next steps in the case.

The Tesla disaster waiting to happen continues overleaf

The Tesla disaster waiting to happen continues...

One-stop shop
For his part, Musk hasn't wavered from his commitment to turn Tesla into a one-stop shop selling solar panels to capture power, devices to store the energy and cars that can be charged in the garage.

The company started producing photovoltaic glass tiles in December at a factory in Buffalo, New York, and has begun selling solar at some of its own stores and through retailer Home Depot.

In the meantime, the bills have to be paid.

"SolarCity debt, in and of itself, is a burden," said Hitin Anand, an analyst at CreditSights. "It is incremental debt for a part of the franchise that isn't core but that they want to grow."

https://www.smh.com.au/business/companies/tesla-has-a-problem-and-it-s-not-the-model-3-20180407-p4z8a1.html



It will be interesting to see how Musky's dusky dream goes in winter when the solar panels not charging the Tesla are covered with snow!!!!

Is Musky a snake oil salesman feeding on the gullibility of pseudo Greeny types (like those here) who STILL believe in the Greenies' Global Warming HOAX ? Sooner or later, he will come unstuck.

If huge VW decides to enter the all electric market and sell to China Musky will only have a small market of delusional Globally Warmed geeky types who want to muck around with an iPhone on wheels rather than simply get somewhere.

If Musky cannot ever get his production line working and/or there are some more fiery crashes killing people with burning batteries his future looks very bleak unless he is bought out.

The other black cloud on the horizon is of course the hydrogen cars and trucks which are getting closer all the time and will render the pain in the neck inconvenient all electric heaps obsolete overnite just like 200 years ago as they will be a direct replacement for the petrol/diesel cars and trucks with no extremely annoying excessive charging times.


https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fd/Quentin_Willson_refuelling_the_Hyundai_ix35_Fuel_cell_car_with_HFuel_at_Nottingham_University.jpg

Despite the Greeny types futile protestations the hydrogen revolution is happening even while we sleep as the UK police turn to the convenience of hydrogen the fuel of the future.

Who wants to wait half an hour just to refuel his car while the hydrogen cars are in and out in about 10 minutes just like the petrol and diesel cars?

And the hydrogen cars are not producing heaps of coal pollution as they load up the power network like the electric heaps do.

And hydrogen cars don't mind the cold which kills the all electric heaps.




Met Police turns to hydrogen for squad cars
posted by Su-San Sit 27 March 2018

https://s31.postimg.cc/kvbqcgzjf/Toyota-_Mirai-_MET-1160x430.jpg

The Metropolitan Police is switching to hydrogen power for some of its squad cars as part of efforts to cut emissions.

The Department for Transport (DfT) said it would invested £8.8m in a government-industry project to boost the use of hydrogen-powered vehicles in the UK. The Met is aiming to have 550 zero or ultra-low emission vehicles in its fleet by 2020.

The DfT said the funds would used to buy almost 200 new hydrogen-powered cars for use by the Met, green taxi company Green Tomato Cars and car hire firm EuropCar.

The cash will also be used to construct four new hydrogen refilling stations in Southwark, Isleworth, Birmingham and Derby, and to upgrade five existing stations across the UK.

The project, which is run by a consortium managed by Element Energy and supported by ITM power, Shell, Toyota, Honda and Hyundai, aims to advance the use of hydrogen powered vehicles and infrastructure in the UK.

The DfT said companies and stakeholders involved in the project had pledged to match the government’s funds with £13.1m of investment.

Roads minister Jesse Norman said it was “essential” for the government to work with the auto industry towards decarbonising British roads to meet climate targets.

“The innovative new technologies involved present great opportunities for our increasingly low carbon economy,” he said.

“Hydrogen has huge potential, especially for those making longer journeys and clocking up high mileage – that is what makes this project truly exciting. Not only is it demonstrating the technology in action but it is also developing the refuelling infrastructure needed for the future.”

Earlier this month the Met procured 11 Toyota Mirai hydrogen fuel cell cars, which retail for around £66,000.

Neil Jerome, Met Police Commander, said: “The Met is committed, alongside the mayor, to making the service as environmentally friendly as possible and a big part of that work is ensuring our fleet is green.

“Since late 2015, we have been actively looking at ways to hybridise and electrify our fleet, as well as exploring other new technologies, such as hydrogen.”

Hydrogen cars emit only water vapour and have been picked as a potential clean transport solution thanks to their ability to refuel in minutes and travel long distances on a single tank. However, the cars are still relatively expensive.

Refuelling infrastructure is also just emerging, with only 10 public refuelling stations operating across the country.

The DoT said over the next few years the companies involved in the project would “work to improve access to hydrogen refuelling stations up and down the country” and “increase the number of hydrogen cars on our roads from this summer”.

https://www.cips.org/supply-management/news/2018/march/uk-to-spend-88m-to-switch-police-and-taxis-to-zero-emissions/

The little all electric heaps are OK while their numbers are kept small but if they reach plague proportions they overload the power system sending clouds of coal pollution into the smog laden air.




Electric vs Hydrogen – The battle to fuel the future of cars. In the future there can only be one and the brightest minds are debating over electric vs hydrogen.
by Mellisa Castillo April 6, 2016

https://kt-media-knowtechie.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/Screen-Shot-2016-04-06-at-10.52.46-AM.jpg

In the future there can only be one and the brightest minds are debating over electric vs hydrogen.

The best and the sharpest of the minds in automobile industry have been debating over, what sort of fuel, cars would use in not so distant future? Over the time two worthy contenders have been selected for the battle to fuel the future of cars.

The contender number one is the electric car, and contender number two is the hydrogen car.

Before we get down to the semantics, let’s talk about each of these cars, and how they function.

Electric car: The electric cars get power from the rechargeable batteries, which then power the motor.

Hydrogen car: In case of the hydrogen cars, hydrogen and oxygen are sent to the FC stack. A chemical reaction produces electricity and water. Electricity is sent to the motor.

The reason why these cars are considered to be future of cars, is because of zero emission, the pollution caused by car emissions, has become a problem lately, and necessary steps need to be taken to curb this problem.

Our infographic focuses on the factors that would make them the future of cars.

To see the very good comparison of the old electric and new hydrogen cars see here


https://knowtechie.com/electric-vs-hydrogen-battle-fuel-future-cars-infographic/

The Achilles Heels of the all electric heaps which will make them obsolete again just like 200 hundred years ago.

Those ridiculous back doors on the Tesla must be tops when it is raining or when you are parked and just imagine getting an upper cut when they open biff whack ouch!!!!


https://s31.postimg.cc/v9ck5lhob/Capture3.png

Yeh but where do you get a free hydrogen fill-up from socko :D LOL

And most people are a sleep whilst they charge up their EV's and most only need a top-up anyway so those arguments are moot as usual. What about a hydrogen powered mobile phone for instant charges :D LOL You have no argument as usual socko.

http://www.ozpolitic.com/album/forum-attachments/TeslaAtChadtsone_-_Copy__2_.jpg

The technically bereft impractical LostSnail digs up his old picture which says absolutely nothing.

DonDeeHippy wrote on May 12^th, 2018 at 4:42pm:

lee wrote on May 12th, 2018 at 4:32pm: DonDeeHippy wrote on May 12th, 2018 at 3:55pm: Hehe u put out any petrol fires with water lately ? With the correct retardants - yes. Added to the hose as the water exits the tanker. I'm a Volunteer Fire Fighter with Road Crash Rescue tasks. DonDeeHippy wrote on May 12th, 2018 at 3:55pm: Has demand for Tesla products slowed down lately ? ohh that's right they still have 450,000 pre orders with a $1000 deposit each for just one of their products. Has production slowed ohh wait yearly production of 2000 to 100,000  in 5 years, this year looks to be about 200,000 They r now the biggest sellers of EV's in the world, but r going broke....... If you keep selling cars below the cost of manufacture and reliant on "green energy" subsidies; that's the way they are heading. Eventually they must generate a profit before they go broke. Breaking even isn't an option; and they are not there yet. Very true if they keep selling cars below the cost of Manufacture they will go broke. They sell cars with one of the highest profit margins of any car manufacturer though, about same as Porsche. I guess setting up 3 Factories , one of then the biggist factory in the world, must cost money. who would think hey Lee  ;) ;) ;) I think u keep forgetting the 450,000 pre orders for just one product, they would be mad not to spend every cent for more expanding, ohh and production looks to double this year over last. if they made no profit and didn't expand id be very worried. ;) ;) I think its very refreshing to see a company that isn't looking at the short term for a change and kicking arse.

and company that isnt looking at the short-term wont be there in the long term

and those 450,000 pre-orders are now - a year later - still 450,000. At some stage, they might need to convince other buyers to purchase.

juliar wrote on May 14^th, 2018 at 2:05pm:

LostSnail has become hysterical pumping out mindless dribble like it was going out of style. What a waste of space.

I hate agreeing with you... but on toenail, you are not wrong.

lee wrote on May 15^th, 2018 at 1:18pm:

Sir lastnail wrote on May 15th, 2018 at 12:41pm: The US currency did when it was backed by the gold standard now it's no more worth than confetti ! Nope. Gold has no intrinsic value. It only has value others put on it. That makes it extrinsic.

is that actually a word??? I get the point (and you are right) but ive never heard that word used before.

lee wrote on May 15^th, 2018 at 8:22pm:

DonDeeHippy wrote on May 15th, 2018 at 7:38pm: He was going 100 kmh into a parked vehical at some lights , what has this have to do with Tesla ? Perhaps, just perhaps they should tell people that the cars cannot be put into "driverless" mode. So it isn't actually "autopilot"? That has been a sales pitch.

I think the biggest problem and a huge danger is even calling it 'autopilot'. Would not most people assume (wrongly) that like a plane autopilot it would drive you safe and true without any intervention?  The systems biggest problem is its ridiculous name. Call it DriverAssist and the exact same tech would have a tenth of the accidents.

DonDeeHippy wrote on May 16^th, 2018 at 12:33pm:

lee wrote on May 16th, 2018 at 11:54am: DonDeeHippy wrote on May 16th, 2018 at 4:47am: Is Tesla safest car? Palo Alto, CA — Independent testing by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) has awarded the Tesla Model S a 5-star safety rating, not just overall, but in every subcategory without exception. Approximately one percent of all cars tested by the federal government achieve 5 stars across the board. So what you are saying is that Tesla has an equivalent safety rating as the rest of the 1%. I am not sure how you translate that to "the safest". DonDeeHippy wrote on May 16th, 2018 at 4:47am: Tesla's crash rate was reduced by 40% after introduction of Autopilot based on data reviewed by NHTSA https://electrek.co/2017/01/19/tesla-crash-rate-autopilot-nhtsa/ If that is the case it was 40% worse before Autopilot was installed. ;) DonDeeHippy wrote on May 16th, 2018 at 4:47am: In the US, there is one automotive fatality every 86 million miles across all vehicles from all manufacturers. For Tesla, there is one fatality, including known pedestrian fatalities, every 320 million miles in vehicles equipped with Autopilot hardware. Do you think that might have something to do with the lower numbers of Tesla's on the road? As a percentage against all other vehicles? DonDeeHippy wrote on May 16th, 2018 at 4:47am: If you are driving a Tesla equipped with Autopilot hardware, you are 3.7 times less likely to be involved in a fatal accident. https://electrek.co/2018/03/30/tesla-autopilot-fatal-crash-data/ Again. Numbers of Tesla's against all other vehicles. DonDeeHippy wrote on May 16th, 2018 at 4:47am: Ohh I keep forgetting you don't actually look at what u post or really pay attention. The woman on the phone according to what u have posted was the latest accident Wink the only thing  obvious is that she was on her phone and crashed into a stopped vehicle. Every time there is a accident the media go crazy u think Tesla owners don't read the news about the short comings of its auto pilot ??? So when u have cruise control on , can u look at your phone ? Yeah. That's why in places like Australia it is illegal to look at your phone, answer it, text with it. And don't be daft. You keep making schist up and taking things out of context. That says more about you than me. ;) DonDeeHippy wrote on May 16th, 2018 at 4:47am: Maybe its the phones fault, not enough warnings that u cant drive and look at your phone at the same time... Oh dear. trying to raise strawman arguments and you are just no well equipped enough to do it. DonDeeHippy wrote on May 16th, 2018 at 4:47am: Using a phone while driving in Aus is illegal isn't it, because you cant pay attention , you could crash into a parked fire truck for instance...... Exactly as I noted above. The fact is Tesla advertises it as "Autopilot". Maybe they should change it to something that reflects reality. Cruise control perhaps? ;) ohh Lee if only u would read..... 87 million miles for 1 death 320 million miles 1 death for Tesla's, doesn't matter how many cars r on the road, its the distance travelled. What am I taking out of Context ? The woman was doing 100kms and crashed into a stopped truck at some lights while on her phone. Speed notification would of been off, who knows what else was off. Again wait a few weeks and Tesla will release EXACTLY what happened like they have every other time. Ok so u don't like the Name well Tweet Elon he might listen to u........ ;) ;)

the assumptions in that statistic are numerous. Firstly, there is the sample size which is miniscule.. Secondly, safety and age of vehicle is directly related and ALL Teslas are reasonably new while the age of the rest of the cars will be considerably older. The truly poor drivers are also often the financially poorer as well and Tesla owners are universally well-off.  Also, the raft of safety features on a tesla is similar to the safety features on other expensive, luxury high priced vehicles, but we are comparing them to cheaper cars with far less inbuilt safety.

The comparison is essentially invalid and I suspect that if we compared like for like we would find Teslas are no worse or any better than any other COMPARABLE car.

too easy

DonDeeHippy wrote on May 16^th, 2018 at 4:14pm:

lee wrote on May 16th, 2018 at 1:25pm: Sir lastnail wrote on May 16th, 2018 at 1:19pm: Yes after waiting for the summer season for it to defrost So the Tesla wasn't up to the task? Oh dear. ;) https://cleantechnica.com/2018/03/26/norways-ev-association-conducts-biggest-winter-electric-car-test-ever/ The good news from this test is that drivers who live in cold climates have no reason to fear owning an electric car. In terms of which is best, this old expression is still true; ” You pays your money and your takes your choice.” Happy motoring! Norway has the biggest uptake of EV's in the world (about50%) and they all seam to cope during winter. I wonder if it gets cold there. ;) ;)

so it is 50% now, is it? The last time this transparent lie was brought out it was round 27%. It is of course absolute nonsense and the real figure is under 2%.

Think about it... there is basically only one EV around and do you think half of Norway drives Teslas?

too easy

lee wrote on May 17^th, 2018 at 12:30pm:

DonDeeHippy wrote on May 17th, 2018 at 11:13am: Cant help stupidity until vehicles are completely autonomous Or if they get there. "Autopilot" has a specific meaning. Trying to change the meaning of the word just doesn't cut it. "An autopilot is a system used to control the trajectory of an aircraft without constant 'hands-on' control by a human operator being required. Autopilots do not replace human operators, but instead they assist them in controlling the aircraft. This allows them to focus on broader aspects of operations such as monitoring the trajectory, weather and systems" Source wiki But Tesla are saying you can't be "hands-off" on their version.

wrong. 'autopilot' on an aircraft in its most basic form maintains an aircrafts altitude, speed and direction with NO PILOT INPUT ie hands-off. More advanced systems will do landing glidepaths  and a lot of other features all without a pilots input.

the term autopilot in a car is contributory negligence as it is nothing like what autopilot actually is.

longweekend58 wrote on May 18^th, 2018 at 5:19pm:

DonDeeHippy wrote on May 16th, 2018 at 4:14pm: lee wrote on May 16th, 2018 at 1:25pm: Sir lastnail wrote on May 16th, 2018 at 1:19pm: Yes after waiting for the summer season for it to defrost So the Tesla wasn't up to the task? Oh dear. ;) https://cleantechnica.com/2018/03/26/norways-ev-association-conducts-biggest-winter-electric-car-test-ever/ The good news from this test is that drivers who live in cold climates have no reason to fear owning an electric car. In terms of which is best, this old expression is still true; ” You pays your money and your takes your choice.” Happy motoring! Norway has the biggest uptake of EV's in the world (about50%) and they all seam to cope during winter. I wonder if it gets cold there. ;) ;) so it is 50% now, is it? The last time this transparent lie was brought out it was round 27%. It is of course absolute nonsense and the real figure is under 2%. Think about it... there is basically only one EV around and do you think half of Norway drives Teslas? too easy

I didn't say worldwide I said Norway.... :D :D ;) ;) ;)
As we anticipated with Tesla breaking its monthly delivery record in Norway halfway through December, the new electric vehicles contributed to electric car market share reaching a new 52 percent record in the country last month.
https://electrek.co/2018/01/03/electric-car-market-share-norway-tesla-record-deliveries/
At least read what I said and if u remember the 27 wasn't a percentage but 1 in 27 people that bought a ev, and that number I got from a Statistic u posted and Lee picked up on and got fixed  ;) ;)
Its ok ill just always check anything u write from now on as its probably not right  ;)

DonDeeHippy wrote on May 19^th, 2018 at 8:38am:

longweekend58 wrote on May 18th, 2018 at 5:19pm: DonDeeHippy wrote on May 16th, 2018 at 4:14pm: lee wrote on May 16th, 2018 at 1:25pm: Sir lastnail wrote on May 16th, 2018 at 1:19pm: Yes after waiting for the summer season for it to defrost So the Tesla wasn't up to the task? Oh dear. ;) https://cleantechnica.com/2018/03/26/norways-ev-association-conducts-biggest-winter-electric-car-test-ever/ The good news from this test is that drivers who live in cold climates have no reason to fear owning an electric car. In terms of which is best, this old expression is still true; ” You pays your money and your takes your choice.” Happy motoring! Norway has the biggest uptake of EV's in the world (about50%) and they all seam to cope during winter. I wonder if it gets cold there. ;) ;) so it is 50% now, is it? The last time this transparent lie was brought out it was round 27%. It is of course absolute nonsense and the real figure is under 2%. Think about it... there is basically only one EV around and do you think half of Norway drives Teslas? too easy I didn't say worldwide I said Norway.... :D :D ;) ;) ;) As we anticipated with Tesla breaking its monthly delivery record in Norway halfway through December, the new electric vehicles contributed to electric car market share reaching a new 52 percent record in the country last month. https://electrek.co/2018/01/03/electric-car-market-share-norway-tesla-record-deliveries/ At least read what I said and if u remember the 27 wasn't a percentage but 1 in 27 people that bought a ev, and that number I got from a Statistic u posted and Lee picked up on and got fixed  ;) ;) Its ok ill just always check anything u write from now on as its probably not right  ;)

and like just about every green-inspired article, the headline says it all - except it lies. 52% isnt the market share of EVs at all. it is the share of HYBRIDS - a completely different animal altogether.

Also worth noting that Norway taxes the crap out of petrol cars so their purchases are penalty-driven rather than by choice.

actual EVs still sell rather small quantities.

"138 829 electric passenger cars at the beginning of 2018"

2017 - "Private cars      2 719 395"

https://www.ssb.no/en/bilreg

About 5% by registrations.

lee wrote on May 19^th, 2018 at 3:11pm:

"138 829 electric passenger cars at the beginning of 2018" 2017 - "Private cars      2 719 395" https://www.ssb.no/en/bilreg About 5% by registrations.

I presume that is 5% for actual EVs, not hybrids.

I think hybrids are great and now all they have to is make hybrids that dont look like that dog-ugly prius and not as expensive as the Panamera.

longweekend58 wrote on May 19^th, 2018 at 4:23pm:

lee wrote on May 19th, 2018 at 3:11pm: "138 829 electric passenger cars at the beginning of 2018" 2017 - "Private cars      2 719 395" https://www.ssb.no/en/bilreg About 5% by registrations. I presume that is 5% for actual EVs, not hybrids. I think hybrids are great and now all they have to is make hybrids that dont look like that dog-ugly prius and not as expensive as the Panamera.

they include plug in Hybrids , which r just basically electric cars with a petrol Generator on them for doing long ranges.  ;) ;)
Yes 50% of new sales will still take along time to get rid of existing registered cars.
In aus its 19million cars and last year sold 1.2 million .

DonDeeHippy wrote on May 19^th, 2018 at 6:06pm:

longweekend58 wrote on May 19th, 2018 at 4:23pm: lee wrote on May 19th, 2018 at 3:11pm: "138 829 electric passenger cars at the beginning of 2018" 2017 - "Private cars      2 719 395" https://www.ssb.no/en/bilreg About 5% by registrations. I presume that is 5% for actual EVs, not hybrids. I think hybrids are great and now all they have to is make hybrids that dont look like that dog-ugly prius and not as expensive as the Panamera. they include plug in Hybrids , which r just basically electric cars with a petrol Generator on them for doing long ranges.  ;) ;) Yes 50% of new sales will still take along time to get rid of existing registered cars. In aus its 19million cars and last year sold 1.2 million .

you REALLY dont know what hybrids are, do you?  Of course not!  it doesnt fit your zealot thinking.

Hybrids are PETROL cars with electric assistance in performance and/or economy. Without the petrol motor they are limited to 30miles perhaps.

Hybrids are great but they are NOT electric vehicles which is why they massively outsell EVs. Now with most manufacturers saying they will all be offering a wide range of hybrids, the EV will have even less reason to be bought.

longweekend58 wrote on May 19^th, 2018 at 10:46pm:

DonDeeHippy wrote on May 19th, 2018 at 6:06pm: longweekend58 wrote on May 19th, 2018 at 4:23pm: lee wrote on May 19th, 2018 at 3:11pm: "138 829 electric passenger cars at the beginning of 2018" 2017 - "Private cars      2 719 395" https://www.ssb.no/en/bilreg About 5% by registrations. I presume that is 5% for actual EVs, not hybrids. I think hybrids are great and now all they have to is make hybrids that dont look like that dog-ugly prius and not as expensive as the Panamera. they include plug in Hybrids , which r just basically electric cars with a petrol Generator on them for doing long ranges.  ;) ;) Yes 50% of new sales will still take along time to get rid of existing registered cars. In aus its 19million cars and last year sold 1.2 million . you REALLY dont know what hybrids are, do you?  Of course not!  it doesnt fit your zealot thinking. Hybrids are PETROL cars with electric assistance in performance and/or economy. Without the petrol motor they are limited to 30miles perhaps. Hybrids are great but they are NOT electric vehicles which is why they massively outsell EVs. Now with most manufacturers saying they will all be offering a wide range of hybrids, the EV will have even less reason to be bought.

the only Toyota hybrid that is counted in these numbers is the prius prime because its a plug in... yes range is only about 30km full electric, but as I said its a EV with a petrol generator...... ;) ;) ;) I think the chevy bolt is the best range of 80km's and since most ppl do about 40kms a day its all they need for daily travel........
So as I said only Plug in Hybrids are counted in these numbers. Zealot or not.

DonDeeHippy wrote on May 20^th, 2018 at 8:39am:

longweekend58 wrote on May 19th, 2018 at 10:46pm: DonDeeHippy wrote on May 19th, 2018 at 6:06pm: longweekend58 wrote on May 19th, 2018 at 4:23pm: lee wrote on May 19th, 2018 at 3:11pm: "138 829 electric passenger cars at the beginning of 2018" 2017 - "Private cars      2 719 395" https://www.ssb.no/en/bilreg About 5% by registrations. I presume that is 5% for actual EVs, not hybrids. I think hybrids are great and now all they have to is make hybrids that dont look like that dog-ugly prius and not as expensive as the Panamera. they include plug in Hybrids , which r just basically electric cars with a petrol Generator on them for doing long ranges.  ;) ;) Yes 50% of new sales will still take along time to get rid of existing registered cars. In aus its 19million cars and last year sold 1.2 million . you REALLY dont know what hybrids are, do you?  Of course not!  it doesnt fit your zealot thinking. Hybrids are PETROL cars with electric assistance in performance and/or economy. Without the petrol motor they are limited to 30miles perhaps. Hybrids are great but they are NOT electric vehicles which is why they massively outsell EVs. Now with most manufacturers saying they will all be offering a wide range of hybrids, the EV will have even less reason to be bought. the only Toyota hybrid that is counted in these numbers is the prius prime because its a plug in... yes range is only about 30km full electric, but as I said its a EV with a petrol generator...... ;) ;) ;) I think the chevy bolt is the best range of 80km's and since most ppl do about 40kms a day its all they need for daily travel........ So as I said only Plug in Hybrids are counted in these numbers. Zealot or not.

you STILL dont seem to know what a hybrid is. It is NOT an EV with a petrol generator. The petrol engine drives the wheels and so does the electric motors. Thats a very big difference.

longweekend58 wrote on May 20^th, 2018 at 1:08pm:

DonDeeHippy wrote on May 20th, 2018 at 8:39am: longweekend58 wrote on May 19th, 2018 at 10:46pm: DonDeeHippy wrote on May 19th, 2018 at 6:06pm: longweekend58 wrote on May 19th, 2018 at 4:23pm: lee wrote on May 19th, 2018 at 3:11pm: "138 829 electric passenger cars at the beginning of 2018" 2017 - "Private cars      2 719 395" https://www.ssb.no/en/bilreg About 5% by registrations. I presume that is 5% for actual EVs, not hybrids. I think hybrids are great and now all they have to is make hybrids that dont look like that dog-ugly prius and not as expensive as the Panamera. they include plug in Hybrids , which r just basically electric cars with a petrol Generator on them for doing long ranges.  ;) ;) Yes 50% of new sales will still take along time to get rid of existing registered cars. In aus its 19million cars and last year sold 1.2 million . you REALLY dont know what hybrids are, do you?  Of course not!  it doesnt fit your zealot thinking. Hybrids are PETROL cars with electric assistance in performance and/or economy. Without the petrol motor they are limited to 30miles perhaps. Hybrids are great but they are NOT electric vehicles which is why they massively outsell EVs. Now with most manufacturers saying they will all be offering a wide range of hybrids, the EV will have even less reason to be bought. the only Toyota hybrid that is counted in these numbers is the prius prime because its a plug in... yes range is only about 30km full electric, but as I said its a EV with a petrol generator...... ;) ;) ;) I think the chevy bolt is the best range of 80km's and since most ppl do about 40kms a day its all they need for daily travel........ So as I said only Plug in Hybrids are counted in these numbers. Zealot or not. you STILL dont seem to know what a hybrid is. It is NOT an EV with a petrol generator. The petrol engine drives the wheels and so does the electric motors. Thats a very big difference.

Except Volt and bmw i3  ;) ;) ;)

DonDeeHippy wrote on May 20^th, 2018 at 4:31pm:

longweekend58 wrote on May 20th, 2018 at 1:08pm: DonDeeHippy wrote on May 20th, 2018 at 8:39am: longweekend58 wrote on May 19th, 2018 at 10:46pm: DonDeeHippy wrote on May 19th, 2018 at 6:06pm: longweekend58 wrote on May 19th, 2018 at 4:23pm: lee wrote on May 19th, 2018 at 3:11pm: "138 829 electric passenger cars at the beginning of 2018" 2017 - "Private cars      2 719 395" https://www.ssb.no/en/bilreg About 5% by registrations. I presume that is 5% for actual EVs, not hybrids. I think hybrids are great and now all they have to is make hybrids that dont look like that dog-ugly prius and not as expensive as the Panamera. they include plug in Hybrids , which r just basically electric cars with a petrol Generator on them for doing long ranges.  ;) ;) Yes 50% of new sales will still take along time to get rid of existing registered cars. In aus its 19million cars and last year sold 1.2 million . you REALLY dont know what hybrids are, do you?  Of course not!  it doesnt fit your zealot thinking. Hybrids are PETROL cars with electric assistance in performance and/or economy. Without the petrol motor they are limited to 30miles perhaps. Hybrids are great but they are NOT electric vehicles which is why they massively outsell EVs. Now with most manufacturers saying they will all be offering a wide range of hybrids, the EV will have even less reason to be bought. the only Toyota hybrid that is counted in these numbers is the prius prime because its a plug in... yes range is only about 30km full electric, but as I said its a EV with a petrol generator...... ;) ;) ;) I think the chevy bolt is the best range of 80km's and since most ppl do about 40kms a day its all they need for daily travel........ So as I said only Plug in Hybrids are counted in these numbers. Zealot or not. you STILL dont seem to know what a hybrid is. It is NOT an EV with a petrol generator. The petrol engine drives the wheels and so does the electric motors. Thats a very big difference. Except Volt and bmw i3  ;) ;) ;)

and not the prius nor any of the hybrids planned by major car companies. And how pointless would be an on-board generator anyhow? Also, the Volt is a market failure and the i3 is hardly a common car anywhere. and in both cases, the generator is not enough to sustain driving. it is a recharger only. it 'extends' range. it does not fix the problem of recharging.

longweekend58 wrote on May 20^th, 2018 at 5:56pm:

DonDeeHippy wrote on May 20th, 2018 at 4:31pm: longweekend58 wrote on May 20th, 2018 at 1:08pm: DonDeeHippy wrote on May 20th, 2018 at 8:39am: longweekend58 wrote on May 19th, 2018 at 10:46pm: DonDeeHippy wrote on May 19th, 2018 at 6:06pm: longweekend58 wrote on May 19th, 2018 at 4:23pm: lee wrote on May 19th, 2018 at 3:11pm: "138 829 electric passenger cars at the beginning of 2018" 2017 - "Private cars      2 719 395" https://www.ssb.no/en/bilreg About 5% by registrations. I presume that is 5% for actual EVs, not hybrids. I think hybrids are great and now all they have to is make hybrids that dont look like that dog-ugly prius and not as expensive as the Panamera. they include plug in Hybrids , which r just basically electric cars with a petrol Generator on them for doing long ranges.  ;) ;) Yes 50% of new sales will still take along time to get rid of existing registered cars. In aus its 19million cars and last year sold 1.2 million . you REALLY dont know what hybrids are, do you?  Of course not!  it doesnt fit your zealot thinking. Hybrids are PETROL cars with electric assistance in performance and/or economy. Without the petrol motor they are limited to 30miles perhaps. Hybrids are great but they are NOT electric vehicles which is why they massively outsell EVs. Now with most manufacturers saying they will all be offering a wide range of hybrids, the EV will have even less reason to be bought. the only Toyota hybrid that is counted in these numbers is the prius prime because its a plug in... yes range is only about 30km full electric, but as I said its a EV with a petrol generator...... ;) ;) ;) I think the chevy bolt is the best range of 80km's and since most ppl do about 40kms a day its all they need for daily travel........ So as I said only Plug in Hybrids are counted in these numbers. Zealot or not. you STILL dont seem to know what a hybrid is. It is NOT an EV with a petrol generator. The petrol engine drives the wheels and so does the electric motors. Thats a very big difference. Except Volt and bmw i3  ;) ;) ;) and not the prius nor any of the hybrids planned by major car companies. And how pointless would be an on-board generator anyhow? Also, the Volt is a market failure and the i3 is hardly a common car anywhere. and in both cases, the generator is not enough to sustain driving. it is a recharger only. it 'extends' range. it does not fix the problem of recharging.

The Volt was a market failure because GMC purposely priced it out of the market for no reason at all when it should have been sold at the same price as the Holden Cruze and not more than a Prius !!

You can always rely on GMC to sabotage their own EV products. They seem to be quite good at it now :D LOL

longweekend58 wrote on May 20^th, 2018 at 5:56pm:

DonDeeHippy wrote on May 20th, 2018 at 4:31pm: longweekend58 wrote on May 20th, 2018 at 1:08pm: DonDeeHippy wrote on May 20th, 2018 at 8:39am: longweekend58 wrote on May 19th, 2018 at 10:46pm: DonDeeHippy wrote on May 19th, 2018 at 6:06pm: longweekend58 wrote on May 19th, 2018 at 4:23pm: lee wrote on May 19th, 2018 at 3:11pm: "138 829 electric passenger cars at the beginning of 2018" 2017 - "Private cars      2 719 395" https://www.ssb.no/en/bilreg About 5% by registrations. I presume that is 5% for actual EVs, not hybrids. I think hybrids are great and now all they have to is make hybrids that dont look like that dog-ugly prius and not as expensive as the Panamera. they include plug in Hybrids , which r just basically electric cars with a petrol Generator on them for doing long ranges.  ;) ;) Yes 50% of new sales will still take along time to get rid of existing registered cars. In aus its 19million cars and last year sold 1.2 million . you REALLY dont know what hybrids are, do you?  Of course not!  it doesnt fit your zealot thinking. Hybrids are PETROL cars with electric assistance in performance and/or economy. Without the petrol motor they are limited to 30miles perhaps. Hybrids are great but they are NOT electric vehicles which is why they massively outsell EVs. Now with most manufacturers saying they will all be offering a wide range of hybrids, the EV will have even less reason to be bought. the only Toyota hybrid that is counted in these numbers is the prius prime because its a plug in... yes range is only about 30km full electric, but as I said its a EV with a petrol generator...... ;) ;) ;) I think the chevy bolt is the best range of 80km's and since most ppl do about 40kms a day its all they need for daily travel........ So as I said only Plug in Hybrids are counted in these numbers. Zealot or not. you STILL dont seem to know what a hybrid is. It is NOT an EV with a petrol generator. The petrol engine drives the wheels and so does the electric motors. Thats a very big difference. Except Volt and bmw i3  ;) ;) ;) and not the prius nor any of the hybrids planned by major car companies. And how pointless would be an on-board generator anyhow? Also, the Volt is a market failure and the i3 is hardly a common car anywhere. and in both cases, the generator is not enough to sustain driving. it is a recharger only. it 'extends' range. it does not fix the problem of recharging.

And still when they look at ev numbers it’s only plug in vehicals either bev or PHEV so none of them solve your problem of charging  ;) ;) ;) except every house is a charger. ;)
I think your right hybrids will be the transition vehicals for years to come. :) ;)

DonDeeHippy wrote on May 20^th, 2018 at 8:34pm:

longweekend58 wrote on May 20th, 2018 at 5:56pm: DonDeeHippy wrote on May 20th, 2018 at 4:31pm: longweekend58 wrote on May 20th, 2018 at 1:08pm: DonDeeHippy wrote on May 20th, 2018 at 8:39am: longweekend58 wrote on May 19th, 2018 at 10:46pm: DonDeeHippy wrote on May 19th, 2018 at 6:06pm: longweekend58 wrote on May 19th, 2018 at 4:23pm: lee wrote on May 19th, 2018 at 3:11pm: "138 829 electric passenger cars at the beginning of 2018" 2017 - "Private cars      2 719 395" https://www.ssb.no/en/bilreg About 5% by registrations. I presume that is 5% for actual EVs, not hybrids. I think hybrids are great and now all they have to is make hybrids that dont look like that dog-ugly prius and not as expensive as the Panamera. they include plug in Hybrids , which r just basically electric cars with a petrol Generator on them for doing long ranges.  ;) ;) Yes 50% of new sales will still take along time to get rid of existing registered cars. In aus its 19million cars and last year sold 1.2 million . you REALLY dont know what hybrids are, do you?  Of course not!  it doesnt fit your zealot thinking. Hybrids are PETROL cars with electric assistance in performance and/or economy. Without the petrol motor they are limited to 30miles perhaps. Hybrids are great but they are NOT electric vehicles which is why they massively outsell EVs. Now with most manufacturers saying they will all be offering a wide range of hybrids, the EV will have even less reason to be bought. the only Toyota hybrid that is counted in these numbers is the prius prime because its a plug in... yes range is only about 30km full electric, but as I said its a EV with a petrol generator...... ;) ;) ;) I think the chevy bolt is the best range of 80km's and since most ppl do about 40kms a day its all they need for daily travel........ So as I said only Plug in Hybrids are counted in these numbers. Zealot or not. you STILL dont seem to know what a hybrid is. It is NOT an EV with a petrol generator. The petrol engine drives the wheels and so does the electric motors. Thats a very big difference. Except Volt and bmw i3  ;) ;) ;) and not the prius nor any of the hybrids planned by major car companies. And how pointless would be an on-board generator anyhow? Also, the Volt is a market failure and the i3 is hardly a common car anywhere. and in both cases, the generator is not enough to sustain driving. it is a recharger only. it 'extends' range. it does not fix the problem of recharging. And still when they look at ev numbers it’s only plug in vehicals either bev or PHEV so none of them solve your problem of charging  ;) ;) ;) except every house is a charger. ;) I think your right hybrids will be the transition vehicals for years to come. :) ;)

and finally you get it... Hybrids will be transition technology for many many years until technology and infrastructure permits a change. But drivers are NOT going to pay more money for a technology that is not as good as the current one. And they arent.