Judging by some of the comments on other threads there seems to be some differing opinions on exactly what atheism is.

So what is atheism to you?

The_Barnacle wrote on Mar 7^th, 2018 at 11:18am:

Judging by some of the comments on other threads there seems to be some differing opinions on exactly what atheism is. So what is atheism to you?

A belief that God does not exist.

A disbelief in one more god that monotheists.

Ask Gordy.

He knows who is and who isn't a Muslim, so he probably knows the answer to your question too.

No word from him yet on whether the Pope is Catholic, though.

A definitive answer is difficult, because its a term in the negative, and many of those who profess not to believe in (God?) are not particularly interested in creating a belief system around a simple rejection of what is often presented in a silly way. Often, such people have better things to do with their time than answering unanswerable questions like, "Okay smarty pants, where did the Universe come from then?"

non-belief in a god

Spot

I think there is more to it that. Atheist do not think that there is a Creator which intervenes in the universe.

Let's not confuse MYTHOLOGY with RELIGION
for starters.
Mythology is like a culture creating 'Gods' or 'Soapie Stars' (or Super Heroes as they do in the USA in their 'Cinema' temples) - both entertaining and as fictional characters (although based upon people of the past most likely), to help convey a 'moral' understanding or human learning. Mythology is all that Psychology had dreamed of.

Religion was first created by the Jews. They took the invention of Writing (by the Sumerians upon the Temple of Ur via the inspiration of Sin <aka Moon/Luna> and hence the word 'Sin-Ur' <sinner>) and used it to 'immortalise' their Family Tree - the Jews. By doing so, they became 'exiled' from the 'nature' of everything else as a Bloodline (started by two Jews: Adam & Eve), having sold their souls to 'Writing' and eventually - the Book.
Thus - their future was guaranteed and their past, immortalised ...like Gods.

Now I could go on and elaborate further, but for the quick response to the question.

Atheism came about as a Rebellion against all things 'Religious' (you know - the invention that helped discover the New Worlds, because Science couldn't get its crap together yet  ::)) and originally ATHIESM didn't really know what it was (which is why the question still remains "What is Atheism?"  :-? ...like a 'tradition') - but it knew that it was totally ANTI (against) RELIGIOUS.
These days now though - Atheism is finding itself very 'Pro' as in Pro-Science and basically it is finding its cultural friends with Science, Media and Café Latte Hipsters in black skivys. Celebrities are now the main 'personality' of an Atheist.

...so, for my last input.
Atheist: Someone who comes from the Region of Oceania (Science) and is Anti someone from the Middle-East (Religion).  ;)

Now remember: BOTH Creationism & Evolution are right.
Who said there has to be only 'one' right answer?  ;)

"Let's not confuse MYTHOLOGY with RELIGION"  ;D ;D ;D

That's a doozie!

issuevoter wrote on Mar 7^th, 2018 at 9:12pm:

"Let's not confuse MYTHOLOGY with RELIGION"  ;D ;D ;D That's a doozie!

Well the World's experts can tell the 'difference' - why can't you?
::)

it is the absence of theism, that is, of belief in god/s.

Nom de Plume wrote on Mar 7^th, 2018 at 7:11pm:

I think there is more to it that. Atheist do not think that there is a Creator which intervenes in the universe.

Untrue, I would class myself atheist. I cannot prove a god does not exist and I don't care to, I have better things to do with my life. I cannot prove a teapot does not orbit Alpha Centauri. I see no evidence of it. I just disbelieve in any god that man has come up with. I have disbelief in Faeries, Thor, Odin, Shiva, Ra, El, YWHY, Allah, etc, etc. Monotheists only differ from me in that they believe in one more god than I do.

Edit: Oh, one other way we differ, they would kill for their beliefs, I have no deity to tell me to believe killing others is a good thing.

Setanta wrote on Mar 7^th, 2018 at 11:21pm:

Nom de Plume wrote on Mar 7th, 2018 at 7:11pm: I think there is more to it that. Atheist do not think that there is a Creator which intervenes in the universe. Untrue, I would class myself atheist. I cannot prove a god does not exist and I don't care to, I have better things to do with my life. I cannot prove a teapot does not orbit Alpha Centauri. I see no evidence of it. I just disbelieve in any god that man has come up with. I have disbelief in Faeries, Thor, Odin, Shiva, Ra, El, YWHY, Allah, etc, etc. Monotheists only differ from me in that they believe in one more god than I do. Edit: Oh, one other way we differ, they would kill for their beliefs, I have no deity to tell me to believe killing others is a good thing.

Hark! We have a linguistic alchemist in our midst, capable of turning a simple statement about what atheist do not think, into a matter of proofs, lacking evidence.

Nom de Plume wrote on Mar 8^th, 2018 at 12:11am:

Setanta wrote on Mar 7th, 2018 at 11:21pm: Nom de Plume wrote on Mar 7th, 2018 at 7:11pm: I think there is more to it that. Atheist do not think that there is a Creator which intervenes in the universe. Untrue, I would class myself atheist. I cannot prove a god does not exist and I don't care to, I have better things to do with my life. I cannot prove a teapot does not orbit Alpha Centauri. I see no evidence of it. I just disbelieve in any god that man has come up with. I have disbelief in Faeries, Thor, Odin, Shiva, Ra, El, YWHY, Allah, etc, etc. Monotheists only differ from me in that they believe in one more god than I do. Edit: Oh, one other way we differ, they would kill for their beliefs, I have no deity to tell me to believe killing others is a good thing. Hark! We have a linguistic alchemist in our midst, capable of turning a simple statement about what atheist do not think, into a matter of proofs, lacking evidence.

I can even say, huh?!

Would you like to be more intimately critical of what I said? I would thing god believing had lacking evidence was.. Oh never mind.
.

Jasin wrote on Mar 7^th, 2018 at 9:57pm:

issuevoter wrote on Mar 7th, 2018 at 9:12pm: "Let's not confuse MYTHOLOGY with RELIGION"  ;D ;D ;D That's a doozie! Well the World's experts can tell the 'difference' - why can't you? ::)

Experts on what?

issuevoter wrote on Mar 8^th, 2018 at 7:06am:

Jasin wrote on Mar 7th, 2018 at 9:57pm: issuevoter wrote on Mar 7th, 2018 at 9:12pm: "Let's not confuse MYTHOLOGY with RELIGION"  ;D ;D ;D That's a doozie! Well the World's experts can tell the 'difference' - why can't you? ::) Experts on what?

Go read some Joseph Campbell for starters. He has some really 'thick' books for you to catch up on.
Then come back telling me you can't tell the difference.

What is Atheism?

Atheism is a 'Church'.       ;)            ;D




A creator God doesn't exist.

Just like your consciousness doesn't exist.

Thinking, that you really exist, is an error,      ....it is all a delusion, it is all a fantasy, it is all a 'misconception',      a myth.



Someone like Alexander the Great.

He changed human history.

He had a 'presence', once.

Not any more.

Q.
Where is the consciousness of Alexander the Great, today ?

Q.
Do you believe that we only 'exist', in what [the 'things'] we do [achieve] while we are alive ?

Q.
What are you doing [achieving] with your life ?



Yadda said....
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1518481938/17#17

Quote:

Amadd, Answer me this..... What is the essence of your consciousness ? Where do you believe, that your consciousness 'originated' from ? Human consciousness. Do you believe that evolution created self-awareness ? Are you going to tell me that you do not know ? Then i would opine, 'Exactly so'.

Alexander the Great ?

He was just a man, made of flesh and blood.

He is 'not'.


Matthew 16:24
Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
25  For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.
26  For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?


Deuteronomy 8:2
And thou shalt remember all the way which the LORD thy God led thee these forty years in the wilderness, to humble thee, and to prove thee, to know what was in thine heart, whether thou wouldest keep his commandments, or no.


Revelation 20:12
And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13  And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Where is Alexander the Great ?


Ecclesiastes 12:6
Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern.
7  Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.


I believe it,       but i can't prove it.

Setanta wrote on Mar 8^th, 2018 at 12:36am:

Nom de Plume wrote on Mar 8th, 2018 at 12:11am: Setanta wrote on Mar 7th, 2018 at 11:21pm: Nom de Plume wrote on Mar 7th, 2018 at 7:11pm: I think there is more to it that. Atheist do not think that there is a Creator which intervenes in the universe. Untrue, I would class myself atheist. I cannot prove a god does not exist and I don't care to, I have better things to do with my life. I cannot prove a teapot does not orbit Alpha Centauri. I see no evidence of it. I just disbelieve in any god that man has come up with. I have disbelief in Faeries, Thor, Odin, Shiva, Ra, El, YWHY, Allah, etc, etc. Monotheists only differ from me in that they believe in one more god than I do. Edit: Oh, one other way we differ, they would kill for their beliefs, I have no deity to tell me to believe killing others is a good thing. Hark! We have a linguistic alchemist in our midst, capable of turning a simple statement about what atheist do not think, into a matter of proofs, lacking evidence. I can even say, huh?! Indubitably My Lord. However, pardon my boldness, what would be the the point? Would you like to be more intimately critical of what I said? I would thing god believing had lacking evidence was.. Oh never mind. As you wish My Lord.

Antitheism is concerned with matters of proof, and I am not an Antitheist.

Gotta admit though.
The 'core' element of Atheist existence was a bunch of celebrities/musicians who declared themselves

ANTI
...religious.

Nothing more.

Setanta wrote on Mar 7^th, 2018 at 11:21pm:

Nom de Plume wrote on Mar 7th, 2018 at 7:11pm: I think there is more to it that. Atheist do not think that there is a Creator which intervenes in the universe. Edit: Oh, one other way we differ, they would kill for their beliefs, I have no deity to tell me to believe killing others is a good thing.

They use their faith to justify mass killing as, just as The West uses Democracy to justify their mass killing.

Nom de Plume wrote on Mar 8^th, 2018 at 12:10pm:

Setanta wrote on Mar 7th, 2018 at 11:21pm: Nom de Plume wrote on Mar 7th, 2018 at 7:11pm: I think there is more to it that. Atheist do not think that there is a Creator which intervenes in the universe. Edit: Oh, one other way we differ, they would kill for their beliefs, I have no deity to tell me to believe killing others is a good thing. They use their faith to justify mass killing as, just as The West uses Democracy to justify their mass killing.

...and the Music Industry uses mass suicide (self destruction) via drugs n' alcohol.

The dictionary definition of Atheism is


Quote:

disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods.

Whereas the dictionary definition of Agnosticism is


Quote:

is the view that the existence of God, of the divine or the supernatural is unknown or unknowable

I believe that there is a spectrum of belief between Atheism  and Agnosticism

My own belief is that whilst I can't absolutely disprove the existence of a God, there is enough evidence to rule out the existence of an personal interventionist God or one that relates to any of the thousands of religions that humans have invented.

Nom de Plume wrote on Mar 8^th, 2018 at 10:06am:

Setanta wrote on Mar 8th, 2018 at 12:36am: Nom de Plume wrote on Mar 8th, 2018 at 12:11am: Setanta wrote on Mar 7th, 2018 at 11:21pm: Nom de Plume wrote on Mar 7th, 2018 at 7:11pm: I think there is more to it that. Atheist do not think that there is a Creator which intervenes in the universe. Untrue, I would class myself atheist. I cannot prove a god does not exist and I don't care to, I have better things to do with my life. I cannot prove a teapot does not orbit Alpha Centauri. I see no evidence of it. I just disbelieve in any god that man has come up with. I have disbelief in Faeries, Thor, Odin, Shiva, Ra, El, YWHY, Allah, etc, etc. Monotheists only differ from me in that they believe in one more god than I do. Edit: Oh, one other way we differ, they would kill for their beliefs, I have no deity to tell me to believe killing others is a good thing. Hark! We have a linguistic alchemist in our midst, capable of turning a simple statement about what atheist do not think, into a matter of proofs, lacking evidence. I can even say, huh?! Indubitably My Lord. However, pardon my boldness, what would be the the point? Would you like to be more intimately critical of what I said? I would thing god believing had lacking evidence was.. Oh never mind. As you wish My Lord. Antitheism is concerned with matters of proof, and I am not an Antitheist.

I don't think I have said anything that would put me in the antitheism camp although I must say it is tempting to be an antitheist when seeing how theists can behave.

I don't believe in an interventionist god.

Gordon wrote on Mar 8^th, 2018 at 8:59pm:

I don't believe in an interventionist god.

Nick Cave n' the Bad Seeds

Gods are man's attempt to explain the inexplicable. (Try saying inexplicable after a few drinks.) In as much, the concept would be fair, if people, with no more insight into the nature of reality than anyone else, would refrain from insisting they have this insight. Most of these, who have enlightenment self-administered, are very needy. The first requirement being the agreement of others. Its a pretty fair indication that, deep down, they are not convinced. Or, as is still common in primitive societies like Islam, the forced agreement of others is used as form of authority.

Thank god for the atheists  :o

DonDeeHippy wrote on Apr 21^st, 2018 at 9:37am:

Thank god for the atheists  :o

DonDeeHippy,

Was there any    standout    atheist individual in particular, with whom you are enamoured ?



Mao Zedong ?

Joseph Stalin ?

Adolf Hitler ?

The Khmer Rouge ?

The North Korean regime ?



IMAGE....
https://i0.wp.com/s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/86/7a/be/867abeddb37aff87f7e9bb190788e213--gestapo-the-holocaust.jpg



Regimes, and their body-counts....

1. Mao Zedong Catastrophes 1946-1976            Highest death toll estimates go up to 70 million.

2. Stalinist Crimes against humanity and genocide 1922-1953            Estimates before the release of the archives put those killed by Stalin as “low” as 3 million and as high as 60 million.

3. Nazi Holocaust 1939-1945            Best estimate at the number of people that were killed is 17 million.

4. Mass killings under Chinese Nationalist Government 1928-1946
    1 million Chinese civilians starved or killed in order to fend off communist advance
    Hundreds of thousands peasants and communist killed in political repression.
    1.75 to 2.5 million Chinese starving to death due to grain being confiscated and sold to other peasants for the profit of Nationalist Government officials.
    4.2 million Chinese perishing before even entering combat due starving to death or dying from disease during horrific conscription campaigns.
    440,000 to 893,000 Chinese civilians perishing in a man made flood by the Nationalist to stop a Japanese advance.

5. Japanese War Holocaust 1895-1945            .....some estimate between 3 and 14 million civilians and prisoners of war

6. Congo Free State Horrors 1885-1908            a commonly cited figure of 10 million deaths was obtained by estimating a 50% decline in the total population during the Congo Free State and applying it to the total population of 10 million in 1924.

7. Atrocities under Ranavalona I of Madagascar 1829-1842            ....the population of Madagascar is estimated to have declined from around 5 million to 2.5 million between 1833 and 1839, and from 750,000 to 130,000 between 1829 and 1842 in Imerina.

8. Khmer Rouge Holocaust 1975-1979            The Cambodian genocide  was carried out by the Khmer Rouge regime led by Pol Pot between 1975 and 1979 in which an estimated 1.5 to 3 million people died.

9. Young Turk’s Ottoman Holocaust 1913-1922            Death toll is the combined death tolls of the Armenian Genocide (800,000 to 1,500,000), Assyrian Genocide (150,000 to 300,000), and Greek Genocide(289,000 to 750,000), and combined with the Great Famine of Mount Lebanon (200,000).

10. North Korean Crimes against humanity 1948-present            Estimations of death toll go up from 710,000 to 3,500,000.


Source....

Quote:

List of Dictatorships by Death Toll – The Top 10 Biggest Mass Killings in History Posted by Alcibiades | Jul 10, 2017

https://about-history.com/list-of-dictatorships-by-death-toll-the-top-10-biggest-killers-in-history/




Please note.

Human history does have a tendency to keep repeating itself.     [....driven by our human ambition to acquire political power,      driven by our human ambition to acquire the 'trappings' and 'benefits' which such power always endows]

And i have no doubt, that we will continue this established trend.

The old Atheist Atrocity Fallacy

1. Adolf Hitler was a Christian

“Besides that, I believe one thing: there is a Lord God! And this Lord God creates the peoples.” ~Adolf Hitler

“We were convinced that the people need and require this faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations; we have stamped it out” ~Adolf Hitler

2. Pol Pot was a Bhuddist

3. Josef Stalin was an atheist but was raised as a Christian and his atrocities were politically motivated.

None of your list actually killed in the name of atheism. However, the spanish inquisition, the crusades, the witch hunts, Jihads, klu klux klan, IRA, India and Pakistan partition, ethnic cleansing in Yogolslavia, the holocaust were all religiously inspired atrocities and that is just the tip of the iceberg. I could go back to Mayan and Incan sacrifices

Quote:

Adolf Hitler was a Christian

....and the moon is made of green cheese.

But hey,       you are an atheist, so you already knew that!

Yadda wrote on Apr 21^st, 2018 at 8:51pm:

Quote: Adolf Hitler was a Christian ....and the moon is made of green cheese. But hey,       you are an atheist, so you already knew that!

That's a stupid reply, and I think even you know it.

You would be the first to cite the religion of the Islamic mass-murderers, and so would I, but I am not going to turnaround and say these other fanatics are not what they profess. That is what Islamophobia-theorists use as one of their principal defenses.

I converted from Atheism to Agnosticism quite some time ago.

As an atheist you believe that through reasoned argument you can hypothetically 'prove' the non-existence of a God.

As an agnostic you believe you are 'without the knowledge needed' to argue for or against the proposition that there is a God, and in this regard, everyone on Planet Earth is an Agnostic.

Wishful thinking has no place in arguing the fact of whether there is a Supreme Being or not.

"I believe ... "

"I have faith in the Almighty ... "

These emotional claims all have their basis in the human imagination and its psychology.

Barnacle said....
Quote:

Adolf Hitler was a Christian

Yadda wrote on Apr 21^st, 2018 at 8:51pm:

....and the moon is made of green cheese. But hey,       you are an atheist, so you already knew that!

issuevoter wrote on Apr 22^nd, 2018 at 7:55am:

That's a stupid reply, and I think even you know it.

issue,

Not at all [stupid].

I simply associated any person [like Barnacle] who would state that
'Adolf Hitler was a Christian',
with the intellectual dis-honesty of someone who would seek to have others believe,
that the moon was made of green cheese.

And i may say, that       it is stupid of you,      not to recognise that point of argument.





ARGUMENT;
Jesus reputedly called upon men to follow these principles in life;

Thou shalt do no murder.
Thou shalt not commit adultery.
Thou shalt not steal.
Thou shalt not bear false witness.
Honour thy father and thy mother.
Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Matthew 19:16-19


Yet,      though we know that Jesus reputedly left those admonitions for all men, as principles to follow in life,
Barnacle         would have us believe, that it is a credible statement to make,
to suggest that Adolf Hitler loved the teachings of Jesus [Christ] or that Adolf Hitler was an adherent of the teachings of Jesus [Christ],
and that    'Adolf Hitler was a Christian'.


How absurd,     for atheists like Barnacle,
to seek to associate the human ambitions and human motivations of a human being like Adolf Hitler,
with the moral ambitions [for mankind] of the [historical] personage of [the man] Jesus [Christ].



.



Matthew 7:21
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.


Matthew 12:47
Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.
48  But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
49  And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
50  For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.


As per......

Matthew 19:16
And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17  And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18  He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19  Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Yadda wrote on Apr 22^nd, 2018 at 7:41pm:

Barnacle said.... Quote: Adolf Hitler was a Christian Yadda wrote on Apr 21st, 2018 at 8:51pm: ....and the moon is made of green cheese. But hey,       you are an atheist, so you already knew that! issuevoter wrote on Apr 22nd, 2018 at 7:55am: That's a stupid reply, and I think even you know it. issue, Not at all [stupid]. I simply associated any person [like Barnacle] who would state that 'Adolf Hitler was a Christian', with the intellectual dis-honesty of someone who would seek to have others believe, that the moon was made of green cheese. And i may say, that       it is stupid of you,      not to recognise that point of argument. ARGUMENT; Jesus reputedly called upon men to follow these principles in life; Thou shalt do no murder. Thou shalt not commit adultery. Thou shalt not steal. Thou shalt not bear false witness. Honour thy father and thy mother. Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. Matthew 19:16-19 Yet,      though we know that Jesus reputedly left those admonitions for all men, as principles to follow in life, Barnacle         would have us believe, that it is a credible statement to make, to suggest that Adolf Hitler loved the teachings of Jesus [Christ] or that Adolf Hitler was an adherent of the teachings of Jesus [Christ], and that    'Adolf Hitler was a Christian'. How absurd,     for atheists like Barnacle, to seek to associate the human ambitions and human motivations of a human being like Adolf Hitler, with the moral ambitions [for mankind] of the [historical] personage of [the man] Jesus [Christ]. . Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Matthew 12:47 Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee. 48  But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren? 49  And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! 50  For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother. As per...... Matthew 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? 17  And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. 18  He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, 19  Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

You yourself call yourself a christian and come out with some things that Jesus, if he was real, would totally spit the dummy at, your cop out for this is that you are not perfect but forgiven. Perhaps Hitler was not perfect and is forgiven also.

Setanta wrote on Apr 22^nd, 2018 at 9:27pm:

You yourself call yourself a christian and come out with some things that Jesus, if he was real, would totally spit the dummy at, your cop out for this is that you are not perfect but forgiven.

You are correct,    .....probably.

I am a flawed human being.


Guilty.


"For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me."


Forgiven.





Setanta wrote on Apr 22^nd, 2018 at 9:27pm:

Perhaps Hitler was not perfect and is forgiven also.

And if it is true, would it offend you Setanta ?

And, are we [any of us], better than Hitler ?


'From whence come Hitlers among us ?'

"From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members?
Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not.
Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts."


We are all guilty before God mate.

All, dirty, and unworthy.


I don't in any sense, seek justification, from my creator.

I seek the healing he offers me.

Yadda wrote on Apr 22^nd, 2018 at 7:41pm:

issue, Not at all [stupid]. I simply associated any person [like Barnacle] who would state that 'Adolf Hitler was a Christian', with the intellectual dis-honesty of someone who would seek to have others believe, that the moon was made of green cheese. And i may say, that       it is stupid of you,      not to recognise that point of argument.

Bullsh1t. You thought you were being cleaver, but you had not thought it through.

@ Reply #36,


issue,      i assure you, i'm not that cleaver

Yadda wrote on Apr 22^nd, 2018 at 10:40pm:

Setanta wrote on Apr 22nd, 2018 at 9:27pm: You yourself call yourself a christian and come out with some things that Jesus, if he was real, would totally spit the dummy at, your cop out for this is that you are not perfect but forgiven. You are correct,    .....probably. I am a flawed human being. Guilty. "For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me." Forgiven. Setanta wrote on Apr 22nd, 2018 at 9:27pm: Perhaps Hitler was not perfect and is forgiven also. And if it is true, would it offend you Setanta ? And, are we [any of us], better than Hitler ? 'From whence come Hitlers among us ?' "From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members? Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not. Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts." We are all guilty before God mate. All, dirty, and unworthy. I don't in any sense, seek justification, from my creator. I seek the healing he offers me.

I don't think anyone is "forgiven" by a deity. I don't live my life like I have forgiveness. I live my life like I have to bear my "sins" myself without forgiveness. I bear my own folly and do not expect someone to save me. This forms my decisions, I don't have second chances or forgiveness. Lessons learned from my mistakes sit much more deeply with me than some one that is forgiven and bears no guilt. My decisions therefore are not made lightly. I accept personal responsibility.

Setanta wrote on Apr 23^rd, 2018 at 12:22am:

I don't think anyone is "forgiven" by a deity. I don't live my life like I have forgiveness. I live my life like I have to bear my "sins" myself without forgiveness. I bear my own folly and do not expect someone to save me. This forms my decisions, I don't have second chances or forgiveness. Lessons learned from my mistakes sit much more deeply with me than some one that is forgiven and bears no guilt. My decisions therefore are not made lightly. I accept personal responsibility.

That's just the Devil whispering in your ear.

issuevoter wrote on Apr 23^rd, 2018 at 7:38am:

Setanta wrote on Apr 23rd, 2018 at 12:22am: I don't think anyone is "forgiven" by a deity. I don't live my life like I have forgiveness. I live my life like I have to bear my "sins" myself without forgiveness. I bear my own folly and do not expect someone to save me. This forms my decisions, I don't have second chances or forgiveness. Lessons learned from my mistakes sit much more deeply with me than some one that is forgiven and bears no guilt. My decisions therefore are not made lightly. I accept personal responsibility. That's just the Devil whispering in your ear.

Damn...

Atheism is the word used by the Media/Scientific 'Anti' Religious part of the world, to describe their 'non-believing' of Religion, but their 'lack of' being able to believe in anything else.

They deny there was a Jewish Messiah, that was killed by his Jewish 'people'.
Even though recently, there was a Jewish 'people' killed by their Jewish 'prophet' back in the 1940's.

I wonder what the scientists are going to say about the Moslems changing their ways once a Messiah dies for their sins, out of France?
Explain that ...Science? :P
Explain the fundamental 'existence' of Religion itself?

It is not what atheism is, its what atheism is not.

As a concept and a term, it is the way God-freaks insist you choose one of three. God, what ever that means, No God, or "cannot make up your mind."

I reject all three.

Atheism needs theistic ideas to give it life. “Some of the most radical forms of atheism,” says John Gray, are indistinguishable from “some mystical varieties of religion”...
more

Yes, well ... I suppose by definition one can't be an atheist without there being theists.

I put it to you that humans are born "atheists" - at least not knowing about "gods" but are then taught about "gods".

The evidence?

If that were not true, then everybody would have the same "god".

Obviously, cultures teach their children about their particular "god" or "gods".

Frank wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2018 at 12:49pm:

Atheism needs theistic ideas to give it life. “Some of the most radical forms of atheism,” says John Gray, are indistinguishable from “some mystical varieties of religion”... more

Incorrect.
Atheism is simply the absence of a belief in a God
Whether theists exist or not is irrelevant

Lack of belief in God/s.

That doesn't mean an atheist asserts there is no God, that would be antitheism.

I assert that there is no god. I'm an atheist. I was once a Christian but changed my mind.

A little perspective why the Atheist state of mind exists.



Dear God believer,

Why don't you believe in any of the gods below?  Do you know why atheists don't believe in your god?  Atheists don't believe in any of these gods, you don't believe in almost all of them.  We are atheists towards a great many gods together.  Hopefully this list of gods that have all been believed in by some society or culture will help you realize that gods are created by men.

https://www.rationalresponders.com/a_big_list_of_gods_but_nowhere_near_all_of_them

Every Monotheist is actually an Athiest except when it comes to their chosen god ... ouch!


For those born again, religion makes a great safe space.

I like your work Fezz  :)

Captain Nemo wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2018 at 4:20pm:

I like your work Fezz  :)

Sure made things go quiet   ;D

Term Dog wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2018 at 2:44pm:

Lack of belief in God/s. That doesn't mean an atheist asserts there is no God, that would be antitheism.

An atheist who asserts there is no God is a "strong" atheist.

An atheist who lacks belief in God, but does not assert there is no God, is a "weak" atheist. It's the same as some definitions of agnosticism.

On the other hand, an antitheist opposes the practice of theism. Hitchens, Dawkins etc. are atheists  as well as antitheists.

For example:

"I'm not even an atheist so much as I am an antitheist; I not only maintain that all religions are versions of the same untruth, but I hold that the influence of churches, and the effect of religious belief, is positively harmful." -- Christopher Hitchens

Everyone is agnostic, you can either agnostic atheist or agnostic theist plus a bazillion other positions. Not everything is atheist or theist eg Buddhist are atheists as well as Australian Aboriginals.

The_Barnacle wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2018 at 2:19pm:

Frank wrote on Dec 2nd, 2018 at 12:49pm: Atheism needs theistic ideas to give it life. “Some of the most radical forms of atheism,” says John Gray, are indistinguishable from “some mystical varieties of religion”... more Incorrect. Atheism is simply the absence of a belief in a God Whether theists exist or not is irrelevant

Knee jerk stupidity.

Atheism needs theism to be able to identify with its absence. Theism always comes BEFORE atheism  - atheism is always a reaction.

Atheism is nothing more than an act of being ANTI - religious to any extent.

Atheism has no 'pro' ideals of its own, beyond just being 'ANTI' against Religion.

Where does Atheism come from?
Well its usually manifest in people from the Media, Celebrities, people who wear black skivvys, have a degree in Science, drink café lattes and voted YES for same-sex marriages. All the type of people who 'hate' Religion.

Jasin wrote on Dec 3^rd, 2018 at 9:05pm:

Where does Atheism come from? Well its usually manifest in people from the Media, Celebrities, people who wear black skivvys, have a degree in Science, drink café lattes and voted YES for same-sex marriages. All the type of people who 'hate' Religion.

So basically: smart people.

Robot wrote on Dec 3^rd, 2018 at 9:47pm:

Jasin wrote on Dec 3rd, 2018 at 9:05pm: Where does Atheism come from? Well its usually manifest in people from the Media, Celebrities, people who wear black skivvys, have a degree in Science, drink café lattes and voted YES for same-sex marriages. All the type of people who 'hate' Religion. So basically: smart people.

And if there was no Religion, there wouldn't be any Scientists.
Afterall - Europeans 'ate from the Tree of the Middle-Eastern knowledge'  ;) to get where they are now.

Atheism is itself a religion. It's not a theistic religion (nor is Buddhism) but a religion nonetheless.

Latin religare, to tie, to bind.  Bound together by shared belief.

Atheism is not believing in stupid old books full of nonsense.

Frank wrote on Dec 3^rd, 2018 at 7:39pm:

The_Barnacle wrote on Dec 2nd, 2018 at 2:19pm: Frank wrote on Dec 2nd, 2018 at 12:49pm: Atheism needs theistic ideas to give it life. “Some of the most radical forms of atheism,” says John Gray, are indistinguishable from “some mystical varieties of religion”... more Incorrect. Atheism is simply the absence of a belief in a God Whether theists exist or not is irrelevant Knee jerk stupidity. Atheism needs theism to be able to identify with its absence.

Are you talking about the word "Atheism"? Or the belief?

The belief that there is no God doeesn't require theists.
The label of Atheism is only required because there are theists.


Frank wrote on Dec 3^rd, 2018 at 7:39pm:

Theism always comes BEFORE atheism  - atheism is always a reaction.

 

Babies are born as atheists. It is only when parents indoctrinate them with their own particular religion that they become theists.

Atheists are anyone now - who adhere's the 'intellectual superiority of Science over Religion or anyone else'.

Basically, Atheists are Scientific SNOBS.

Speaking of smart people ...

Einstein’s ‘God Letter’ a viral hit from 1954

By James Barron
4 December 2018 — 2:24 pm

New York: If it were written now as a series of tweets, they would surely go viral.

Think of it: one of the most famous people in the world is panning religion.

"The word God is for me nothing but the expression of and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of venerable but still rather primitive legends," the message reads. "No interpretation, no matter how subtle, can (for me) change anything about this."

https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/879355674957926400/VSGZHGib_400x400.jpg

That is only 239 characters, including the spaces, periods and commas, well short of the 280-character limit for a tweet. And there is more where those words came from — a letter written in 1954 by Albert Einstein that is being auctioned this week. It provides a glimpse of Einstein's private thoughts and would probably be inflammatory in today's polarised social media world.

The 1½-page document, in German, became known a decade ago as the "God letter", a nickname that makes some Einstein experts wince. But while the letter has to do with his Jewish identity and mankind's search for meaning, Einstein used the word "God" only once in the letter, in the passage quoted above.

He sent the handwritten letter to Eric Gutkind, a German philosopher who had written a book called Choose Life: The biblical call to revolt that, apparently, Einstein did not much like. By one account, the book "presented the Bible as a call to arms, and Judaism and Israel as incorruptible." A review in Commentary magazine said Choose Life was "genuinely inspired by Jewish tradition" and "challenges a disillusioned generation to 'prepare the world for the Kingdom of God.'"

Einstein wrote in the letter that he was disenchanted with Judaism, even as he said he was proud to be a Jew. In the letter, Einstein declared:

"For me the unadulterated Jewish religion is, like all other religions, an incarnation of primitive superstition. And the Jewish people to whom I gladly belong, and in whose mentality I feel profoundly anchored, still for me does not have any different kind of dignity from all other peoples. As far as my experience goes, they are in fact no better than other human groups, even if they are protected from the worst excesses by a lack of power. Otherwise I cannot perceive anything 'chosen' about them."

The letter surfaced in 2008. Until then, it had apparently been in the hands of Gutkind's heirs (he died in 1965). And it rocketed into the universe of big-money auctions, selling for $US404,000 ($549,000) in London.

The buyer was not identified. The Guardian said that evolutionary biologist Richard Dawkins, an outspoken atheist, was one of the bidders who lost out.

Now the letter is on the market again. It will go on the block at Christie's on Tuesday, New York time. Christie's set a pre sale estimate of $US1 million to $US1.5 million. (The God letter was offered for sale on eBay for $US3 million in 2012. The auctioneer who handled the eBay listing said he could not discuss the outcome. A Christie's spokeswoman said that it did not sell then and that the person who bought it in 2008 is the seller now.)

https://www.theage.com.au/world/north-america/einstein-s-god-letter-a-viral-hit-from-1954-20181204-p50k42.html

Einstein: used only 10% of his brain to put forth a lot of 'Theories' after years working in a Patent Office where he had to scrutinise over everyone's 'Theories' that they sent in for registration.

Mind you. Darwin did the same with Wallace's field work in evolution.

Mind you. Edison had 50 people working for him - but he just put his name to the inventions.

Mind you - if it was for the Tree of Knowledge (religion), then you wouldn't have Science trying to eat from the Tree of Life, now would you?  ::)

Frank wrote on Dec 4^th, 2018 at 6:29pm:

Atheism is itself a religion. It's not a theistic religion (nor is Buddhism) but a religion nonetheless. Latin religare, to tie, to bind.  Bound together by shared belief.

That means pretty much everything that binds people together is a religion, every business,sport, hobby....etc.

Yet why can't these groups obtain tax benefits etc that God religions do.


Your definition is stupid.

Is it a religion? Its the absence of God in one belief.

By definition, Atheism is excluded from being a religion.
It is indeed the absence of belief in a god or gods.

Go check on the Census data to see where Atheism is categorised.

Hint: It comes under No Religion

The concept is one of definition by what it is not. That's one reason I am not an Atheist.

Term Dog wrote on Dec 5^th, 2018 at 6:17am:

Frank wrote on Dec 4th, 2018 at 6:29pm: Atheism is itself a religion. It's not a theistic religion (nor is Buddhism) but a religion nonetheless. Latin religare, to tie, to bind.  Bound together by shared belief. That means pretty much everything that binds people together is a religion, every business,sport, hobby....etc. Yet why can't these groups obtain tax benefits etc that God religions do. Your definition is stupid.

You are too narrow-minded and forgetful. Religion is not what the State permits or recognises as religion.  You are a statist, like a lot of atheists. You substitute the State for the Church as your supreme authority.

I wonder if atheism can be defined differently by different people. Of course it would be within some parameters such as not believing in an interventionist god. While I don't believe in god I suspect there is some level of rhyme and reason which gently nudges us in the direction we're meant to go.

I also suspect the concept of free will it probably not as free as we think it is.

I have no texts or respected publications to back this up, it's just where I've arrived after having the notion of god instilled into me by my family, then growing out of it.

Tally wrote on Dec 5^th, 2018 at 7:50pm:

I wonder if atheism can be defined differently by different people. Of course it would be within some parameters such as not believing in an interventionist god. While I don't believe in god I suspect there is some level of rhyme and reason which gently nudges us in the direction we're meant to go. I also suspect the concept of free will it probably not as free as we think it is. I have no texts or respected publications to back this up, it's just where I've arrived after having the notion of god instilled into me by my family, then growing out of it.

Different definitions are not definitions at all, they are opinions. A definition is definitive. What is the point of articulate language? If we don't agree on language we may as well sit around and grunt at each other. 

issuevoter wrote on Dec 6^th, 2018 at 1:50pm:

Tally wrote on Dec 5th, 2018 at 7:50pm: I wonder if atheism can be defined differently by different people. Of course it would be within some parameters such as not believing in an interventionist god. While I don't believe in god I suspect there is some level of rhyme and reason which gently nudges us in the direction we're meant to go. I also suspect the concept of free will it probably not as free as we think it is. I have no texts or respected publications to back this up, it's just where I've arrived after having the notion of god instilled into me by my family, then growing out of it. Different definitions are not definitions at all, they are opinions. A definition is definitive. What is the point of articulate language? If we don't agree on language we may as well sit around and grunt at each other.

:D WHAT IS 'ARTICULATE LANGUAGE' IF NOT A WORK IN PROGESS?

issuevoter wrote on Dec 5^th, 2018 at 4:47pm:

The concept is one of definition by what it is not. That's one reason I am not an Atheist.

I think you just sent me down the rabbit hole  :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o

Captain Nemo wrote on Dec 5^th, 2018 at 2:56pm:

By definition, Atheism is excluded from being a religion. It is indeed the absence of belief in a god or gods. Go check on the Census data to see where Atheism is categorised. Hint: It comes under No Religion

Right, because those who conduct the census have it all up there hey cuz!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  :D

Jasin wrote on Dec 4^th, 2018 at 8:28pm:

Atheists are anyone now - who adhere's the 'intellectual superiority of Science over Religion or anyone else'. Basically, Atheists are Scientific SNOBS.

I reckon that's your best statement on the internet ever!

Tally wrote on Dec 5^th, 2018 at 7:50pm:

I wonder if atheism can be defined differently by different people. Of course it would be within some parameters such as not believing in an interventionist god. While I don't believe in god I suspect there is some level of rhyme and reason which gently nudges us in the direction we're meant to go. I also suspect the concept of free will it probably not as free as we think it is. I have no texts or respected publications to back this up, it's just where I've arrived after having the notion of god instilled into me by my family, then growing out of it.

Were they Catholic? Were you taught by nuns?

TheFunPolice wrote on Dec 6^th, 2018 at 2:12pm:

Jasin wrote on Dec 4th, 2018 at 8:28pm: Atheists are anyone now - who adhere's the 'intellectual superiority of Science over Religion or anyone else'. Basically, Atheists are Scientific SNOBS. I reckon that's your best statement on the internet ever!

Who would have thought DRAH was into Rational Incompetents rather than Scientific Snobs?

Tally wrote on Dec 5^th, 2018 at 7:50pm:

I wonder if atheism can be defined differently by different people. Of course it would be within some parameters such as not believing in an interventionist god. While I don't believe in god I suspect there is some level of rhyme and reason which gently nudges us in the direction we're meant to go. I also suspect the concept of free will it probably not as free as we think it is. I have no texts or respected publications to back this up, it's just where I've arrived after having the notion of god instilled into me by my family, then growing out of it.

Humpty Dumpty theory of language.




"I don't know what you mean by 'glory'," Alice said.

Humpty Dumpty smiled contemptuously. "Of course you don't- till I tell you. I meant 'there's a nice knock-down argument for you!'"

"But 'glory' doesn't mean 'a nice knock-down argument'," Alice objected.

"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean- neither more nor less."

"The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things."

"The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master-that's all."

Alice was too much puzzled to say anything; so after a minute Humpty Dumpty began again. "They've a temper some of them- particularly verbs: they're the proudest- adjectives you can do anything with, but not verbs- however, I can manage the whole lot of them! Impenetrability! That's what I say!"

Through the Looking Glass, Ch. VI






And your 'suspicion' about free will - what MADE you say and think that? Why claim ideas as your own if you 'suspect' that you are not really free to arrive at them?

Labels trade brevity for accuracy.

The non-atheists here are making up a whole lot of crap to describe atheists.


It is more honest to ask another's position than their label.

My position is I don't have a belief in a theistic God. I am not claiming a God doesn't exist. I just don't hold a belief one does.

Call that position whatever label you want but don't try force your garbage  interpretation of my position on me with your label.

I do not claim to be an atheist, it's just that the god of the the "big three" religions, is a total dag.

Term Dog wrote on Dec 8^th, 2018 at 9:20am:

I am not claiming a God doesn't exist. I just don't hold a belief one does.

This is a contradiction. You are confused and bewildered. You don't have to believe anything but don't try to confuse yourself.


You don't believe that there is a god = you believe that there is no god = claiming that god doesn't exist.

Frank wrote on Dec 8^th, 2018 at 7:11pm:

Term Dog wrote on Dec 8th, 2018 at 9:20am: I am not claiming a God doesn't exist. I just don't hold a belief one does. This is a contradiction. You are confused and bewildered. You don't have to believe anything but don't try to confuse yourself. You don't believe that there is a god = you believe that there is no god = claiming that god doesn't exist.

Nope you are in error.

Not having a belief in X is not equivalent to the assertion X does not exist.

I don't hold a belief in the Yetti is not the same as Yetti do not exist.

Yetti may or may not exist, God may or may not exist I don't know. I do not possess a belief in a God or Yetti.

No inconsistency bro, learn some basic logic.

I don't believe in an interventionist god.

If anyone knew that the Christian God existed then they would no longer have faith God existed, they would simply know it.

If you don't have faith God exists because you know it then you can't choose to believe God exists.

hence knowing as a fact God exists means you have lost your faith and free will to choose to believe it and you won't go to heaven according to scripture.

Stupid religion imo.

Term Dog wrote on Dec 8^th, 2018 at 7:34pm:

Frank wrote on Dec 8th, 2018 at 7:11pm: Term Dog wrote on Dec 8th, 2018 at 9:20am: I am not claiming a God doesn't exist. I just don't hold a belief one does. This is a contradiction. You are confused and bewildered. You don't have to believe anything but don't try to confuse yourself. You don't believe that there is a god = you believe that there is no god = claiming that god doesn't exist. Nope you are in error. Not having a belief in X is not equivalent to the assertion X does not exist. I don't hold a belief in the Yetti is not the same as Yetti do not exist. Yetti may or may not exist, God may or may not exist I don't know. I do not possess a belief in a God or Yetti. No inconsistency bro, learn some basic logic.

So you are agnostic then - you don't know what you think.

Frank wrote on Dec 8^th, 2018 at 8:48pm:

Term Dog wrote on Dec 8th, 2018 at 7:34pm: Frank wrote on Dec 8th, 2018 at 7:11pm: Term Dog wrote on Dec 8th, 2018 at 9:20am: I am not claiming a God doesn't exist. I just don't hold a belief one does. This is a contradiction. You are confused and bewildered. You don't have to believe anything but don't try to confuse yourself. You don't believe that there is a god = you believe that there is no god = claiming that god doesn't exist. Nope you are in error. Not having a belief in X is not equivalent to the assertion X does not exist. I don't hold a belief in the Yetti is not the same as Yetti do not exist. Yetti may or may not exist, God may or may not exist I don't know. I do not possess a belief in a God or Yetti. No inconsistency bro, learn some basic logic. So you are agnostic then - you don't know what you think.

Everyone is agnostic, I said that in this thread.

You seem to not understand the relationship between  agnosticism, theism and atheism.

Perhaps you should do some research and stop making a fool of yourself.

Term Dog wrote on Dec 8^th, 2018 at 7:53pm:

If anyone knew that the Christian God existed then they would no longer have faith God existed, they would simply know it. If you don't have faith God exists because you know it then you can't choose to believe God exists. hence knowing as a fact God exists means you have lost your faith and free will to choose to believe it and you won't go to heaven according to scripture. Stupid religion imo.

People believe - know -  that god exists because they have experienced god. They don't ever say that they have faith in god's existence. They have faith in certain attributes of god, not in his existence.

In any case, it is all about experience, not knowledge. God being transcendent - not of time and space and matter - knowledge of him is nothing like knowledge of time, space and matter-bound things. What is left for humans, if not material knowledge?  Personal experience. That is why all the language around god is the language of personal relationships - love, mercy, hope, gratitude, resentment, revolt, etc. God is not a person but IS experienced on a personal level because he cannot be experienced as a material entity. Atheists probably think more about god than the religious because they are stuck in the (nonexistent) material attributes of god and revolt against them - revolt against their own misunderstanding.

Why is there something rather than nothing? God. God is the cause of Being. God IS Being. This has been the insight fro the ancient Greeks to Heidegger (Being and Time) and even Sartre (Being and Nothingness, Sartre's response to Heidegger).

There is NO getting away from god because there is no getting away from Being.

Frank wrote on Dec 8^th, 2018 at 9:01pm:

Term Dog wrote on Dec 8th, 2018 at 7:53pm: If anyone knew that the Christian God existed then they would no longer have faith God existed, they would simply know it. If you don't have faith God exists because you know it then you can't choose to believe God exists. hence knowing as a fact God exists means you have lost your faith and free will to choose to believe it and you won't go to heaven according to scripture. Stupid religion imo. People believe - know -  that god exists because they have experienced god. They don't ever say that they have faith in god's existence. They have faith in certain attributes of god, not in his existence. In any case, it is all about experience, not knowledge. God being transcendent - not of time and space and matter - knowledge of him is nothing like knowledge of time, space and matter-bound things. What is left for humans, if not material knowledge?  Personal experience. That is why all the language around god is the language of personal relationships - love, mercy, hope, gratitude, resentment, revolt, etc. God is not a person but IS experienced on a personal level because he cannot be experienced as a material entity. Atheists probably think more about god than the religious because they are stuck in the (nonexistent) material attributes of god and revolt against them - revolt against their own misunderstanding. Why is there something rather than nothing? God. God is the cause of Being. God IS Being. This has been the insight fro the ancient Greeks to Heidegger (Being and Time) and even Sartre (Being and Nothingness, Sartre's response to Heidegger). There is NO getting away from god because there is no getting away from Being.

What a smacking mess of a post. So do you believe God exists, know God exists or you believe you know???

What is this outside of time and space you speak of???

Where is it, how do you know it exists??

This experience you speak of, how do you know it's God you are experiencing, you said God is outside time and space. Were you outside time and space when you had the experience or was God inside time and space.

What even the fak does outside of time and space mean, it's equivalent to non-existence.

Term Dog wrote on Dec 8^th, 2018 at 9:15pm:

Frank wrote on Dec 8th, 2018 at 9:01pm: Term Dog wrote on Dec 8th, 2018 at 7:53pm: If anyone knew that the Christian God existed then they would no longer have faith God existed, they would simply know it. If you don't have faith God exists because you know it then you can't choose to believe God exists. hence knowing as a fact God exists means you have lost your faith and free will to choose to believe it and you won't go to heaven according to scripture. Stupid religion imo. People believe - know -  that god exists because they have experienced god. They don't ever say that they have faith in god's existence. They have faith in certain attributes of god, not in his existence. In any case, it is all about experience, not knowledge. God being transcendent - not of time and space and matter - knowledge of him is nothing like knowledge of time, space and matter-bound things. What is left for humans, if not material knowledge?  Personal experience. That is why all the language around god is the language of personal relationships - love, mercy, hope, gratitude, resentment, revolt, etc. God is not a person but IS experienced on a personal level because he cannot be experienced as a material entity. Atheists probably think more about god than the religious because they are stuck in the (nonexistent) material attributes of god and revolt against them - revolt against their own misunderstanding. Why is there something rather than nothing? God. God is the cause of Being. God IS Being. This has been the insight fro the ancient Greeks to Heidegger (Being and Time) and even Sartre (Being and Nothingness, Sartre's response to Heidegger). There is NO getting away from god because there is no getting away from Being. What a smacking mess of a post. So do you believe God exists, know God exists or you believe you know??? What is this outside of time and space you speak of??? Where is it, how do you know it exists?? This experience you speak of, how do you know it's God you are experiencing, you said God is outside time and space. Were you outside time and space when you had the experience or was God inside time and space. What even the fak does outside of time and space mean, it's equivalent to non-existence.

The whole point, the ONLY point of god is that he is NOT like you.

You do not know why and how anything that does exist in time and space NEEDS to exist or why - cause- or to what end they all exist.  The religious say it's god.

You do not even think of the question and call that 'never thought about it' 'atheism'. It' not ignorance, it's a self-imposed limitation of enquiry and questioning. Why?

Are you pointless? If not, what's the point of you? Are you an animal or are you a person? What MAKES you a person, rather than a mere animal? You'd rather not ask and call it atheism.i

The "ONLY" point of God is to be not like me. A rock is not like me, is a rock God?

Objective fact I am the only one like me, is everyone else God?


Seems like a pointless God if it's 'ONLY" point is to not be like me.

How am I created in its image if it's not like me.


Jesus according to the trinity is God and Jesus by necessity is just like me but he's not like me, WTF???

I do not know why anything needs to exist, the religious don't know either but they made up a name for their ignorance, that name is God as you say.

My Life is not pointless, it has whatever point I give it.

What question is it you claim I haven't thought of, is this a guessing Game?

By definition I am a type of animal, a mammal in fact. We are called human. Are you something else? Is your life pointless?

Quote:

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 15th, 2013 at 5:39pm: [Quote] Is this the Islam you are so keen to defend with your "fair deal" nonsense, what about those who no longer believe in that bullshit barfed up by a 7th century desert bandit do they deserve a fair deal like article 18 of the Universal declaration of human rights? Quote: 7 nations where atheism is punishable by death. All 7 establish Islam as the state religion. Pakistan,Saudi Arabia,Iran,Afghanistan,Sudan,Mauritania and the Maldives www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2012/12/10/the-seven-countries-where-...

I make no excuses for those nations and their laws, BV.  I merely recognise that it is their right to create and unfortunately impose those punishments.   It is terrible but I also recognise I have no right or ability to criticise them.  I am neither a member of their religion or a citizen of any of those nations.

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1379233325/0

[/quote]
Atheism is something that gets your head chopped off in Saudi Arabia, the Iranians started hanging atheists after the 1979 Islamic revolution.

Atheism is something that carries the death penalty in some Islamic parts of this world.


Brian feels like he can crticise Americans for the 2A despite the fact he doesn't live there and is not American yet his moral barnkruptcy doesn't allow him to crticise the Islamic death penalty for atheists

Term Dog wrote on Dec 8^th, 2018 at 9:40pm:

The "ONLY" point of God is to be not like me. A rock is not like me, is a rock God? Objective fact I am the only one like me, is everyone else God? Seems like a pointless God if it's 'ONLY" point is to not be like me. How am I created in its image if it's not like me. Jesus according to the trinity is God and Jesus by necessity is just like me but he's not like me, WTF??? I do not know why anything needs to exist, the religious don't know either but they made up a name for their ignorance, that name is God as you say. My Life is not pointless, it has whatever point I give it. What question is it you claim I haven't thought of, is this a guessing Game? By definition I am a type of animal, a mammal in fact. We are called human. Are you something else? Is your life pointless?

You exist because whatever point you assign to your existence?

Aren't you hopelessly self-centred and unable to think about anything but you?
.
You can't imagine god to be like you therefore there can't be a god to conceive of because you can imagine only yourself.

A bit self-obcessed.

There's plenty of dictionaries out there. They all pretty much say the same thing.

Frank wrote on Dec 9^th, 2018 at 12:04am:

Term Dog wrote on Dec 8th, 2018 at 9:40pm: The "ONLY" point of God is to be not like me. A rock is not like me, is a rock God? Objective fact I am the only one like me, is everyone else God? Seems like a pointless God if it's 'ONLY" point is to not be like me. How am I created in its image if it's not like me. Jesus according to the trinity is God and Jesus by necessity is just like me but he's not like me, WTF??? I do not know why anything needs to exist, the religious don't know either but they made up a name for their ignorance, that name is God as you say. My Life is not pointless, it has whatever point I give it. What question is it you claim I haven't thought of, is this a guessing Game? By definition I am a type of animal, a mammal in fact. We are called human. Are you something else? Is your life pointless? You exist because whatever point you assign to your existence? Aren't you hopelessly self-centred and unable to think about anything but you? . You can't imagine god to be like you therefore there can't be a god to conceive of because you can imagine only yourself. A bit self-obcessed.

You got the imagine bit right anyway.

What part of "Atheists don't believe in god" don't you understand?

Amadd wrote on Dec 10^th, 2018 at 11:17am:

What part of "Atheists don't believe in god" don't you understand?

Some people just don't get the nuance, disbelief != belief and they are usually the religious.

issuevoter wrote on Dec 10^th, 2018 at 7:00am:

Frank wrote on Dec 9th, 2018 at 12:04am: Term Dog wrote on Dec 8th, 2018 at 9:40pm: The "ONLY" point of God is to be not like me. A rock is not like me, is a rock God? Objective fact I am the only one like me, is everyone else God? Seems like a pointless God if it's 'ONLY" point is to not be like me. How am I created in its image if it's not like me. Jesus according to the trinity is God and Jesus by necessity is just like me but he's not like me, WTF??? I do not know why anything needs to exist, the religious don't know either but they made up a name for their ignorance, that name is God as you say. My Life is not pointless, it has whatever point I give it. What question is it you claim I haven't thought of, is this a guessing Game? By definition I am a type of animal, a mammal in fact. We are called human. Are you something else? Is your life pointless? You exist because whatever point you assign to your existence? Aren't you hopelessly self-centred and unable to think about anything but you? . You can't imagine god to be like you therefore there can't be a god to conceive of because you can imagine only yourself. A bit self-obcessed. You got the imagine bit right anyway.

All your perceptions about yourself, your family and friends are imagined. Your own understanding of who you are is is purely a work of imagination. Same about all your friends and family. So why not god?

Frank wrote on Dec 12^th, 2018 at 11:11pm:

issuevoter wrote on Dec 10th, 2018 at 7:00am: Frank wrote on Dec 9th, 2018 at 12:04am: Term Dog wrote on Dec 8th, 2018 at 9:40pm: The "ONLY" point of God is to be not like me. A rock is not like me, is a rock God? Objective fact I am the only one like me, is everyone else God? Seems like a pointless God if it's 'ONLY" point is to not be like me. How am I created in its image if it's not like me. Jesus according to the trinity is God and Jesus by necessity is just like me but he's not like me, WTF??? I do not know why anything needs to exist, the religious don't know either but they made up a name for their ignorance, that name is God as you say. My Life is not pointless, it has whatever point I give it. What question is it you claim I haven't thought of, is this a guessing Game? By definition I am a type of animal, a mammal in fact. We are called human. Are you something else? Is your life pointless? You exist because whatever point you assign to your existence? Aren't you hopelessly self-centred and unable to think about anything but you? . You can't imagine god to be like you therefore there can't be a god to conceive of because you can imagine only yourself. A bit self-obcessed. You got the imagine bit right anyway. All your perceptions about yourself, your family and friends are imagined. Your own understanding of who you are is is purely a work of imagination. Same about all your friends and family. So why not god?

Exactly: god is your imaginary friend.

Some day some one may imagine an interesting god. So far, they have not.

Frank wrote on Dec 12^th, 2018 at 11:11pm:

issuevoter wrote on Dec 10th, 2018 at 7:00am: Frank wrote on Dec 9th, 2018 at 12:04am: Term Dog wrote on Dec 8th, 2018 at 9:40pm: The "ONLY" point of God is to be not like me. A rock is not like me, is a rock God? Objective fact I am the only one like me, is everyone else God? Seems like a pointless God if it's 'ONLY" point is to not be like me. How am I created in its image if it's not like me. Jesus according to the trinity is God and Jesus by necessity is just like me but he's not like me, WTF??? I do not know why anything needs to exist, the religious don't know either but they made up a name for their ignorance, that name is God as you say. My Life is not pointless, it has whatever point I give it. What question is it you claim I haven't thought of, is this a guessing Game? By definition I am a type of animal, a mammal in fact. We are called human. Are you something else? Is your life pointless? You exist because whatever point you assign to your existence? Aren't you hopelessly self-centred and unable to think about anything but you? . You can't imagine god to be like you therefore there can't be a god to conceive of because you can imagine only yourself. A bit self-obcessed. You got the imagine bit right anyway. All your perceptions about yourself, your family and friends are imagined. Your own understanding of who you are is is purely a work of imagination. Same about all your friends and family. So why not god?

Geez, you really know you've run out of arguments when you have to pull this one out. Would have looked less stupid by saying nothing.

Term Dog wrote on Dec 13^th, 2018 at 6:32am:

Frank wrote on Dec 12th, 2018 at 11:11pm: issuevoter wrote on Dec 10th, 2018 at 7:00am: Frank wrote on Dec 9th, 2018 at 12:04am: Term Dog wrote on Dec 8th, 2018 at 9:40pm: The "ONLY" point of God is to be not like me. A rock is not like me, is a rock God? Objective fact I am the only one like me, is everyone else God? Seems like a pointless God if it's 'ONLY" point is to not be like me. How am I created in its image if it's not like me. Jesus according to the trinity is God and Jesus by necessity is just like me but he's not like me, WTF??? I do not know why anything needs to exist, the religious don't know either but they made up a name for their ignorance, that name is God as you say. My Life is not pointless, it has whatever point I give it. What question is it you claim I haven't thought of, is this a guessing Game? By definition I am a type of animal, a mammal in fact. We are called human. Are you something else? Is your life pointless? You exist because whatever point you assign to your existence? Aren't you hopelessly self-centred and unable to think about anything but you? . You can't imagine god to be like you therefore there can't be a god to conceive of because you can imagine only yourself. A bit self-obcessed. You got the imagine bit right anyway. All your perceptions about yourself, your family and friends are imagined. Your own understanding of who you are is is purely a work of imagination. Same about all your friends and family. So why not god? Geez, you really know you've run out of arguments when you have to pull this one out. Would have looked less stupid by saying nothing.

Tell me one thing you know without it being mediated by your imagination, by language, by that singular thing, unshared by anyone else called you.

Just because you have never thought beyond your nose doesn't mean that there is nothing beyond what you have ever thought of. You are not the centre of he world, you are just the centre of your own world.

Not the same thing. When you die it's not the end of he world, it's just the end of you.

Frank wrote on Dec 13^th, 2018 at 8:22pm:

Term Dog wrote on Dec 13th, 2018 at 6:32am: Frank wrote on Dec 12th, 2018 at 11:11pm: issuevoter wrote on Dec 10th, 2018 at 7:00am: Frank wrote on Dec 9th, 2018 at 12:04am: Term Dog wrote on Dec 8th, 2018 at 9:40pm: The "ONLY" point of God is to be not like me. A rock is not like me, is a rock God? Objective fact I am the only one like me, is everyone else God? Seems like a pointless God if it's 'ONLY" point is to not be like me. How am I created in its image if it's not like me. Jesus according to the trinity is God and Jesus by necessity is just like me but he's not like me, WTF??? I do not know why anything needs to exist, the religious don't know either but they made up a name for their ignorance, that name is God as you say. My Life is not pointless, it has whatever point I give it. What question is it you claim I haven't thought of, is this a guessing Game? By definition I am a type of animal, a mammal in fact. We are called human. Are you something else? Is your life pointless? You exist because whatever point you assign to your existence? Aren't you hopelessly self-centred and unable to think about anything but you? . You can't imagine god to be like you therefore there can't be a god to conceive of because you can imagine only yourself. A bit self-obcessed. You got the imagine bit right anyway. All your perceptions about yourself, your family and friends are imagined. Your own understanding of who you are is is purely a work of imagination. Same about all your friends and family. So why not god? Geez, you really know you've run out of arguments when you have to pull this one out. Would have looked less stupid by saying nothing. Tell me one thing you know without it being mediated by your imagination, by language, by that singular thing, unshared by anyone else called you. Just because you have never thought beyond your nose doesn't mean that there is nothing beyond what you have ever thought of. You are not the centre of he world, you are just the centre of your own world. Not the same thing. When you die it's not the end of he world, it's just the end of you.

Frank is going into deep anaphylactic brain shock because some people don't have a belief in a God.




LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL

Term Dog wrote on Dec 13^th, 2018 at 8:34pm:

Frank wrote on Dec 13th, 2018 at 8:22pm: Term Dog wrote on Dec 13th, 2018 at 6:32am: Frank wrote on Dec 12th, 2018 at 11:11pm: issuevoter wrote on Dec 10th, 2018 at 7:00am: Frank wrote on Dec 9th, 2018 at 12:04am: Term Dog wrote on Dec 8th, 2018 at 9:40pm: The "ONLY" point of God is to be not like me. A rock is not like me, is a rock God? Objective fact I am the only one like me, is everyone else God? Seems like a pointless God if it's 'ONLY" point is to not be like me. How am I created in its image if it's not like me. Jesus according to the trinity is God and Jesus by necessity is just like me but he's not like me, WTF??? I do not know why anything needs to exist, the religious don't know either but they made up a name for their ignorance, that name is God as you say. My Life is not pointless, it has whatever point I give it. What question is it you claim I haven't thought of, is this a guessing Game? By definition I am a type of animal, a mammal in fact. We are called human. Are you something else? Is your life pointless? You exist because whatever point you assign to your existence? Aren't you hopelessly self-centred and unable to think about anything but you? . You can't imagine god to be like you therefore there can't be a god to conceive of because you can imagine only yourself. A bit self-obcessed. You got the imagine bit right anyway. All your perceptions about yourself, your family and friends are imagined. Your own understanding of who you are is is purely a work of imagination. Same about all your friends and family. So why not god? Geez, you really know you've run out of arguments when you have to pull this one out. Would have looked less stupid by saying nothing. Tell me one thing you know without it being mediated by your imagination, by language, by that singular thing, unshared by anyone else called you. Just because you have never thought beyond your nose doesn't mean that there is nothing beyond what you have ever thought of. You are not the centre of he world, you are just the centre of your own world. Not the same thing. When you die it's not the end of he world, it's just the end of you. Frank is going into deep anaphylactic brain shock because some people don't have a belief in a God. LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL

Everything in your head is a belief, mong, god, no god - all is nothing but beliefs.  You are just as much a believer as a devout Catholic. You are just too stupid to realise it, so you deny it.
That's your belief, that denial. It is no more solidly founded that the belief in God. But you are just too thick to even look at your own beliefs and examine their foundation.

Frank wrote on Dec 14^th, 2018 at 7:39pm:

Term Dog wrote on Dec 13th, 2018 at 8:34pm: Frank wrote on Dec 13th, 2018 at 8:22pm: Term Dog wrote on Dec 13th, 2018 at 6:32am: Frank wrote on Dec 12th, 2018 at 11:11pm: issuevoter wrote on Dec 10th, 2018 at 7:00am: Frank wrote on Dec 9th, 2018 at 12:04am: Term Dog wrote on Dec 8th, 2018 at 9:40pm: The "ONLY" point of God is to be not like me. A rock is not like me, is a rock God? Objective fact I am the only one like me, is everyone else God? Seems like a pointless God if it's 'ONLY" point is to not be like me. How am I created in its image if it's not like me. Jesus according to the trinity is God and Jesus by necessity is just like me but he's not like me, WTF??? I do not know why anything needs to exist, the religious don't know either but they made up a name for their ignorance, that name is God as you say. My Life is not pointless, it has whatever point I give it. What question is it you claim I haven't thought of, is this a guessing Game? By definition I am a type of animal, a mammal in fact. We are called human. Are you something else? Is your life pointless? You exist because whatever point you assign to your existence? Aren't you hopelessly self-centred and unable to think about anything but you? . You can't imagine god to be like you therefore there can't be a god to conceive of because you can imagine only yourself. A bit self-obcessed. You got the imagine bit right anyway. All your perceptions about yourself, your family and friends are imagined. Your own understanding of who you are is is purely a work of imagination. Same about all your friends and family. So why not god? Geez, you really know you've run out of arguments when you have to pull this one out. Would have looked less stupid by saying nothing. Tell me one thing you know without it being mediated by your imagination, by language, by that singular thing, unshared by anyone else called you. Just because you have never thought beyond your nose doesn't mean that there is nothing beyond what you have ever thought of. You are not the centre of he world, you are just the centre of your own world. Not the same thing. When you die it's not the end of he world, it's just the end of you. Frank is going into deep anaphylactic brain shock because some people don't have a belief in a God. LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL Everything in your head is a belief, mong, god, no god - all is nothing but beliefs.  You are just as much a believer as a devout Catholic. You are just too stupid to realise it, so you deny it. That's your belief, that denial. It is no more solidly founded that the belief in God. But you are just too thick to even look at your own beliefs and examine their foundation.

Yes I have many beliefs, a belief in a God is not one of them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VOgFZfRVaww

In my mind I imagine myself to be a Chad......does that mean I am Chad?

.

Captain Nemo wrote on Dec 15^th, 2018 at 9:41am:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VOgFZfRVaww

:'(
There isnt a more banal song than this and there isn't  a more vacuous man than this mouthy scouser git.

Aussie wrote on Mar 7^th, 2018 at 11:37am:

The_Barnacle wrote on Mar 7th, 2018 at 11:18am: Judging by some of the comments on other threads there seems to be some differing opinions on exactly what atheism is. So what is atheism to you? A belief that God does not exist.

What is 'god' that you do nof believe exist, thicko?  There is chaos in your head, Arsie.
You do not believe in a concept you have created in your own head. WOW! Edgy, for a taxi driver.

Frank wrote on Dec 15^th, 2018 at 1:04pm:

Captain Nemo wrote on Dec 15th, 2018 at 9:41am: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VOgFZfRVaww :'( There isnt a more banal song than this and there isn't  a more vacuous man than this mouthy scouser git.

I really dislike that song.

Moreover, his last album was probably the worst album I've ever heard (can't remember the name).

Insipid crap.

Having said that, I'm a big fan of the Beatles and recently spent a couple of days at Abbey Rd recording studios.

Lennon's solo work was just horrible though.

greggerypeccary wrote on Dec 17^th, 2018 at 7:39pm:

Frank wrote on Dec 15th, 2018 at 1:04pm: Captain Nemo wrote on Dec 15th, 2018 at 9:41am: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VOgFZfRVaww :'( There isnt a more banal song than this and there isn't  a more vacuous man than this mouthy scouser git. I really dislike that song. Moreover, his last album was probably the worst album I've ever heard (can't remember the name). Insipid crap. Having said that, I'm a big fan of the Beatles and recently spent a couple of days at Abbey Rd recording studios. Lennon's solo work was just horrible though.

'Double Fantasy' - that was it.

My wife, God rest her soul, loved that album and I had to listen to it day and night back in the early '80s.

I never had the heart to tell her how much I disliked it.

About 10 years ago I met this amazing American bass player, through a musician mate of mine, and I was telling him how much I thought the album sucked.

Turns out he played bass on it   :-[

D'oh!

(Tony Levin)

Just to clense that banality...

https://youtu.be/L-Ds-FXGGQg

And bonus reality....

https://youtu.be/9s4oSjAC7wg

Frank wrote on Dec 17^th, 2018 at 8:32pm:

Just to clense that banality... https://youtu.be/L-Ds-FXGGQg

Springsteen on Broadway was added to Netflix last night.

I watched it as soon as it was released - very good!

greggerypeccary wrote on Dec 17^th, 2018 at 8:46pm:

Frank wrote on Dec 17th, 2018 at 8:32pm: Just to clense that banality... https://youtu.be/L-Ds-FXGGQg Springsteen on Broadway was added to Netflix last night. I watched it as soon as it was released - very good!

On my wishlist.

Term Dog wrote on Dec 15^th, 2018 at 9:54am:

In my mind I imagine myself to be a Chad......does that mean I am Chad?

I thought you're a Matt?

The Reboot wrote on Dec 24^th, 2018 at 12:00pm:

Term Dog wrote on Dec 15th, 2018 at 9:54am: In my mind I imagine myself to be a Chad......does that mean I am Chad? I thought you're a Matt?

Do you believe in Matt??

Aussie wrote on Mar 7^th, 2018 at 11:37am:

The_Barnacle wrote on Mar 7th, 2018 at 11:18am: Judging by some of the comments on other threads there seems to be some differing opinions on exactly what atheism is. So what is atheism to you? A belief that God does not exist.

That's positive atheism only. 

"Negative atheism, also called weak atheism and soft atheism, is any type of atheism where a person does not believe in any deities but does not explicitly assert that there are none. "

A general description of an atheist that covers both is "A person who does not believe in God or gods"

That's different from Agnosticism, where the key word is "know" as opposed to "believe".

Personally I am an apatheist, so this will be my last post on the subject. I have a tendency to fall asleep when asked if I am an atheist or a theists. Neither position is important to me.

Maybe there is a God, and maybe there is not, but it's boring as sheet and life is too short.

John_Taverner wrote on Mar 21^st, 2020 at 12:18pm:

Aussie wrote on Mar 7th, 2018 at 11:37am: The_Barnacle wrote on Mar 7th, 2018 at 11:18am: Judging by some of the comments on other threads there seems to be some differing opinions on exactly what atheism is. So what is atheism to you? A belief that God does not exist. That's positive atheism only.  "Negative atheism, also called weak atheism and soft atheism, is any type of atheism where a person does not believe in any deities but does not explicitly assert that there are none. " A general description of an atheist that covers both is "A person who does not believe in God or gods" That's different from Agnosticism, where the key word is "know" as opposed to "believe". Personally I am an apatheist, so this will be my last post on the subject. I have a tendency to fall asleep when asked if I am an atheist or a theists. Neither position is important to me. Maybe there is a God, and maybe there is not, but it's boring as sheet and life is too short.

I agree to some extent, but the problem is that one can never really know what another person means by "God." Oh, sure, there are all kinds of ostensible agreements, but they cannot be clarified with any certainty. One thing is for certain though. I do not share my Granny's interpretation of God. It was infantile, just as most are.

Atheism is the certainty there is no God founded on the belief our rationality is infallible and the totality of our human condition.

God is an invisible being that rules over a People of Religion.
For the Emperor of the Middle-East rules over an Invisible People in his Military prowess.

You could say that the C.I.A is the 'Invisible' god of Politics that will soon be exposed, while the god of Art vanishes from the scene of the crime.

An Atheist is some-one who's existence is reliant upon Religion to be an 'Anti' (parasite on the Religious 'host').

...though many Atheists are now moving away from the 'Anti' towards being 'Pro' Science in their bias. Usually wearing a black skivvy, shaved head, drinking cafe lattes and talking Celebrity Speech among friends.

...but doing that voids the 'Atheist' label altogether. You could say, that Atheism suddenly snuffs itself out like an invisible god.

The_Barnacle wrote on Mar 7^th, 2018 at 11:18am:

Judging by some of the comments on other threads there seems to be some differing opinions on exactly what atheism is. So what is atheism to you?

It is nihilism.

Here is one example of a Nihilist Testament.

Atheism even lacks a Logo. :D

Jasin wrote on Jul 2^nd, 2020 at 7:27pm:

Atheism even lacks a Logo. :D

Logo or Icon?


https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6d/Christ_Pantocrator_mosaic_from_Hagia_Sophia_2744_x_2900_pixels_3.1_MB.jpg/800px-Christ_Pantocrator_mosaic_from_Hagia_Sophia_2744_x_2900_pixels_3.1_MB.jpg

;D
Whatever fits?!

I reckon Atheists are just a secretive society of Mediarites & Scientists trying to destroy Religion.

Jasin wrote on Jul 2^nd, 2020 at 11:21pm:

;D Whatever fits?! I reckon Atheists are just a secretive society of Mediarites & Scientists trying to destroy Religion.

I'm not in the media, don't work as a scientist and I'm not secretive. It's just when people tell me about their god, I listen, comprehend then dismiss their god. "Sorry, I can't believe that!" Moves on.

Setanta wrote on Jul 2^nd, 2020 at 11:31pm:

Jasin wrote on Jul 2nd, 2020 at 11:21pm: ;D Whatever fits?! I reckon Atheists are just a secretive society of Mediarites & Scientists trying to destroy Religion. I'm not in the media, don't work as a scientist and I'm not secretive. It's just when people tell me about their god, I listen, comprehend then dismiss their god. "Sorry, I can't believe that!" Moves on.

But wether right or wrong. The Story still exists. It's right there in a Book. It's one of the best 'inventions' ever made. God was created for the children who grew with no parents - and then their eyes were opened to the mystery within a book and the curse of a bloodline that became 'chosen'.

If you believe in Frodo and the elves, you will live forever.

Setanta wrote on Jul 2^nd, 2020 at 11:31pm:

Jasin wrote on Jul 2nd, 2020 at 11:21pm: ;D Whatever fits?! I reckon Atheists are just a secretive society of Mediarites & Scientists trying to destroy Religion. I'm not in the media, don't work as a scientist and I'm not secretive. It's just when people tell me about their god, I listen, comprehend then dismiss their god. "Sorry, I can't believe that!" Moves on.

A comprehended god is no god.






But





“Go to the Limits of Your Longing”
by Rainer Maria Rilke

God speaks to each of us as he makes us,
then walks with us silently out of the night.

These are the words we dimly hear:

You, sent out beyond your recall,
go to the limits of your longing.
Embody me.

Flare up like a flame
and make big shadows I can move in.

Let everything happen to you: beauty and terror.
Just keep going. No feeling is final.
Don’t let yourself lose me.

Nearby is the country they call life.
You will know it by its seriousness.

Give me your hand.

Captain Nemo wrote on Jul 3^rd, 2020 at 9:33am:

If you believe in Frodo and the elves, you will live forever.

I believe in Elves. Especially the tall blonde Aryan-Angel type with the blue eyes (White Dragon by Anne McCathry, then there's the Targaryen White Dragonkind) and the Presidential name of Lawrence (...of Abrabia). It's only fitting he lets his little Dwarven red-Ranga mate Trump (The Trumps of Doom by Roger Zelazny) come in first to open the door and introduce him like a Lightning Rod to test the power of the enemy.  ;)  And much more.
You see, it's been written.

He's even been seen back in WW2 against the Japs.
Merry Christmas Mr ...Lawrence.

---

Raven has said this in another thread but....

Atheism, in part, means doing what is right without the promise of eternal reward or the fear of divine retribution.

So let me get this right. Atheism is a 'moral code' without the use of Religious connections.
??
Where art though 'moral code' of Atheism? Is it Scientology? Science's moment of 'religious' experimentation?

Atheism seems more an invisible 'god' than Religion does.

Captain Nemo wrote on Jul 3^rd, 2020 at 9:33am:

If you believe in Frodo and the elves, you will live forever.

"When people stop believing in God, they do not believe in nothing. They believe in anything."
- G.K. Chesterton

I stopped believing in Christianity - the gateway to Europe.
Judaism - the gateway to Asia.
Mohommedism - the gateway to Africa.

I believe in North America's gateway to Asia.
South America's gate way to Europe.
Sahul's gateway to Africa (via the Boongs).

If you can believe an Aboriginal to Africa, more than you can believe Islam.
Then you can believe a South American called Don Quixote - lost in time like an indigenous Conquistador, as a gate way to Europe.

Christianity, like Judaism and Mohommedism - is just a big fat lie.

Jasin wrote on Jul 5^th, 2020 at 8:08am:

So let me get this right. Atheism is a 'moral code' without the use of Religious connections. ?? Where art though 'moral code' of Atheism? Is it Scientology? Science's moment of 'religious' experimentation? Atheism seems more an invisible 'god' than Religion does.

Does one need religion to have a moral code?

Raven would argue our morality stems from nature rather then religion.

We are a social animal. That has been a major role in our success on this planet. As such our early ancestors relied upon each other to survive. Therefore we naturally developed a code of conduct between ourselves to ensure our survival. This predates religion.

Religion's claim of being the sole source of human morality is false.

Aboriginal 'culture' and the Religion of Islam are very much alike. One is a moral code and the other a 'practice'. Both lean towards the 'Land' or 'Holy Land' and to Africa in the end.

Both Islam and Aboriginal culture now 'serve' Africa.
Just like Sport does too  ;)

A Lutheran, a Christian Scientist, an evangelical  Christian and a Bahá’í walked into a bar… well, actually it was a meeting room at Harvard University and they weren’t there for a palsy-walsy pint. Their mission was to elect the new president of Harvard’s organisation of chaplains, which they did in a unanimous vote. Some gag. Can we get to the punchline?

The new president is ‘humanist chaplain’ Greg Epstein, author of Good Without God. 

He’s an atheist. 

To Mr. Epstein, becoming the organization’s head, especially as it gains more recognition from the university, comes as affirmation of a yearslong effort, started by his predecessor, to teach a campus with traditional religious roots about humanism.

“We don’t look to a god for answers,” Mr. Epstein said. “We are each other’s answers.”

Which might be all very well for an advisor, a counsellor or a philosopher, but a chaplain?   

“Maybe in a more conservative university climate there might be a question like ‘What the heck are they doing at Harvard, having a humanist be the president of the chaplains?’” said Margit Hammerstrom, the Christian Science chaplain at Harvard. “But in this environment it works.”

Well, this is Harvard where biology professor Carole Hooven was recently castigated by the director of the department’s diversity and inclusion taskforce for ‘transphobic and harmful remarks’ when she lamented the use of the term ‘pregnant people’ and other prescribed terminology unhinged from biology.

https://www.spectator.com.au/2021/09/whats-woke-this-week-54/

Frank wrote on Sep 3^rd, 2021 at 6:29pm:

A Lutheran, a Christian Scientist, an evangelical  Christian and a Bahá’í walked into a bar… well,

Why not offer to put yourself forward as God’s spokesperson?

Raven wrote on Jul 5^th, 2020 at 3:06am:

Raven has said this in another thread but.... Atheism, in part, means doing what is right without the promise of eternal reward or the fear of divine retribution.

"Atheism" is silent on morality. I think you mean Humanism.

John_Taverner wrote on Oct 14^th, 2021 at 9:25am:

Raven wrote on Jul 5th, 2020 at 3:06am: Raven has said this in another thread but.... Atheism, in part, means doing what is right without the promise of eternal reward or the fear of divine retribution. "Atheism" is silent on morality. I think you mean Humanism.

Atheism is more complex than most believe.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism
For me the bottom line is all concepts of God are equally meaningless. intance, how do we meaningfully define an entity which is infinate?

Ayn Marx wrote on Oct 14^th, 2021 at 10:05am:

John_Taverner wrote on Oct 14th, 2021 at 9:25am: Raven wrote on Jul 5th, 2020 at 3:06am: Raven has said this in another thread but.... Atheism, in part, means doing what is right without the promise of eternal reward or the fear of divine retribution. "Atheism" is silent on morality. I think you mean Humanism. Atheism is more complex than most believe. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism For me the bottom line is all concepts of God are equally meaningless. intance, how do we meaningfully define an entity which is infinate?

According to Spinoza, everything that exists is either a substance or a mode (E1a1). A substance is something that needs nothing else in order to exist or be conceived. Substances are independent entities both conceptually and ontologically (E1d3). A mode or property is something that needs a substance in order to exist, and cannot exist without a substance (E1d5). For example, being furry, orange, hungry, angry, etc. are modes that need a substance which is furry, orange, hungry, angry, etc. Hunger and patches of orange color cannot exist floating around on their own, but rather, hunger and patches of orange color need something (namely, a substance) to be hungry and have the orange color. Hunger and colors are, therefore, dependent entities or modes.

According to almost all of Spinoza’s predecessors (including Aristotle and Descartes) there are lots of substances in the universe, each with their own modes or properties. For example, according to Descartes a cat is a substance which has the modes or properties of being furry, orange, soft, etc. (Though some have argued that Descartes cannot actually individuate multiple extended substances. See Curley 1988, 15-19; 141-2 n. 9.) Spinoza, however, rejects this traditional view and argues instead that there is only one substance, called “God” or “Nature.” Cats, dogs, people, rocks, etc. are not substances in Spinoza’s view, but rather, cats, dogs, people, rocks, etc. are just modes or properties of one substance. This one substance is simply people-like in places, rock-like in other places, chair-like in still other places, etc.

One can think of substance as an infinite space. Some regions of this one space are hard and brown (rocks), other regions of space are green, juicy, and soft (plants), while still other regions are furry, orange, and soft (cats), etc. As a cat walks across the room all that happens in Spinoza’s view is that different regions of space become successively furry, orange, and soft (See Bennett 1984: 88-92 for more on space and the extended substance in Spinoza).

This one substance has an infinite number of attributes. An attribute is simply an essence; a “what it is to be” that kind of thing. According to Descartes, every substance has only one attribute: bodies have only the attribute of extension, and minds have only the attribute of thought. Spinoza, however, argues against this claim that the one substance is absolutely infinite and so it must exist in every way that something can exist. Thus, he infers that the one substance must have an infinite number of attributes (E1p9). An attribute, according to Spinoza, is just the essence of substance under some way of conceiving or describing the substance (E1d4). When we consider substance one way, then we conceive of its essence as extension. When we consider substance another way, then we conceive of its essence as thought. (See Della Rocca 1996a: 164-167.) While substance has an infinite number of different attributes, Spinoza argues that human beings only know about two of them: extension and thought.
Etc

Frank wrote on Oct 14^th, 2021 at 11:12am:

Ayn Marx wrote on Oct 14th, 2021 at 10:05am: John_Taverner wrote on Oct 14th, 2021 at 9:25am: Raven wrote on Jul 5th, 2020 at 3:06am: Raven has said this in another thread but.... Atheism, in part, means doing what is right without the promise of eternal reward or the fear of divine retribution. "Atheism" is silent on morality. I think you mean Humanism. Atheism is more complex than most believe. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism For me the bottom line is all concepts of God are equally meaningless. instance, how do we meaningfully define an entity which is infinate? According to Spinoza, everything that exists is either a substance or a mode (E1a1). A substance is something that needs nothing else in order to exist or be conceived. Substances are independent entities both conceptually and ontologically (E1d3). A mode or property is something that needs a substance in order to exist, and cannot exist without a substance (E1d5). For example, being furry, orange, hungry, angry, etc. are modes that need a substance which is furry, orange, hungry, angry, etc. Hunger and patches of orange color cannot exist floating around on their own, but rather, hunger and patches of orange color need something (namely, a substance) to be hungry and have the orange color. Hunger and colors are, therefore, dependent entities or modes. According to almost all of Spinoza’s predecessors (including Aristotle and Descartes) there are lots of substances in the universe, each with their own modes or properties. For example, according to Descartes a cat is a substance which has the modes or properties of being furry, orange, soft, etc. (Though some have argued that Descartes cannot actually individuate multiple extended substances. See Curley 1988, 15-19; 141-2 n. 9.) Spinoza, however, rejects this traditional view and argues instead that there is only one substance, called “God” or “Nature.” Cats, dogs, people, rocks, etc. are not substances in Spinoza’s view, but rather, cats, dogs, people, rocks, etc. are just modes or properties of one substance. This one substance is simply people-like in places, rock-like in other places, chair-like in still other places, etc. One can think of substance as an infinite space. Some regions of this one space are hard and brown (rocks), other regions of space are green, juicy, and soft (plants), while still other regions are furry, orange, and soft (cats), etc. As a cat walks across the room all that happens in Spinoza’s view is that different regions of space become successively furry, orange, and soft (See Bennett 1984: 88-92 for more on space and the extended substance in Spinoza). This one substance has an infinite number of attributes. An attribute is simply an essence; a “what it is to be” that kind of thing. According to Descartes, every substance has only one attribute: bodies have only the attribute of extension, and minds have only the attribute of thought. Spinoza, however, argues against this claim that the one substance is absolutely infinite and so it must exist in every way that something can exist. Thus, he infers that the one substance must have an infinite number of attributes (E1p9). An attribute, according to Spinoza, is just the essence of substance under some way of conceiving or describing the substance (E1d4). When we consider substance one way, then we conceive of its essence as extension. When we consider substance another way, then we conceive of its essence as thought. (See Della Rocca 1996a: 164-167.) While substance has an infinite number of different attributes, Spinoza argues that human beings only know about two of them: extension and thought. Etc

Putting aside for now Kant’s criticism of Spinoza in the interest of grounding this discussion in something resembling logic I’m puzzled as to what connection there is between my ‘  . . . all concepts of God are equally meaningless . . . ‘ and the above which reminds me of Ayn Rand’s pithy description of most western philosophy as “Overtossed word salad"

You asked about the infinite. Spinoza explained it.

That Kant argued the limits of reason to be its qualities of dimension and causality is irrelevant to infinity. You can conceive infinity as Spinoza shows, whether dimension is outside of reason or is a built in furniture of it.

If a substance is not infinite then another substance is limiting it, which in turn is infinite or else similarly limited.

And so the legs of the elephants go ALL THE WAY DOWN, as the Hindus explain....

Frank wrote on Oct 14^th, 2021 at 12:44pm:

You asked about the infinnfinite. Spinoza explained it. That Kant argued the limits of reason to be its qualities of dimension and causality is irrelevant to infinity. You can conceive infinity as Spinoza shows, whether dimension is outside of reason or is a built in furniture of it. If a substance is not infinite then another substance is limiting it, which in turn is infinite or else similarly limited. And so the legs of the elephants go ALL THE WAY DOWN, as the Hindus explain....

Limiting? Care to define ‘limiting’ in that context?
I’m bored with overtossed word salad passing itself off as philosophy so depart this absurd dialogue you appear to believe has meaning.

Ayn Marx wrote on Oct 14^th, 2021 at 1:26pm:

Frank wrote on Oct 14th, 2021 at 12:44pm: You asked about the infinnfinite. Spinoza explained it. That Kant argued the limits of reason to be its qualities of dimension and causality is irrelevant to infinity. You can conceive infinity as Spinoza shows, whether dimension is outside of reason or is a built in furniture of it. If a substance is not infinite then another substance is limiting it, which in turn is infinite or else similarly limited. And so the legs of the elephants go ALL THE WAY DOWN, as the Hindus explain.... Limiting? Care to define ‘limiting’ in that context? I’m bored with overtossed word salad passing itself off as philosophy so depart this absurd dialogue you appear to believe has meaning.

Infinite is something that has no limit. Anything that has limit is limited by something else.
What has no limit, ie is not limited by something else?
God, as Spinoza explained. God is the only substance that has nothing outside it to limit it.
What is god? Spinoza used 'nature' (in the sense of 'all that is') interchangeably with 'god'.
God has infinite attributes, which are of two kinds: things and ideas.


It is very interesting and very intelligent - so you may well pass, or else it will pass you. But Einstein, for example, thought that Spinoza came closest to philosophy being actually true.
Spinoza was formally excommunicated by the Jews of Amsterdam and was shuned by every organised Christian Church.
He was called both an atheist and one brimming with god.

There is more to him than what I sketched here but this is the start.

Oh - and he wasn't gay so he's no use for justifying yourself.

This Topic was moved here from Atheism by freediver.