Check it out. 400MW solar plant with the ability to power 140,000 homes or the equivalent of taking 72,000 polluting cars off the road !! Makes you wonder why on earth aren't we building them here ?

Blame the dumbarse liberals who gave us junk copper internet :(


Quote:

Frank Sesno reports on the Ivanpah solar thermal plant, a 400 megawatt facility that uses mirrors to reflect sunlight onto energy towers instead of burning coal to make steam.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JHNPKue1lyo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TfMRuZW24MI

Oh, Ivanpah?

"On Wednesday, May 25, Ivanpah's operator, NRG energy, confirmed the fire was indeed caused by mirrors that did not track the sun properly, which focused sunlight onto the wrong part of the tower. NRG spokesperson David Knox estimates the plant would be back online within three weeks. *

https://www.wired.com/2016/05/huge-solar-plant-caught-fire-thats-least-problems/

3500 acres for 170000 homes. Just 48 homes to the acre. Care to extrapolate that to a larger number of homes?

And then of course there are the bird carcasses. Quick get Kentucky Fried in there.

Where are we on the list?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_solar_thermal_power_stations

Bobby. wrote on Jan 21^st, 2018 at 7:31pm:

Where are we on the list? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_solar_thermal_power_stations

Here  is a little snippet from 4 seconds on google...

That move followed the 2014 decision of French nuclear giant Areva, which acquired an Australian concentrated solar startup called Ausra in 2010, to exit the solar business after losing “tens of millions” of dollars. And the Spanish company Abengoa, which has developed several large concentrated solar projects and received $2.7 billion in loan guarantees from the U.S. Department of Energy, is in talks to restructure its debt and is in danger of becoming Spain’s largest-ever bankruptcy.


Walks like a duck sounds like a duck....

Read on Rider:

https://www.technologyreview.com/s/601083/ivanpahs-problems-could-signal-the-end-of-concentrated-solar-in-the-us/


At least that’s true in the United States. Executives at BrightSource and rival SolarReserve point out that a number of projects are moving forward in other countries that lack low-cost supplies of natural gas, particularly in the Middle East and Africa. China, which is plowing billions of yuan into clean energy schemes in order to reduce its dependency on coal, plans to build at least a gigawatt of concentrated solar capacity in the coming years, and could expand that to 10 gigawatts. Going forward, both companies also plan to add energy storage capacity, in the form of molten salt, that can enable new plants to continue producing electricity for as much as 10 hours when the sun's not shining.

For now, says SolarReserve CEO Kevin Smith, market conditions in the U.S. “have forced us overseas.” SolarReserve is developing a 100-megawatt in South Africa, known as Redstone. And BrightSource is building a 121-megawatt facility, featuring the world’s tallest solar tower collector, at Ashalim in Israel. “You need to look beneath the surface and beyond the U.S.,” says Joe Desmond, senior vice president of marketing at BrightSource.

Bobby. wrote on Jan 21^st, 2018 at 8:06pm:

Read on Rider: https://www.technologyreview.com/s/601083/ivanpahs-problems-could-signal-the-end-of-concentrated-solar-in-the-us/ At least that’s true in the United States. Executives at BrightSource and rival SolarReserve point out that a number of projects are moving forward in other countries that lack low-cost supplies of natural gas, particularly in the Middle East and Africa. China, which is plowing billions of yuan into clean energy schemes in order to reduce its dependency on coal, plans to build at least a gigawatt of concentrated solar capacity in the coming years, and could expand that to 10 gigawatts. Going forward, both companies also plan to add energy storage capacity, in the form of molten salt, that can enable new plants to continue producing electricity for as mu8ch as 10 hours when the sun's not shining. For now, says SolarReserve CEO Kevin Smith, market conditions in the U.S. “have forced us overseas.” SolarReserve is developing a 100-megawatt in South Africa, known as Redstone. And BrightSource is building a 121-megawatt facility, featuring the world’s tallest solar tower collector, at Ashalim in Israel. “You need to look beneath the surface and beyond the U.S.,” says Joe Desmond, senior vice president of marketing at BrightSource.

Cheap gas and beautiful cheap coal equals cheap power prices in the US therefore this hopelessly expesive problematic solution to a non problem is defective.

Ivanpah has 170000 plus individual garage door sized mirrors, each one is motorised, is controled by computer to move.....spread over 3500 acres......what could possibly go wrong lol.

Good solutions are simple and compact, not this sprawling mess of technical glitches all just waiting to happen. And dont mention the birds...or flamers as they are called by workers on site.

I suppose you'll apply for one of the newly created green jobs there? You know, reall high tech stuff, they'll provide you with the Windex and paper towells...yay the green revolution!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBePUPbsSTI


BrightSource
Published on Jan 24, 2014
The Ivanpah Solar Electric Generating System generates 377 MW of clean solar power, enough to power 140,000 California homes. This brief video provides some quick facts and images from this iconic infrastructure project.

Rider wrote on Jan 21^st, 2018 at 8:16pm:

plans to build at least a gigawatt of concentrated solar capacity in the coming years, and could expand that to 10 gigawatts.

Putting that in perspective. China's electricity consumption is 5,920,000 GW.

So 10GW is gunna be small in the overall scheme of things.

And that's only current consumption as at 2016.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_electricity_consumption

Bobby. wrote on Jan 21^st, 2018 at 8:22pm:

enough to power 140,000 California homes.

Ok I was wrong. Only 40 acres per home.

lee wrote on Jan 21^st, 2018 at 8:28pm:

Rider wrote on Jan 21st, 2018 at 8:16pm: plans to build at least a gigawatt of concentrated solar capacity in the coming years, and could expand that to 10 gigawatts. Putting that in perspective. China's electricity consumption is 5,920,000 GW. So 10GW is gunna be small in the overall scheme of things. And that's only current consumption as at 2016. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_electricity_consumption

Still - it's a start.
I don't think we're doing anything here.
There are too many deriders like Rider.
They can always point to something negative.

lee wrote on Jan 21^st, 2018 at 8:30pm:

Bobby. wrote on Jan 21st, 2018 at 8:22pm: enough to power 140,000 California homes. Ok I was wrong. Only 40 acres per home.

Yes - it seems a bit high compared with solar panels.

Homes = 140,000.
Area = 3,500 acres

140,000/3500 = 40 acres per home.

https://www.nrel.gov/csp/solarpaces/project_detail.cfm/projectID=62

I can see the two schools of thought on renewables.

1) Renewables are too expensive (factoring in the need for reliability.)

2) We have to have renewables at any cost.

At some time in the future the cost wont be an issue, everybody will be happy

Bobby. wrote on Jan 21^st, 2018 at 8:30pm:

lee wrote on Jan 21st, 2018 at 8:28pm: Rider wrote on Jan 21st, 2018 at 8:16pm: plans to build at least a gigawatt of concentrated solar capacity in the coming years, and could expand that to 10 gigawatts. Putting that in perspective. China's electricity consumption is 5,920,000 GW. So 10GW is gunna be small in the overall scheme of things. And that's only current consumption as at 2016. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_electricity_consumption Still - it's a start. I don't think we're doing anything here. There are too many deriders like Rider. They can always point to something negative.

no not with that lot in canberra. they are still working out how to keep on old cold fired power station going that's way past its use by date.

Sir lastnail wrote on Jan 21^st, 2018 at 7:10pm:

Check it out. 400MW solar plant with the ability to power 140,000 homes or the equivalent of taking 72,000 polluting cars off the road !! Makes you wonder why on earth aren't we building them here ? Blame the dumbarse liberals who gave us junk copper internet :( Quote: Frank Sesno reports on the Ivanpah solar thermal plant, a 400 megawatt facility that uses mirrors to reflect sunlight onto energy towers instead of burning coal to make steam. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JHNPKue1lyo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TfMRuZW24MI

They are insanely expensive and unreliable.

Next question?

Sir lastnail wrote on Jan 21^st, 2018 at 9:05pm:

no not with that lot in canberra. they are still working out how to keep on old cold fired power station going that's way past its use by date.

Is that because the uptake of renewables is too slow? If it were to close tomorrow, where would the reliable elctricity come from to replace it?

"Melbourne hospitals, including The Alfred, have enacted a 'Code Yellow' and switched off non-essential lights and equipment to conserve energy amid Friday's searing heat."

http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/melbourne-hospitals-on-code-yellow-as-heat-poses-power-risk-20180119-p4yynl.html

lee wrote on Jan 21^st, 2018 at 9:14pm:

Sir lastnail wrote on Jan 21st, 2018 at 9:05pm: no not with that lot in canberra. they are still working out how to keep on old cold fired power station going that's way past its use by date. Is that because the uptake of renewables is too slow? If it were to close tomorrow, where would the reliable elctricity come from to replace it? "Melbourne hospitals, including The Alfred, have enacted a 'Code Yellow' and switched off non-essential lights and equipment to conserve energy amid Friday's searing heat." http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/melbourne-hospitals-on-code-yellow-as-heat-poses-power-risk-20180119-p4yynl.html

But surely we can better in 2018 than burning lumps of coal?
It's so primitive -
it's something that was done 1000s of years ago.

lee wrote on Jan 21^st, 2018 at 9:14pm:

Sir lastnail wrote on Jan 21st, 2018 at 9:05pm: no not with that lot in canberra. they are still working out how to keep on old cold fired power station going that's way past its use by date. Is that because the uptake of renewables is too slow? If it were to close tomorrow, where would the reliable elctricity come from to replace it? "Melbourne hospitals, including The Alfred, have enacted a 'Code Yellow' and switched off non-essential lights and equipment to conserve energy amid Friday's searing heat." http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/melbourne-hospitals-on-code-yellow-as-heat-poses-power-risk-20180119-p4yynl.html

Why ? Solar energy produces maximum powered when it is most needed during the hottest part of the day. And I hear that dirty dan is looking at following the lead in Sth Australia with a Tesla backup battery.

And you conveniently left this out.


Quote:

"Hospitals within Alfred Health have strong back up and emergency power supply capacity and in the event of a power outage expect clinical services to continue without interruption."

Bobby. wrote on Jan 21^st, 2018 at 9:23pm:

lee wrote on Jan 21st, 2018 at 9:14pm: Sir lastnail wrote on Jan 21st, 2018 at 9:05pm: no not with that lot in canberra. they are still working out how to keep on old cold fired power station going that's way past its use by date. Is that because the uptake of renewables is too slow? If it were to close tomorrow, where would the reliable elctricity come from to replace it? "Melbourne hospitals, including The Alfred, have enacted a 'Code Yellow' and switched off non-essential lights and equipment to conserve energy amid Friday's searing heat." http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/melbourne-hospitals-on-code-yellow-as-heat-poses-power-risk-20180119-p4yynl.html But surely we can better in 2018 than burning lumps of coal? It's so primitive - it's something that was done 1000s of years ago.

the liberals will wreck the planet until there is nothing left to wreck. Denial and wrecking is in their dna :(

Sir lastnail wrote on Jan 21^st, 2018 at 9:29pm:

the liberals will wreck the planet until there is nothing left to wreck. Denial and wrecking is in their dna :(

Hi Nail,
I don't really understand it.
Labor introduced a carbon tax and I thought
the tax money was going to be spent on renewable energy -
like solar thermal power stations.

What happened?

Sir lastnail wrote on Jan 21^st, 2018 at 9:28pm:

Why ? Solar energy produces maximum powered when it is most needed during the hottest part of the day.

You do know that hospitals operate 24/7?  You do know that when people get home on hot days they turn ON the air-conditioner?


Sir lastnail wrote on Jan 21^st, 2018 at 9:28pm:

And you conveniently left this out. Quote: "Hospitals within Alfred Health have strong back up and emergency power supply capacity and in the event of a power outage expect clinical services to continue without interruption."

So they will continue clinical services? But not run air-conditioning which is not a clinical service?

Bobby. wrote on Jan 21^st, 2018 at 9:23pm:

But surely we can better in 2018 than burning lumps of coal? It's so primitive - it's something that was done 1000s of years ago.

Yes it is primitive. It was something done 1000 years ago.

But it is cheap, abundant and modern plants burn coal more efficiently, and sequestrate particulate matter well.

Now of course there is uranium, but that gets a lot of bad press.

Renewables don't cut it on energy density grounds.

But humans are nothing if not innovative. I believe a solutin will be found.

lee wrote on Jan 21^st, 2018 at 10:39pm:

Bobby. wrote on Jan 21st, 2018 at 9:23pm: But surely we can better in 2018 than burning lumps of coal? It's so primitive - it's something that was done 1000s of years ago. Yes it is primitive. It was something done 1000 years ago. But it is cheap, abundant and modern plants burn coal more efficiently, and sequestrate particulate matter well. Now of course there is uranium, but that gets a lot of bad press. Renewables don't cut it on energy density grounds. But humans are nothing if not innovative. I believe a solution will be found.

I hope Thorium power & fusion power will come online
within 10 years or so.

lee wrote on Jan 21^st, 2018 at 10:39pm:

Bobby. wrote on Jan 21st, 2018 at 9:23pm: But surely we can better in 2018 than burning lumps of coal? It's so primitive - it's something that was done 1000s of years ago. Yes it is primitive. It was something done 1000 years ago. But it is cheap, abundant and modern plants burn coal more efficiently, and sequestrate particulate matter well. Now of course there is uranium, but that gets a lot of bad press. Renewables don't cut it on energy density grounds. But humans are nothing if not innovative. I believe a solutin will be found.

asbestos is cheap but it is harmful. Same with coal !

you conservatives love a centralized energy system and there is plenty of abundant arid land for renewable installations in australia so what is the problem about energy density then ? There is no problem. The only problem is that sh.t in canberra hanging onto a 16th century mindset :(

lee wrote on Jan 21^st, 2018 at 10:09pm:

Sir lastnail wrote on Jan 21st, 2018 at 9:28pm: Why ? Solar energy produces maximum powered when it is most needed during the hottest part of the day. You do know that hospitals operate 24/7?  You do know that when people get home on hot days they turn ON the air-conditioner? Sir lastnail wrote on Jan 21st, 2018 at 9:28pm: And you conveniently left this out. Quote: "Hospitals within Alfred Health have strong back up and emergency power supply capacity and in the event of a power outage expect clinical services to continue without interruption." So they will continue clinical services? But not run air-conditioning which is not a clinical service?

they can deck out their basement with some Tesla batteries and get rid of those crappy deisel generators. The batteries can be trickle charged from green energy from the grid ready to go at an instance. No problems about blackouts for them ;)

Quote:

Ivanpah solar plant, built to limit greenhouse gases, is burning more natural gas The behemoth Ivanpah solar power plant built with federal subsidies to combat climate change is using increasing amounts of natural gas, a greenhouse-gas-emitting fuel, state and federal data show. The most recent numbers from the California Air Resources Board show that in 2015, the plant’s second year of operation, carbon emissions from Ivanpah’s gas use jumped by 48.4 percent to 68,676 metric tons. That’s more than twice the pollution threshold for power plants or factories in California to be required to participate in the state’s cap-and-trade program to reduce carbon emissions. Carbon emissions data for 2016 won’t be available until the end of this year, but data made public by the U.S. Energy Information Administration show that natural gas consumption at the plant increased by about 7 percent during the first three quarters of 2016 when compared to the same period in 2015. https://www.pe.com/2017/01/23/ivanpah-solar-plant-built-to-limit-greenhouse-gases-is-burning-more-natural-gas/

Ivanpah burns a shitload of gas to produce this power.

Sir lastnail wrote on Jan 22^nd, 2018 at 9:13am:

asbestos is cheap but it is harmful. Same with coal !

So if coal is so harmful perhaps we should get rid of it; in controlled circumstances of course. ;)


Sir lastnail wrote on Jan 22^nd, 2018 at 9:13am:

you conservatives love a centralized energy system

No I love a decentralised system, where a fault on on component doesn't affect the whole grid.


Sir lastnail wrote on Jan 22^nd, 2018 at 9:13am:

there is plenty of abundant arid land for renewable installations in australia so what is the problem about energy density then ?

You have heard of transmission losses?

Sir lastnail wrote on Jan 22^nd, 2018 at 9:56am:

hey can deck out their basement with some Tesla batteries and get rid of those crappy deisel generators. The batteries can be trickle charged from green energy from the grid ready to go at an instance. No problems about blackouts for them

Just how big do you think the air-conditioners are? Just how big the basement?

lee wrote on Jan 22^nd, 2018 at 10:54am:

Sir lastnail wrote on Jan 22nd, 2018 at 9:13am: asbestos is cheap but it is harmful. Same with coal ! So if coal is so harmful perhaps we should get rid of it; in controlled circumstances of course. ;) Sir lastnail wrote on Jan 22nd, 2018 at 9:13am: you conservatives love a centralized energy system No I love a decentralised system, where a fault on on component doesn't affect the whole grid. Sir lastnail wrote on Jan 22nd, 2018 at 9:13am: there is plenty of abundant arid land for renewable installations in australia so what is the problem about energy density then ? You have heard of transmission losses?

What about putting solar panels on the wasted land below transmission lines?

Bobby. wrote on Jan 22^nd, 2018 at 11:43am:

What about putting solar panels on the wasted land below transmission lines?

And then convert it to 66Kv or something and then feed in?

lee wrote on Jan 22^nd, 2018 at 1:56pm:

Bobby. wrote on Jan 22nd, 2018 at 11:43am: What about putting solar panels on the wasted land below transmission lines? And then convert it to 66Kv or something and then feed in?

Yes.

Bobby. wrote on Jan 22^nd, 2018 at 2:32pm:

lee wrote on Jan 22nd, 2018 at 1:56pm: Bobby. wrote on Jan 22nd, 2018 at 11:43am: What about putting solar panels on the wasted land below transmission lines? And then convert it to 66Kv or something and then feed in? Yes.

So the conversion would be DC-AC,  AC to 3phase with phase matching. That is not a small task.

The footprint would be 15--20M wide for however long.

For one acre it would be approximately 20M x 50M for 1/4 acre 4. So 200M long for 1acre.

And you wouldn't be able to use molten salt that close to the power lines.

I don't see it as feasible.

lee wrote on Jan 22^nd, 2018 at 2:43pm:

Bobby. wrote on Jan 22nd, 2018 at 2:32pm: lee wrote on Jan 22nd, 2018 at 1:56pm: Bobby. wrote on Jan 22nd, 2018 at 11:43am: What about putting solar panels on the wasted land below transmission lines? And then convert it to 66Kv or something and then feed in? Yes. So the conversion would be DC-AC,  AC to 3phase with phase matching. That is not a small task. The footprint would be 15--20M wide for however long. For one acre it would be approximately 20M x 50M for 1/4 acre 4. So 200M long for 1acre. And you wouldn't be able to use molten salt that close to the power lines. I don't see it as feasible.

no alternatives are ever feasible for you libbos except digging up more coal.

lee wrote on Jan 22^nd, 2018 at 2:43pm:

Bobby. wrote on Jan 22nd, 2018 at 2:32pm: lee wrote on Jan 22nd, 2018 at 1:56pm: Bobby. wrote on Jan 22nd, 2018 at 11:43am: What about putting solar panels on the wasted land below transmission lines? And then convert it to 66Kv or something and then feed in? Yes. So the conversion would be DC-AC,  AC to 3phase with phase matching. That is not a small task. The footprint would be 15--20M wide for however long. For one acre it would be approximately 20M x 50M for 1/4 acre 4. So 200M long for 1acre. And you wouldn't be able to use molten salt that close to the power lines. I don't see it as feasible.

I was talking about solar panels,
a DC to AC 3 phase convertor & a step up transformer.

Bobby. wrote on Jan 22^nd, 2018 at 6:02pm:

lee wrote on Jan 22nd, 2018 at 2:43pm: Bobby. wrote on Jan 22nd, 2018 at 2:32pm: lee wrote on Jan 22nd, 2018 at 1:56pm: Bobby. wrote on Jan 22nd, 2018 at 11:43am: What about putting solar panels on the wasted land below transmission lines? And then convert it to 66Kv or something and then feed in? Yes. So the conversion would be DC-AC,  AC to 3phase with phase matching. That is not a small task. The footprint would be 15--20M wide for however long. For one acre it would be approximately 20M x 50M for 1/4 acre 4. So 200M long for 1acre. And you wouldn't be able to use molten salt that close to the power lines. I don't see it as feasible. I was talking about solar panels, a DC to AC 3 phase convertor & a step up transformer.

Along thousands of kilometres of transmission line?

Bobby. wrote on Jan 22^nd, 2018 at 6:02pm:

was talking about solar panels, a DC to AC 3 phase convertor & a step up transformer.

And phase matching matching.

How many panels/acre considering molten salt can focus the array. That would seem more energy dense than standard solar panels.

lee wrote on Jan 22^nd, 2018 at 6:25pm:

Bobby. wrote on Jan 22nd, 2018 at 6:02pm: was talking about solar panels, a DC to AC 3 phase convertor & a step up transformer. And phase matching matching. How many panels/acre considering molten salt can focus the array. That would seem more energy dense than standard solar panels.

Solar panels - just like the ones on peoples roofs.

No molten salt.

BigOl64 wrote on Jan 22^nd, 2018 at 6:24pm:

Bobby. wrote on Jan 22nd, 2018 at 6:02pm: lee wrote on Jan 22nd, 2018 at 2:43pm: Bobby. wrote on Jan 22nd, 2018 at 2:32pm: lee wrote on Jan 22nd, 2018 at 1:56pm: Bobby. wrote on Jan 22nd, 2018 at 11:43am: What about putting solar panels on the wasted land below transmission lines? And then convert it to 66Kv or something and then feed in? Yes. So the conversion would be DC-AC,  AC to 3phase with phase matching. That is not a small task. The footprint would be 15--20M wide for however long. For one acre it would be approximately 20M x 50M for 1/4 acre 4. So 200M long for 1acre. And you wouldn't be able to use molten salt that close to the power lines. I don't see it as feasible. I was talking about solar panels, a DC to AC 3 phase convertor & a step up transformer. Along thousands of kilometres of transmission line?

That would be nice but we could start with a small scale version say 10 km long.

Bobby. wrote on Jan 21^st, 2018 at 8:30pm:

lee wrote on Jan 21st, 2018 at 8:28pm: Rider wrote on Jan 21st, 2018 at 8:16pm: plans to build at least a gigawatt of concentrated solar capacity in the coming years, and could expand that to 10 gigawatts. Putting that in perspective. China's electricity consumption is 5,920,000 GW. So 10GW is gunna be small in the overall scheme of things. And that's only current consumption as at 2016. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_electricity_consumption Still - it's a start. I don't think we're doing anything here. There are too many deriders like Rider. They can always point to something negative.

Yeah....pointing out it is inefficient, hideously expensive, unreliable, prone to failure, wii have massive maintenance issues, oh, and just doesn't work.

But lets all sip on the kool aid and spend my kids, and their kids taxes, before they even pay them on these monuments to blithering fools.

Bobby. wrote on Jan 22^nd, 2018 at 6:26pm:

lee wrote on Jan 22nd, 2018 at 6:25pm: Bobby. wrote on Jan 22nd, 2018 at 6:02pm: was talking about solar panels, a DC to AC 3 phase convertor & a step up transformer. And phase matching matching. How many panels/acre considering molten salt can focus the array. That would seem more energy dense than standard solar panels. Solar panels - just like the ones on peoples roofs. No molten salt.

ok

"Ivanpah has 173,500 garage door-sized sets of mirrors spread over 3,500 acres"

https://www.wired.com/2016/05/huge-solar-plant-caught-fire-thats-least-problems/

Say 3m x 2M. 6 across at 3M under 20m transnission line
5000 panels along 10Km, with no walk room for maintenance.
30000 panels.

20m x 10KM is 200,000 sq metres or 50 acres.

Now if the energy density was as much as from molten salt we  could power 50 acres x 40 per acre = 2000 homes.

lee wrote on Jan 22^nd, 2018 at 6:48pm:

Bobby. wrote on Jan 22nd, 2018 at 6:26pm: lee wrote on Jan 22nd, 2018 at 6:25pm: Bobby. wrote on Jan 22nd, 2018 at 6:02pm: was talking about solar panels, a DC to AC 3 phase convertor & a step up transformer. And phase matching matching. How many panels/acre considering molten salt can focus the array. That would seem more energy dense than standard solar panels. Solar panels - just like the ones on peoples roofs. No molten salt. ok "Ivanpah has 173,500 garage door-sized sets of mirrors spread over 3,500 acres" https://www.wired.com/2016/05/huge-solar-plant-caught-fire-thats-least-problems/ Say 3m x 2M. 6 across at 3M under 20m transnission line 5000 panels along 10Km, with no walk room for maintenance. 15000 panels. 20m x 10KM is 200,000 sq metres or 50 acres. Now if the energy density was as much as from molten salt we  could power 50 acres x 40 per acre = 2000 homes.

We know that the Ivanpah has a poor area to energy ratio -

that's why I suggested ordinary solar panels.

Bobby. wrote on Jan 22^nd, 2018 at 6:50pm:

We know that the Ivanpah has a poor area to energy ratio - that's why I suggested ordinary solar panels.

Perhaps you could run some figures.

lee wrote on Jan 22^nd, 2018 at 6:55pm:

Bobby. wrote on Jan 22nd, 2018 at 6:50pm: We know that the Ivanpah has a poor area to energy ratio - that's why I suggested ordinary solar panels. Perhaps you could run some figures.

Just off the top of my head -
a large solar panel array on your roof can run a powerful aircon.

"The process of building the solar panels themselves starts with glass sheets 2.2 by 2.6 meters in area and only 3.2 millimeters thick. "

"Because of their large area, the modules have among the highest power outputs in the industry–about 500 watts."

https://www.technologyreview.com/s/417620/scaling-up-solar-power/

So 2.6 say 7 across the 20m. 4500 for the 10km length. 31,500 panels in total. 500w each. About 15.5MW. Average household consumption seems to be about 6,000KW.

https://www.mountalexander.vic.gov.au/files/Environment/What_is_a_Typical_Energy_Consumption_Presentation.pdf

So about 2600 homes.

lee wrote on Jan 22^nd, 2018 at 7:27pm:

"The process of building the solar panels themselves starts with glass sheets 2.2 by 2.6 meters in area and only 3.2 millimeters thick. " "Because of their large area, the modules have among the highest power outputs in the industry–about 500 watts." https://www.technologyreview.com/s/417620/scaling-up-solar-power/ So 2.6 say 7 across the 20m. 4500 for the 10km length. 31,500 panels in total. 500w each. About 15.5MW. Average household consumption seems to be about 6,000KW. https://www.mountalexander.vic.gov.au/files/Environment/What_is_a_Typical_Energy_Consumption_Presentation.pdf So about 2600 homes.

Sounds good so why haven't ordinary solar panels been placed
on wasted land underneath transmission lines?

Bobby. wrote on Jan 22^nd, 2018 at 6:57pm:

lee wrote on Jan 22nd, 2018 at 6:55pm: Bobby. wrote on Jan 22nd, 2018 at 6:50pm: We know that the Ivanpah has a poor area to energy ratio - that's why I suggested ordinary solar panels. Perhaps you could run some figures. Just off the top of my head - a large solar panel array on your roof can run a powerful aircon.

What do you call powerful aircon, you need at least a 5KW aircon maybe bigger to do the average house that's a lot of solar panels which only work when the sun in shining.

We should go nuclear we can put reactors where nobody goes, we are not prone to earthquakes no tidal waves to worry about inland.We also have large reserves of Uranium which is already radioactive before it's mined.

Nuclear runs flat out for fuel cycle so we not only get good baseload we can have cheaper off peak electricity due to the fact they need people to use it in off peak times.

Baronvonrort wrote on Jan 22^nd, 2018 at 7:40pm:

Bobby. wrote on Jan 22nd, 2018 at 6:57pm: lee wrote on Jan 22nd, 2018 at 6:55pm: Bobby. wrote on Jan 22nd, 2018 at 6:50pm: We know that the Ivanpah has a poor area to energy ratio - that's why I suggested ordinary solar panels. Perhaps you could run some figures. Just off the top of my head - a large solar panel array on your roof can run a powerful aircon. What do you call powerful aircon, you need at least a 5KW aircon maybe bigger to do the average house that's a lot of solar panels which only work when the sun in shining. We should go nuclear we can put reactors where nobody goes, we are not prone to earthquakes no tidal waves to worry about inland.We also have large reserves of Uranium which is already radioactive before it's mined. Nuclear runs flat out for fuel cycle so we not only get good baseload we can have cheaper off peak electricity due to the fact they need people to use it in off peak times.

I large air con would draw 10 amps on a single phase so it
would be a 2.4 KW aircon and
with thermal efficiencies be the equivalent of 8KW.

Bobby. wrote on Jan 22^nd, 2018 at 7:36pm:

Sounds good so why haven't ordinary solar panels been placed on wasted land underneath transmission lines?

Probably because it is generally Crown Land and they wouldn't want to lease it from the Government.

The shadow from the transmission lines will cross some of the panels at some time of the day, which would impact to total power available.

Bobby. wrote on Jan 22^nd, 2018 at 7:36pm:

lee wrote on Jan 22nd, 2018 at 7:27pm: "The process of building the solar panels themselves starts with glass sheets 2.2 by 2.6 meters in area and only 3.2 millimeters thick. " "Because of their large area, the modules have among the highest power outputs in the industry–about 500 watts." https://www.technologyreview.com/s/417620/scaling-up-solar-power/ So 2.6 say 7 across the 20m. 4500 for the 10km length. 31,500 panels in total. 500w each. About 15.5MW. Average household consumption seems to be about 6,000KW. https://www.mountalexander.vic.gov.au/files/Environment/What_is_a_Typical_Energy_Consumption_Presentation.pdf So about 2600 homes. Sounds good so why haven't ordinary solar panels been placed on wasted land underneath transmission lines?

There was an idea floated once to put vertical wind turbines within the transmission towers but I haven't see any practical implementations yet.

lee wrote on Jan 22^nd, 2018 at 7:49pm:

Bobby. wrote on Jan 22nd, 2018 at 7:36pm: Sounds good so why haven't ordinary solar panels been placed on wasted land underneath transmission lines? Probably because it is generally Crown Land and they wouldn't want to lease it from the Government. The shadow from the transmission lines will cross some of the panels at some time of the day, which would impact to total power available.

The loss of power would be small from skinny wires casting a shadow.

If it's crown land then it's our land so it should be leased for free.

Bobby. wrote on Jan 22^nd, 2018 at 7:48pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on Jan 22nd, 2018 at 7:40pm: Bobby. wrote on Jan 22nd, 2018 at 6:57pm: lee wrote on Jan 22nd, 2018 at 6:55pm: Bobby. wrote on Jan 22nd, 2018 at 6:50pm: We know that the Ivanpah has a poor area to energy ratio - that's why I suggested ordinary solar panels. Perhaps you could run some figures. Just off the top of my head - a large solar panel array on your roof can run a powerful aircon. What do you call powerful aircon, you need at least a 5KW aircon maybe bigger to do the average house that's a lot of solar panels which only work when the sun in shining. We should go nuclear we can put reactors where nobody goes, we are not prone to earthquakes no tidal waves to worry about inland.We also have large reserves of Uranium which is already radioactive before it's mined. Nuclear runs flat out for fuel cycle so we not only get good baseload we can have cheaper off peak electricity due to the fact they need people to use it in off peak times. I large air con would draw 10 amps on a single phase so it would be a 2.4 KW aircon and with thermal efficiencies be the equivalent of 8KW.

Those who work aren't home to make use of solar powered air con, what do you power it with on warmer nights?

Don't tell me to make Elon Musk richer by buying his battery.

Baronvonrort wrote on Jan 22^nd, 2018 at 7:55pm:

Those who work aren't home to make use of solar powered air con, what do you power it with on warmer nights? Don't tell me to make Elon Musk richer by buying his battery.

Solar panels don't work at night - we know that but at least
the heavy load on the grid during the day could be eased.

I think we've already saved having to build many coal fired power stations
because of all the roof solar panels. :)

Bobby. wrote on Jan 22^nd, 2018 at 7:52pm:

lee wrote on Jan 22nd, 2018 at 7:49pm: Bobby. wrote on Jan 22nd, 2018 at 7:36pm: Sounds good so why haven't ordinary solar panels been placed on wasted land underneath transmission lines? Probably because it is generally Crown Land and they wouldn't want to lease it from the Government. The shadow from the transmission lines will cross some of the panels at some time of the day, which would impact to total power available. The loss of power would be small from skinny wires casting a shadow. If it's crown land then it's our land so it should be leased for free.

On my yacht the wires that hold the mast up reduce output of panel significantly if they shade part of it.

There are transmission losses and also losses when converting it from DC to AC, much better to put panels on house and unit roofs or even one of these in driveway if it faces North.

http://nebula.wsimg.com/564c61000a4be1ce89aadac8802a3abb?AccessKeyId=BDCBEC42725E6332DF96&disposition=0&alloworigin=1

Baronvonrort wrote on Jan 22^nd, 2018 at 7:55pm:

Those who work aren't home to make use of solar powered air con, what do you power it with on warmer nights? Don't tell me to make Elon Musk richer by buying his battery.

Yep why not. This is the future ;)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xI166Ps8DIo&t=18s

Baronvonrort wrote on Jan 22^nd, 2018 at 7:59pm:

Bobby. wrote on Jan 22nd, 2018 at 7:52pm: lee wrote on Jan 22nd, 2018 at 7:49pm: Bobby. wrote on Jan 22nd, 2018 at 7:36pm: Sounds good so why haven't ordinary solar panels been placed on wasted land underneath transmission lines? Probably because it is generally Crown Land and they wouldn't want to lease it from the Government. The shadow from the transmission lines will cross some of the panels at some time of the day, which would impact to total power available. The loss of power would be small from skinny wires casting a shadow. If it's crown land then it's our land so it should be leased for free. On my yacht the wires that hold the mast up reduce output of panel significantly if they shade part of it. There are transmission losses and also losses when converting it from DC to AC, much better to put panels on house and unit roofs or even one of these in driveway if it faces North. http://nebula.wsimg.com/564c61000a4be1ce89aadac8802a3abb?AccessKeyId=BDCBEC42725E6332DF96&disposition=0&alloworigin=1

Your link doesn't work and you're getting side tracked
with unimportant issues.
The losses from solar panels not pointed directly at the sun are 100 times greater than the losses by the shadow from a skinny wire.

Sir lastnail wrote on Jan 22^nd, 2018 at 8:02pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on Jan 22nd, 2018 at 7:55pm: Those who work aren't home to make use of solar powered air con, what do you power it with on warmer nights? Don't tell me to make Elon Musk richer by buying his battery. Yep why not. This is the future ;) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xI166Ps8DIo&t=18s

How long do Lithium batteries last in phones and laptops?

What makes you think the Tesla batteries will last a long time?

Lithium batteries have a cycle life, around 2000 cycles, I have one of these on my yacht- http://www.enerdrive.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/B-TEC-2pp-A4-WEB-REV3.02.pdf

Bobby. wrote on Jan 22^nd, 2018 at 7:52pm:

The loss of power would be small from skinny wires casting a shadow.

66Kv powerline is not skinny.

Also if there is a powerline failure it will probably take out about half a row of panels between the poles.
Bobby. wrote on Jan 22^nd, 2018 at 7:52pm:

If it's crown land then it's our land so it should be leased for free.

Ah, Another gain for the power company. Add that to the embedded subsidies ;)

Edit: Another thing about building under power lines is the need for powerline workers safety.

What a good topic that Nail started here.

Notice Monk hasn't made a single contribution?

We need more topics like this in the environment section.

ahahahaha Bobby pretending to be interested in things other than his ice age fantasy.

I have given my opinion of large scale solar: crap idea.

lee wrote on Jan 22^nd, 2018 at 8:22pm:

Bobby. wrote on Jan 22nd, 2018 at 7:52pm: The loss of power would be small from skinny wires casting a shadow. 66Kv powerline is not skinny. Also if there is a powerline failure it will probably take out about half a row of panels between the poles. Bobby. wrote on Jan 22nd, 2018 at 7:52pm: If it's crown land then it's our land so it should be leased for free. Ah, Another gain for the power company. Add that to the embedded subsidies ;) Edit: Another thing about building under power lines is the need for powerline workers safety.

First of all we're not talking about power lines -
we're talking about those gigantic transmission lines.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/image/8261080-3x2-940x627.jpg


There is so much wasted land underneath those lines
and it's close to where people live.
Make the power from solar panels close to the customer
& reduce the transmission losses.

The land is not being used for anything right now
so why not lease it for free to any company prepared to install ordinary solar cells and
let them make a profitable business out of it - a viable business model.


http://www.abc.net.au/radionational/image/5406850-3x2-700x467.jpg

There is often farmland under the lines.

Bobby. wrote on Jan 23^rd, 2018 at 3:54pm:

lee wrote on Jan 22nd, 2018 at 8:22pm: Bobby. wrote on Jan 22nd, 2018 at 7:52pm: The loss of power would be small from skinny wires casting a shadow. 66Kv powerline is not skinny. Also if there is a powerline failure it will probably take out about half a row of panels between the poles. Bobby. wrote on Jan 22nd, 2018 at 7:52pm: If it's crown land then it's our land so it should be leased for free. Ah, Another gain for the power company. Add that to the embedded subsidies ;) Edit: Another thing about building under power lines is the need for powerline workers safety. First of all we're not talking about power lines - we're talking about those gigantic transmission lines. http://www.abc.net.au/news/image/8261080-3x2-940x627.jpg There is so much wasted land underneath those lines and it's close to where people live. Make the power from solar panels close to the customer & reduce the transmission losses. The land is not being used for anything right now so why not lease it for free to any company prepared to install ordinary solar cells and let them make a profitable business out of it - a viable business model. http://www.abc.net.au/radionational/image/5406850-3x2-700x467.jpg

Your premise 'wasted land' is false, rendering your complete discussion ridiculous.

Car parks, parks, nature reserves, grazing and farming land all habit land under transmission line. All of which provide greater economic and liveability returns to the citizens of this country.

What ever you have been consuming, please stop.

Jovial Monk wrote on Jan 23^rd, 2018 at 4:01pm:

There is often farmland under the lines.

See...even monk can see this.  And he's a dithering oldie.

You say the nicest things about me, Rider! 8-)

Bobby. wrote on Jan 23^rd, 2018 at 3:54pm:

First of all we're not talking about power lines - we're talking about those gigantic transmission lines.

Good. From the looks of the structure it is 500Kv not 66Kv.
A  much more dangerous place to work.

If just one of those lines come down there would be mayhem. If after a  solar panel install job it would smash them. If during a solar panel install job, there would be notices of regret to the workers households.

lee wrote on Jan 23^rd, 2018 at 4:16pm:

Bobby. wrote on Jan 23rd, 2018 at 3:54pm: First of all we're not talking about power lines - we're talking about those gigantic transmission lines. Good. From the looks of the structure it is 500Kv not 66Kv. A  much more dangerous place to work. If just one of those lines come down there would be mayhem. If after a  solar panel install job it would smash them. If during a solar panel install job, there would be notices of regret to the workers households.

It's a viable business model.
Your argument is the same as

we should never fix the roads because
a road worker could get run over by a car.

Bobby. wrote on Jan 23^rd, 2018 at 5:34pm:

It's a viable business model. Your argument is the same as we should never fix the roads because a road worker could get run over by a car.

Hmm. Roadworkers, hivis vests, stop/go signs, run one down your in the manure.

High tension line breaks, who to blame? God? The person who allowed working under the high tension lines? Big Government/Big compensation.

lee wrote on Jan 23^rd, 2018 at 6:25pm:

Bobby. wrote on Jan 23rd, 2018 at 5:34pm: It's a viable business model. Your argument is the same as we should never fix the roads because a road worker could get run over by a car. Hmm. Roadworkers, hivis vests, stop/go signs, run one down your in the manure. High tension line breaks, who to blame? God? The person who allowed working under the high tension lines? Big Government/Big compensation.

dear Lee,
your argument is very weak - can you see that?

Bobby. wrote on Jan 23^rd, 2018 at 6:30pm:

dear Lee, your argument is very weak - can you see that?

Simple assess the risk.

I'll let you underwrite the risk.

lee wrote on Jan 23^rd, 2018 at 7:46pm:

Bobby. wrote on Jan 23rd, 2018 at 6:30pm: dear Lee, your argument is very weak - can you see that? Simple assess the risk. I'll let you underwrite the risk.

If your argument was strong then no one would be able to work underneath the transmission lines.
How do they mow the grass?
How do they maintain the towers & lines?

Bobby. wrote on Jan 23^rd, 2018 at 7:49pm:

If your argument was strong then no one would be able to work underneath the transmission lines. How do they mow the grass?

Either very quickly or with chemicals, i presume.


Bobby. wrote on Jan 23^rd, 2018 at 7:49pm:

How do they maintain the towers & lines?

With very specialised gear. Plus generally they close that section of line.

"Traditionally, the transmission line would have been de-energized, grounded, and either a line worker would have utilized a spacer cart to move out on the line to replace the spacer, or the line would have been lowered and the spacer replaced and the conductor strengthened."

http://electrical-engineering-portal.com/guidelines-for-the-construction-and-maintenance-of-transmission-lines

I am not sure how long it would take to completely install 200m (approx span width) of panels. Concrete footings, panel frames, wiring. Rinse and repeat for your 10kms.

I doubt they would close the section of the transmission line for weeks.

lee wrote on Jan 23^rd, 2018 at 8:22pm:

Bobby. wrote on Jan 23rd, 2018 at 7:49pm: If your argument was strong then no one would be able to work underneath the transmission lines. How do they mow the grass? Either very quickly or with chemicals, i presume. Bobby. wrote on Jan 23rd, 2018 at 7:49pm: How do they maintain the towers & lines? With very specialised gear. Plus generally they close that section of line. "Traditionally, the transmission line would have been de-energized, grounded, and either a line worker would have utilized a spacer cart to move out on the line to replace the spacer, or the line would have been lowered and the spacer replaced and the conductor strengthened." http://electrical-engineering-portal.com/guidelines-for-the-construction-and-maintenance-of-transmission-lines I am not sure how long it would take to completely install 200m (approx span width) of panels. Concrete footings, panel frames, wiring. Rinse and repeat for your 10kms. I doubt they would close the section of the transmission line for weeks.

Your argument is still weak.

The largest problem would be to connect the step up transformer
to the high voltage lines but
that is all in a days work for the experts.

There must be 1000s of kilometers of wasted land underneath
high voltage transmission lines.

Bobby. wrote on Jan 24^th, 2018 at 8:03am:

The largest problem would be to connect the step up transformer to the high voltage lines but that is all in a days work for the experts.

I would have thought that getting the phases right between the two sources would have been the hardest.

You do know connection is only one part. I saw you skipped over completely the actual placement of the panels under the wires.

But, if you have any evidence to back up you assertions, go to it.

Dos your, apparently stronger, argument include facts?

But anyway look at this -
http://www.eirgridgroup.com/site-files/library/EirGrid/Solar-Farm-Clearances-Report-Rev-A.PDF

But you would expect it to have been done somewhere if feasible.

lee wrote on Jan 24^th, 2018 at 11:15am:

Bobby. wrote on Jan 24th, 2018 at 8:03am: The largest problem would be to connect the step up transformer to the high voltage lines but that is all in a days work for the experts. I would have thought that getting the phases right between the two sources would have been the hardest. You do know connection is only one part. I saw you skipped over completely the actual placement of the panels under the wires. But, if you have any evidence to back up you assertions, go to it. Dos your, apparently stronger, argument include facts? But anyway look at this - http://www.eirgridgroup.com/site-files/library/EirGrid/Solar-Farm-Clearances-Report-Rev-A.PDF But you would expect it to have been done somewhere if feasible.

Your link is not loading.

What did you expect from me? -
a 2000 page feasability study?

All I'm saying is that we have wasted land under and near high voltage transmission lines - let's use it.

Bobby. wrote on Jan 24^th, 2018 at 2:44pm:

Your link is not loading.

It works for me.


Bobby. wrote on Jan 24^th, 2018 at 2:44pm:

What did you expect from me? - a 2000 page feasability study?

Nope.


Bobby. wrote on Jan 24^th, 2018 at 2:44pm:

All I'm saying is that we have wasted land under and near high voltage transmission lines - let's use it.

First you have to show it is wasted. That is it is suitable for a purpose. Better if it is suitable for the purpose you propose.

I googled "solar farms under transmission lines". i got no hits for it being done. I got hits from people like minded as yourself; so it has been thought of.

lee wrote on Jan 24^th, 2018 at 3:09pm:

Bobby. wrote on Jan 24th, 2018 at 2:44pm: Your link is not loading. It works for me. Bobby. wrote on Jan 24th, 2018 at 2:44pm: What did you expect from me? - a 2000 page feasability study? Nope. Bobby. wrote on Jan 24th, 2018 at 2:44pm: All I'm saying is that we have wasted land under and near high voltage transmission lines - let's use it. First you have to show it is wasted. That is it is suitable for a purpose. Better if it is suitable for the purpose you propose. I googled "solar farms under transmission lines". i got no hits for it being done. I got hits from people like minded as yourself; so it has been thought of.

you lot don't want solar panels period !

Sir lastnail wrote on Jan 24^th, 2018 at 4:42pm:

lee wrote on Jan 24th, 2018 at 3:09pm: Bobby. wrote on Jan 24th, 2018 at 2:44pm: Your link is not loading. It works for me. Bobby. wrote on Jan 24th, 2018 at 2:44pm: What did you expect from me? - a 2000 page feasability study? Nope. Bobby. wrote on Jan 24th, 2018 at 2:44pm: All I'm saying is that we have wasted land under and near high voltage transmission lines - let's use it. First you have to show it is wasted. That is it is suitable for a purpose. Better if it is suitable for the purpose you propose. I googled "solar farms under transmission lines". i got no hits for it being done. I got hits from people like minded as yourself; so it has been thought of. you lot don't want solar panels period !

Thank you for your in-depth thoughts.
I hope it wasn't too much a strain. ;)