Hey Gandalf since you are the self proclaimed authority here how about you supply some verses from the Koran on the subject eh?

Grendel wrote on Feb 19^th, 2017 at 3:39pm:

Hey Gandalf since you are the self proclaimed authority here how about you supply some verses from the Koran on the subject eh?

Where did he self proclaim that Grendel?  Are you lying about him there?  Making things up like you eternally complain others do about you and what you post?  Huh?

I could also add (as you often do) ~ do you own research, Grendel ~ but I won't.

Aussie wrote on Feb 19^th, 2017 at 3:46pm:

Where did he self proclaim that Grendel?

Seconded - where did I proclaim that grendel?

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 19^th, 2017 at 5:17pm:

Aussie wrote on Feb 19th, 2017 at 3:46pm: Where did he self proclaim that Grendel? Seconded - where did I proclaim that grendel?

Oh I've read stuff in the past and apparently that's the impression you give just about everyone Gandalf...  bwian tries but he's a big failure.  No...  your the source buddy, so I've come to you.
So don't be shy don't run away and don't make any excuses.

I'm ready to be educated.

Oh and Aussie....  I have 2 words for you the 2nd one is off...  go troll someone else eh.

Or are you saying there is nothing about LOVE in the Koran?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6GvIYGcuJ80


A Golden Shower for the Koran,,, as close as I could find

Grendel wrote on Feb 19^th, 2017 at 6:06pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 19th, 2017 at 5:17pm: Aussie wrote on Feb 19th, 2017 at 3:46pm: Where did he self proclaim that Grendel? Seconded - where did I proclaim that grendel? Oh I've read stuff in the past and apparently that's the impression you give just about everyone Gandalf...  bwian tries but he's a big failure.  No...  your the source buddy, so I've come to you. So don't be shy don't run away and don't make any excuses. I'm ready to be educated. Oh and Aussie....  I have 2 words for you the 2nd one is off...  go troll someone else eh. Or are you saying there is nothing about LOVE in the Koran?

Oh....so now, it's an impression (one of yours of course) which is a far cry from self proclamation.

Eat your own crap, Grendel.  Apologise to Gandalf for that lie, and perhaps, he'll bother with you.  That's what you preciously demand of others when you reckon they have posted a lie about you, or what you have posted.

As for me and far cough....not a chance in Hell.  I'm on your case Dude, make no mistake about it.  I've had way more than a gutfull of your supercilious garbage, as is evidenced most recently in your OP here.  I'd be surprised if I am alone.

:)

The only time I have heard Gandalf talk about love and Islam was when he said Muhammed struck his favourite child bride because he loves her. The beating was an expression of that love. He was instructing her not to leave the house without his permission.

Thanks FD looks like the Muslims and their stooges are running a mile from this topic.

Why does Allah need 20% of all war booty?

quran.com/8/41

Grendel wrote on Feb 19^th, 2017 at 7:01pm:

Thanks FD looks like the Muslims and their stooges are running a mile from this topic.

To whom are you referring, Grendel?

Oh, dearie, dearie me.  Poor ol' Geoff...tsk, tsk.   ::)

Brian Ross wrote on Feb 19^th, 2017 at 11:08pm:

Oh, dearie, dearie me.  Poor ol' Geoff...tsk, tsk.   ::)

At least the deary me is a good change from the yawn, nothing like a good bivouac in the middle of a hostile war zone I always say, or in Pt Agudda.

Johnnie wrote on Feb 19^th, 2017 at 11:19pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Feb 19th, 2017 at 11:08pm: Oh, dearie, dearie me.  Poor ol' Geoff...tsk, tsk.   ::) At least the deary me is a good change from the yawn, nothing like a good bivouac in the middle of a hostile war zone I always say, or in Pt Agudda.

And of course, you'd know all about how to put up your hootchi, no wouldn't you?  Tsk, tsk.   ::)

Ease up on the tsk tsk.
Ceduna booze cards, any comment.

freediver wrote on Feb 19^th, 2017 at 6:25pm:

The only time I have heard Gandalf talk about love and Islam was when he said Muhammed struck his favourite child bride because he loves her. The beating was an expression of that love. He was instructing her not to leave the house without his permission.

Oh I remember that too.

Misogynism is something I never forget.

Oh yeah, this is the Mufti thread, not the old army days thread.

The gran moofti  must know everything about the Koran otherwise how can he be that guy, so lets get him front and centre and spill his guts on just what the rules are, hijab no hijab fmg no fmg, behead infidels or not, jihad or not, send kids to school in burkas,,,, Is a scholar equal to a mufti or a grand mufti, are these recognized Australian qualifications, can I get them through TAFE.

freediver wrote on Feb 19^th, 2017 at 6:25pm:

The only time I have heard Gandalf talk about love and Islam was when he said Muhammed struck his favourite child bride because he loves her. The beating was an expression of that love. He was instructing her not to leave the house without his permission.

Why don't you dig up that quote FD? Especially the last sentence.

Brian Ross wrote on Feb 19^th, 2017 at 11:55pm:

Johnnie wrote on Feb 19th, 2017 at 11:19pm: Brian Ross wrote on Feb 19th, 2017 at 11:08pm: Oh, dearie, dearie me.  Poor ol' Geoff...tsk, tsk.   ::) At least the deary me is a good change from the yawn, nothing like a good bivouac in the middle of a hostile war zone I always say, or in Pt Agudda. And of course, you'd know all about how to put up your hootchi, no wouldn't you?  Tsk, tsk.   ::)

I would...  and you need to pull your over inflated head in bwian and stop trolling me. :D :D :D :D :D

So Muslims....  here's your big chance....  funny there are no takers ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Grendel wrote on Feb 20^th, 2017 at 9:13am:

So Muslims....  here's your big chance....  funny there are no takers ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Here you go grendel -

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=love+in+the+quran

or do you need me to do that for you?

Thanks but a google search list does not fulfill my request or answer my question.
Perhaps you should try again and use your own Islamic knowledge.
I read a few listed but guess what....  they do not answer my question all they do is make it seem like LOVE is not covered by the Koran.

Oh and being narky is totally un-islamic isn't it?

For example....

http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Themes/love.htm


Quote:

One of the most compact, penetrating discourses on love is found in I John 4:7-21. The word is used 27 times in these verses. The central basis for men to love one another is rooted in the nature of God Himself. "God is love." What is accepted as commonplace in Christianity is a dim reflection in the Qur'an. While "God is great" [Allahu akbar] is a statement of faith, affirmation and expression, "God is love" [Allahu muhibba] is absent from the attributes of God. Such a profound contrast between the two religions, Islam and Christianity, demands an inquiry as to why. Since Christians are known as "the people of the book" referred to in the Qur'an, it is appropriate for us to look at the Muslim holy book to seek to discern those elements of God's character described therein. This article seeks to categorize and analyze the various Qur'anic verses that incorporate the word "love."

suggest you try other sources than the rabidly Islamophobic site answering-Islam. There are at least 4 or 5 Islamic sites just on the first page alone. I'm not going to hold your hand any more Grendel.

according to this site

Love in the quran:-               

The word 'LOVE'  appears about 45 times in the whole of the quran mostly in expressions such as ( in love; love of wealth; love of life; love of allah; love of woman; love of self; love of other believers or love in the abstract; 2:177; 3:31, 103, 119;5:54;  9:23; 19:96; 38:32 etc).


The quran, unlike the Bible does not encourage love of strangers or any others who are not 'believers in allah and his prophet'.


In the Bible on the other hand, this word is mentioned at least 155 times in all its forms and manifestations. In the form of loving the STRANGER (Lev.19:34; Deut10:19) & NEIGHBOUR (Lev.19:18), the quran is silent.


The ordinances on how well to treat the stranger and neighbour are over 150 times in the Bible while none are mentioned in the quran.

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 20^th, 2017 at 12:53pm:

suggest you try other sources than the rabidly Islamophobic site answering-Islam. There are at least 4 or 5 Islamic sites just on the first page alone. I'm not going to hold your hand any more Grendel.

hey you supplied the link...  I asked you to supply first hand up to date muslim knowledge...  Yet you for some reason don't want to or don't know or it doesn't exist... 
You've never held my hand... you avoid almost all questions... like a good Islamist you've only treated me like the enemy.  What a good little Muslim you are...  At least Catholics would have to pay penance. :D

Catholics would have to pay penance.


Unless they prepaid with indulgences


OK OK apparently that never happened, wink wink

Johnnie wrote on Feb 20^th, 2017 at 12:07am:

Ease up on the tsk tsk. Ceduna booze cards, any comment.

Oh, dearie, dearie me...  Take it to the appropriate thread, tsk, tsk.   ::) ::)

Grendel wrote on Feb 20^th, 2017 at 9:12am:

Brian Ross wrote on Feb 19th, 2017 at 11:55pm: Johnnie wrote on Feb 19th, 2017 at 11:19pm: Brian Ross wrote on Feb 19th, 2017 at 11:08pm: Oh, dearie, dearie me.  Poor ol' Geoff...tsk, tsk.   ::) At least the deary me is a good change from the yawn, nothing like a good bivouac in the middle of a hostile war zone I always say, or in Pt Agudda. And of course, you'd know all about how to put up your hootchi, no wouldn't you?  Tsk, tsk.   ::) I would...  and you need to pull your over inflated head in bwian and stop trolling me. :D :D :D :D :D

Oh, dearie, dearie me...  ::) ::)

Allah the most merciful of those who shows mercy mentions boiling water numerous times in the Quran for the purpose of torture, there is no verse saying boiling water makes it safe to drink which was unknown at that time.

[url]quran.com/search?q=boiling water[/url]

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 20^th, 2017 at 6:40am:

freediver wrote on Feb 19th, 2017 at 6:25pm: The only time I have heard Gandalf talk about love and Islam was when he said Muhammed struck his favourite child bride because he loves her. The beating was an expression of that love. He was instructing her not to leave the house without his permission. Why don't you dig up that quote FD? Especially the last sentence.

As I recall it was a rather lengthy conversation. I know how you hate quote bombs.

freediver wrote on Feb 22^nd, 2017 at 8:20am:

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 20th, 2017 at 6:40am: freediver wrote on Feb 19th, 2017 at 6:25pm: The only time I have heard Gandalf talk about love and Islam was when he said Muhammed struck his favourite child bride because he loves her. The beating was an expression of that love. He was instructing her not to leave the house without his permission. Why don't you dig up that quote FD? Especially the last sentence. As I recall it was a rather lengthy conversation. I know how you hate quote bombs.

I'll give you the executive summary: I didn't say that crap.

That's the precis Gandalf. Please do give us the executive summary. Which bits in particular are you denying?

Everything you accuse me of saying in this:


Quote:

The only time I have heard Gandalf talk about love and Islam was when he said Muhammed struck his favourite child bride because he loves her. The beating was an expression of that love. He was instructing her not to leave the house without his permission.

to be precise - 3 BS, fabricated claims.

Now run along and find the quote(s) if you want to defend this BS.

Still avoiding eh....

Grendel wrote on Feb 23^rd, 2017 at 12:03pm:

Still avoiding eh....

Who is avoiding whom, Geoff?  Tsk, tsk...   ::)

No problem Gandalf. Here are some quotes:


polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 30^th, 2013 at 1:52pm:

A single incident in which his wife was "pushed" by a husband who was in a state of panic over her wellbeing and safety, does not even remotely reflect such a pattern of behaviour.

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 28^th, 2013 at 11:10pm:

The story as I understand it, is that the prophet was in bed with Aisha when, in the middle of the night, he was summoned by the angel Gabriel to pray at someone's grave. So he snuck out so as to not disturb Aisha. However Aisha was awoken, and secretly followed him to see what he was doing. When he came back, he noticed someone entering the house and initially didn't know who it was (as he didn't know she was following him). When he figured out who it was, he was understandably in a state - both by the initial thoughts of an intruder, as well as the realisation that Aisha had been out in the middle of the night, alone - at great risk to her life. The shove was as if to say "what were you thinking? What if something happened to you??" etc

Have you ever struck a woman, causing her pain, as a way of asking her what she was thinking? What would you think of a man who did?

Edit: I retract my claim that Gandalf used love as a justification. Going by a search of this board, Gandalf loves, or would love, many things, but not in the context of Islam. From memory, Gandalf claimed the 50+ year old Muhammed married his neighbour's 6 year old daughter out of love and mutual respect, but I cannot find that one either.

Oh bwian....  where is my unreserved apology...

Here it is - Gandalf's only reference to love in the Koran:


polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 20^th, 2014 at 10:18am:

Muslims absolutely can and should condemn marriage to 9 year olds today. And doing so does not reject the Prophet's example, and here's why: the "example" of the Prophet in this case was to strictly hold off marriage and sexual relationships until both the bride and groom are biologically and emotionally mature enough to cope with it. Everything islam teaches us about marriage - mutual love and respect for each other and especially the emphasis on each party making their own free choices, is consistent with mental maturity being an essential prerequisite for marriage. That is all encapsulated in the 3 year wait Muhammad had before marrying his betrothed. In that time and place, that age of maturity, while obviously always fluid, was undeniably a lot lower than it is today.

The truth is the opposite - biological maturity is actually delayed relative to healthy people in situations like 7th century Arabia. Gandalf is reading an aweful lot into the 3 year withholding period, because there is nothing in the Koran about Aisha reaching physical or mental maturity, or any signs of puberty. Gandalf is yet to point out where Islam teaches about love in marriage. For a man who documented his moral superiority (and how to wipe your arse) in great detail as a guide for humanity to fail to mention the bit about waiting till there is grass on the wicket is stretching credibility, which is why most Muslims interpret it as no fixed limit.

Having sex with a 9 year old or a 12 year old is still having sex with a kid.

Didn't he just put it off till she reached puberty?  Reaching puberty does not mean one is mentally mature you know.

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 20^th, 2017 at 11:59am:

Grendel wrote on Feb 20th, 2017 at 9:13am: So Muslims....  here's your big chance....  funny there are no takers ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D Here you go grendel - http://lmgtfy.com/?q=love+in+the+quran or do you need me to do that for you?

Have you seen the results Gandalf?

It looks to me like Gandalf was projecting his pre-Islamic western values onto Islam. Except that in this case, when he realised that love has no place in Islam, he simply stopped talking about it rather than his usual approach of either reforming or reinterpreting Islam.

It is no coincidence that love has no place in Islam. Islam turns people into robots. A killing machine, a praying machine, a baby factory. You don't need science fiction for a robot army destroying the world. You just need to look at Muhammed's Caliphate sweeping away civilisation.

freediver wrote on Feb 23^rd, 2017 at 9:40pm:

Here it is - Gandalf's only reference to love in the Koran: polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 20th, 2014 at 10:18am: Muslims absolutely can and should condemn marriage to 9 year olds today. And doing so does not reject the Prophet's example, and here's why: the "example" of the Prophet in this case was to strictly hold off marriage and sexual relationships until both the bride and groom are biologically and emotionally mature enough to cope with it. Everything islam teaches us about marriage - mutual love and respect for each other and especially the emphasis on each party making their own free choices, is consistent with mental maturity being an essential prerequisite for marriage. That is all encapsulated in the 3 year wait Muhammad had before marrying his betrothed. In that time and place, that age of maturity, while obviously always fluid, was undeniably a lot lower than it is today. The truth is the opposite - biological maturity is actually delayed relative to healthy people in situations like 7th century Arabia. Gandalf is reading an aweful lot into the 3 year withholding period, because there is nothing in the Koran about Aisha reaching physical or mental maturity, or any signs of puberty. Gandalf is yet to point out where Islam teaches about love in marriage. For a man who documented his moral superiority (and how to wipe your arse) in great detail as a guide for humanity to fail to mention the bit about waiting till there is grass on the wicket is stretching credibility, which is why most Muslims interpret it as no fixed limit.

Hey, FD, tell G it's impossible for any Muslim to consent to marriage. Tell him about their genetic retardation levels.

We should be sterilising them instead, no?

Out of love, of course.

Karnal wrote on Feb 25^th, 2017 at 11:31am:

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 20th, 2014 at 10:18am: Muslims absolutely can and should condemn marriage to 9 year olds today. And doing so does not reject the Prophet's example, and here's why: the "example" of the Prophet in this case was to strictly hold off marriage and sexual relationships until both the bride and groom are biologically and emotionally mature enough to cope with it. Everything islam teaches us about marriage - mutual love and respect for each other and especially the emphasis on each party making their own free choices, is consistent with mental maturity being an essential prerequisite for marriage. That is all encapsulated in the 3 year wait Muhammad had before marrying his betrothed. In that time and place, that age of maturity, while obviously always fluid, was undeniably a lot lower than it is today. Hey, FD, tell G it's impossible for any Muslim to consent to marriage.

Google;
mohammed, silence is consent

As per the Hadith....

"Narrated Abu Huraira:
The Prophet said, "A matron should not be given in marriage except after consulting her; and a virgin should not be given in marriage except after her permission."
The people asked, "O Allah's Apostle! How can we know her permission?"
He said, "Her silence (indicates her permission)." "
hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #007.062.067



Of course we have many examples of outspoken moslem women being beaten or killed [i'm thinking of the many examples of 'honour' killings in the moslem community's of the UK and the US.].

And threatening and beating those 'who ask too many Q's' and complain has cultural 'traction' in every ISLAMIC society.

But ISLAM is the most feminist religion.

Honest!!


Yassmin Abdel-Magied, Islam is "THE most feminist religion"





'THERE'S MORE'  !!!

'Do not inquire, just accept.'       [the mantra of the devout moslem]



"O ye who believe! Ask not questions about things which, if made plain to you, may cause you trouble.....
Some people before you did ask such questions, and on that account lost their faith."
Koran 5.101, 102


"We sent not a messenger, but to be obeyed..........they ['believers'] can have no (real) Faith, until they make thee judge in all disputes between them, and find in their souls no resistance against Thy decisions, but accept them with the fullest conviction."
Koran 4.64, 65


"O ye who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the messenger [i.e. the clerics], and make not vain your deeds!"
Koran 47:33



And if any moslem rebels against the authority of Allah [i.e. Mohammed], SLAUGHTER THEM.

.....EVEN IF IT IS YOUR OWN CHILD.






marriage
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1338868086/4#4

Quote:

....ISLAMIC law specifically gives moslem men, the right to kill their children [and grandchildren]. [An ISLAMIC source is cited below], at the jihadwatch item. ISLAMIC sources declare that the killing of moslem children, by a parent, is 'lawful', within ISLAM... e.g. "British girl kidnapped by Saudi father: "I told [the police] he was keeping me there against my will and all they said was, 'He's your father, if he wants he can kill you'." Indeed, traditional Islamic law does not prescribe retaliation against a parent for killing his or her child. For example: "not subject to retaliation" is "a father or mother (or their fathers or mothers) for killing their offspring, or offspring's offspring." ('Umdat al-Salik o1.1-2)." " http://www.jihadwatch.org/2010/04/british-girl-kidnapped-by-saudi-father-i-told-the-police-he-was-keeping-me-there-against-my-will-and.html

p.s.
I apologise for going on, and on, and on, and on, and on.

It is just that there are so many connecting references which seem relevant.   !!!!!

:)

Quote:

I apologise for going on, and on, and on, and on, and on. It is just that there are so many connecting references which seem relevant.   !!!!!

I wouldn't worry about it Yadda.  I reckon no-one reads that crap anyway.

Aussie wrote on Feb 25^th, 2017 at 2:49pm:

Quote: I apologise for going on, and on, and on, and on, and on. It is just that there are so many connecting references which seem relevant.   !!!!! I wouldn't worry about it Yadda.  I reckon no-one reads that crap anyway.

Aussie,

You are just trying to discourage me.

FAIL!




Yadda said......
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1483601125/37#37

Quote:

I won't rest, until every moslem in Australia is living within a internment camp [until they can be removed from Australia]. Why so ? Moslems do not deserve, imo, to enjoy living in a nation like Australia, nor, to enjoy the human rights that are afforded to Australians. Why so ? Because the doctrines and tenets and laws of ISLAM, prohibit such rights, among men. e.g. The right to freedom of religion, is prohibited, by ISLAMIC law.

Quote:

Aussie, You are just trying to discourage me.

Not at all.  I meant what I said.  I reckon no-one reads that tripe you post.  I read it once or twice, or maybe more ~ and stopped because it was always the same tripe....always.

Aussie wrote on Feb 25^th, 2017 at 3:46pm:

Quote: Aussie, You are just trying to discourage me. Not at all.  I meant what I said.  I reckon no-one reads that tripe you post.  I read it once or twice, or maybe more ~ and stopped because it was always the same tripe....always.

Soooo Aussie still riding shotgun and sniping I see...  how about the occasional constructive on topic contribution eh?

Yadda posts more relevant sensible posts on this than you apparently ever will, even if he does come off looking a bit obsessed at times.

You?  Nada...

So a few koranic love verses eh, how about it?

Oh and Aussie if you actually did read Yadda's posts you'd know it is not "always the same tripe."

Is it true that Muhammed once tried to ban wife beating, but changed his mind because it was an unpopular ruling?

freediver wrote on Feb 28^th, 2017 at 9:54pm:

Is it true that Muhammed once tried to ban wife beating, but changed his mind because it was an unpopular ruling?

Hmmmm.  Tough question.  Who could we ask?  How about you Effendi.  Can you tell us?

Aussie wrote on Feb 28^th, 2017 at 9:59pm:

freediver wrote on Feb 28th, 2017 at 9:54pm: Is it true that Muhammed once tried to ban wife beating, but changed his mind because it was an unpopular ruling? Hmmmm.  Tough question.  Who could we ask?  How about you Effendi.  Can you tell us?

Let's ask G.

Hang on, he's a killjoy. Let's ask FD.

Scrap that. Who should we ask?

Sometimes a question is just a question. Let's just leave it at that.

freediver wrote on Feb 23^rd, 2017 at 9:40pm:

Gandalf is yet to point out where Islam teaches about love in marriage. For a man who documented his moral superiority (and how to wipe your arse) in great detail as a guide for humanity to fail to mention the bit about waiting till there is grass on the wicket is stretching credibility, which is why most Muslims interpret it as no fixed limit.

First of all Muhammad didn't document anything (he was illiterate remember?) - except to recite the Quran. Anything else attributed to the Prophet came from 200 years of undocumented chinese whispers.

Secondly, there absolutely is mention in the Quran about girls needing to be at the age of puberty before marriage. We've been over this before - go and dig up some more quotes.

Thirdly - the Quran on love and marriage:

30:21
And of His signs is that He created for you from yourselves mates that you may find tranquillity in them; and He placed between you love and mercy. Indeed in that are signs for a people who give thought.

2:187
They are a clothing (covering) for you and you too are a clothing (covering) for them.

Oh ok so love only ever exists between "mates"... ::)

Made any progress on that google search yet G?

Quote:

Secondly, there absolutely is mention in the Quran about girls needing to be at the age of puberty before marriage. We've been over this before - go and dig up some more quotes.

I can dig up several quotes where you argue that the fact that Muhammed waited three years proves that Aisha had gone through puberty, otherwise it would make Muhammed a pedophile, and Islam therefor bans pedophilia. If you could find a direct reference to puberty, why did you make such a tortuous argument? The only direct reference to puberty I am aware of is in the context of inheritance rights.


polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 2^nd, 2017 at 4:02pm:

freediver wrote on Feb 23rd, 2017 at 9:40pm: Gandalf is yet to point out where Islam teaches about love in marriage. For a man who documented his moral superiority (and how to wipe your arse) in great detail as a guide for humanity to fail to mention the bit about waiting till there is grass on the wicket is stretching credibility, which is why most Muslims interpret it as no fixed limit. First of all Muhammad didn't document anything (he was illiterate remember?) - except to recite the Quran. Anything else attributed to the Prophet came from 200 years of undocumented chinese whispers. Secondly, there absolutely is mention in the Quran about girls needing to be at the age of puberty before marriage. We've been over this before - go and dig up some more quotes. Thirdly - the Quran on love and marriage: 30:21 And of His signs is that He created for you from yourselves mates that you may find tranquillity in them; and He placed between you love and mercy. Indeed in that are signs for a people who give thought. 2:187 They are a clothing (covering) for you and you too are a clothing (covering) for them.

Is that all there is? One reference each to love, soggy miswaks, and a sheath for a penis?

Grendel wrote on Mar 2^nd, 2017 at 4:12pm:

Oh ok so love only ever exists between "mates"... ::)

I was specifically responding to FD's scepticism about the Quran saying anything about love in marriage.

Quote:

I can dig up several quotes where you argue that the fact that Muhammed waited three years proves that Aisha had gone through puberty,

I dunno one way or the other...but....seeing as you offered.....okay, dig 'em up and post the links, Effendi.

freediver wrote on Mar 2^nd, 2017 at 6:49pm:

Quote: Secondly, there absolutely is mention in the Quran about girls needing to be at the age of puberty before marriage. We've been over this before - go and dig up some more quotes. I can dig up several quotes where you argue that the fact that Muhammed waited three years proves that Aisha had gone through puberty, otherwise it would make Muhammed a pedophile, and Islam therefor bans pedophilia. If you could find a direct reference to puberty, why did you make such a tortuous argument? The only direct reference to puberty I am aware of is in the context of inheritance rights.

verse 4:6 is widely viewed as the key verse on marriage requirements. And it specifically refers to the arabic word for puberty (root 'b-l-gh').

Ah. I can see why you are so reluctant to quote it. It sounds more like it is saying to give orphans their inheritance when they reach puberty.

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 2^nd, 2017 at 6:44pm:

Made any progress on that google search yet G?

more than you apparently... ;)

freediver wrote on Mar 2^nd, 2017 at 7:19pm:

Ah. I can see why you are so reluctant to quote it. It sounds more like it is saying to give orphans their inheritance when they reach puberty.

Would you prefer me to argue that Islam totally encourages pedophilia? Wait don't answer that.

It must be some perverse mindset to claim moral outrage over muslim practices such as child marriage on the one hand, but to stubbornly insist on the other that muslims have no business making a theological case against such practices. One might be forgiven that on planet earth such advocacy by muslims might be encouraged by the outrage brigade.

For me, this remains the most perplexing of the Islamophobes' attacks (and yes I can call it Islamophobic because it is completely irrational)

Quote:

Would you prefer me to argue that Islam totally encourages pedophilia?

Yes. A bit of honesty would go a long way. Pretending Islam is not the problem just condemns more children to Islams pedophile industry.


Quote:

It must be some perverse mindset to claim moral outrage over muslim practices such as child marriage on the one hand, but to stubbornly insist on the other that muslims have no business making a theological case against such practices.

Make it all you want. I'll even help you. What translation version of verse 4:6 do you think establishes puberty as the minimum age for marriage? Pick any one you want.


Quote:

One might be forgiven that on planet earth such advocacy by muslims might be encouraged by the outrage brigade

.

I would prefer we fix the problem rather than offering constant excuses and deflections for the root cause. Only religious devotion to that root cause could make you so willingly condemn so many children to the ongoing practice.

When we wanted to end slavery there was no such hand wringing. We just kept sending in armies and reshaping the middle east until it stopped. But what about the children?

freediver wrote on Mar 2^nd, 2017 at 8:18pm:

I would prefer we fix the problem rather than offering constant excuses and deflections for the root cause.

No you don't. Really you don't. Because what you are saying is the very opposite to fixing the problem. Seriously, what sort of screwed up mindest is this? - here you have what should be an ally in your crusade against Islamism - a muslim who agrees that things like child marriage are wrong and should be ruthlessly purged from this world. Yet rather than embracing these muslims, you instead choose to mock and ridicule them and call them liars (like we really secretly support pedophilia or whatever).

So just so we're clear - far from seeing it as the responsibility of muslims to advocate a theological case for opposing child marriage - you see no practical benefit in doing so?

Explain it to me FD - exactly what are we supposed to do? You are literally calling on muslims to dis their own faith. You once spoke enthusiastically about a Turkish project to review the ahadith collection and weed out the 'bad parts' that was a major source of violence and extremism in the muslim world. That of course was the pre-2007 FD. Presumably now such efforts are to be dismissed as "excuses and deflections" - no?

Quote:

So just so we're clear - far from seeing it as the responsibility of muslims to advocate a theological case for opposing child marriage - you see no practical benefit in doing so?

They have been trying to do this for 1400 years. Muhammed "recommended" people stop taking slaves. It never happened. Muhammed said he thinks less of wife beaters, but permitted it, so now the Muslim world is full of black eyes under hessian sacks. Muhammed said to respect women, despite using sex slavery to build an empire. So today we have Muslims following his example of using sex slaves to build an Islamic state. Muslims have offered various ways to reinterpret Muhammeds sex with children as putting some kind of limit on the age of consent. It never worked. It is never going to work. It simply creates the false impression that it has nothing to do with Islam among the political class who would otherwise do the most to bring an end to the practice. They are too busy swallowing your BS and trying to convince everyone else that it has nothing to do with Islam to actually stand up for what they believe in and put an end to sex slavery, pedophilia, wife beating, fraud, theft, terrorism, misogyny, pillage etc. It is the ridiculous facade that permits all the oppression to continue.


Quote:

Explain it to me FD - exactly what are we supposed to do?

You have already figured this out Gandalf.

freediver wrote on Mar 2^nd, 2017 at 8:18pm:

Quote: Would you prefer me to argue that Islam totally encourages pedophilia? Yes. A bit of honesty would go a long way. Pretending Islam is not the problem just condemns more children to Islams pedophile industry. [quote]It must be some perverse mindset to claim moral outrage over muslim practices such as child marriage on the one hand, but to stubbornly insist on the other that muslims have no business making a theological case against such practices.

Make it all you want. I'll even help you. What translation version of verse 4:6 do you think establishes puberty as the minimum age for marriage? Pick any one you want.


Quote:

One might be forgiven that on planet earth such advocacy by muslims might be encouraged by the outrage brigade

.

I would prefer we fix the problem rather than offering constant excuses and deflections for the root cause. Only religious devotion to that root cause could make you so willingly condemn so many children to the ongoing practice.

When we wanted to end slavery there was no such hand wringing. We just kept sending in armies and reshaping the middle east until it stopped. But what about the children?[/quote]

What about when we wanted to keep slavery, FD, and we had ports all through the Middle East and Africa for the cargo?

You don't like answering questions, so here's a multiple choice.

1. Freeedom.
2. Rat-cunning.
3. Political inclusiveness.
4. Google it.

freediver wrote on Mar 2^nd, 2017 at 8:43pm:

So today we have Muslims following his example of using sex slaves to build an Islamic state. Muslims have offered various ways to reinterpret Muhammeds sex with children as putting some kind of limit on the age of consent. It never worked. It is never going to work.

Define "never worked" FD. Can you explain this claim in light of the fact that the vast majority of muslim nations have an age of marriage 16 and over. Go and look the data yourself. Is child marriage a uniquely Islamic problem? Is domestic violence a uniquely Islamic problem? Of course its not - and furthermore both are rejected by a vast majority of muslims. Where is your evidence that either are universally, or even widely accepted by muslims worldwide? So your argument falls flat on its face. Your logic leads to only one conclusion - these things can't be Islamic, because most muslims reject them, and they've even enshrined their rejection of them in the laws of their respective lands - on Islamic grounds.

Whats your view of the Ahadith review program? Encouraging or spineless apologism?

Interesting that the "love" spoken of so far seems to involve puberty, so I'm guessing that is some form of sexual "love", where is love of your fellow man, not love of your fellow Muslim, where is the more ethereal all encompassing aspects of love etc.

Grendel wrote on Mar 3^rd, 2017 at 8:22am:

Interesting that the "love" spoken of so far seems to involve puberty, so I'm guessing that is some form of sexual "love", where is love of your fellow man, not love of your fellow Muslim, where is the more ethereal all encompassing aspects of love etc.

Whenever G tells you, you ignore his posts and call Brian a TROLL.

If I was G, I wouldn't bother.

Karnal wrote on Mar 3^rd, 2017 at 8:35am:

Grendel wrote on Mar 3rd, 2017 at 8:22am: Interesting that the "love" spoken of so far seems to involve puberty, so I'm guessing that is some form of sexual "love", where is love of your fellow man, not love of your fellow Muslim, where is the more ethereal all encompassing aspects of love etc. Whenever G tells you, you ignore his posts and call Brian a TROLL. If I was G, I wouldn't bother.

Liar liar pants on fire karnal.... 
Oh BTW I call bwian what he is...  a lying hypocrite...
So far you are just lying about me...  you need to up your game. :D :D :D :D :D

Quote:

Define "never worked" FD.

An example: Islam never abolished slavery. It took many centuries of direct outside pressure to force this upon them. Another example: despite the Islamic State being a clear throwback to Muhammed's example of nation building, Muslim nations by themselves would have been unable to defeat it without outside help, because Islam renders them incapable of doing so.


Quote:

Can you explain this claim in light of the fact that the vast majority of muslim nations have an age of marriage 16 and over. Go and look the data yourself. Is child marriage a uniquely Islamic problem? Is domestic violence a uniquely Islamic problem? Of course its not - and furthermore both are rejected by a vast majority of muslims.

Muslims reject many parts of Islam, thanks to Western interference. But they still hold on to many of the most barbaric aspects of Islam, despite that influence.


Quote:

Where is your evidence that either are universally, or even widely accepted by muslims worldwide?

The Pew survey is evidence of this.


Quote:

So your argument falls flat on its face. Your logic leads to only one conclusion - these things can't be Islamic, because most muslims reject them, and they've even enshrined their rejection of them in the laws of their respective lands - on Islamic grounds.

Why do you think there is such a strong anti-western reaction among conservative Muslims? It is because these influences - in particular freedom and democracy - are unIslamic.

freediver wrote on Mar 3^rd, 2017 at 5:20pm:

The Pew survey is evidence of this.

Lets start with child marriage.

Please show me the Pew survey on muslims universally or widely believing child marriage is acceptable.

After that we can move on to domestic violence.

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 3^rd, 2017 at 7:19pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 3rd, 2017 at 5:20pm: The Pew survey is evidence of this. Lets start with child marriage. Please show me the Pew survey on muslims universally or widely believing child marriage is acceptable. After that we can move on to domestic violence.

The vast majority of Muslims believe Muhammed had sex with a 9 year old girl. Only a small minority such as yourself hold the mother of Islam to be a liar.

It is undeniable that Muhammed is seen as an example to be looked up to by Muslims.  So his life sets the example for them and their behaviour and attitudes.


Quote:

Underage brides are very vulnerable and they can suffer irreparable damage, if not death, after bearing children when their bodies are not fully prepared for pregnancy. Logic identifies child marriage as an oppressive practice that has been justified through the misunderstanding and manipulation of Islam by pseudo-scholars to incorporate cruel cultural practices, most often to the expense of women.

In fact some Muslims believe in these practices as being acceptable and a good thing, according to the Prophet and to Allah. ::)

freediver wrote on Mar 3^rd, 2017 at 7:53pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 3rd, 2017 at 7:19pm: freediver wrote on Mar 3rd, 2017 at 5:20pm: The Pew survey is evidence of this. Lets start with child marriage. Please show me the Pew survey on muslims universally or widely believing child marriage is acceptable. After that we can move on to domestic violence. The vast majority of Muslims believe Muhammed had sex with a 9 year old girl. Only a small minority such as yourself hold the mother of Islam to be a liar.

Looks like FD hasn't read the Pew Survey.

Why bother? FD has one Muslim tell him everything he wants to know.

freediver wrote on Mar 3^rd, 2017 at 7:53pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 3rd, 2017 at 7:19pm: freediver wrote on Mar 3rd, 2017 at 5:20pm: The Pew survey is evidence of this. Lets start with child marriage. Please show me the Pew survey on muslims universally or widely believing child marriage is acceptable. After that we can move on to domestic violence. The vast majority of Muslims believe Muhammed had sex with a 9 year old girl. Only a small minority such as yourself hold the mother of Islam to be a liar.

Thats not the pew survey FD. Try again, or retract your BS claim. Here it is again:


freediver wrote on Mar 3^rd, 2017 at 5:20pm:

Quote: Where is your evidence that [child marriage or domestic violence] either are universally, or even widely accepted by muslims worldwide? The Pew survey is evidence of this.

Please show me the actual pew survey that demonstrates muslims "either universally or even widely" accepting child marriage and domestic violence.

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 4^th, 2017 at 7:20am:

freediver wrote on Mar 3rd, 2017 at 7:53pm: polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 3rd, 2017 at 7:19pm: freediver wrote on Mar 3rd, 2017 at 5:20pm: The Pew survey is evidence of this. Lets start with child marriage. Please show me the Pew survey on muslims universally or widely believing child marriage is acceptable. After that we can move on to domestic violence. The vast majority of Muslims believe Muhammed had sex with a 9 year old girl. Only a small minority such as yourself hold the mother of Islam to be a liar. Thats not the pew survey FD. Try again, or retract your BS claim. Here it is again: freediver wrote on Mar 3rd, 2017 at 5:20pm: Quote: Where is your evidence that [child marriage or domestic violence] either are universally, or even widely accepted by muslims worldwide? The Pew survey is evidence of this. Please show me the actual pew survey that demonstrates muslims "either universally or even widely" accepting child marriage and domestic violence.

I did not say the Pew survey is the only evidence available. Am I not allowed to use the beliefs of Muslims as evidence of what Muslims believe, on account of mentioning the survey?

So you are backpeddling your claim that the Pew survey is evidence of widespread muslim support for child marriage and domestic violence. Otherwise you would have produced the survey by now.

You could just say that FD.

Fair enough. I am back pedalling. The view of Muslims on Muhammed having sex with a 9 year old girl is far better evidence.

Happy now?

So why did you mention the pew survey?

Its a bit like stating as fact that government school funds go to terrorists without having a shred of evidence wouldn't you say?

We're seeing a bit of a pattern here FD. Do you think you have a bit of a credibility issue?

Why go to PEW....  why not go straight to the source for examples and reasons.

Feel free to correct the errors in this article, I found a couple but not many.


Quote:

https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Contemporary_Pedophilic_Islamic_Marriages

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 4^th, 2017 at 9:33am:

So why did you mention the pew survey?

Because it actually measures Muslims opinions, and makes it hard for the apologists to spew the crap they do about the "vast majority" of Muslims being regular people who just want to eat corn flakes for breakfast.

Grendel wrote on Mar 4^th, 2017 at 12:27pm:

Why go to PEW...

Good question - FD bought it up, you should ask him. And you can also ask him why after bringing it up he immediately backpeddled when asked for actual evidence.

I suspect its because FD is looking for something other than anecdotes - as even he acknowledges that things like your list of wiki-Islam anecdotes proves nothing in terms of whether there is universal or even widespread support. And worldwide surveys would indeed be good evidence. Pity he couldn't follow through with it.

So the latest is 'all muslims believe Muhammad raped a 9 year old - therefore all muslims approve of child marriage/pedophilia - and probably rape.' Yes, it really is that sophisticated. But I guess he was feeling pretty desperate after such a humiliating backdown on the Pew survey.

freediver wrote on Mar 4^th, 2017 at 12:36pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 4th, 2017 at 9:33am: So why did you mention the pew survey? Because it actually measures Muslims opinions, and makes it hard for the apologists to spew the crap they do about the "vast majority" of Muslims being regular people who just want to eat corn flakes for breakfast.

Good answer FD - A pew survey showing widespread muslim support for child marriage and domestic violence would indeed stick it to the apologists. Its just a pity it doesn't exist and you lied about it. Even more of a pity this lie of yours was so embarassingly exposed. But its the thought that counts eh?

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 4^th, 2017 at 12:42pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 4th, 2017 at 12:36pm: polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 4th, 2017 at 9:33am: So why did you mention the pew survey? Because it actually measures Muslims opinions, and makes it hard for the apologists to spew the crap they do about the "vast majority" of Muslims being regular people who just want to eat corn flakes for breakfast. Good answer FD - A pew survey showing widespread muslim support for child marriage and domestic violence would indeed stick it to the apologists. Its just a pity it doesn't exist and you lied about it. Even more of a pity this lie of yours was so embarassingly exposed. But its the thought that counts eh?

No more questions at this time. FD has left the building.

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 4^th, 2017 at 12:37pm:

Grendel wrote on Mar 4th, 2017 at 12:27pm: Why go to PEW... Good question - FD bought it up, you should ask him. And you can also ask him why after bringing it up he immediately backpeddled when asked for actual evidence. I suspect its because FD is looking for something other than anecdotes - as even he acknowledges that things like your list of wiki-Islam anecdotes proves nothing in terms of whether there is universal or even widespread support. And worldwide surveys would indeed be good evidence. Pity he couldn't follow through with it. So the latest is 'all muslims believe Muhammad raped a 9 year old - therefore all muslims approve of child marriage/pedophilia - and probably rape.' Yes, it really is that sophisticated. But I guess he was feeling pretty desperate after such a humiliating backdown on the Pew survey.

Ah but a sensible person will read the factual quotes won't they and address their veracity.

I don't think he'd have to back down about anything PEW states in their surveys.

We had a large survey here in Australia too...  that was quite an eye opener re Muslim opinions.

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 4^th, 2017 at 12:42pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 4th, 2017 at 12:36pm: polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 4th, 2017 at 9:33am: So why did you mention the pew survey? Because it actually measures Muslims opinions, and makes it hard for the apologists to spew the crap they do about the "vast majority" of Muslims being regular people who just want to eat corn flakes for breakfast. Good answer FD - A pew survey showing widespread muslim support for child marriage and domestic violence would indeed stick it to the apologists. Its just a pity it doesn't exist and you lied about it. Even more of a pity this lie of yours was so embarassingly exposed. But its the thought that counts eh?

And yet the majority of Muslims still believe Aisha when she said she was 9 years old when Muhammed had sex with her. Are you trying to mock me for thinking of the wrong evidence at the same time as conceding I was correct?

freediver wrote on Mar 4^th, 2017 at 2:42pm:

And yet the majority of Muslims still believe Aisha when she said she was 9 years old when Muhammed had sex with her.

Even if that was true - it does not automatically follow that the majority of muslims today believe sex with 9 year olds is ok in this day and age. The fact that nearly all muslim majority nations have laws forbidding it is good evidence that they don't.


freediver wrote on Mar 4^th, 2017 at 2:42pm:

Are you trying to mock me for thinking of the wrong evidence at the same time as conceding I was correct?

Firstly you are still wrong about child marriage because of the aforementioned fallacious leap in logic. Secondly you haven't addressed the second part of your BS claim - which was about domestic violence. And I'm pretty sure you've given up on pew on that one too - otherwise we would have seen the relevant survey by now.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Ins%C4%81n_al-K%C4%81mil


Quote:

"Muhammad's wisdom is uniqueness (fardiya) because he is the most perfect existent creature of this human species. For this reason, the command began with him and was sealed with him. He was a Prophet while Adam was between water and clay, and his elemental structure is the Seal of the Prophets."

One thing that pops up on Islamic sites, frequently is that Muhammad was a perfect man.   His life and habits etc...  all perfect.  LOL even Wiki, has info on it.

Do all Muslims believe this?  A majority perhaps?
If so... surely then they would also believe it is perfectly ok to marry a child.

What say you?

Grendel wrote on Mar 4^th, 2017 at 7:00pm:

One thing that pops up on Islamic sites, frequently is that Muhammad was a perfect man.   His life and habits etc...  all perfect.  LOL even Wiki, has info on it. Do all Muslims believe this?  A majority perhaps? If so... surely then they would also believe it is perfectly ok to marry a child. What say you?

I'll respond by referencing a common criticism of Muhammad and Islam - namely that while Muhammad had 11 wives, most muslims believe that muslim men are restricted to 4 wives.

The point being, while Muhammad is hailed as the greatest example for muslims to follow, evidently there are some 'examples' of the Prophet which ordinary muslims are not allowed to follow. And it well illustrates how fallacious is the logic that because muslims believe Muhammad had sex with a 9 year old - therefore sex with 9 year olds is ok for any muslim, in any time or place. The fact is muslims do rationalise this and think up ways to enable them to declare that while it was ok for Muhammad, its not ok for muslims today. However they do this, and whether or not you think they are being hypocritical, dishonest or performing ridiculous mental contortions is irrelevant to the point that they can do it, and they do do it - and this fact makes FD's leap of logic fallacious.

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 4^th, 2017 at 6:44pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 4th, 2017 at 2:42pm: And yet the majority of Muslims still believe Aisha when she said she was 9 years old when Muhammed had sex with her. Even if that was true - it does not automatically follow that the majority of muslims today believe sex with 9 year olds is ok in this day and age.

Yet not a single one of those Muslims will say it was wrong for Muhammed to have sex with a 9 year old girl. And Islam compels them to hold open the possibility of returning to officially sanctioned pedophilia if Muslims were ever able to recreate an Islamic State with conditions similar to those of Muhammed (which would never really happen, right?). Islam compels Muslims to navel gaze about whether pedophilia is inherently wrong.


Quote:

The fact that nearly all muslim majority nations have laws forbidding it is good evidence that they don't.

They also forbid slavery. No thanks to Islam of course.


Quote:

Secondly you haven't addressed the second part of your BS claim - which was about domestic violence. And I'm pretty sure you've given up on pew on that one too - otherwise we would have seen the relevant survey by now.

Gandalf, do you reject these verses of the Koran?

Quran (4:34) - "Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great." Contemporary translations sometimes water down the word 'beat', but it is the same one used in verse 8:12 and clearly means 'to strike'.

Quran (38:44) - "And take in your hand a green branch and beat her with it, and do not break your oath..." Allah telling Job to beat his wife (Tafsir).


Quote:

I'll respond by referencing a common criticism of Muhammad and Islam - namely that while Muhammad had 11 wives, most muslims believe that muslim men are restricted to 4 wives.

So Muhammed was a hypocrite. That's great Gandalf. What does it prove?


Quote:

And it well illustrates how fallacious is the logic that because muslims believe Muhammad had sex with a 9 year old - therefore sex with 9 year olds is ok for any muslim, in any time or place. The fact is muslims do rationalise this and think up ways to enable them to declare that while it was ok for Muhammad, its not ok for muslims today. However they do this, and whether or not you think they are being hypocritical, dishonest or performing ridiculous mental contortions is irrelevant to the point that they can do it, and they do do it - and this fact makes FD's leap of logic fallacious.

No you are lying Gandalf. The reason Muslims consider 4 wives to be the limit, despite Muhammed himself having 11 wives, is that Muhammed decreed that 4 wives is the limit for everyone but himself. He made no such decree with pedophilia.

He didn't answer the question, FD.

G, are you trying to mock FD?

No one has the right to not be offended, you know.

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 4^th, 2017 at 7:23pm:

Grendel wrote on Mar 4th, 2017 at 7:00pm: One thing that pops up on Islamic sites, frequently is that Muhammad was a perfect man.   His life and habits etc...  all perfect.  LOL even Wiki, has info on it. Do all Muslims believe this?  A majority perhaps? If so... surely then they would also believe it is perfectly ok to marry a child. What say you? I'll respond by referencing a common criticism of Muhammad and Islam - namely that while Muhammad had 11 wives, most muslims believe that muslim men are restricted to 4 wives. The point being, while Muhammad is hailed as the greatest example for muslims to follow, evidently there are some 'examples' of the Prophet which ordinary muslims are not allowed to follow. And it well illustrates how fallacious is the logic that because muslims believe Muhammad had sex with a 9 year old - therefore sex with 9 year olds is ok for any muslim, in any time or place. The fact is muslims do rationalise this and think up ways to enable them to declare that while it was ok for Muhammad, its not ok for muslims today. However they do this, and whether or not you think they are being hypocritical, dishonest or performing ridiculous mental contortions is irrelevant to the point that they can do it, and they do do it - and this fact makes FD's leap of logic fallacious.

So you are evading my point...  ok, I believe there are a few Muslim words for that too.

freediver wrote on Mar 4^th, 2017 at 8:39pm:

Gandalf, do you reject these verses of the Koran?

Shall I quote all the new testament verses stipulating the inferior status of women? No one can seriously argue that the Quranic attitude towards women is any worse than the Biblical attitude. And yet Christians are by and large respectful of women today. Theoretically it should be easier for muslims to justify respect for women - Islamically. So scripture alone cannot be used as proof of what muslims do in practice. Which is why this fallacious leap in logic was not your first choice of argument - your first choice was a non-existent survey of actual muslim attitudes. Which would have been perfect has it been real - its just a shame you pulled it out of your arse.

Gandalf could you only come up with one relevant reference to love from the Koran?


Quote:

Shall I quote all the new testament verses stipulating the inferior status of women?

Only if you think it is relevant Gandalf. Does it affect whether you reject Muhammed's instructions to beat women?


Quote:

So scripture alone cannot be used as proof of what muslims do in practice.

Is anyone doing this? What is your point Gandalf?


Quote:

Which is why this fallacious leap in logic

What leap in logic? Are you building another elaborate strawman? Like the one where you implied I only think wife beating is bad if you wear stubbies and things while doing it?


Quote:

your first choice was a non-existent survey of actual muslim attitudes.

Are you saying that the Pew survey does not even exist?

freediver wrote on Mar 6^th, 2017 at 7:00pm:

What leap in logic? Are you building another elaborate strawman?

The leap in logic that most muslims believing Muhammad had sex with a 9 year old 1400 years ago = most muslims think that child marriage is a-ok in contemporary times. That was your "proof" remember - you know, after you got caught out lying about PEW.

freediver wrote on Mar 6^th, 2017 at 7:00pm:

Are you saying that the Pew survey does not even exist?

Yes I am FD. So are you - thats why you admitted that you backpeddled remember?

Obviously if a pew survey existed that showed widespread muslim support for domestic violence and child marriage you would have produced it by now. No doubt you've spend the last few days desperately searching for it.

Quote:

The leap in logic that most muslims believing Muhammad had sex with a 9 year old 1400 years ago = most muslims think that child marriage is a-ok in contemporary times.

Most Muslims think Muhammed's moral example is a timeless one. Do you think it is, or is Muhammed a dated example of morality that we ought to discard, bit by bit, as non-Muslims explain to you lot what it wrong with it?


Quote:

That was your "proof" remember - you know, after you got caught out lying about PEW.

What lie?


polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 6^th, 2017 at 7:11pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 6th, 2017 at 7:00pm: Are you saying that the Pew survey does not even exist? Yes I am FD.

Liar.


Quote:

So are you - thats why you admitted that you backpeddled remember?

I changed my mind about what evidence to use.

freediver wrote on Mar 6^th, 2017 at 7:18pm:

Most Muslims think Muhammed's moral example is a timeless one. Do you think it is, or is Muhammed a dated example of morality that we ought to discard, bit by bit, as non-Muslims explain to you lot what it wrong with it?

I think most muslims who buy into the Muhammad-had-sex-with-child story perform all sorts of creative mental gymnastics to come to a belief that it is not an example that is appropriate for this day and age. Prevailing norms and laws that exist in most muslim-majority countries (ie its banned) - is good evidence to support this. Just like Christians have demonstrably found ways to reject New Testament commands that women are inferior and should be kept out of sight - while still claiming to be faithful to the Bible. (of course in reality there is world of difference - since that unlike Biblical views on women, nowhere is child marriage endorsed in the Quran).


freediver wrote on Mar 6^th, 2017 at 7:18pm:

What lie?

when you made up a non-existent PEW survey. Thats called lying FD.


freediver wrote on Mar 6^th, 2017 at 7:18pm:

I changed my mind about what evidence to use.

;D because that evidence doesn't exist - a little detail that was only revealed after I called you on your BS.

Quote:

I think most muslims who buy into the Muhammad-had-sex-with-child story perform all sorts of creative mental gymnastics to come to a belief that it is not an example that is appropriate for this day and age.

Which always leaves open the possibility of it being appropriate if the conditions, whatever they identify them as, arise again. Like in Syria for example.


Quote:

Just like Christians have demonstrably found ways to reject New Testament commands that women are inferior and should be kept out of sight

OK go on then, show us where it says this.


Quote:

since that unlike Biblical views on women, nowhere is child marriage endorsed in the Quran).

Except of course for the bit about Muhammed being the best example of men.


Quote:

when you made up a non-existent PEW survey. Thats called lying FD.

We have had numerous threads dedicated to it since you turned up here.


Quote:

because that evidence doesn't exist

No, because I don't have to go looking to know that Muhammed had sex with a 9 year old girl, and this is a recurring cause of misery for children around the world.

freediver wrote on Mar 6^th, 2017 at 8:15pm:

No, because I don't have to go looking to know that Muhammed had sex with a 9 year old girl, and this is a recurring cause of misery for children around the world.

And yet you only resorted to this "evidence" after you are caught out lying about a non-existent PEW survey - your first choice. Presumably you still wouldn't have mentioned it if I hadn't called you out.

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 6^th, 2017 at 8:44pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 6th, 2017 at 8:15pm: No, because I don't have to go looking to know that Muhammed had sex with a 9 year old girl, and this is a recurring cause of misery for children around the world. And yet you only resorted to this "evidence" after you are caught out lying about a non-existent PEW survey - your first choice. Presumably you still wouldn't have mentioned it if I hadn't called you out.

The Pew survey exists Gandalf.

Of course it does FD, you just prefer not to show us.

We have had many threads dedicated to it.

Have you forgotten?

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 6^th, 2017 at 7:30pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 6th, 2017 at 7:18pm: Most Muslims think Muhammed's moral example is a timeless one. Do you think it is, or is Muhammed a dated example of morality that we ought to discard, bit by bit, as non-Muslims explain to you lot what it wrong with it? I think most muslims who buy into the Muhammad-had-sex-with-child story perform all sorts of creative mental gymnastics to come to a belief that it is not an example that is appropriate for this day and age. Prevailing norms and laws that exist in most muslim-majority countries (ie its banned) - is good evidence to support this. , nowhere is child marriage endorsed in the Quran).

$Profit Mo did have sex with a child, it's in the Islamic texts.
Sunnah.com/bukhari/67/70

Does the Quran tell you to follow $Profit Mo's example? The Quran does endorse child brides when it tells you to follow $Profit Mo's example.
quran.com/33/21

Lots of Islamic websites saying the Quran tells you to follow $Profit Mo's example not only with having sex with children and your slaves it would also include rape pillage and plunder along with killing jewish men so muslims can marry the jewish women.
google.com.au/?gws_rd=ssl#q=quran+tells+you+to+follow+the+example+of+muhammad

Some of Yemen's most influential Islamic leaders say those who oppose child brides are apostates and should have their heads chopped off.
smh.com.au/world/top-clerics-oppose-ban-on-child-brides-20100322-qrk8.html

If muslims oppose child brides it's in spite of Islam not because of Islam. :)

freediver wrote on Mar 6^th, 2017 at 10:03pm:

We have had many threads dedicated to it. Have you forgotten?

Yes I have FD - I have indeed "forgotton" all those threads about PEW surveys on muslim attitudes to a) domestic violence and b) child marriage. Why? Because there are none.

uh oh another one in total denial...

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 7^th, 2017 at 6:34am:

freediver wrote on Mar 6th, 2017 at 10:03pm: We have had many threads dedicated to it. Have you forgotten? Yes I have FD - I have indeed "forgotton" all those threads about PEW surveys on muslim attitudes to a) domestic violence and b) child marriage. Why? Because there are none.

Now now, G, you know as well as I do that when FD talks about Muslim attitudes towards domestic violence and child marriage, he is referring to Malaysian attitudes on the death penalty for apostasy.

FD can draw you a Venn diagram if you want.

Gandalf we have only talked about one Pew survey. We have always used the singular when discussing it. You are feigning confusion. You are now trying to dig your way out by telling another lie about multiple surveys. This would be a whole lot simpler if you did not make stuff up with every single post.


polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 5^th, 2017 at 10:24am:

freediver wrote on Mar 4th, 2017 at 8:39pm: Gandalf, do you reject these verses of the Koran? Shall I quote all the new testament verses stipulating the inferior status of women? No one can seriously argue that the Quranic attitude towards women is any worse than the Biblical attitude.

freediver wrote on Mar 6^th, 2017 at 8:15pm:

Quote: Just like Christians have demonstrably found ways to reject New Testament commands that women are inferior and should be kept out of sight OK go on then, show us where it says this.

Gandalf you have been begging us to ask you for the evidence so you can demonstrate that Christianity is in some way as bad as Islam. Now is your opportunity.

Also Gandalf, is there only one direct reference to love in the Koran that you consider relevant here?

freediver wrote on Mar 7^th, 2017 at 6:49pm:

Gandalf we have only talked about one Pew survey. We have always used the singular when discussing it. You are feigning confusion. You are now trying to dig your way out by telling another lie about multiple surveys. This would be a whole lot simpler if you did not make stuff up with every single post.

What has this bizarre tangent got to do with your inability to produce the survey on child marriage and domestic violence? I have referenced several PEW surveys over the years FD. None of them to my knowledge mentioned anything about muslim attitudes about domestic violence or child marriage. Can you show me them?


freediver wrote on Mar 7^th, 2017 at 6:49pm:

Gandalf you have been begging us to ask you for the evidence so you can demonstrate that Christianity is in some way as bad as Islam. Now is your opportunity.

define "as bad" FD. My references re the new testament were only about the inferior status of women:

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1487240389/37#37

My point being, keeping women subordinate - as commanded by the NT is not really a "thing" amongst christians nowadays.

FD, can you provide the Pew survey you're referring to?

We'll have a little look-see.

Quote:

What has this bizarre tangent got to do with your inability to produce the survey on child marriage and domestic violence?

You denied the existence of the Pew survey, then somehow decided we are talking about multiple surveys dedicated entirely to the topic. The bizarre tangent is a reflection of your bizarre arguments.

If you want more closet-to-home evidence of Muslims supporting domestic violence, I give you your own support of wife beating as a valid way of asking women what they are thinking, your insistence that Islamic wife beating is better because it lacks the 'drunk bogan' connotations, etc. Abu also spoke out on the wonders of wife beating. He thinks it is a good way to shake a woman out of a nasty mood. We are yet to have a Muslim here who rejects wife beating unequivocally, because Muhammed's statements in the Koran and Muhammed's own actions compel them to defend and support the practice.


Quote:

define "as bad" FD

You are the one who introduced the comparison Gandalf. Are you now asking me to explain it?


polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 5^th, 2017 at 10:24am:

freediver wrote on Mar 4th, 2017 at 8:39pm: Gandalf, do you reject these verses of the Koran? Shall I quote all the new testament verses stipulating the inferior status of women? No one can seriously argue that the Quranic attitude towards women is any worse than the Biblical attitude. And yet Christians are by and large respectful of women today. Theoretically it should be easier for muslims to justify respect for women - Islamically. So scripture alone cannot be used as proof of what muslims do in practice. Which is why this fallacious leap in logic was not your first choice of argument - your first choice was a non-existent survey of actual muslim attitudes. Which would have been perfect has it been real - its just a shame you pulled it out of your arse.

No wonder you are now reluctant to paste the quotes.

Karnal wrote on Mar 8^th, 2017 at 10:04am:

FD, can you provide the Pew survey you're referring to? We'll have a little look-see.

Sorry, FD, I see you've already provided the evidence. This should do:


Quote:

If you want more closet-to-home evidence of Muslims supporting domestic violence, I give you your own support of wife beating as a valid way of asking women what they are thinking, your insistence that Islamic wife beating is better because it lacks the 'drunk bogan' connotations, etc. Abu also spoke out on the wonders of wife beating. He thinks it is a good way to shake a woman out of a nasty mood. We are yet to have a Muslim here who rejects wife beating unequivocally, because Muhammed's statements in the Koran and Muhammed's own actions compel them to defend and support the practice.

Hang on, you did say more information, didn't you? In addition to the Pew survey?

Better post the right survey, FD - just to be on the safe side.

freediver wrote on Mar 8^th, 2017 at 6:01pm:

You denied the existence of the Pew survey, then somehow decided we are talking about multiple surveys dedicated entirely to the topic. The bizarre tangent is a reflection of your bizarre arguments.

;D ok FD. Whatever contortions you feel is necessary to avoid admitting the survey doesn't exist.

Maybe you really are as clueless as you are making out to be. Who knows. Whatever it is, this is just weird.


freediver wrote on Mar 8^th, 2017 at 6:01pm:

We are yet to have a Muslim here who rejects wife beating unequivocally

Except me of course. But I know its much more fun to make up crap about what I said - Gandalf loves wife beating, Gandalf thinks gays should be executed for doing it mardi gras style...

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 8^th, 2017 at 6:19pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 8th, 2017 at 6:01pm: You denied the existence of the Pew survey, then somehow decided we are talking about multiple surveys dedicated entirely to the topic. The bizarre tangent is a reflection of your bizarre arguments. ;D ok FD. Whatever contortions you feel is necessary to avoid admitting the survey doesn't exist.

Now now, G, FD has the survey. He's looking for it as we speak.

You wait and see, it'll show your Muselman to be a real rotter. I mean, look at the evidence FD's got already:


Quote:

If you want more closet-to-home evidence of Muslims supporting domestic violence, I give you your own support of wife beating as a valid way of asking women what they are thinking, your insistence that Islamic wife beating is better because it lacks the 'drunk bogan' connotations, etc. Abu also spoke out on the wonders of wife beating. He thinks it is a good way to shake a woman out of a nasty mood. We are yet to have a Muslim here who rejects wife beating unequivocally, because Muhammed's statements in the Koran and Muhammed's own actions compel them to defend and support the practice.

Oh look:

http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-overview/

Around 84% of South Asian Muslims (the largest group of them) support shariah law.

93% of southeast asian Muslims believe a woman should obey her husband.

freediver wrote on Mar 8^th, 2017 at 6:25pm:

Oh look: http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-overview/ Around 84% of South Asian Muslims (the largest group of them) support shariah law. 93% of southeast asian Muslims believe a woman should obey her husband.

Yes thats what I thought FD.

No pew survey showing muslim attitudes on domestic violence or child marriage.

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 8^th, 2017 at 6:19pm:

Except me of course. But I know its much more fun to make up crap about what I said - Gandalf loves wife beating, Gandalf thinks gays should be executed for doing it mardi gras style...

But you have to, don't you? Muhammed's statements in the Koran and Muhammed's own actions compel you to defend and support the practice.

I don't know why we're bothering to find this Pew survey, the proof's all there. Still, if it makes you happy -

FD?

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 8^th, 2017 at 6:27pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 8th, 2017 at 6:25pm: Oh look: http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-overview/ Around 84% of South Asian Muslims (the largest group of them) support shariah law. 93% of southeast asian Muslims believe a woman should obey her husband. Yes thats what I thought FD. No pew survey showing muslim attitudes on domestic violence or child marriage.

He's getting to it, don't you worry.

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 8^th, 2017 at 6:27pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 8th, 2017 at 6:25pm: Oh look: http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-overview/ Around 84% of South Asian Muslims (the largest group of them) support shariah law. 93% of southeast asian Muslims believe a woman should obey her husband. Yes thats what I thought FD. No pew survey showing muslim attitudes on domestic violence or child marriage.

Are you trying to disagree with me Gandalf? Do you now agree with my original point, prior to your bizarre tangent, that there is far better evidence of what Muslims believe? For example:

Muhammed beating his favourite child bride.

Muhammed instructing Muslims to beat their wives in the Koran.

Your support for wife beating, obviously influenced by Muhammed and the Koran.

Abu's support for wife beating.

freediver wrote on Mar 8^th, 2017 at 6:29pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 8th, 2017 at 6:27pm: freediver wrote on Mar 8th, 2017 at 6:25pm: Oh look: http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-overview/ Around 84% of South Asian Muslims (the largest group of them) support shariah law. 93% of southeast asian Muslims believe a woman should obey her husband. Yes thats what I thought FD. No pew survey showing muslim attitudes on domestic violence or child marriage. Are you trying to disagree with me Gandalf? Do you now agree with my original point, prior to your bizarre tangent, that there is far better evidence of what Muslims believe? For example: Muhammed beating his favourite child bride. Muhammed instructing Muslims to beat their wives in the Koran. Your support for wife beating, obviously influenced by Muhammed and the Koran. Abu's support for wife beating.

Well, maybe. Still, there's only one way we can be sure.

Have you found the Pew survey yet?

freediver wrote on Mar 8^th, 2017 at 6:29pm:

Are you trying to disagree with me Gandalf? Do you now agree with my original point

No FD, funnily enough I don't agree with your original point that there is any pew survey showing muslim support for domestic violence or child abuse. You lied about it - remember?

But you are succeeding in making yourself look more and more silly in your bizarre attempts to avoid this inconvenient fact.

freediver wrote on Mar 8^th, 2017 at 6:29pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 8th, 2017 at 6:27pm: freediver wrote on Mar 8th, 2017 at 6:25pm: Oh look: http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-overview/ Around 84% of South Asian Muslims (the largest group of them) support shariah law. 93% of southeast asian Muslims believe a woman should obey her husband. Yes thats what I thought FD. No pew survey showing muslim attitudes on domestic violence or child marriage. Are you trying to disagree with me Gandalf? Do you now agree with my original point, prior to your bizarre tangent, that there is far better evidence of what Muslims believe? For example: Muhammed beating his favourite child bride. Muhammed instructing Muslims to beat their wives in the Koran. Your support for wife beating, obviously influenced by Muhammed and the Koran. Abu's support for wife beating.

Ah, so PEW's off the table now?

Still on the table Gandalf. Which do you think is better evidence, the Pew survey, or this:

Muhammed beating his favourite child bride.

Muhammed instructing Muslims to beat their wives in the Koran.

Your support for wife beating, obviously influenced by Muhammed and the Koran.

Abu's support for wife beating.

?

freediver wrote on Mar 8^th, 2017 at 6:44pm:

Still on the table Gandalf.

So go on and show us the pew survey showing muslim attitudes on domestic violence and child marriage. Chop chop.


freediver wrote on Mar 8^th, 2017 at 6:44pm:

Which do you think is better evidence, the Pew survey, or this:

I agree FD - even your fallacious leaps in logic are probably marginally better than surveys that don't exist. Maybe. Its a photo finish.

Tell us Gandalf, what is the punishment for wife beating under Shariah law?

Thats the spirit FD - hopefully if you throw enough random red herrings around we'll all forget you lied about the PEW survey. Just as long as you don't have to acknowledge the lie - thats the main aim here.

So let me get this straight. The Pew survey shows that the majority of Muslims support Shariah law. You are afraid to comment on what that means for the legality of wife beating.

But this is a red herring, rather than evidence for what Muslims think?

Do you not know what the punishment for wife beating is under Shariah law, or are you merely trying to mislead people?

freediver wrote on Mar 8^th, 2017 at 7:02pm:

So let me get this straight. The Pew survey shows that the majority of Muslims support Shariah law. You are afraid to comment on what that means for the legality of wife beating. But this is a red herring, rather than evidence for what Muslims think? Do you not know what the punishment for wife beating is under Shariah law, or are you merely trying to mislead people?

FD's going for the world record for fallacious leaps in logic.

How long did it take to concoct that one FD? You've been working on that ever since I caught you out lying about non-existent PEW surveys haven't you?

I guess you're still working on how this survey somehow proves support for child marriage - without actually having a survey on child marriage.

Quote:

How long did it take to concoct that one FD?

I cam up with it about 3 seconds after googling the Pew survey results.


Quote:

I guess you're still working on how this survey somehow proves support for child marriage

Ah. I see I have to explain this one also. The majority of Muslims support Shariah law. What is the punishment for child marriage under Shariah law?

Do you not know what the punishment for wife beating is under Shariah law, or are you merely trying to mislead people?

No doubt thats what they asked in the survey:

"oh muslim who supports Sharia - what is the sharia punishment for child marriage/domestic violence? Don't know? Good - tick that as another supporter for child marriage and domestic violence"

Do you not know what the punishment for wife beating is under Shariah law, or are you merely trying to mislead people?

freediver wrote on Mar 8^th, 2017 at 7:16pm:

Do you not know what the punishment for wife beating is under Shariah law, or are you merely trying to mislead people?

There you go folks - FD just proved I support wife beating - without actually asking my views on wife beating. Genius isn't it?

freediver wrote on Mar 8^th, 2017 at 6:44pm:

Still on the table Gandalf. Which do you think is better evidence, the Pew survey, or this: Muhammed beating his favourite child bride. Muhammed instructing Muslims to beat their wives in the Koran. Your support for wife beating, obviously influenced by Muhammed and the Koran. Abu's support for wife beating. ?

The Pew survey would probably be better evidence,?FD.

What does it say?

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 8^th, 2017 at 7:23pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 8th, 2017 at 7:16pm: Do you not know what the punishment for wife beating is under Shariah law, or are you merely trying to mislead people? There you go folks - FD just proved I support wife beating - without actually asking my views on wife beating. Genius isn't it?

Yes, but FD's read the Pew survey. He'd know for shure.

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 8^th, 2017 at 7:23pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 8th, 2017 at 7:16pm: Do you not know what the punishment for wife beating is under Shariah law, or are you merely trying to mislead people? There you go folks - FD just proved I support wife beating - without actually asking my views on wife beating. Genius isn't it?

If you don't actually know Gandalf you should just say, otherwise people might misinterpret the evidence.

freediver wrote on Mar 8^th, 2017 at 8:04pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 8th, 2017 at 7:23pm: freediver wrote on Mar 8th, 2017 at 7:16pm: Do you not know what the punishment for wife beating is under Shariah law, or are you merely trying to mislead people? There you go folks - FD just proved I support wife beating - without actually asking my views on wife beating. Genius isn't it? If you don't actually know Gandalf you should just say, otherwise people might misinterpret the evidence.

Have you thought of posting the evidence, FD?

I think you'll find it's in the Pew survey.

Then YOU post it and stop wasting everyone's time...

Grendel wrote on Mar 9^th, 2017 at 7:18am:

Then YOU post it and stop wasting everyone's time...

Me?

Gee, I never thought of that. Let's ask FD.

FD, can I post your Pew survey? We'll have a little look-see.

Got nothing as usual I see.... ::)

Grendel wrote on Mar 9^th, 2017 at 4:28pm:

Got nothing as usual I see.... ::)

You're right. I've been looking for FD's Pew survey all over this site, and do you know?

It seems to have disappeared.

FD?

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 8^th, 2017 at 7:23pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 8th, 2017 at 7:16pm: Do you not know what the punishment for wife beating is under Shariah law, or are you merely trying to mislead people? There you go folks - FD just proved I support wife beating - without actually asking my views on wife beating. Genius isn't it?

You are a Koran-believing Muslim.  The Koran says it's OK to beat your wife.  You believe in wife beating until you reject the Koran.

Which you will not do.  So you ARE a believer in wife beating on divine authority.  You are THAT gullible and stupid.

Frank wrote on Mar 10^th, 2017 at 8:39pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 8th, 2017 at 7:23pm: freediver wrote on Mar 8th, 2017 at 7:16pm: Do you not know what the punishment for wife beating is under Shariah law, or are you merely trying to mislead people? There you go folks - FD just proved I support wife beating - without actually asking my views on wife beating. Genius isn't it? You are a Koran-believing Muslim.  The Koran says it's OK to beat your wife.  You believe in wife beating until you reject the Koran. Which you will not do.  So you ARE a believer in wife beating on divine authority.  You are THAT gullible and stupid.

I respectfully disagree with this analysis.

Where's your wife, Frank? I'm curious.

Back in the old country, is she?

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 10^th, 2017 at 9:18pm:

Frank wrote on Mar 10th, 2017 at 8:39pm: polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 8th, 2017 at 7:23pm: freediver wrote on Mar 8th, 2017 at 7:16pm: Do you not know what the punishment for wife beating is under Shariah law, or are you merely trying to mislead people? There you go folks - FD just proved I support wife beating - without actually asking my views on wife beating. Genius isn't it? You are a Koran-believing Muslim.  The Koran says it's OK to beat your wife.  You believe in wife beating until you reject the Koran. Which you will not do.  So you ARE a believer in wife beating on divine authority.  You are THAT gullible and stupid. I respectfully disagree with this analysis.

What you cannot do is to demonstrate that it is wrong.

This is why you are rightly regarded as an insincere Muslim apologist. What you 'believe' counts for nothing when it comes to what Muslims actually DO.

Karnal wrote on Mar 10^th, 2017 at 9:19pm:

Where's your wife, Frank? I'm curious. Back in the old country, is she?

You are my wife, bitch.
Wife No 879.

Frank wrote on Mar 10^th, 2017 at 9:22pm:

Karnal wrote on Mar 10th, 2017 at 9:19pm: Where's your wife, Frank? I'm curious. Back in the old country, is she? You are my wife, bitch. Wife No 879.

You are divorced, yes?

Again I respectfully disagree.

I have covered the 'beating' verse before at length. There is a strong and convincing refutation of it, that is easily found on a simple google search.

Other Quranic verses emphasising mutual love and protection and respect are completely at odds with the 'wife beating' interpretation.

Sure, but Frank sees his own toxic relationships as pure because Lutherans theoretically believe in Christian love.

Frank, you see, believes he's saved, and therefore superior to the Muselman.

Culture, innit.

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 10^th, 2017 at 9:18pm:

Frank wrote on Mar 10th, 2017 at 8:39pm: polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 8th, 2017 at 7:23pm: freediver wrote on Mar 8th, 2017 at 7:16pm: Do you not know what the punishment for wife beating is under Shariah law, or are you merely trying to mislead people? There you go folks - FD just proved I support wife beating - without actually asking my views on wife beating. Genius isn't it? You are a Koran-believing Muslim.  The Koran says it's OK to beat your wife.  You believe in wife beating until you reject the Koran. Which you will not do.  So you ARE a believer in wife beating on divine authority.  You are THAT gullible and stupid. I respectfully disagree with this analysis.

What about the vast majority of the world's Muslims who support Shariah law? What do you think they are anticipating the punishment would be for wife beating?

You banged on about the Pew survey for several pages Gandalf. Now you seem reluctant to discuss it for some reason.

freediver wrote on Mar 11^th, 2017 at 8:49am:

What about the vast majority of the world's Muslims who support Shariah law? What do you think they are anticipating the punishment would be for wife beating? You banged on about the Pew survey for several pages Gandalf. Now you seem reluctant to discuss it for some reason.

Not at all FD - if only you had a pew survey saying what muslims think the punishment is for wife beating - I'd be happy to talk about that all day.

freediver wrote on Mar 11^th, 2017 at 8:49am:

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 10th, 2017 at 9:18pm: Frank wrote on Mar 10th, 2017 at 8:39pm: polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 8th, 2017 at 7:23pm: freediver wrote on Mar 8th, 2017 at 7:16pm: Do you not know what the punishment for wife beating is under Shariah law, or are you merely trying to mislead people? There you go folks - FD just proved I support wife beating - without actually asking my views on wife beating. Genius isn't it? You are a Koran-believing Muslim.  The Koran says it's OK to beat your wife.  You believe in wife beating until you reject the Koran. Which you will not do.  So you ARE a believer in wife beating on divine authority.  You are THAT gullible and stupid. I respectfully disagree with this analysis. What about the vast majority of the world's Muslims who support Shariah law? What do you think they are anticipating the punishment would be for wife beating? You banged on about the Pew survey for several pages Gandalf. Now you seem reluctant to discuss it for some reason.

What have you done with the Pew survey, FD?

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 11^th, 2017 at 9:55am:

freediver wrote on Mar 11th, 2017 at 8:49am: What about the vast majority of the world's Muslims who support Shariah law? What do you think they are anticipating the punishment would be for wife beating? You banged on about the Pew survey for several pages Gandalf. Now you seem reluctant to discuss it for some reason. Not at all FD - if only you had a pew survey saying what muslims think the punishment is for wife beating - I'd be happy to talk about that all day.

What about the vast majority of the world's Muslims who support Shariah law? What do you think they are anticipating the punishment would be for wife beating?

Sorry, FD, is this it? You wouldn't say. I had to Google it.

http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-overview/

freediver wrote on Mar 11^th, 2017 at 2:31pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 11th, 2017 at 9:55am: freediver wrote on Mar 11th, 2017 at 8:49am: What about the vast majority of the world's Muslims who support Shariah law? What do you think they are anticipating the punishment would be for wife beating? You banged on about the Pew survey for several pages Gandalf. Now you seem reluctant to discuss it for some reason. Not at all FD - if only you had a pew survey saying what muslims think the punishment is for wife beating - I'd be happy to talk about that all day. What about the vast majority of the world's Muslims who support Shariah law? What do you think they are anticipating the punishment would be for wife beating?

I would prefer to actually ask them their views on a given matter before making fallacious leaps of logic.

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 11^th, 2017 at 2:55pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 11th, 2017 at 2:31pm: polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 11th, 2017 at 9:55am: freediver wrote on Mar 11th, 2017 at 8:49am: What about the vast majority of the world's Muslims who support Shariah law? What do you think they are anticipating the punishment would be for wife beating? You banged on about the Pew survey for several pages Gandalf. Now you seem reluctant to discuss it for some reason. Not at all FD - if only you had a pew survey saying what muslims think the punishment is for wife beating - I'd be happy to talk about that all day. What about the vast majority of the world's Muslims who support Shariah law? What do you think they are anticipating the punishment would be for wife beating? I would prefer to actually ask them their views on a given matter before making fallacious leaps of logic.

Well, can we look at the Pew survey? I hope this is okay with everyone.

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 11^th, 2017 at 2:55pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 11th, 2017 at 2:31pm: polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 11th, 2017 at 9:55am: freediver wrote on Mar 11th, 2017 at 8:49am: What about the vast majority of the world's Muslims who support Shariah law? What do you think they are anticipating the punishment would be for wife beating? You banged on about the Pew survey for several pages Gandalf. Now you seem reluctant to discuss it for some reason. Not at all FD - if only you had a pew survey saying what muslims think the punishment is for wife beating - I'd be happy to talk about that all day. What about the vast majority of the world's Muslims who support Shariah law? What do you think they are anticipating the punishment would be for wife beating? I would prefer to actually ask them their views on a given matter before making fallacious leaps of logic.

Short of spending millions on another survey, would you like to take a guess Gandalf?

Why are you so keen to ask other Muslims their opinion when you are not even willing to offer your own opinion?

What do you think is the Shariah punishment for wife beating?

Would you say that this sort of obfuscation is typical for Muslims who are trying to reform Islam's image among non-Muslims? How can you claim to be a serious reformer if you are not even willing to acknowledge the problem?

freediver wrote on Mar 11^th, 2017 at 3:22pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 11th, 2017 at 2:55pm: freediver wrote on Mar 11th, 2017 at 2:31pm: polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 11th, 2017 at 9:55am: freediver wrote on Mar 11th, 2017 at 8:49am: What about the vast majority of the world's Muslims who support Shariah law? What do you think they are anticipating the punishment would be for wife beating? You banged on about the Pew survey for several pages Gandalf. Now you seem reluctant to discuss it for some reason. Not at all FD - if only you had a pew survey saying what muslims think the punishment is for wife beating - I'd be happy to talk about that all day. What about the vast majority of the world's Muslims who support Shariah law? What do you think they are anticipating the punishment would be for wife beating? I would prefer to actually ask them their views on a given matter before making fallacious leaps of logic. Short of spending millions on another survey, would you like to take a guess Gandalf?

There's no need to guess, FD. We have the Pew survey.

Here it is. http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-overview/

Would you like to read it?

Would you say that this sort of obfuscation is typical for Freeeeeedom-fanciers who are trying to reform Freeeeedom's image among Muslims?

freediver wrote on Mar 11^th, 2017 at 3:22pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 11th, 2017 at 2:55pm: freediver wrote on Mar 11th, 2017 at 2:31pm: polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 11th, 2017 at 9:55am: freediver wrote on Mar 11th, 2017 at 8:49am: What about the vast majority of the world's Muslims who support Shariah law? What do you think they are anticipating the punishment would be for wife beating? You banged on about the Pew survey for several pages Gandalf. Now you seem reluctant to discuss it for some reason. Not at all FD - if only you had a pew survey saying what muslims think the punishment is for wife beating - I'd be happy to talk about that all day. What about the vast majority of the world's Muslims who support Shariah law? What do you think they are anticipating the punishment would be for wife beating? I would prefer to actually ask them their views on a given matter before making fallacious leaps of logic. Short of spending millions on another survey, would you like to take a guess Gandalf? Why are you so keen to ask other Muslims their opinion when you are not even willing to offer your own opinion? What do you think is the Shariah punishment for wife beating? Would you say that this sort of obfuscation is typical for Muslims who are trying to reform Islam's image among non-Muslims? How can you claim to be a serious reformer if you are not even willing to acknowledge the problem?

Never offer my own opinion? Really FD? Would you like to hazard a guess as to how many times I have stated unequivocally my opposition to domestic violence and that I believe unequivocally that it is *NOT* sanctioned in the Quran? Why, I even told Frank this just last night. For the resident necroposter, you are remarkably selective in what you want to dig up.

And here's a tip FD: if you want to know if I support domestic violence, ask me if I support domestic violence - rather than try a stupid gotcha question like 'what is the sharia punishment'. Most things that are prohibited by Islam don't have a proscribed 'sharia' punishment - thats how absurd your question is. What is the sharia punishment for drinking alcohol FD? What is it for consuming pork? What is it for skipping prayers? Well I guess they must be approved by the sharia then huh?

What do you think is the Shariah punishment for wife beating?


Quote:

Most things that are prohibited by Islam don't have a proscribed 'sharia' punishment - thats how absurd your question is.

And yet the vast majority of today's Muslims support Shariah law. Do you think they intend to make it up as they go along? Or do you think they might have a few ideas in mind about what it implies?

Do you support Shariah law?


Quote:

Would you like to hazard a guess as to how many times I have stated unequivocally my opposition to domestic violence and that I believe unequivocally that it is *NOT* sanctioned in the Quran?

You also appear to believe that when Muhammed struck his favourite child bride, causing her pain, this was not domestic violence but a valid way of asking her what she was thinking.

Do you deny the existence of the Koranic verses specifically endorsing wife beating?

freediver wrote on Mar 11^th, 2017 at 4:32pm:

What do you think is the Shariah punishment for wife beating? Quote: Most things that are prohibited by Islam don't have a proscribed 'sharia' punishment - thats how absurd your question is. And yet the vast majority of today's Muslims support Shariah law. Do you think they intend to make it up as they go along?

They most certainly do, FD.


Quote:

Women's rights Muslims’ attitudes toward women’s rights are mixed. In most parts of the world, Muslims say that a woman should be able to decide whether to wear a veil. Yet when it comes to private life, most Muslims say a wife should always obey her husband. There is considerable disagreement over whether a wife should be able to initiate a divorce and whether a daughter should be able to receive an inheritance equal to a son’s. Across five of the six major regions included in the study, majorities of Muslims in most countries say a woman should be able to decide for herself whether to wear a veil in public. Medians of roughly seven-in-ten or more take this view in Southern and Eastern Europe (88%), Southeast Asia (79%) and Central Asia (73%). But fewer say women should have this right in South Asia (56%) and the Middle East-North Africa region (53%). Sub-Saharan Africa is the only region where a median of less than half (40%) think a woman should be able to decide for herself whether to wear a veil. (For more details on views toward veiling,

http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-overview/

freediver wrote on Mar 11^th, 2017 at 4:32pm:

Do you deny the existence of the Koranic verses specifically endorsing wife beating?

Yes - and I have gone over the counter-argument many times.


freediver wrote on Mar 11^th, 2017 at 4:32pm:

And yet the vast majority of today's Muslims support Shariah law. Do you think they intend to make it up as they go along?

Thats exactly what they do FD - and thats by design. As I said almost all things considered sins in Islam don't have a prescribed punishment. But it doesn't make them not sins. And attempting to wedge a muslim who doesn't even believe sharia involves earthly punishments in the first place - by rhetorically asking him what he thinks the punishment for a given sin is - is particularly silly.


freediver wrote on Mar 11^th, 2017 at 4:32pm:

port Shariah law

Of course - but obviously not what you or Jacqui Lambie think sharia is. And no, it doesn't include wife beating - or child marriage for that matter.

'Sharia' literally means 'way to the water hole' - and simply means the correct path to God - and as far as I'm concerned has nothing whatsoever to do with earthly laws or punishments and is entirely personal and spiritual.

Quote:

Yes - and I have gone over the counter-argument many times.

That would be impressive. How do you counter something whose very existence you deny?


Quote:

Thats exactly what they do FD - and thats by design. As I said almost all things considered sins in Islam don't have a prescribed punishment. But it doesn't make them not sins. And attempting to wedge a muslim who doesn't even believe sharia involves earthly punishments in the first place - by rhetorically asking him what he thinks the punishment for a given sin is - is particularly silly.

I was initially trying to ask you what you think those Muslims who do support Shariah law think the punishment for wife beating under Shariah law is, but you also dodged that one.


Quote:

'Sharia' literally means 'way to the water hole' - and simply means the correct path to God - and as far as I'm concerned has nothing whatsoever to do with earthly laws or punishments and is entirely personal and spiritual.

And what of the vast majority of today's Muslims who said they support "Shariah Law"? Was this another misunderstanding?

Freeeeedom


Quote:

Democracy and Religious Freedom Most Muslims around the world express support for democracy, and most say it is a good thing when others are very free to practice their religion. At the same time, many Muslims want religious leaders to have at least some influence in political matters. Given a choice between a leader with a strong hand or a democratic system of government, most Muslims choose democracy. Regional medians of roughly six-in-ten or more support democracy in sub-Saharan Africa (72%), Southeast Asia (64%) and Southern and Eastern Europe (58%), while slightly fewer agree in the Middle East and North Africa (55%) and Central Asia (52%). Muslims in South Asia are the most skeptical of democratic government (a median of 45% say they support democracy).

http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-overview/

Making it up as they go along


Quote:

Muslims Who Favor Making Sharia Official Law When Muslims around the world say they want sharia to be the law of the land, what role do they envision for religious law in their country? First, many, but by no means all, supporters of sharia believe the law of Islam should apply only to Muslims. In addition, those who favor Islamic law tend to be most comfortable with its application to questions of family and property.9 In some regions, fewer back the imposition of severe punishments in criminal cases, such as cutting off the hands of thieves – an area of sharia known in Arabic as hudud (see Glossary). But in South Asia and the Middle East and North Africa, medians of more than half back both severe criminal punishments and the death penalty for Muslims who renounce their faith. Muslims who favor making sharia the law of the land generally agree that the requirements of Islam should apply only to Muslims. Across the regions where the question was asked, medians of at least 51% say sharia should apply exclusively to adherents of the Muslim faith. This view is prevalent even in regions such as South Asia, Southeast Asia and the Middle East and North Africa, where there is overwhelming support for enshrining sharia as the official law of the land.

http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-overview/

Taking away the Freeeeeedoms of decent white people everywhere


Quote:

Extremism Widely Rejected Muslims around the world strongly reject violence in the name of Islam. Asked specifically about suicide bombing, clear majorities in most countries say such acts are rarely or never justified as a means of defending Islam from its enemies. In most countries where the question was asked, roughly three-quarters or more Muslims reject suicide bombing and other forms of violence against civilians. And in most countries, the prevailing view is that such acts are never justified as a means of defending Islam from its enemies. Yet there are some countries in which substantial minorities think violence against civilians is at least sometimes justified. This view is particularly widespread among Muslims in the Palestinian territories (40%), Afghanistan (39%), Egypt (29%) and Bangladesh (26%). The survey finds little evidence that attitudes toward violence in the name of Islam are linked to factors such as age, gender or education. Similarly, the survey finds no consistent link between support for enshrining sharia as official law and attitudes toward religiously motivated violence. In only three of the 15 countries with sufficient samples sizes for analysis – Egypt, Kosovo and Tunisia – are sharia supporters significantly more likely to say suicide bombing and other forms of violence are at least sometimes justified. In Bangladesh, sharia supporters are significantly less likely to hold this view. In a majority of countries surveyed, at least half of Muslims say they are somewhat or very concerned about religious extremism. And on balance, more Muslims are concerned about Islamic than Christian extremist groups. In all but one of the 36 countries where the question was asked, no more than one-in-five Muslims express worries about Christian extremism, compared with 28 countries where at least that many say they are concerned about Islamic extremist groups. This includes six countries in which 40% or more of Muslims worry about Islamic extremism: Guinea Bissau (54%), Indonesia (53%), Kazakhstan (46%), Iraq (45%), Ghana (45%) and Pakistan (40%).

http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-overview/

freediver wrote on Mar 8^th, 2017 at 7:02pm:

The Pew survey shows that the majority of Muslims support Shariah law.

That's true, FD. Did you read the bit after that?


Quote:

Overwhelming percentages of Muslims in many countries want Islamic law (sharia) to be the official law of the land, according to a worldwide survey by the Pew Research Center. But many supporters of sharia say it should apply only to their country’s Muslim population. Moreover, Muslims are not equally comfortable with all aspects of sharia: While most favor using religious law in family and property disputes, fewer support the application of severe punishments – such as whippings or cutting off hands – in criminal cases. The survey also shows that Muslims differ widely in how they interpret certain aspects of sharia, including whether divorce and family planning are morally acceptable.

http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-overview/

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 11^th, 2017 at 5:03pm:

'Sharia' literally means 'way to the water hole' - and simply means the correct path to God - and as far as I'm concerned has nothing whatsoever to do with earthly laws or punishments and is entirely personal and spiritual.

But you're not allowed to believe that, shurely.

Doesn't Islam compel you to kill off decent white non-Muslims and impose Sharia law?

If FD was still here, that's what he'd say.

freediver wrote on Mar 11^th, 2017 at 5:08pm:

That would be impressive. How do you counter something whose very existence you deny?

The contention is not over the existence of verse 4:34 and the use of the root word 'd-r-b' (commonly interpreted as 'strike'). Obviously. But you would know this if you ever bothered to listen to what I have painstakingly explained on the subject - many times.


freediver wrote on Mar 11^th, 2017 at 5:08pm:

I was initially trying to ask you what you think those Muslims who do support Shariah law think the punishment for wife beating under Shariah law is, but you also dodged that one.

No muslim would tell you there is any 'sharia' prescribed punishment for wife beating - just like they would never tell you there is any prescribed punishment for drinking alcohol or taking part in usury, or skipping fasting - or most other activities deemed sins in Islam. And yet it doesn't mean they are not considered a sin or "illegal" under sharia law.

Now do you understand how stupid your question is and why it was treated with the contempt it deserves?

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 11^th, 2017 at 5:40pm:

Now do you understand how stupid your question is and why it was treated with the contempt it deserves?

It must have worked on Abu. FD hounded him over this one for a good six months.

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 10^th, 2017 at 9:29pm:

Again I respectfully disagree. I have covered the 'beating' verse before at length. There is a strong and convincing refutation of it, that is easily found on a simple google search.

The koran is not the immutable, eternal and unchangeable word of Allah, then?

Is this a new development we all seem to have missed??

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 11^th, 2017 at 5:40pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 11th, 2017 at 5:08pm: That would be impressive. How do you counter something whose very existence you deny? The contention is not over the existence of verse 4:34 and the use of the root word 'd-r-b' (commonly interpreted as 'strike'). Obviously. But you would know this if you ever bothered to listen to what I have painstakingly explained on the subject - many times. freediver wrote on Mar 11th, 2017 at 5:08pm: I was initially trying to ask you what you think those Muslims who do support Shariah law think the punishment for wife beating under Shariah law is, but you also dodged that one. No muslim would tell you there is any 'sharia' prescribed punishment for wife beating - just like they would never tell you there is any prescribed punishment for drinking alcohol or taking part in usury, or skipping fasting - or most other activities deemed sins in Islam. And yet it doesn't mean they are not considered a sin or "illegal" under sharia law. Now do you understand how stupid your question is and why it was treated with the contempt it deserves?

By their ACTION ye shall judge them, not by the convoluted, slimey apologetics of their apologists, for Allah is merciful and not a little confused.  Oh, yeah.  Koran 47:267

Karnal wrote on Mar 10^th, 2017 at 10:18pm:

Sure, but Frank sees his own toxic relationships as pure because Lutherans theoretically believe in Christian love. Frank, you see, believes he's saved, and therefore superior to the Muselman. Culture, innit.

Well, not being like you IS being saved.

Reading you here every day makes me grateful. I could be a lost condemned farker like you. God is merciful for sending you as a warning.

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 10^th, 2017 at 9:18pm:

Frank wrote on Mar 10th, 2017 at 8:39pm: polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 8th, 2017 at 7:23pm: freediver wrote on Mar 8th, 2017 at 7:16pm: Do you not know what the punishment for wife beating is under Shariah law, or are you merely trying to mislead people? There you go folks - FD just proved I support wife beating - without actually asking my views on wife beating. Genius isn't it? 1 You are a Koran-believing Muslim.  2 The Koran says it's OK to beat your wife.  3 You believe in wife beating until you reject the Koran. 4 Which you will not do.  5 So you ARE a believer in wife beating on divine authority.  6 You are THAT gullible and stupid. I respectfully disagree with this analysis.

There are six propositions in my post. I have now numbered them.  At which one are we parting ways?

Frank wrote on Mar 11^th, 2017 at 6:15pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 10th, 2017 at 9:29pm: Again I respectfully disagree. I have covered the 'beating' verse before at length. There is a strong and convincing refutation of it, that is easily found on a simple google search. The koran is not the immutable, eternal and unchangeable word of Allah, then? Is this a new development we all seem to have missed??

It is. The question is what that "word" actually is.

Frank wrote on Mar 11^th, 2017 at 6:25pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 10th, 2017 at 9:18pm: Frank wrote on Mar 10th, 2017 at 8:39pm: polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 8th, 2017 at 7:23pm: freediver wrote on Mar 8th, 2017 at 7:16pm: Do you not know what the punishment for wife beating is under Shariah law, or are you merely trying to mislead people? There you go folks - FD just proved I support wife beating - without actually asking my views on wife beating. Genius isn't it? 1 You are a Koran-believing Muslim.  2 The Koran says it's OK to beat your wife.  3 You believe in wife beating until you reject the Koran. 4 Which you will not do.  5 So you ARE a believer in wife beating on divine authority.  6 You are THAT gullible and stupid. I respectfully disagree with this analysis. There are six propositions in my post. I have now numbered them.  At which one are we parting ways?

At number 2.

Frank wrote on Mar 11^th, 2017 at 6:15pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 10th, 2017 at 9:29pm: Again I respectfully disagree. I have covered the 'beating' verse before at length. There is a strong and convincing refutation of it, that is easily found on a simple google search. The koran is not the immutable, eternal and unchangeable word of Allah, then?

No, old boy, that's the Pew survey. FD can make it say whatever he likes.

Frank wrote on Mar 11^th, 2017 at 6:21pm:

Karnal wrote on Mar 10th, 2017 at 10:18pm: Sure, but Frank sees his own toxic relationships as pure because Lutherans theoretically believe in Christian love. Frank, you see, believes he's saved, and therefore superior to the Muselman. Culture, innit. Well, not being like you IS being saved.

But, dear boy, I believe in Christian love!

You?

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 11^th, 2017 at 6:32pm:

Frank wrote on Mar 11th, 2017 at 6:25pm: polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 10th, 2017 at 9:18pm: Frank wrote on Mar 10th, 2017 at 8:39pm: polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 8th, 2017 at 7:23pm: freediver wrote on Mar 8th, 2017 at 7:16pm: Do you not know what the punishment for wife beating is under Shariah law, or are you merely trying to mislead people? There you go folks - FD just proved I support wife beating - without actually asking my views on wife beating. Genius isn't it? 1 You are a Koran-believing Muslim.  2 The Koran says it's OK to beat your wife.  3 You believe in wife beating until you reject the Koran. 4 Which you will not do.  5 So you ARE a believer in wife beating on divine authority.  6 You are THAT gullible and stupid. I respectfully disagree with this analysis. There are six propositions in my post. I have now numbered them.  At which one are we parting ways? At number 2.

You are a fraudulent, lying buffoon like Brian.

Sahih International: Men are in charge of women by [right of] what Allah has given one over the other and what they spend [for maintenance] from their wealth. So righteous women are devoutly obedient, guarding in [the husband's] absence what Allah would have them guard. But those [wives] from whom you fear arrogance - [first] advise them; [then if they persist], forsake them in bed; and [finally], strike them. But if they obey you [once more], seek no means against them. Indeed, Allah is ever Exalted and Grand.

Pickthall: Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High, Exalted, Great.

Yusuf Ali: Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all).

Shakir: Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great.

Muhammad Sarwar: Men are the protectors of women because of the greater preference that God has given to some of them and because they financially support them. Among virtuous women are those who are steadfast in prayer and dependable in keeping the secrets that God has protected. Admonish women who disobey (God's laws), do not sleep with them and beat them. If they obey (the laws of God), do not try to find fault in them. God is High and Supreme.

Mohsin Khan: Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has made one of them to excel the other, and because they spend (to support them) from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient (to Allah and to their husbands), and guard in the husband's absence what Allah orders them to guard (e.g. their chastity, their husband's property, etc.). As to those women on whose part you see ill­conduct, admonish them (first), (next), refuse to share their beds, (and last) beat them (lightly, if it is useful), but if they return to obedience, seek not against them means (of annoyance). Surely, Allah is Ever Most High, Most Great.

Arberry: Men are the managers of the affairs of women for that God has preferred in bounty one of them over another, and for that they have expended of their property. Righteous women are therefore obedient, guarding the secret for God's guarding. And those you fear may be rebellious admonish; banish them to their couches, and beat them. If they then obey you, look not for any way against them; God is All-high, All-great.

Frank wrote on Mar 11^th, 2017 at 8:49pm:

You are a fraudulent, lying buffoon like Brian.

And once again we see this bizarre denigration campaign against muslims who are attempting to do exactly as you demand - reject the extremist elements in Islam....

Anyway... the word you highlight is a translation of the arab word with the rot 'd-r-b'.

The same word has been used in other parts of the Quran to give a different meaning to 'beat' or 'strike'. There is a good case to be made that d-r-b in this verse means 'separate from (her)' .

Karnal wrote on Mar 11^th, 2017 at 5:22pm:

Taking away the Freeeeeedoms of decent white people everywhere Quote: Extremism Widely Rejected Muslims around the world strongly reject violence in the name of Islam. Asked specifically about suicide bombing, clear majorities in most countries say such acts are rarely or never justified as a means of defending Islam from its enemies. In most countries where the question was asked, roughly three-quarters or more Muslims reject suicide bombing and other forms of violence against civilians. And in most countries, the prevailing view is that such acts are never justified as a means of defending Islam from its enemies. Yet there are some countries in which substantial minorities think violence against civilians is at least sometimes justified. This view is particularly widespread among Muslims in the Palestinian territories (40%), Afghanistan (39%), Egypt (29%) and Bangladesh (26%). The survey finds little evidence that attitudes toward violence in the name of Islam are linked to factors such as age, gender or education. Similarly, the survey finds no consistent link between support for enshrining sharia as official law and attitudes toward religiously motivated violence. In only three of the 15 countries with sufficient samples sizes for analysis – Egypt, Kosovo and Tunisia – are sharia supporters significantly more likely to say suicide bombing and other forms of violence are at least sometimes justified. In Bangladesh, sharia supporters are significantly less likely to hold this view. In a majority of countries surveyed, at least half of Muslims say they are somewhat or very concerned about religious extremism. And on balance, more Muslims are concerned about Islamic than Christian extremist groups. In all but one of the 36 countries where the question was asked, no more than one-in-five Muslims express worries about Christian extremism, compared with 28 countries where at least that many say they are concerned about Islamic extremist groups. This includes six countries in which 40% or more of Muslims worry about Islamic extremism: Guinea Bissau (54%), Indonesia (53%), Kazakhstan (46%), Iraq (45%), Ghana (45%) and Pakistan (40%). http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-overview/

I think even Abu rejected suicide bombing. This is not a rejection of extremism. It is a rejection of the 'incorrect' flavour of extremism.


Karnal wrote on Mar 11^th, 2017 at 5:14pm:

Freeeeedom Quote: Democracy and Religious Freedom Most Muslims around the world express support for democracy, and most say it is a good thing when others are very free to practice their religion. At the same time, many Muslims want religious leaders to have at least some influence in political matters. Given a choice between a leader with a strong hand or a democratic system of government, most Muslims choose democracy. Regional medians of roughly six-in-ten or more support democracy in sub-Saharan Africa (72%), Southeast Asia (64%) and Southern and Eastern Europe (58%), while slightly fewer agree in the Middle East and North Africa (55%) and Central Asia (52%). Muslims in South Asia are the most skeptical of democratic government (a median of 45% say they support democracy). http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-overview/

No wonder those Muslim countries are such shitholes, when they struggle to get a majority to support democracy. Karnal what size minority do you think it takes to effectively undrmine democracy? If 40% of Australians were ideologically opposed to it, how long do you think it would last?


Quote:

First, many, but by no means all, supporters of sharia believe the law of Islam should apply only to Muslims. In addition, those who favor Islamic law tend to be most comfortable with its application to questions of family and property.

Do you think this might extend to Muhammed's instruction to beat your wife if she is disobedient?

Would you like to take a guess at what punishment they expect for wife beating under Shariah law? Or do you prefer Gandalf's strategy of passing it off as some unfathomable mystery?


Quote:

But in South Asia and the Middle East and North Africa, medians of more than half back both severe criminal punishments and the death penalty for Muslims who renounce their faith.

How wonderful. So the majority of Muslims in both the homeland of Islam, and the most populous region for Muslims, as well as north africa, back the worst aspects of political Islam. Karnal what point were you trying to make with this?


Quote:

The contention is not over the existence of verse 4:34 and the use of the root word 'd-r-b' (commonly interpreted as 'strike'). Obviously. But you would know this if you ever bothered to listen to what I have painstakingly explained on the subject - many times.

I recall you implying that the mother of Islam (Muhammed's favourite child bride) was lying when she said Muhammed struck her, causing her pain.

Quote:

No muslim would tell you there is any 'sharia' prescribed punishment for wife beating - just like they would never tell you there is any prescribed punishment for drinking alcohol or taking part in usury, or skipping fasting - or most other activities deemed sins in Islam. And yet it doesn't mean they are not considered a sin or "illegal" under sharia law.

According to Abu it may be "frowned upon" but as far as the law goes, it is specifically permitted, on the grounds that Muhammad instructed Muslims to beat their wives in the Koran and also did so himself.


Quote:

That is why you duck and weave when asked what the implications are for domestic violence legislation when the vast majority of Muslims support shariah law. Now do you understand how stupid your question is and why it was treated with the contempt it deserves?

It is treated with evasion and obfuscation. You will try every trick in the book to avoid acknowledging the evidence, including moralistic huffing and puffing.


Quote:

It is. The question is what that "word" actually is.

Most Muslims think it means wife beating. Most Muslims want this incorporated into shariah law. Feel free to re-write the Koran if you wish, but don't expect us to take it seriously, or to believe you have any hope of getting the world's Muslims to take it seriously. A lot of them would kill you for your efforts if they had their way.

FD, are you disagreeing with what Muslims actually say,? Are you saying the Pew survey is wrong?

I'm curious. I'm keen to know more.

freediver wrote on Mar 12^th, 2017 at 8:44am:

No wonder those Muslim countries are such shitholes, when they struggle to get a majority to support democracy.

Even Australia struggles to get a majority support for democracy FD - according to the Lowy Institute annual survey on the subject:


Quote:

For more than a decade, the Lowy Institute has conducted annual polls of Australian attitudes to issues of national importance. In 2014, only about 60 per cent of Australians, and only 42 per cent of those aged 18 to 29 years, agreed with the statement "democracy is preferable to any other kind of government". That is 58 per cent, well over half, who effectively disagreed with democracy.

democracy is even less popular amongst the young:


Quote:

Note that although they had a slightly more positive view, still fewer than half of young people surveyed preferred democracy. Just over a quarter agreed that "it doesn't matter what kind of government we have". The results attracted less attention than the 2015 security and foreign policy findings (admittedly "slightly better than last year but still of concern" is not a great headline). However, they confirmed the long-term trend: a significant number of Australians, and a majority of young people, now have little faith in our democracy. There is further corroborative evidence in the increased number of young people who either fail to enrol to vote or vote informal.

http://www.canberratimes.com.au/national/public-service/our-jaded-countrys-lost-faith-in-democracy-and-how-to-fix-it-20150730-gio9mk.html

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 12^th, 2017 at 8:43am:

Frank wrote on Mar 11th, 2017 at 8:49pm: You are a fraudulent, lying buffoon like Brian. And once again we see this bizarre denigration campaign against muslims who are attempting to do exactly as you demand - reject the extremist elements in Islam.... Anyway... the word you highlight is a translation of the arab word with the rot 'd-r-b'. The same word has been used in other parts of the Quran to give a different meaning to 'beat' or 'strike'. There is a good case to be made that d-r-b in this verse means 'separate from (her)' .

Bollocks.

You know you are lying.

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 12^th, 2017 at 11:32am:

freediver wrote on Mar 12th, 2017 at 8:44am: No wonder those Muslim countries are such shitholes, when they struggle to get a majority to support democracy. Even Australia struggles to get a majority support for democracy FD - according to the Lowy Institute annual survey on the subject: Quote: For more than a decade, the Lowy Institute has conducted annual polls of Australian attitudes to issues of national importance. In 2014, only about 60 per cent of Australians, and only 42 per cent of those aged 18 to 29 years, agreed with the statement "democracy is preferable to any other kind of government". That is 58 per cent, well over half, who effectively disagreed with democracy. democracy is even less popular amongst the young: [quote]Note that although they had a slightly more positive view, still fewer than half of young people surveyed preferred democracy. Just over a quarter agreed that "it doesn't matter what kind of government we have". The results attracted less attention than the 2015 security and foreign policy findings (admittedly "slightly better than last year but still of concern" is not a great headline). However, they confirmed the long-term trend: a significant number of Australians, and a majority of young people, now have little faith in our democracy. There is further corroborative evidence in the increased number of young people who either fail to enrol to vote or vote informal.

http://www.canberratimes.com.au/national/public-service/our-jaded-countrys-lost-faith-in-democracy-and-how-to-fix-it-20150730-gio9mk.html


[/quote]

You sound excited Gandalf.

The result was slightly better in the recent 2015 Lowy poll: 65 per cent of the voting age population, and 49 per cent of young people, now say democracy is preferable.

Probably thanks to Islam reminding them of what the alternative looks like.

freediver wrote on Mar 12^th, 2017 at 12:47pm:

The result was slightly better in the recent 2015 Lowy poll: 65 per cent of the voting age population, and 49 per cent of young people, now say democracy is preferable. Probably thanks to Islam reminding them of what the alternative looks like.

35% of Australians, and 51% of young people are "ideologically opposed" to democracy - apparently.

How long do you think democracy will last in Australia FD?

Do we blame Islam for this?

Quote:

"ideologically opposed" to democracy

What do you think this means Gandalf?

freediver wrote on Mar 12^th, 2017 at 9:07pm:

Quote: "ideologically opposed" to democracy What do you think this means Gandalf?

Don't answer that, G. FD has an Abu story waiting to go.

Sometimes a question is just a question.

freediver wrote on Mar 12^th, 2017 at 9:07pm:

Quote: "ideologically opposed" to democracy What do you think this means Gandalf?

Ah that is indeed the question FD.

Notice how the muslim survey from which you latched on to that phrase mentioned nothing of the sort? So when muslims express scepticism for democracy it is automatically an "ideological opposition", despite no mention of it, but when decent white Australians do the same, it must be something far less sinister.

God forbid the muslims who are sceptical of democracy might feel that way because they see the corruption running rampant in their "democractic" systems. Perish the thought - it can only be sinister muslims once again being sinister.

So where are those quotes on love and forgiveness...  surely there are some somewhere?

Quote:

Notice how the muslim survey from which you latched on to that phrase mentioned nothing of the sort?

If it does not mention it, what on earth makes you think I latched on to it from there?


Quote:

So when muslims express scepticism for democracy it is automatically an "ideological opposition", despite no mention of it

http://www.ozpolitic.com/photos/democracy-freedom-death-row-islam-coming.jpg

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1487846626

Islam is the greatest modern threat to freedom and democracy. There is no way around this one Gandalf.


Quote:

but when decent white Australians do the same, it must be something far less sinister.

Are you suggesting there is an ideological component to the survey result?


Quote:

God forbid the muslims who are sceptical of democracy might feel that way because they see the corruption running rampant in their "democractic" systems. Perish the thought - it can only be sinister muslims once again being sinister.

You mean Allah, right?

Abu liked to explain that Islam actually supports democracy - so long as only Muslims can vote, only Muslims can run for office, and Shariah law is the only platform they are allowed to run on. After all, that is how Islam spread from West Africa to India in just a century (without bothering with a facade of democracy).

freediver wrote on Mar 13^th, 2017 at 7:09pm:

Are you suggesting there is an ideological component to the survey result?

I'm suggesting there is no evidence of any ideological component to either survey result - and your claims that one does, and one doesn't is not only baseless, but unfair and bigoted.

No evidence at all eh?

http://www.ozpolitic.com/photos/democracy-freedom-death-row-islam-coming.jpg

freediver wrote on Mar 13^th, 2017 at 9:25pm:

No evidence at all eh? http://www.ozpolitic.com/photos/democracy-freedom-death-row-islam-coming.jpg

Unless we count Abu and make up his views on democracy, shure.

Still, we'll always have the Pew survey, no?

freediver wrote on Mar 13^th, 2017 at 9:25pm:

No evidence at all eh?

correct.

A picture of some random guy with a banner is not evidence of the ideological motivation of people responding in a survey.

I reckon my 4 year old son could comprehend that.

Hmmm  confirm or deny...

http://freethoughtnation.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/koranwomen1.jpg

Confirm or deny...

http://theconservativestandard.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/12246995_556039207882927_2223024093878555955_n.jpg

Confirm or deny...

http://www.barenakedislam.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/unnamed2-vi.jpg

Confirm or deny...

https://oneway2day.files.wordpress.com/2015/12/image0041.jpg

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 14^th, 2017 at 6:35am:

freediver wrote on Mar 13th, 2017 at 9:25pm: No evidence at all eh? correct. A picture of some random guy with a banner is not evidence of the ideological motivation of people responding in a survey. I reckon my 4 year old son could comprehend that.

Islam is the ideological motivation for Muslims responding to a survey saying they want Shariah law. Your son could probably understand that to. Meanwhile you think it is some unfathomable mystery.

freediver wrote on Mar 14^th, 2017 at 7:11pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 14th, 2017 at 6:35am: freediver wrote on Mar 13th, 2017 at 9:25pm: No evidence at all eh? correct. A picture of some random guy with a banner is not evidence of the ideological motivation of people responding in a survey. I reckon my 4 year old son could comprehend that. Islam is the ideological motivation for Muslims responding to a survey saying they want Shariah law. Your son could probably understand that to. Meanwhile you think it is some unfathomable mystery.

Excellent point FD - except they didn't say they prefer sharia law.


Quote:

Most Muslims around the world express support for democracy, and most say it is a good thing when others are very free to practice their religion. At the same time, many Muslims want religious leaders to have at least some influence in political matters. Given a choice between a leader with a strong hand or a democratic system of government, most Muslims choose democracy. Regional medians of roughly six-in-ten or more support democracy in sub-Saharan Africa (72%), Southeast Asia (64%) and Southern and Eastern Europe (58%), while slightly fewer agree in the Middle East and North Africa (55%) and Central Asia (52%). Muslims in South Asia are the most skeptical of democratic government (a median of 45% say they support democracy).

Where did you get the part about these muslims prefering sharia law over democracy FD? Oh thats right, you just made it up like you always do.

I posted the Pew survey results in the last few days Gandalf, showing a clear majority support Shariah law.

As well as democracy. hmmm


Quote:

Most Muslims around the world express support for democracy, and most say it is a good thing when others are very free to practice their religion. At the same time, many Muslims want religious leaders to have at least some influence in political matters.

Tell me this is a case of muslims not really meaning what they say. That'll give us all a good laugh.

Yes, I would sound nearly as silly as you Gandalf. Do you recall anyone recently arguing that Muslims do not mean what they say in these surveys?

freediver wrote on Mar 14^th, 2017 at 8:31pm:

I posted the Pew survey results in the last few days Gandalf, showing a clear majority support Shariah law.

No no, FD, you've been avoiding posting the Pew survey here in the last few days.

An easy mistake to make. Anybody could do it.

14 pages...  and where is the love guys?

Grendel wrote on Mar 15^th, 2017 at 7:06am:

14 pages...  and where is the love guys?

Better check the Pew survey, Grendel.