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Message started by mothra on Jan 31st, 2017 at 4:55pm

Title: A guide to the Geneva Convention for beginners
Post by mothra on Jan 31st, 2017 at 4:55pm
A guide to the Geneva Convention for beginners, dummies and newly elected world leaders
OPINION
The Conversation By Rhona Smith

Donald Trump is said to have received a phone call from German Chancellor Angela Merkel following the announcement of his executive order suspending the US Refugee Admission Programme for 120 days. During their discussion it seems Merkel had to explain the Geneva Convention to her newly elected US counterpart.

Trump's decision to suspend the program, as well as banning entry to aliens from Iraq, Syria, Iran, Libya, Somalia, Sudan and Yemen for 90 days, is indeed highly questionable in terms of international law. So here's a brief guide for anyone who finds themselves suddenly and unexpectedly in charge of one of the largest immigration systems in the world.

The international legal position on this matter is clear. The US must permit entry and afford refuge to anyone it has recognised as a refugee or to whom it has granted asylum. Moreover, it cannot return any person to a country where she or he may suffer torture or other persecution. No ifs, no buts, no qualifications on national security.

Merkel will have reminded Trump that the United States is a party to the 1967 Protocol Relating to the Status of Refugees. This prescribed the continuing application of the 1951 Convention relating to the status of refugees which was adopted to address the aftermath of World War II. That original convention was agreed in Geneva so it is sometimes referred to as the Geneva Convention.

As the US voluntarily accepted the 1967 protocol to the refugee convention, it is legally obliged to implement it. Despite Trump's personal complaints about these "rules", all other states party to the protocol and convention can legitimately expect the US to comply – hence the expressions of dismay from other heads of state as Trump announced his executive order.

The Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR) was created in 1950 as part of attempts to help and resettle the millions of people who fled or lost their homes in World War II. It was only meant to operate for three years, but it remains a key UN agency today. Indeed, it was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize in 1954 and again in 1981 and continues to lead on the right to asylum and to seek a safe place of refuge for those fleeing violence, war, persecution or natural disasters.

According to Article 1 of the Geneva Convention and Protocol Relating to the Status of Refugees, a refugee is a person who:

Owing to well-founded fear of being persecuted for reasons of race, religion, nationality, membership of a particular social group or political opinion, is outside the country of his nationality and is unable or, owing to such fear, is unwilling to avail himself of the protection of that country; or who, not having a nationality and being outside the country of his former habitual residence as a result of such events, is unable or, owing to such fear, is unwilling to return to it.
States can recognise that refugee status either when the person presents themselves to the state seeking sanctuary (such as at an embassy, airport or port) or when the person enters a state illegally then seeks sanctuary. The US has a longstanding system of recognising refugees before they travel to the country (such as in refugee camps) through the US Refugee Admission Programme. Once in the country, refugees can be expelled on grounds of national security but they should be allowed to seek refuge elsewhere before being deported.

With regard to refusing entry and sending people back, the law is also clear. Article 33 provides that:

No contracting state shall expel or return a refugee in any manner whatsoever to the frontiers of territories where his life or freedom would be threatened on account of his race, religion, nationality, membership of a particular social group or political opinion.
There is an exemption if there are reasonable grounds for believing the person poses a security risk to the country but, under the convention, those reasons need clarification and justification to an appropriate legal standard. The US has lodged no valid reservations about the people barred from entry under this executive order so it is bound to follow the text as it stands.

The convention must also be applied without discrimination as to race, religion or country of origin – a point reiterated by the UNHCR in its response to the executive order. Clearly prohibiting all refugees from Syria, or any other country, falls foul of that provision.

So Trump is very clearly disregarding the Geneva Convention in a number of ways through his executive order. However, there is no formal complaint mechanism under the protocol. Though other contracting states can complain in accordance with international treaty law (in effect, complain about a breach of contract), states inevitably favour "softer" options of diplomatic representations and behind-the-scenes negotiations to bring states into line.

The executive order also potentially has implications for US compliance with other international human rights treaties – particularly the Convention against Torture (on sending back refugees) and the Convention on the Elimination of all forms of Racial Discrimination (if the case for racial bias is made). Independent UN treaty monitoring bodies will no doubt review that in due course.


Title: Re: A guide to the Geneva Convention for beginners
Post by mothra on Jan 31st, 2017 at 4:55pm
It is perhaps surprising that the leader of the United States needs to be schooled on this matter, and perhaps even more so that he apparently needs to learn about it only after announcing such a momentous policy. But these are, in so many ways, surprising times.


http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-01-31/guide-to-the-geneva-convention-for-newly-elected-world-leaders/8225730?sf53543413=1

Title: Re: A guide to the Geneva Convention for beginners
Post by cods on Jan 31st, 2017 at 5:07pm
it is easy to be sanctimonious .. but even i know a lot of water has flown under the bridge  since 1967..

the 60s was the most fantastic era life was great we had a ball..
no one saw any of this coming...

and I mean no one.. we lived in a different world then...

I am not saying what Trump is doing is right it does seem heavy handed.....but ..

who is a refugee today????...I am almost positive the definition of a refugee was different in 1967 to what it is in 2017..

some folks need to be a little more realistic in 2017....

its a completely different world.sadly!

Title: Re: A guide to the Geneva Convention for beginners
Post by bogarde73 on Jan 31st, 2017 at 5:07pm
The Geneva Convention is no longer fit for purpose in current world conditions.

Title: Re: A guide to the Geneva Convention for beginners
Post by longweekend58 on Jan 31st, 2017 at 5:23pm

bogarde73 wrote on Jan 31st, 2017 at 5:07pm:
The Geneva Convention is no longer fit for purpose in current world conditions.


Because it is inconvenient? the entire point of the Geneve Convention is to dictate how we shoudl behave when things ARE difficult. It WW2 taught us anything is that monumental cruelty and inhumanity is only ever just below the surface and we simply MUST prevent it from ever taking root and that starts by having solid RULE AND CONVENTIONS.

Trump already supports torture and openly admitted such. Might change his mind if he were on the receiving end.

Title: Re: A guide to the Geneva Convention for beginners
Post by bogarde73 on Jan 31st, 2017 at 5:30pm
And neither is the UN for that matter. In fact it has been an irrelevant waste of western taxpayers' money almost since its inception.
But you poor little misguided souls continue wishing on a star if it makes you feel better.

Title: Re: A guide to the Geneva Convention for beginners
Post by AnotherJourneyByTrain on Jan 31st, 2017 at 5:38pm

mothra wrote on Jan 31st, 2017 at 4:55pm:
A guide to the Geneva Convention for beginners, dummies and newly elected world leaders
OPINION
The Conversation By Rhona Smith

Donald Trump is said to have received a phone call from German Chancellor Angela Merkel following the announcement of his executive order suspending the US Refugee Admission Programme for 120 days. During their discussion it seems Merkel had to explain the Geneva Convention to her newly elected US counterpart.

Trump's decision to suspend the program, as well as banning entry to aliens from Iraq, Syria, Iran, Libya, Somalia, Sudan and Yemen for 90 days, is indeed highly questionable in terms of international law. So here's a brief guide for anyone who finds themselves suddenly and unexpectedly in charge of one of the largest immigration systems in the world.

The international legal position on this matter is clear. The US must permit entry and afford refuge to anyone it has recognised as a refugee or to whom it has granted asylum. Moreover, it cannot return any person to a country where she or he may suffer torture or other persecution. No ifs, no buts, no qualifications on national security.
...

The article, in it's premise, speaks out of context!... it is simply 'copy' as some of the artists of their own exact world in question might say!

Title: Re: A guide to the Geneva Convention for beginners
Post by AnotherJourneyByTrain on Jan 31st, 2017 at 5:39pm

bogarde73 wrote on Jan 31st, 2017 at 5:30pm:
And neither is the UN for that matter. In fact it has been an irrelevant waste of western taxpayers' money almost since its inception.
But you poor little misguided souls continue wishing on a star if it makes you feel better.

Who is 'you' exactly?


Title: Re: A guide to the Geneva Convention for beginners
Post by longweekend58 on Jan 31st, 2017 at 6:16pm

bogarde73 wrote on Jan 31st, 2017 at 5:30pm:
And neither is the UN for that matter. In fact it has been an irrelevant waste of western taxpayers' money almost since its inception.
But you poor little misguided souls continue wishing on a star if it makes you feel better.


The Geneva convention has been the worlds guidebook on treatment of refugees and prisoners for 60 years and you think it is irrelevant? Do you think torture of prisoners is okay as does your Fuehrer?

Title: Re: A guide to the Geneva Convention for beginners
Post by cods on Jan 31st, 2017 at 8:38pm

bogarde73 wrote on Jan 31st, 2017 at 5:30pm:
And neither is the UN for that matter. In fact it has been an irrelevant waste of western taxpayers' money almost since its inception.
But you poor little misguided souls continue wishing on a star if it makes you feel better.



its seems like our ltard friends think its important we belong.. ::)


belong to WHAT?..

I think belonging to the Salvos would be more beneficial...

do they feed the starving?? not that I recall..

do they clothe those who suffer the  cold .nope!

or house those living in shop doorways..nah!

what about stopping terrorism?.. again unheard of..

in fact I cant think of anything they do do accept cost the world a heap of money....




makes sense to some!.



Title: Re: A guide to the Geneva Convention for beginners
Post by issuevoter on Jan 31st, 2017 at 8:41pm
The Geneva Convention was an interpretation of the post WW2 and Cold War environment. Combatants were supposed to wear uniforms or very clear insignia. Refugees were considered to require asylum on a temporary basis. It was never intended to be a permanent free lunch in the country of their, or the UN's, choice.

The convention never took into account that refugees would become an international money making business, or that the vague cult of Islam would use the convention on refugees, to get its fanatics into the Western World as a fifth column.

The Geneva Convention, and open border policy of multiculturalism is the "Achilles Heel" of the Western World. Conceived with the best of intentions, its greatest value now is to the enemies of those intentions.

Title: Re: A guide to the Geneva Convention for beginners
Post by bogarde73 on Feb 1st, 2017 at 7:08am

issuevoter wrote on Jan 31st, 2017 at 8:41pm:
The Geneva Convention was an interpretation of the post WW2 and Cold War environment. Combatants were supposed to wear uniforms or very clear insignia. Refugees were considered to require asylum on a temporary basis. It was never intended to be a permanent free lunch in the country of their, or the UN's, choice.

The convention never took into account that refugees would become an international money making business, or that the vague cult of Islam would use the convention on refugees, to get its fanatics into the Western World as a fifth column.

The Geneva Convention, and open border policy of multiculturalism is the "Achilles Heel" of the Western World. Conceived with the best of intentions, its greatest value now is to the enemies of those intentions.


Yep all of that is pretty much what I had in mind by "no longer fit for purpose".
I just can't be bothered wasting time & words on the likes of idiot dreamers like mothra or out & out dropkicks like longie.

Title: Re: A guide to the Geneva Convention for beginners
Post by longweekend58 on Feb 1st, 2017 at 9:47am

bogarde73 wrote on Feb 1st, 2017 at 7:08am:

issuevoter wrote on Jan 31st, 2017 at 8:41pm:
The Geneva Convention was an interpretation of the post WW2 and Cold War environment. Combatants were supposed to wear uniforms or very clear insignia. Refugees were considered to require asylum on a temporary basis. It was never intended to be a permanent free lunch in the country of their, or the UN's, choice.

The convention never took into account that refugees would become an international money making business, or that the vague cult of Islam would use the convention on refugees, to get its fanatics into the Western World as a fifth column.

The Geneva Convention, and open border policy of multiculturalism is the "Achilles Heel" of the Western World. Conceived with the best of intentions, its greatest value now is to the enemies of those intentions.


Yep all of that is pretty much what I had in mind by "no longer fit for purpose".
I just can't be bothered wasting time & words on the likes of idiot dreamers like mothra or out & out dropkicks like longie.


And you would replace it with.... that's right folks. NOTHING.  You support torture, imprisonment without charge and all those niceties that this convention opposes.

Title: Re: A guide to the Geneva Convention for beginners
Post by Bojack Horseman on Feb 1st, 2017 at 9:57am
Maybe it is time for a reexamination, I'm not sure.

But you just don't skip your legal obligations because you find them inconvenient or politcally unpalatable.

Title: Re: A guide to the Geneva Convention for beginners
Post by Sprintcyclist on Feb 1st, 2017 at 9:58am

bogarde73 wrote on Feb 1st, 2017 at 7:08am:

issuevoter wrote on Jan 31st, 2017 at 8:41pm:
The Geneva Convention was an interpretation of the post WW2 and Cold War environment. Combatants were supposed to wear uniforms or very clear insignia. Refugees were considered to require asylum on a temporary basis. It was never intended to be a permanent free lunch in the country of their, or the UN's, choice.

The convention never took into account that refugees would become an international money making business, or that the vague cult of Islam would use the convention on refugees, to get its fanatics into the Western World as a fifth column.

The Geneva Convention, and open border policy of multiculturalism is the "Achilles Heel" of the Western World. Conceived with the best of intentions, its greatest value now is to the enemies of those intentions.


Yep all of that is pretty much what I had in mind by "no longer fit for purpose".
I just can't be bothered wasting time & words on the likes of idiot dreamers like mothra or out & out dropkicks like longie.


yes, some countries signed into it many years ago, some did not.

Now countries can sign out of it if it no longer is  apt.

Title: Re: A guide to the Geneva Convention for beginners
Post by aquascoot on Feb 1st, 2017 at 10:18am
Its the economy stupid.

Trump understands the very important principle of personal development

"Dont spend significant time on insignificant things"

Geneva convention and Mrs Merkel...these are insignificant things.

Trump is staying on course, guided soley by his "north star" purpose of "Making america great".

he has strong personal boundaries that dont let little  BS things into his "circle of concerns".

I would hope trump  would not even know what the geneva convention was and i would hope when asked who the leader of germany was he would also be unable to answer.
His "RAM" in his super computer of a brain needs to remain freed up for important issues

Title: Re: A guide to the Geneva Convention for beginners
Post by Bojack Horseman on Feb 1st, 2017 at 10:21am

aquascoot wrote on Feb 1st, 2017 at 10:18am:
Its the economy stupid.

Trump understands the very important principle of personal development

"Dont spend significant time on insignificant things"

Geneva convention and Mrs Merkel...these are insignificant things.

Trump is staying on course, guided soley by his "north star" purpose of "Making america great".

he has strong personal boundaries that dont let little  BS things into his "circle of concerns".

I would hope trump  would not even know what the geneva convention was and i would hope when asked who the leader of germany was he would also be unable to answer.
His "RAM" in his super computer of a brain needs to remain freed up for important issues



Like reading to Brietbart and watching Morning Joe

Title: Re: A guide to the Geneva Convention for beginners
Post by Panther on Feb 1st, 2017 at 10:22am

longweekend58 wrote on Jan 31st, 2017 at 5:23pm:

bogarde73 wrote on Jan 31st, 2017 at 5:07pm:
The Geneva Convention is no longer fit for purpose in current world conditions.


Because it is inconvenient? the entire point of the Geneve Convention is to dictate how we shoudl behave when things ARE difficult. It WW2 taught us anything is that monumental cruelty and inhumanity is only ever just below the surface and we simply MUST prevent it from ever taking root and that starts by having solid RULE AND CONVENTIONS.

Trump already supports torture and openly admitted such. Might change his mind if he were on the receiving end.



Quote:
.....Trump is very clearly disregarding the Geneva Convention in a number of ways through his executive order. However, there is no formal complaint mechanism under the protocol. Though other contracting states can complain in accordance with international treaty law (in effect, complain about a breach of contract), states inevitably favour "softer" options of diplomatic representations and behind-the-scenes negotiations to bring states into line......


So, what they gunna do.....get so angry that they can just spit!?

The U.N. ......... A 'Toothless Tiger' that meets in a building on Manhattan's East Side.....until Trump kicks 'em out via defunding! 
;D ;D


Title: Re: A guide to the Geneva Convention for beginners
Post by longweekend58 on Feb 1st, 2017 at 11:52am

Sprintcyclist wrote on Feb 1st, 2017 at 9:58am:

bogarde73 wrote on Feb 1st, 2017 at 7:08am:

issuevoter wrote on Jan 31st, 2017 at 8:41pm:
The Geneva Convention was an interpretation of the post WW2 and Cold War environment. Combatants were supposed to wear uniforms or very clear insignia. Refugees were considered to require asylum on a temporary basis. It was never intended to be a permanent free lunch in the country of their, or the UN's, choice.

The convention never took into account that refugees would become an international money making business, or that the vague cult of Islam would use the convention on refugees, to get its fanatics into the Western World as a fifth column.

The Geneva Convention, and open border policy of multiculturalism is the "Achilles Heel" of the Western World. Conceived with the best of intentions, its greatest value now is to the enemies of those intentions.


Yep all of that is pretty much what I had in mind by "no longer fit for purpose".
I just can't be bothered wasting time & words on the likes of idiot dreamers like mothra or out & out dropkicks like longie.


yes, some countries signed into it many years ago, some did not.

Now countries can sign out of it if it no longer is  apt.



USA is still a signatory as is every other western nation. We abhor torture and imprisonment without trial and due process.  Trump however, does not. He LIKES torture.

Title: Re: A guide to the Geneva Convention for beginners
Post by longweekend58 on Feb 1st, 2017 at 11:53am

aquascoot wrote on Feb 1st, 2017 at 10:18am:
Its the economy stupid.

Trump understands the very important principle of personal development

"Dont spend significant time on insignificant things"

Geneva convention and Mrs Merkel...these are insignificant things.

Trump is staying on course, guided soley by his "north star" purpose of "Making america great".

he has strong personal boundaries that dont let little  BS things into his "circle of concerns".

I would hope trump  would not even know what the geneva convention was and i would hope when asked who the leader of germany was he would also be unable to answer.
His "RAM" in his super computer of a brain needs to remain freed up for important issues



if you were to be arrested for 'some reason', I'm betting you would be hoping the Geneva convention and due process was still in operation.

The day that human rights are 'insignificant' is the day dictatorships take over - as you seem to wish for.

Title: Re: A guide to the Geneva Convention for beginners
Post by Panther on Feb 2nd, 2017 at 10:33am

longweekend58 wrote on Feb 1st, 2017 at 11:53am:

aquascoot wrote on Feb 1st, 2017 at 10:18am:
Its the economy stupid.

Trump understands the very important principle of personal development

"Dont spend significant time on insignificant things"

Geneva convention and Mrs Merkel...these are insignificant things.

Trump is staying on course, guided soley by his "north star" purpose of "Making america great".

he has strong personal boundaries that dont let little  BS things into his "circle of concerns".

I would hope trump  would not even know what the geneva convention was and i would hope when asked who the leader of germany was he would also be unable to answer.
His "RAM" in his super computer of a brain needs to remain freed up for important issues



if you were to be arrested for 'some reason', I'm betting you would be hoping the Geneva convention and due process was still in operation.

The day that human rights are 'insignificant' is the day dictatorships take over - as you seem to wish for.


Do you actually know what the often cited "Geneva Conventions" actually mean?

If not, & I really don't think you do, read here.....

So, kindly name, with citation, a few atrocities world wide that were successfully prevented by the Geneva Convention.....& regarding those that weren't, how many, with citation, were successfully prosecuted by a world court for not adhering to the Geneva Conventions ( And No, The Nuremberg Trials don't count ;) ).

Toothless Tiger comes to mind....


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