This chaotic and dysfunctional government has stuffed up the Centrelink debt scandal in the worst handling of any government program for decades. Is it time for a Royal Commission?

Centrelink's debt mistake: 'There's no way I could explain to them'

Quote:

When Centrelink’s letter arrived two weeks before Christmas, Michael Griffin instinctively knew he was going to be unfairly trapped. So he meticulously documented, step-by-step, how the system wrongly deemed him to have a $3,197 debt. Griffin’s ordeal began when he received the standardised letter from Centrelink, telling him there was a discrepancy between income information held by the Australian taxation office, and what he had reported fortnightly while claiming the dole in 2013. He was told to go online to his MyGov account to confirm his income details. Griffin originally claimed benefits between February and May in 2013, receiving a total of $3,754 from Centrelink. He reported working small amounts in three fortnights within those months. In two fortnights, he worked 24 hours and earned $618 a fortnight, and in the third he worked 15 hours and earned $386. Griffin has provided payslips to Guardian Australia that clearly show he reported this income accurately. He boosted his working hours in the rest of his year, while not claiming welfare, and ended up with a total income of $26,642 for the 2013-14 financial year. Centrelink’s online system asked him to confirm that he had earned $26,642, which Griffin did. This is where his problems began. Screenshots show how Centrelink’s system then averaged out his $26,000 yearly income across every fortnightly reporting period.

(View article to see screenshots.)

Quote:

It wrongly assumed he had consistently earned $1,021 every fortnight across the year, including between February and May, instead of different amounts in different fortnightly reporting periods. That wrong assumption made him ineligible to claim welfare for that period, and he was told he must repay almost all of the dole he claimed, a total of $3,197.

This problem is quite common.

What's all the fuss about Centrelink reclaiming debts? A summary and a simple example

The cause: Multiple issues.

(1) Centrelink is fraudulently claiming "debts" by attempting to use annual income from the ATO as a basis for calculating a fortnightly income. People are being slapped with fraudulent debt claims accompanied by threats and menaces and given 21 days to respond during the holiday period with a website that is not working. According to the government, this is working as intended.

(2) Data matching that uses company names instead of matching companies by ABN. Any difference in the name and Centrelink assumes they are different employers and there's undeclared income (for example: "PriceWaterhouseCoopers" and "Price Waterhouse Coopers"). A competent system would match by ABN.

The Minister is trying to pretend all is well, but he is lying.

Minister defends Centrelink over welfare debt compliance system

Quote:

Porter defended the system on Tuesday morning, saying it was fair and reasonable, and that only 276 complaints had been received so far. “I think that this is about as reasonable a process as you could possibly derive,” Porter told ABC Radio National. A formal complaint, however, is different from lodging a dispute against a welfare debt. Porter would not say how many disputes had been lodged against welfare debts.

He won't say how many disputes have been received because these figures are likely to be damning.


Quote:

Porter said individuals who disagreed with Centrelink’s notice had plenty of opportunity to contest it.

Oh, really? Sending out these notices a week before Christmas and giving people 21 days to respond at a time when many employers are going to be closed for up to a month? Having a website that crashes repeatedly? This clown is nuts!

The clowns like Tudge and Porter are trying to pretend all is fine, only 1.6% of complaints  etc.

Instead of stepping back when the problems with the data matching appears they are going to “tough it out” and make a humiliating back down mid–Jan. Complete clowns, morons who probably don’t know what data is and certainly have no idea about data matching.

I suspect they will be looking hard at their methods behind the scenes as the pollies are being inundated with complaints apparently.

Not to mention half the people give up after waiting upwards of an hour to get answered on the phone!

So the 1.6% is a lot of Liberal BS

The government knows how bad it is but it's not saying.

---

Centrelink is actively misleading people about keeping records. It could be up for a world of hurt if this ends up in a class action lawsuit.

---

Another of the many stories about this scandal.

---

centrelink is outsourcing everything to tuppy old women intent on castration: the MULTI-YEAR sea ice is melting because oil is being secured through blood to please middleclass tryhards on sojourns to europe once a year for six weeks--> don't forget the detour past the maddddddddddddddd countries losing arms and limbs and notice the lack of tit loss.,... excepting civilians of course  :-[   :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(

It's a disgusting world but Bradd Pitt looks cool today so go Hollyweed and shizzle mcgizzle my mum is uber these days hanging out with my slanderous cousin etc etc etc yadda bugger*N BULLSHITE  :-X

The basic idea is that Australia is living in an economic bubble: it's all fake wealth and centrelink is simply overwhelmed as a natural consequence!

Look at the oldies never retiring: they don't want to look in the mirror and see what they've turned into!


http://nma.gov.au/shared/libraries/images/temporary_exhibitions/behind_the_lines_2006/large/john_howards_australia_large/files/16473/John_Howards_Australia_w480.jpg

this is our famous Public Service you are running down...

you know the one that  crook defends with his life...it is after all only people like you and me..they go in and blindly push a few buttons and it all happens for them..

you have been accused its up to you to prove you are innocent..

if you are getting mixed messages that shouldnt be too hard to prove...


should it???>.

TheFunPolice wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2017 at 5:44pm:

The basic idea is that Australia is living in an economic bubble: it's all fake wealth and centrelink is simply overwhelmed as a natural consequence! Look at the oldies never retiring: they don't want to look in the mirror and see what they've turned into! http://nma.gov.au/shared/libraries/images/temporary_exhibitions/behind_the_lines_2006/large/john_howards_australia_large/files/16473/John_Howards_Australia_w480.jpg

you too might be given the privilege of reaching old age drah..

in case you havent noticed not everyone gets to a ripe old age.. its quite a privilege really...and strangely although the body ages the brain doesnt  again if you are one of the LUCKY ones..

of course if you wish to think AGE is a problem..and its something you hope never happens to you..

well hang in there.....you may get your wish...

cods wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2017 at 5:52pm:

this is our famous Public Service you are running down..

not quite ... this is the fault of the damn politicians.

cods wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2017 at 5:52pm:

this is our famous Public Service you are running down...

They didn't decide to data match the ato with centrelink - the LNP did.

The LNP have royally screwed this!

The LNP are a bunch of luddites - always have been and always will be.

The growing Centrelink  debt scandal

All fixed - that'll be a government consulting fee for bludgeit-it repair....always happy to help out me old mates in politics for a fee..... not that there's anything wrong with that....

Centrelink!  Guaranteed untouched by human hands!

---

Jovial Monk wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2017 at 3:04pm:

The clowns like Tudge and Porter are trying to pretend all is fine, only 1.6% of complaints  etc. Instead of stepping back when the problems with the data matching appears they are going to “tough it out” and make a humiliating back down mid–Jan. Complete clowns, nice people who probably don’t know what data is and certainly have no idea about data matching.

They think data matching is putting a flame to it to hide the truth....


Come on, Centrelink!  COME ON!!  I've got EVERY pay slip on my computer.... emailed to me and stored in a file....

I dare you....

John Smith wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2017 at 6:27pm:

cods wrote on Jan 3rd, 2017 at 5:52pm: this is our famous Public Service you are running down.. not quite ... this is the fault of the damn politicians.

The politicians are the ones who are saying nothing's wrong when it so clearly is dysfunctional. The buck stops with them.

They'll be working on the 'spin' to make it look like the system worked perfectly and without a hiccup, apart from on teensy-weensy little error....

The Minister for Rationalising Pensioners and Unemployed is pleased to announce that the first steps have been taken in guaranteeing services to them, and in reducing the problems that many experienced in the past.  This first step has been remarkably successful, and has removed most of the obstacles to correct service that applicants were forced to suffer through in the past, and has removed the opportunity of a very few to exploit the system and gain unfair advantage (kind of Centrelink 'boat people').  The government assures all honest applicants that, while there have been a few glitches, most such are easily rectified via the correct process, and to date, all have been resolved or will be resolved within fourteen years.  In the meantime, any Social Security recipient with any problem should contact Centrelink for assistance.

(signed)  Fat Hank.

Flip that page. Flip it!

So poo happens?

What you people have never been able to come to grips with throughout your lives is that, if you owe people money, they are usually going to want it back. It's called expecting honest dealing.

If errors occur in this hi-tech world that you all love so much, we all know it takes time to sort it out.
The computer is never wrong is now part of the culture.

The rightwards were all cheering at the prospect of collecting all this debt from these cheating unemployed people. Now we find the truth and it isn't very pretty.

There are cheats involved but it is not the unemployed.

bogarde73 wrote on Jan 4^th, 2017 at 10:05am:

So poo happens?

Poo doesn't happen. it comes out of arseholes.

bogarde73 wrote on Jan 4^th, 2017 at 10:05am:

So poo happens?

I don't recall that attitude what Labor were in government.

bogarde73 wrote on Jan 4^th, 2017 at 10:05am:

So poo happens? What you people have never been able to come to grips with throughout your lives is that, if you owe people money, they are usually going to want it back. It's called expecting honest dealing. If errors occur in this hi-tech world that you all love so much, we all know it takes time to sort it out. The computer is never wrong is now part of the culture.

Are you serious? Anyone with half a brain and any level of knowledge of modern technology knows that computers do make mistakes. They are only as smart as the people who program them and in this case the level of intelligence of the ones designing this is somewhere below Cro-Magnon level.

Who in their right mind would do data matching of company names using string matches of user-entered company names? There's no matching by ABN, no effort to resolve mismatches, no attempt to look up the names in the registry to ascertain if the name is correct.

According to the very poor data matching used, these are all different companies:

Quote:

PriceWaterhouseCoopers PRICEWATERHOUSECOOPERS LEGAL PRICE WATERHOUSE COOPERS PriceWaterhouse Coopers Pricewaterhousecoopers-833468126 PRICE WATERHOUSE COOPERS LEGAL PricewaterhouseCoopers - Australian Firm PricewaterhouseCoopers ACT PRICEWATERHOUSECOOPERS(PWC) PricewaterhouseCoopers.

These are actual names used for this company from government tender records. Some variation of the company name can also be expected in Centrelink systems. It is outrageous that some people are getting "debt" notices for tens of thousands of dollars because the company name in one location or another has a typographical error.

Nobody can offer any sane defence of this practice. It is a very, very obvious error and it must be fixed. I expect anyone who is financially harmed by this is probably going to go after the company that did this in court.

Independent MP Andrew Wilkie has criticised the Federal Government over Centrelink's new debt recovery system, saying it was designed by a "dunderhead"

cods wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2017 at 5:52pm:

this is our famous Public Service you are running down... you know the one that  crook defends with his life...it is after all only people like you and me..they go in and blindly push a few buttons and it all happens for them.. you have been accused its up to you to prove you are innocent.. if you are getting mixed messages that shouldnt be too hard to prove... should it???>.

No one is running down those who work on the front line: a system always wins!

Get a brain  ;D

cods wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2017 at 6:00pm:

TheFunPolice wrote on Jan 3rd, 2017 at 5:44pm: The basic idea is that Australia is living in an economic bubble: it's all fake wealth and centrelink is simply overwhelmed as a natural consequence! Look at the oldies never retiring: they don't want to look in the mirror and see what they've turned into! http://nma.gov.au/shared/libraries/images/temporary_exhibitions/behind_the_lines_2006/large/john_howards_australia_large/files/16473/John_Howards_Australia_w480.jpg you too might be given the privilege of reaching old age drah.. in case you havent noticed not everyone gets to a ripe old age.. its quite a privilege really...and strangely although the body ages the brain doesnt  again if you are one of the LUCKY ones.. of course if you wish to think AGE is a problem..and its something you hope never happens to you.. well hang in there.....you may get your wish...

Don't play the sympathy for the old crusty developer card: it is simply unbecoming  ;D

This is getting beyond a joke.

Autistic man chased by Centrelink debt collector

Quote:

Autism Australia head says her son almost paid $3,000 to a debt recovery firm when he did not owe Centrelink anything A call from a private debt collector was the first 21-year-old Jack Rogerson learned of his $3,000 debt to Centrelink. Rogerson, who is autistic, was confused and unsure of how to explain himself. He began preparing to pay the debt recovery firm Dun & Bradstreet, which has a $10.8m contract with Centrelink to chase down welfare recipients for years-old debts. But before doing so he mentioned the call to his mother, who intervened. Nicole Rogerson, who is the head of Autism Awareness Australia, said finding out that her son was being “heavied” by debt collectors was a huge wake-up call. She fears others with an intellectual disability are at risk of paying money they may not owe. “I’m so concerned for families who are a lot more vulnerable than we are,” she said. “Jack’s at least got two parents and we can work this out for him. It will be horrible having to deal with Centrelink but at least we can do it, and we will because it’s the right thing to do. “This hard line of the government is just heartless to the core.” Her son’s debt related to three months when he was on a disability benefit, just before he began working as a chef’s apprentice. He was not working while claiming from Centrelink during those three months, and his mother said the debt was false, but she and her son were lucky enough to be in a position to fight it. The family’s circumstances appear consistent with others who have complained about Centrelink’s new automated compliance system, which relies on data-matching reported income with information held by the Australian Taxation Office. The system, in some cases, is averaging a person’s yearly income across the 26 Centrelink fortnightly reporting periods, making them ineligible to receive benefits at any point. Centrelink staff appear to be aware of the problem. In an operational webpage providing guidance on what documents are acceptable to verify income, Centrelink says: [quote]If employment is for a part of a year only, averaging over 12 months will not result in a correct result if the customer should have received a full rate at other times of the year.

Dun & Bradstreet is one of three debt collection firms being used by Centrelink. The other two appear to be Probe Group and Australian Receivables, which are both on $2.5m contracts.

The government continues to defend the system. The social services minister, Christian Porter, said on Tuesday it was working “incredibly well” and gave individuals a fair chance to respond when discrepancies were detected.

“What you’re saying to me is that if people over-respond, or if people find it inconvenient, then the response to that from a government should be to not do it,” Porter said.

“Now, if we don’t do it, that is $4bn worth of taxpayers’ money that got wrongfully paid that can never be recouped.

“I think that this is about as reasonable a process as you could possibly derive.”

Other advocates fear that the new system may be particularly difficult for those with a disability.

Advocacy for Inclusion’s chief executive, Christina Ryan, said some people with a disability may not be able to read the letters sent by Centrelink.

“It’s particularly concerning for people who have no real resources on many levels to actually respond,” she said. “And the part that worries me is that this is how people can be bullied into paying a debt that they don’t actually have and causing themselves significant financial hardship.”[/quote]

you can spend the time learning to cook and eat nutritious meals or you can buy pizza and a coke....pizza and coke is the consolation prize for failures.

you can spend the time getting high off surfing or rock climbing or you can take drugs....drugs are the consolation prize for failures.

you can read great books and improve yopur brain or you can durp around watching tv...tv is the consolation prize for failures.

you can learn the skills to be a confident guy, an executor, an alpha male and crush it with women or you can jerk off to porn....porn is the consolation prize for failures.

you can hustle risk, fail, get back up and keep building a business and live with passion or you can go visit centrelink...centrelink is the consolation prize for failures

Somebody do Australia and send Porter to Syria or something...

What a BROWN-NOSING LITTLE SNOT HE IS... to even suggest that torturing poor people is a good thing and a worthy cause.. what a lying little twerp.... another turd in a good suit and overpaid for doing nothing...

If you fools vote this lot back in next time, I promise you, thee will be no mercy on you.

Who The Shaitan is 'Christian Porter' anyway?  Someone's snotty-nosed brat with a silver spoon stuck in his nether regions?

Yep -- another one of those generational dynasty politicians.... with no brains and no guts and no sense or empathy for anything but self.....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Porter

.. and from WA where there is definitely something in the water......

aquascoot wrote on Jan 4^th, 2017 at 2:23pm:

you can spend the time learning to cook and eat nutritious meals or you can buy pizza and a coke....pizza and coke is the consolation prize for failures. you can spend the time getting high off surfing or rock climbing or you can take drugs....drugs are the consolation prize for failures. you can read great books and improve yopur brain or you can durp around watching tv...tv is the consolation prize for failures. you can learn the skills to be a confident guy, an executor, an alpha male and crush it with women or you can jerk off to porn....porn is the consolation prize for failures. you can hustle risk, fail, get back up and keep building a business and live with passion or you can go visit centrelink...centrelink is the consolation prize for failures

Or you can be a born hustler and nobody in a political dynasty family..... with not one other credential to your name.....

How come WA is so over-represented in this Ministry, given its size?  This is like purchasing our Feminist Pills from Sweden with its population of seven million souls half dark the year round and given to intense navel-gazing......

aquascoot wrote on Jan 4^th, 2017 at 2:23pm:

you can spend the time learning to cook and eat nutritious meals or you can buy pizza and a coke....pizza and coke is the consolation prize for failures. you can spend the time getting high off surfing or rock climbing or you can take drugs....drugs are the consolation prize for failures. you can read great books and improve yopur brain or you can durp around watching tv...tv is the consolation prize for failures. you can learn the skills to be a confident guy, an executor, an alpha male and crush it with women or you can jerk off to porn....porn is the consolation prize for failures. you can hustle risk, fail, get back up and keep building a business and live with passion or you can go visit centrelink...centrelink is the consolation prize for failures

https://i.makeagif.com/media/2-23-2014/02umGQ.gif

This is about a person with mental disabilities being hassled by Centrelink because of faulty data matching!

Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM wrote on Jan 4^th, 2017 at 2:30pm:

Somebody do Australia and send Porter to Syria or something... What a BROWN-NOSING LITTLE SNOT HE IS... to even suggest that torturing poor people is a good thing and a worthy cause.. what a lying little twerp.... another turd in a good suit and overpaid for doing nothing... If you fools vote this lot back in next time, I promise you, thee will be no mercy on you. Who The Shaitan is 'Christian Porter' anyway?  Someone's snotty-nosed brat with a silver spoon stuck in his nether regions? Yep -- another one of those generational dynasty politicians.... with no brains and no guts and no sense or empathy for anything but self..... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Porter .. and from WA where there is definitely something in the water......

One word sums up wa: NASTY!

That's about all she wrote.

Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM wrote on Jan 4^th, 2017 at 2:30pm:

Somebody do Australia and send Porter to Syria or something... What a BROWN-NOSING LITTLE SNOT HE IS... to even suggest that torturing poor people is a good thing and a worthy cause.. what a lying little twerp.... another turd in a good suit and overpaid for doing nothing... If you fools vote this lot back in next time, I promise you, thee will be no mercy on you. Who The Shaitan is 'Christian Porter' anyway?  Someone's snotty-nosed brat with a silver spoon stuck in his nether regions? Yep -- another one of those generational dynasty politicians.... with no brains and no guts and no sense or empathy for anything but self..... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Porter .. and from WA where there is definitely something in the water......

One word sums up wa: NASTY!

That's about all she wrote.

An example of the threats and menaces being used by this government. Note the prominent use of the AFP logo. Who authorised that?

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Threats scare people... the cops never come for the sick and they don't need this!

It's simple cruelty and nastiness and the moral law dictates that Churnbull will fry if he doesn't sack this minister!

Centrelink debt nightmare continues - Andrew Wilkie, Independent (Tas)

Quote:

4 Jan, 2017 The Independent Member for Denison, Andrew Wilkie, again called on the Government to put a halt to Centrelink’s flawed debt recovery process. “I’ve now received over a hundred complaints from all around the country from people who have recounted deeply disturbing stories about Centrelink’s new debt recovery process,” Mr Wilkie said. “The Government has terrified countless people, ruined the Christmases of many and even driven some people to contemplate taking their own lives. “This crude data-matching process is spitting out numerous incorrect debt notices. You don’t have to be a genius to tell that taking someone’s yearly income and dividing by 26 is not always going to produce accurate results if only because people’s circumstances change. “The Minister should have personally intervened and put a stop to this program as soon as these issues were discovered. But instead he is in the media claiming that the process is working fine when it obviously isn’t. “Moreover it’s deeply misleading to claim that the program is a success because of the relatively low complaint rate, when this doesn’t take into account the number of disputes or reviews that have been lodged. When questioned about the number of disputes, the Minister refused to answer. “I’m appalled by all this, appalled that the Government has been aware of the problem for many weeks and taken no action and appalled that the Minister is claiming that there are no problems.” Mr Wilkie has written to the Commonwealth Ombudsman asking him to investigate the matter.

Bam wrote on Jan 4^th, 2017 at 5:16pm:

An example of the threats and menaces being used by this government. Note the prominent use of the AFP logo. Who authorised that?

F Ú C K I N G  D I S G U S T I N G!

Jovial Monk wrote on Jan 4^th, 2017 at 5:21pm:

Bam wrote on Jan 4th, 2017 at 5:16pm: An example of the threats and menaces being used by this government. Note the prominent use of the AFP logo. Who authorised that? F Ú C K I N G  D I S G U S T I N G!

Sick people don't need this...

Sick arseholes are imposing this on sick and mentally troubled people who, mostly, don’t owe Centrelink a flipping cent.

Bam wrote on Jan 4^th, 2017 at 5:16pm:

An example of the threats and menaces being used by this government. Note the prominent use of the AFP logo. Who authorised that?

Ah, yes - both the BlackShirts AND the Brownhirts - the SA AND the SS all in one!  Now we're talking Fascism right here in our Canberra backyards.....

Centre link and the AFP - Taskforce integrity ?

They have to be taking the p1ss ?

It looks like they fail their own test.

Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2017 at 10:12pm:

The growing Centrelink  debt scandal All fixed - that'll be a government consulting fee for bludgeit-it repair....always happy to help out me old mates in politics for a fee..... not that there's anything wrong with that.... Centrelink!  Guaranteed untouched by human hands!

has sir Chimp returned?

http://www.ozpolitic.com/album/forum-attachments/Monkeys.jpg

TheFunPolice wrote on Jan 4^th, 2017 at 4:23pm:

Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM wrote on Jan 4th, 2017 at 2:30pm: Somebody do Australia and send Porter to Syria or something... What a BROWN-NOSING LITTLE SNOT HE IS... to even suggest that torturing poor people is a good thing and a worthy cause.. what a lying little twerp.... another turd in a good suit and overpaid for doing nothing... If you fools vote this lot back in next time, I promise you, thee will be no mercy on you. Who The Shaitan is 'Christian Porter' anyway?  Someone's snotty-nosed brat with a silver spoon stuck in his nether regions? Yep -- another one of those generational dynasty politicians.... with no brains and no guts and no sense or empathy for anything but self..... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Porter .. and from WA where there is definitely something in the water...... One word sums up wa: NASTY! That's about all she wrote.

I would add small, narrow-minded, provincial, petty, and lacking in intellect and general intelligence as befits a Banana Republic State that has given us the mega-genius Gina, who managed to inherit $26bn and wind it down to $12bn in a couple of years... and I wonder who is pulling the strings to get all these provincials from WA into the Cabinet?  So far not one of them has made a single positive impact on anything, unless you count The Corrmanator smoking up the joint and raising the greenhouse gases...

Bobby. wrote on Jan 4^th, 2017 at 6:00pm:

Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM wrote on Jan 3rd, 2017 at 10:12pm: The growing Centrelink  debt scandal All fixed - that'll be a government consulting fee for bludgeit-it repair....always happy to help out me old mates in politics for a fee..... not that there's anything wrong with that.... Centrelink!  Guaranteed untouched by human hands! has sir Chimp returned? http://www.ozpolitic.com/album/forum-attachments/Monkeys.jpg

Just a Chimp off the old block, I think......

As Wilkie said today, some dumbferk public servant came up with this ever so obvious stupidly flawed process, and innocent people are being improperly harassed.

this is pathetic behaviour by the libtards.

Dnarever wrote on Jan 4^th, 2017 at 6:00pm:

Centre link and the AFP - Taskforce integrity ? They have to be taking the p1ss ? It looks like they fail their own test.

What kind of lunatic runs around pumping up his ego and thumping his chest over the poorest in the land who may have recently been fortunate enough to get a few hours work a week - and who while on SOCIAL SECURITY benefits are obliged to report every fortnight BEFORE they even get paid, so some errors are inevitable - and have always been discounted in the past if they are only a few bucks - by threatening them with police and other Fascist nonsense.

I seriously think it is time we removed these clowns from Canberra by any means.... they are getting outright dangerous...... totally lost in their own small-minded paranoia about those they've kicked in the guts over work and incomes for years..... crazy as loons...

Since I retired from my last job - well - I KEPT all my pay slips received online in a file.... and sometimes I OVER-estimated income.... never heard them offer to pay it back......  ::)  ::)

Thieving mongrels.... what would Jesus do?  Take a scourge to them and drive them out of the Temple....

Aussie wrote on Jan 4^th, 2017 at 6:07pm:

As Wilkie said today, some dumbferk public servant came up with this ever so obvious stupidly flawed process, and innocent people are being improperly harassed.

Divide the annual amounts involved by 26 and come up with an average - any flea-brain would have to know that was wrong - so this is deliberate policy to roust the poorest in the land.... put the dogs on these scum... it is THEY whom the Feds should be arresting and charging for defrauding the Australian people...

Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM wrote on Jan 4^th, 2017 at 6:10pm:

Aussie wrote on Jan 4th, 2017 at 6:07pm: As Wilkie said today, some dumbferk public servant came up with this ever so obvious stupidly flawed process, and innocent people are being improperly harassed. Divide the annual amounts involved by 26 and come up with an average - any flea-brain would have to know that was wrong - so this is deliberate policy to roust the poorest in the land.... put the dogs on these scum... it is THEY whom the Feds should be arresting and charging for defrauding the Australian people...

They probably outsourced the programming to India - there is a real possibility that the programmers had little idea of what they were doing and how the system works. With reduced staff and insufficient skill to properly test the system it may well have been just normal incompetence.

Pollies get heaps - they are the biggest dole bludgers in Australia
yet they pick on anyone else who gets even a measly $250 per week.

go figure?

Bobby. wrote on Jan 4^th, 2017 at 6:21pm:

Pollies get heaps - they are the biggest dole bludgers in Australia yet they pick on anyone else who gets even a measly $250 per week. go figure?

They rob from the poor, in order to give to themselves.

Do you have an appropriate video for these people, Booby?

Covered tonight on the 7.30 report.

Hopes that crackdown on Centrelink benefits will be overturned

Centrelink defends debt recovery scheme after Andrew Wilkie criticism
They're hardly going to admit the problems now, are they?

Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM wrote on Jan 4^th, 2017 at 6:03pm:

TheFunPolice wrote on Jan 4th, 2017 at 4:23pm: Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM wrote on Jan 4th, 2017 at 2:30pm: Somebody do Australia and send Porter to Syria or something... What a BROWN-NOSING LITTLE SNOT HE IS... to even suggest that torturing poor people is a good thing and a worthy cause.. what a lying little twerp.... another turd in a good suit and overpaid for doing nothing... If you fools vote this lot back in next time, I promise you, thee will be no mercy on you. Who The Shaitan is 'Christian Porter' anyway?  Someone's snotty-nosed brat with a silver spoon stuck in his nether regions? Yep -- another one of those generational dynasty politicians.... with no brains and no guts and no sense or empathy for anything but self..... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Porter .. and from WA where there is definitely something in the water...... One word sums up wa: NASTY! That's about all she wrote. I would add small, narrow-minded, provincial, petty, and lacking in intellect and general intelligence as befits a Banana Republic State that has given us the mega-genius Gina, who managed to inherit $26bn and wind it down to $12bn in a couple of years... and I wonder who is pulling the strings to get all these provincials from WA into the Cabinet?  So far not one of them has made a single positive impact on anything, unless you count The Corrmanator smoking up the joint and raising the greenhouse gases...

All West Australians know c-word family... it's a disgrace over here but maybe it's the isolation!

Aussie wrote on Jan 4^th, 2017 at 6:07pm:

As Wilkie said today, some dumbferk public servant came up with this ever so obvious stupidly flawed process, and innocent people are being improperly harassed.

The brand is the dogwhistle: all c-words!

Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM wrote on Jan 4^th, 2017 at 6:04pm:

Bobby. wrote on Jan 4th, 2017 at 6:00pm: Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM wrote on Jan 3rd, 2017 at 10:12pm: The growing Centrelink  debt scandal All fixed - that'll be a government consulting fee for bludgeit-it repair....always happy to help out me old mates in politics for a fee..... not that there's anything wrong with that.... Centrelink!  Guaranteed untouched by human hands! has sir Chimp returned? http://www.ozpolitic.com/album/forum-attachments/Monkeys.jpg Just a Chimp off the old block, I think......

Yes.

http://www.ozpolitic.com/album/forum-attachments/Monkeys.jpg

All the righties were creaming their pants with the announcement that data matching was going to save $3B from benefits cheats, now we find that in reality the government were using a flawed system to steal from innocent unemployed people. Don't know why anyone would be surprised.

Many of these people have had to pay even though they were innocent there is no way to fight it. This allows the government to falsely claim that the errors are about 1 in 5 when this is BS. It seems to be over 50%, possibly even 1 in 5 the other way.

Basically anyone who got a job was overpaid for that year using this system - all of them, think about it almost certainly more than 1 in 5, maybe 19 in 20.

I DO hope a class action does get taken, this is fraud on a massive scale by the govt.

Jovial Monk wrote on Jan 5^th, 2017 at 8:18am:

I DO hope a class action does get taken, this is fraud on a massive scale by the govt.

The evidence for a class action is very strong. Centrelink's own website "recommends" that pay slips be kept for "six months". It shouldn't be difficult for a lawyer to pin that weak wording on Centrelink and hold them liable.

F F S !

The Centrelink Twitter Account Is Now Referring People To Lifeline


Quote:

As current and former welfare recipients continue to grapple with the latest Centrelink fiasco, the agency has taken to tweeting out the phone number to Lifeline Crisis Support and Suicide Prevention. The Centrelink twitter account shared the Lifeline phone number yesterday while communicating with a user who said he was struggling to find work, and was at risk of being hit with a debt notice due to an error in communication between Centrelink and his university

http://junkee.com/centrelink-twitter-account-now-referring-people-lifeline/93041

Jovial Monk wrote on Jan 5^th, 2017 at 8:52pm:

F F S ! The Centrelink Twitter Account Is Now Referring People To Lifeline Quote: As current and former welfare recipients continue to grapple with the latest Centrelink fiasco, the agency has taken to tweeting out the phone number to Lifeline Crisis Support and Suicide Prevention. The Centrelink twitter account shared the Lifeline phone number yesterday while communicating with a user who said he was struggling to find work, and was at risk of being hit with a debt notice due to an error in communication between Centrelink and his university http://junkee.com/centrelink-twitter-account-now-referring-people-lifeline/93041

Yeas, I saw that earlier.  Mitigation of damages.  Arse tin plating.....too late.  I hope they get the arse sued off them.  Plain straight out negligence.   Breach of duty of care to the neighbour.  Harm done.  Winner.

Jovial Monk wrote on Jan 5^th, 2017 at 8:52pm:

F F S ! The Centrelink Twitter Account Is Now Referring People To Lifeline Quote: As current and former welfare recipients continue to grapple with the latest Centrelink fiasco, the agency has taken to tweeting out the phone number to Lifeline Crisis Support and Suicide Prevention. The Centrelink twitter account shared the Lifeline phone number yesterday while communicating with a user who said he was struggling to find work, and was at risk of being hit with a debt notice due to an error in communication between Centrelink and his university http://junkee.com/centrelink-twitter-account-now-referring-people-lifeline/93041

If any organisation feels the need to refer people to Lifeline as a result of the organisation's own actions, that is a tacit admission that they know they are causing harm. They will have an interesting time in the inevitable Royal Commission.

You know it's a scandal when even the MSM are calling it one.

Centrelink debt letter scandal worsens (nine.com.au)

Quote:

Centrelink is threatening dozens of Australians with bad credit ratings and legal action if they refuse to sign up to payment plans to repay thousands of dollars in questionable debt. The government agency has been under fire in recent days amid claims hundreds of Australians have been issued sizable debt notices they dispute. More than 60 people contacted nine.com.au today claiming they were being hounded by Centrelink. Many shared horror stories of being "pressured" and left "scared" after receiving letters and SMSs demanding money. Amounts of “debt” sought by Centrelink ranged from $800 to upwards of $25,000 – a combined total of more than $200,000 among those who contacted nine.com.au. Many who queried the repayment demands were told by Centrelink they would have to sign up to a payment plan even if their claim was under review, in the hope of a refund at a later time. One individual who said he contacted Centrelink to ask for a review of his claim alleges he was threatened with a "black mark against his name" if he didn't pay up. "I was advised by the Centrelink debt recovery team that if I don't set up a payment scheme it will go to debt collectors … and I won't be able to get a home loan because of it," he said. "This has forced me to set up a debt recovery payment to Centrelink as that is the last thing I need. I have been told that they are so inundated that it could be up to a month or more until someone qualified is able to look at my case through the review process." A single mum, who was sent a debt letter for more than $2000 in mid-December and told she has to pay the amount in full by mid-January, has signed up for the payment plan as she feels she has no other choice. A former TAFE student who is challenging his claim said debt collecting company The Probe Group pressed him on whether he would pay. Probe gave him two weeks before they would send his case back to Centrelink. He claims he was told if this was to happen, Centrelink "may take me to court for the debt, or garnish my wages until it is paid off". “I agreed to nothing until the debt was proven. So I have two weeks to respond before they send it back to Centrelink who may take me to court for the debt.” A mother of a young son, who was slugged with owing $5400 from Youth Allowance he claimed back in 2014, claims she was told she could appeal if she provided the evidence of her son's previous work group certificates by January 7. In response to direct questions on the allegations levelled against Centrelink, representatives of the government agency provided nine.com.au with a written statement. It said Centrelink was "confident in the online compliance system, and associated checking process that we go through with recipients". "The online compliance intervention system doesn’t automate debt recovery – it is a system which automates part of the standard compliance review process. While the new online compliance system automates part of this process, it does not change how income is assessed or how debts are calculated - it is an easy way to confirm details and resolve any outstanding matters. "When data differences are detected, the system generates a letter (this is not a debt letter) advising people of the difference and asking them to either confirm or update their details online using myGov. These are not debt letters and at this stage of the process no debt has been raised." The statement continued by saying 72 percent of people who received an online compliance letter since September 2016 have completely resolved the matter. "Only 2.2 per cent of customers were requested to supply supporting documentation, which means 97.8 per cent of customers did not need to supply supporting documentation," the statement said. "The department is determined to ensure that people get what they are entitled to, nothing more, nothing less."

“not a debt letter” BULLDUST!

This really is disgusting.

Centrelink crisis 'cataclysmic' says PM's former head of digital transformation

Quote:

The man handpicked by Malcolm Turnbull to head the government’s digital transformation has said the error rate in Centrelink’s data-matching process is so unfathomably high that it would send a commercial enterprise out of business. Paul Shetler, the former digital transformation office head, criticised the government’s response to its latest IT crisis, telling Guardian Australia it was symptomatic of a culture of blame aversion within the bureaucracy. “It is literally blame aversion, it is not risk aversion,” Shetler said. “They’re trying to avoid the blame, and they’re trying to cast it wide. “The justifications that have been given I think are just another example of the culture of ‘good news’, reporting only good news up through the bureaucracy. “I’m sure that the bureaucracy was being told at every single level that everything was OK. “That’s how it works in the bureaucracy. Bad news is not welcomed, and when bad news comes, they try to shift the blame.” It is the first time Shetler, formerly the government’s chief digital officer and a former chief digital officer for the UK ministry of justice , has broken his silence on the series of IT failures that have plagued the government in recent months: the census debacle, the failure of the Australian Tax Office systems and now Centrelink’s debt recovery problems. Shetler resigned in November after being hired by Turnbull to transform the government’s approach to digital technology. He said it was difficult for him to watch successive IT failures, which he described as “cataclysmic” and “not a crisis of IT” but a “crisis of government”. “I said when I came in that this would be happening, I said this was already happening, I said it was unacceptable and I made that case the entire time I was at the DTO [digital transformation office], and the DTA [digital transformation agency],” he said. “I was very explicit about it internally, not nearly as much so externally. It was a fight that I fought from day one, not an easy fight to win, because you’ve got an entire bureaucracy of IT bureaucrats who are backed by large vendors, who have large numbers of staff, and because ministers, I’m going out on a limb here, very quickly become captive to the departments that they deal with.” Shetler said the consequences of the failures of the Centrelink system were different from problems with the census or the ATO because they were felt by those least able to deal with it. He said data-matching systems must have human oversight to deal with mistakes. “The way they did it, obviously it’s dangerous, because their algorithms are flawed in the first place,” Shetler said. “Secondly, you have to be careful with data. Much of the data that’s in the federal government, how good is it really? There is this sort of a blind faith in data.”

(continued)

Quote:

The government has continued to deny any problem with its automated compliance system, which relies on data-matching income reported to Centrelink with tax office records. It confirmed it developed the data matching software in-house, rather than buying it from a private vendor. The software has been used for data-matching operations for several years, raising questions about what the government knew of its potential flaws before using it for such high-volume debt recovery. “As with all new software, rigorous testing has been carried out by the department to ensure the system is working as intended,” department general manager Hank Jongen, effectively head of communications, said. The department said individuals were given ample opportunity to contest the discrepancies, and that 80% of those who received a letter had paid the money back. Shetler said a 20% error rate would be unacceptable in any other industry. “All I can say is, if they were a commercial company, you would go out of business, with a 20% failure rate, a known 20% failure rate, you would go out of business, any other kind of matching service would,” he said. “Come on. Could you imagine the stock exchange doing that? Could you imagine Amazon, Apple or a bank doing that? An insurance company doing that? “It’s just unfathomable, and yet government thinks it can do that. “This is the real problem. Government needs to be less arrogant. You’ve got senior public servants there who are drawing private sector salaries, but they’re not holding themselves to the same standard.” Shetler identified a series of problems that could be immediately addressed. He said it should start with building capability and upskilling across all areas of the public service. A “radical” upgrade of IT skills was needed, he said, starting from the top levels of the public service. That would include ensuring only technically proficient executives were placed in senior IT leadership roles. Public servants should be increasingly placed in front of real users, so they can see the impacts of their decisions and systems on the ground. Shetler said the current Centrelink situation had exposed a gap between government policy and service delivery. That divergence must be addressed, he said. “Policy is not just something you dream up on a piece of paper,” he said. “It’s actually also the results that you see on the streets.”

it's ludicrous that the govt. doesn't temporarily put a stop to these letters and iron out the bugs in the system. It's letting it's ego get in the way of common sense. They're gonna lose a lot of votes with this crap.

John Smith wrote on Jan 6^th, 2017 at 8:32am:

it's ludicrous that the govt. doesn't temporarily put a stop to these letters and iron out the bugs in the system. It's letting it's ego get in the way of common sense. They're gonna lose a lot of votes with this crap.

What about Jobs & Growth?

Instead of kicking people without a job in the face -
find them a job.

Turnbull is hopeless.

Bobby. wrote on Jan 6^th, 2017 at 8:39am:

What about Jobs & Growth?

takes more than a 3 word phrase to create jobs ... turdball hasn't a clue how to go about it.

On a closely-related topic, let's make it clear that the reasons why these so-called "debts" exist at all is that the system is designed to fail, and it is very heavily slanted against the disadvantaged.

1. Anyone who works has to enter the amount earned for the current week, including in some cases shifts that have not even been worked yet, and in almost all cases before payslips are available. Mistakes are inevitable.
2. If they understate the amount of their pay, this creates a "debt" that only has to be asserted by Centrelink once every six years for that debt to be claimable indefinitely with no statute of limitations. Yet Centrelink only "recommends" that pay slips be retained for "six months". That's why it isn't a coincidence that most of these fraudulent "debts" are mostly from about five years ago.
3. If they overstate their pay, they only have three months at most to correct this before their right to claim is extinguished. This is the great injustice - claims one way are indefinite, claims the other are extinguished after three months. Now imagine the stink if the ATO did that.
4. Anyone who makes a mistake (which happens all the time, see #1) is expected to correct it. Yet the Centrelink web site doesn't actually remind people to do this. This extra paperwork is completely unnecessary. The system should be set up so it only asked for work details ending the previous week instead of the current week.

John Smith wrote on Jan 6^th, 2017 at 8:41am:

Bobby. wrote on Jan 6th, 2017 at 8:39am: What about Jobs & Growth? takes more than a 3 word phrase to create jobs ... turdball hasn't a clue how to go about it.

Turnbull hasn't got a clue what to do.

Bobby. wrote on Jan 6^th, 2017 at 8:39am:

John Smith wrote on Jan 6th, 2017 at 8:32am: it's ludicrous that the govt. doesn't temporarily put a stop to these letters and iron out the bugs in the system. It's letting it's ego get in the way of common sense. They're gonna lose a lot of votes with this crap. What about Jobs & Growth? Instead of kicking people without a job in the face - find them a job. Turnbull is hopeless.

Jobs & Growth?

One of the Liberals most successful policies.

Quote:

“The complaint rate is running at 0.16 per cent ... only 276 complaints out of 169,000 letters and that process has raised $300 million worth of money back to the taxpayer,” he told ABC Radio on Tuesday. The federal government is looking to claw back $4 billion in overpayments. Mr Porter characterised the letters as polite.

Bobby. wrote on Jan 6^th, 2017 at 11:06am:

John Smith wrote on Jan 6th, 2017 at 8:41am: Bobby. wrote on Jan 6th, 2017 at 8:39am: What about Jobs & Growth? takes more than a 3 word phrase to create jobs ... turdball hasn't a clue how to go about it. Turnbull hasn't got a clue what to do.

No true he knows exactly what he will do.

President Elect, The Mechanic wrote on Jan 6^th, 2017 at 11:33am:

Quote: “The complaint rate is running at 0.16 per cent ... only 276 complaints out of 169,000 letters and that process has raised $300 million worth of money back to the taxpayer,” he told ABC Radio on Tuesday. The federal government is looking to claw back $4 billion in overpayments. Mr Porter characterised the letters as polite.

Would that be because the majority of people are asking for re assessment and not lodging complaints yet.

Dnarever wrote on Jan 6^th, 2017 at 11:34am:

Bobby. wrote on Jan 6th, 2017 at 11:06am: John Smith wrote on Jan 6th, 2017 at 8:41am: Bobby. wrote on Jan 6th, 2017 at 8:39am: What about Jobs & Growth? takes more than a 3 word phrase to create jobs ... turdball hasn't a clue how to go about it. Turnbull hasn't got a clue what to do. Not true - he knows exactly what he will do.

He's going to crush the unemployed

using them as scapegoats for the mess he's created.

Centrelink’s debt recovery failures referred to auditor general by Labor
This scandal is getting worse and worse for the government.

BEWARE PLEASE:
As similarly Dun and Bradstreet is doing the same with method of speculative invoicing sent to Australian Businesses - - with the most aggressive letters DEMANDING payment of a non-existent legal debts acting for Getty Images, for supposed copyright infringement And, a recent federal court case says this is deceptive and misleading plus unconscionable conduct under the Australian Consumer Law Act. Sections 18 , 21, and other laws. Search  "Dallas Buyers Club " at  austlii  for reported cases 

The same applies to this CentreLink issue in the media as of January 2017

President Elect, The Mechanic wrote on Jan 6^th, 2017 at 11:33am:

Quote: “The complaint rate is running at 0.16 per cent ... only 276 complaints out of 169,000 letters and that process has raised $300 million worth of money back to the taxpayer,” he told ABC Radio on Tuesday. The federal government is looking to claw back $4 billion in overpayments. Mr Porter characterised the letters as polite.

Porter is a clown if he thinks he's doing a good job. The voters in his seat will let him know otherwise at the next election. He holds the Division of Pearce (WA) by a margin of 3.5% and the Liberals are strongly on the nose in WA at the moment. He's committing electoral suicide with his gross incompetence.

He's going by the complaint rate? Really? He's being wilfully misleading. Not everyone goes to the trouble of making a formal complaint. A more accurate figure is that 20% of people who received this nasty mail over the Christmas people will not be paying anything, and a much higher percentage (actual figures unknown at this stage) will have their "debt" reduced.

Porter is going to have a very difficult year.

Bam wrote on Jan 6^th, 2017 at 12:40pm:

President Elect, The Mechanic wrote on Jan 6th, 2017 at 11:33am: Quote: “The complaint rate is running at 0.16 per cent ... only 276 complaints out of 169,000 letters and that process has raised $300 million worth of money back to the taxpayer,” he told ABC Radio on Tuesday. The federal government is looking to claw back $4 billion in overpayments. Mr Porter characterised the letters as polite. Porter is a clown if he thinks he's doing a good job. The voters in his seat will let him know otherwise at the next election. He holds the Division of Pearce (WA) by a margin of 3.5% and the Liberals are strongly on the nose in WA at the moment. He's committing electoral suicide with his gross incompetence. He's going by the complaint rate? Really? He's being wilfully misleading. Not everyone goes to the trouble of making a formal complaint. A more accurate figure is that 20% of people who received this nasty mail over the Christmas people will not be paying anything, and a much higher percentage (actual figures unknown at this stage) will have their "debt" reduced. Porter is going to have a very difficult year.

It's a screw-up like only Centerlink could create.  The core problem is that it is AUTOMATED rather than being a system that flags a PROBABLE debt for a person to follow up on.

You knew it was going to be a balls up as soon as Libs touched it

Quite true, longie - such a system should throw up a 'probable' not an immediately actionable, cast-iron 'debt'.  Obviously there are insufficient staff to actually handle the system.

Pollies take the responsibility, a concept foreign to the current bunch of clowns.

Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM wrote on Jan 6^th, 2017 at 1:03pm:

Quite true, longie - such a system should throw up a 'probable' not an immediately actionable, cast-iron 'debt'.  Obviously there are insufficient staff to actually handle the system.

exactly. And that has been a perennial problem. If centrelink routinely has phone queues of two hours then clearly they are woefully understaff. and it is a bipartisan problem. One of Rudds first actions was to sack 2000 centrelink staff. Hasnt that worked out well??

Now even News Limited - no friends of the unemployed - are saying Centrelink's system has problems and for the government to admit it.

Although the automated system is a problem, the majority of those complaining are thieves who have been caught out.  They are using the errors in the system to claim a victim status they do not deserve.

Belgarion wrote on Jan 6^th, 2017 at 3:28pm:

Although the automated system is a problem, the majority of those complaining are thieves who have been caught out.  They are using the errors in the system to claim a victim status they do not deserve.

That isn't true, and you've got no evidence to prove this.

If you read this thread, you'll find many examples where "debts" have been calculated by Centrelink incorrectly, in direct violation of social security law and the Department's own guidelines. Because it has broken the law and misled people, Centrelink isn't likely to prevail if it's sued in a class action lawsuit.

Belgarion wrote on Jan 6^th, 2017 at 3:28pm:

Although the automated system is a problem, the majority of those complaining are thieves who have been caught out.  They are using the errors in the system to claim a victim status they do not deserve.

bullshit they are thieves ... the majority most likely made honest mistakes. The only thieves are the politicians.

WHy doesn't the govt. put this much effort into stopping politicians from rorting taxpayers with dodgy claims?

Bam wrote on Jan 6^th, 2017 at 4:02pm:

Belgarion wrote on Jan 6th, 2017 at 3:28pm: Although the automated system is a problem, the majority of those complaining are thieves who have been caught out.  They are using the errors in the system to claim a victim status they do not deserve. That isn't true, and you've got no evidence to prove this. If you read this thread, you'll find many examples where "debts" have been calculated by Centrelink incorrectly, in direct violation of social security law and the Department's own guidelines. Because it has broken the law and misled people, Centrelink isn't likely to prevail if it's sued in a class action lawsuit.

You overstep the mark. It is true that Centrelink has stuffed up in a number of cases, but that is not ILLEGAl and no lawsuit would ever work.

John Smith wrote on Jan 6^th, 2017 at 4:13pm:

Belgarion wrote on Jan 6th, 2017 at 3:28pm: Although the automated system is a problem, the majority of those complaining are thieves who have been caught out.  They are using the errors in the system to claim a victim status they do not deserve. bullshit they are thieves ... the majority most likely made honest mistakes. The only thieves are the politicians. WHy doesn't the govt. put this much effort into stopping politicians from rorting taxpayers with dodgy claims?

They've gotten hundreds of millions back in over-payments already. The problem is that the system over-reaches and does not effectively and accurately calculate people working for PART of a year.

No, the data matching is crap and that is beyond clear now so continuing with it is negligence or worse.

longweekend58 wrote on Jan 6^th, 2017 at 4:24pm:

Bam wrote on Jan 6th, 2017 at 4:02pm: Belgarion wrote on Jan 6th, 2017 at 3:28pm: Although the automated system is a problem, the majority of those complaining are thieves who have been caught out.  They are using the errors in the system to claim a victim status they do not deserve. That isn't true, and you've got no evidence to prove this. If you read this thread, you'll find many examples where "debts" have been calculated by Centrelink incorrectly, in direct violation of social security law and the Department's own guidelines. Because it has broken the law and misled people, Centrelink isn't likely to prevail if it's sued in a class action lawsuit. You overstep the mark. It is true that Centrelink has stuffed up in a number of cases, but that is not ILLEGAl and no lawsuit would ever work.

It is illegal because social security law mandates fortnightly reporting but Centrelink is now disregarding that by calculating on annual income only. There are other laws in relation to the collection of debts and consumer law that is also been breached. If you think Centrelink aren't breaking the law, you're wilfully ignoring the facts.

longweekend58 wrote on Jan 6^th, 2017 at 4:25pm:

They've gotten hundreds of millions back in over-payments already

that doesn't mean they are thieves.

When they ask you to tell them how much you will earn this week or this year, you take a guess ... you won't know the exact figure until you've actually been paid, and by then it's to late, the form has been submitted. Have you tried calling them to let them know there is an adjustment? If the answer the phone within two hours you should buy yourself a lottery ticket.

I personally refuse to 'take guesses' and tell them to wait until I've finished my tax return at the end of the year for any allowances i might be able to claim.  They then back pay me anything they owe me. If they owe me nothing, no one whinges. Least of all me

However that is not an option when one is unemployed or underemployed and reliant on the payments to get by day to day.

Bam wrote on Jan 6^th, 2017 at 4:37pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Jan 6th, 2017 at 4:24pm: Bam wrote on Jan 6th, 2017 at 4:02pm: Belgarion wrote on Jan 6th, 2017 at 3:28pm: Although the automated system is a problem, the majority of those complaining are thieves who have been caught out.  They are using the errors in the system to claim a victim status they do not deserve. That isn't true, and you've got no evidence to prove this. If you read this thread, you'll find many examples where "debts" have been calculated by Centrelink incorrectly, in direct violation of social security law and the Department's own guidelines. Because it has broken the law and misled people, Centrelink isn't likely to prevail if it's sued in a class action lawsuit. You overstep the mark. It is true that Centrelink has stuffed up in a number of cases, but that is not ILLEGAl and no lawsuit would ever work. It is illegal because social security law mandates fortnightly reporting but Centrelink is now disregarding that by calculating on annual income only. There are other laws in relation to the collection of debts and consumer law that is also been breached. If you think Centrelink aren't breaking the law, you're wilfully ignoring the facts.

You will find that social security REGULATIONS mandate such reporting. You are using the term 'law' incorrectly and impractically. There is zero case for a class action. Firstly, the number of errors - while pitiful - is still a small percentage and the errors are still no egregious but incompetent. If every company were to be sued for incompetence then the biggest industry around would be civil lawyers.

There is a big difference in being WRONG and being illegal.

The Liberals are having a great time aren't they , one week ripping off pensioners and the next it is the unemployed.

No way they will try to get the wealthy or the multinationals to pay their tax.

People try to argue that the Liberals are not really like that but the proof is in the pudding. It is what they do - every time.

John Smith wrote on Jan 6^th, 2017 at 4:41pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Jan 6th, 2017 at 4:25pm: They've gotten hundreds of millions back in over-payments already that doesn't mean they are thieves. When they ask you to tell them how much you will earn this week or this year, you take a guess ... you won't know the exact figure until you've actually been paid, and by then it's to late, the form has been submitted. Have you tried calling them to let them know there is an adjustment? If the answer the phone within two hours you should buy yourself a lottery ticket. I personally refuse to 'take guesses' and tell them to wait until I've finished my tax return at the end of the year for any allowances i might be able to claim.  They then back pay me anything they owe me. If they owe me nothing, no one whinges. Least of all me However that is not an option when one is unemployed or underemployed and reliant on the payments to get by day to day.

It is still an OVER-payment and the majority have in fact, paid it back.

AS for 2 hours on queue.... I had to ring iinet today because they lost my credit card details. the queue was FIVE HOURS. I used the callback facility.

Worst ever was when ATO referred a debt of mine to Dunn and BRadstreet incorrectly. The 'callback' took THREE DAYS. The reason of course was because the ATO stuffed up about 100,000 tax files and then send them all to debt collection incorrectly. And this was done during the labor years - not that it should matter, but it does to the partisans here.

Dnarever wrote on Jan 6^th, 2017 at 5:00pm:

The Liberals are having a great time aren't they , one week ripping off pensioners and the next it is the unemployed. No way they will try to get the wealthy or the multinationals to pay their tax. People try to argue that the Liberals are not really like that but the proof is in the pudding. It is what they do - every time.

99% of these people have genuiely been overpaid wither by error or false claims.  Is that a problem to you?

Bobby. wrote on Jan 6^th, 2017 at 12:07pm:

Dnarever wrote on Jan 6th, 2017 at 11:34am: Bobby. wrote on Jan 6th, 2017 at 11:06am: John Smith wrote on Jan 6th, 2017 at 8:41am: Bobby. wrote on Jan 6th, 2017 at 8:39am: What about Jobs & Growth? takes more than a 3 word phrase to create jobs ... turdball hasn't a clue how to go about it. Turnbull hasn't got a clue what to do. Not true - he knows exactly what he will do. He's going to crush the unemployed using them as scapegoats for the mess he's created.

I was going to just say nothing as usual.

longweekend58 wrote on Jan 6^th, 2017 at 5:01pm:

It is still an OVER-payment and the majority have in fact, paid it back.

no one said it wasn't an over payment ... I said that it didn't make them a thief. Let me know when you learn the meaning of the two words.

and I'd bet a fair portion of those that paid it back, paid it back because they didn't want to risk a fight with centrelink and not because they actually owed it

longweekend58 wrote on Jan 6^th, 2017 at 4:25pm:

They've gotten hundreds of millions back in over-payments already.

Bullshit. That's just the amount they've sent out. Most of these will be reduced, many of them to nothing or almost nothing.

Bam wrote on Jan 6^th, 2017 at 5:06pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Jan 6th, 2017 at 4:25pm: They've gotten hundreds of millions back in over-payments already. Bullshit. That's just the amount they've sent out. Most of these will be reduced, many of them to nothing or almost nothing.

In a press conference/release yesterday they said they had already received around $300M in back payments.  I am no fan of Centrelink and this is a pitiful example of their incompetence, but they are still largely correct in these notices. The scandal is about the rather obviously wrong ones that they are sending out.

longweekend58 wrote on Jan 6^th, 2017 at 4:55pm:

Bam wrote on Jan 6th, 2017 at 4:37pm: longweekend58 wrote on Jan 6th, 2017 at 4:24pm: Bam wrote on Jan 6th, 2017 at 4:02pm: Belgarion wrote on Jan 6th, 2017 at 3:28pm: Although the automated system is a problem, the majority of those complaining are thieves who have been caught out.  They are using the errors in the system to claim a victim status they do not deserve. That isn't true, and you've got no evidence to prove this. If you read this thread, you'll find many examples where "debts" have been calculated by Centrelink incorrectly, in direct violation of social security law and the Department's own guidelines. Because it has broken the law and misled people, Centrelink isn't likely to prevail if it's sued in a class action lawsuit. You overstep the mark. It is true that Centrelink has stuffed up in a number of cases, but that is not ILLEGAl and no lawsuit would ever work. It is illegal because social security law mandates fortnightly reporting but Centrelink is now disregarding that by calculating on annual income only. There are other laws in relation to the collection of debts and consumer law that is also been breached. If you think Centrelink aren't breaking the law, you're wilfully ignoring the facts. You will find that social security REGULATIONS mandate such reporting. You are using the term 'law' incorrectly and impractically. There is zero case for a class action. Firstly, the number of errors - while pitiful - is still a small percentage and the errors are still no egregious but incompetent. If every company were to be sued for incompetence then the biggest industry around would be civil lawyers. There is a big difference in being WRONG and being illegal.

Yeah, you keep believing that your beloved Liberals could not possibly balls up something this badly.

Out in the real world though, Centrelink are acting outside the law thanks to a poorly-implemented matching system (income support is calculated fortnightly, not annually) and they have been misleading people for years. A Centrelink website that only "recommends" that people keep payslips for "six months" is not something that will indemnify Centrelink in the event of a lawsuit. If you can't figure this out you're either not particularly bright or your unwarranted idolisation of your beloved Liberals is blinding you to the truth.

The DAILY TELEGRAPH is on their case now. The fscking DAILY TELEGRAPH. If that's not enough to convince you that there's a problem you're hopeless.

longweekend58 wrote on Jan 6^th, 2017 at 5:08pm:

Bam wrote on Jan 6th, 2017 at 5:06pm: longweekend58 wrote on Jan 6th, 2017 at 4:25pm: They've gotten hundreds of millions back in over-payments already. Bullshit. That's just the amount they've sent out. Most of these will be reduced, many of them to nothing or almost nothing. In a press conference/release yesterday they said they had already received around $300M in back payments.

And you believe them - seriously?

No bill here, just nice helpings of taxpayers money in my account every fortnight.  :)

longweekend58 wrote on Jan 6^th, 2017 at 4:24pm:

Bam wrote on Jan 6th, 2017 at 4:02pm: Belgarion wrote on Jan 6th, 2017 at 3:28pm: Although the automated system is a problem, the majority of those complaining are thieves who have been caught out.  They are using the errors in the system to claim a victim status they do not deserve. That isn't true, and you've got no evidence to prove this. If you read this thread, you'll find many examples where "debts" have been calculated by Centrelink incorrectly, in direct violation of social security law and the Department's own guidelines. Because it has broken the law and misled people, Centrelink isn't likely to prevail if it's sued in a class action lawsuit. You overstep the mark. It is true that Centrelink has stuffed up in a number of cases, but that is not ILLEGAl and no lawsuit would ever work.

They are bullying people to take out loans to pay debts that do not exist ?

People are being referred to debt collectors and black listed when there is no debt ?

They are advising people to call the life line.

One question is putting this system into use and refusing to fix it or take it off line with the known problems constitute criminal negligence ?

What impact does acknowledging that you have put people at risk in advising the life line support because of a system that should never have got into operation with the significant flaws it has.

A team of 13 year olds used to test this system would have found the problems. It is difficult to call this just incompetence, there seems to be a genuine component of negligence.

Now where do we stand with a failed system and Centrelink and the government being too pig headed to do anything about it.

IMO the government and centrelink continuing with this system knowing the flaws is dishonest and malicious.

Centrelink sending out debt notices where they don't really know if there is a debt is more than problematic. You can not ask people to pay because you think they might owe you something.

Then they put the burden of proof on the customer to prove that they don't owe the money, they are basically sending people a bill for a debt they do not owe and then leaving it to the customer to prove the case for them.

I would think a group action would stand a very good chance, forcing people to pay money they do not owe I would call extortion.

A government department threatening people intimidating them to force them to pay a debt they don't owe is also not good enough.

In my view there should be a full enquiry into this it really is disgraceful. 

longweekend58 wrote on Jan 6^th, 2017 at 5:08pm:

Bam wrote on Jan 6th, 2017 at 5:06pm: longweekend58 wrote on Jan 6th, 2017 at 4:25pm: They've gotten hundreds of millions back in over-payments already. Bullshit. That's just the amount they've sent out. Most of these will be reduced, many of them to nothing or almost nothing. In a press conference/release yesterday they said they had already received around $300M in back payments.  I am no fan of Centrelink and this is a pitiful example of their incompetence, but they are still largely correct in these notices. The scandal is about the rather obviously wrong ones that they are sending out.

So you're trusting a "Press conference" from someone desperately trying to cover their arses? Who was giving that conference?

You do realise that the embattled Minister Porter (who's going to lose his marginal seat in 2019) has been emphasising number of complaints for a reason? Number of complaints are meaningless. Why not discuss number of debts paid, number of appeals and the like? He's painting a deliberately false picture.

As far as the Turnbull government is concerned, they have just jumped the shark. This is going to be as damaging to them as the "pink batts" scheme was to Labor. What must be understood - and pay close attention to this - is that many of the people who are targeted are people who were working for part of that year and claiming benefits for part of the year, entirely legally, because that's how income support works. Many of them have jobs now. That demographic is likely to have a significant number of swinging voters. These swinging voters will be exacting punishment at the next election.

Goodbye, Turnbull government. Two years and three months to go... Tick, tick, tick.

longweekend58 wrote on Jan 6^th, 2017 at 5:08pm:

Bam wrote on Jan 6th, 2017 at 5:06pm: longweekend58 wrote on Jan 6th, 2017 at 4:25pm: They've gotten hundreds of millions back in over-payments already. Bullshit. That's just the amount they've sent out. Most of these will be reduced, many of them to nothing or almost nothing. In a press conference/release yesterday they said they had already received around $300M in back payments.  I am no fan of Centrelink and this is a pitiful example of their incompetence, but they are still largely correct in these notices. The scandal is about the rather obviously wrong ones that they are sending out.

they had already received around $300M in back payments


They are taking money out of peoples pay irrespective of if they actually owe any money.

greggerypeccary wrote on Jan 6^th, 2017 at 5:26pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Jan 6th, 2017 at 5:08pm: Bam wrote on Jan 6th, 2017 at 5:06pm: longweekend58 wrote on Jan 6th, 2017 at 4:25pm: They've gotten hundreds of millions back in over-payments already. Bullshit. That's just the amount they've sent out. Most of these will be reduced, many of them to nothing or almost nothing. In a press conference/release yesterday they said they had already received around $300M in back payments.  And you believe them - seriously?

Why would I not? I know you have trouble accepting evidence not to your liking but there would be no motivation (or ability) to lie. No one is defending the stuffup. Just giving you some extra information that apparently you dont like. How Trumpish of you.

longweekend58 wrote on Jan 6^th, 2017 at 5:36pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Jan 6th, 2017 at 5:26pm: longweekend58 wrote on Jan 6th, 2017 at 5:08pm: Bam wrote on Jan 6th, 2017 at 5:06pm: longweekend58 wrote on Jan 6th, 2017 at 4:25pm: They've gotten hundreds of millions back in over-payments already. Bullshit. That's just the amount they've sent out. Most of these will be reduced, many of them to nothing or almost nothing. In a press conference/release yesterday they said they had already received around $300M in back payments.  And you believe them - seriously? Why would I not?

The coalition is full of liars.

They have a track record of lying to cover up their lies.


Quote:

I know you have trouble accepting evidence not to your liking but there would be no motivation (or ability) to lie.

They are the worst, most incompetent government this nation has ever seen.

They need to start appearing to be actually doing something.

Of course they have the motivation to lie.

I'm calling 100% bullshit on their claim: they have not "already received around $300M in back payments".

If you think they have, the onus is on you to provide the proof.

Over to you ...

Dnarever wrote on Jan 6^th, 2017 at 5:36pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Jan 6th, 2017 at 5:08pm: Bam wrote on Jan 6th, 2017 at 5:06pm: longweekend58 wrote on Jan 6th, 2017 at 4:25pm: They've gotten hundreds of millions back in over-payments already. Bullshit. That's just the amount they've sent out. Most of these will be reduced, many of them to nothing or almost nothing. In a press conference/release yesterday they said they had already received around $300M in back payments.  I am no fan of Centrelink and this is a pitiful example of their incompetence, but they are still largely correct in these notices. The scandal is about the rather obviously wrong ones that they are sending out. they had already received around $300M in back payments They are taking money out of peoples pay irrespective of if they actually owe any money.

actually, they are not.  Garnering wages requires a bit more than a clerk simply asking for it to happen. Child support is garnered out of wages - when ordered. Some court ordered bankruptcy payments can also be thus. and so can centrelink AFTER all recovery actions have failed and a court grants it.

You might not know but all of these debts are for people not currently receiving centrelink. Those people are already paying from their existing payments.

greggerypeccary wrote on Jan 6^th, 2017 at 5:42pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Jan 6th, 2017 at 5:36pm: greggerypeccary wrote on Jan 6th, 2017 at 5:26pm: longweekend58 wrote on Jan 6th, 2017 at 5:08pm: Bam wrote on Jan 6th, 2017 at 5:06pm: longweekend58 wrote on Jan 6th, 2017 at 4:25pm: They've gotten hundreds of millions back in over-payments already. Bullshit. That's just the amount they've sent out. Most of these will be reduced, many of them to nothing or almost nothing. In a press conference/release yesterday they said they had already received around $300M in back payments.  And you believe them - seriously? Why would I not?  The coalition is full of liars. They have a track record of lying to cover up their lies. Quote: I know you have trouble accepting evidence not to your liking but there would be no motivation (or ability) to lie. They are the worst, most incompetent government this nation has ever seen. They need to start appearing to be actually doing something. Of course they have the motivation to lie. I'm calling 100% bullshit on their claim: they have not "already received around $300M in back payments". If you think they have, the onus is on you to provide the proof. Over to you ...

You just spent the last two months whining about Donald Trump and his lies and about how his idiot supporters believed anything that suited their personal beliefs. And then you do exactly the same thing.

That is why you demand that I provide proof.. not that it was claimed but that it was true... from my position as Minister of Social Services or the OMbudsman or head of Centrelink.

Trumpoid...

longweekend58 wrote on Jan 6^th, 2017 at 5:48pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Jan 6th, 2017 at 5:42pm: longweekend58 wrote on Jan 6th, 2017 at 5:36pm: greggerypeccary wrote on Jan 6th, 2017 at 5:26pm: longweekend58 wrote on Jan 6th, 2017 at 5:08pm: Bam wrote on Jan 6th, 2017 at 5:06pm: longweekend58 wrote on Jan 6th, 2017 at 4:25pm: They've gotten hundreds of millions back in over-payments already. Bullshit. That's just the amount they've sent out. Most of these will be reduced, many of them to nothing or almost nothing. In a press conference/release yesterday they said they had already received around $300M in back payments.  And you believe them - seriously? Why would I not?  The coalition is full of liars. They have a track record of lying to cover up their lies. Quote: I know you have trouble accepting evidence not to your liking but there would be no motivation (or ability) to lie. They are the worst, most incompetent government this nation has ever seen. They need to start appearing to be actually doing something. Of course they have the motivation to lie. I'm calling 100% bullshit on their claim: they have not "already received around $300M in back payments". If you think they have, the onus is on you to provide the proof. Over to you ... You just spent the last two months whining about Donald Trump and his lies and about how his idiot supporters believed anything that suited their personal beliefs. And then you do exactly the same thing.

What are you smoking, Longy.

You're the one who believes the government - not me.

So, where's your proof?

I'm calling bullshit on their claim.

If you say it's true, the onus is on you to provide the proof.

Bam wrote on Jan 6^th, 2017 at 4:02pm:

Belgarion wrote on Jan 6th, 2017 at 3:28pm: Although the automated system is a problem, the majority of those complaining are thieves who have been caught out.  They are using the errors in the system to claim a victim status they do not deserve. That isn't true, and you've got no evidence to prove this. If you read this thread, you'll find many examples where "debts" have been calculated by Centrelink incorrectly, in direct violation of social security law and the Department's own guidelines. Because it has broken the law and misled people, Centrelink isn't likely to prevail if it's sued in a class action lawsuit.

No evidence? I was aware of this problem a couple of years ago because I know someone who was involved in exposing fraudulent claimants in the child care industry.  Although the automated system is not working as it should, it is catching more crooks than innocent people.

John Smith wrote on Jan 6^th, 2017 at 4:13pm:

Belgarion wrote on Jan 6th, 2017 at 3:28pm: Although the automated system is a problem, the majority of those complaining are thieves who have been caught out.  They are using the errors in the system to claim a victim status they do not deserve. bullshit they are thieves ... the majority most likely made honest mistakes. The only thieves are the politicians. WHy doesn't the govt. put this much effort into stopping politicians from rorting taxpayers with dodgy claims?

See above.....mistakes are made, but there are also those deliberately working the system.  The politicians rorts are despicable, but are a separate issue.

longweekend58 wrote on Jan 6^th, 2017 at 5:46pm:

Dnarever wrote on Jan 6th, 2017 at 5:36pm: longweekend58 wrote on Jan 6th, 2017 at 5:08pm: Bam wrote on Jan 6th, 2017 at 5:06pm: longweekend58 wrote on Jan 6th, 2017 at 4:25pm: They've gotten hundreds of millions back in over-payments already. Bullshit. That's just the amount they've sent out. Most of these will be reduced, many of them to nothing or almost nothing. In a press conference/release yesterday they said they had already received around $300M in back payments.  I am no fan of Centrelink and this is a pitiful example of their incompetence, but they are still largely correct in these notices. The scandal is about the rather obviously wrong ones that they are sending out. they had already received around $300M in back payments They are taking money out of peoples pay irrespective of if they actually owe any money. actually, they are not.  Garnering wages requires a bit more than a clerk simply asking for it to happen. Child support is garnered out of wages - when ordered. Some court ordered bankruptcy payments can also be thus. and so can centrelink AFTER all recovery actions have failed and a court grants it. You might not know but all of these debts are for people not currently receiving centrelink. Those people are already paying from their existing payments.

Longy, in his lovable childlike way says “garnering” but grownups know the word as “garnishee.”

longweekend58 wrote on Jan 6^th, 2017 at 5:46pm:

Dnarever wrote on Jan 6th, 2017 at 5:36pm: longweekend58 wrote on Jan 6th, 2017 at 5:08pm: Bam wrote on Jan 6th, 2017 at 5:06pm: longweekend58 wrote on Jan 6th, 2017 at 4:25pm: They've gotten hundreds of millions back in over-payments already. Bullshit. That's just the amount they've sent out. Most of these will be reduced, many of them to nothing or almost nothing. In a press conference/release yesterday they said they had already received around $300M in back payments.  I am no fan of Centrelink and this is a pitiful example of their incompetence, but they are still largely correct in these notices. The scandal is about the rather obviously wrong ones that they are sending out. they had already received around $300M in back payments They are taking money out of peoples pay irrespective of if they actually owe any money. actually, they are not.  Garnering wages requires a bit more than a clerk simply asking for it to happen. Child support is garnered out of wages - when ordered. Some court ordered bankruptcy payments can also be thus. and so can centrelink AFTER all recovery actions have failed and a court grants it. You might not know but all of these debts are for people not currently receiving centrelink. Those people are already paying from their existing payments.

You're making up crap again. You have no evidence to support this.

Also, Centrelink is a government department, not a payment. This is a mistake that is often made by people with a poor grasp of facts.

Belgarion wrote on Jan 6^th, 2017 at 5:52pm:

Bam wrote on Jan 6th, 2017 at 4:02pm: Belgarion wrote on Jan 6th, 2017 at 3:28pm: Although the automated system is a problem, the majority of those complaining are thieves who have been caught out.  They are using the errors in the system to claim a victim status they do not deserve. That isn't true, and you've got no evidence to prove this. If you read this thread, you'll find many examples where "debts" have been calculated by Centrelink incorrectly, in direct violation of social security law and the Department's own guidelines. Because it has broken the law and misled people, Centrelink isn't likely to prevail if it's sued in a class action lawsuit. No evidence? I was aware of this problem a couple of years ago because I know someone who was involved in exposing fraudulent claimants in the child care industry.  Although the automated system is not working as it should, it is catching more crooks than innocent people.

Anecdotes aren't evidence. That's fallacious. You need to provide links, not anecdotes.

You're also asserting it's catching more crooks than innocent people. Again, this is a claim you're making with no evidence.

Nobody is defending crooks. There's a huge fuss - including in the Murdoch press - precisely because a lot of people caught up in this aren't crooks.

Jovial Monk wrote on Jan 6^th, 2017 at 6:01pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Jan 6th, 2017 at 5:46pm: Dnarever wrote on Jan 6th, 2017 at 5:36pm: longweekend58 wrote on Jan 6th, 2017 at 5:08pm: Bam wrote on Jan 6th, 2017 at 5:06pm: longweekend58 wrote on Jan 6th, 2017 at 4:25pm: They've gotten hundreds of millions back in over-payments already. Bullshit. That's just the amount they've sent out. Most of these will be reduced, many of them to nothing or almost nothing. In a press conference/release yesterday they said they had already received around $300M in back payments.  I am no fan of Centrelink and this is a pitiful example of their incompetence, but they are still largely correct in these notices. The scandal is about the rather obviously wrong ones that they are sending out. they had already received around $300M in back payments They are taking money out of peoples pay irrespective of if they actually owe any money. actually, they are not.  Garnering wages requires a bit more than a clerk simply asking for it to happen. Child support is garnered out of wages - when ordered. Some court ordered bankruptcy payments can also be thus. and so can centrelink AFTER all recovery actions have failed and a court grants it. You might not know but all of these debts are for people not currently receiving centrelink. Those people are already paying from their existing payments. Longy, in his lovable childlike way says “garnering” but grownups know the word as “garnishee.”

Your english is atrocious.

Bam wrote on Jan 6^th, 2017 at 6:15pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Jan 6th, 2017 at 5:46pm: Dnarever wrote on Jan 6th, 2017 at 5:36pm: longweekend58 wrote on Jan 6th, 2017 at 5:08pm: Bam wrote on Jan 6th, 2017 at 5:06pm: longweekend58 wrote on Jan 6th, 2017 at 4:25pm: They've gotten hundreds of millions back in over-payments already. Bullshit. That's just the amount they've sent out. Most of these will be reduced, many of them to nothing or almost nothing. In a press conference/release yesterday they said they had already received around $300M in back payments.  I am no fan of Centrelink and this is a pitiful example of their incompetence, but they are still largely correct in these notices. The scandal is about the rather obviously wrong ones that they are sending out. they had already received around $300M in back payments They are taking money out of peoples pay irrespective of if they actually owe any money. actually, they are not.  Garnering wages requires a bit more than a clerk simply asking for it to happen. Child support is garnered out of wages - when ordered. Some court ordered bankruptcy payments can also be thus. and so can centrelink AFTER all recovery actions have failed and a court grants it. You might not know but all of these debts are for people not currently receiving centrelink. Those people are already paying from their existing payments. You're making up crap again. You have no evidence to support this. Also, Centrelink is a government department, not a payment. This is a mistake that is often made by people with a poor grasp of facts.

You mean when ever the media etc refer to people 'receiving centrelink' they dont know that the difference? Or anyone else for that matter, pedant?

Go garnering.

longweekend58 wrote on Jan 6^th, 2017 at 8:05pm:

Bam wrote on Jan 6th, 2017 at 6:15pm: longweekend58 wrote on Jan 6th, 2017 at 5:46pm: Dnarever wrote on Jan 6th, 2017 at 5:36pm: longweekend58 wrote on Jan 6th, 2017 at 5:08pm: Bam wrote on Jan 6th, 2017 at 5:06pm: longweekend58 wrote on Jan 6th, 2017 at 4:25pm: They've gotten hundreds of millions back in over-payments already. Bullshit. That's just the amount they've sent out. Most of these will be reduced, many of them to nothing or almost nothing. In a press conference/release yesterday they said they had already received around $300M in back payments.  I am no fan of Centrelink and this is a pitiful example of their incompetence, but they are still largely correct in these notices. The scandal is about the rather obviously wrong ones that they are sending out. they had already received around $300M in back payments They are taking money out of peoples pay irrespective of if they actually owe any money. actually, they are not.  Garnering wages requires a bit more than a clerk simply asking for it to happen. Child support is garnered out of wages - when ordered. Some court ordered bankruptcy payments can also be thus. and so can centrelink AFTER all recovery actions have failed and a court grants it. You might not know but all of these debts are for people not currently receiving centrelink. Those people are already paying from their existing payments. You're making up crap again. You have no evidence to support this. Also, Centrelink is a government department, not a payment. This is a mistake that is often made by people with a poor grasp of facts. You mean when ever the media etc refer to people 'receiving centrelink' they dont know that the difference? Or anyone else for that matter, pedant?

Pedantry ... the last accusation of the terminally incorrect.

Centrelink debts slashed after welfare recipients speak out in media

Quote:

Key points: * Two welfare recipients had their Centrelink debts cut after speaking out on 7.30 * George Birkett had his debt of more than $7,000 wiped clean * Amanda Stilbe had her debt slashed from $1,338.07 to $497.03 * Labor wants the audit office to investigate the scheme Centrelink has slashed the debts of two welfare recipients after they spoke out about the Federal Government's controversial $4.5 billion debt clawback program. Amanda Stilbe and George Birkett spoke to 7.30 on Wednesday about letters from Centrelink accusing them of underreporting their income while receiving benefits. Ms Stilbe received a call from a Centrelink representative around 8:00pm (AEDT) on Wednesday, just minutes after the program finished, informing her that her debt had been reduced from $1,338.07 to $497.03. "He said that an employee had entered some data incorrectly so he got them to do a manual recalculation," she said. "He even gave me a direct number to call him on if I had any more questions. There [is] no way this would have happened if I hadn't spoken out in the media." Ms Stilbe said she intended to dispute the remaining debt. 'The debt had been wiped' The Federal Government and Centrelink have been faced with a massive backlash over the automated system that has been used to match welfare recipients' reported income. Since July last year, Centrelink has sent debt notices to almost 170,000 Australians it says have underreported their pay. Mr Birkett was sent a debt of more than $7,000 after Centrelink determined that reimbursements he received for travel costs as part of his job should have been reported as income. But Mr Birkett's debt was wiped today, two days after he spoke to 7.30. "I rang them with some information that I had been given by Victorian Legal Aid, and by the time I got through to the compliance unit they said it had all been sorted out and the debt had been wiped," he said. "And they said that the money they had already started deducting from my pension to pay the debt would be reimbursed some time in the next two days." Labor calls for investigation Speaking to 7.30 on Wednesday, Social Services Minister Christian Porter defended the debt recovery program. "The debt has been raised against the individuals in question because they failed to respond to the initial notice requesting information," he said. "We are under an obligation to the taxpayer to check when a difference is highlighted between reporting to the ATO and reporting to Centrelink which is correct, and if you don't respond to that request for information inside the 21-day period, then a debt may be raised against you." Ms Stilbe said she was "furious" after watching Mr Porter's comments. "That was unbelievable," she said. "I got in touch with Centrelink two days after my initial notice and told them my income for the year which they were asking about. But it didn't change anything because they only asked about my total income for the year, not how much I was earning every fortnight." Welfare groups and community lawyers have urged the Government to put the program on hold and investigate whether a glitch in the system resulted in people being sent incorrect debt notices. Labor's human services spokesperson, Linda Burney, has written to the Australian National Audit Office asking them to investigate the program. "The number of complaints to my office and my colleagues' offices has been overwhelming," her letter said. "There is considerable public concern over the administration of this program as well as a lack of clarity around the value of 'savings' derived from the program to date." The Department of Human Services has been contacted for comment.

So we have Centrelink raising a debt of over $7000 by double dipping a portion of someone's income, which is wiped completely when he complained. Another person having about $800 removed because some drone in the Centrelink bureaucracy made an error.

Just how common are these errors?

Page flip....

Bam wrote on Jan 6^th, 2017 at 6:26pm:

Belgarion wrote on Jan 6th, 2017 at 5:52pm: Bam wrote on Jan 6th, 2017 at 4:02pm: Belgarion wrote on Jan 6th, 2017 at 3:28pm: Although the automated system is a problem, the majority of those complaining are thieves who have been caught out.  They are using the errors in the system to claim a victim status they do not deserve. That isn't true, and you've got no evidence to prove this. If you read this thread, you'll find many examples where "debts" have been calculated by Centrelink incorrectly, in direct violation of social security law and the Department's own guidelines. Because it has broken the law and misled people, Centrelink isn't likely to prevail if it's sued in a class action lawsuit. No evidence? I was aware of this problem a couple of years ago because I know someone who was involved in exposing fraudulent claimants in the child care industry.  Although the automated system is not working as it should, it is catching more crooks than innocent people. Anecdotes aren't evidence. That's fallacious. You need to provide links, not anecdotes. You're also asserting it's catching more crooks than innocent people. Again, this is a claim you're making with no evidence. Nobody is defending crooks. There's a huge fuss - including in the Murdoch press - precisely because a lot of people caught up in this aren't crooks.

Links?...Do you really think my source, who I have known and trusted for a very long time, posts in confidence information on the net?  ::) But what evidence do you have apart from a few articles in the media?  You seem awfully ready to believe whatever you read on the internet....... ::)

Belgarion wrote on Jan 6^th, 2017 at 9:56pm:

Bam wrote on Jan 6th, 2017 at 6:26pm: Belgarion wrote on Jan 6th, 2017 at 5:52pm: Bam wrote on Jan 6th, 2017 at 4:02pm: Belgarion wrote on Jan 6th, 2017 at 3:28pm: Although the automated system is a problem, the majority of those complaining are thieves who have been caught out.  They are using the errors in the system to claim a victim status they do not deserve. That isn't true, and you've got no evidence to prove this. If you read this thread, you'll find many examples where "debts" have been calculated by Centrelink incorrectly, in direct violation of social security law and the Department's own guidelines. Because it has broken the law and misled people, Centrelink isn't likely to prevail if it's sued in a class action lawsuit. No evidence? I was aware of this problem a couple of years ago because I know someone who was involved in exposing fraudulent claimants in the child care industry.  Although the automated system is not working as it should, it is catching more crooks than innocent people. Anecdotes aren't evidence. That's fallacious. You need to provide links, not anecdotes. You're also asserting it's catching more crooks than innocent people. Again, this is a claim you're making with no evidence. Nobody is defending crooks. There's a huge fuss - including in the Murdoch press - precisely because a lot of people caught up in this aren't crooks. Links?...Do you really think my source, who I have known and trusted for a very long time, posts in confidence information on the net?  ::) But what evidence do you have apart from a few articles in the media?  You seem awfully ready to believe whatever you read on the internet....... ::)

So you've got no proof then. Thought so. I don't give a fsck about who your "source" is. If they haven't the balls to put their name to it, they aren't much of a source.

Next time you post unfounded bullshit, consider that you WILL be called on it.

Do you really think Centrelink's systems are error-free? Hmm? So why are so many people having debts reduced or completely eliminated when they start questioning them?

An Indigenous elder claims Centrelink cleared her of nearly $8000 debt after she said she would take her case to the Ombudsman’s Office

Quote:

Ngarrindjeri elder Elaine Kropinyeri from Mount Gambier in South Australia told SBS News Centrelink had recently cleared her of a $7800 debt, citing an “internal mistake”. Ms Elaine Kropiyeri said she had not worked for two-and-a-half years after she resigned for “personal reasons” as a cultural consultant at a local foster care service in Mount Gambier, and successfully applied for Centrelink’s NewStart Allowance. She said she discovered the so-called debt after Centrelink informed her she had been overpaid, in a separate matter, by $600. According to Ms Kropiyeri, Centrelink did not explain how the overpayment had been calculated, but deducted $464 from her regular payments towards the debt. “It was absolutely terrifying…when you’re on a very meagre income, barely surviving,” she said. Ms Kropiyeri found the $7800 in an obscure area of her MyGov Centrelink online account while trying to understand her debt notice. This figure, according to Ms Kropiyeri, didn't appear in the usual 'deductions' section. “They didn’t even send me a letter,” she said. “If I didn't accidentally come across it the way I did, they would still be deducting from my meagre income.” Subsequently, Ms Kropiyeri received a statement on November 29 confirming her fears that the larger sum was in fact owing. With the notice showing $7154.52 was still to be repaid, she was able to work out Centrelink had been deducting part of her payment without her knowledge for this larger debt. Centrelink has been under fire this week over its debt recovery process. There have been reports of welfare recipients receiving debt recovery letters over the past month, in some cases over contested debts. Social Services Minister Christian Porter confirmed on Tuesday 169,000 “polite” debt letters had been distributed by an automated system. The Labor Party has criticised the system as flawed. “This is a crude and inaccurate approach with data matching… we think it should stop,” Labor’s acting human services spokesman Doug Cameron told ABC radio last week. It is part of the federal government’s attempt to retrieve $4 billion in overpayments. When Ms Kropiyeri enquired to Centrelink over the phone about the disputed amount owing, she said the staff member could not explain it. “I am still unsure how this [debt] came to be because, as I said, I hadn't worked and did my reporting every fortnight.” She was referred to a specialists team where a staff member said the onus was on her to explain the debt to Centrelink. “But it’s [their] department that determines what overpayments that need to be distributed - I don’t have access to their computers.” Because she was sure she did not owe any amount, she said she told Centrelink she would take her case to the Ombudsman's Office and ended the phone call. Within half an hour they called her back to tell her the debt had been waived because of an “internal mistake”. “I know my rights, so I stood up, tooth and nail, to them.” On Wednesday, independent federal member for Denison Andrew Wilkie MP called the Commonwealth Ombudsman to investigate the system. "This is terrifying people, and we've got a government who is saying there is no problem," he told reporters in Hobart on Wednesday. "I've had four people now approach me... who I would describe as presenting as suicidal." He cited a case of a woman who said Centrelink told her she owed $69,000. When she enquired into it, the service said in fact she owed it $3000 but could not provide her with a reason why. A spokesperson from the Ombudsman’s Office told SBS News that it was aware about the issue brought to its attention by Mr Wilkie and was seeking further information from Centrelink. They added that the office would not comment further at this time.

Note these in particular:


Quote:

When Ms Kropiyeri enquired to Centrelink over the phone about the disputed amount owing, she said the staff member could not explain it.

Quote:

He cited a case of a woman who said Centrelink told her she owed $69,000. When she enquired into it, the service said in fact she owed it $3000 but could not provide her with a reason why.

So there are "debts" that cannot even be explained? Who in their right mind would accept claims for debts of thousands of dollars without an explanation as to what these debts are or how they were incurred?

ALHR slams unethical behaviour of Centrelink as abuse of legal process (Australian Lawyers for Human Rights, alhr.org.au)

Quote:

MEDIA RELEASE For immediate release – 4 January 2017 The current attacks upon past and present pension payment recipients by Centrelink and the Minister for Social Services are “wrong at so many legal levels that it’s hard to know where to begin,”, ALHR President Benedict Coyne said. “At the most basic level, no entity should be issuing legal demands for money unless they are absolutely certain the money is owed and can substantiate this in court. It is for the creditor to prove any debt. It is also up to the creditor to ensure the alleged debtor receives the repayment demand. It is entirely wrong for Centrelink to put alleged debts in the hands of debt recovery agents when the debts are not proved and/or the alleged debtor never received the original claim, or to claim interest or process fees on money that is very probably not owing at all.” “The whole procedure is quite unethical and a complete abuse of legal process,” he said “In this case it appears clear from numerous reports that the computer software the Minister is relying on is flawed. Legally, it is for Centrelink as purported creditor to substantiate its calculations, not for individuals as alleged debtors to prove that Centrelink is wrong. But of course Centrelink threatens to cut off recipients if they don’t pay, putting them in a terrifying situation. This could well be described as ‘demanding money with menaces.’” “It is also clear that Centrelink has made minimal efforts either to check its calculations, despite having the ability to cross check information with Tax Office records, or to track down current addresses of alleged debtors.” “The situation is even worse in that Centrelink is targeting individuals with minimal resources who may be in particularly vulnerable situations, including asylum seekers and people with disabilities. According to a recent news article, asylum seekers have been reminded in their debt notices that ‘an outstanding debt to the commonwealth can affect future visa grants and/or re-entry into Australia.’ The repercussions, therefore, could be dire.” Further, Centrelink is refusing to provide any means by which individuals or their solicitors can readily contact a human being at Centrelink to do what Centrelink is [wrongly] demanding, which is to prove that the individuals don’t owe the money being claimed. This refusal on the part of Centrelink to facilitate normal methods of contact enormously exacerbates the emotional stress of those targetted and again indicates unethical behaviour and an abuse of process.” “ALHR believes that the behaviour of Centrelink and the Social Services Minister involves numerous breaches of the human rights of those being targeted for alleged debts, contrary to Australia’s international law obligations. Under the Universal Declaration of Human Rights the following rights are being breached: * to be treated with dignity (Preamble, Article 1) * to the protection of the rule of law (that there must be proper laws, a legal system that allows appeal against government decisions, and the laws of the country must be properly enforced) (Preamble) and the related right to freedom from attacks upon one’s reputation (Article 12) * to non-discrimination on the basis of property (or lack of it, the persons being targeted being those who have received a government payment)(Preamble, Article 2) * to equal protection of the law without discrimination (Article 7) * not to be arbitrarily deprived of property (Article 17) * to equal access to the public service (Article 21) * to social security (Article 9 of the International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights, ICESCR, which is binding on Australia) * to protection against unemployment and to have employment income supplemented ‘if necessary, by other means of social protection’ (Article 23) * to an adequate standard of living, including the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond one’s control (Article 25) “ALHR calls on the Minister to immediately halt the operation of the current process and to refund, with interest, all moneys incorrectly claimed by Centrelink.” To arrange an interview with [Benedict Coyne], please contact Matt Mitchell on 0431 980 365 or media@alhr.org.au Need Help? Thousands of people all over Australia are receiving intimidating letters from Centrelink, many of which are falsely claiming debts are owed. If you have received one, or know someone who has, consider your options before paying. Our friends at Victoria Legal Aid have prepared something to help: https://www.legalaid.vic.gov.au/find-legal-answers/centrelink/get-help

Belgarion wrote on Jan 6^th, 2017 at 9:56pm:

Bam wrote on Jan 6th, 2017 at 6:26pm: Belgarion wrote on Jan 6th, 2017 at 5:52pm: Bam wrote on Jan 6th, 2017 at 4:02pm: Belgarion wrote on Jan 6th, 2017 at 3:28pm: Although the automated system is a problem, the majority of those complaining are thieves who have been caught out.  They are using the errors in the system to claim a victim status they do not deserve. That isn't true, and you've got no evidence to prove this. If you read this thread, you'll find many examples where "debts" have been calculated by Centrelink incorrectly, in direct violation of social security law and the Department's own guidelines. Because it has broken the law and misled people, Centrelink isn't likely to prevail if it's sued in a class action lawsuit. No evidence? I was aware of this problem a couple of years ago because I know someone who was involved in exposing fraudulent claimants in the child care industry.  Although the automated system is not working as it should, it is catching more crooks than innocent people. Anecdotes aren't evidence. That's fallacious. You need to provide links, not anecdotes. You're also asserting it's catching more crooks than innocent people. Again, this is a claim you're making with no evidence. Nobody is defending crooks. There's a huge fuss - including in the Murdoch press - precisely because a lot of people caught up in this aren't crooks. Links?...Do you really think my source, who I have known and trusted for a very long time, posts in confidence information on the net?  ::) But what evidence do you have apart from a few articles in the media?  You seem awfully ready to believe whatever you read on the internet....... ::)

Of course not - just blathers it out to every Tom, Dick and Harry within earshot... another gutless wonder.  When my cousin's husband was working as a clerk of a court, he once muttered darkly about the terrible things he saw - never saw a damned one of them.... all he did was shuffle paper.

Point is - it's a real ego booster to come along and say how many of these nasty thieving bastards you are catching... Look At Me!

What does your source smoke, BTW?

Bam wrote on Jan 6^th, 2017 at 10:31pm:

.............. So you've got no proof then. Thought so. I don't give a fsck about who your "source" is. If they haven't the balls to put their name to it, they aren't much of a source. Next time you post unfounded bullshit, consider that you WILL be called on it. Do you really think Centrelink's systems are error-free? Hmm? So why are so many people having debts reduced or completely eliminated when they start questioning them?

I accept your irrational and emotive outburst as an acknowledgement of your lack of reasoned argument.

longweekend58 wrote on Jan 6^th, 2017 at 5:02pm:

Dnarever wrote on Jan 6th, 2017 at 5:00pm: The Liberals are having a great time aren't they , one week ripping off pensioners and the next it is the unemployed. No way they will try to get the wealthy or the multinationals to pay their tax. People try to argue that the Liberals are not really like that but the proof is in the pudding. It is what they do - every time. 99% of these people have genuiely been overpaid wither by error or false claims.  Is that a problem to you?

You understand that one of the major parts of the problem is the algorithm which is averaging total earnings over 12 months and dividing by the number of weeks to determine average income. People are saying that this is true.

Obviously this means that every single person who was on benefits and got a job would have an average weekly income higher than is allowable.

Virtually every single unemployed person who got a job must fall victim to this fault with very few exceptions. You sure about that 99% figure that was pulled from the 7th planet. It would in fact be closer to 99% the other way.

Belgarion wrote on Jan 6^th, 2017 at 9:56pm:

Bam wrote on Jan 6th, 2017 at 6:26pm: Belgarion wrote on Jan 6th, 2017 at 5:52pm: Bam wrote on Jan 6th, 2017 at 4:02pm: Belgarion wrote on Jan 6th, 2017 at 3:28pm: Although the automated system is a problem, the majority of those complaining are thieves who have been caught out.  They are using the errors in the system to claim a victim status they do not deserve. That isn't true, and you've got no evidence to prove this. If you read this thread, you'll find many examples where "debts" have been calculated by Centrelink incorrectly, in direct violation of social security law and the Department's own guidelines. Because it has broken the law and misled people, Centrelink isn't likely to prevail if it's sued in a class action lawsuit. No evidence? I was aware of this problem a couple of years ago because I know someone who was involved in exposing fraudulent claimants in the child care industry.  Although the automated system is not working as it should, it is catching more crooks than innocent people. Anecdotes aren't evidence. That's fallacious. You need to provide links, not anecdotes. You're also asserting it's catching more crooks than innocent people. Again, this is a claim you're making with no evidence. Nobody is defending crooks. There's a huge fuss - including in the Murdoch press - precisely because a lot of people caught up in this aren't crooks. Links?...Do you really think my source, who I have known and trusted for a very long time, posts in confidence information on the net?  ::) But what evidence do you have apart from a few articles in the media?  You seem awfully ready to believe whatever you read on the internet....... ::)

Even if your source exists in the real world chances are that she does not really know and is defending her position and or employer.

The Liberal government has panicked and lashed out wildly and irrationally with the Centrelink welfare payment claw-back.

What this portends is that the government perceives that there is looming spike in welfare payments that it is seeking to mitigate by spreading fear.

Dnarever wrote on Jan 7^th, 2017 at 8:50am:

longweekend58 wrote on Jan 6th, 2017 at 5:02pm: Dnarever wrote on Jan 6th, 2017 at 5:00pm: The Liberals are having a great time aren't they , one week ripping off pensioners and the next it is the unemployed. No way they will try to get the wealthy or the multinationals to pay their tax. People try to argue that the Liberals are not really like that but the proof is in the pudding. It is what they do - every time. 99% of these people have genuiely been overpaid wither by error or false claims.  Is that a problem to you? You understand that one of the major parts of the problem is the algorithm which is averaging total earnings over 12 months and dividing by the number of weeks to determine average income. People are saying that this is true. Obviously thins means that every single person who was on benefits and got a job would have an average weekly income higher than is allowable. Virtually every single unemployed person who got a job must fall victim to this fault with very few exceptions. You sure about that 99% figure that was pulled from the 7th planet. It would in fact be closer to 99% the other way.

He's making up statistics in a futile attempt to disguise his profound ignorance. When we've got the government themselves conceding that at least 20% of the letters would have no actual debt, the actual figure is likely to be higher. 99% is baseless.

This has been a real clusterfsck from the government, and I wouldn't be surprised if they take a hit in the next round of opinion polls due out at the end of the month.

Unforgiven wrote on Jan 7^th, 2017 at 8:56am:

The Liberal government has panicked and lashed out wildly and irrationally with the Centrelink welfare payment claw-back. What this portends is that the government perceives that there is looming spike in welfare payments that it is seeking to mitigate by spreading fear.

Could be right but more primary is the fact that that the Liberals have already factored about $4Billion of debt recovery from the unemployed into this years Budget, the announcements have already been made and it is in the documentation.

Whoops looks like the numbers are wrong again. Who would than thunk that the Liberals would factor money that does not exist into their budget fudget.

Bam wrote on Jan 7^th, 2017 at 4:06pm:

Dnarever wrote on Jan 7th, 2017 at 8:50am: longweekend58 wrote on Jan 6th, 2017 at 5:02pm: Dnarever wrote on Jan 6th, 2017 at 5:00pm: The Liberals are having a great time aren't they , one week ripping off pensioners and the next it is the unemployed. No way they will try to get the wealthy or the multinationals to pay their tax. People try to argue that the Liberals are not really like that but the proof is in the pudding. It is what they do - every time. 99% of these people have genuiely been overpaid wither by error or false claims.  Is that a problem to you? You understand that one of the major parts of the problem is the algorithm which is averaging total earnings over 12 months and dividing by the number of weeks to determine average income. People are saying that this is true. Obviously thins means that every single person who was on benefits and got a job would have an average weekly income higher than is allowable. Virtually every single unemployed person who got a job must fall victim to this fault with very few exceptions. You sure about that 99% figure that was pulled from the 7th planet. It would in fact be closer to 99% the other way. He's making up statistics in a futile attempt to disguise his profound ignorance. When we've got the government themselves conceding that at least 20% of the letters would have no actual debt, the actual figure is likely to be higher. 99% is baseless. This has been a real clusterfsck from the government, and I wouldn't be surprised if they take a hit in the next round of opinion polls due out at the end of the month.

Quote:

When we've got the government themselves conceding that at least 20% of the letters would have no actual debt

I would think that is really optimistic and they likely have their fingers and toes crossed hoping that it is really only that bad. Even twice that 40% would be a good result for them, there is a high probability that it is worse than that.

Oh and before all you Ozpol Progs and ALP rusted-ons get too carried away...



Quote:

Labor’s leadership team of Bill Shorten and Tanya Plibersek pioneered the “robo-debt” data-matching system Centrelink is using to target current and former welfare recipients for apparently not declaring their income properly — but they now argue it should be suspended. The automated system of matching income data from the tax office and income as reported to Centrelink to identify discrepancies was announced in a joint release­ by the then minister for human services, Ms Plibersek, and the then assistant treasurer, now Opposition Leader, in June 2011, adding an extra $71 million to the budget. The release said the “tax garnishee process had been carried out manually once a year for the past 15 years and involved a significant amount of time on the part of departmental officers”. “The automation of this process will free up resources and result­ in more people being referred to the tax garnishee process, retrieving more outstanding debt on behalf of taxpayers,” Mr Shorten said at the time. The measure was forecast to “identify” 63,000 former customers over four years in addit­ion to the 43,000 captured in 2009-10.

So next time you see an ALP MP demanding explanations just tell them to ask Bill or Tanya. :D :D :D

Dnarever wrote on Jan 7^th, 2017 at 4:40pm:

Unforgiven wrote on Jan 7th, 2017 at 8:56am: The Liberal government has panicked and lashed out wildly and irrationally with the Centrelink welfare payment claw-back. What this portends is that the government perceives that there is looming spike in welfare payments that it is seeking to mitigate by spreading fear. Could be right but more primary is the fact that that the Liberals have already factored about $4Billion of debt recovery from the unemployed into this years Budget, the announcements have already been made and it is in the documentation. Whoops looks like the numbers are wrong again. Who would than thunk that the Liberals would factor money that does not exist into their budget fudget.

On the Budget, another pertinent point is Newstart is taxable income. If it has to be paid back, that money would be subject to tax adjustments and tax refunds may be payable.

This is why most of these false "debts" are over five years old. This is outside the period where the ATO advises that records be retained, so they are trying to minimise the chance of tax adjustments being claimed.

longweekend58 wrote on Jan 6^th, 2017 at 5:46pm:

Dnarever wrote on Jan 6th, 2017 at 5:36pm: longweekend58 wrote on Jan 6th, 2017 at 5:08pm: Bam wrote on Jan 6th, 2017 at 5:06pm: longweekend58 wrote on Jan 6th, 2017 at 4:25pm: They've gotten hundreds of millions back in over-payments already. Bullshit. That's just the amount they've sent out. Most of these will be reduced, many of them to nothing or almost nothing. In a press conference/release yesterday they said they had already received around $300M in back payments.  I am no fan of Centrelink and this is a pitiful example of their incompetence, but they are still largely correct in these notices. The scandal is about the rather obviously wrong ones that they are sending out. they had already received around $300M in back payments They are taking money out of peoples pay irrespective of if they actually owe any money. actually, they are not.  Garnering wages requires a bit more than a clerk simply asking for it to happen. Child support is garnered out of wages - when ordered. Some court ordered bankruptcy payments can also be thus. and so can centrelink AFTER all recovery actions have failed and a court grants it.

INCORRECT. Centrelink routinely withholds a portion of their existing payments while the debt is still in dispute and often under protest. Centrelink doesn't need a court order, it just TAKES. In many cases, this is done without the recipient even being informed. Due process of law as is understood by the wider community simply does not exist for Centrelink.


longweekend58 wrote on Jan 6^th, 2017 at 5:46pm:

You might not know but all of these debts are for people not currently receiving centrelink.

You might not know but you're just making up random bullshit and hoping that nobody notices. How can you possibly know the individual circumstances of all these 100,000 plus people? You don't.

Grendel wrote on Jan 8^th, 2017 at 8:11am:

Oh and before all you Ozpol Progs and ALP rusted-ons get too carried away... Quote: Labor’s leadership team of Bill Shorten and Tanya Plibersek pioneered the “robo-debt” data-matching system Centrelink is using to target current and former welfare recipients for apparently not declaring their income properly — but they now argue it should be suspended. The automated system of matching income data from the tax office and income as reported to Centrelink to identify discrepancies was announced in a joint release­ by the then minister for human services, Ms Plibersek, and the then assistant treasurer, now Opposition Leader, in June 2011, adding an extra $71 million to the budget. The release said the “tax garnishee process had been carried out manually once a year for the past 15 years and involved a significant amount of time on the part of departmental officers”. “The automation of this process will free up resources and result­ in more people being referred to the tax garnishee process, retrieving more outstanding debt on behalf of taxpayers,” Mr Shorten said at the time. The measure was forecast to “identify” 63,000 former customers over four years in addit­ion to the 43,000 captured in 2009-10. So next time you see an ALP MP demanding explanations just tell them to ask Bill or Tanya. :D :D :D

Why are you refusing to criticise the Coalition, the relevant Ministers or Centrelink?

Nobody gives a rat's arse for who implemented it. Many of the measures were laid down by the Howard government (eg: Social Security Administration Act 1997).

This farce has happened when the Coalition are in office, with the Ministers saying nothing is wrong and claiming credit for it. Senior bureaucrats in Centrelink are also claiming nothing is wrong. Yet you are silent on this. Why? Because you refuse to criticise your beloved Liberals, perhaps?

The system worked fine while there was manual checking. The Libs removed manual checking and the avalanche of errors and false and erroneous claims started. Libs responsible.

There is a real element of just wanting money as Bam said in his last post above.

Bam wrote on Jan 9^th, 2017 at 9:19am:

Dnarever wrote on Jan 7th, 2017 at 4:40pm: Unforgiven wrote on Jan 7th, 2017 at 8:56am: The Liberal government has panicked and lashed out wildly and irrationally with the Centrelink welfare payment claw-back. What this portends is that the government perceives that there is looming spike in welfare payments that it is seeking to mitigate by spreading fear. Could be right but more primary is the fact that that the Liberals have already factored about $4Billion of debt recovery from the unemployed into this years Budget, the announcements have already been made and it is in the documentation. Whoops looks like the numbers are wrong again. Who would than thunk that the Liberals would factor money that does not exist into their budget fudget. On the Budget, another pertinent point is Newstart is taxable income. If it has to be paid back, that money would be subject to tax adjustments and tax refunds may be payable. This is why most of these false "debts" are over five years old. This is outside the period where the ATO advises that records be retained, so they are trying to minimise the chance of tax adjustments being claimed.

Nothing but a pack of highwaymen robbing the poor... when caught they should be hung from lamp-posts at a cross-roads....

Anyone thought yet there may be a hidden agenda in play here?  A sneaky, unannounced policy change to dictating to the poorest in the land that their social security benefits will be calculated out over a year's income from now on?  That is, after all, what they're doing.... and it's as plain as day the relevant "minister" has zero intention of altering the current fiasco despite countless complaints and appeals.

Never forget this one come next election time.... I scent a very dirty rat in the wind here.... time to put these lying, cheating, thieving bastards in orbit without a capsule...

Bam wrote on Jan 9^th, 2017 at 9:35am:

Grendel wrote on Jan 8th, 2017 at 8:11am: Oh and before all you Ozpol Progs and ALP rusted-ons get too carried away... Quote: Labor’s leadership team of Bill Shorten and Tanya Plibersek pioneered the “robo-debt” data-matching system Centrelink is using to target current and former welfare recipients for apparently not declaring their income properly — but they now argue it should be suspended. The automated system of matching income data from the tax office and income as reported to Centrelink to identify discrepancies was announced in a joint release­ by the then minister for human services, Ms Plibersek, and the then assistant treasurer, now Opposition Leader, in June 2011, adding an extra $71 million to the budget. The release said the “tax garnishee process had been carried out manually once a year for the past 15 years and involved a significant amount of time on the part of departmental officers”. “The automation of this process will free up resources and result­ in more people being referred to the tax garnishee process, retrieving more outstanding debt on behalf of taxpayers,” Mr Shorten said at the time. The measure was forecast to “identify” 63,000 former customers over four years in addit­ion to the 43,000 captured in 2009-10. So next time you see an ALP MP demanding explanations just tell them to ask Bill or Tanya. :D :D :D Why are you refusing to criticise the Coalition, the relevant Ministers or Centrelink? Nobody gives a rat's arse for who implemented it. Many of the measures were laid down by the Howard government (eg: Social Security Administration Act 1997). This farce has happened when the Coalition are in office, with the Ministers saying nothing is wrong and claiming credit for it. Senior bureaucrats in Centrelink are also claiming nothing is wrong. Yet you are silent on this. Why? Because you refuse to criticise your beloved Liberals, perhaps?

Now you understand full well what I said about The Coward John Howard 'buying' the loyalty of senior public servants and 'owning' them by putting them on contract instead of tenure.  That little rat undermined one of the pillars of our society - the independence of the public service, and that includes police at State and Federal level - ALL their bosses are on contract, so run the government's line or face the boot.... now where does that leave us in NAZI Australia built by that little rat.

Never trust anyone under five foot seven...... look at Fat Hank Der Obersturmbannfuhrer and his public mutterances - not one word of dissent or disagreement, not even a moderate statement that perhaps there may be some problems but they are being looked at - just:- "Yes, Sir - No Sir - Three Bags Full, Sir!".... no balls, no guts and nothing but self-interest.

That's what comes of empire building by short men, young Harry!

Jovial Monk wrote on Jan 9^th, 2017 at 9:38am:

The system worked fine while there was manual checking. The Libs removed manual checking and the avalanche of errors and false and erroneous claims started. Libs responsible. There is a real element of just wanting money as Bam said in his last post above.

Precisely - and taking money by any means including force and coercion, is theft.  I would add the propaganda benefit from 'cracking down' on all those dole bludgers who are ruining this country with their excessive wages sending jobs offshore etc --- oops ---- wait a minute...

Watch the conga line on here come in with 'lazy, shiftless rsoles sitting around the beaches and drinking bourbon and cokes' ... some people actually believe the myths of unemployment and that people love living on $253 a week.

No wonder Howard carried out the coup - The Assassination of Jesse James Gun Owners By The Coward John Howard..... if he hadn't he'd be dodging a hail of bullets every time he stepped out of his door... when they finally come for you, there will be nobody to say anything..... good luck.   :-X

Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM wrote on Jan 9^th, 2017 at 9:45am:

Bam wrote on Jan 9th, 2017 at 9:19am: Dnarever wrote on Jan 7th, 2017 at 4:40pm: Unforgiven wrote on Jan 7th, 2017 at 8:56am: The Liberal government has panicked and lashed out wildly and irrationally with the Centrelink welfare payment claw-back. What this portends is that the government perceives that there is looming spike in welfare payments that it is seeking to mitigate by spreading fear. Could be right but more primary is the fact that that the Liberals have already factored about $4Billion of debt recovery from the unemployed into this years Budget, the announcements have already been made and it is in the documentation. Whoops looks like the numbers are wrong again. Who would than thunk that the Liberals would factor money that does not exist into their budget fudget. On the Budget, another pertinent point is Newstart is taxable income. If it has to be paid back, that money would be subject to tax adjustments and tax refunds may be payable. This is why most of these false "debts" are over five years old. This is outside the period where the ATO advises that records be retained, so they are trying to minimise the chance of tax adjustments being claimed. Nothing but a pack of highwaymen robbing the poor... when caught they should be hung from lamp-posts at a cross-roads.... Anyone thought yet there may be a hidden agenda in play here?  A sneaky, unannounced policy change to dictating to the poorest in the land that their social security benefits will be calculated out over a year's income from now on?  That is, after all, what they're doing.... and it's as plain as day the relevant "minister" has zero intention of altering the current fiasco despite countless complaints and appeals. Never forget this one come next election time.... I scent a very dirty rat in the wind here.... time to put these lying, cheating, thieving bastards in orbit without a capsule...

If social security benefits are to be calculated over a year's income, they must introduce yearly reporting. No more of this fortnightly reporting crap on earnings not yet paid on shifts not yet worked using payslips not yet issued.

Bam wrote on Jan 9^th, 2017 at 9:35am:

Why are you refusing to criticise the Coalition, the relevant Ministers or Centrelink?

the goose critical of the libs?

Hell will freeze over before that happens.

John Smith wrote on Jan 9^th, 2017 at 10:30am:

Bam wrote on Jan 9th, 2017 at 9:35am: Why are you refusing to criticise the Coalition, the relevant Ministers or Centrelink? the goose critical of the libs? Hell will freeze over before that happens.

LOL....  I've already made comments appropriate to them...  I'm now making a point about the dishonesty of Burney and co.

Since the problems stem from the Libs removing manual checking, the Libs not Labor, then the blame for the debacle is entirely on the Libs!

Not only that, the fact they are enforcing payments of debts where there is no debt shows that the removing of manual checking was done for a reason: collect as much cash as you can, don’t worry if it is right and legal.

No, the Libs are the ones responsible for this debacle. I hope there will be a class action soon.

Right so the fact it is the ALPs system is irrelevant, the fact they dishonestly ask for explanations from the Government about their system is irrelevant...  ONLY IF YOU ARE BIASED AND RUSTED ON  :D :D :D

Jovial Monk wrote on Jan 9^th, 2017 at 11:08am:

Not only that, the fact they are enforcing payments of debts where there is no debt shows that the removing of manual checking was done for a reason: collect as much cash as you can, don’t worry if it is right and legal. No, the Libs are the ones responsible for this debacle. I hope there will be a class action soon.

Ah according to media reports and department officials the letters only ask for the "clients" to check and clarify their claims.

NO, what the Libs are doing is changing the system, removing the manual checks and not worrying if debts really are debts. That ain’t the Labor system and no amount of screaming by roach can make it so.

Quote:

Hi Murray…This info might interest you. I’m an Ex Centrelink worker with 30 years experience. I have always worked ‘at the coalface’ i.e. in a local office with customers. I retired 4 years ago…but whats happening now is NOT new. Centrelink have matched info with the ATO for many years. In the past they’d receive raw information & real life Customer service officers would ‘sift’ though the matches of data…Centrelink customers & ATO Taxable income details, They’d look at start dates for employment as customers had declared it , see of it was for the same employer & roughly work out if it lined up They’d check to see if a customer pad been on payment from Centrelink for only part of the year. They’d check if employers were the same on both data bases. IF there were any matches that looked like a person HAD POSSIBLY been overpaid…they’d write to the customer & ask them to call… & tease our WHERE the discrepancy was. Then ask for proof (if it was still available from the customer…ie payslips. ) . If the customer didn’t have them & it looked like there is a possibility of an overpayment , write to the employer to ASK for the information. IF then evidence was collected that the customer had not declared the income correctly/ at all// not used the gross wages/ect & a debt existed… then the debt calculator would raise the debt in accordance with the legislation & the customer was written to. NOW most of that is done away with. It is all automated. A match comes up & the ATO details from . taxable info are split into 26 & calculated using that.& a debt raised. I don’t think for ONE minute that its Centrelinks doing…THIS smells of the Govt trying the exercise on….Centrelink would NOT have suggested it as they KNOW how many of the matches actually produce REAL debts…NOT what the Govt wants to hear.

https://mdneuzerling.com/2017/01/01/data-illiteracy-is-causing-centrelink-to-issue-false-debts/

Stinking Libs!

.

A website that's documenting some stories of people being unfairly pursued for money they do not owe.

#NotMyDebt

Some of the stories from here shows that the policy of pursuing debts after the ATO's document retention period may not be far off the mark:

Being from 5 years ago made it very difficult to track down pay slips and documentation

Quote:

It has concerned me a lot over the Christmas period, the short time frame given to pay back the debt initially stressed me out. The fact that it concerns payments from 5 years ago has made it very difficult to track down pay slips and documentation. I feel angry that I am the one accountable for proving the inaccuracies. It has been frustrating dealing with people on the phone who clearly don't understand the system and can't explain the reason for my debt and the skeleton staff they have had available over the holiday period even though they have demanded the payments over this period.

I cannot even find out if I have a debt

Quote:

I was on Youth Allowance when I first moved to the city to attend university. First in my family to do so etc. I applied for Youth Allowance and started receiving while I looked for a job in a new state (and living away from a small country town for the first time). I secured employment, but initially it was casual with unpredictable hours. I later went off Centrelink when I had a reliable enough job to pay my own way through uni (I received payments over two financial years). When it had been over five and a half years since I had been on Centrelink, I destroyed all my financial paperwork from this time. I figured if the ATO wanted me to keep paperwork for two years for simple returns, then I would keep my Centrelink related paperwork for five years, as it probably constituted a more complicated return. Now the government is chasing people who were on Centrelink from six years ago (and have the capacity to go further back). As I received part payments, and I worked fulltime for periods in the same financial years as I received Youth Allowance, it seems likely I have a "debt" too.

Grendel wrote on Jan 9^th, 2017 at 11:11am:

Jovial Monk wrote on Jan 9th, 2017 at 11:08am: Not only that, the fact they are enforcing payments of debts where there is no debt shows that the removing of manual checking was done for a reason: collect as much cash as you can, don’t worry if it is right and legal. No, the Libs are the ones responsible for this debacle. I hope there will be a class action soon. Ah according to media reports and department officials the letters only ask for the "clients" to check and clarify their claims.

This is false. The first time that many people even find out there's a problem is when they've been called by one of the debt collection thugs that Centrelink is using. Others are simply getting "invoices" complete with payment details such as BPAY. They received no other letter prior to this.

Many people last dealt with Centrelink years ago and so haven't had any need to keep their address up to date with them. Centrelink can data match with the ATO for payment amounts, but somehow can't do the same to get a current address? :-?

If this was taken to court, Centrelink would be torn to shreds for abusing due process of law. In many cases, they have not served documents properly and made no attempt to do so. If people are being threatened with jail, as Tudge is doing, you can be sure that Centrelink's procedure for service of documents will be subjected to rigorous scrutiny in court if it proceeds to trial. Any defect, and any "charges" won't stick.

Nah, the system is the same as Labor designed, screams roach. What BS:


Quote:

The Turnbull government’s mass invoices – constructed from data matching to claim discrepancies exist with Centrelink’s casual, disabled and vulnerable income earners – are expected to be used across the entire pensioner and social security sector. New discrepancies can be created over a recipient’s claimed asset values to substantiate invoices for ‘over-payments’. The ‘debt’ letters are distressing many recipients, as the public outcry shows. Data matching and garnishee was originally implemented by Labor in government, but it was the Turnbull government that devised the more aggressive, presumptive and system-wide invoicing strategy.

Worse to come.

Quote:

With a flagged $4 billion to be recovered over four years, Centrelink’s demand letters over alleged debts could be just the start. The Turnbull government’s mass invoices – constructed from data matching to claim discrepancies exist with Centrelink’s casual, disabled and vulnerable income earners – are expected to be used across the entire pensioner and social security sector. New discrepancies can be created over a recipient’s claimed asset values to substantiate invoices for ‘over-payments’.

Like so many of the shambles’ efforts this one will be counter productive:

Quote:

Our informant said the Centrelink data matching strategy would soon be exposed as counter-productive, with recipients now likely to desist in seeking any paid work for fear of losing any of their welfare payments.

Or look for payment “under the counter” so tax revenue misses out. All this could have been foreseen with a few minutes thought. I guess the shambles doesn’t think and that really does seem to be the case!

http://thenewdaily.com.au/money/finance-news/2017/01/08/centrelink-debts-just-the-start/

Moir's take on this.

---

Pure neoconservatism in action.

Yes Monkeyboy the system itself is that designed by Plibersek and Shorten...  you calling them liars.

What the shambles is using is not the system designed by Labor. It is a variation of it that removes all the checks.

Quote:

Labor’s leadership team of Bill Shorten and Tanya Plibersek pioneered the “robo-debt” data-matching system Centrelink is using to target current and former welfare recipients for apparently not declaring their income properly — but they now argue it should be suspended. The automated system of matching income data from the tax office and income as reported to Centrelink to identify discrepancies was announced in a joint release­ by the then minister for human services, Ms Plibersek, and the then assistant treasurer, now Opposition Leader, in June 2011, adding an extra $71 million to the budget. The release said the “tax garnishee process had been carried out manually once a year for the past 15 years and involved a significant amount of time on the part of departmental officers”. “The automation of this process will free up resources and result­ in more people being referred to the tax garnishee process, retrieving more outstanding debt on behalf of taxpayers,” Mr Shorten said at the time. The measure was forecast to “identify” 63,000 former customers over four years in addit­ion to the 43,000 captured in 2009-10. The amount of debt recovered from welfare letters in 2010-11 was $1.8 billion, jumping to $2.2bn in 2013-14. Under a dramatic escalation of the same system, the Coal­ition plans to recover almost $4bn in debt over the next four years, partly helped by a bipartisan vote in parliament that extended the statute of limitations on old debt that can be chased.

It is not the same system as all the manual checking has been removed. It is like a Ford with a Holden engine—can’t call it a Ford anymore.

Are you really that thick or that rightarded that you can’t see that?

Quote:

Burst of forgetfulness around Centrelink’s debt collection efforts Labor to the rescue! Fairfax reports exclusively on the opposition’s efforts to stop Centrelink debt collections, Fairfax websites, Friday: Linda Burney, Labor’s human services spokeswoman, has written to the Australian National Audit Office requesting they investigate Centrelink’s controversial $4.5 billion debt clawback project amid ongoing accusations that it is unfairly targeting people and miscalculating bills. They left something out. The Australian’s Rick Morton, Saturday: Labor’s leadership team of Bill Shorten and Tanya Plibersek pioneered the “robo-debt” data-matching system Centrelink is using to target current and former welfare recipients for apparently not declaring their income properly — but they now argue it should be suspended. The automated system of matching income data from the tax office and income as reported to Centrelink to identify discrepancies was announced in a joint release¬ by the then minister for human services, Ms Plibersek, and the then assistant treasurer, now Opposition Leader, in June 2011, adding an extra $71 million to the budget.

Grendel wrote on Jan 9^th, 2017 at 1:03pm:

Quote: Burst of forgetfulness around Centrelink’s debt collection efforts Labor to the rescue! Fairfax reports exclusively on the opposition’s efforts to stop Centrelink debt collections, Fairfax websites, Friday: Linda Burney, Labor’s human services spokeswoman, has written to the Australian National Audit Office requesting they investigate Centrelink’s controversial $4.5 billion debt clawback project amid ongoing accusations that it is unfairly targeting people and miscalculating bills. They left something out. The Australian’s Rick Morton, Saturday: Labor’s leadership team of Bill Shorten and Tanya Plibersek pioneered the “robo-debt” data-matching system Centrelink is using to target current and former welfare recipients for apparently not declaring their income properly — but they now argue it should be suspended. The automated system of matching income data from the tax office and income as reported to Centrelink to identify discrepancies was announced in a joint release¬ by the then minister for human services, Ms Plibersek, and the then assistant treasurer, now Opposition Leader, in June 2011, adding an extra $71 million to the budget.

OOOHHH that cant be true can it  ;)

Monk blames staff cuts for system failures...  but Albanese says...

The Coalition’s “slash and burn” approach to the public service had weakened Centrelink, forcing Australians to spend hours on the phone, and unable to have their issue handled in the agency’s offices. 

gee Monk....  do you honestly think this is the problem with the system? ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
people have always had to spend hours on the phone with Centrelink. :D :D :D

My advice to the Government and the idiots Porter and Tudge...  and yes I've called them idiots before... scrap the LABOR SYSTEM of current automated Debt Recovery....  until you get it to work properly and simplify the Centrelink systems so the staff can actually make heads and tails of the total mess that it is.

What I have said, roach, is that the manual checking has been removed and the avalanche of threatening letters to people that don’t owe Centrelink anything started.

I have said this many times because you are so rightarded you cannot admit the Libs ever make a mistake or are guilty of fraud re TA etc.

So rightarded it is pathetic, roach.

.

Grendel wrote on Jan 9^th, 2017 at 1:15pm:

My advice to the Government and the idiots Porter and Tudge...  and yes I've called them idiots before... scrap the LABOR SYSTEM of current automated Debt Recovery....  until you get it to work properly and simplify the Centrelink systems so the staff can actually make heads and tails of the total mess that it is.

No, reinstitute the manual checking. Removing the manual checking is the cause of the problems now.

Grendel wrote on Jan 9^th, 2017 at 1:15pm:

My advice to the Government and the idiots Porter and Tudge...  and yes I've called them idiots before... scrap the LABOR COALITION'S SYSTEM of current automated Debt Recovery....  until you get it to work properly and simplify the Centrelink systems so the staff can actually make heads and tails of the total mess that it is.

Fixed it for you - the Coalition made it automated by taking people out of the loop.

If it was Labor's problem, why didn't this mess happen five years ago?  ::)

Your desperation to blame Labor is getting more and more comical. It happened on the Coalition's watch, with the Coalition taking all the credit for "budget repair" by crowing about the hundreds of millions they are "recovering". Face it ... they OWN this problem, not Labor.

Jovial Monk wrote on Jan 9^th, 2017 at 1:28pm:

Grendel wrote on Jan 9th, 2017 at 1:15pm: My advice to the Government and the idiots Porter and Tudge...  and yes I've called them idiots before... scrap the LABOR SYSTEM of current automated Debt Recovery....  until you get it to work properly and simplify the Centrelink systems so the staff can actually make heads and tails of the total mess that it is. No, reinstitute the manual checking. Removing the manual checking is the cause of the problems now.

Not good enough.

Other measures that are needed:
* Put the onus of proof the way it's supposed to be - innocent until proven guilty.
* Require Centrelink to serve documents properly.
* Reinstate a strict six-year statute of limitations.
* Allow counterclaims for underpayment to be applied against any "debts".
* Require Centrelink to provide ACCURATE information on its website, starting with removing the "recommendation" to keep payslips for only "six months".
* Change reporting requirements so claimants aren't forced to predict the future every fortnight.

Grendel wrote on Jan 9^th, 2017 at 1:07pm:

Monk blames staff cuts for system failures...  but Albanese says... The Coalition’s “slash and burn” approach to the public service had weakened Centrelink, forcing Australians to spend hours on the phone, and unable to have their issue handled in the agency’s offices.  gee Monk....  do you honestly think this is the problem with the system? ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D people have always had to spend hours on the phone with Centrelink. :D :D :D

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  ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)

Jovial Monk wrote on Jan 9^th, 2017 at 1:28pm:

Grendel wrote on Jan 9th, 2017 at 1:15pm: My advice to the Government and the idiots Porter and Tudge...  and yes I've called them idiots before... scrap the LABOR SYSTEM of current automated Debt Recovery....  until you get it to work properly and simplify the Centrelink systems so the staff can actually make heads and tails of the total mess that it is. No, reinstitute the manual checking. Removing the manual checking is the cause of the problems now.

year 11 economics: government intervention in the marketplace is difficult to extract from  :o :o :o

...wait.... hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmn  ::)

I reckon many of the forum members who are here everyday from dawn into the night racking up phenomenal post counts would be ok.  With no income apart from the dole no room for errors.   ;D

Some of us are retired, dear, so don’t you worry your pretty head.

Grendel wrote on Jan 9^th, 2017 at 1:07pm:

Monk blames staff cuts for system failures...  but Albanese says... The Coalition’s “slash and burn” approach to the public service had weakened Centrelink, forcing Australians to spend hours on the phone, and unable to have their issue handled in the agency’s offices.  gee Monk....  do you honestly think this is the problem with the system? ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D people have always had to spend hours on the phone with Centrelink. :D :D :D

It used to be that claimants could also visit their local Centrelink office to sort out any problems. This is no longer the case because these staff are no longer authorised to deal with these problems. People MUST use the phone now, and that's barely working.

Secret Wars wrote on Jan 9^th, 2017 at 2:02pm:

I reckon many of the forum members who are here everyday from dawn into the night racking up phenomenal post counts would be ok.  With no income apart from the dole no room for errors.   ;D

secret wars is german or some bugger* up ego shite  ::)

go to the pub much wimpo  :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ ?

Yeh, nah hang out with russinas and smoke crack but never do the deed: yeh, we all know  ;D

Ombudsman launches investigation into Centrelink debt recovery crisis

Quote:

The ombudsman has launched a broad, self-initiated investigation into the Centrelink automated debt recovery scandal, as the Labor leader, Bill Shorten, demanded the automated system be suspended. “This farce has to end,” Shorten told Fairfax Media. “This stuff-up has delivered a summer from hell for thousands of people who have done absolutely nothing wrong.” Both the independent, Andrew Wilkie, and Senator Nick Xenophon had referred the debt recovery system to the commonwealth ombudsman’s office before Christmas, amid mounting complaints that it was sending incorrect debt notices on a large scale. But the deputy ombudsman, Richard Glenn, told Guardian Australia on Monday the office had decided to launch an investigation of its own accord, describing it as an “issue of significant interest to this office”. “I can certainly say the ombudsman has approved an own-motion investigation into the matter,” Glenn said. “That is self-initiated, this one will be self-initiated because we have a number of complaints and there is significant public controversy about the issue. So it is an inquiry into the issue at large, rather than into a specific complaint,” he said. “Certainly there’s enough information from complaints we’ve received and … that it’s an issue of significant interest to this office, and we’ll be pursuing it.” The ombudsman’s investigation will focus on problems with the automated data-matching process being used to compare Centrelink and tax office records, the quality of Centrelink’s communication with its customers and the management of the subsequent process. “It’s a big program, it’s a big item to have a look at. We don’t really have a handle on how long it’s going to take to do it,” Glenn said. “Really we need to get our heads around how the technology works, and what the responses are to the technology. “It’s going to take some resources to do the job, we have some available, we’re certainly able to pull resources from across the agency to do it, so it shouldn’t be a major impact on us.” Glenn said the decision to remove human oversight of the data-matching process would be “certainly one of the issues we will look at”. “Clearly there have been some differences in the program compared to the way it’s worked in the past, both in volume and the way the technology works. “It’s quite clear that there’s an issue surrounding how the program works because of the sort of the complaints that we’re seeing.” He said the Department of Human Services had so far been cooperative and accommodating to the ombudsman’s office. The ombudsman’s powers are limited. It can make only recommendations, and is not able to compel change. But Glenn said the office could report publicly. The system could also face the scrutiny of the auditor general, following a referral from Labor, and the information and privacy commissioner, who has been in contact with the department.

TheFunPolice wrote on Jan 9^th, 2017 at 2:12pm:

Secret Wars wrote on Jan 9th, 2017 at 2:02pm: I reckon many of the forum members who are here everyday from dawn into the night racking up phenomenal post counts would be ok.  With no income apart from the dole no room for errors.   ;D secret wars is german or some bugger* up ego shite  ::) go to the pub much wimpo  :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ ? Yeh, nah hang out with russinas and smoke crack but never do the deed: yeh, we all know  ;D

Beauty part of a forum like this is it keeps cretins, losers and the unemployable off the streets.

Secret Wars wrote on Jan 9^th, 2017 at 2:19pm:

TheFunPolice wrote on Jan 9th, 2017 at 2:12pm: Secret Wars wrote on Jan 9th, 2017 at 2:02pm: I reckon many of the forum members who are here everyday from dawn into the night racking up phenomenal post counts would be ok.  With no income apart from the dole no room for errors.   ;D secret wars is german or some bugger* up ego shite  ::) go to the pub much wimpo  :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ ? Yeh, nah hang out with russinas and smoke crack but never do the deed: yeh, we all know  ;D Beauty part of a forum like this is it keeps cretins, losers and the unemployable off the streets.

You should be a psychologist and analyse your body language in the mirror .

Jovial Monk wrote on Jan 9^th, 2017 at 1:26pm:

What I have said, roach, is that the manual checking has been removed and the avalanche of threatening letters to people that don’t owe Centrelink anything started. I have said this many times because you are so rightarded you cannot admit the Libs ever make a mistake or are guilty of fraud re TA etc. So rightarded it is pathetic, roach.

Best you shut up rather than look more stupid...  the staff cuts are not the problem the system is.
You are such a computer illiterate.
If the system was set up properly in the first place we wouldn't have a problem. :D :D :D :D :D

Jovial Monk wrote on Jan 9^th, 2017 at 1:28pm:

Grendel wrote on Jan 9th, 2017 at 1:15pm: My advice to the Government and the idiots Porter and Tudge...  and yes I've called them idiots before... scrap the LABOR SYSTEM of current automated Debt Recovery....  until you get it to work properly and simplify the Centrelink systems so the staff can actually make heads and tails of the total mess that it is. No, reinstitute the manual checking. Removing the manual checking is the cause of the problems now.

No its not YOU IDIOT...
Labor decided to automate things to free up staff, that was a good idea, you don't automate things to create more work for existing staff or so you have to hire more staff.  Ask an adult.
Problem is their system is faulty....  ask Wilkie, he agrees with me. ::) ::) ::)

The Labor system had manual checking, the Lib system doesn’t. The Libs system is designed to rip money off the defenceless.

Grendel wrote on Jan 9^th, 2017 at 5:03pm:

Jovial Monk wrote on Jan 9th, 2017 at 1:26pm: What I have said, roach, is that the manual checking has been removed and the avalanche of threatening letters to people that don’t owe Centrelink anything started. I have said this many times because you are so rightarded you cannot admit the Libs ever make a mistake or are guilty of fraud re TA etc. So rightarded it is pathetic, roach. Best you shut up rather than look more stupid...  the staff cuts are not the problem the system is. You are such a computer illiterate. If the system was set up properly in the first place we wouldn't have a problem. :D :D :D :D :D

I never ever mentioned staff cuts. Staff cuts are not the problem. A predatory attitude by the Libs and lack of manual checking has caused the problem.

Coming soon to a theatre near you!.....

Invasion Of The Data Matchers...

starring..

Alan Tudge

Christian Porter

and

Fat Hank Jongen as Jabba.....

'Ere's me post on another forum:-


One guarantee of a free society is a free exchange of information. 
- John Fitzgerald Kennedy.


So now we see the picture entire for the drinking.   

First Colonel C'link unliterally creates a new set of rules by which it alone wishes to operate, without any notice to its customers or any announcement in any way, i.e. rather than looking at income over the accepted for many years (and possibly statutory) period of two weeks, one two week period at a time - the Good Colonel now wishes to view the entire earnings of any of its customers over the full twelve months financial year – and then wishes to re-calculate their Entitlements under Social Security.

In order to achieve this end, they take the tax information willingly and freely lodged with the Australian Tax Office for a full year's earnings, under their 'new' data matching system.

Then, without notice, they re-calculate any person's annual earnings and determine that this individual averaged a certain amount of income over that twelve months – rather than viewing (as above) their income received over each two week period whilst in receipt of Social Security payments.

Their letters of demand offer two weeks in which to resolve the matter or face further action, including a 'collection fee' of 10%, and possible criminal action, as well as suspension or forced re-payment from current benefits.

The Good Colonel refuses to allow discussion or even a viewing of the affected individual's personal reporting record, or even to accept that a mistake may have been made, and that there is a chance of resolution by a proper audit.

They do this to countless thousands just before Christmas, meaning that the individuals concerned have little to no chance of even beginning to collect their wits, let alone their information needed to correctly resolve this situation.

On top of that, it is not possible for the affected individual(s) to gather their OWN INFORMATION lodged with the ATO, by their employer(s) in accordance with law, every pay period.  The ATO will say that is protected information under the Privacy Act or whatever, and it is now the property of the ATO and NOT that individual.

Thus the affected individual is left with no possible avenue of mounting a defence – unless they are fortunate enough to retain all their pay slips in an orderly fashion (who does that these days?  People rely on their employer to keep correct records and on the ATO AND Centrelink to deal with them properly).

The affected individual MAY lodge a 'Freedom of Information' claim with the ATO – OR take the matter of access to personal information to the appropriate court... but either of these actions will NOT occur BEFORE the time limit demanded by Colonel Clink has expired – meaning the person will be stung with a 'debt' they have had no means of defending, plus costs, plus interest, and will have no choice but to pay or suffer sanction by a court of law and pursuit by bill collectors.

As I said – this entire issue should fall at the first minute in a court hearing, since it has no remote association with Natural Justice.

This approach – of Colonel Clink arbitrarily positing that income will now be looked at over a full financial year, and even beyond, means that Centrelink, under direct orders from this government, is arbitrarily and unilaterally decreeing, without recourse to historical usage, regulation or possibly law, that SOCIAL SECURITY IS NOW A LOAN, that must be repaid on demand.  I have every expectation that this is the thin edge of the wedge to forcing on the public the concept that an Age Pension is now also a 'loan' due upon death.



(Copy forwarded to Andrew Wilkie – thank you, Colonel, for your actions)...

As I said:


Quote:

Humans did the job extremely well. A former Centrelink worker with 30 years experience says they would "look at start dates for employment that customers had declared, see if it was the same for the employer [using Tax Office records] and roughly work out if it lined up." "If it looked as if a person had possibly been overpaid they would write to the customer and ask them to call and tease out where the discrepancy was, and ask for proof, if it was still available, in the form of things such as payslips. If the customer didn't have them and it looked like there was a possibility of an overpayment, they would write to the employer to ask for the information. If evidence was collected that the customer had not declared the income correctly and a debt existed, then the debt calculator would raise the debt in accordance with the legislation and the customer would be written to." What's important in this description is the humans charged with applying the law didn't issue debt notices unless they had evidence that a debt existed. To do so without evidence would be to break the law.

http://www.smh.com.au/comment/how-centrelink-unleashed-a-weapon-of-math-destruction-20170105-gtmsnz.html

People who have been unfairly targeted with inaccurate Centrelink debts could have grounds to sue the government, according to the Australian Lawyers Alliance. Now we’re talking!


https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2017/jan/10/centrelink-crisis-people-targeted-with-inaccurate-debts-may-be-able-to-sue


BRING IT ON!

Quote:

Porter confirmed the averaging out process was taking place, but told ABC radio on Monday that it only occurred if an individual did not respond to Centrelink’s initial correspondence within three weeks. “If you do not respond to the original correspondence, at all within that 21-day period or ask for an extension, then it will be the case that the ATO estimate will be the preferred reporting and there will be an averaging out process,” Porter said.

Giving people just 21 days to respond during the Christmas period when many businesses are shut and many people are taking holidays - this is deliberately designed to cause as much damage as possible.

Bam wrote on Jan 10^th, 2017 at 1:50pm:

Quote: Porter confirmed the averaging out process was taking place, but told ABC radio on Monday that it only occurred if an individual did not respond to Centrelink’s initial correspondence within three weeks. “If you do not respond to the original correspondence, at all within that 21-day period or ask for an extension, then it will be the case that the ATO estimate will be the preferred reporting and there will be an averaging out process,” Porter said. Giving people just 21 days to respond during the Christmas period when many businesses are shut and many people are taking holidays - this is deliberately designed to cause as much damage as possible.

Calculated thuggery by a shambles of a government. I guess they are desperate to be seen to be doing something to reduce the deficit because if we lose the 9As when the Libs are in power then they will lose their perceived “better economic managers.”

Has anyone else noticed this expression 'raise a debt' creeping into this discussion?  It is being used as if it is a legal term when in fact it is a nothing.

Debts are not 'raised.'  They are incurred, and until the alleged debt is admitted or proven, it is just a claim made by one person against another, like any other allegation.

I wonder how much of this 'raised debt' has been factored in as real, and actually coming into Government coffers in the current budget?

Aussie wrote on Jan 10^th, 2017 at 2:26pm:

Has anyone else noticed this expression 'raise a debt' creeping into this discussion?  It is being used as if it is a legal term when in fact it is a nothing. Debts are not 'raised.'  They are incurred, and until the alleged debt is admitted or proven, it is just a claim made by one person against another, like any other allegation. I wonder how much of this 'raised debt' has been factored in as real, and actually coming into Government coffers in the current budget?

I think the term that fits best is "alleged debt". It's not a real debt until it is proven.

If it's fair to call these "debts" without qualification, it's also fair to say that companies are committing tax evasion costing over $30 billion of tax annually. In reality, both are unproven, therefore both are allegations.

Post-truth!

I have a question, if Centrelink sent me a letter claiming I owed money and I believed I didnt I would elect

to have the matter heard in court.Dosent the onus of  proof fall upon the accuser in this case the govt?

if the claim is false how can they prove it?