Oh dear..

The Governor of Jakarta has fronted the press after spending almost nine hours with police over blasphemy allegations linked to last week's violent protest in the Indonesian capital.

Basuki Tjahaja Purnama, known as Ahok, faced more than a dozen questions after being summoned by police over allegations he insulted the Koran.

He emerged to tell the waiting media if they want any more information they should get it from the investigator.

"I want to go home. I'm hungry," he said.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-11-07/jakarta-governor-questioned-by-police-over-koran-comments/8003426

It's hard to keep up with the muzzies and their apologists, but it appears that "the beacon of secularity" really means "backward 7th century police state".

No doubt John will be along soon to reassure us all that it is not "meaningful"....

freediver wrote on Nov 8^th, 2016 at 12:24pm:

No doubt John will be along soon to reassure us all that it is not "meaningful"....

please don't tell me you think this was BECAUSE of the protests?  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

The blasphemy laws were in place long before last weekend.
Police had always said they were investigating.


:D :D :D

Indonesia, the beacon of secularism, has blasphemy laws?  I wonder where these stem from.

John Smith wrote on Nov 8^th, 2016 at 6:29pm:

freediver wrote on Nov 8th, 2016 at 12:24pm: No doubt John will be along soon to reassure us all that it is not "meaningful".... please don't tell me you think this was BECAUSE of the protests?  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D The blasphemy laws were in place long before last weekend. Police had always said they were investigating. :D :D :D

What do you think about the fact people protest on the street, and demand arrest, because someone dared to talk about their beloved Koran? 100 injured. 1 dead. Over criticising the Koran.  Where do you think this behaviour comes from?

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Nov 16^th, 2016 at 7:25pm:

John Smith wrote on Nov 8th, 2016 at 6:29pm: freediver wrote on Nov 8th, 2016 at 12:24pm: No doubt John will be along soon to reassure us all that it is not "meaningful".... please don't tell me you think this was BECAUSE of the protests?  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D The blasphemy laws were in place long before last weekend. Police had always said they were investigating. :D :D :D What do you think about the fact people protest on the street, and demand arrest, because someone dared to talk about their beloved Koran? 100 injured. 1 dead. Over criticising the Koran.  Where do you think this behaviour comes from?

overkill.

freediver wrote on Nov 8^th, 2016 at 12:24pm:

No doubt John will be along soon to reassure us all that it is not "meaningful"....

this is more meaningful than the protest you were so scared off.  :D :D :D

John Smith wrote on Nov 16^th, 2016 at 7:26pm:

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Nov 16th, 2016 at 7:25pm: John Smith wrote on Nov 8th, 2016 at 6:29pm: freediver wrote on Nov 8th, 2016 at 12:24pm: No doubt John will be along soon to reassure us all that it is not "meaningful".... please don't tell me you think this was BECAUSE of the protests?  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D The blasphemy laws were in place long before last weekend. Police had always said they were investigating. :D :D :D What do you think about the fact people protest on the street, and demand arrest, because someone dared to talk about their beloved Koran? 100 injured. 1 dead. Over criticising the Koran.  Where do you think this behaviour comes from? overkill.

Do you think liberal minded people violently protest because someone says something about a book? 

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Nov 16^th, 2016 at 7:29pm:

John Smith wrote on Nov 16th, 2016 at 7:26pm: sir prince duke alevine wrote on Nov 16th, 2016 at 7:25pm: John Smith wrote on Nov 8th, 2016 at 6:29pm: freediver wrote on Nov 8th, 2016 at 12:24pm: No doubt John will be along soon to reassure us all that it is not "meaningful".... please don't tell me you think this was BECAUSE of the protests?  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D The blasphemy laws were in place long before last weekend. Police had always said they were investigating. :D :D :D What do you think about the fact people protest on the street, and demand arrest, because someone dared to talk about their beloved Koran? 100 injured. 1 dead. Over criticising the Koran.  Where do you think this behaviour comes from? overkill. Do you think liberal minded people violently protest because someone says something about a book?

no, i think anyone who protests violently is an idiot, irrespective of whether they use a book as their excuse or not.

John Smith wrote on Nov 16^th, 2016 at 7:32pm:

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Nov 16th, 2016 at 7:29pm: John Smith wrote on Nov 16th, 2016 at 7:26pm: sir prince duke alevine wrote on Nov 16th, 2016 at 7:25pm: John Smith wrote on Nov 8th, 2016 at 6:29pm: freediver wrote on Nov 8th, 2016 at 12:24pm: No doubt John will be along soon to reassure us all that it is not "meaningful".... please don't tell me you think this was BECAUSE of the protests?  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D The blasphemy laws were in place long before last weekend. Police had always said they were investigating. :D :D :D What do you think about the fact people protest on the street, and demand arrest, because someone dared to talk about their beloved Koran? 100 injured. 1 dead. Over criticising the Koran.  Where do you think this behaviour comes from? overkill. Do you think liberal minded people violently protest because someone says something about a book?  no, i think anyone who protests violently is an idiot, irrespective of whether they use a book as their excuse or not.

So you're concerned about the protest being more violent than about the mere fact thousands of people protest and demand a person be punished for criticising a book?

How many of such people are you prepared to live with/next to?

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Nov 16^th, 2016 at 7:35pm:

So you're concerned about the protest being more violent than about the mere fact thousands of people protest and demand a person be punished for criticising a book?

their country, their laws .... I don't usually concern myself with laws in other countries unless I am visiting that country and only to the extent that I don't want to break any of their laws. If the Indonesian public is happy with the laws, who am I to disagree with them? If they aren't happy it's up to them to petition their MPs to change it. I really don't give a stuff either way. They have to live with them, not me.

He's been charged with blasphemy.

Gordon wrote on Nov 16^th, 2016 at 7:39pm:

He's been charged with blasphemy.

Impossible .... FD reassured us that if he was going to be charged, they would have done so on the first day. You must be mistaken.  :D :D

John Smith wrote on Nov 16^th, 2016 at 7:39pm:

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Nov 16th, 2016 at 7:35pm: So you're concerned about the protest being more violent than about the mere fact thousands of people protest and demand a person be punished for criticising a book? their country, their laws .... I don't usually concern myself with laws in other countries unless I am visiting that country and only to the extent that I don't want to break any of their laws. If the Indonesian public is happy with the laws, who am I to disagree with them? If they aren't happy it's up to them to petition their MPs to change it. I really don't give a stuff either way. They have to live with them, not me.

I'm asking your opinion of the law and whether you think it is acceptable in a so called beacon of secularism that our friendly Gandalf keeps proclaiming Indonesia to be.  You can disagree with the Indonesian public, why not?  After all, your morals and ethics are your own. If a country legalised raping, murdering and then eating a person would you also be okay with it on the basis the public agrees?

And anyway, I'm asking you more where you feel the law stems from. Why are people seemingly happy with this law? And how many of these said people would you be willing to live with?

John Smith wrote on Nov 16^th, 2016 at 7:40pm:

Gordon wrote on Nov 16th, 2016 at 7:39pm: He's been charged with blasphemy. Just heard on ABC NSW news Impossible .... FD reassured us that if he was going to be charged, they would have done so on the first day. You must be mistaken.  :D :D

Jakarta Governor Basuki Tjahaja Purnama said he has prepared his family for the possibility of his imprisonment if the authorities find him guilty of blasphemy.

"I thank God that I have a good family," he told Tempo news on Saturday, adding that his family understands that his position as governor comes with certain risks.

Gordon wrote on Nov 16^th, 2016 at 7:44pm:

John Smith wrote on Nov 16th, 2016 at 7:40pm: Gordon wrote on Nov 16th, 2016 at 7:39pm: He's been charged with blasphemy. Just heard on ABC NSW news Impossible .... FD reassured us that if he was going to be charged, they would have done so on the first day. You must be mistaken.  :D :D

I know, just highlighting some of FD's ridiculous comments. I put up an article showing he was to attend court earlier today.

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Nov 16^th, 2016 at 7:25pm:

John Smith wrote on Nov 8th, 2016 at 6:29pm: freediver wrote on Nov 8th, 2016 at 12:24pm: No doubt John will be along soon to reassure us all that it is not "meaningful".... please don't tell me you think this was BECAUSE of the protests?  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D The blasphemy laws were in place long before last weekend. Police had always said they were investigating. :D :D :D What do you think about the fact people protest on the street, and demand arrest, because someone dared to talk about their beloved Koran? 100 injured. 1 dead. Over criticising the Koran.  Where do you think this behaviour comes from?

Where do you think, Alevine?

I'm curious.

Karnal wrote on Nov 16^th, 2016 at 7:54pm:

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Nov 16th, 2016 at 7:25pm: John Smith wrote on Nov 8th, 2016 at 6:29pm: freediver wrote on Nov 8th, 2016 at 12:24pm: No doubt John will be along soon to reassure us all that it is not "meaningful".... please don't tell me you think this was BECAUSE of the protests?  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D The blasphemy laws were in place long before last weekend. Police had always said they were investigating. :D :D :D What do you think about the fact people protest on the street, and demand arrest, because someone dared to talk about their beloved Koran? 100 injured. 1 dead. Over criticising the Koran.  Where do you think this behaviour comes from? Where do you think, Alevine? I'm curious.

Inside my home, on the tube, at work, on the plane, outdoors.  Basically everywhere,karnal.

Do you think, karnal? I'm curious.

I say, you're not blaming Islam, shurely?

Who, exactly, do you blame?

Karnal wrote on Nov 16^th, 2016 at 8:09pm:

I say, you're not blaming Islam, shurely? Who, exactly, do you blame?

Karnal - I asked you a question.

John Smith wrote on Nov 16^th, 2016 at 7:39pm:

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Nov 16th, 2016 at 7:35pm: So you're concerned about the protest being more violent than about the mere fact thousands of people protest and demand a person be punished for criticising a book? their country, their laws .... I don't usually concern myself with laws in other countries unless I am visiting that country and only to the extent that I don't want to break any of their laws. If the Indonesian public is happy with the laws, who am I to disagree with them? If they aren't happy it's up to them to petition their MPs to change it. I really don't give a stuff either way. They have to live with them, not me.

Ah yes, a petition. That should fix it.

Wow did anyone's watch 730rpt?

No :(. What happened?  They jail him for calling Mohammad a barbarian?

freediver wrote on Nov 16^th, 2016 at 8:13pm:

John Smith wrote on Nov 16th, 2016 at 7:39pm: sir prince duke alevine wrote on Nov 16th, 2016 at 7:35pm: So you're concerned about the protest being more violent than about the mere fact thousands of people protest and demand a person be punished for criticising a book? their country, their laws .... I don't usually concern myself with laws in other countries unless I am visiting that country and only to the extent that I don't want to break any of their laws. If the Indonesian public is happy with the laws, who am I to disagree with them? If they aren't happy it's up to them to petition their MPs to change it. I really don't give a stuff either way. They have to live with them, not me. Ah yes, a petition. That should fix it.

so now you want them out on the street fighting? you need to make up your mind.  :D :D

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Nov 16^th, 2016 at 8:10pm:

Karnal wrote on Nov 16th, 2016 at 8:09pm: I say, you're not blaming Islam, shurely? Who, exactly, do you blame? Karnal - I asked you a question.

Don't want to say, eh?

Is that because you don't really blame Islam, Alevine, or you do?

We're curious. We're keen to know what you think.

Gordon wrote on Nov 16^th, 2016 at 8:14pm:

Wow did anyone's watch 730rpt?

I did. The thesis was that the imams are going for the governor because he's an anti-corruption crusader. They paid the protesters 50,000 rupiah to go to FD's demo.

Islam or corruption? Corruption or Islam?

Questions questions.

Karnal wrote on Nov 16^th, 2016 at 8:37pm:

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Nov 16th, 2016 at 8:10pm: Karnal wrote on Nov 16th, 2016 at 8:09pm: I say, you're not blaming Islam, shurely? Who, exactly, do you blame? Karnal - I asked you a question. Don't want to say, eh? Is that because you don't really blame Islam, Alevine, or you do? We're curious. We're keen to know what you think.

Not at all, i just remember you like to play this game karnal, so I'm being accomodating. No pushing in line now!  Answer the question, karnal.

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Nov 16^th, 2016 at 9:03pm:

Karnal wrote on Nov 16th, 2016 at 8:37pm: sir prince duke alevine wrote on Nov 16th, 2016 at 8:10pm: Karnal wrote on Nov 16th, 2016 at 8:09pm: I say, you're not blaming Islam, shurely? Who, exactly, do you blame? Karnal - I asked you a question. Don't want to say, eh? Is that because you don't really blame Islam, Alevine, or you do? We're curious. We're keen to know what you think. Not at all, i just remember you like to play this game karnal, so I'm being accomodating. No pushing in line now!  Answer the question, karnal.

No worries, Alevine, you've forgotten. What do your leaders say?

Look it up and get back, Okay?

Karnal wrote on Nov 16^th, 2016 at 8:40pm:

Gordon wrote on Nov 16th, 2016 at 8:14pm: Wow did anyone's watch 730rpt? I did. The thesis was that the imams are going for the governor because he's an anti-corruption crusader. They paid the protesters 50,000 rupiah to go to FD's demo. Islam or corruption? Corruption or Islam? Questions questions.

"Protester" who was paid ~US $20 to attend November 4 rally admits he will vote for Ahok.

https://youtu.be/0LcKNE34i1Q

polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 16^th, 2016 at 10:23pm:

Karnal wrote on Nov 16th, 2016 at 8:40pm: Gordon wrote on Nov 16th, 2016 at 8:14pm: Wow did anyone's watch 730rpt? I did. The thesis was that the imams are going for the governor because he's an anti-corruption crusader. They paid the protesters 50,000 rupiah to go to FD's demo. Islam or corruption? Corruption or Islam? Questions questions. "Protester" who was paid ~US $20 to attend November 4 rally admits he will vote for Ahok. https://youtu.be/0LcKNE34i1Q

Oooh and how many of the 200,000 would we say are paid?  Where are the pro ahok rallies, from the Muslim majority?

What's the matter, Alevine? Cat got your tongue?

Karnal wrote on Nov 16^th, 2016 at 10:43pm:

What's the matter, Alevine? Cat got your tongue?

About what?  The fact that polls went from 60% for ahok to 25%?  Or the fact that blasphemy is an actual law in Indonesia?  Or the fact that Indonesian Muslim majority actually cares about blasphemy and demands punishment for it? Or the fact as usual the Islamic brainwashing is so big that people don't even know what blasphemy actually is, and constitute it to be anything that refers to the mere mention of the Koran?

Islam is so wonderful.  Just ask anyone in the blessed secular state of Indonesia.

Don't let the cat get your tongue now, karnal :)

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Nov 16^th, 2016 at 10:49pm:

About what?  The fact that polls went from 60% for ahok to 25%?  Or the fact that blasphemy is an actual law in Indonesia?  Or the fact that Indonesian Muslim majority actually cares about blasphemy and demands punishment for it? Or the fact as usual the Islamic brainwashing is so big that people don't even know what blasphemy actually is, and constitute it to be anything that refers to the mere mention of the Koran?

Yes K, you listen to alevine spin that BS about how blasphemy caused his drop in the polls - but just ignore the part about his poll numbers being almost the same as they are now before any blasphemy came up.


Quote:

A survey last month by pollster Lingkaran Survei Indonesia (LSI), taken before the protest, showed his support at 31 per cent.

http://www.straitstimes.com/asia/se-asia/fall-in-support-for-jakarta-governor

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Nov 16^th, 2016 at 10:49pm:

Karnal wrote on Nov 16th, 2016 at 10:43pm: What's the matter, Alevine? Cat got your tongue? About what?

About whether you blame Islam or you want to see an Islamic reformation?

I'm curious.

polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 16^th, 2016 at 10:23pm:

Karnal wrote on Nov 16th, 2016 at 8:40pm: Gordon wrote on Nov 16th, 2016 at 8:14pm: Wow did anyone's watch 730rpt? I did. The thesis was that the imams are going for the governor because he's an anti-corruption crusader. They paid the protesters 50,000 rupiah to go to FD's demo. Islam or corruption? Corruption or Islam? Questions questions. "Protester" who was paid ~US $20 to attend November 4 rally admits he will vote for Ahok. https://youtu.be/0LcKNE34i1Q

Who to believe, who to believe.....

Abu Jibril, the leader of Majelis Mujahidin, a radical Islamic group which played a key role in the protest, said Ahok should be sued over his comments that protesters were paid.

"God said that infidels are liars, infidels are hypocrites and liars. If Ahok really said that he can be sued," Mr Jibril said.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-11-16/jakarta-governor-suspect-in-blasphemy-case-indonesian-police/8030406

Gordon wrote on Nov 17^th, 2016 at 10:37am:

polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 16th, 2016 at 10:23pm: Karnal wrote on Nov 16th, 2016 at 8:40pm: Gordon wrote on Nov 16th, 2016 at 8:14pm: Wow did anyone's watch 730rpt? I did. The thesis was that the imams are going for the governor because he's an anti-corruption crusader. They paid the protesters 50,000 rupiah to go to FD's demo. Islam or corruption? Corruption or Islam? Questions questions. "Protester" who was paid ~US $20 to attend November 4 rally admits he will vote for Ahok. https://youtu.be/0LcKNE34i1Q Who to believe, who to believe..... Abu Jibril, the leader of Majelis Mujahidin, a radical Islamic group which played a key role in the protest, said Ahok should be sued over his comments that protesters were paid. "God said that infidels are liars, infidels are hypocrites and liars. If Ahok really said that he can be sued," Mr Jibril said. http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-11-16/jakarta-governor-suspect-in-blasphemy-case-indonesian-police/8030406

Sounds like the brainwashing John was trying to blame this all on, in yet another of his ridiculous attempts to divert the blame away from Islam.


John Smith wrote on Nov 16^th, 2016 at 8:33pm:

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Nov 16th, 2016 at 8:27pm: Ok and where has their dickheadeness come from? it comes from their stupidity and brainwashing .. it's easy to try and blame the koran, but that's a cop out. I'm not sure if you noticed it or not but there are millions upon millions of muslims that read the same Koran, that don't resort to violence  ...

Gordon wrote on Nov 17^th, 2016 at 10:37am:

Who to believe, who to believe..... Abu Jibril, the leader of Majelis Mujahidin, a radical Islamic group which played a key role in the protest, said Ahok should be sued over his comments that protesters were paid. "God said that infidels are liars, infidels are hypocrites and liars. If Ahok really said that he can be sued," Mr Jibril said.

And as Yadda never tires of reminding us - muslims have a religious duty to lie and deceive the infidel. He'll even cite you the ahadith and verses that command this.

who to believe indeed eh.

polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 17^th, 2016 at 3:25pm:

Gordon wrote on Nov 17th, 2016 at 10:37am: Who to believe, who to believe..... Abu Jibril, the leader of Majelis Mujahidin, a radical Islamic group which played a key role in the protest, said Ahok should be sued over his comments that protesters were paid. "God said that infidels are liars, infidels are hypocrites and liars. If Ahok really said that he can be sued," Mr Jibril said. And as Yadda never tires of reminding us - muslims have a religious duty to lie and deceive the infidel. He'll even cite you the ahadith and verses that command this. who to believe indeed eh.

I think we all get there is a political component at work here, but this strategy would be a non starter if it were not for the depth of religious nutjobs prepared to run with it. It was the Imams who started the ball rolling.

Maybe if he wasn't a Christian they could have just accused him of buggery, Anwar style?

Gordon, if Ahok gets elected in February in an overwhelmingly muslim city - as he is widely tipped to be - would you be so bold to acknowledge it as mainstream, tolerant and secular Indonesian Islam triumphing over a small, but noisy fringe element - and refusing to cower to its bullying?

I know its too much to ask of FD. 

freediver wrote on Nov 17^th, 2016 at 12:38pm:

in yet another of his ridiculous attempts to divert the blame away from Islam.

I haven't tried to divert anything. I'm just not simple enough to think 'it's the book' is the answer to every wrong.

You keep up the good work though, you're doing a great job of getting it wrong

polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 17^th, 2016 at 3:47pm:

Gordon, if Ahok gets elected in February in an overwhelmingly muslim city - as he is widely tipped to be - would you be so bold to acknowledge it as mainstream, tolerant and secular Indonesian Islam triumphing over a small, but noisy fringe element - and refusing to cower to its bullying? I know its too much to ask of FD.

To an extent as It's a Jakarta election right.
No doubt Jakarta is way more moderate than other areas.

Gordon wrote on Nov 17^th, 2016 at 4:11pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 17th, 2016 at 3:47pm: Gordon, if Ahok gets elected in February in an overwhelmingly muslim city - as he is widely tipped to be - would you be so bold to acknowledge it as mainstream, tolerant and secular Indonesian Islam triumphing over a small, but noisy fringe element - and refusing to cower to its bullying? I know its too much to ask of FD.  To an extent as It's a Jakarta election right. No doubt Jakarta is way more moderate than other areas.

Baby steps Gordon, baby steps. Once we're satisfied with Jakarta we can then move on to wider Indonesia and look at how nationally, Islamists are overwhelmingly rejected at the ballot box.

polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 17^th, 2016 at 3:47pm:

Gordon, if Ahok gets elected in February in an overwhelmingly muslim city - as he is widely tipped to be - would you be so bold to acknowledge it as mainstream, tolerant and secular Indonesian Islam triumphing over a small, but noisy fringe element - and refusing to cower to its bullying? I know its too much to ask of FD.

You are assuming he would survive the full term.

And besides, what sort of victory is it if he has to constantly pander to the nutjobs calling for his head and take back the positive spin he attempted to put on Islam?


Quote:

Baby steps Gordon, baby steps. Once we're satisfied with Jakarta we can then move on to wider Indonesia and look at how nationally, Islamists are overwhelmingly rejected at the ballot box.

So it is an accident that blasphemy is illegal?

freediver wrote on Nov 17^th, 2016 at 8:21pm:

You are assuming he would survive the full term.

Assumptions don't generally start with the word "if".


freediver wrote on Nov 17^th, 2016 at 8:21pm:

what sort of victory is it if he has to constantly pander to the nutjobs calling for his head and take back the positive spin he attempted to put on Islam?

What did he "take back" FD? Did he turn around and say - actually you muslims shouldn't vote for me after all? I must have missed that one.

He also hasn't held back in lashing out at the organisers of the protest - calling them corrupt and dismissing the entire stunt as politically motivated. Is this how you describe "pandering" FD?

freediver wrote on Nov 17^th, 2016 at 8:21pm:

So it is an accident that blasphemy is illegal?

Blasphemy laws are quaint laws that exist in one form or another in most countries around the world. Even the free-est of countries have archaic, anti-freedom laws on the books. But the measure of a nation's democracy/freedom and secularism is not based on what anti-freedom laws are on the books, but by the extent to which these laws are taken seriously and pursued. And this is to a large degree reflected by the attitudes of the wider public. But as we see so often in many places, not just Indonesia, and not just Islamic, such laws will always be cynically exploited for political purposes. You insist this is all about Islam - about a fanatical group of faithful vying for blood for purely religious reasons. Yet if you add up all the elements - the faux outrage, the bribing and the cleaning up of corruption - its not a stretch at all to suggest this is merely a cynical use of a religious law for essentially non-religious purposes (ignoring for a moment your predictable attempts to redefine Islam to the absurdly meaningless - eg corruption and stealing is a specific tenet of Islam)

Yes its unfortunate that there is this sort of occasional regression in Indonesian politics, but it misses the bigger picture: successive election results and the makeup of the national parliament - where even moderate Islamic parties are not mainstream, and hardline Islamists parties (such as the nutters who organised this protest) are outright rejected - is whats really important in terms of how tolerant and secular this particular Islamic society really is.

Tens of thousands of worshippers have gathered at mosques, churches and temples in Jakarta and at the national monument to pray for unity and peace, as tensions simmer over blasphemy charges against the Christian and ethnic Chinese governor.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-11-18/worshippers-gather-to-pray-for-peace-in-jakarta/8038848

this can't be right,  Muslims praying for peace? who ever heard of such a thing

they must be mistaken, right FD?

John Smith wrote on Nov 18^th, 2016 at 5:04pm:

Tens of thousands of worshippers have gathered at mosques, churches and temples in Jakarta and at the national monument to pray for unity and peace, as tensions simmer over blasphemy charges against the Christian and ethnic Chinese governor. http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-11-18/worshippers-gather-to-pray-for-peace-in-jakarta/8038848 this can't be right,  Muslims praying for peace? who ever heard of such a thing they must be mistaken, right FD?

Shurely shome mishtake.

Google: Taqiyya.

Karnal wrote on Nov 18^th, 2016 at 7:06pm:

John Smith wrote on Nov 18th, 2016 at 5:04pm: Tens of thousands of worshippers have gathered at mosques, churches and temples in Jakarta and at the national monument to pray for unity and peace, as tensions simmer over blasphemy charges against the Christian and ethnic Chinese governor. http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-11-18/worshippers-gather-to-pray-for-peace-in-jakarta/8038848 this can't be right,  Muslims praying for peace? who ever heard of such a thing they must be mistaken, right FD? Shurely shome mishtake. Google: Taqiyya.

Yeah, I agree. Probably two obscure mosques and the rest are the Christians and Buddhists.

Do you have the break-down of that 'tens of thousands of worshippers"?  It would be hardly any Muslims - they wouldn't dare.

polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 18^th, 2016 at 1:18pm:

Yes its unfortunate that there is this sort of occasional regression in Indonesian politics, but it misses the bigger picture: successive election results and the makeup of the national parliament - where even moderate Islamic parties are not mainstream, and hardline Islamists parties (such as the nutters who organised this protest) are outright rejected - is whats really important in terms of how tolerant and secular this particular Islamic society really is.

This is why Trump won.



What would you think if there was a protest of 100,000 Australians demanding that, say, Waleed Aly be jailed for treason and slandering Australians as racists?

Would you still call Australia a "tolerant and secular" society the way you are, amazingly dishonestly, characterising Indonesia??

Quote:

He also hasn't held back in lashing out at the organisers of the protest - calling them corrupt and dismissing the entire stunt as politically motivated. Is this how you describe "pandering" FD?

Again Gandalf, the protestors were calling for his head because of what he said about Islam. Of course he is going to make it about anything but Islam. Criticising corruption etc does not mean he was not swayed by the threats to his life. Why do you keep dodging this point?


Quote:

Blasphemy laws are quaint laws that exist in one form or another in most countries around the world. Even the free-est of countries have archaic, anti-freedom laws on the books. But the measure of a nation's democracy/freedom and secularism is not based on what anti-freedom laws are on the books, but by the extent to which these laws are taken seriously and pursued. And this is to a large degree reflected by the attitudes of the wider public. But as we see so often in many places, not just Indonesia, and not just Islamic, such laws will always be cynically exploited for political purposes. You insist this is all about Islam - about a fanatical group of faithful vying for blood for purely religious reasons. Yet if you add up all the elements - the faux outrage, the bribing and the cleaning up of corruption - its not a stretch at all to suggest this is merely a cynical use of a religious law for essentially non-religious purposes (ignoring for a moment your predictable attempts to redefine Islam to the absurdly meaningless - eg corruption and stealing is a specific tenet of Islam)

You are doing a good job of telling the difference between religion and politics. In another recent thread you were unable to make the distinction. Muhammed himself, and his successors, cynically exploited religion for political gain.

BTW, having blasphemy laws "on the books" is a far cry from 150 000 people protesting against freedom of speech


Quote:

Yes its unfortunate that there is this sort of occasional regression in Indonesian politics, but it misses the bigger picture: successive election results and the makeup of the national parliament - where even moderate Islamic parties are not mainstream, and hardline Islamists parties (such as the nutters who organised this protest) are outright rejected - is whats really important in terms of how tolerant and secular this particular Islamic society really is.

And yet they still enforce blasphemy laws, and people are still afraid of the mob. Islam is fairly young in Indonesia, but it is still doing what Islam has done further west.


Quote:

Tens of thousands of worshippers have gathered at mosques, churches and temples in Jakarta and at the national monument to pray for unity and peace, as tensions simmer over blasphemy charges against the Christian and ethnic Chinese governor.

So, less in total than the number that attended the protest? Did freedom of speech get a mention anywhere?

Pres Joko has warned this issue could tear Indonesia apart. Re ABCTV news

Gordon wrote on Nov 18^th, 2016 at 8:26pm:

Pres Joko has warned this issue could tear Indonesia apart. Re ABCTV news

I'll let you in on a secret, dear. Indonesia is already torn apart. It's the job of the governors and presidents and military to keep such a vast, multicultural archipelago together.

Civilisation is a thin veneer, no?

Karnal wrote on Nov 18^th, 2016 at 9:06pm:

Gordon wrote on Nov 18th, 2016 at 8:26pm: Pres Joko has warned this issue could tear Indonesia apart. Re ABCTV news I'll let you in on a secret, dear. Indonesia is already torn apart. It's the job of the governors and presidents and military to keep such a vast, multicultural archipelago together. Civilisation is a thin veneer, no?

A thin veneer of democracy over an Islamic theocracy?  Yuck.

Gordon wrote on Nov 18^th, 2016 at 10:21pm:

Karnal wrote on Nov 18th, 2016 at 9:06pm: Gordon wrote on Nov 18th, 2016 at 8:26pm: Pres Joko has warned this issue could tear Indonesia apart. Re ABCTV news I'll let you in on a secret, dear. Indonesia is already torn apart. It's the job of the governors and presidents and military to keep such a vast, multicultural archipelago together. Civilisation is a thin veneer, no? A thin veneer of democracy over an Islamic theocracy?  Yuck.

Oh, indeed, Islamic, Hindu, Christian, Animist, all.

Miam miam, no?

Karnal wrote on Nov 18^th, 2016 at 10:34pm:

Gordon wrote on Nov 18th, 2016 at 10:21pm: Karnal wrote on Nov 18th, 2016 at 9:06pm: Gordon wrote on Nov 18th, 2016 at 8:26pm: Pres Joko has warned this issue could tear Indonesia apart. Re ABCTV news I'll let you in on a secret, dear. Indonesia is already torn apart. It's the job of the governors and presidents and military to keep such a vast, multicultural archipelago together. Civilisation is a thin veneer, no? A thin veneer of democracy over an Islamic theocracy?  Yuck. Oh, indeed, Islamic, Hindu, Christian, Animist, all. Miam miam, no?

Some systems see more happy to defer to secular democracy.
All things aren't equal.

Gordon wrote on Nov 19^th, 2016 at 10:52am:

Karnal wrote on Nov 18th, 2016 at 10:34pm: Gordon wrote on Nov 18th, 2016 at 10:21pm: Karnal wrote on Nov 18th, 2016 at 9:06pm: Gordon wrote on Nov 18th, 2016 at 8:26pm: Pres Joko has warned this issue could tear Indonesia apart. Re ABCTV news I'll let you in on a secret, dear. Indonesia is already torn apart. It's the job of the governors and presidents and military to keep such a vast, multicultural archipelago together. Civilisation is a thin veneer, no? A thin veneer of democracy over an Islamic theocracy?  Yuck. Oh, indeed, Islamic, Hindu, Christian, Animist, all. Miam miam, no? Some systems see more happy to defer to secular democracy. All things aren't equal.

Which ones, Gordon? We'll compare and contrast, shall we?

Fiji
Zimbabwe
Tibet
The Cocos Islands
French Guyana
Indonesia

Karnal wrote on Nov 19^th, 2016 at 12:18pm:

Gordon wrote on Nov 19th, 2016 at 10:52am: Karnal wrote on Nov 18th, 2016 at 10:34pm: Gordon wrote on Nov 18th, 2016 at 10:21pm: Karnal wrote on Nov 18th, 2016 at 9:06pm: Gordon wrote on Nov 18th, 2016 at 8:26pm: Pres Joko has warned this issue could tear Indonesia apart. Re ABCTV news I'll let you in on a secret, dear. Indonesia is already torn apart. It's the job of the governors and presidents and military to keep such a vast, multicultural archipelago together. Civilisation is a thin veneer, no? A thin veneer of democracy over an Islamic theocracy?  Yuck. Oh, indeed, Islamic, Hindu, Christian, Animist, all. Miam miam, no? Some systems see more happy to defer to secular democracy. All things aren't equal. Which ones, Gordon? We'll compare and contrast, shall we? Fiji Zimbabwe Tibet The Cocos Islands French Guyana Indonesia

Which Muslims country has the most robust secular democracy,  apart from Indonesia which is about to behead a governor for blasphemy ;)

Gordon wrote on Nov 19^th, 2016 at 12:29pm:

Karnal wrote on Nov 19th, 2016 at 12:18pm: Gordon wrote on Nov 19th, 2016 at 10:52am: Karnal wrote on Nov 18th, 2016 at 10:34pm: Gordon wrote on Nov 18th, 2016 at 10:21pm: Karnal wrote on Nov 18th, 2016 at 9:06pm: Gordon wrote on Nov 18th, 2016 at 8:26pm: Pres Joko has warned this issue could tear Indonesia apart. Re ABCTV news I'll let you in on a secret, dear. Indonesia is already torn apart. It's the job of the governors and presidents and military to keep such a vast, multicultural archipelago together. Civilisation is a thin veneer, no? A thin veneer of democracy over an Islamic theocracy?  Yuck. Oh, indeed, Islamic, Hindu, Christian, Animist, all. Miam miam, no? Some systems see more happy to defer to secular democracy. All things aren't equal. Which ones, Gordon? We'll compare and contrast, shall we? Fiji Zimbabwe Tibet The Cocos Islands French Guyana Indonesia Which Muslims country has the most robust secular democracy,  apart from Indonesia which is about to behead a governor for blasphemy ;)

Is that a multiple choice?

Karnal wrote on Nov 19^th, 2016 at 1:03pm:

Gordon wrote on Nov 19th, 2016 at 12:29pm: Karnal wrote on Nov 19th, 2016 at 12:18pm: Gordon wrote on Nov 19th, 2016 at 10:52am: Karnal wrote on Nov 18th, 2016 at 10:34pm: Gordon wrote on Nov 18th, 2016 at 10:21pm: Karnal wrote on Nov 18th, 2016 at 9:06pm: Gordon wrote on Nov 18th, 2016 at 8:26pm: Pres Joko has warned this issue could tear Indonesia apart. Re ABCTV news I'll let you in on a secret, dear. Indonesia is already torn apart. It's the job of the governors and presidents and military to keep such a vast, multicultural archipelago together. Civilisation is a thin veneer, no? A thin veneer of democracy over an Islamic theocracy?  Yuck. Oh, indeed, Islamic, Hindu, Christian, Animist, all. Miam miam, no? Some systems see more happy to defer to secular democracy. All things aren't equal. Which ones, Gordon? We'll compare and contrast, shall we? Fiji Zimbabwe Tibet The Cocos Islands French Guyana Indonesia Which Muslims country has the most robust secular democracy,  apart from Indonesia which is about to behead a governor for blasphemy ;) Is that a multiple choice?

Choose what you want, just don't choose Islam because that's the path away from democracy.

Anything that's good about Indonesia is because of it's leaning towards western democracy and away from Islamic theocracy.

Gordon wrote on Nov 19^th, 2016 at 12:29pm:

apart from Indonesia which is about to behead a governor for blasphemy

stop being such a drama queen

John Smith wrote on Nov 19^th, 2016 at 1:35pm:

Gordon wrote on Nov 19th, 2016 at 12:29pm: apart from Indonesia which is about to behead a governor for blasphemy stop being such a drama queen

There we're signs in he crowd calling for his beheading. Just sayn. ;)

Gordon wrote on Nov 19^th, 2016 at 1:40pm:

John Smith wrote on Nov 19th, 2016 at 1:35pm: Gordon wrote on Nov 19th, 2016 at 12:29pm: apart from Indonesia which is about to behead a governor for blasphemy stop being such a drama queen There we're signs in he crowd calling for his beheading. Just sayn. ;)

there were signs to put Gillard in a chaff bag and throw her out to sea ...

you're still being a drama queen. The max. penalty is 5 yr jail

John Smith wrote on Nov 19^th, 2016 at 1:42pm:

Gordon wrote on Nov 19th, 2016 at 1:40pm: John Smith wrote on Nov 19th, 2016 at 1:35pm: Gordon wrote on Nov 19th, 2016 at 12:29pm: apart from Indonesia which is about to behead a governor for blasphemy stop being such a drama queen There we're signs in he crowd calling for his beheading. Just sayn. ;) there were signs to put Gillard in a chaff bag and throw her out to sea ... you're still being a drama queen. The max. penalty is 5 yr jail

2 questions for ya, Jonboi, please answer to the best of your ability.

Question 1:  When has a leader of a western democracy ever been put in a chaff bag and thrown to sea?

Question 2: When has an infidel ever been beheaded for insulting Islam?

Gordon wrote on Nov 19^th, 2016 at 1:48pm:

Question 1:  When has a leader of a western democracy ever been put in a chaff bag and thrown to sea?

Harold Holt


Gordon wrote on Nov 19^th, 2016 at 1:48pm:

When has an infidel ever been beheaded for insulting Islam?

don't know ... when was the last time Indonesia beheaded someone for blasphemy?

John Smith wrote on Nov 19^th, 2016 at 2:18pm:

Gordon wrote on Nov 19th, 2016 at 1:48pm: Question 1:  When has a leader of a western democracy ever been put in a chaff bag and thrown to sea? Harold Holt Gordon wrote on Nov 19th, 2016 at 1:48pm: When has an infidel ever been beheaded for insulting Islam? don't know ... when was the last time Indonesia beheaded someone for blasphemy?

The question was Muslim. It has precedence.

Gordon wrote on Nov 19^th, 2016 at 2:37pm:

John Smith wrote on Nov 19th, 2016 at 2:18pm: Gordon wrote on Nov 19th, 2016 at 1:48pm: Question 1:  When has a leader of a western democracy ever been put in a chaff bag and thrown to sea? Harold Holt Gordon wrote on Nov 19th, 2016 at 1:48pm: When has an infidel ever been beheaded for insulting Islam? don't know ... when was the last time Indonesia beheaded someone for blasphemy? The question was Muslim. It has precedence.

we're discussing the protests in Indonesia ... there's a big hint right there in the thread title. Answer please.

John Smith wrote on Nov 19^th, 2016 at 2:40pm:

Gordon wrote on Nov 19th, 2016 at 2:37pm: John Smith wrote on Nov 19th, 2016 at 2:18pm: Gordon wrote on Nov 19th, 2016 at 1:48pm: Question 1:  When has a leader of a western democracy ever been put in a chaff bag and thrown to sea? Harold Holt Gordon wrote on Nov 19th, 2016 at 1:48pm: When has an infidel ever been beheaded for insulting Islam? don't know ... when was the last time Indonesia beheaded someone for blasphemy? The question was Muslim. It has precedence. we're discussing the protests in Indonesia ... there's a big hint right there in the thread title. Answer please.

Calling for beheading for insulting Islam is an Indonesian thing or Muslim? I was going to give the Indos a pass and say it's a Muslim thing.

Gordon wrote on Nov 19^th, 2016 at 2:43pm:

Calling for beheading for insulting Islam is an Indonesian thing or Muslim? I was going to give the Indos a pass and say it's a Muslim thing.

this conversion came about because I told you to stop being a drama queen. You knew the topic was about the protestors in Indonesia before you made such a stupid comment. Don't try to move the goal posts now just because you want to save face.

John Smith wrote on Nov 19^th, 2016 at 2:45pm:

Gordon wrote on Nov 19th, 2016 at 2:43pm: Calling for beheading for insulting Islam is an Indonesian thing or Muslim? I was going to give the Indos a pass and say it's a Muslim thing. this conversion came about because I told you to stop being a drama queen. You knew the topic was about the protestors in Indonesia before you made such a stupid comment. Don't try to move the goal posts now just because you want to save face.

If someone hadn't held up a sign asking for his head, we'd not be here. Not my fault!

Gordon wrote on Nov 19^th, 2016 at 2:47pm:

If someone hadn't held up a sign asking for his head, we'd not be here. Not my fault!

http://www.infendo.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/06/225_backpedal.jpg

John Smith wrote on Nov 19^th, 2016 at 2:55pm:

Gordon wrote on Nov 19th, 2016 at 2:47pm: If someone hadn't held up a sign asking for his head, we'd not be here. Not my fault! http://www.infendo.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/06/225_backpedal.jpg

Forward we go. When people upset Muslims, they tend to die.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/feb/15/indonesia-blasphemy-sectarian-violence-philip

Gordon wrote on Nov 19^th, 2016 at 3:05pm:

John Smith wrote on Nov 19th, 2016 at 2:55pm: Gordon wrote on Nov 19th, 2016 at 2:47pm: If someone hadn't held up a sign asking for his head, we'd not be here. Not my fault! http://www.infendo.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/06/225_backpedal.jpg Forward we go. When people upset Muslims, they tend to die. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/feb/15/indonesia-blasphemy-sectarian-violence-philip

this is the problem with fanatics ... of all persuasions

now which law in Indonesia calls for death for blasphemy?

John Smith wrote on Nov 19^th, 2016 at 3:36pm:

[ now which law in Indonesia calls for death for blasphemy?

Sharia law. anything else I can school you on? (yet again)

Gordon wrote on Nov 19^th, 2016 at 1:33pm:

Karnal wrote on Nov 19th, 2016 at 1:03pm: Gordon wrote on Nov 19th, 2016 at 12:29pm: Karnal wrote on Nov 19th, 2016 at 12:18pm: Gordon wrote on Nov 19th, 2016 at 10:52am: Karnal wrote on Nov 18th, 2016 at 10:34pm: Gordon wrote on Nov 18th, 2016 at 10:21pm: Karnal wrote on Nov 18th, 2016 at 9:06pm: Gordon wrote on Nov 18th, 2016 at 8:26pm: Pres Joko has warned this issue could tear Indonesia apart. Re ABCTV news I'll let you in on a secret, dear. Indonesia is already torn apart. It's the job of the governors and presidents and military to keep such a vast, multicultural archipelago together. Civilisation is a thin veneer, no? A thin veneer of democracy over an Islamic theocracy?  Yuck. Oh, indeed, Islamic, Hindu, Christian, Animist, all. Miam miam, no? Some systems see more happy to defer to secular democracy. All things aren't equal. Which ones, Gordon? We'll compare and contrast, shall we? Fiji Zimbabwe Tibet The Cocos Islands French Guyana Indonesia Which Muslims country has the most robust secular democracy,  apart from Indonesia which is about to behead a governor for blasphemy ;) Is that a multiple choice? Choose what you want, just don't choose Islam because that's the path away from democracy. Anything that's good about Indonesia is because of it's leaning towards western democracy and away from Islamic theocracy.

Well, then you need to put your question like this:

Apart from Indonesia, which is about to behead someone for blasphemy, which Muslim country has the most robust secular democracy?

A. Malaysia
B. Turkey
C. Pakistan
D. Islam

rhino wrote on Nov 19^th, 2016 at 4:47pm:

John Smith wrote on Nov 19th, 2016 at 3:36pm: [ now which law in Indonesia calls for death for blasphemy? Sharia law. anything else I can school you on? (yet again)

Yes please, Rhino. I'd like a question for the test.

Karnal, John Smith, Gandalf are relexively taking the Muslims' side in this.  I bet they do not evn know what the Governor said that sent the Muslims apesh!t because if they did they ouldn't side with the Muslims - unless they are themselves Muslims which is the case with Gandalf. The other two are just useless idiots.

Here's what the governor said:

What I said to the local people of Thousand Islands is that if you are fooled by racists and cowards using that verse in the Quran not to vote for me, then don't vote for me," he said on Friday as reported by kompas.com.

He mentioned the al-Maidah verse because the verse is often used by his political opponents to encourage people not to vote for him. Ahok’s opponents have used this line of attack against him since he started his political career in East Belitung in 2003.

"There is nothing wrong with the verses in the Quran. It was not the context [of my speech]," Ahok added.

His comments were met with protest by several parties.
http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2016/10/07/ahok-denies-he-insulted-the-quran.html

Non-Muslims guy spoke sensibly about how to read the Koran - must be apesh!t time, Muslims!!!!!!!!

So far, Karnal hasn't given an opinion on this. Karnal saw Jarkarta's governor on the 7.30 Report saying this was not about Islam, but his campaign against corruption.

So who to believe? The Christian governor and the victim of the anti-blashphemy campiagn?

Or the Jihadists?

We can put this in a multiple choice if you'd prefer.

Karnal wrote on Nov 19^th, 2016 at 6:29pm:

So far, Karnal hasn't given an opinion on this. Karnal saw Jarkarta's governor on the 7.30 Report saying this was not about Islam, but his campaign against corruption. So who to believe? The Christian governor and the victim of the anti-blashphemy campiagn? Or the Jihadists? We can put this in a multiple choice if you'd prefer.

As always, you have made an awful lot of posts without having any clue. The joy of social work in Rooty Hill, yes?

Karnal wrote on Nov 19^th, 2016 at 6:02pm:

Gordon wrote on Nov 19th, 2016 at 1:33pm: Karnal wrote on Nov 19th, 2016 at 1:03pm: Gordon wrote on Nov 19th, 2016 at 12:29pm: Karnal wrote on Nov 19th, 2016 at 12:18pm: Gordon wrote on Nov 19th, 2016 at 10:52am: Karnal wrote on Nov 18th, 2016 at 10:34pm: Gordon wrote on Nov 18th, 2016 at 10:21pm: Karnal wrote on Nov 18th, 2016 at 9:06pm: Gordon wrote on Nov 18th, 2016 at 8:26pm: Pres Joko has warned this issue could tear Indonesia apart. Re ABCTV news I'll let you in on a secret, dear. Indonesia is already torn apart. It's the job of the governors and presidents and military to keep such a vast, multicultural archipelago together. Civilisation is a thin veneer, no? A thin veneer of democracy over an Islamic theocracy?  Yuck. Oh, indeed, Islamic, Hindu, Christian, Animist, all. Miam miam, no? Some systems see more happy to defer to secular democracy. All things aren't equal. Which ones, Gordon? We'll compare and contrast, shall we? Fiji Zimbabwe Tibet The Cocos Islands French Guyana Indonesia Which Muslims country has the most robust secular democracy,  apart from Indonesia which is about to behead a governor for blasphemy ;) Is that a multiple choice? Choose what you want, just don't choose Islam because that's the path away from democracy. Anything that's good about Indonesia is because of it's leaning towards western democracy and away from Islamic theocracy. Well, then you need to put your question like this: Apart from Indonesia, which is about to behead someone for blasphemy, which Muslim country has the most robust secular democracy? A. Malaysia B. Turkey C. Pakistan D. Islam

Top of the list is Malaysia. Nice. One of their states recently passed a law for the death penalty for apostasy. I stumbled across this interesting fact after watching Gandalf and the apologists offer pages and pages of excuses for why the polls showing the majority of Malaysian muslims supporting this punishment somehow doesn't reflect their true desires.


Frank wrote on Nov 19^th, 2016 at 6:22pm:

Karnal, John Smith, Gandalf are relexively taking the Muslims' side in this.  I bet they do not evn know what the Governor said that sent the Muslims apesh!t because if they did they ouldn't side with the Muslims - unless they are themselves Muslims which is the case with Gandalf. The other two are just useless idiots. Here's what the governor said: What I said to the local people of Thousand Islands is that if you are fooled by racists and cowards using that verse in the Quran not to vote for me, then don't vote for me," he said on Friday as reported by kompas.com. He mentioned the al-Maidah verse because the verse is often used by his political opponents to encourage people not to vote for him. Ahok’s opponents have used this line of attack against him since he started his political career in East Belitung in 2003. "There is nothing wrong with the verses in the Quran. It was not the context [of my speech]," Ahok added. His comments were met with protest by several parties. http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2016/10/07/ahok-denies-he-insulted-the-quran.html Non-Muslims guy spoke sensibly about how to read the Koran - must be apesh!t time, Muslims!!!!!!!!

The interesting thing is that his PC spin on Islam is pretty much identical to Gandalfs. Muslims respond with enourmous violent protests and calls for his head. Gandalf's response is to pretend it is not happening and that the full frontal assault on freedom of speech won't actually affect freedom of speech in Indonesia. I wonder when Gandalf would choose to acknowledge the obvious? Even is his own head was on the chopping block for promoting the wrong version of Islam he would still be apologising for them.

Karnal wrote on Nov 19^th, 2016 at 6:29pm:

So far, Karnal hasn't given an opinion on this. Karnal saw Jarkarta's governor on the 7.30 Report saying this was not about Islam, but his campaign against corruption. So who to believe? The Christian governor and the victim of the anti-blashphemy campiagn? Or the Jihadists? We can put this in a multiple choice if you'd prefer.

Lets examine what cards out Governor of Jakarta has to play. Hey can go with the 'it's a corruption thing' or he can go with 'it's a Muslim thing'. How do you think the latter would work out for him?  ;)

Gandalf likes to quote him going with the "corruption" option as proof that the protests have not affected his willingness to talk about Islam.


Quote:

So far, Karnal hasn't given an opinion on this. Karnal saw Jarkarta's governor on the 7.30 Report saying this was not about Islam, but his campaign against corruption.

So tell us Karnal, which option do you think the 150 000 protestors would go with? Were they there to defend Islam against free speech, or were they standing up for corruption?

Frank wrote on Nov 19^th, 2016 at 7:00pm:

Karnal wrote on Nov 19th, 2016 at 6:29pm: So far, Karnal hasn't given an opinion on this. Karnal saw Jarkarta's governor on the 7.30 Report saying this was not about Islam, but his campaign against corruption. So who to believe? The Christian governor and the victim of the anti-blashphemy campiagn? Or the Jihadists? We can put this in a multiple choice if you'd prefer. As always, you have made an awful lot of posts without having any clue.

As opposed to you making an awful lot of posts and having no clue either?

Shurely shome mishtake, yes?

Quote:

Top of the list is Malaysia. Nice. One of their states recently passed a law for the death penalty for apostasy. I stumbled across this interesting fact after watching Gandalf and the apologists offer pages and pages of excuses for why the polls showing the majority of Malaysian muslims supporting this punishment somehow doesn't reflect their true desires.

A country that had a blasphemy law overturned by its secular constitution?

I see what you mean, FD. Is that your final answer?

Gordon wrote on Nov 19^th, 2016 at 7:08pm:

Karnal wrote on Nov 19th, 2016 at 6:29pm: So far, Karnal hasn't given an opinion on this. Karnal saw Jarkarta's governor on the 7.30 Report saying this was not about Islam, but his campaign against corruption. So who to believe? The Christian governor and the victim of the anti-blashphemy campiagn? Or the Jihadists? We can put this in a multiple choice if you'd prefer. Lets examine what cards out Governor of Jakarta has to play. Hey can go with the 'it's a corruption thing' or he can go with 'it's a Muslim thing'. How do you think the latter would work out for him?  ;)

Muslims vote for him. I doubt blaming Islam would go very well for him, Gordon, do you?

Ahok's been blaming corruption for some time. Here's the comments that got him into hot water:


Quote:

“So it can be that in your subconscious that you, ladies and gentlemen, you can’t vote for me because you’ve been lied to, with Surat Almaidah 51 and the like. That’s your right. If you feel you can’t vote for me because you fear you’ll go to hell, because you’ve been lied to, no worries. That’s your personal call.”

Ahok is clearly blaming his religious knucklehead opponents and not the Koran.

Google: taqiyya.

Karnal wrote on Nov 19^th, 2016 at 7:38pm:

Quote: Top of the list is Malaysia. Nice. One of their states recently passed a law for the death penalty for apostasy. I stumbled across this interesting fact after watching Gandalf and the apologists offer pages and pages of excuses for why the polls showing the majority of Malaysian muslims supporting this punishment somehow doesn't reflect their true desires. A country that had a blasphemy law overturned by its secular constitution? I see what you mean, FD. Is that your final answer?

Let's clear something up.

Karnal on team Islam is high fiving a country for going with secular law over Islamic.  So can you remind me why your on team muz when you're so happy they take the secular road?  Why not just join my team?

Gordon wrote on Nov 19^th, 2016 at 9:11pm:

Karnal wrote on Nov 19th, 2016 at 7:38pm: Quote: Top of the list is Malaysia. Nice. One of their states recently passed a law for the death penalty for apostasy. I stumbled across this interesting fact after watching Gandalf and the apologists offer pages and pages of excuses for why the polls showing the majority of Malaysian muslims supporting this punishment somehow doesn't reflect their true desires. A country that had a blasphemy law overturned by its secular constitution? I see what you mean, FD. Is that your final answer? Let's clear something up. Karnal on team Islam is high fiving a country for going with secular law over Islamic.  So can you remind me why your on team muz when you're so happy they take the secular road?  Why not just join my team?

There are no right or wrong answers here, Gordon. We are all one. I have never left thee.

Karnal wrote on Nov 19^th, 2016 at 7:50pm:

Gordon wrote on Nov 19th, 2016 at 7:08pm: Karnal wrote on Nov 19th, 2016 at 6:29pm: So far, Karnal hasn't given an opinion on this. Karnal saw Jarkarta's governor on the 7.30 Report saying this was not about Islam, but his campaign against corruption. So who to believe? The Christian governor and the victim of the anti-blashphemy campiagn? Or the Jihadists? We can put this in a multiple choice if you'd prefer. Lets examine what cards out Governor of Jakarta has to play. Hey can go with the 'it's a corruption thing' or he can go with 'it's a Muslim thing'. How do you think the latter would work out for him?  ;) Muslims vote for him. I doubt blaming Islam would go very well for him, Gordon, do you? Ahok's been blaming corruption for some time. Here's the comments that got him into hot water: Quote: “So it can be that in your subconscious that you, ladies and gentlemen, you can’t vote for me because you’ve been lied to, with Surat Almaidah 51 and the like. That’s your right. If you feel you can’t vote for me because you fear you’ll go to hell, because you’ve been lied to, no worries. That’s your personal call.” Ahok is clearly blaming his religious knucklehead opponents and not the Koran.

Obviously. If he blamed the Koran, he would be dead by now. At least now he knows better than to use Surat Almaidah and lie in the same sentence, so it's all good eh Karnal. Lesson learned, time for peace and unity again, and shutting up about Islam?

Quote:

Obviously. If he blamed the Koran, he would be dead by now. At least now he knows better than to use Surat Almaidah and lie in the same sentence, so it's all good eh Karnal. Lesson learned, time for peace and unity again, and shutting up about Islam?

I'm not too sure if you're standing up for Ahok or putting him in the tinted apologist basket, FD. Would you care to elaborate?

I see him as a victim of Islam's relentless march against freedom and democracy.

freediver wrote on Nov 19^th, 2016 at 10:20pm:

I see him as a victim of Islam's relentless march against freedom and democracy.

So you're on his side, eh?

What about his level of tint?

I think he should be free to say whatever he wants about Islam without fear of getting lynched or arrested.

Karnal wrote on Nov 19^th, 2016 at 10:38pm:

freediver wrote on Nov 19th, 2016 at 10:20pm: I see him as a victim of Islam's relentless march against freedom and democracy. So you're on his side, eh? What about his level of tint?

Karnal,

So in your universe of 'free debate',       .....anyone who disagrees with your POV [or criticises ISLAM], is a racist ?


Karnal,

In expressing such a view, aren't you proving that you, yourself, are a practicing bigot ?




Dictionary;
bigot = = a person who is prejudiced in their views and intolerant of the opinions of others.

Bigots, are those people who are,

".....intolerant of the opinions of others."

freediver wrote on Nov 20^th, 2016 at 9:03am:

I think he should be free to say whatever he wants about Islam without fear of getting lynched or arrested.

Should he be free to have his views reinterpreted by people in other countries who don't know anything about his political situation?

freediver wrote on Nov 18^th, 2016 at 8:10pm:

Again Gandalf, the protestors were calling for his head because of what he said about Islam. Of course he is going to make it about anything but Islam. Criticising corruption etc does not mean he was not swayed by the threats to his life. Why do you keep dodging this point?

I'm "dodging" it because I'm trying to stick to the actual facts of the case. Its quite possible that he now gets nightmares every night about the threats to his life, which has caused him to radically change his behaviour in some way - but we just haven't seen any evidence to suggest this. Not even you have even attempted to present any. For this reason, this entirely speculative discussion becomes completely pointless. It is also a logical fallacy to insist on a claim by attempting to prove a negative. So yeah, I tend to dodge those - until such time we see some evidence to support the idea.


Quote:

So, less in total than the number that attended the protest? Did freedom of speech get a mention anywhere?

less eh? Oh yes, of course - 10s of thousands prayed at the mosques which is obviously less than the 10s of thousands that attended the protests.... um... wait... 

freediver wrote on Nov 19^th, 2016 at 7:11pm:

Gandalf likes to quote him going with the "corruption" option as proof that the protests have not affected his willingness to talk about Islam.

Close. But no. Its actually that Gandalf likes to see evidence that the protests affected his willingness to talk about Islam - before he takes seriously the notion that the protests affected his willingness to talk about Islam.

Karnal wrote on Nov 20^th, 2016 at 1:11pm:

freediver wrote on Nov 20th, 2016 at 9:03am: I think he should be free to say whatever he wants about Islam without fear of getting lynched or arrested. Should he be free to have his views reinterpreted by people in other countries who don't know anything about his political situation?

Why not?

What an idiotic question - only you could come up with it, you etc, etc, etc...

polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 20^th, 2016 at 5:00pm:

freediver wrote on Nov 18th, 2016 at 8:10pm: Again Gandalf, the protestors were calling for his head because of what he said about Islam. Of course he is going to make it about anything but Islam. Criticising corruption etc does not mean he was not swayed by the threats to his life. Why do you keep dodging this point? I'm "dodging" it because I'm trying to stick to the actual facts of the case. Its quite possible that he now gets nightmares every night about the threats to his life, which has caused him to radically change his behaviour in some way - but we just haven't seen any evidence to suggest this. Not even you have even attempted to present any. For this reason, this entirely speculative discussion becomes completely pointless. It is also a logical fallacy to insist on a claim by attempting to prove a negative. So yeah, I tend to dodge those - until such time we see some evidence to support the idea. Quote: So, less in total than the number that attended the protest? Did freedom of speech get a mention anywhere? less eh? Oh yes, of course - 10s of thousands prayed at the mosques which is obviously less than the 10s of thousands that attended the protests.... um... wait...

You have presented the evidence yourself Gandalf - he is sticking to the corruption talking point and not mentioning the elephant in the room. You just think it means the opposite of what it does. What kind of evidence would you expect? A signed affidavit that he has learned his lesson and won't talk about Islam or the Koran any more?

This is perhaps the clearest case we could get of Islam destroying freedom of speech. All it takes to realise this is empathy, the ability to put yourself in someone else's shoes, rather than defaulting to defending murderous Islamics.

Frank wrote on Nov 20^th, 2016 at 6:07pm:

Karnal wrote on Nov 20th, 2016 at 1:11pm: freediver wrote on Nov 20th, 2016 at 9:03am: I think he should be free to say whatever he wants about Islam without fear of getting lynched or arrested. Should he be free to have his views reinterpreted by people in other countries who don't know anything about his political situation? Why not? What an idiotic question - only you could come up with it, you etc, etc, etc...

Intelligence and integrity again, eh?

Tell me, Frank, which fine country do you come from? You haven't said.

Is it anywhere near Jakarta?

polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 18^th, 2016 at 1:18pm:

freediver wrote on Nov 17th, 2016 at 8:21pm: So it is an accident that blasphemy is illegal? Blasphemy laws are quaint laws that exist in one form or another in most countries around the world. Even the free-est of countries have archaic, anti-freedom laws on the books.

For example? 

And where do you have mobs on the streets of Western countries in defence of such archaic anti-freedom laws??

You are just not genuine, Gandalf.  What you see in Indonesia and Malaysia and the rest of the Islamic world is the incompatibility of free exchange of ideas and Submission. It is a tension that will only be resolved if either freedom or Submission gives way.   And Submission has never given way and never will. You can't be a free and also Submit to a 7th century warlord's ideas of the good life.

polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 17^th, 2016 at 3:47pm:

Gordon, if Ahok gets elected in February in an overwhelmingly muslim city - as he is widely tipped to be - would you be so bold to acknowledge it as mainstream, tolerant and secular Indonesian Islam triumphing over a small, but noisy fringe element - and refusing to cower to its bullying? I know its too much to ask of FD.

Why are these 'fringe elements' intimidating others in the name of Islam - that's what I want top know.

Why does Islam lend itself so readily to such 'fringe intimidations'. Why is Islam a weapon of intimidation in 2016??

You're still not saying, Frank. We need to establish that you're not one of them.

Where are you from?

Karnal wrote on Nov 20^th, 2016 at 8:52pm:

You're still not saying, Frank. We need to establish that you're not one of them. Where are you from?

I've noticed you're always interested in people's origins?
I thought we agreed the container doesn't matter.?

freediver wrote on Nov 20^th, 2016 at 6:11pm:

You have presented the evidence yourself Gandalf - he is sticking to the corruption talking point and not mentioning the elephant in the room.

Err come again?

You are trying to twist this into something in which there is actual evidence that he avoided talking about Islam. Instead of the simple logical fallacy that it is - where you are simply attempting to prove a negative. Like I said, absence of evidence is not evidence of absense.

freediver wrote on Nov 20^th, 2016 at 6:11pm:

This is perhaps the clearest case we could get of Islam destroying freedom of speech. All it takes to realise this is empathy, the ability to put yourself in someone else's shoes, rather than defaulting to defending murderous Islamics.

OK FD, you've caught me in a good mood, so I'll explain it to you nice and simply.

Where you fail here is in your (baseless) assumption that Ahok was ever interested in criticising Islam in the first place. Thats the only way you can keep up this 'modify his behaviour' malarky: ie if he's tiptoeing around the topic of Islam since the protests, he must have been more brave about criticising it before right? The truth is, he merely made an interpretation of the Quran that is perfectly mainstream amongst muslims. So how are his opponents packaging this as blasphemy? I have no idea, but the court case (if it makes it to that) will be most interesting. But there is no reason to think that he was intentionally being critical of Islam, or that he ever wanted to be critical of Islam. I think this is one of your problems FD - you simply can't countenance the idea that not every non-muslim person who is on the side of freedom and democracy is out to bash Islam.

Gordon wrote on Nov 20^th, 2016 at 8:56pm:

Karnal wrote on Nov 20th, 2016 at 8:52pm: You're still not saying, Frank. We need to establish that you're not one of them. Where are you from? I've noticed you're always interested in people's origins? I thought we agreed the container doesn't matter.?

Oh, Frank thinks it matters.

You?

polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 20^th, 2016 at 9:01pm:

freediver wrote on Nov 20th, 2016 at 6:11pm: You have presented the evidence yourself Gandalf - he is sticking to the corruption talking point and not mentioning the elephant in the room. Err come again? You are trying to twist this into something in which there is actual evidence that he avoided talking about Islam.

Yes Gandalf. You posted quotes of him not talking about Islam in addressing this issue. He was avoiding the elephant in the room. That is evidence.


Quote:

Instead of the simple logical fallacy that it is - where you are simply attempting to prove a negative. Like I said, absence of evidence is not evidence of absense.

You were the one demanding evidence. I am more than happy to settle with "oh wait, that's kind of a stupid thing to ask for".


Quote:

Where you fail here is in your (baseless) assumption that Ahok was ever interested in criticising Islam in the first place.

Where you fail is in assuming that I am assuming it. You are making it all up Gandalf. Strawman. You made up this assumption on my part. You demanded I prove a negative, then criticised me for proving a negative.


Quote:

Where you fail here is in your (baseless) assumption that Ahok was ever interested in criticising Islam in the first place. Thats the only way you can keep up this 'modify his behaviour' malarky

Wrong again Gandalf. Let me make this real simple for you. Behaviour is what people do. Not what they want to do or what motivates them.


Quote:

The truth is, he merely made an interpretation of the Quran that is perfectly mainstream amongst muslims.

Do you think he will repeat this behaviour Gandalf? Before you demand a crystal ball then criticise me for producing a crystal ball, try using common sense.

Evidence, eh?

GUILTY.

freediver wrote on Nov 21^st, 2016 at 7:39pm:

Do you think he will repeat this behaviour Gandalf?

do you think that if he is more careful of his speeches it is because of the protests, or do you think it is more likely that he won't want to risk breaking the law?

I think it's most likely that if he moderates his speeches it's because he's a politician and relies on the Muselman for their votes.

FD calls this Freeeeedom.

polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 20^th, 2016 at 9:17pm:

freediver wrote on Nov 20th, 2016 at 6:11pm: This is perhaps the clearest case we could get of Islam destroying freedom of speech. All it takes to realise this is empathy, the ability to put yourself in someone else's shoes, rather than defaulting to defending murderous Islamics. OK FD, you've caught me in a good mood, so I'll explain it to you nice and simply. Where you fail here is in your (baseless) assumption that Ahok was ever interested in criticising Islam in the first place. Thats the only way you can keep up this 'modify his behaviour' malarky: ie if he's tiptoeing around the topic of Islam since the protests, he must have been more brave about criticising it before right? The truth is, he merely made an interpretation of the Quran that is perfectly mainstream amongst muslims. So how are his opponents packaging this as blasphemy? I have no idea, but the court case (if it makes it to that) will be most interesting. But there is no reason to think that he was intentionally being critical of Islam, or that he ever wanted to be critical of Islam. I think this is one of your problems FD - you simply can't countenance the idea that not every non-muslim person who is on the side of freedom and democracy is out to bash Islam.

Islam is used to intimidate people.
Even when an infidel says that the Koran should not be used to drive a wedge between Muslims and other, Muslims will use the very utterance to charge the speaker with blasphemy. And Muslims WILL go on the streets and will scream and demand punishment for a man who wrongly, blasphemously says that the Koran is peaceful.  They will not have a bar of that.

Prior to the alleged blasphemy, some Islamic groups had urged voters not to re-elect Ahok, citing verse 51 from the fifth sura or chapter of the Koran, al-Ma'ida, which some interpret as prohibiting Muslims from living under the leadership of a non-Muslim. Others say the scripture should be understood in its context - a time of war - and not interpreted literally.

Koran:
O you who have believed, do not take the Jews and the Christians as allies. They are [in fact] allies of one another. And whoever is an ally to them among you - then indeed, he is [one] of them. Indeed, Allah guides not the wrongdoing people.

What he allegedly said:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MNdJv3ZAqQE

Interpretation, of sorts:
In recorded remarks to a group of fishermen that went viral, Ahok suggested that some Muslims were "deceived" by al-Ma'ida 51. The comments caused outrage.  Ahok apologised and insisted he was not criticising the Koranic verse but those who used it to attack him.

Abu Jibril, the leader of Majelis Mujahidin, a radical Islamic group which played a key role in the protest, said Ahok should be sued over his comments that protesters were paid.

"God said that infidels are liars, infidels are hypocrites and liars. If Ahok really said that he can be sued," Mr Jibril said.

John Smith wrote on Nov 21^st, 2016 at 8:07pm:

freediver wrote on Nov 21st, 2016 at 7:39pm: Do you think he will repeat this behaviour Gandalf? do you think that if he is more careful of his speeches it is because of the protests, or do you think it is more likely that he won't want to risk breaking the law?

He said verse 51 should not be used to drive a wedge between Muslims nd non-Muslims.

But this is blasphemy to the serious sons of Islam, because that verse of the Koran DOES say that Muslims should not befriends the infidels. SO he is up for blasphemy for a supposed 'moderate' interpretation of the Koran.

NOT to divide the world into the House of Islam and the House of War IS blasphemous to non-metrosexual Muslim if you say verse 51 should not be used to so divide the world.

freediver wrote on Nov 21^st, 2016 at 7:39pm:

Behaviour is what people do. Not what they want to do or what motivates them

Your take-home message is that Ahok was cowered by the protests into stopping talking about Islam  - right?

My take-home message is that this is a baseless assumption.

Shall we go from here and desist with the childish semantic games?

polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 22^nd, 2016 at 1:36pm:

freediver wrote on Nov 21st, 2016 at 7:39pm: Behaviour is what people do. Not what they want to do or what motivates them Your take-home message is that Ahok was cowered by the protests into stopping talking about Islam  - right? My take-home message is that this is a baseless assumption. Shall we go from here and desist with the childish semantic games?

Are you asking FD?

polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 22^nd, 2016 at 1:36pm:

freediver wrote on Nov 21st, 2016 at 7:39pm: Behaviour is what people do. Not what they want to do or what motivates them Your take-home message is that Ahok was cowered by the protests into stopping talking about Islam  - right? My take-home message is that this is a baseless assumption. Shall we go from here and desist with the childish semantic games?

Here's a tip, if you want to know what my message is, try quoting what I say.

Islam is the greatest modern threat to freedom and democracy. These protests are a good example of that. Islam is relatively young in Indonesia, and this is Islam flexing it muscles to a dangerous new level. No matter how much you try to squirm and dodge the issue and define it out of existence, these protests will further erode freedom of speech in Indonesia and further entrench the hold that Islam is gaining over society. Islam undermines every society it comes to dominate.

freediver wrote on Nov 24^th, 2016 at 12:31pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 22nd, 2016 at 1:36pm: freediver wrote on Nov 21st, 2016 at 7:39pm: Behaviour is what people do. Not what they want to do or what motivates them Your take-home message is that Ahok was cowered by the protests into stopping talking about Islam  - right? My take-home message is that this is a baseless assumption. Shall we go from here and desist with the childish semantic games? Here's a tip, if you want to know what my message is, try quoting what I say. Islam is the greatest modern threat to freedom and democracy. These protests are a good example of that. Islam is relatively young in Indonesia, and this is Islam flexing it muscles to a dangerous new level. No matter how much you try to squirm and dodge the issue and define it out of existence, these protests will further erode freedom of speech in Indonesia and further entrench the hold that Islam is gaining over society. Islam undermines every society it comes to dominate.

Interesting you avoided the question and are now deferring to grandiose generalities. Lets try again - are you contending that Ahok has been cowered into stopping talking about Islam? Are you having second thoughts now? Why did you avoid it FD? Is it finally dawning on you that its completely baseless?

polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 22^nd, 2016 at 1:36pm:

freediver wrote on Nov 21st, 2016 at 7:39pm: Behaviour is what people do. Not what they want to do or what motivates them Your take-home message is that Ahok was cowered by the protests into stopping talking about Islam  - right? My take-home message is that this is a baseless assumption. Shall we go from here and desist with the childish semantic games?

Well, tell us what is happening in Jakarta around the Chinese mayor and the Muslims baying for his imprisonment.


Explain away.

polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 24^th, 2016 at 5:24pm:

. Lets try again - are you contending that Ahok has been cowered into stopping talking about Islam? Are you having second thoughts now? Why did you avoid it FD? Is it finally dawning on you that its completely baseless?

Yes, that was the vry point of the Muslimprotests.

That's the very point of almost every Muslim protest - to cower the infidels into NOT talking about Islam, Muslims, Mohammed, the Koran.

Muslims go apesh!t to shut down the discussion. If the protest is not enough then comes the shooting.

But there will be no discussion.

freediver wrote on Nov 24^th, 2016 at 12:31pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 22nd, 2016 at 1:36pm: freediver wrote on Nov 21st, 2016 at 7:39pm: Behaviour is what people do. Not what they want to do or what motivates them Your take-home message is that Ahok was cowered by the protests into stopping talking about Islam  - right? My take-home message is that this is a baseless assumption. Shall we go from here and desist with the childish semantic games? Here's a tip, if you want to know what my message is, try quoting what I say. Islam is the greatest modern threat to freedom and democracy. These protests are a good example of that. Islam is relatively young in Indonesia, and this is Islam flexing it muscles to a dangerous new level. No matter how much you try to squirm and dodge the issue and define it out of existence, these protests will further erode freedom of speech in Indonesia and further entrench the hold that Islam is gaining over society. Islam undermines every society it comes to dominate.

No no no. You've completely forgotten that oppressive Islam is the result of interbreeding between Africans and Arabs. Indonesians have a more enlightened, tolerant version of Islam because of their lack of subhuman negroid genes.

Get with the program, FD. You've already agreed this is a most "plausible theory".

Frank wrote on Nov 24^th, 2016 at 5:42pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 24th, 2016 at 5:24pm: . Lets try again - are you contending that Ahok has been cowered into stopping talking about Islam? Are you having second thoughts now? Why did you avoid it FD? Is it finally dawning on you that its completely baseless? Yes, that was the vry point of the Muslimprotests. That's the very point of almost every Muslim protest - to cower the infidels into NOT talking about Islam, Muslims, Mohammed, the Koran. Muslims go apesh!t to shut down the discussion. If the protest is not enough then comes the shooting. But there will be no discussion.

Frank wrote on Nov 24^th, 2016 at 5:42pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 24th, 2016 at 5:24pm: . Lets try again - are you contending that Ahok has been cowered into stopping talking about Islam? Are you having second thoughts now? Why did you avoid it FD? Is it finally dawning on you that its completely baseless? Yes, that was the vry point of the Muslimprotests. That's the very point of almost every Muslim protest - to cower the infidels into NOT talking about Islam, Muslims, Mohammed, the Koran. Muslims go apesh!t to shut down the discussion. If the protest is not enough then comes the shooting. But there will be no discussion.

Frank wrote on Nov 24^th, 2016 at 5:42pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 24th, 2016 at 5:24pm: . Lets try again - are you contending that Ahok has been cowered into stopping talking about Islam? Are you having second thoughts now? Why did you avoid it FD? Is it finally dawning on you that its completely baseless? Yes, that was the vry point of the Muslimprotests. That's the very point of almost every Muslim protest - to cower the infidels into NOT talking about Islam, Muslims, Mohammed, the Koran. Muslims go apesh!t to shut down the discussion. If the protest is not enough then comes the shooting. But there will be no discussion.

I know. Compare G's posts to yours, dear boy.

There is simply no discussion.

They call it xenophobia in Jakarta :)
Are we sure Ahok sill make it to election day?


    ARMED with a loudspeaker, the elderly protester offered to pay one billion Rupiah (US$76,900) to anybody who murdered Jakarta’s Chinese-Indonesian governor Basuki “Ahok” Tjahaja Purnama during one of the politician’s spontaneous blusukan election campaign visits in West Jakarta.

The crowd becoming hostile, Ahok was moved onto a public bus by police and moved to safety.

https://asiancorrespondent.com/2016/11/xenophobia-rears-ugly-head-streets-jakarta/

Frank wrote on Nov 24^th, 2016 at 5:39pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 22nd, 2016 at 1:36pm: freediver wrote on Nov 21st, 2016 at 7:39pm: Behaviour is what people do. Not what they want to do or what motivates them Your take-home message is that Ahok was cowered by the protests into stopping talking about Islam  - right? My take-home message is that this is a baseless assumption. Shall we go from here and desist with the childish semantic games? Well, tell us what is happening in Jakarta around the Chinese mayor and the Muslims baying for his imprisonment. Explain away.

Gandalf is not explaining.  Nor Kandalf, nor John Smandalf.


As brain ross would say: 'hmmm  ::) ::) ::)'.

Karnal wrote on Nov 24^th, 2016 at 9:04pm:

Frank wrote on Nov 24th, 2016 at 5:42pm: polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 24th, 2016 at 5:24pm: . Lets try again - are you contending that Ahok has been cowered into stopping talking about Islam? Are you having second thoughts now? Why did you avoid it FD? Is it finally dawning on you that its completely baseless? Yes, that was the vry point of the Muslimprotests. That's the very point of almost every Muslim protest - to cower the infidels into NOT talking about Islam, Muslims, Mohammed, the Koran. Muslims go apesh!t to shut down the discussion. If the protest is not enough then comes the shooting. But there will be no discussion. Frank wrote on Nov 24th, 2016 at 5:42pm: polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 24th, 2016 at 5:24pm: . Lets try again - are you contending that Ahok has been cowered into stopping talking about Islam? Are you having second thoughts now? Why did you avoid it FD? Is it finally dawning on you that its completely baseless? Yes, that was the vry point of the Muslimprotests. That's the very point of almost every Muslim protest - to cower the infidels into NOT talking about Islam, Muslims, Mohammed, the Koran. Muslims go apesh!t to shut down the discussion. If the protest is not enough then comes the shooting. But there will be no discussion. Frank wrote on Nov 24th, 2016 at 5:42pm: polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 24th, 2016 at 5:24pm: . Lets try again - are you contending that Ahok has been cowered into stopping talking about Islam? Are you having second thoughts now? Why did you avoid it FD? Is it finally dawning on you that its completely baseless? Yes, that was the vry point of the Muslimprotests. That's the very point of almost every Muslim protest - to cower the infidels into NOT talking about Islam, Muslims, Mohammed, the Koran. Muslims go apesh!t to shut down the discussion. If the protest is not enough then comes the shooting. But there will be no discussion. I know. Compare G's posts to yours, dear boy. There is simply no discussion.

Quoting the same post three times- you must be an intellectual.

YAWN...

John Smith wrote on Nov 21^st, 2016 at 8:07pm:

freediver wrote on Nov 21st, 2016 at 7:39pm: Do you think he will repeat this behaviour Gandalf? do you think that if he is more careful of his speeches it is because of the protests, or do you think it is more likely that he won't want to risk breaking the law?

Because of the protesters. They want him dead. The law will vindicate him. Likewise, the apologists here generally concede he might need more personal security as a result of the protests. Why do you think that is John? Do you think a person might limit what they say for the same reason they would hire body guards? Do try to join the dots yourself for once, this is getting tedious.


polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 24^th, 2016 at 5:24pm:

freediver wrote on Nov 24th, 2016 at 12:31pm: polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 22nd, 2016 at 1:36pm: freediver wrote on Nov 21st, 2016 at 7:39pm: Behaviour is what people do. Not what they want to do or what motivates them Your take-home message is that Ahok was cowered by the protests into stopping talking about Islam  - right? My take-home message is that this is a baseless assumption. Shall we go from here and desist with the childish semantic games? Here's a tip, if you want to know what my message is, try quoting what I say. Islam is the greatest modern threat to freedom and democracy. These protests are a good example of that. Islam is relatively young in Indonesia, and this is Islam flexing it muscles to a dangerous new level. No matter how much you try to squirm and dodge the issue and define it out of existence, these protests will further erode freedom of speech in Indonesia and further entrench the hold that Islam is gaining over society. Islam undermines every society it comes to dominate. Interesting you avoided the question and are now deferring to grandiose generalities. Lets try again - are you contending that Ahok has been cowered into stopping talking about Islam? Are you having second thoughts now? Why did you avoid it FD? Is it finally dawning on you that its completely baseless?

My bad. To answer your question, no you are wrong, yet again. My "take-home message" is what I say it is, not what you say it is, and you cannot substitute your own version just because you find my actual words inconvenient. You will find no shortage of specific and general comments about this issue littered throughout this thread Gandalf. Don't blame me if I give you generalisations when you ask for a "take-home message". Blame your own mangled english.


Quote:

ARMED with a loudspeaker, the elderly protester offered to pay one billion Rupiah (US$76,900) to anybody who murdered Jakarta’s Chinese-Indonesian governor Basuki “Ahok” Tjahaja Purnama during one of the politician’s spontaneous blusukan election campaign visits in West Jakarta. The crowd becoming hostile, Ahok was moved onto a public bus by police and moved to safety.

What do you think Gandalf and John? Will he be more careful with his words in future?

freediver wrote on Nov 27^th, 2016 at 8:34pm:

Because of the protesters.

bullsh1t ... wishful thinking


freediver wrote on Nov 27^th, 2016 at 8:34pm:

The law will vindicate him

the other week you were saying the law wouldn't even charge him  :D :D

Gordon wrote on Nov 24^th, 2016 at 9:12pm:

They call it xenophobia in Jakarta :) Are we sure Ahok sill make it to election day?     ARMED with a loudspeaker, the elderly protester offered to pay one billion Rupiah (US$76,900) to anybody who murdered Jakarta’s Chinese-Indonesian governor Basuki “Ahok” Tjahaja Purnama during one of the politician’s spontaneous blusukan election campaign visits in West Jakarta. The crowd becoming hostile, Ahok was moved onto a public bus by police and moved to safety. https://asiancorrespondent.com/2016/11/xenophobia-rears-ugly-head-streets-jakarta/

Gandalf exits stage left.

John Smith wrote on Nov 27^th, 2016 at 8:36pm:

freediver wrote on Nov 27th, 2016 at 8:34pm: Because of the protesters. bullsh1t ... wishful thinking

Could you understand him needing extra personal security in the wake of the protests John?

freediver wrote on Nov 27^th, 2016 at 8:49pm:

John Smith wrote on Nov 27th, 2016 at 8:36pm: freediver wrote on Nov 27th, 2016 at 8:34pm: Because of the protesters. bullsh1t ... wishful thinking Could you understand him needing extra personal security in the wake of the protests John?

sure, so did trump and hillary when they were campaigning .... did it really change anything long term FD?

A blasphemy allegation leveled at Jakarta Governor Basuki “Ahok” Tjahaja Purnama has taken a toll on his popularity rating before the gubernatorial election, slated for Feb. 15, according to the latest survey.

A survey released by the Jakarta-based Indonesian Politic Indicator on Thursday showed that Ahok was no longer the frontrunner.
http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2016/11/26/blasphemy-controversy-hurting-ahok-s-electability.html

Gandalf will still reassure us that Indonesia is a perfectly safe example for the apologists to use to demonstrate moderate Islam in action.

freediver wrote on Nov 27^th, 2016 at 9:48pm:

Gandalf will still reassure us that Indonesia is a perfectly safe example for the apologists to use to demonstrate moderate Islam in action.

Free people and people who respect freedoms [and their liberty] [AND, people who respect the freedoms and liberty of others] cannot live can NEVER live peacefully with moslems [or vis-versa].

Why is that so ?

Because the freedoms and rights [i.e. the right to choose], is offensive to all moslems.

Because the freedoms and liberty of people who are not moslems, will always clash with the imperatives of ISLAMIC culture !

Because it is an IMMUTABLE article of faith, to every moslem,         ....that all men must be submissive to ISLAM and submissive to its laws and regulations about living.

Period.




Yadda said.....
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1472690111/0#0

Quote:

QUESTION; Is it reasonable that moslems living in Australia [and that moslems should come to Australia], being the representatives of a foreign and hostile cultural entity [ISLAM], a cultural entity which expresses hostility towards many of the rights and freedoms which Australians actually cherish [e.g. freedom of speech, freedom of religion, the right to marry a person of your own choosing, the right to lawfully associate with persons of your own choosing, etc, etc], ......and that those persons [moslems] should try to change, regulate and restrict what Australians should be permitted to speak about ? Specifically, the right to speak about something, which encompasses a topic which moslems claim, offends the sensibilities, of the moslem.     !!! . "O ye who believe! Ask not questions about things which, if made plain to you, may cause you trouble..... Some people before you did ask such questions, and on that account lost their faith." Koran 5.101, 102 "We sent not a messenger, but to be obeyed..........they ['believers'] can have no (real) Faith, until they make thee judge in all disputes between them, and find in their souls no resistance against Thy decisions, but accept them with the fullest conviction." Koran 4.64, 65 "O ye who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the messenger [i.e. the clerics], and make not vain your deeds!" Koran 47:33

John Smith wrote on Nov 27^th, 2016 at 8:51pm:

freediver wrote on Nov 27th, 2016 at 8:49pm: John Smith wrote on Nov 27th, 2016 at 8:36pm: freediver wrote on Nov 27th, 2016 at 8:34pm: Because of the protesters. bullsh1t ... wishful thinking Could you understand him needing extra personal security in the wake of the protests John? sure, so did trump and hillary when they were campaigning .... did it really change anything long term FD?

Neither Hillary nor Trump are entirely free to wander the streets of the US. That may not be a big change. Ahok however is no longer free to talk about Islam the way he used to, and there will be plenty more Indonesians feeling pressured to limit what they say about Islam.

That you cannot see the difference, or appreciate the change, only demonstrates the willingness of the apologists to deny reality in order to facilitate Islam's agenda of destroying freedom unchallenged.

freediver wrote on Nov 28^th, 2016 at 12:25pm:

Neither Hillary nor Trump are entirely free to wander the streets of the US. That may not be a big change

But Ahok hiring an extra body guard is a big change?  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

freediver wrote on Nov 28^th, 2016 at 12:25pm:

.....you cannot see the difference, or appreciate the change, only demonstrates the willingness of the apologists to deny reality in order to facilitate Islam's agenda of destroying freedom unchallenged.

If one wishes to enslave people, constrain their capacity for independent thought - not their hands; for the chain of dependence is incomparably stronger than the chain of iron.
   - from, Law v Freedom


If you are breathing, and you won't be beaten,     .....then you can't be beaten, while breath remains within you.

We can die [and we will die],      ....but what free man would willingly surrender his life, and the lives of his loved ones, to a philosophy whose followers are avowed LIARS [treaty-breakers / covenant-breakers], thieves, rapists and murderers ?




.




"....he who attempts to get another man into his absolute power does thereby put himself into a state of war with him;.....

......For I have reason to conclude that he who would get me into his power without my consent would use me as he pleased when he had got me there, and destroy me too when he had a fancy to it;"




Natural Law....


Quote:

"16.  The state of war is a state of enmity and destruction; and therefore declaring by word or action, not a passionate and hasty, but sedate, settled design upon another man's life puts him in a state of war with him against whom he has declared such an intention, and so has exposed his life to the other's power to be taken away by him, or any one that joins with him in his defence, and espouses his quarrel; it being reasonable and just I should have a right to destroy that which threatens me with destruction; for by the fundamental law of Nature, man being to be preserved as much as possible, when all cannot be preserved, the safety of the innocent is to be preferred, and one may destroy a man who makes war upon him, or has discovered an enmity to his being, for the same reason that he may kill a wolf or a lion, because they are not under the ties of the common law of reason, have no other rule but that of force and violence, and so may be treated as a beast of prey, those dangerous and noxious creatures that will be sure to destroy him whenever he falls into their power.  17.  And hence it is that he who attempts to get another man into his absolute power does thereby put himself into a state of war with him; it being to be understood as a declaration of a design upon his life. For I have reason to conclude that he who would get me into his power without my consent would use me as he pleased when he had got me there, and destroy me too when he had a fancy to it; for nobody can desire to have me in his absolute power unless it be to compel me by force to that which is against the right of my freedom- i.e.  make me a slave..." Of the State of War

- John Locke (1632-1704)

Update:

JAKARTA - The fate of Jakarta Governor Basuki Tjahaja Purnama, who is facing charges for insulting Islam, is now in the hands of the Attorney-General's Office (AGO).

Police Chief Tito Karnavian confirmed on Monday (Nov 28) that investigators have completed their probe and handed over the case to state prosecutors last Friday.

The AGO will now have two weeks to study the police findings and decide if the governor, better known by his nickname Ahok, should answer to the charges in court.

The 826-page case dossier contained interviews police investigators conducted with the Chinese-Christian politician as well as some 40 other witnesses, including various experts in linguistics, religion as well as criminal law.

Deputy Attorney-General for Crimes, Mr Noor Rachmad, told Antara news on Friday that his unit will study the case and decide if it has met the requirements under Indonesia's Criminal Code for Ahok to be brought before the court.

"I cannot say how many days it will take exactly, but we will do it as soon as possible," said Mr Noor Rachmad when asked when a decision would be taken by the AGO.

The blasphemy offence against Ahok carries a maximum jail term of five years.

Ahok is seeking to be re-elected as Jakarta governor in February next year. He and his running mate Djarot Saiful Hidayat are backed by the ruling Indonesian Democratic Party - Struggle (PDI-P) as well as a strong coalition of political parties, including Golkar, Indonesia's second largest party after the PDI-P.

They are up against the Gerindra Party pair of former education minister Anies Baswedan and businessman Sandiaga Uno, and former military officer Agus Harimurti Yudhoyono - son of former president Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono - and veteran bureaucrat Sylviana Murni.

Ahok was a shoo-in for re-election until a video clip of him talking to a group of constituents in September was posted online. In the video, he was alleged to have told them not to be misled by his opponents who cited a verse in the Quran to urge Muslims not to vote for a non-Muslim.

He has since apologised for his remarks but that did not stop some Muslim groups as well as the hardline Islamic Defenders Front (FPI) from staging a large-scale protests to call for his arrest earlier this month, which followed a smaller street march in October.

Despite the ongoing probe against Ahok, a third rally is being planned by the FPI on Dec 2. Police have said they detected a hidden agenda to overthrow the government led by President Joko Widodo, a close ally of Ahok, through these demonstrations.

Last Wednesday, the police charged private school lecturer Buni Yani, who had uploaded the video of Ahok, for inciting hatred. "Buni Yani has spread hate and triggered public conflict," said Jakarta police spokesman Awi Setiyono.

If found guilty, Buni may face a maximum six-year jail term.


http://www.straitstimes.com/asia/se-asia/attorney-general-to-decide-if-jakarta-governor-ahok-should-face-blasphemy-charges-in

freediver wrote on Nov 27^th, 2016 at 8:34pm:

My bad. To answer your question, no you are wrong, yet again. My "take-home message" is what I say it is, not what you say it is, and you cannot substitute your own version just because you find my actual words inconvenient. You will find no shortage of specific and general comments about this issue littered throughout this thread Gandalf. Don't blame me if I give you generalisations when you ask for a "take-home message". Blame your own mangled english.

Forgive me FD, but your "actual words" aren't answering my question. Amazing the lengths you go to to avoid answering this most simple question.

Third time shall we? Do you believe Ahok was cowered into stopping himself talking about Islam? Why are you so afraid to answer? This really is extraordinary. Well, actually no its not really. You do this all the time.

John Smith wrote on Nov 28^th, 2016 at 12:33pm:

freediver wrote on Nov 28th, 2016 at 12:25pm: Neither Hillary nor Trump are entirely free to wander the streets of the US. That may not be a big change But Ahok hiring an extra body guard is a big change?  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

It is another nail in the coffin of freedom of speech at the hands of Islam.


Quote:

Forgive me FD, but your "actual words" aren't answering my question.

Yes they are. Perhaps you should read your question again. If you ask stupid questions Gandalf, don't complain about not getting the answers you want.

BTW, am I correct that you are now asking me whether I believe my own "take-home message"?

freediver wrote on Nov 28^th, 2016 at 8:37pm:

It is another nail in the coffin of freedom of speech at the hands of Islam.

and yet despite many requests, you've been unable or unwilling to substantiate that.  :D :D

freediver wrote on Nov 28^th, 2016 at 8:37pm:

Yes they are. Perhaps you should read your question again. If you ask stupid questions Gandalf, don't complain about not getting the answers you want.

Are you saying its stupid asking whether you think Ahok was cowered into stopping himself talking about Islam? Is a "stupid" question defined as one you are too terrified to answer?

Don't be afraid FD, its a simple yes or no.

John Smith wrote on Nov 28^th, 2016 at 8:56pm:

freediver wrote on Nov 28th, 2016 at 8:37pm: It is another nail in the coffin of freedom of speech at the hands of Islam. and yet despite many requests, you've been unable or unwilling to substantiate that.  :D :D

FD has something far better than substantiation John - he has common sense. And by common sense, we mean inane rhetorical questions.

Here it is again for you Gandalf. It is not my fault if you cannot figure out what you want to ask.


freediver wrote on Nov 27^th, 2016 at 8:34pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 24th, 2016 at 5:24pm: freediver wrote on Nov 24th, 2016 at 12:31pm: polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 22nd, 2016 at 1:36pm: freediver wrote on Nov 21st, 2016 at 7:39pm: Behaviour is what people do. Not what they want to do or what motivates them Your take-home message is that Ahok was cowered by the protests into stopping talking about Islam  - right? My take-home message is that this is a baseless assumption. Shall we go from here and desist with the childish semantic games? Here's a tip, if you want to know what my message is, try quoting what I say. Islam is the greatest modern threat to freedom and democracy. These protests are a good example of that. Islam is relatively young in Indonesia, and this is Islam flexing it muscles to a dangerous new level. No matter how much you try to squirm and dodge the issue and define it out of existence, these protests will further erode freedom of speech in Indonesia and further entrench the hold that Islam is gaining over society. Islam undermines every society it comes to dominate. Interesting you avoided the question and are now deferring to grandiose generalities. Lets try again - are you contending that Ahok has been cowered into stopping talking about Islam? Are you having second thoughts now? Why did you avoid it FD? Is it finally dawning on you that its completely baseless? My bad. To answer your question, no you are wrong, yet again. My "take-home message" is what I say it is, not what you say it is, and you cannot substitute your own version just because you find my actual words inconvenient. You will find no shortage of specific and general comments about this issue littered throughout this thread Gandalf. Don't blame me if I give you generalisations when you ask for a "take-home message". Blame your own mangled english.

freediver wrote on Nov 28^th, 2016 at 8:37pm:

Quote: Forgive me FD, but your "actual words" aren't answering my question. Yes they are. Perhaps you should read your question again. If you ask stupid questions Gandalf, don't complain about not getting the answers you want. BTW, am I correct that you are now asking me whether I believe my own "take-home message"?

BTW, do you still expect me to provide proof that Ahok is not saying certain things?

Well done FD. You once again quoted yourself saying how stupid it was for me to ask you that question -  rather than actually answer the question. As only FD can.

Jolly good, carry on then.

Just to reemphasise, when asked a simple 'yes/no' question - FD "answers" by quoting himself previously dodging the same question.

Why are you so afraid to answer FD?

The answer is right there Gandalf. I even warned you it was coming.

And yet somehow it doesn't include a simple "yes" or "no" - even though the question is a 'yes/no' question.

Would you like to have another go - I'll even repeat it for you:

do you think Ahok was cowered into stopping himself talking about Islam?

Lets see what other creative ways you can come up with to avoid answering 'yes' or 'no' and continue to maintain with a straight face "the answer is right there".

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 6^th, 2016 at 10:15am:

And yet somehow it doesn't include a simple "yes" or "no" - even though the question is a 'yes/no' question. Would you like to have another go - I'll even repeat it for you: do you think Ahok was cowered into stopping himself talking about Islam? Lets see what other creative ways you can come up with to avoid answering 'yes' or 'no' and continue to maintain with a straight face "the answer is right there".

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view2/1977472/bailey-chasing-her-tail-o.gif

Its FD to a tee.

Spends 26+ pages strongly hinting that Ahok has been cowered into submission - then when asked to confirm it directly, its semantic game time. He'll happily spend the next 20 pages assuring me he's answered the question - by quoting himself avoiding answering the question - and spinning endless yarns about how stupid it is to keep asking him.

What I'm curious about though is why the tapdancing in this particular case? I'm actually surprised he would want to avoid confirming what we all know he's insinuating. Could it be that he sees that his insinuations actually have no basis in reality?

I think its worth repeating this masterclass in evasion:


Quote:

Interesting you avoided the question and are now deferring to grandiose generalities. Lets try again - are you contending that Ahok has been cowered into stopping talking about Islam? Are you having second thoughts now? Why did you avoid it FD? Is it finally dawning on you that its completely baseless?

Quote:

My bad. To answer your question, no you are wrong, yet again. My "take-home message" is what I say it is, not what you say it is, and you cannot substitute your own version just because you find my actual words inconvenient. You will find no shortage of specific and general comments about this issue littered throughout this thread Gandalf. Don't blame me if I give you generalisations when you ask for a "take-home message". Blame your own mangled english.

FD doesn't need to practice his usual evasion, G. The evidence of Ahok's submission is his apology to the imams for his remarks.

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 6^th, 2016 at 10:15am:

And yet somehow it doesn't include a simple "yes" or "no" - even though the question is a 'yes/no' question.

That was a direct answer to the question you asked Gandalf, and included the word no. You even quoted it. I have also responded to the one you quoted above. Why did you not include that response?

freediver wrote on Dec 6^th, 2016 at 11:31am:

That was a direct answer to the question you asked Gandalf, and included the word no. You even quoted it. I have also responded to the one you quoted above. Why did you not include that response?

Yes FD - the rest of the sentence was "no you are wrong, yet again".  So just to be clear, your "direct answer" to the question "are you contending that Ahok has been cowered into stopping talking about Islam?" is "no you are wrong"? Do you usually "answer" a yes/no question by telling the questioner he/she is wrong - rather than, you know, the more standard "yes" or "no"? Or are you now saying you really meant "no, I don't believe he has been cowered"?

FD must mean the latter, G. He's now conceding that he has been agreeing with you all along.

He is so desperate to prove that he's answered the question - to the extent that he's apparently prepared to argue that he agrees with me all along: that the protests didn't cower him in regards to talking about Islam. Is that right FD? By "No" you mean - "no he wasn't cowered into stopping talking about Islam by the protests"? Feel free to answer that one by quoting another one of your evasions.

freediver wrote on Dec 6^th, 2016 at 11:31am:

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 6th, 2016 at 10:15am: And yet somehow it doesn't include a simple "yes" or "no" - even though the question is a 'yes/no' question. That was a direct answer to the question you asked Gandalf, and included the word no. You even quoted it. I have also responded to the one you quoted above. Why did you not include that response?

Your "answers" to date:


Quote:

The answer is right there Gandalf.

Quote:

Blame your own mangled english.

Or the FD golden mean:


Quote:

If you ask stupid questions Gandalf, don't complain about not getting the answers you want.

Yes, those are all plausible answers K. Maybe FD can help...

FD - do you believe Ahok has been cowered into stopping himself talking about Islam by the protests?

Is the answer:
a) no Gandalf you are wrong?
b) my answer is what I say it is?
c) the answer is right there?
d) blame your own mangled English?
e) If you ask stupid questions, don't complain about not getting the answers you want.?
f) something else?

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 6^th, 2016 at 3:53pm:

Yes, those are all plausible answers K. Maybe FD can help... FD - do you believe Ahok has been cowered into stopping himself talking about Islam by the protests? Is the answer: a) no Gandalf you are wrong? b) my answer is what I say it is? c) the answer is right there? d) blame your own mangled English? e) If you ask stupid questions, don't complain about not getting the answers you want.? f) something else?

I don't think FD will be able to answer that, G. It's missing:

g) All of the above.

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 6^th, 2016 at 11:49am:

freediver wrote on Dec 6th, 2016 at 11:31am: That was a direct answer to the question you asked Gandalf, and included the word no. You even quoted it. I have also responded to the one you quoted above. Why did you not include that response? Yes FD - the rest of the sentence was "no you are wrong, yet again".  So just to be clear, your "direct answer" to the question "are you contending that Ahok has been cowered into stopping talking about Islam?" is "no you are wrong"? Do you usually "answer" a yes/no question by telling the questioner he/she is wrong - rather than, you know, the more standard "yes" or "no"? Or are you now saying you really meant "no, I don't believe he has been cowered"?

No Gandalf, you are wrong again. That was a response another question you asked. I provided a separate response to that question. This is all fairly obvious if you follow the links back to the original discussion, or the many times I have had to repeat myself for you. I am more than happy to pick this up where we left off, and have tried on several occasions, but you seem to prefer to pretend I did not say it.

freediver wrote on Dec 6^th, 2016 at 6:53pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 6th, 2016 at 11:49am: freediver wrote on Dec 6th, 2016 at 11:31am: That was a direct answer to the question you asked Gandalf, and included the word no. You even quoted it. I have also responded to the one you quoted above. Why did you not include that response? Yes FD - the rest of the sentence was "no you are wrong, yet again".  So just to be clear, your "direct answer" to the question "are you contending that Ahok has been cowered into stopping talking about Islam?" is "no you are wrong"? Do you usually "answer" a yes/no question by telling the questioner he/she is wrong - rather than, you know, the more standard "yes" or "no"? Or are you now saying you really meant "no, I don't believe he has been cowered"? No Gandalf, you are wrong again. That was a response another question you asked. I provided a separate response to that question. This is all fairly obvious if you follow the links back to the original discussion, or the many times I have had to repeat myself for you. I am more than happy to pick this up where we left off, and have tried on several occasions, but you seem to prefer to pretend I did not say it.

Yes, G, you go back through all of FD's posts and quote them one by one so that FD can tell you whether you've guessed it yet.

Some would just answer the question, but that's the cowardly apologist's way out.

Clickety clack, innit.

Trail starts next week.

2 questions for Gandy.
What's your prediction of the result?
Why are police commenting on safety for the trial, what pray tell could go wrong?
http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2016/12/06/safer-place-for-ahok-trial-wanted-police.html

freediver wrote on Dec 6^th, 2016 at 6:53pm:

No Gandalf, you are wrong again. That was a response another question you asked.

Ah sorry my bad, see when you claimed that this was your answer to my yes/no question, it didn't really occur to me that you really meant that it wasn't your answer to my yes/no question. I often make these sorts of funny mistakes. Silly me.


freediver wrote on Dec 6^th, 2016 at 6:53pm:

This is all fairly obvious if you follow the links back to the original discussion

Ah, so first you claim the answer to my yes/no question is in the quotes you pasted in post# 144, now you're saying I have to click on the link and wade through the discussion to find it. Wouldn't it have been more sensible to simply post the answer there like you said you did?

I'm sorry about this, but perhaps you could dumb it down for me even more. Would you be so kind to do one of two things for me?

1. highlight the exact quote of yours where you precisely indicate whether or not you think Ahok has been cowered into stopping himself talking about Islam, or...

2. Far more straight forward, just clarify it for me here and now - do you think that Ahok has been cowered into stopping himself talking about Islam - just a yes or no should be fine.

We have gone over this before Gandalf. I have provided the quotes multiple times. You ignore it then come back in a few pages demanding I answer your question.

freediver wrote on Dec 6^th, 2016 at 8:32pm:

We have gone over this before Gandalf. I have provided the quotes multiple times. You ignore it then come back in a few pages demanding I answer your question.

here's an idea ... you could simply answer yes or no and stop trying to hide behind 26 pages of comments!

We only have 26 pages of comments because Gandalf pretended he couldn't see my first 26 responses.

freediver wrote on Dec 6^th, 2016 at 8:32pm:

We have gone over this before Gandalf. I have provided the quotes multiple times. You ignore it then come back in a few pages demanding I answer your question.

Do you believe Ahok has been cowered into stopping himself talking about Islam? I don't believe you've provided an answer to that. Its a simple yes or no. The closest you've come is erroneously referring to your 'no' in the sentence 'no you are wrong' - and then backpeddling and admitting that in fact was an answer to a different question.

I only persist because you seemed to take great offense when I attributed to you the "suggestion" and "take home message" that Ahok had been cowered by the protests - even though you've spent most of the thread arguing that because of the protests, Ahok will now think twice before commenting on Islam again. Is that not a slam-dunk case of being "cowered"? Funnily enough, you refuse to say. I honestly don't know why you have a problem with this characterisation of your argument - or why its so outrageous to call it a "take home message", and why it causes you to go into such a meltdown - lashing out with classic FD-isms like "my take home message is what I say it is" and "blame your own mangled English" etc. I suspect that as usual, you have simply become sidetracked with your perverse desire for a semantic debate- however nonsensical and irrelevant - and just completely losing the plot in regards to what you were debating.

FD is it the phrase "take home message" that offends you so? Its ok, just think of it as the same as "your point". So perhaps if I rephrase it this way - is "your point" that Ahok has been cowered into stopping himself talking about Islam? Here's what you say FD:


Quote:

Because of the protesters. They want him dead. The law will vindicate him. Likewise, the apologists here generally concede he might need more personal security as a result of the protests. Why do you think that is John? Do you think a person might limit what they say for the same reason they would hire body guards? Do try to join the dots yourself for once, this is getting tedious.

Allow me the liberty to "join the dots" here. This is you suggesting that Ahok has been cowered into stopping himself talking about Islam - yes? Is this your take home message your point you are making in this paragraph, as well as all the other posts where you say Ahok will now think twice before speaking his mind about Islam? Or do you still object to this characterisation of your argument?

freediver wrote on Dec 7^th, 2016 at 12:30pm:

We only have 26 pages of comments because Gandalf pretended he couldn't see my first 26 responses.

What were your first 26 responses, FD?

Karnal wrote on Dec 7^th, 2016 at 1:55pm:

What were your first 26 responses, FD?

Its right there K. No you are wrong. If you ask a stupid question.... my take home message is what I say it is. Don't blame me for your mangled English etc etc etc

freediver wrote on Dec 7^th, 2016 at 12:30pm:

We only have 26 pages of comments because Gandalf pretended he couldn't see my first 26 responses.

why would you take the time to write all that crap when you could write yes, which is 3 letters, or no, which is even less?

Don't you think it's time for you to man up FD, stop hiding behind your gibberish.

FD doesn't even understand his own gibberish. Thats why his only option is to continue on with his inane "its right there" and 'what I said is what I wrote' routine. He literally can't explain his own position because he's long forgotton what his position was. Which is understandable I guess - given how incoherent his "argument" has been all along. So since getting himself back on track and clearing up his position is off the table - his only recourse is to continue with even more gibberish.

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 7^th, 2016 at 3:41pm:

FD doesn't even understand his own gibberish. Thats why his only option is to continue on with his inane "its right there" and 'what I said is what I wrote' routine. He literally can't explain his own position because he's long forgotton what his position was. Which is understandable I guess - given how incoherent his "argument" has been all along. So since getting himself back on track and clearing up his position is off the table - his only recourse is to continue with even more gibberish.

I'm curious. Why do you think FD doesn't want to express an opinion?

Cowering implies an emotional response. His response could be entirely rational, but still result in the erosion of freedom of speech.

Thanks FD - it only took about a month to get something resembling an answer, but we finally got there.

And not just Ahok. Any Indonesian who wants to challenge the conservative Imams with a more progressive interpretation of Islam, such as your style of reform, will now have the prospect of an angry mob at the front of their minds. Given the success these Imams have had in using Islam to undermine their opponents politically at the same time as silencing counter arguments, it is hard to imagine the situation improving in the future. It is a continuation of the downwards spiral that Islam has brought to Indonesian society.

This does not have to involve people quaking in their boots, or whatever other hyperbole you want to dream up. It is just the gradual and strategic erosion of fundamental human rights in the name of Islam, facilitated by the constant cry from the apologists that it is not actually happening.

Looks like Ahok is farqued.

In the blink of an eye, an ethnic Chinese governor who was a symbol of Indonesian tolerance and diversity is now tanking in the opinion polls, a hate figure in mass protests, and a defendant in a blasphemy trial.

On Friday, Ahok's former political running mate, President Joko Widodo, symbolically washed his hands of the Governor by praying with protesters who want his blood.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-12-06/indonesia-justice-system-and-jakarta-governor-ahok-trial/8098182

In court today. Just head some incredible stuff on ABC radio news today where hardline clerics called him a pimple on a pig and if he's not found guilty they'd take to the streets again.

Can anyone see anything other than a guilty verdict?

Gordon wrote on Dec 13^th, 2016 at 7:12am:

In court today. Just head some incredible stuff on ABC radio news today where hardline clerics called him a pimple on a pig and if he's not found guilty they'd take to the streets again. Can anyone see anything other than a guilty verdict?

Such an honest, law abiding and tolerant Cult it is.

And the imrans, so honest and unwilling to accept the mantle of leadership.

All so that they can rule a wonderful world of peace and goodwill.

OH, I CANT DO IT ANY MORE, IM CRYING ITS JUST SO FUNNY.

Imagine Muzzos being tolerant , honest and law abiding.................. :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o

And the case is ticking along.



Former nun turned Muslim preacher testifies against Ahok

Irena Handono, a former Catholic nun who became an Islamic preacher, testified against Jakarta Governor Basuki "Ahok" Tjahaja Purnama on Tuesday, saying Ahok’s comments about Surah Al Maidah 51 of the Quran during a visit to Thousand Islands on Sept. 27 aimed to further his political agenda. 

"The suspect has used his working hours to do hidden campaigning [...] Why didn't he just talk about work? Why should he talk about the Quran, which is beyond his capacity?" Irena said to the judges, adding that Ahok's working visit should have been about fish cultivation, not the upcoming election.

Irena said that although Ahok did not convey his vision, mission and program during the meeting, the incumbent had encouraged residents to vote for him.

Like other prosecution witnesses who reported Ahok to the police for alleged blasphemy, Irena also condemned Ahok's statement, which some have interpreted as insulting the Quran.

“As a non-Muslim, Ahok should not criticize Islam,” she said.

(Read also: Ahok's lawyers criticize witness' background, noting him as Agus supporter)

Ahok's lawyers countered Irena's testimony by grilling her about her educational background, which was later stopped by the judges due to its irrelevance.

The lawyers also brought up Irena's Facebook fanpage which, according to them, frequently attacked Christians. (jun)
http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2017/01/10/former-nun-turned-muslim-preacher-testifies-against-ahok.html

Who needs Monty Python when we have progressive Muslim nations like Indonesia?

Meanwhile, Ahok streets ahead in the polls  :)


Quote:

Jakarta's Christian Governor Basuki Tjahaja Purnama, popularly known as "Ahok," is leading polls in his Feb. 15 re-election bid, despite having gone on trial on blasphemy charges. Pollster Charta Politika in its latest survey released on Feb. 1 showed Ahok, who is of Chinese descent, and is running under the Indonesian Democratic Party of Struggle's banner, had 36.8 percent support, up from 28.9 percent in November last year. His closest rival, Anies Baswedan, a former Minister of Education, was on 27 percent. A third candidate for the Jakarta governorship, Harimurti Agus Yudhoyono, son of former president Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono had 25.9 percent. Another pollster, the Indonesian Political Indicators had Ahok leading on 38.2 percent, Baswedan on 23.8 percent and Harimurti trailing on 23.6 percent. "It shows that the blasphemy trial has had no significant repercussions on Ahok's electability," even though support for the governor dipped during early part of the campaign when he was charged for insulting the Quran during a Sept. 2016 election speech, Yunarto Wijaya, director of Charta Politika said. Ahok's impressive performance in the last two debates (Jan. 13 and 27) has won back Jakarta voters' confidence, he said. "Voters have seen his leadership qualities," Wijaya said. A final debate will take place on Feb. 11. Lucius Karus, a political analyst, said the majority of people supporting Ahok are loyal supporters who have witnessed significant progress in the capital under his leadership. Karus said most Jakarta voters are rational and look at the leadership qualities of candidates more rather than their religious or ethnic backgrounds.

http://www.ucanews.com/news/jakartas-christian-governor-in-poll-election-position/78296

Of course this latest boost may not be enough to get him over the line against an "anti-Ahok" coalition in a 1 on 1 faceoff in the second round.

"This case is clearly related to politics," he said, claiming that out of 15 witnesses who have testified during the ongoing trial, 13 were not credible and fabricated testimonies."

When in Rome?

"Taqiyya has also been politically legitimised, particularly among Twelver Shias, in order to maintain unity among Muslims and fraternity among the Shia clerics. Yarden Mariuma writes: "Taqiyya is an Islamic juridical term whose shifting meaning relates to when a Muslim is allowed, under Sharia law, to lie."

You have to love it when Agus tells people they better vote the right way... or else. :D :D :D
No guessing what his supporters think that means.