Hey Karnal, will you bong brain mate be in Jakarta tomorrow?

Thousands of people are due to move into the capital to protest against Basuki Tjahaja Purnama, an ethnic Chinese and Christian nicknamed ‘Ahok’, who has governed the city since 2014.

They accuse him of blasphemy after he criticised his opponents for referencing a verse in the Koran that warns against allying with Christians and Jews.


https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/nov/02/fears-over-violence-in-jakarta-as-hardline-islamists-protest-governors-blasphemy

Isn't this where the muzzies and their apologists insist islamic utopia is?

I think it has shifted to Turkey now.

150000 on streets of Jakarta :)

[url]http://www.smh.com.au/world/jakarta-protest-thousands-of-muslims-gather-to-demand-jailing-of-christian-governor-ahok-20161104-gsifnm.html :)[/url]

Cuddly Indonesians are demanding the arrest of the governor of Jakarta for saying Muslims can be friends with Jews and Christians.

This is blasphemy for cuddly Indonesian Muslims because it contradicts verse 5.51 of the Koran.  SO much for 'interpreting' Koran in an enlightened way. The mob will bay for your blood.


Muslims can be friends with Jews an Christins???  OUTRAGEOUS BLASPHEMY!!! ARREST HIM!!!!

"The hardline Muslim group, the Islamic Defenders Front (FPI) has called on people across the archipelago to descend on Jakarta for a "constitutional jihad", saying Ahok should be jailed."




Freedom and democracy in cuddly Indonesian Muslim style.

These are the people Australia give aid to every year. They do not share our values. They are tribal, ignorant, and superstitious.

One hundred and fifty thousand in Jakarta and then the other cities.  That's meaningful

I better not ever go there.

I might say the Deficit Mohammed was a murdering, paedophile

Gandalf will be here soon to tell us they don't really mean it.

Gordon wrote on Nov 4^th, 2016 at 11:28pm:

One hundred and fifty thousand in Jakarta and then the other cities.  That's meaningful

out of 250 million? nah, not really.

It's just a tiny minority isn't it John? Nothing to worry about at all....

freediver wrote on Nov 5^th, 2016 at 8:01am:

It's just a tiny minority isn't it John? Nothing to worry about at all....

minority? Muslims in Indonesia ... I highly doubt it. But 150 000 out of a potential 250 million is not very meaningful at all.

Can you give an example of an equivalent protest in Australia?

John Smith wrote on Nov 5^th, 2016 at 8:04am:

freediver wrote on Nov 5th, 2016 at 8:01am: It's just a tiny minority isn't it John? Nothing to worry about at all.... minority? Muslims in Indonesia ... I highly doubt it. But 150 000 out of a potential 250 million is not very meaningful at all.

Apologists will protest it is a minority right up until it gets to 125000001 at which point they seamlessly segue to arguing that it is the majority and thus the people's will.

An apologist will always find ways to deflect, spin, distract, divert any atrocity, any violence, any event the primary principle, Islam cannot be criticised.

Self loathing cultural relativism innit. 

minority? Muslims in Indonesia ... I highly doubt it. But 150 000 out of a potential 250 million is not very meaningful at all.



Just like 88 Australians out of 20 odd million I can see no problem here.

freediver wrote on Nov 5^th, 2016 at 8:24am:

Can you give an example of an equivalent protest in Australia?

Yes, Jones convoy of 'no confidence' was just as big a flop  ;D ;D

Secret Wars wrote on Nov 5^th, 2016 at 8:42am:

John Smith wrote on Nov 5th, 2016 at 8:04am: freediver wrote on Nov 5th, 2016 at 8:01am: It's just a tiny minority isn't it John? Nothing to worry about at all.... minority? Muslims in Indonesia ... I highly doubt it. But 150 000 out of a potential 250 million is not very meaningful at all. Apologists will protest it is a minority right up until it gets to 125000001 at which point they seamlessly segue to arguing that it is the majority and thus the people's will. An apologist will always find ways to deflect, spin, distract, divert any atrocity, any violence, any event the primary principle, Islam cannot be criticised. Self loathing cultural relativism innit.

who is spinning anything? I just don't find 150 000 out of 250million very meaningful ...
you can panic and hide under your bed over it if you like, meanwhile I'll chose not to be bothered by it.

John Smith wrote on Nov 5^th, 2016 at 8:55am:

Secret Wars wrote on Nov 5th, 2016 at 8:42am: John Smith wrote on Nov 5th, 2016 at 8:04am: freediver wrote on Nov 5th, 2016 at 8:01am: It's just a tiny minority isn't it John? Nothing to worry about at all.... minority? Muslims in Indonesia ... I highly doubt it. But 150 000 out of a potential 250 million is not very meaningful at all. Apologists will protest it is a minority right up until it gets to 125000001 at which point they seamlessly segue to arguing that it is the majority and thus the people's will. An apologist will always find ways to deflect, spin, distract, divert any atrocity, any violence, any event the primary principle, Islam cannot be criticised. Self loathing cultural relativism innit.  who is spinning anything? I just don't find 150 000 out of 250million very meaningful ... you can panic and hide under your bed over it if you like, meanwhile I'll chose not to be bothered by it.

Talking general principles John, the numbers don't matter to apologists low or high, nothing that Islam does matters in so far as it can be defended against criticism.

Secret Wars wrote on Nov 5^th, 2016 at 8:59am:

Talking general principles John, the numbers don't matter to apologists low or high, nothing that Islam does matters in so far as it can be defended against criticism.

you're not talking principles. No one is apologising for anything so your whole argument is based bullsh1t

I think 150,000 people rally in any large city is definitely significant!

Redmond Neck wrote on Nov 5^th, 2016 at 9:06am:

I think 150,000 people rally in any large city is definitely significant!

.06% of the population is not significant anywhere

.06% of the population is not significant anywhere


Even if they kill 88 Australians

miketrees wrote on Nov 5^th, 2016 at 9:12am:

.06% of the population is not significant anywhere Even if they kill 88 Australians

http://thestagnantfilipino.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Missing-Brains.jpg

John Smith wrote on Nov 5^th, 2016 at 9:03am:

Secret Wars wrote on Nov 5th, 2016 at 8:59am: Talking general principles John, the numbers don't matter to apologists low or high, nothing that Islam does matters in so far as it can be defended against criticism. you're not talking principles. No one is apologising for anything so your whole argument is based bullsh1t

;D ;D general principles bozo, I am not restricting my comment to just this individual thread, the forum is packed to the rafters with apologist clowns. 

Secret Wars wrote on Nov 5^th, 2016 at 9:31am:

John Smith wrote on Nov 5th, 2016 at 9:03am: Secret Wars wrote on Nov 5th, 2016 at 8:59am: Talking general principles John, the numbers don't matter to apologists low or high, nothing that Islam does matters in so far as it can be defended against criticism. you're not talking principles. No one is apologising for anything so your whole argument is based bullsh1t ;D ;D general principles bozo, I am not restricting my comment to just this individual thread, the forum is packed to the rafters with apologist clowns.

but you are including this thread ...... why? I don't see anyone apologising for anything. Yet you do. You either have comprehension problems , or you do not know what an apologist is

John Smith wrote on Nov 5^th, 2016 at 9:45am:

Secret Wars wrote on Nov 5th, 2016 at 9:31am: John Smith wrote on Nov 5th, 2016 at 9:03am: Secret Wars wrote on Nov 5th, 2016 at 8:59am: Talking general principles John, the numbers don't matter to apologists low or high, nothing that Islam does matters in so far as it can be defended against criticism. you're not talking principles. No one is apologising for anything so your whole argument is based bullsh1t ;D ;D general principles bozo, I am not restricting my comment to just this individual thread, the forum is packed to the rafters with apologist clowns.  ... , or you do not know what an apologist is

Enlighten me John, what is an apologist?

Secret Wars wrote on Nov 5^th, 2016 at 9:49am:

John Smith wrote on Nov 5th, 2016 at 9:45am: Secret Wars wrote on Nov 5th, 2016 at 9:31am: John Smith wrote on Nov 5th, 2016 at 9:03am: Secret Wars wrote on Nov 5th, 2016 at 8:59am: Talking general principles John, the numbers don't matter to apologists low or high, nothing that Islam does matters in so far as it can be defended against criticism. you're not talking principles. No one is apologising for anything so your whole argument is based bullsh1t ;D ;D general principles bozo, I am not restricting my comment to just this individual thread, the forum is packed to the rafters with apologist clowns.  ... , or you do not know what an apologist is Enlighten me John, what is an apologist?

it's not someone who thinks .06% of the population is insignificant :D :D

John Smith wrote on Nov 5^th, 2016 at 9:51am:

Secret Wars wrote on Nov 5th, 2016 at 9:49am: John Smith wrote on Nov 5th, 2016 at 9:45am: Secret Wars wrote on Nov 5th, 2016 at 9:31am: John Smith wrote on Nov 5th, 2016 at 9:03am: Secret Wars wrote on Nov 5th, 2016 at 8:59am: Talking general principles John, the numbers don't matter to apologists low or high, nothing that Islam does matters in so far as it can be defended against criticism. you're not talking principles. No one is apologising for anything so your whole argument is based bullsh1t ;D ;D general principles bozo, I am not restricting my comment to just this individual thread, the forum is packed to the rafters with apologist clowns.  ... , or you do not know what an apologist is Enlighten me John, what is an apologist? it's not someone who thinks .06% of the population is insignificant :D :D

That % only works if You're suggesting 100% of the population in that vast archipelago has the means to travel to Jakarta.  Should you also adjust your figures for the very young and elderly?

http://thestagnantfilipino.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Missing-Brains.jpg

There it is , very predictable.

When your argument does not stand scrutiny you resort to abuse.

John Smith wrote on Nov 5^th, 2016 at 8:53am:

freediver wrote on Nov 5th, 2016 at 8:24am: Can you give an example of an equivalent protest in Australia? Yes, Jones convoy of 'no confidence' was just as big a flop  ;D ;D

So a protest that may have been a bigger proportion of the population than anything we have seen here is "not meaningful"? What fraction of the population have to get out into the street to make a protest meaningful?

Does this sort of thing make you think that Islam is a threat to basic freedoms?

At least the Indonesian Govt took it seriously.
20000 police/military to contain it.

freediver wrote on Nov 5^th, 2016 at 2:04pm:

John Smith wrote on Nov 5th, 2016 at 8:53am: freediver wrote on Nov 5th, 2016 at 8:24am: Can you give an example of an equivalent protest in Australia? Yes, Jones convoy of 'no confidence' was just as big a flop  ;D ;D So a protest that may have been a bigger proportion of the population than anything we have seen here is "not meaningful"? What fraction of the population have to get out into the street to make a protest meaningful? Does this sort of thing make you think that Islam is a threat to basic freedoms?

we don't really do protests in Oz  .... sure, we occasionally get a small mob together from one extreme or other, but that's just for show. As far as protests go we're pretty lame. Setting ourselves as the benchmark is setting the bar pretty low.

Gordon wrote on Nov 5^th, 2016 at 10:04am:

John Smith wrote on Nov 5th, 2016 at 9:51am: Secret Wars wrote on Nov 5th, 2016 at 9:49am: John Smith wrote on Nov 5th, 2016 at 9:45am: Secret Wars wrote on Nov 5th, 2016 at 9:31am: John Smith wrote on Nov 5th, 2016 at 9:03am: Secret Wars wrote on Nov 5th, 2016 at 8:59am: Talking general principles John, the numbers don't matter to apologists low or high, nothing that Islam does matters in so far as it can be defended against criticism. you're not talking principles. No one is apologising for anything so your whole argument is based bullsh1t ;D ;D general principles bozo, I am not restricting my comment to just this individual thread, the forum is packed to the rafters with apologist clowns.  ... , or you do not know what an apologist is Enlighten me John, what is an apologist? it's not someone who thinks .06% of the population is insignificant :D :D That % only works if You're suggesting 100% of the population in that vast archipelago has the means to travel to Jakarta.  Should you also adjust your figures for the very young and elderly?

and what? you might, if lucky, get to 1%? 

If I told you 1% of our population was protesting our superannuation laws, how much sleep would you lose? :D :D

John Smith wrote on Nov 5^th, 2016 at 2:29pm:

Gordon wrote on Nov 5th, 2016 at 10:04am: John Smith wrote on Nov 5th, 2016 at 9:51am: Secret Wars wrote on Nov 5th, 2016 at 9:49am: John Smith wrote on Nov 5th, 2016 at 9:45am: Secret Wars wrote on Nov 5th, 2016 at 9:31am: John Smith wrote on Nov 5th, 2016 at 9:03am: Secret Wars wrote on Nov 5th, 2016 at 8:59am: Talking general principles John, the numbers don't matter to apologists low or high, nothing that Islam does matters in so far as it can be defended against criticism. you're not talking principles. No one is apologising for anything so your whole argument is based bullsh1t ;D ;D general principles bozo, I am not restricting my comment to just this individual thread, the forum is packed to the rafters with apologist clowns.  ... , or you do not know what an apologist is Enlighten me John, what is an apologist? it's not someone who thinks .06% of the population is insignificant :D :D That % only works if You're suggesting 100% of the population in that vast archipelago has the means to travel to Jakarta.  Should you also adjust your figures for the very young and elderly? and what? you might, if lucky, get to 1%?  If I told you 1% of our population was protesting our superannuation laws, how much sleep would you lose? :D :D

I know you want in your heart to believe that Indo is a perfect example of Muslim harmony. Now many Indos are cool...I know a bunch of them... even some MooSlimes, but in the background in Indonesia there have always been Islamist rumblings.

I'm not suggesting an Islamic revolution is imminent, but if you ever get the chance to speak to someone who served in the Signals Directorate and was stationed in Indonesia for about 20 years, ask them how much time and effort both the Indo and Australian security forces put into containing the Islamists.

Gordon wrote on Nov 5^th, 2016 at 2:42pm:

I know you want in your heart to believe that Indo is a perfect example of Muslim harmony

I've never made such a stupid comment in my life. Why would you?

John Smith wrote on Nov 5^th, 2016 at 2:43pm:

Gordon wrote on Nov 5th, 2016 at 2:42pm: I know you want in your heart to believe that Indo is a perfect example of Muslim harmony I've never made such a stupid comment in my life. Why would you?

So you think 150k angry muzzies on the street is nothing. I don't think it's the impending apocalypses, but it's something.

Tell you one thing tho, the security forces would mow them down in 5 seconds if they needed to. The money in Indo controls the generals. Thanks Allah for endemic corruption.

Joko thinks it's something :)

Indonesian President Joko Widodo has postponed his state visit to Australia this weekend after violence erupted in Jakarta on Friday following a rally demanding the city's Christian governor be jailed for insulting Islam.

Gordon wrote on Nov 5^th, 2016 at 2:47pm:

So you think 150k angry muzzies on the street is nothing.

I didn't say it was nothing. I said it wasn't really meaningful ... Indonesia has always had a small problem with Islamic fundamentalists. Every now and then they raise their heads above the parapet, the Indonesians knock them back down and things go on as normal. It's nothing new and it doesn't really mean anything..

John Smith wrote on Nov 5^th, 2016 at 2:43pm:

Gordon wrote on Nov 5th, 2016 at 2:42pm: I know you want in your heart to believe that Indo is a perfect example of Muslim harmony I've never made such a stupid comment in my life. Why would you?

Oh, Gordon's seen an opening for himself since FD disappeared. His new role is telling you what you think - you know, executing gays who do it Mardi Gras-style sort of thing.

Like the Koran, you don't mean what you say, you see.

Karnal wrote on Nov 5^th, 2016 at 5:28pm:

John Smith wrote on Nov 5th, 2016 at 2:43pm: Gordon wrote on Nov 5th, 2016 at 2:42pm: I know you want in your heart to believe that Indo is a perfect example of Muslim harmony I've never made such a stupid comment in my life. Why would you? Oh, Gordon's seen an opening for himself since FD disappeared. His new role is telling you what you think - you know, executing gays who do it Mardi Gras-style sort of thing. Like the Koran, you don't mean what you say, you see.

Hey was your stoner mate at the rally? Was he holding he sign saying the governor should be hung?

Also, what's Joko doing next week?

John Smith wrote on Nov 5^th, 2016 at 9:10am:

Redmond Neck wrote on Nov 5th, 2016 at 9:06am: I think 150,000 people rally in any large city is definitely significant! .06% of the population is not significant anywhere

I think it's time you watched a few minutes of this again.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ry3NzkAOo3s

John Smith wrote on Nov 5^th, 2016 at 2:27pm:

freediver wrote on Nov 5th, 2016 at 2:04pm: John Smith wrote on Nov 5th, 2016 at 8:53am: freediver wrote on Nov 5th, 2016 at 8:24am: Can you give an example of an equivalent protest in Australia? Yes, Jones convoy of 'no confidence' was just as big a flop  ;D ;D So a protest that may have been a bigger proportion of the population than anything we have seen here is "not meaningful"? What fraction of the population have to get out into the street to make a protest meaningful? Does this sort of thing make you think that Islam is a threat to basic freedoms? we don't really do protests in Oz  .... sure, we occasionally get a small mob together from one extreme or other, but that's just for show. As far as protests go we're pretty lame. Setting ourselves as the benchmark is setting the bar pretty low.

So what you are saying is that compared to us, their religion makes them highly motivated to destroy basic freedoms. Can you explain why exactly you are so desperate to pass this off as not meaningful?

Feel free to choose any benchmark you want if it helps you look less silly.


Quote:

If I told you 1% of our population was protesting our superannuation laws, how much sleep would you lose?

If 1% actually turned up to a protest in Sydney, the superannuation laws would get changed. I doubt anyone would lose sleep, because changing the super laws is not quite as sinister as destroying freedom of speech.

Hang the blasphemer, behead the insulter.

Who tells Muslims to do these wacky things?

---

**

"Late on Friday, dozens of protesters attacked police near the Presidential Palace as officers shot tear gas and water cannons overhead. The protesters called for Ahok's death, shouting "kill Ahok" and "kill Ahok for insulting Islam." Some also carried placards demanding his execution".

**

"They had previously quoted a verse from the Muslim holy book at a rally, which warns against Muslims allying themselves with nonbelievers.

In a campaign speech, Ahok told Indonesians that the religious verse did not prohibit them from voting for a non-Muslim. His interpretation of the text is what elicited protests and charges of blasphemy"

**

link

How's that reform coming along Gandalf? Have you mentioned it to any other Muslims?

freediver wrote on Nov 5^th, 2016 at 7:23pm:

So what you are saying is that compared to us, their religion makes them highly motivated to destroy basic freedoms. Can you explain why exactly you are so desperate to pass this off as not meaningful?

I never said anything of the sort. That's a pathetic attempt to reinvent what I said.



freediver wrote on Nov 5^th, 2016 at 7:23pm:

Feel free to choose any benchmark you want if it helps you look less silly

OK, I'll use you as a benchmark ... someone says 'cat', you see 'dog' ... Ut cannot get sillier than that.

Very insightful John. So far you have explained, or at least insisted, that it is "not meaningful". When it was pointed out that the turnout was higher in an absolute sense as well as a proportion of the population than the protests you see here, your excuse was that we don't care about protests so it is unfair to compare them to Australia. I have been to large protests in Australia. They are meaningful and the government does take notice.

The bottom line is that Indonesian Muslims are more motivated to destroy basic freedoms than Australians are to achieve any other political change.

Can you explain why you are so keen to dismiss this as lacking meaning? Or it is just your excuses that lack meaning?

Lord Herbert wrote on Nov 5^th, 2016 at 7:22pm:

John Smith wrote on Nov 5th, 2016 at 9:10am: Redmond Neck wrote on Nov 5th, 2016 at 9:06am: I think 150,000 people rally in any large city is definitely significant! .06% of the population is not significant anywhere I think it's time you watched a few minutes of this again. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ry3NzkAOo3s

How many people have the radical yankies killed with all their warmongering.....???

The peaceful majority in the USA is also irrelevant..... :o

You need to stop verballing me FD, you're not very good at it. Where did I say we don't care about our protests? Stick to what I said and leave your fantasies out of it.

OK, lets do that.I have asked you several times to explain what you mean by "not meaningful" and to justify it in the context of the high protest turnout. What sort of turnout would count as meaningful in your opinion?

Can you do that?

Here are those weasel words from you about the comparison with Australia:


John Smith wrote on Nov 5^th, 2016 at 2:27pm:

we don't really do protests in Oz  .... sure, we occasionally get a small mob together from one extreme or other, but that's just for show. As far as protests go we're pretty lame. Setting ourselves as the benchmark is setting the bar pretty low.

freediver wrote on Nov 6^th, 2016 at 9:04am:

How's that reform coming along Gandalf? Have you mentioned it to any other Muslims?

He's not allowed to ally himself with you, so expect a short break while he takes one of those 'Exemption Vows' that Muslims are allowed to do before saying or doing something that contradicts the edicts of Islam.

It's like that brief 'marrying' prayer they do before sleeping with prostitutes, which is then followed by a brief 'divorcing' prayer afterwards.

It all comes under the umbrella of ...

"Does Islam permit Muslims to lie?

Muslim scholars teach that Muslims should generally be truthful to each other, unless the purpose of lying is to "smooth over differences."

There are several forms of lying to non-believers that are permitted under certain circumstances, the best known being taqiyya. These circumstances are typically those that advance the cause of Islam - in some cases by gaining the trust of non-believers in order to draw out their vulnerability and defeat them".

freediver wrote on Nov 6^th, 2016 at 9:20am:

OK, lets do that.I have asked you several times to explain what you mean by "not meaningful" and to justify it in the context of the high protest turnout. What sort of turnout would count as meaningful in your opinion? Can you do that?

What I mean by 'Not meaningful' - protest is small enough that it won't change a thing

What sort of turnout is meaningful - one that is large enough to make the govt. sit up and take  notice.


see, that wasn't so hard now.

So you think the Indonesian government did not notice the protest?

What about the guy who has 150000 people calling for his head? Do you think he might change his behaviour?

Your excuses and weasel words are meaningless.

freediver wrote on Nov 6^th, 2016 at 9:20am:

Here are those weasel words from you about the comparison with Australia:

only one using weazel words is you .. I'm stating a fact. The Australian population is reasonably content with it's social and political position and as a result people aren't as inclined to go out and protest like they do in many other countries.

freediver wrote on Nov 6^th, 2016 at 9:30am:

So you think the Indonesian government did not notice the protest? What about the guy who has 150000 people calling for his head? Do you think he might change his behaviour? Your excuses and weasel words are meaningless.

Keep trying FD. :D :D

No problem. I'm sure we'll get a straight answer out of you eventually.

So you think the Indonesian government did not notice the protest?

What about the guy who has 150000 people calling for his head? Do you think he might change his behaviour?

freediver wrote on Nov 6^th, 2016 at 9:36am:

No problem. I'm sure we'll get a straight answer out of you eventually. So you think the Indonesian government did not notice the protest? What about the guy who has 150000 people calling for his head? Do you think he might change his behaviour?

no one said the Indonesian govt. didn't notice so you can stop pretending they did.

You said that this protest is not meaningful, but it would be meaningful if the government took notice. Do I need to quote you you said a few minutes ago John?

Do you think the protest might change the behaviour of the guy who had 150000 people calling for his head?

You haven't really thought this through have you John? You just offer excuses for Islam as an automatic response, without any concern for whether it even makes sense.

freediver wrote on Nov 6^th, 2016 at 9:52am:

You said that this protest is not meaningful, but it would be meaningful if the government took notice

did the govt. announce some change in policy that I missed Fd? or will it all be forgotten about in a few weeks time?


freediver wrote on Nov 6^th, 2016 at 9:52am:

Do you think the protest might change the behaviour of the guy who had 150000 people calling for his head?

the guy they were protesting about said he would be more careful with what he said BEFORE the protests even took place, so the answer to your question is NO. He will not change because of these protesters.


freediver wrote on Nov 6^th, 2016 at 9:52am:

You haven't really thought this through have you John?

sure I have ... you just keep hoping to make it more than what it was.


freediver wrote on Nov 6^th, 2016 at 9:52am:

You just offer excuses for Islam as an automatic response.

What excuse have I offered for Islam FD? Enlighten me? Just because you go into an anaphylactic fit every time someone doesn't join in on one of your attempts to muslim bash.

John Smith just admit you made a stupid statement that annoys people.
Because continual excuse making for Muslim bad behaviour is pretty pathetic.
It's not that difficult.

That does not mean you will look like a redneck.

Quote:

did the govt. announce some change in policy that I missed Fd? or will it all be forgotten about in a few weeks time?

What do you think John? Will they forget about it in a few weeks?


Quote:

the guy they were protesting about said he would be more careful with what he said BEFORE the protests even took place, so the answer to your question is NO. He will not change because of these protesters.

That's interesting. If I had 150000 people calling for my head, I would change my behaviour. Would you?

Witness the elaborate mental contortions of the Muslim apologist.

It's people who see themselves as some sort of victim of Western society who are the ones who leap to the defence of Muslims regardless of guilt or innocence.

I'm wondering in what way John sees himself as a victim.

The actions Muslims take is to scare people with direct threats of violence into changing their behavior. It's a theme which has lots of precedent.

With Arabs, it's exacerbated by their 'culture of honour'.

miketrees wrote on Nov 6^th, 2016 at 10:02am:

Because continual excuse making for Muslim bad behaviour is pretty pathetic.

what excuse have I made Mike? show me one?

You do realise that there is a difference between making an excuse, and recognising that a protest will amount to nothing? right? I know it's may be a little subtle for you, but it's there if you look hard enough.


freediver wrote on Nov 6^th, 2016 at 10:12am:

What do you think John? Will they forget about it in a few weeks?

hence my comment that it's 'not meaningful'


freediver wrote on Nov 6^th, 2016 at 10:12am:

That's interesting. If I had 150000 people calling for my head, I would change my behaviour. Would you?

are you pretending you didn't see what I said? he agreed to change his behaviour BEFORE the protests . Given that, what changes do you think he will make as a direct result of the protests?


freediver wrote on Nov 6^th, 2016 at 10:12am:

Witness the elaborate mental contortions of the Muslim apologist.

no contortions ... I haven't changed anything I've said. My comments have been consistent throughout. Perhaps if you'd stuck with what I said instead of pretending I said something else, you'd notice.

Lord Herbert wrote on Nov 6^th, 2016 at 10:22am:

It's people who see themselves as some sort of victim of Western society who are the ones who leap to the defence of Muslims regardless of guilt or innocence. I'm wondering in what way John sees himself as a victim.

I'm a victim of your stupidity.

I think even Gandalf would distance himself from John's spineless apologetics.


Quote:

are you pretending you didn't see what I said? he agreed to change his behaviour BEFORE the protests . Given that, what changes do you think he will make as a direct result of the protests?

That is just stupid weasel words John. He would change his behaviour even more drastically, and your argument is proof of that. Like not venturing outside without a heavy armed escort for example. If he responds so meekly to the criticisms that came before the protest, he would respond more to the message the protest sent.

Tell us John, what do you think about people in a similar position to this man who were considering saying similar things. Do you think that seeing 150000 protestors calling for his head might make them alter their behaviour also?

Are you really to blind to see the obvious implications of this? Why are you so desperate to pass this off as having no effect at all John? Wishful thinking?

You're it now, JS.

You're the new Abu.

John Smith wrote on Nov 6^th, 2016 at 10:38am:

Lord Herbert wrote on Nov 6th, 2016 at 10:22am: It's people who see themselves as some sort of victim of Western society who are the ones who leap to the defence of Muslims regardless of guilt or innocence. I'm wondering in what way John sees himself as a victim. I'm a victim of your stupidity.

You can't hide, John! Come out from under that pile of spaghetti and answer FD's questions!

Does anyone here agree with John that this protest will have no effect on people's behaviour?

You're it now, JS.

You're the new Abu.

Lord Herbert wrote on Nov 6^th, 2016 at 11:24am:

John Smith wrote on Nov 6th, 2016 at 10:38am: Lord Herbert wrote on Nov 6th, 2016 at 10:22am: It's people who see themselves as some sort of victim of Western society who are the ones who leap to the defence of Muslims regardless of guilt or innocence. I'm wondering in what way John sees himself as a victim. I'm a victim of your stupidity. You can't hide, John! Come out from under that pile of spaghetti and answer FD's questions!

Get him, FD.

freediver wrote on Nov 6^th, 2016 at 9:52am:

You said that this protest is not meaningful, but it would be meaningful if the government took notice. Do I need to quote you you said a few minutes ago John?.

Unbelievable. How do people think they can get away with saying this sort of thing?

Herbie and I often wonder why you allow types like this to remain here.

You're too open and accommodating for your own good, FD.  Hopefully you can show them the error of their ways.

I know, Herb. Call me an optimist.

Ban them.

freediver wrote on Nov 6^th, 2016 at 11:25am:

Does anyone here agree with John that this protest will have no effect on people's behaviour?

This protest in which there have been calls for a beheading will act as a warning to all the Christians throughout Indonesia that if they value their lives they should be careful not to mention Islam or the Koran for any reason whatsoever.

Quote: "The Peaceful Majority don't count".

freediver wrote on Nov 6^th, 2016 at 11:16am:

I think even Gandalf would distance himself from John's spineless apologetics. Quote: are you pretending you didn't see what I said? he agreed to change his behaviour BEFORE the protests . Given that, what changes do you think he will make as a direct result of the protests? That is just stupid weasel words John. He would change his behaviour even more drastically, and your argument is proof of that. Like not venturing outside without a heavy armed escort for example. If he responds so meekly to the criticisms that came before the protest, he would respond more to the message the protest sent. Tell us John, what do you think about people in a similar position to this man who were considering saying similar things. Do you think that seeing 150000 protestors calling for his head might make them alter their behaviour also? Are you really to blind to see the obvious implications of this? Why are you so desperate to pass this off as having no effect at all John? Wishful thinking?

Weasel words?  ;D ;D Fine, then show me how he has changed his behaviour!

And I know it's hard for you but can you try to stick to facts.

Lord Herbert wrote on Nov 6^th, 2016 at 11:24am:

John Smith wrote on Nov 6th, 2016 at 10:38am: Lord Herbert wrote on Nov 6th, 2016 at 10:22am: It's people who see themselves as some sort of victim of Western society who are the ones who leap to the defence of Muslims regardless of guilt or innocence. I'm wondering in what way John sees himself as a victim. I'm a victim of your stupidity. You can't hide, John! Come out from under that pile of spaghetti and answer FD's questions!

I've answer FD's questions Herb.

Now, Have you found any examples of these 'excuses' yet? The others seem to have difficulty locating them.

Lord Herbert wrote on Nov 6^th, 2016 at 11:56am:

freediver wrote on Nov 6th, 2016 at 11:25am: Does anyone here agree with John that this protest will have no effect on people's behaviour? This protest in which there have been calls for a beheading will act as a warning to all the Christians throughout Indonesia that if they value their lives they should be careful not to mention Islam or the Koran for any reason whatsoever. Quote: "The Peaceful Majority don't count".

and how is that different to the situation in Indonesia last year, the year prior and the whole decade prior to that?

John Smith wrote on Nov 6^th, 2016 at 12:00pm:

freediver wrote on Nov 6th, 2016 at 11:16am: I think even Gandalf would distance himself from John's spineless apologetics. Quote: are you pretending you didn't see what I said? he agreed to change his behaviour BEFORE the protests . Given that, what changes do you think he will make as a direct result of the protests? That is just stupid weasel words John. He would change his behaviour even more drastically, and your argument is proof of that. Like not venturing outside without a heavy armed escort for example. If he responds so meekly to the criticisms that came before the protest, he would respond more to the message the protest sent. Tell us John, what do you think about people in a similar position to this man who were considering saying similar things. Do you think that seeing 150000 protestors calling for his head might make them alter their behaviour also? Are you really to blind to see the obvious implications of this? Why are you so desperate to pass this off as having no effect at all John? Wishful thinking? Weasel words?  ;D ;D Fine, then show me how he has changed his behaviour! And I know it's hard for you but can you try to stick to facts.

I was actually hoping common sense would prevail and that I would not have to prove that 150000 calling for your head might change your behaviour.

Tell us John, what do you think about people in a similar position to this man who were considering saying similar things. Do you think that seeing 150000 protestors calling for his head might make them alter their behaviour also?

John Smith wrote on Nov 6^th, 2016 at 12:02pm:

I've answer FD's questions Herb. Now, Have you found any examples of these 'excuses' yet? The others seem to have difficulty locating them.

You really should reconsider the role you've taken upon yourself to act as a Human Shield every time some negative observation is made by someone of the Muslim Collective.

Your own country is being turned into a turd-ball by wave after wave of Muslim invasions from the south. Greece too. I'm waiting for a Muslim to do something catastrophic to the Sistine Chapel. I only wish you had the backbone and the balls of my long-time Italian landlord who used to be one of Mussolini's Black Shirts.   

He would flick his chin at you to hear the things you say.

Did you know Mussolini made it a crime to swear in public?

link

I thought English-speakers had a dirty mouth, but we've got nothing on the Italians.

freediver wrote on Nov 6^th, 2016 at 12:19pm:

I was actually hoping common sense would prevail and that I would not have to prove that 150000 calling for your head might change your behaviour. Tell us John, what do you think about people in a similar position to this man who were considering saying similar things. Do you think that seeing 150000 protestors calling for his head might make them alter their behaviour also?

so now were moving from how it might affect Indonesia to how it would affect me?  ;D ;D ;D

John Smith wrote on Nov 6^th, 2016 at 12:21pm:

freediver wrote on Nov 6th, 2016 at 12:19pm: I was actually hoping common sense would prevail and that I would not have to prove that 150000 calling for your head might change your behaviour. Tell us John, what do you think about people in a similar position to this man who were considering saying similar things. Do you think that seeing 150000 protestors calling for his head might make them alter their behaviour also? so now were moving from how it might affect Indonesia to how it would affect me?  ;D ;D ;D

Ah, we have stepped up from deflections to 'me no speaka da englissss'.

It makes you wonder, has John even convinced himself?

Lord Herbert wrote on Nov 6^th, 2016 at 12:20pm:

You really should reconsider the role you've taken upon yourself to act as a Human Shield every time some negative observation is made by someone of the Muslim Collective.

you got all that from my declaration that the rally is not really meaningful?  ;D ;D ;D

the problem with you and fd is that as soon as someone make a comment that doesn't attack muslims, you two lose all sense logic. No one is defending the protestors. No one is apologising for them, No one is excusing them. I just happen to think that the rallies won't amount to anything.

Time may prove me wrong, and if it does, then fine. I'm happy with that, but so far you and FD have failed to support your arguments. The argument that its a big deal because FD would poo his pants if it were about him doesn't really cut the mustard.

freediver wrote on Nov 6^th, 2016 at 12:30pm:

John Smith wrote on Nov 6th, 2016 at 12:21pm: freediver wrote on Nov 6th, 2016 at 12:19pm: I was actually hoping common sense would prevail and that I would not have to prove that 150000 calling for your head might change your behaviour. Tell us John, what do you think about people in a similar position to this man who were considering saying similar things. Do you think that seeing 150000 protestors calling for his head might make them alter their behaviour also? so now were moving from how it might affect Indonesia to how it would affect me?  ;D ;D ;D Ah, we have stepped up from deflections to 'me no speaka da englissss'. It makes you wonder, has John even convinced himself?

so you've still not found how it has changed anything? But you were so sure it did. What happened?

John Smith wrote on Nov 6^th, 2016 at 9:24am:

What I mean by 'Not meaningful' - protest is small enough that it won't change a thing What sort of turnout is meaningful - one that is large enough to make the govt. sit up and take  notice.

John Smith wrote on Nov 6^th, 2016 at 10:37am:

no contortions ... I haven't changed anything I've said. My comments have been consistent throughout. Perhaps if you'd stuck with what I said instead of pretending I said something else, you'd notice.

Quote:

I just happen to think that the rallies won't amount to anything.

Do you still think it won't change a thing John, or is it slowly dawning on you how idiotic your claims are?

John Smith wrote on Nov 6^th, 2016 at 12:32pm:

Lord Herbert wrote on Nov 6th, 2016 at 12:20pm: You really should reconsider the role you've taken upon yourself to act as a Human Shield every time some negative observation is made by someone of the Muslim Collective. you got all that from my declaration that the rally is not really meaningful?  ;D ;D ;D

Yep.

Everything you say is encrypted shorthand for volumes of commentary you don't actually type-up on the board here.

We've long since discovered the Rosetta Stone that tells us exactly what you're really thinking and meaning to say, John. You can run but you can't hide from us any more.

We have our own Bletchley Park here at OzPol Headquarters that tells us precisely the true meaning of your words.

:)

freediver wrote on Nov 6^th, 2016 at 12:36pm:

Do you still think it won't change a thing John, or is it slowly dawning on you how idiotic your claims are?

what's dawning on me is just how desperate you are ... the protests are meaningless and you've put up absolutely nothing to change my mind. Indonesia will continue to run as it always has. You don't need to hide anymore FD, you're safe .... for now. :D :D

Lord Herbert wrote on Nov 6^th, 2016 at 12:42pm:

Everything you say is encrypted shorthand for volumes of commentary you don't actually type-up on the board here.

what makes you think you can read encrypted shorthand when you obviously struggle so much with plain old English written in full format, un-encrypted?

Deflecting as usual. Do you stand by your claim John? Do you still think it won't change a thing John, or is it slowly dawning on you how idiotic your claims are?

freediver wrote on Nov 6^th, 2016 at 12:44pm:

Posted on: Today at 12:44pm Deflecting as usual. Do you stand by your claim John?

what are you thick? How many times do I have to repeat that the protests are meaningless, before it sinks in?

Since its no big deal perhaps John should volunteer to go and address the 150K people and reason with them.

Do you still stand by this claim John? It is perhaps the only one you have made here that actually means anything, and is so obviously stupid I assumed you have been deliberately rephrasing it into something more weasely since then.


freediver wrote on Nov 6^th, 2016 at 12:36pm:

John Smith wrote on Nov 6th, 2016 at 9:24am: What I mean by 'Not meaningful' - protest is small enough that it won't change a thing What sort of turnout is meaningful - one that is large enough to make the govt. sit up and take  notice. John Smith wrote on Nov 6th, 2016 at 10:37am: no contortions ... I haven't changed anything I've said. My comments have been consistent throughout. Perhaps if you'd stuck with what I said instead of pretending I said something else, you'd notice. Quote: I just happen to think that the rallies won't amount to anything. Do you still think it won't change a thing John, or is it slowly dawning on you how idiotic your claims are?

Asia Bibi is on death row in Pakistan for blasphemy, of course the dim witted leftists like to impose Islamic blasphemy laws in non muslim lands by hurling slurs like Islamophobe to silence anyone who is even slightly critical of Islam.

miketrees wrote on Nov 6^th, 2016 at 1:13pm:

Since its no big deal perhaps John should volunteer to go and address the 150K people and reason with them.

http://ci.memecdn.com/7561106.jpg

Quote:

Asia Bibi is on death row in Pakistan for blasphemy, of course the dim witted leftists like to impose Islamic blasphemy laws in non muslim lands by hurling slurs like Islamophobe to silence anyone who is even slightly critical of Islam.

I think you are giving them too much credit. They are just speaking on autopilot.

ohh, I get it ... this is your 'ask the same question a million times' trick. I almost forgot about that one.

Oh, by the way, while we are at it . . . F@#K  MOHAMED WITH BROOM STICK!

freediver wrote on Nov 6^th, 2016 at 1:20pm:

Quote: Asia Bibi is on death row in Pakistan for blasphemy, of course the dim witted leftists like to impose Islamic blasphemy laws in non muslim lands by hurling slurs like Islamophobe to silence anyone who is even slightly critical of Islam. I think you are giving them too much credit. They are just speaking on autopilot.

If it was Christians wanting to execute people for blasphemy the leftists would be squealing like a stuck pig.

If the lefties didn't have double standards they probably wouldn't have any standards.

John Smith wrote on Nov 6^th, 2016 at 1:21pm:

ohh, I get it ... this is your 'ask the same question a million times' trick. I almost forgot about that one.

Just until I get an answer John. It is a reasonable question, seeing as since you posted this you have stuck to meaningless weasel words and avoided discussing the claim at all costs.


freediver wrote on Nov 6^th, 2016 at 1:15pm:

Do you still stand by this claim John? It is perhaps the only one you have made here that actually means anything, and is so obviously stupid I assumed you have been deliberately rephrasing it into something more weasely since then. freediver wrote on Nov 6th, 2016 at 12:36pm: John Smith wrote on Nov 6th, 2016 at 9:24am: What I mean by 'Not meaningful' - protest is small enough that it won't change a thing What sort of turnout is meaningful - one that is large enough to make the govt. sit up and take  notice. John Smith wrote on Nov 6th, 2016 at 10:37am: no contortions ... I haven't changed anything I've said. My comments have been consistent throughout. Perhaps if you'd stuck with what I said instead of pretending I said something else, you'd notice. Quote: I just happen to think that the rallies won't amount to anything. Do you still think it won't change a thing John, or is it slowly dawning on you how idiotic your claims are?

Pretty stupid thing to say, don't you agree John?

This is the re-entry of blasphemy laws through the back door, where newspapers, daytime chat-shows and sports authorities decide between them that one religion is worthy of particular protection. They do so because they take the religion of Islam uniquely on its own estimation and believe, as well as fear, the warnings of the Islamic blasphemy-police worldwide.

freediver wrote on Nov 6^th, 2016 at 1:45pm:

Just until I get an answer John

John Smith wrote on Nov 6^th, 2016 at 12:48pm:

How many times do I have to repeat that the protests are meaningless, before it sinks in?

John Smith wrote on Nov 6^th, 2016 at 12:42pm:

the protests are meaningless and you've put up absolutely nothing to change my mind.

John Smith wrote on Nov 6^th, 2016 at 12:32pm:

I just happen to think that the rallies won't amount to anything.

freediver wrote on Nov 6^th, 2016 at 1:45pm:

Pretty stupid thing to say, don't you agree John?

no. But I'm sure you'll find a way to take it to stupid. You have a gift.

You show him, FD. Take it to stupid.

So you don't think that 150000 people calling for this guy's head will make Indonesian public figures less likely to criticise Islam or try to put a progressive spin on Islam?

freediver wrote on Nov 6^th, 2016 at 4:40pm:

So you don't think that 150000 people calling for this guy's head will make Indonesian public figures less likely to criticise Islam or try to put a progressive spin on Islam?

Sorry?

freediver wrote on Nov 6^th, 2016 at 4:40pm:

So you don't think that 150000 people calling for this guy's head will make Indonesian public figures less likely to criticise Islam or try to put a progressive spin on Islam?

Sounds like ideological thuggery from the religion of peace.

Sounds like this mild protest from the mad mob of muslims.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pyq6WMatTEQ

Karnal wrote on Nov 6^th, 2016 at 4:59pm:

freediver wrote on Nov 6th, 2016 at 4:40pm: So you don't think that 150000 people calling for this guy's head will make Indonesian public figures less likely to criticise Islam or try to put a progressive spin on Islam? Sorry?

this is where FD now plays stupid  :D :D :D


Ok FD, I asked earlier and you ran away from it. I'll try again

What has changed as a result of the rally? And remember, stick to facts, not fantasy.

John Smith wrote on Nov 6^th, 2016 at 6:04pm:

Karnal wrote on Nov 6th, 2016 at 4:59pm: freediver wrote on Nov 6th, 2016 at 4:40pm: So you don't think that 150000 people calling for this guy's head will make Indonesian public figures less likely to criticise Islam or try to put a progressive spin on Islam? Sorry? this is where FD now plays stupid  :D :D :D Ok FD, I asked earlier and you ran away from it. I'll try again What has changed as a result of the rally? And remember, stick to facts, not fantasy.

Before the rally, politicians in Indonesia felt comfortable making public statements such as the one that sparked the riot.

This is pretty simple stuff John. Do I really need to explain it to you? No-one else here is struggling with it. You alone are pushing this idiocy.

Come on John - admit you were playing Class Clown for the attention it would get you, and now have the good grace to retract your ill-considered statement and live to fight another day.

Don't prolong your embarrassment any longer.

8-)

freediver wrote on Nov 6^th, 2016 at 6:38pm:

John Smith wrote on Nov 6th, 2016 at 6:04pm: Karnal wrote on Nov 6th, 2016 at 4:59pm: freediver wrote on Nov 6th, 2016 at 4:40pm: So you don't think that 150000 people calling for this guy's head will make Indonesian public figures less likely to criticise Islam or try to put a progressive spin on Islam? Sorry? this is where FD now plays stupid  :D :D :D Ok FD, I asked earlier and you ran away from it. I'll try again What has changed as a result of the rally? And remember, stick to facts, not fantasy. Before the rally, politicians in Indonesia felt comfortable making public statements such as the one that sparked the riot. This is pretty simple stuff John. Do I really need to explain it to you? No-one else here is struggling with it.

I'm struggling, FD. Do you think you could simplify it a bit?

Karnal wrote on Nov 6^th, 2016 at 7:55pm:

I'm struggling, FD. Do you think you could simplify it a bit?

miam miam.

freediver wrote on Nov 6^th, 2016 at 6:38pm:

John Smith wrote on Nov 6th, 2016 at 6:04pm: Karnal wrote on Nov 6th, 2016 at 4:59pm: freediver wrote on Nov 6th, 2016 at 4:40pm: So you don't think that 150000 people calling for this guy's head will make Indonesian public figures less likely to criticise Islam or try to put a progressive spin on Islam? Sorry? this is where FD now plays stupid  :D :D :D Ok FD, I asked earlier and you ran away from it. I'll try again What has changed as a result of the rally? And remember, stick to facts, not fantasy. Before the rally, politicians in Indonesia felt comfortable making public statements such as the one that sparked the riot. This is pretty simple stuff John. Do I really need to explain it to you? No-one else here is struggling with it. You alone are pushing this idiocy.

who feels more uncomfortable now FD? Do you just make this up as you go or have you some guide to help you through it?

Lord Herbert wrote on Nov 6^th, 2016 at 7:57pm:

Karnal wrote on Nov 6th, 2016 at 7:55pm: I'm struggling, FD. Do you think you could simplify it a bit? miam miam.

That's better.

Can anyone get it even simpler still?

Karnal wrote on Nov 6^th, 2016 at 9:31pm:

Lord Herbert wrote on Nov 6th, 2016 at 7:57pm: Karnal wrote on Nov 6th, 2016 at 7:55pm: I'm struggling, FD. Do you think you could simplify it a bit? miam miam. That's better. Can anyone get it even simpler still?

Was your stoner mate there?  Was he holding the sign saying the governor should be hung?

Gordon wrote on Nov 6^th, 2016 at 9:38pm:

Karnal wrote on Nov 6th, 2016 at 9:31pm: Lord Herbert wrote on Nov 6th, 2016 at 7:57pm: Karnal wrote on Nov 6th, 2016 at 7:55pm: I'm struggling, FD. Do you think you could simplify it a bit? miam miam. That's better. Can anyone get it even simpler still? Was your stoner mate there?  Was he holding the sign saying the governor should be hung?

That's a question.

Karnal wrote on Nov 6^th, 2016 at 11:23pm:

Gordon wrote on Nov 6th, 2016 at 9:38pm: Karnal wrote on Nov 6th, 2016 at 9:31pm: Lord Herbert wrote on Nov 6th, 2016 at 7:57pm: Karnal wrote on Nov 6th, 2016 at 7:55pm: I'm struggling, FD. Do you think you could simplify it a bit? miam miam. That's better. Can anyone get it even simpler still? Was your stoner mate there?  Was he holding the sign saying the governor should be hung? That's a question.

Are you up for the t-shirt challenge?

freediver wrote on Nov 5^th, 2016 at 7:51am:

Gandalf will be here soon to tell us they don't really mean it.

Or Gandalf will be here soon to point out that muslim majority Jakarta elected a "blaspheming infidel" as governor, and will be re-elected in February despite the tantrums of an extremist fringe

polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 7^th, 2016 at 10:50am:

freediver wrote on Nov 5th, 2016 at 7:51am: Gandalf will be here soon to tell us they don't really mean it. Or Gandalf will be here soon to point out that muslim majority Jakarta elected a "blaspheming infidel" as governor, and will be re-elected in February despite the tantrums of an extremist fringe

no, no Gandalf ... things have changed now. FD says so.

Of course, he hasn't yet shown me how. But I'm still hopeful .

freediver wrote on Nov 6^th, 2016 at 6:38pm:

Before the rally, politicians in Indonesia felt comfortable making public statements such as the one that sparked the riot.

Really? Do you need reminding, yet again, that Ahok apologised before the rally? What has actually changed since the protests FD?

Despite 7 pages of huffing and puffing you haven't actually addressed this point of John's - how has Ahok's, or the Indonesian government's behaviour actually changed as a result of this protest? Your only answer is "oh but of course its sure to change them!"

Its worth pointing out too that the group that organized this rally have been on the streets before against Ahok - yet still he wasn't ruled ineligible, still he was elected, and still he remains the front-runner for next February's poll.

polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 7^th, 2016 at 11:14am:

Its worth pointing out too that the group that organized this rally have been on the streets before against Ahok - yet still he wasn't ruled ineligible, still he was elected, and still he remains the front-runner for next February's poll.

Quote: "The majority are irrelevant".

Karnal wrote on Nov 6^th, 2016 at 7:55pm:

freediver wrote on Nov 6th, 2016 at 6:38pm: John Smith wrote on Nov 6th, 2016 at 6:04pm: Karnal wrote on Nov 6th, 2016 at 4:59pm: freediver wrote on Nov 6th, 2016 at 4:40pm: So you don't think that 150000 people calling for this guy's head will make Indonesian public figures less likely to criticise Islam or try to put a progressive spin on Islam? Sorry? this is where FD now plays stupid  :D :D :D Ok FD, I asked earlier and you ran away from it. I'll try again What has changed as a result of the rally? And remember, stick to facts, not fantasy. Before the rally, politicians in Indonesia felt comfortable making public statements such as the one that sparked the riot. This is pretty simple stuff John. Do I really need to explain it to you? No-one else here is struggling with it. I'm struggling, FD. Do you think you could simplify it a bit?

Do you agree with John that the protest will not alter anyone's behaviour or change anything? So far none of the other apologists have been prepared to touch that one. Even John is reluctant to take ownership of it.

verballing me again FD? you're not very good at this.

polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 7^th, 2016 at 11:14am:

freediver wrote on Nov 6th, 2016 at 6:38pm: Before the rally, politicians in Indonesia felt comfortable making public statements such as the one that sparked the riot. Really? Do you need reminding, yet again, that Ahok apologised before the rally? What has actually changed since the protests FD? Despite 7 pages of huffing and puffing you haven't actually addressed this point of John's - how has Ahok's, or the Indonesian government's behaviour actually changed as a result of this protest? Your only answer is "oh but of course its sure to change them!" Its worth pointing out too that the group that organized this rally have been on the streets before against Ahok - yet still he wasn't ruled ineligible, still he was elected, and still he remains the front-runner for next February's poll.

Gandalf, do you actually agree with John that this won't make a difference or change anyone's behaviour? Or are you just asking that I once again explain the bleeding obvious? I understand that you often struggle with concepts like freedom of speech and how detrimental Islam is to it.

Before you answer Gandalf you should be aware that FD is verbaling me and as usual, he has gotten it wrong. I said the protest is not VERY meaningful, which is different to not meaningful ... but don't tell him that  :D :D




John Smith wrote on Nov 5^th, 2016 at 8:04am:

. But 150 000 out of a potential 250 million is not very meaningful at all.

then when he asked for a definition of not meaningful and meaningful I gave him this


John Smith wrote on Nov 6^th, 2016 at 9:24am:

What I mean by 'Not meaningful' - protest is small enough that it won't change a thing What sort of turnout is meaningful - one that is large enough to make the govt. sit up and take  notice.

Even John now recognises the stupidity of John's statements. Don't you John? Would you say this is stupid, or very stupid?


John Smith wrote on Nov 6^th, 2016 at 10:37am:

Quote: What do you think John? Will they forget about it in a few weeks? hence my comment that it's 'not meaningful'

freediver wrote on Nov 8^th, 2016 at 7:04pm:

Even John now recognises the stupidity of John's statements. Don't you John? Would you say this is stupid, or very stupid? John Smith wrote on Nov 6th, 2016 at 10:37am: Quote: What do you think John? Will they forget about it in a few weeks? hence my comment that it's 'not meaningful'

you going to pull 7 words out of all context so you can keep pretending FD?  :D :D :D

freediver wrote on Nov 8^th, 2016 at 6:40pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 7th, 2016 at 11:14am: freediver wrote on Nov 6th, 2016 at 6:38pm: Before the rally, politicians in Indonesia felt comfortable making public statements such as the one that sparked the riot. Really? Do you need reminding, yet again, that Ahok apologised before the rally? What has actually changed since the protests FD? Despite 7 pages of huffing and puffing you haven't actually addressed this point of John's - how has Ahok's, or the Indonesian government's behaviour actually changed as a result of this protest? Your only answer is "oh but of course its sure to change them!" Its worth pointing out too that the group that organized this rally have been on the streets before against Ahok - yet still he wasn't ruled ineligible, still he was elected, and still he remains the front-runner for next February's poll. Gandalf, do you actually agree with John that this won't make a difference or change anyone's behaviour? Or are you just asking that I once again explain the bleeding obvious? I understand that you often struggle with concepts like freedom of speech and how detrimental Islam is to it.

I see no reason to believe it will make any difference. And we have precedent to back me up - in 2014 the same group came out and violently protested the candidacy of Ahok - based on their religious belief that a non-muslim shouldn't stand. Not only was his candidacy not rejected (as they demanded), but he was easily elected by muslim majority Jakarta.

polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 8^th, 2016 at 7:21pm:

I see no reason to believe it will make any difference.

FD will now argue that Ahok had to hire extra security personnel so that changes everything

OK, so now we have two people - Gandalf and John - who say that 150000 angry Muslims protesting against freedom of speech won't make a difference. John is frantically backpedaling, but Gandalf is coming up behind. John won't say what made this politician decide to disown his words and be more polite to Muslims in future, or what made the police decide to bring him in for questioning, but whatever this mysterious force is, it is far more "meaningful" than the massive protest.

Tell us Gandalf, are you going to continue using Indonesia as an example of a progressive Muslim nation?

What about you Karnal? Do you buy in to this idiocy? Would you find 150000 angry Muslims intimidating? Or would you not really notice them, like the Indonesian government according to John?

Make a difference to what exactly FD? Whether Ahok hires an extra body guard? Or  the outcome of the upcoming election? I concede the former is possible - but I believe thats what John meant by "meaningful" difference.


freediver wrote on Nov 8^th, 2016 at 9:24pm:

John won't say what made this politician decide to disown his words and be more polite to Muslims in future

Oh I know - it was the protests that hadn't yet happened - amrite?

When you can answer your own question Gandalf, you will understand why Islam is the greatest modern threat to freedom and democracy.

Think about it.

freediver wrote on Nov 8^th, 2016 at 9:24pm:

Tell us Gandalf, are you going to continue using Indonesia as an example of a progressive Muslim nation?

Yes. I'll particularly enjoy pointing out how little impact these sorts of protests have in terms of political influence. Like the fact that they failed miserably in 2014 to intimidate muslim majority Jakarta to disqualify a non-muslim candidate or to not vote him in. I'll also continue to point out the continued rejection of Islamist parties in Indonesian politics.

freediver wrote on Nov 8^th, 2016 at 12:20pm:

Karnal wrote on Nov 6th, 2016 at 7:55pm: freediver wrote on Nov 6th, 2016 at 6:38pm: John Smith wrote on Nov 6th, 2016 at 6:04pm: Karnal wrote on Nov 6th, 2016 at 4:59pm: freediver wrote on Nov 6th, 2016 at 4:40pm: So you don't think that 150000 people calling for this guy's head will make Indonesian public figures less likely to criticise Islam or try to put a progressive spin on Islam? Sorry? this is where FD now plays stupid  :D :D :D Ok FD, I asked earlier and you ran away from it. I'll try again What has changed as a result of the rally? And remember, stick to facts, not fantasy. Before the rally, politicians in Indonesia felt comfortable making public statements such as the one that sparked the riot. This is pretty simple stuff John. Do I really need to explain it to you? No-one else here is struggling with it. I'm struggling, FD. Do you think you could simplify it a bit? Do you agree with John that the protest will not alter anyone's behaviour or change anything? So far none of the other apologists have been prepared to touch that one. Even John is reluctant to take ownership of it.

I'm not sure, FD. Change what?

polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 8^th, 2016 at 9:47pm:

freediver wrote on Nov 8th, 2016 at 9:24pm: Tell us Gandalf, are you going to continue using Indonesia as an example of a progressive Muslim nation? Yes. I'll particularly enjoy pointing out how little impact these sorts of protests have in terms of political influence. Like the fact that they failed miserably in 2014 to intimidate muslim majority Jakarta to disqualify a non-muslim candidate or to not vote him in. I'll also continue to point out the continued rejection of Islamist parties in Indonesian politics.

Do you think they might make politicians limit what they say?

Do you?

polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 8^th, 2016 at 9:33pm:

but I believe thats what John meant by "meaningful" difference.

I should have known he would take it to ridiculous  :D :D

Karnal wrote on Nov 8^th, 2016 at 10:06pm:

Do you?

Yes. I think any public or even private figure in Indonesia is going to further limit what they say now. I'm not sure why it is so easy to see the link between the protests and needing extra personal security, but not to see the link to feeling threatened or unsafe. People don't hire bodyguards on a whim.

It is another Islamic nail in the coffin of personal freedom in Indonesia.

So a rowdy protest automatically equates to a curbing of personal freedoms - apparently.

I'm not sure I agree with the leap in logic.

freediver wrote on Nov 9^th, 2016 at 12:10pm:

Karnal wrote on Nov 8th, 2016 at 10:06pm: Do you? Yes. I think any public or even private figure in Indonesia is going to further limit what they say now. I'm not sure why it is so easy to see the link between the protests and needing extra personal security, but not to see the link to feeling threatened or unsafe. People don't hire bodyguards on a whim. It is another Islamic nail in the coffin of personal freedom in Indonesia.

Wow. You answered.

Good show.

polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 9^th, 2016 at 2:51pm:

So a rowdy protest automatically equates to a curbing of personal freedoms - apparently. I'm not sure I agree with the leap in logic.

Would you be willing to stand in the middle of Jakarta proclaiming the 'blasphemy' that got this politician into trouble with the Muslim mobs? It actually sounds a lot like the spin you try to put on Islam as part of your alleged reform, so the question shouldn't be too far from home for you.

In case you didn't notice, it is not just a 'rowdy protest'. It is a protest targeted at attacking freedom of speech, attended by 150000 angry Muslims, many calling for the death of the blasphemer. Can you see what I am talking about now, or did you think we were talking about a climate change rally?

freediver wrote on Nov 10^th, 2016 at 8:10pm:

Would you be willing to stand in the middle of Jakarta proclaiming the 'blasphemy' that got this politician into trouble with the Muslim mobs

would you have done it before the protest last weekend?

freediver wrote on Nov 10^th, 2016 at 8:10pm:

In case you didn't notice, it is not just a 'rowdy protest'. It is a protest targeted at attacking freedom of speech, attended by 150000 angry Muslims, many calling for the death of the blasphemer. Can you see what I am talking about now, or did you think we were talking about a climate change rally?

Freedom of speech grants the right to do such things. Thats the paradox we must not only accept, but also defend; the freedom to demand the end of freedom. You yourself described freedom as containing the seeds of its own destruction for this very reason. Now of course you can, and should, condemn such displays of freedom, but I find it strange to say the least to describe the very act of free speech as "another Islamic nail in the coffin of personal freedom".

freediver wrote on Nov 10^th, 2016 at 8:10pm:

Would you be willing to stand in the middle of Jakarta proclaiming the 'blasphemy' that got this politician into trouble with the Muslim mobs? It actually sounds a lot like the spin you try to put on Islam as part of your alleged reform, so the question shouldn't be too far from home for you.

Typically I'm not in the habit of standing in the middle of streets proclaiming anything to all and sundry. I tend to think it makes me look like a raving lunatic.

I wouldn't, however, feel dissuaded from pointing out the simple truth of his point - namely that the Quran doesn't forbid muslims from voting for non-muslims - as a result of a protest.

polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 11^th, 2016 at 11:53am:

freediver wrote on Nov 10th, 2016 at 8:10pm: In case you didn't notice, it is not just a 'rowdy protest'. It is a protest targeted at attacking freedom of speech, attended by 150000 angry Muslims, many calling for the death of the blasphemer. Can you see what I am talking about now, or did you think we were talking about a climate change rally? Freedom of speech grants the right to do such things. Thats the paradox we must not only accept, but also defend; the freedom to demand the end of freedom. You yourself described freedom as containing the seeds of its own destruction for this very reason. Now of course you can, and should, condemn such displays of freedom, but I find it strange to say the least to describe the very act of free speech as "another Islamic nail in the coffin of personal freedom".

If it is sufficiently intimidating to make the politician hire more personal security, then it is sufficiently intimidating to make the politician, as well as anyone else who is paying attention, to limit what they say. Is this point sinking in yet? I have made it in about a dozen posts already, but you won't touch it. As a Muslim you may not recognise that as an attack on freedom or even realise the freedoms that are being lost. Perhaps you even celebrate the loss as a display of respect for Muhammed or a step towards religious tolerance.

This is Islam flexing its muscles in Indonesia, which is one of the younger societies on earth to be dominated by Islam. It is the Islamic faith ratchet in action. Expect the displays to become more vulgar as Islam's critics (and the various 'hypocrits' and apologists) are gradually silenced, like they are in most places dominated by Islam. Expect Gandalf the progressive Muslim to make excuses every step of the way.


Quote:

I wouldn't, however, feel dissuaded from pointing out the simple truth of his point - namely that the Quran doesn't forbid muslims from voting for non-muslims - as a result of a protest.

Nice dodge Gandalf. So you would modify what he said to make it as inoffensive to the mob as possible? What would motivate you to be so selective with what you say?

polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 11^th, 2016 at 11:53am:

freediver wrote on Nov 10th, 2016 at 8:10pm: In case you didn't notice, it is not just a 'rowdy protest'. It is a protest targeted at attacking freedom of speech, attended by 150000 angry Muslims, many calling for the death of the blasphemer. Can you see what I am talking about now, or did you think we were talking about a climate change rally? Freedom of speech grants the right to do such things. Thats the paradox we must not only accept, but also defend; the freedom to demand the end of freedom. You yourself described freedom as containing the seeds of its own destruction for this very reason.

This is why FD's quaint, Eurocentric ideals get him so tied up in knots. Indonesia has no such claims of "freedom". It's an oriental culture, steeped in its own social-political traditions. Critical to "free speech" in Indonesia is not upsetting the gods, or the wrong people.

Indonesia has a tentative political balance that goes back dynasties. Javans, Sumatrans and Balinese kingdoms fought for ascendancy, assisted at various times by the Portugese, Dutch and British.

Religion attaches itself to this. The current Javan rule is based around a mystical, even anamist religious tradition. Sumatran kingdoms in the north had a different idea of religion. Today, this is just what Aceh is: a kingdom. Its Special Administrative status allows it to be a Sultinate with its own laws. When the Javans were weakened after the fall of Suharto, they granted the northern Sumatrans their "freedom".

But even this is a very narrow reading of a complex social and political culture. Indonesia is a volcanic archipelago. The land itself is unstable. Kingdoms and dynasties have migrated, invaded, been colonised and flattened by volcanic erruptions for millennia.

Indonesia is a rice-based agrarian village culture. This brings with it the imperative to live peacefully with your neighbours, most of whom are interrelated through marriage. Saving face and not causing offence are critical. Only some have the right to cause offence, and this shifts as power moves from the regions to the city, the army to elected officials, and somewhat recently, from the provincial leadership to the Islamic organisations who have mobilised the new social technologies well.

Applying FD's Cold War model of Freeeeedom to Indonesia misses the point entirely. Even applying it to modern Western politics is becoming irrelevant, particularly as we now see people exercising their freedom to support their own oppression. While this has always occurred, it has never been so obvious. We now have the Wikileaks, the live microphones and the video out-takes to prove it. What never ceases to amaze me is how easily the words of the powerful are excused and reinterpreted. Ignorance is strength, after all.

As FD's Freeeedom map shows, his ideas have only ever been a vague aspiration, and rarely for long. Freeeedom is always exploited, as the move from the Roman republic to the empire highlighted.

The fact that FD missed this transition is important. It shows how ideology can hide the bleeding obvious each and every time.

Freeeeedom, innit.

John Smith wrote on Nov 10^th, 2016 at 8:41pm:

freediver wrote on Nov 10th, 2016 at 8:10pm: Would you be willing to stand in the middle of Jakarta proclaiming the 'blasphemy' that got this politician into trouble with the Muslim mobs would you have done it before the protest last weekend?

bump for FD

freediver wrote on Nov 11^th, 2016 at 12:18pm:

Nice dodge Gandalf. So you would modify what he said

What? As far as I know thats exactly what he said. What did I modify?

Karnal wrote on Nov 11^th, 2016 at 1:46pm:

As FD's Freeeedom map shows, his ideas have only ever been a vague aspiration, and rarely for long. Freeeedom is always exploited, as the move from the Roman republic to the empire highlighted.

Freedom is constantly under attack from a whole host of forces - and "Islam" - a vague term to the point of being meaningless that even FD ties himself in knots attempting to define - is frankly way down the list. Yet if you believed anything FD says, not only is Islam the greatest threat, its basically the only threat. So for example when armed male police in France tower over a cowering woman on a beach and literally demand her to strip - with the full force of the law behind them - something you would be shocked to see even in the despotic third world - FD is all "whats that? I don't see any threat to freedom".

polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 11^th, 2016 at 11:53am:

freediver wrote on Nov 10th, 2016 at 8:10pm: In case you didn't notice, it is not just a 'rowdy protest'. It is a protest targeted at attacking freedom of speech, attended by 150000 angry Muslims, many calling for the death of the blasphemer. Can you see what I am talking about now, or did you think we were talking about a climate change rally? Freedom of speech grants the right to do such things. Thats the paradox we must not only accept, but also defend; the freedom to demand the end of freedom. You yourself described freedom as containing the seeds of its own destruction for this very reason. Now of course you can, and should, condemn such displays of freedom, but I find it strange to say the least to describe the very act of free speech as "another Islamic nail in the coffin of personal freedom".

Islam is fundamentally and in every way radically opposed to freedom of any kind. It's very meaning is Submission.

And so the Jakarta protests are no mere expressions of freedom. They are Islamic chauvinists demanding the arrest of a Chinese Christian governor.  This is not one interpretation of freedom protesting, arguing against another. This is Suppression and Submission baying for the blood of an infidel.


Jakarta: The streets of Jakarta erupted into violence on Friday night leaving one dead and multiple people injured as police clashed with demonstrators following a rally of about 150,000 people demanding the arrest of the city's Chinese Christian governor.

Frank wrote on Nov 11^th, 2016 at 6:10pm:

Islam is fundamentally and in every way radically opposed to freedom of any kind. It's very meaning is Submission.

Quote:

The truth is from your Lord, so whoever wills - let him believe; and whoever wills - let him disbelieve

18:29

polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 11^th, 2016 at 7:28pm:

Frank wrote on Nov 11th, 2016 at 6:10pm: Islam is fundamentally and in every way radically opposed to freedom of any kind. It's very meaning is Submission. Quote: The truth is from your Lord, so whoever wills - let him believe; and whoever wills - let him disbelieve 18:29

Not reflected in Islamic blasphemy laws, is it???


Islamic moderates have simply no credibility, not least because the more motivated Islamists are killing them on the spot.

YOU are afraid of the jihadists. They will kill you. I am no threat to you, pal. Your fellow Muslims are. Sort them first.

But you are afraid of them because they do not share any of the bromides you are trying to peddle here.

Frank wrote on Nov 11^th, 2016 at 8:49pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 11th, 2016 at 7:28pm: Frank wrote on Nov 11th, 2016 at 6:10pm: Islam is fundamentally and in every way radically opposed to freedom of any kind. It's very meaning is Submission. Quote: The truth is from your Lord, so whoever wills - let him believe; and whoever wills - let him disbelieve 18:29 Not reflected in Islamic blasphemy laws, is it??? Islamic moderates have simply no credibility, not least because the more motivated Islamists are killing them on the spot. YOU are afraid of the jihadists. They will kill you. I am no threat to you, pal. Your fellow Muslims are. Sort them first. But you are afraid of them because they do not share any of the bromides you are trying to peddle here.

Why do you fear them, Frank?  Because they peddle the same level of hate that you do and act upon it?   ::)

Frank wrote on Nov 11^th, 2016 at 8:49pm:

YOU are afraid of the jihadists. They will kill you.

sheesh pathetic excuse innit? Typical.

John Smith wrote on Nov 11^th, 2016 at 1:59pm:

John Smith wrote on Nov 10th, 2016 at 8:41pm: freediver wrote on Nov 10th, 2016 at 8:10pm: Would you be willing to stand in the middle of Jakarta proclaiming the 'blasphemy' that got this politician into trouble with the Muslim mobs would you have done it before the protest last weekend? bump for FD

I'll let the actions of the governor be my guide on this one. Prior to the protests, he obviously felt comfortable doing so. After all, you would have to be particularly loony to find offence in what he said. I doubt anyone foresaw 150000 protesting against it.


Quote:

This is why FD's quaint, Eurocentric ideals get him so tied up in knots. Indonesia has no such claims of "freedom".

I never said it did Karnal. But it is going backwards, thanks to Islam.


Quote:

It's an oriental culture, steeped in its own social-political traditions. Critical to "free speech" in Indonesia is not upsetting the gods, or the wrong people.

Are you channeling Abu? Just a 'slightly different take' on freedom?


Quote:

Applying FD's Cold War model of Freeeeedom to Indonesia misses the point entirely.

What is this model Karnal?


Quote:

As FD's Freeeedom map shows, his ideas have only ever been a vague aspiration, and rarely for long. Freeeedom is always exploited, as the move from the Roman republic to the empire highlighted. The fact that FD missed this transition is important. It shows how ideology can hide the bleeding obvious each and every time.

How do you go from attributing the demise of the Roman empire to this transition to 'missing' it?


Quote:

Freedom is constantly under attack from a whole host of forces - and "Islam" - a vague term to the point of being meaningless that even FD ties himself in knots attempting to define - is frankly way down the list.

Oh look, a Muslim trying to define Islam out of existence because that is the only remaining option for excusing the obvious role Islam is playing in destroying human rights and freedom.

freediver wrote on Nov 12^th, 2016 at 7:51am:

I'll let the actions of the governor be my guide on this one. Prior to the protests, he obviously felt comfortable doing so. After all, you would have to be particularly loony to find offence in what he said. I doubt anyone foresaw 150000 protesting against it.

then you'd end up in jail. Blasphemy is illegal in Indonesia, whether you agree with it or not. If the governor 'curbed' his speech, it most likely had more to do with the threat of jail then any protests that came after he'd already agreed to be more careful

What the governor said is not illegal in Indonesia, yet.

freediver wrote on Nov 12^th, 2016 at 9:17am:

What the governor said is not illegal in Indonesia, yet.

Blasphemy is illegal and has been for a long time. If investigators find what he said was blasphemous, then he could face charges.
Of course, something like Blasphemy is very subjective.

Keep backpedaling John. What the governor said is not illegal in Indonesia, yet.

Though it may get you lynched these days.

freediver wrote on Nov 12^th, 2016 at 9:25am:

Keep backpedaling John. What the governor said is not illegal in Indonesia, yet. Though it may get you lynched these days.

Who is back peddling? Keep ignoring the facts FD, that'll undoubtedly prove your point :D :D

John Smith wrote on Nov 12^th, 2016 at 9:10am:

freediver wrote on Nov 12th, 2016 at 7:51am: I'll let the actions of the governor be my guide on this one. Prior to the protests, he obviously felt comfortable doing so. After all, you would have to be particularly loony to find offence in what he said. I doubt anyone foresaw 150000 protesting against it. then you'd end up in jail.

Keep backpedaling John.

freediver wrote on Nov 12^th, 2016 at 9:35am:

John Smith wrote on Nov 12th, 2016 at 9:10am: freediver wrote on Nov 12th, 2016 at 7:51am: I'll let the actions of the governor be my guide on this one. Prior to the protests, he obviously felt comfortable doing so. After all, you would have to be particularly loony to find offence in what he said. I doubt anyone foresaw 150000 protesting against it. then you'd end up in jail. Keep backpedaling John.

white flag accepted FD. You can try again next time some scary muslim says something you don't like

Brian Ross wrote on Nov 11^th, 2016 at 11:53pm:

Frank wrote on Nov 11th, 2016 at 8:49pm: polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 11th, 2016 at 7:28pm: Frank wrote on Nov 11th, 2016 at 6:10pm: Islam is fundamentally and in every way radically opposed to freedom of any kind. It's very meaning is Submission. Quote: The truth is from your Lord, so whoever wills - let him believe; and whoever wills - let him disbelieve 18:29 Not reflected in Islamic blasphemy laws, is it??? Islamic moderates have simply no credibility, not least because the more motivated Islamists are killing them on the spot. YOU are afraid of the jihadists. They will kill you. I am no threat to you, pal. Your fellow Muslims are. Sort them first. But you are afraid of them because they do not share any of the bromides you are trying to peddle here. Why do you fear them, Frank?  Because they peddle the same level of hate that you do and act upon it?   ::)

I oppose them for exactly the same reason everyone fears them. Here's a Muslim Trump voter for example. Would you ask her the same idiotic questions you ask me?



Finally, as a liberal Muslim who has experienced, first-hand, Islamic extremism in this world, I have been opposed to the decision by President Barack Obama and the Democratic Party to tap dance around the "Islam" in Islamic State. Of course, Trump's rhetoric has been far more than indelicate and folks can have policy differences with his recommendations, but, to me, it has been exaggerated and demonised by the governments of Qatar and Saudi Arabia, their media channels, such as Al Jazeera, and their proxies in the West, in a convenient distraction from the issue that most worries me as a human being on this earth: extremist Islam of the kind that has spilled blood from the hallways of the Taj Mahal hotel in Mumbai to the dance floor of the Pulse nightclub in Orlando, Florida.

freediver wrote on Nov 12^th, 2016 at 9:25am:

Keep backpedaling John. What the governor said is not illegal in Indonesia, yet.

Says who?

The police had already taken an interest in what he said, and Ahok himself had issued an apology  - all before the protest.

As John says, blasphemy is very subjective.

freediver wrote on Nov 12^th, 2016 at 7:51am:

John Smith wrote on Nov 11th, 2016 at 1:59pm: John Smith wrote on Nov 10th, 2016 at 8:41pm: freediver wrote on Nov 10th, 2016 at 8:10pm: Would you be willing to stand in the middle of Jakarta proclaiming the 'blasphemy' that got this politician into trouble with the Muslim mobs would you have done it before the protest last weekend? bump for FD I'll let the actions of the governor be my guide on this one. Prior to the protests, he obviously felt comfortable doing so. After all, you would have to be particularly loony to find offence in what he said. I doubt anyone foresaw 150000 protesting against it. Quote: This is why FD's quaint, Eurocentric ideals get him so tied up in knots. Indonesia has no such claims of "freedom". I never said it did Karnal. But it is going backwards, thanks to Islam. [quote]It's an oriental culture, steeped in its own social-political traditions. Critical to "free speech" in Indonesia is not upsetting the gods, or the wrong people.

Are you channeling Abu? Just a 'slightly different take' on freedom?


Quote:

Applying FD's Cold War model of Freeeeedom to Indonesia misses the point entirely.

What is this model Karnal?


Quote:

As FD's Freeeedom map shows, his ideas have only ever been a vague aspiration, and rarely for long. Freeeedom is always exploited, as the move from the Roman republic to the empire highlighted. The fact that FD missed this transition is important. It shows how ideology can hide the bleeding obvious each and every time.

How do you go from attributing the demise of the Roman empire to this transition to 'missing' it?


Quote:

Freedom is constantly under attack from a whole host of forces - and "Islam" - a vague term to the point of being meaningless that even FD ties himself in knots attempting to define - is frankly way down the list.

Oh look, a Muslim trying to define Islam out of existence because that is the only remaining option for excusing the obvious role Islam is playing in destroying human rights and freedom.[/quote]

Indonesia's "inclusiveness" score has gone up since Suharto left, FD.

Do you blame Islam for Indonesia embracing Western democracy and free trade?

freediver wrote on Nov 12^th, 2016 at 7:51am:

I'll let the actions of the governor be my guide on this one. Prior to the protests he obviously felt comfortable doing so.

Ah yes, he was so comfortable about it that he apologised for it. The police also started investigating whether he violated the blasphemy laws. This all happened prior to the protests FD.

What actions did he do after the protests to suggest he's as cowered as you insist he is by them?

By the way FD, how did I modify what Ahok said again?

polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 12^th, 2016 at 1:42pm:

What actions did he do after the protests to suggest he's as cowered as you insist he is by them?

it's already been established that nothing changed as a result of the riot ... FD is moving from reality to pretend now. He'll come back with ;what would you do if faced with 150 000 jihadists,' or some other such baloney.

Quote:

Indonesia's "inclusiveness" score has gone up since Suharto left, FD.

How about since the protests Karnal? All going smoothly?


Quote:

Ah yes, he was so comfortable about it that he apologised for it.

For political reasons. Not because he was going to end up in jail or lynched.


Quote:

The police also started investigating whether he violated the blasphemy laws.

If it weren't for the protests, they would have quietly dropped it. How hard do you think it is for them to figure this out?


Quote:

What actions did he do after the protests to suggest he's as cowered as you insist he is by them?

What did I insist Gandalf? Didn't you concede he would probably need more personal security following the protests? What is the risk to his life so obvious but the resulting self-censorship from Indonesian public figures not?


Quote:

By the way FD, how did I modify what Ahok said again?

Would you be willing to stand up in the middle of Jakarta and say what Ahok said that sparked the protest? Try giving a straight answer this time Gandalf.

freediver wrote on Nov 12^th, 2016 at 2:00pm:

If it weren't for the protests, they would have quietly dropped it. How hard do you think it is for them to figure this out?

now you're making it up as you go. They started the investigation well before any protests, and you've nothing to support your fairy tale that they planned on dropping it.

That's how it works Gandalf. You either arrest someone, or you drop it. There is nothing to investigate. The facts are already established. They know exactly what he said. If they had any hope of a conviction, they would have charged him already. The police are just going through the motions to satisfy the angry mob of Muslims. They are validating their butthurt.

freediver wrote on Nov 12^th, 2016 at 2:28pm:

You either arrest someone, or you drop it.

and yet they've done neither ...DESPITE THE PROTESTS :D :D

How would you normally interpret the police not arresting someone when then is no ambiguity regarding the facts of the case John?

freediver wrote on Nov 12^th, 2016 at 5:50pm:

How would you normally interpret the police not arresting someone when then is no ambiguity regarding the facts of the case John?

I told you, it's very subjective. They're probably going back and forth amongst themselves and with the lawyers to see if they have a case or what the chances of prosecution are.

Have they dropped the investigation FD?

They would have known in less than 24 hours whether they had a case. This is not a real crime with facts to establish, witnesses to interview, evidence to pore over, etc.

You claimed I would have gotten arrested for saying the same thing. Just admit you were wrong, yet again.

freediver wrote on Nov 12^th, 2016 at 7:15pm:

They would have known in less than 24 hours whether they had a case. This is not a real crime with facts to establish, witnesses to interview, evidence to pore over, etc. You claimed I would have gotten arrested for saying the same thing. Just admit you were wrong, yet again.

FD, You never did admit you were wrong on your Roman Empire thesis, you just sneakily changed the words around to make another thesis. Most Orwellian if you don't mind me saying.

But I have a question. If someone can be wrong on the "inclusiveness" of the Roman Empire, why couldn't they also be wrong on Indonesian politics? The end of the Roman Republic is only one of the most well-told stories in the Western canon. In everything written about Western democracy, the rise of the Caesars is up there with the conquest of Alexander the Great and the French Revolution. Et tu, Brutus indeed.

I'm curious. If you could never admit that, do you think you could you admit that you're wrong about Indonesia?

It was the same thesis the whole time Karnal.

freediver wrote on Nov 12^th, 2016 at 7:15pm:

They would have known in less than 24 hours whether they had a case. This is not a real crime with facts to establish, witnesses to interview, evidence to pore over, etc. You claimed I would have gotten arrested for saying the same thing. Just admit you were wrong, yet again.

you're full of sh1t FD. You've so far presented ZERO evidence and you just bury your head up your arse when evidence is shown to you. Wishful thinking will not win it for you.

freediver wrote on Nov 12^th, 2016 at 9:50pm:

It was the same thesis the whole time Karnal.

Well yes, the thesis was you blame Islam the whole time, that's true.

Do you want to give the question a stab?

John Smith wrote on Nov 12^th, 2016 at 10:46pm:

freediver wrote on Nov 12th, 2016 at 7:15pm: They would have known in less than 24 hours whether they had a case. This is not a real crime with facts to establish, witnesses to interview, evidence to pore over, etc. You claimed I would have gotten arrested for saying the same thing. Just admit you were wrong, yet again. you're full of sh1t FD. You've so far presented ZERO evidence and you just bury your head up your arse when evidence is shown to you.

Yes, but in FD's defence, he does blame Islam, you know.

Fair's fair.

freediver wrote on Nov 12^th, 2016 at 5:50pm:

How would you normally interpret the police not arresting someone when then is no ambiguity regarding the facts of the case John?

;D ;D  - no ambiguity in determining what is "blasphemous" against Islam - the world according to FD.

Also FD, would you mind clarifying for me what I "modified" from Ahok's statement? You seem to be avoiding that now.

John Smith wrote on Nov 12^th, 2016 at 1:57pm:

He'll come back with ;what would you do if faced with 150 000 jihadists,' or some other such baloney.

Oh John, thats been his sole argument the whole time. I mean its not as if there's any facts to back his argument.

Its a recurring theme with FD - he constantly justifies a lack of facts in his argument with the old "common sense" ruse - usually cunningly presented as a rhetorical question.

He once stated as fact that government funds that went to Australian Islamic schools went to terrorists - with not a shred of evidence. Naturally his defense went along the lines of "where else would it go". But don't bother asking him about it now - he won't touch it with a 10 foot pole these days.

Damn, it looks like FD is proven wrong yet again




Jakarta Governor Ahok suspect in blasphemy case, Indonesian police say

Indonesian police have announced Jakarta's Governor is a suspect in a blasphemy case.

Allegations that the Governor, known as Ahok, insulted the Koran were at the centre of a violent protest in Jakarta earlier this month.

The case will now proceed to an open court and he has been ordered not to leave the country.

The Christian and ethnic Chinese Governor is running for election to the position at a poll due next year and accuses his opponents of being politically motivated.

Some Muslims say a Christian should not lead the city.

The charge of blasphemy carries a maximum five years in prison.


surely that can't be right? FD said it was clear cut. Yet he has neither been arrested, nor has the case been dropped :D :D :D :D

A suspect eh? Are they not sure who it was?

freediver wrote on Nov 16^th, 2016 at 6:01pm:

A suspect eh? Are they not sure who it was?

you think latching onto that is going to help your case?  ;D ;D

Quote:

Ahok accused his critics of corruption and said the mass protest of hardline Muslims on November 4 was politically motivated, with protestors receiving 500,000 Rupiah to attend. "I need to go to the court to prove this is political and not the law," he told 7.30.

Quote:

"I believe this is the status quo, the corrupters strike back at me because I cut too much corruption in this city."

Quote:

"I need to go to the court to prove this is political and not the law,"

Gosh, that definitely sounds like a man whose been cowed into submission by a rowdy rally.

Sounds like a man who blames Islam to me.

FD?

polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 16^th, 2016 at 9:40pm:

Quote: Ahok accused his critics of corruption and said the mass protest of hardline Muslims on November 4 was politically motivated, with protestors receiving 500,000 Rupiah to attend. "I need to go to the court to prove this is political and not the law," he told 7.30. [quote]"I believe this is the status quo, the corrupters strike back at me because I cut too much corruption in this city."

Quote:

"I need to go to the court to prove this is political and not the law,"

Gosh, that definitely sounds like a man whose been cowed into submission by a rowdy rally.
[/quote]

Do you agree with him about it not being the law Gandalf?

Do you think those quotes prove he is not afraid to criticise islam, or offer the sort of politically correct spin that you also like to put on Islam? Perhaps you think they called for his head because he criticised corruption?

What kind of God gets upset by his own creations? Of course, I am using the term God as professed by people who are in the habit of proclaiming their particular choice as infallible. The idea of blasphemy is so petty that it can only come from small minds. Likewise, their idea of how the universe works is pathetic. Its big and it scares them, so they must band together and assure each other they know what they are talking about. And while they cower before the majesty, in step the religionists to take advantage of their weak minds, for the simple desire to be in control.

freediver wrote on Nov 17^th, 2016 at 8:53pm:

Do you think those quotes prove he is not afraid to criticise islam

This question would make more sense if we knew he had ever actually wanted to criticise Islam, which its pretty obvious he didn't. What is patently clear is that he was taking a swipe at his opponents - and he didn't stop taking swipes at his opponents on account of the protests.

What those quotes do FD, if it needs to be spelled out, is to pour some extremely cold water on your insinuation that the protests somehow changed Ahok's behaviour - making him some sort of a cowering, quaking nervous wreck.

freediver wrote on Nov 17^th, 2016 at 8:53pm:

Do you think those quotes prove he is not afraid to criticise islam, or offer the sort of politically correct spin that you also like to put on Islam?

I wonder what spin FD will put on Islam with this

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-11-18/worshippers-gather-to-pray-for-peace-in-jakarta/8038848

John Smith wrote on Nov 18^th, 2016 at 5:05pm:

freediver wrote on Nov 17th, 2016 at 8:53pm: Do you think those quotes prove he is not afraid to criticise islam, or offer the sort of politically correct spin that you also like to put on Islam? I wonder what spin FD will put on Islam with this http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-11-18/worshippers-gather-to-pray-for-peace-in-jakarta/8038848

Do you have the breakdown of the numbers by religion?

I am guessing 10-100 non-Muslims for every Muslim.  Can you disprove my hunch, based on experience?

polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 18^th, 2016 at 1:37pm:

freediver wrote on Nov 17th, 2016 at 8:53pm: Do you think those quotes prove he is not afraid to criticise islam This question would make more sense if we knew he had ever actually wanted to criticise Islam, which its pretty obvious he didn't. What is patently clear is that he was taking a swipe at his opponents - and he didn't stop taking swipes at his opponents on account of the protests. What those quotes do FD, if it needs to be spelled out, is to pour some extremely cold water on your insinuation that the protests somehow changed Ahok's behaviour - making him some sort of a cowering, quaking nervous wreck.

No Gandalf that does not make sense. It does not matter what he wanted. He mentioned Islam. Muslims got offended. 150000 of them protested and called for his death. Now he does not mention Islam. So, message received.

Quoting him not mentioning Islam does not discredit this.

Do you recall ISIS saying that they would first deal with the hypocrits before the Jews? This is Indonesian Muslims doing the same thing - getting rid of the politically correct version of Islam that you like to trot out constantly. Despite this being a full frontal attack on the sort of reform you promote, you are completely blind to its existence. As a Muslim, all you can do is offer excuses and deflections for your coreligionists.

Well, that's that, G. You can't have an opinion on Indonesian politics because you're one of them - a dastardly Muselman.

FD's much more neutral on this. He's never been to Indonesia. He's never even met an Indonesian. FD hasn't read any Indonesian or even Australian media on the subject, but he knows.

FD, you see, blames Islam.

Honestly, G. Why don't you do the same?

Frank wrote on Nov 18^th, 2016 at 7:34pm:

Can you disprove my hunch, based on experience?

you seriously can't be that stupid?

John Smith wrote on Nov 18^th, 2016 at 11:29pm:

Frank wrote on Nov 18th, 2016 at 7:34pm: Can you disprove my hunch, based on experience? you seriously can't be that stupid?

Stupid and mendacious. The old boy wants his lunch.

University of Balogney, innit.

John Smith wrote on Nov 18^th, 2016 at 11:29pm:

Frank wrote on Nov 18th, 2016 at 7:34pm: Can you disprove my hunch, based on experience? you seriously can't be that stupid?

Time to pull your head out of your arse:




THE man who allegedly set himself on fire in a suburban Melbourne bank is believed to be a refugee from Myanmar, also known as Burma, living in Australia on a bridging visa.


A Rohinga = Muslim.

Frank wrote on Nov 19^th, 2016 at 7:42am:

John Smith wrote on Nov 18th, 2016 at 11:29pm: Frank wrote on Nov 18th, 2016 at 7:34pm: Can you disprove my hunch, based on experience? you seriously can't be that stupid? Time to pull your head out of your arse: THE man who allegedly set himself on fire in a suburban Melbourne bank is believed to be a refugee from Myanmar, also known as Burma, living in Australia on a bridging visa. A Rohinga = Muslim.

My gosh, you really are that stupid!

John Smith wrote on Nov 19^th, 2016 at 9:18am:

Frank wrote on Nov 19th, 2016 at 7:42am: John Smith wrote on Nov 18th, 2016 at 11:29pm: Frank wrote on Nov 18th, 2016 at 7:34pm: Can you disprove my hunch, based on experience? you seriously can't be that stupid? Time to pull your head out of your arse: THE man who allegedly set himself on fire in a suburban Melbourne bank is believed to be a refugee from Myanmar, also known as Burma, living in Australia on a bridging visa. A Rohinga = Muslim. My gosh, you really are that stupid!

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1479511507

Frank wrote on Nov 19^th, 2016 at 9:28am:

John Smith wrote on Nov 19th, 2016 at 9:18am: Frank wrote on Nov 19th, 2016 at 7:42am: John Smith wrote on Nov 18th, 2016 at 11:29pm: Frank wrote on Nov 18th, 2016 at 7:34pm: Can you disprove my hunch, based on experience? you seriously can't be that stupid? Time to pull your head out of your arse: THE man who allegedly set himself on fire in a suburban Melbourne bank is believed to be a refugee from Myanmar, also known as Burma, living in Australia on a bridging visa. A Rohinga = Muslim. My gosh, you really are that stupid! http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1479511507

and relevance to the protests in Indonesia?

John Smith wrote on Nov 19^th, 2016 at 9:29am:

Frank wrote on Nov 19th, 2016 at 9:28am: John Smith wrote on Nov 19th, 2016 at 9:18am: Frank wrote on Nov 19th, 2016 at 7:42am: John Smith wrote on Nov 18th, 2016 at 11:29pm: Frank wrote on Nov 18th, 2016 at 7:34pm: Can you disprove my hunch, based on experience? you seriously can't be that stupid? Time to pull your head out of your arse: THE man who allegedly set himself on fire in a suburban Melbourne bank is believed to be a refugee from Myanmar, also known as Burma, living in Australia on a bridging visa. A Rohinga = Muslim. My gosh, you really are that stupid! http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1479511507 and relevance to the protests in Indonesia?

Yeah - it's all 'Muslims behaving badly' because they are not afforded the estimation they think they deserve - so they go apesh!t. Their standard response.

They suffer from an inflated sense of their religion's greatness and they press home this mental delusion with acts of menacing violence everywhere you look.

the only one going apesh1t is you. Some bloke losing the plot in Melbourne has nothing whatsoever to do with protests in Indonesia last month.

The fact that you have to try and link the two shows that you know just how pathetic your argument really is

Jakarta
http://www.smh.com.au/content/dam/images/g/s/i/o/u/z/image.related.articleLeadwide.620x349.gsifnm.png/1478308902677.jpg

Melbourne:
https://s.yimg.com/dh/ap/default/161117/cbafire.jpg

Link? Disgruntled Muslims.

Frank wrote on Nov 19^th, 2016 at 10:18am:

Link? Disgruntled Islamaphobes.

John Smith wrote on Nov 19^th, 2016 at 10:19am:

Frank wrote on Nov 19th, 2016 at 10:18am: Link? Disgruntled Islamaphobes.

:'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(

Yeah, sure, everyone MAKES Muslims burn things. It cannot be helped. They are never in control of themselves, always everyone else is. The whole world makes Muslims do bad things which just PROVES how islamophobes they all are.

Muslim violence PROVES that everyone is an Islamophobe.

Frank wrote on Nov 19^th, 2016 at 10:37am:

Yeah, sure, everyone MAKES Muslims burn things.

Frank wrote on Nov 19^th, 2016 at 10:37am:

Yeah, sure, everyone MAKES Muslims burn things.

what do you blame when non muslims burn things? Is it the bibles fault? Do we blame the bible for every bad thing christians do?

or is it one rule for them, another for you?

If ideology causes it you blame the ideology.

That's the one big fault islam has, islamic ideology urges causes and motivates 99.99999% of all the muslim barbarity around the globe today.

The greatest fear muslims and their apologists have, is that one day islam has to address this uncivilised ideology, they know critical analysis of the tenets of evil will bring islam down.

John Smith wrote on Nov 19^th, 2016 at 10:58am:

Frank wrote on Nov 19th, 2016 at 10:37am: Yeah, sure, everyone MAKES Muslims burn things. Frank wrote on Nov 19th, 2016 at 10:37am: Yeah, sure, everyone MAKES Muslims burn things. what do you blame when non muslims burn things? Is it the bibles fault? Do we blame the bible for every bad thing christians do? or is it one rule for them, another for you?

YOU, Karnal, Gandalf, Leftwing, Turdy, Brian etc etc  excuse Islam and Muslims every time when Muslims do something terrible in the name of Islam and as Muslims.

Frank wrote on Nov 19^th, 2016 at 1:53pm:

YOU, Karnal, Gandalf, Leftwing, Turdy, Brian etc etc  excuse Islam and Muslims every time when Muslims do something terrible in the name of Islam and as Muslims.

there is a difference between not blaming Islam, and excusing Islam. That you find it difficult to even consider such a concept shows just how retarded you are. You are no better than the fanatics you condemn. The only difference is they have the balls to stand by their convictions and you have the internet to hide behind.

John Smith wrote on Nov 19^th, 2016 at 2:06pm:

Frank wrote on Nov 19th, 2016 at 1:53pm: YOU, Karnal, Gandalf, Leftwing, Turdy, Brian etc etc  excuse Islam and Muslims every time when Muslims do something terrible in the name of Islam and as Muslims. there is a difference between not blaming Islam, and excusing Islam. That you find it difficult to even consider such a concept shows just how retarded you are. You are no better than the fanatics you condemn. The only difference is they have the balls to stand by their convictions and you have the internet to hide behind.

Well, Islam is at the heart of Islamic ideology which is responsible for decades of worldwide Islamic jihad. I blame Islam for Islamic jihad. 

What do you blame for Islamic jihad?

Frank wrote on Nov 19^th, 2016 at 2:18pm:

What do you blame for Islamic jihad?

stupid fanatics ...

John Smith wrote on Nov 19^th, 2016 at 2:19pm:

Frank wrote on Nov 19th, 2016 at 2:18pm: What do you blame for Islamic jihad? stupid fanatics ...

:'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(

Islam has nuffin to do wiv Islamic jihad.