Oh goody. Our favorite Europeanesque Muslim Nato member is becoming IS.

No link yet, just heard on ABC radio (Matt Brown) there are reports of gangs of bearded mean abusing, physically and verbally men for drinking in bars and shouting at women without headscarf that they'll be next.

I Blame Islam IBI

Egypt, Turkey, and Pakistan have the most Westernised communities in the Islamic world. The trouble is, its like mixing oil and water. We think our multicultural approach is infallible because of the emphasis on human rights. The inclusion a culture that does not believe in Human Rights (Islam) is doomed by definition. We are just importing the problems of the above three examples. It is a cultural confrontation, and you can hide your head in the sand, or decide which side you are on: Western ideals or Muzlim ideals. Its not that complicated, but you are going to have to be prepared to fight.

issuevoter wrote on Jul 18^th, 2016 at 8:39am:

...........Egypt, Turkey, and Pakistan ..............

yes, well there are 3 countries i want to have nothing to do with

Also reports of increased attacks on religious minoritys

We have nothing to worry about. Our forum's Islam expert reassured us of Turkey's freedom and liberty only a couple of weeks ago.


polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 30^th, 2016 at 4:28pm:

Turkey is proving remarkably successful at advancing a progressive, liberal-minded Islamic culture into their society.

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 30^th, 2016 at 2:07pm:

You are right that religion has become more prominent, but wrong to equate that with lack of liberty, or even 'liberal mindedness'. The great late President Turgut Ozal was a devout muslim, and also a believer in liberty and private enterprise. Whats important to note though, is that he actually saw the two as complimentary - as any muslim from the rationalist school will tell you. Through his notion of "the three freedom" - ideas, religion and enterprise -Ozal sought to build a Turkish economy that was pro-enterprise and pro-liberty, using Islam as the vehicle. Thus begat the era of the new Islamic Turkish revival - based on freedom and enterprise. Which was really just a continuation of the same Islamic ideals carried by the 'Young Ottomans' in the 19th and early 20th century, before militant secularists such as the 'Young Turks' took over. In fact Ozal's, and later Erdogan's AKPs vision of Islam's role as an enabler of economic and personal freedoms, has a strong scholarly basis, through such works as the 'hadith project'. But whats really funny here is for you to speak disparagingly of 'Turkish Islamism' in the context of liberty. What a joke - given the regard the Kemalists had and still have for Turkish people's liberties! Turks today enjoy far more freedom and democracy today under the 'Islamists' than they did under the anti-Islam secularists - and its precisely because of Islam.

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 30^th, 2016 at 4:28pm:

You'll be pleased to know that since the mid 19th century, Islamist rulers in Turkey have been the best friend of minorities. For example during the 19th century, before the secularists took over: - all subjects of the Ottoman Empire were granted equal status before the law - regardless of race or religion - apostasy was legalised - non-Islamic religions were protected - homosexuality was legalised Basically, over the last century or so, its been the Islamists who protect individual rights liberties in Turkey, and the secularists who take them away.

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 30^th, 2016 at 7:02pm:

while Erdogan has gone a bit over the top with his rhetoric, I don't see much evidence of actual moves to suppress democracy in practice - apart from a gaoling here and there. ...In any case, one has to put this into perspective and to understand the breathtaking hypocricy of the kemalist opposition - who would move to suppress religious freedoms - as well as many other freedoms, including yes, gays and journalists - in the blink of an eye - as they did for many decades last century.

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 1^st, 2016 at 3:03pm:

...It remains a fact that in Turkey those on the side of freedom and democracy have, for well over a century, been the Islamists, while those on the side of oppression have been the anti-religious Kemalists. I see a lot of scoffing and faux outrage to this statement, but no one has actually tried to refute it.

http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/pan_terra28/9901296/4585/4585_900.jpg

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/58/1f/1c/581f1c500ad67ad1e0d3e1d5e4003fa4.jpg

It has occurred to me that this coup may have been organised and funded by the CIA ...

Turkey has increasingly been descending into an Islamist state that didn't bode well for the future of that region.

Quantum wrote on Jul 18^th, 2016 at 3:24pm:

We have nothing to worry about. Our forum's Islam expert reassured us of Turkey's freedom and liberty only a couple of weeks ago. polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 30th, 2016 at 4:28pm: Turkey is proving remarkably successful at advancing a progressive, liberal-minded Islamic culture into their society. polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 30th, 2016 at 2:07pm: You are right that religion has become more prominent, but wrong to equate that with lack of liberty, or even 'liberal mindedness'. The great late President Turgut Ozal was a devout muslim, and also a believer in liberty and private enterprise. Whats important to note though, is that he actually saw the two as complimentary - as any muslim from the rationalist school will tell you. Through his notion of "the three freedom" - ideas, religion and enterprise -Ozal sought to build a Turkish economy that was pro-enterprise and pro-liberty, using Islam as the vehicle. Thus begat the era of the new Islamic Turkish revival - based on freedom and enterprise. Which was really just a continuation of the same Islamic ideals carried by the 'Young Ottomans' in the 19th and early 20th century, before militant secularists such as the 'Young Turks' took over. In fact Ozal's, and later Erdogan's AKPs vision of Islam's role as an enabler of economic and personal freedoms, has a strong scholarly basis, through such works as the 'hadith project'. But whats really funny here is for you to speak disparagingly of 'Turkish Islamism' in the context of liberty. What a joke - given the regard the Kemalists had and still have for Turkish people's liberties! Turks today enjoy far more freedom and democracy today under the 'Islamists' than they did under the anti-Islam secularists - and its precisely because of Islam.  polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 30th, 2016 at 4:28pm: You'll be pleased to know that since the mid 19th century, Islamist rulers in Turkey have been the best friend of minorities. For example during the 19th century, before the secularists took over: - all subjects of the Ottoman Empire were granted equal status before the law - regardless of race or religion - apostasy was legalised - non-Islamic religions were protected - homosexuality was legalised Basically, over the last century or so, its been the Islamists who protect individual rights liberties in Turkey, and the secularists who take them away. polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 30th, 2016 at 7:02pm: while Erdogan has gone a bit over the top with his rhetoric, I don't see much evidence of actual moves to suppress democracy in practice - apart from a gaoling here and there. ...In any case, one has to put this into perspective and to understand the breathtaking hypocricy of the kemalist opposition - who would move to suppress religious freedoms - as well as many other freedoms, including yes, gays and journalists - in the blink of an eye - as they did for many decades last century. polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 1st, 2016 at 3:03pm: ...It remains a fact that in Turkey those on the side of freedom and democracy have, for well over a century, been the Islamists, while those on the side of oppression have been the anti-religious Kemalists. I see a lot of scoffing and faux outrage to this statement, but no one has actually tried to refute it.

Gandalf has previously tried the same trick with Malaysia and Indonesia. It took quite some convincing that a Malaysian state really did pass the death penalty for apostasy into law, and no it was not a joke.

6000 arrested now.
It's a purge on the secular society.
Hello ISIS

If my mail is correct, this coup wasn't a religious versus secular affair. The people that attempted the coup was another religious group called the "Gulen group". Erdogan and the Gulen group have been at loggerheads for a few years now. Read about the group here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%BClen_movement

Turkey becoming an Islamic State

to early to tell yet.

We'll see what develops about the coup attempt over the next few weeks and months

John Smith wrote on Jul 18^th, 2016 at 11:38pm:

Turkey becoming an Islamic State to early to tell yet. We'll see what develops about the coup attempt over the next few weeks and months

I heard 2 experts on the radiosaying a civil war is a 50/50 chance.

Quantum wrote on Jul 18^th, 2016 at 3:24pm:

We have nothing to worry about. Our forum's Islam expert reassured us of Turkey's freedom and liberty only a couple of weeks ago. polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 30th, 2016 at 4:28pm: Turkey is proving remarkably successful at advancing a progressive, liberal-minded Islamic culture into their society.

... dear o dear o dear ... When will gandalf ever learn that trying to window-dress Islamic societies with conjecture and spin to resemble something to be admired and emulated by the West is as hopeless a task as King Canute trying the beat back the waves?

Islam is a formula and blue print for theocratic dictatorships, and not liberal democracies, as gandalf would know only too well.

Lord Herbert wrote on Jul 19^th, 2016 at 7:33am:

Quantum wrote on Jul 18th, 2016 at 3:24pm: We have nothing to worry about. Our forum's Islam expert reassured us of Turkey's freedom and liberty only a couple of weeks ago. polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 30th, 2016 at 4:28pm: Turkey is proving remarkably successful at advancing a progressive, liberal-minded Islamic culture into their society. ... dear o dear o dear ... When will gandalf ever learn that trying to window-dress Islamic societies with conjecture and spin to resemble something to be admired and emulated by the West is as hopeless a task as King Canute trying the beat back the waves? Islam is a formula and blue print for theocratic dictatorships, and not liberal democracies, as gandalf would know only too well.

When? That depends how honest he is with himself. His feigned objectivity is for our benefit.

capitosinora wrote on Jul 18^th, 2016 at 5:47pm:

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/58/1f/1c/581f1c500ad67ad1e0d3e1d5e4003fa4.jpg

Ataturk would be astounded to see today how Islam has regained its domination of minds, and that the secular state in Turkey is good as dead. He would be even more astonished that half of Europe thinks he was wrong in his original estimation of Islam.

issuevoter wrote on Jul 20^th, 2016 at 7:53am:

capitosinora wrote on Jul 18th, 2016 at 5:47pm: https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/58/1f/1c/581f1c500ad67ad1e0d3e1d5e4003fa4.jpg Ataturk would be astounded to see today how Islam has regained its domination of minds, and that the secular state in Turkey is good as dead. He would be even more astonished that half of Europe thinks he was wrong in his original estimation of Islam.

School teachers are being arrested now.
Do a bit of google about Islamic creation being taught in Turkish schools.

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jul 18^th, 2016 at 11:26pm:

If my mail is correct, this coup wasn't a religious versus secular affair. The people that attempted the coup was another religious group called the "Gulen group". Erdogan and the Gulen group have been at loggerheads for a few years now. Read about the group here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%BClen_movement

culture-w,

As i say below;

Quote:

Every moslem faction on the planet [and there are probably 1,000's of them], regards itself, as the one and only 'legitimate' competitor, for the 'moslem street'.

THAT, is why ISLAM, and ISLAMIC systems of governance/control over a society, can NEVER, EVER, bring a peaceful, just society....

BECAUSE;
The ne'er do well moslems in such a society [i.e. the ruled over and powerless], will always claim they are being oppressed.

WHILE;
The moslem overlords [i.e. govt., aka, 'protectors of Allah's will'] of society [e.g. Saddam Husein], will always claim that Allah brought them to power, so they have a lawful religious authority to rule the society.      !!!!!


ISLAM's philosophy/'ideals' simply, enables, creates, 'sets up', and religiously justifies tyrannical government.

I would estimate that perhaps 90% of refugees in the world today, are people who are fleeing a moslem majority [Sharia] jurisdiction.

And why can they flee such jurisdictions, today [and not 50-100 years ago] ?

Because today Western secular nations are providing havens/sanctuaries for these MOSLEMS, to flee to !!!

.....and NO!!! we should not be doing this!
moslems should accept the consequence of their own choices.
and the West providing sanctuaries, merely transports their contagion [ISLAM] into the Western secular nations!



Yadda said....
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1427748332/176#176

Quote:

Yadda paraphrases..... [the argument which is made by every moslem faction ------- > ]        'Whether those who oppose us identify themselves as non-moslems or whether they claim to be moslems,          whoever opposes us and our views, is an infidel, and an oppressor.         Because it is only we, who are the true, and pure, and rightly guided moslems.' Isn't that correct [Shia leaning] gandalf ?           :) Every moslem faction on the planet [and there are probably 1,000's of them], regards itself, as the one and only 'legitimate' competitor, for the 'moslem street'. !!!!! . Yadda said.... http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1412206324/1#1 [quote] The truth is that in the real 'ISLAMIC' world, every distinct moslem ISLAMIC group, is in competition with and against, every other distinct ISLAMIC group. Each and every distinct ISLAMIC group [separated by distance from each other], will assert that - they only - are the true expression of pure ISLAM. And therefore it is they alone, who have the right to both subjugate and to rule over every other ISLAMIC group [....even those moslems who ostensibly belong their own moslem faction]. It is true!           :)

.



Yadda said....
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1410694482/49#49

Quote:

Every moslem ISLAMIC group, is in competition with every other ISLAMIC group. There have been wars among moslems, since 2 minutes after Mohammed died. Hamas, ISIS, Taleban and Boko Haram, all proffer themselves to the 'moslem street', individually, as the true expression of ISLAM. And so do the Saudis, and the Iranians. The truth is that moslems form alliances, with those they hate, against those they hate even more!!! ISIS and Al-Qaeda are COMPETITORS for the 'moslem street' !!!!! The Saudis and Al-Qaeda are COMPETITORS for the 'moslem street' !!!!! And so it is, with every moslem group. Even moslem groups resident within Australia, tell us, that they are the true expression of ISLAM. And if they had the means and the opportunity, those very moslem groups resident within Australia, would be slaughtering each other - AND US. It is true!           :) WAKE UP.

[/quote]

Yadda wrote on Jul 20^th, 2016 at 8:36am:

ISLAM's philosophy/'ideals' simply, enables, creates, 'sets up', and religiously justifies tyrannical government. I would estimate that perhaps 90% of refugees in the world today, are people who are fleeing a moslem majority [Sharia] jurisdiction. And why can they flee such jurisdictions, today [and not 50-100 years ago] ? Because today Western secular nations are providing havens/sanctuaries for these MOSLEMS, to flee to !!! .....and NO!!! we should not be doing this! moslems should accept the consequence of their own choices. and the West providing sanctuaries, merely transports their contagion [ISLAM] into the Western secular nations!

ISLAM is a grievance culture/philosophy,          ....which justifies and encourages violence against their 'oppressors'.

And ISLAM teaches moslems to always perceive their 'oppressors' to be people who are not them [i.e. the righteous moslem]!!!



e.g.
"Let those fight in the cause of Allah Who sell the life of this world for the hereafter. To him who fighteth in the cause of Allah,- whether he is slain or gets victory - Soon shall We give him a reward of great (value).
And why should ye not fight in the cause of Allah and of those who, being weak, are ill-treated (and oppressed)?- Men, women, and children, whose cry is: "Our Lord! Rescue us from this town, whose people are oppressors; and raise for us from thee one who will protect; and raise for us from thee one who will help!"
Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah, and those who reject Faith Fight in the cause of Evil: So fight ye against the friends of Satan: feeble indeed is the cunning of Satan."
Koran 4.74-76

Oh, shut up, man...

Square-up the murder of European colonialism (which is still ongoing, in many opinions) before shouting down Islam.  Islam as just as bloody and backwards as Christianity or Judaism.  And here's a counter-quote.  ::)

"Deuteronomy 17
If there be found among you, within any of thy gates which the LORD thy God giveth thee, man or woman, that hath wrought wickedness in the sight of the LORD thy God, in transgressing his covenant; 17:3 And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded; 17:4 And it be told thee, and thou hast heard of it, and enquired diligently, and, behold, it be true, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought in Israel; 17:5 Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die."

Onto the real issue, that nutjob Erdogan.  I am not sure what his goal is, but I do know that it is bad for the world and anyone who values human life and freedom.

.......15000 school staff arrested .

Gordon wrote on Jul 20^th, 2016 at 9:39am:

.......15000 school staff arrested .

Figure goes up by 5,000 each time I hear an update...  :(

AYanker wrote on Jul 20^th, 2016 at 9:45am:

Gordon wrote on Jul 20th, 2016 at 9:39am: .......15000 school staff arrested . Figure goes up by 5,000 each time I hear an update...  :(

This is actually an Islamists coup.

AYanker wrote on Jul 20^th, 2016 at 9:25am:

Oh, shut up, man... Square-up the murder of European colonialism (which is still ongoing, in many opinions) before shouting down Islam.  Islam as just as bloody and backwards as Christianity or Judaism.  And here's a counter-quote.  ::) "Deuteronomy 17 If there be found among you, within any of thy gates which the LORD thy God giveth thee, man or woman, that hath wrought wickedness in the sight of the LORD thy God, in transgressing his covenant; 17:3 And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded; 17:4 And it be told thee, and thou hast heard of it, and enquired diligently, and, behold, it be true, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought in Israel; 17:5 Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die."

Yanker,

You are mistaken.

But you are too ignorant to know it.




ISLAM gives not only a holy sanction, but Allah's encouragement in the Koran, to murder disbelievers, BECAUSE THEY ARE DISBELIEVERS.


Notwithstanding your Deuteronomy quote, the God of Israel [the God of Christianity and Judaism] does not give, and has never given, any sanction to kill someone, BECAUSE HE IS A DISBELIEVER.

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1441760279/2#2

They're purging all institutions of Gulen group members.

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jul 20^th, 2016 at 10:10am:

They're purging all institutions of Gulen group members.

This is because Gulen group members are the enemies of Allah !




Gulen group members are for the 'high jump' !

------------ >

"The punishment of those who......strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world..."
Koran 5.33




AND THOSE WHO ARE GUILTY OF SEDITION AND TREASON ?

"Truly, if the Hypocrites, and those in whose hearts is a disease, and those who stir up sedition in the City....whenever they are found, they shall be seized and slain (without mercy)."
Koran 33.60,61


"....Lo! Allah is an enemy to those who reject Faith."
Koran 2.98


"....those who reject Allah have no protector."
Koran 47.008
v. 8-11


n.b.

Infidels, have no protection under ISLAMIC law, because they are infidels!

Yadda wrote on Jul 20^th, 2016 at 10:17am:

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jul 20th, 2016 at 10:10am: They're purging all institutions of Gulen group members. This is because Gulen group members are the enemies of Allah !

From my understanding, the Gulen group is religious. This is really some personal battle between Erdogan and Fethullah Gülen.

Gordon wrote on Jul 18^th, 2016 at 11:01pm:

6000 arrested now. It's a purge on the secular society. Hello ISIS

Secular my @rse!

It couldn't have happened to a more deserving Muslim country IMO.

issuevoter wrote on Jul 20^th, 2016 at 7:48am:

When? That depends how honest he is with himself. His feigned objectivity is for our benefit.

Needless to say, and very understandably, Gandalf's entire waking hours on this board are devoted to the hopeless task of 'Damage Control' - the same way the ship's engineers tried to stop the sinking of the Titanic.

Lord Herbert wrote on Jul 20^th, 2016 at 12:28pm:

issuevoter wrote on Jul 20th, 2016 at 7:48am: When? That depends how honest he is with himself. His feigned objectivity is for our benefit. Needless to say, and very understandably, Gandalf's entire waking hours on this board are devoted to the hopeless task of 'Damage Control' - the same way the ship's engineers tried to stop the sinking of the Titanic.

:D :D

Life is all about perspective. The sinking of the Titanic was a miracle to the lobsters in the ship's kitchen.

Lord Herbert wrote on Jul 20^th, 2016 at 12:28pm:

issuevoter wrote on Jul 20th, 2016 at 7:48am: When? That depends how honest he is with himself. His feigned objectivity is for our benefit. Needless to say, and very understandably, Gandalf's entire waking hours on this board are devoted to the hopeless task of 'Damage Control' - the same way the ship's engineers tried to stop the sinking of the Titanic.

And he does it for no pay.

Now that's what I call obsession dedication.

aquascoot wrote on Jul 20^th, 2016 at 1:13pm:

Life is all about perspective. The sinking of the Titanic was a miracle to the lobsters in the ship's kitchen.

;D Good one! But, err ... didn't the ship sink 4 miles down where the pressure was so many tons per square inch?

A relative of mine was on the Titanic's sister ship - the one that didn't go down.

Lisa Jones wrote on Jul 20^th, 2016 at 3:07pm:

Lord Herbert wrote on Jul 20th, 2016 at 12:28pm: issuevoter wrote on Jul 20th, 2016 at 7:48am: When? That depends how honest he is with himself. His feigned objectivity is for our benefit. Needless to say, and very understandably, Gandalf's entire waking hours on this board are devoted to the hopeless task of 'Damage Control' - the same way the ship's engineers tried to stop the sinking of the Titanic. And he does it for no pay. Now that's what I call obsession dedication.

Speaking of lobsters ... poor gandalf entered a lobster-trap the day he decided that Islam had The Answers he needed to ascend to a higher plane of spiritual enlightenment - something that apparently the bible couldn't provide for him.

But no sooner had he joined this Pathway to Righteousness - when all hell broke lose on the international front, with car bombs, suicide belts, beheadings, mass-rape, planes and trucks used as projectiles, knives, axes ... all the good things that Islam has become famous for in recent times.

And like a lobster in its trap, he can't back out now. There's no retreat. It's like joining the Mafia, it's a One Way ticket. Apostasy is frowned upon, and gandy is not yet ready to lose his head over quitting this inspirational faith that makes the news on a daily basis for all the wrong reasons.

I would like to start a Crowd Fund to pay for gandalf to have cosmetic surgery so he can walk away from Islam without being a marked man ...

 

AYanker wrote on Jul 20^th, 2016 at 9:25am:

Oh, shut up, man... Square-up the murder of European colonialism (which is still ongoing, in many opinions) before shouting down Islam.  Islam as just as bloody and backwards as Christianity or Judaism.  And here's a counter-quote.  ::) "Deuteronomy 17 If there be found among you, within any of thy gates which the LORD thy God giveth thee, man or woman, that hath wrought wickedness in the sight of the LORD thy God, in transgressing his covenant; 17:3 And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded; 17:4 And it be told thee, and thou hast heard of it, and enquired diligently, and, behold, it be true, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought in Israel; 17:5 Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die."

Can you find anything in any other religion that is comparable to chapter 9 of the Quran?

Greece should attack Turkey - the last of the Ottomans.
And reclaim their Anatolia that was stolen long ago.
It might need a scrub and wash though.
Been looking very Brown for centuries now. :D

freediver wrote on Mar 23^rd, 2021 at 6:19pm:

Can you find anything in any other religion that is comparable to chapter 9 of the Quran?

Quantity or quality questions immediately arise. However, this question has no simple answer.

https://timothyrenner.github.io/datascience/2015/12/02/violence-in-religious-text.html
We might more fruitfully ask why so many civilizations have felt comfortable inflicting obscene cruelties in the name of their imagined God/Gods.

Ayn Marx wrote on Mar 23^rd, 2021 at 7:15pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 23rd, 2021 at 6:19pm: Can you find anything in any other religion that is comparable to chapter 9 of the Quran? Quantity or quality questions immediately arise. However, this question has no simple answer. https://timothyrenner.github.io/datascience/2015/12/02/violence-in-religious-text.html We might more fruitfully ask why so many civilizations have felt comfortable inflicting obscene cruelties in the name of their imagined God/Gods.

Sure it does. No.