Reports of more than 50 dead.
I blame Islam
http://m.smh.com.au/world/suicide-bomber-in-istanbul-airport-blast-says-turkish-officials-reports-20160628-gpu43g.html

GordyL wrote on Jun 29^th, 2016 at 9:03am:

Reports of more than 50 dead. I blame Islam http://m.smh.com.au/world/suicide-bomber-in-istanbul-airport-blast-says-turkish-officials-reports-20160628-gpu43g.html

if it was a suicide bomber who else?>...


3 bombs.. bloody hell what sort of security do they have there.... none by the sound of it..

my daughter and her family are on a plane right now coming home to Aust its not a good feeling what with planes catching fire and now this...its horrible nowhere is safe we are kidding ourselves if this cant happen here...

The West has many ailments, but Islam has cancer. They need to start cutting it out.

issuevoter wrote on Jun 29^th, 2016 at 12:45pm:

The West has many ailments, but Islam has cancer. They need to start cutting it out.

Turkey is proving remarkably successful at advancing a progressive, liberal-minded Islamic culture into their society. I suspect thats why they are being targeted by Islamists.

What a loser this murdering idiot was always going to be.

ALERT:  IDIOT BLOWS HIMSELF UP.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_QKYBK04AmA

Aussie wrote on Jun 29^th, 2016 at 7:01pm:

What a loser this murdering idiot was always going to be. ALERT:  IDIOT BLOWS HIMSELF UP. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_QKYBK04AmA

He was shouting Allahu Akhbar - which, apparently, has nothing to do with Islam or Muslims but is Arabic for 'what about that Westboro Christian'.

Weird.

Frank wrote on Jun 29^th, 2016 at 7:04pm:

Aussie wrote on Jun 29th, 2016 at 7:01pm: What a loser this murdering idiot was always going to be. ALERT:  IDIOT BLOWS HIMSELF UP. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_QKYBK04AmA He was shouting Allahu Akhbar - which, apparently, has nothing to do with Islam or Muslims.

Really?  I did not hear that, but I would not be at all surprised if he did.

Aussie wrote on Jun 29^th, 2016 at 7:06pm:

Frank wrote on Jun 29th, 2016 at 7:04pm: Aussie wrote on Jun 29th, 2016 at 7:01pm: What a loser this murdering idiot was always going to be. ALERT:  IDIOT BLOWS HIMSELF UP. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_QKYBK04AmA He was shouting Allahu Akhbar - which, apparently, has nothing to do with Islam or Muslims. Really?  I did not hear that, but I would not be at all surprised if he did.

;D

"Really"???

Yeas.  I did type ~ Really.  Have another look.  You'll see it.

Really.

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 29^th, 2016 at 1:14pm:

issuevoter wrote on Jun 29th, 2016 at 12:45pm: The West has many ailments, but Islam has cancer. They need to start cutting it out. Turkey is proving remarkably successful at advancing a progressive, liberal-minded Islamic culture into their society.

It used to be. It reached its peak in secularism in the late 1970s. Religion emerged (again) in the early 1980s in an attempt to try to halt the violent fighting between the left and right. Since Erdogan came to power religion has become more and more prominent.

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jun 30^th, 2016 at 1:10pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 29th, 2016 at 1:14pm: issuevoter wrote on Jun 29th, 2016 at 12:45pm: The West has many ailments, but Islam has cancer. They need to start cutting it out. Turkey is proving remarkably successful at advancing a progressive, liberal-minded Islamic culture into their society. It used to be. It reached its peak in secularism in the late 1970s. Religion emerged (again) in the early 1980s in an attempt to try to halt the violent fighting between the left and right. Since Erdogan came to power religion has become more and more prominent.

Misty you are drawing a false dichotomy here.

You are right that religion has become more prominent, but wrong to equate that with lack of liberty, or even 'liberal mindedness'. The great late President Turgut Ozal was a devout muslim, and also a believer in liberty and private enterprise. Whats important to note though, is that he actually saw the two as complimentary - as any muslim from the rationalist school will tell you. Through his notion of "the three freedom" - ideas, religion and enterprise -Ozal sought to build a Turkish economy that was pro-enterprise and pro-liberty, using Islam as the vehicle. Thus begat the era of the new Islamic Turkish revival - based on freedom and enterprise. Which was really just a continuation of the same Islamic ideals carried by the 'Young Ottomans' in the 19th and early 20th century, before militant secularists such as the 'Young Turks' took over.

In fact Ozal's, and later Erdogan's AKPs vision of Islam's role as an enabler of economic and personal freedoms, has a strong scholarly basis, through such works as the 'hadith project'.

But whats really funny here is for you to speak disparagingly of 'Turkish Islamism' in the context of liberty. What a joke - given the regard the Kemalists had and still have for Turkish people's liberties! Turks today enjoy far more freedom and democracy today under the 'Islamists' than they did under the anti-Islam secularists - and its precisely because of Islam. 

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 30^th, 2016 at 2:07pm:

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jun 30th, 2016 at 1:10pm: polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 29th, 2016 at 1:14pm: issuevoter wrote on Jun 29th, 2016 at 12:45pm: The West has many ailments, but Islam has cancer. They need to start cutting it out. Turkey is proving remarkably successful at advancing a progressive, liberal-minded Islamic culture into their society. It used to be. It reached its peak in secularism in the late 1970s. Religion emerged (again) in the early 1980s in an attempt to try to halt the violent fighting between the left and right. Since Erdogan came to power religion has become more and more prominent. Misty you are drawing a false dichotomy here. You are right that religion has become more prominent, but wrong to equate that with lack of liberty, or even 'liberal mindedness'. The great late President Turgut Ozal was a devout muslim, and also a believer in liberty and private enterprise. Whats important to note though, is that he actually saw the two as complimentary - as any muslim from the rationalist school will tell you. Through his notion of "the three freedom" - ideas, religion and enterprise -Ozal sought to build a Turkish economy that was pro-enterprise and pro-liberty, using Islam as the vehicle. Thus begat the era of the new Islamic Turkish revival - based on freedom and enterprise. Which was really just a continuation of the same Islamic ideals carried by the 'Young Ottomans' in the 19th and early 20th century, before militant secularists such as the 'Young Turks' took over. In fact Ozal's, and later Erdogan's AKPs vision of Islam's role as an enabler of economic and personal freedoms, has a strong scholarly basis, through such works as the 'hadith project'. But whats really funny here is for you to speak disparagingly of 'Turkish Islamism' in the context of liberty. What a joke - given the regard the Kemalists had and still have for Turkish people's liberties! Turks today enjoy far more freedom and democracy today under the 'Islamists' than they did under the anti-Islam secularists - and its precisely because of Islam.

Do gays get "liberty" under Islamic rulership? What about atheists and the many other minorities??

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 30^th, 2016 at 2:07pm:

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jun 30th, 2016 at 1:10pm: polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 29th, 2016 at 1:14pm: issuevoter wrote on Jun 29th, 2016 at 12:45pm: The West has many ailments, but Islam has cancer. They need to start cutting it out. Turkey is proving remarkably successful at advancing a progressive, liberal-minded Islamic culture into their society. It used to be. It reached its peak in secularism in the late 1970s. Religion emerged (again) in the early 1980s in an attempt to try to halt the violent fighting between the left and right. Since Erdogan came to power religion has become more and more prominent. Misty you are drawing a false dichotomy here. You are right that religion has become more prominent, but wrong to equate that with lack of liberty, or even 'liberal mindedness'. The great late President Turgut Ozal was a devout muslim, and also a believer in liberty and private enterprise. Whats important to note though, is that he actually saw the two as complimentary - as any muslim from the rationalist school will tell you. Through his notion of "the three freedom" - ideas, religion and enterprise -Ozal sought to build a Turkish economy that was pro-enterprise and pro-liberty, using Islam as the vehicle. Thus begat the era of the new Islamic Turkish revival - based on freedom and enterprise. Which was really just a continuation of the same Islamic ideals carried by the 'Young Ottomans' in the 19th and early 20th century, before militant secularists such as the 'Young Turks' took over. In fact Ozal's, and later Erdogan's AKPs vision of Islam's role as an enabler of economic and personal freedoms, has a strong scholarly basis, through such works as the 'hadith project'. But whats really funny here is for you to speak disparagingly of 'Turkish Islamism' in the context of liberty. What a joke - given the regard the Kemalists had and still have for Turkish people's liberties! Turks today enjoy far more freedom and democracy today under the 'Islamists' than they did under the anti-Islam secularists - and its precisely because of Islam.

Just to be clear, you're arguing that Erdogan has used Islam to bring about liberty and freedom, and Turkey today is progressing towards being a nation with even more freedoms?

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 29^th, 2016 at 1:14pm:

issuevoter wrote on Jun 29th, 2016 at 12:45pm: The West has many ailments, but Islam has cancer. They need to start cutting it out. Turkey is proving remarkably successful at advancing a progressive, liberal-minded Islamic culture into their society. I suspect thats why they are being targeted by Islamists.

I believe you know very well that Erdogan has been leading the country back into a state of saturation with Islam in all aspects of life.

Aussie wrote on Jun 29^th, 2016 at 7:01pm:

What a loser this murdering idiot was always going to be. ALERT:  IDIOT BLOWS HIMSELF UP. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_QKYBK04AmA

There's nothing to see except a flash.

The question begs : why didn't the policeman shoot him dead while he was groping for the rip-cord?

Mr Hammer wrote on Jun 30^th, 2016 at 2:12pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 30th, 2016 at 2:07pm: Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jun 30th, 2016 at 1:10pm: polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 29th, 2016 at 1:14pm: issuevoter wrote on Jun 29th, 2016 at 12:45pm: The West has many ailments, but Islam has cancer. They need to start cutting it out. Turkey is proving remarkably successful at advancing a progressive, liberal-minded Islamic culture into their society. It used to be. It reached its peak in secularism in the late 1970s. Religion emerged (again) in the early 1980s in an attempt to try to halt the violent fighting between the left and right. Since Erdogan came to power religion has become more and more prominent. Misty you are drawing a false dichotomy here. You are right that religion has become more prominent, but wrong to equate that with lack of liberty, or even 'liberal mindedness'. The great late President Turgut Ozal was a devout muslim, and also a believer in liberty and private enterprise. Whats important to note though, is that he actually saw the two as complimentary - as any muslim from the rationalist school will tell you. Through his notion of "the three freedom" - ideas, religion and enterprise -Ozal sought to build a Turkish economy that was pro-enterprise and pro-liberty, using Islam as the vehicle. Thus begat the era of the new Islamic Turkish revival - based on freedom and enterprise. Which was really just a continuation of the same Islamic ideals carried by the 'Young Ottomans' in the 19th and early 20th century, before militant secularists such as the 'Young Turks' took over. In fact Ozal's, and later Erdogan's AKPs vision of Islam's role as an enabler of economic and personal freedoms, has a strong scholarly basis, through such works as the 'hadith project'. But whats really funny here is for you to speak disparagingly of 'Turkish Islamism' in the context of liberty. What a joke - given the regard the Kemalists had and still have for Turkish people's liberties! Turks today enjoy far more freedom and democracy today under the 'Islamists' than they did under the anti-Islam secularists - and its precisely because of Islam.  Do gays get "liberty" under Islamic rulership? What about atheists and the many other minorities??

Mr Hammer you'll be pleased to know that since the mid 19th century, Islamist rulers in Turkey have been the best friend of minorities. For example during the 19th century, before the secularists took over:

- all subjects of the Ottoman Empire were granted equal status before the law - regardless of race or religion
- apostasy was legalised
- non-Islamic religions were protected
- homosexuality was legalised

Basically, over the last century or so, its been the Islamists who protect individual rights liberties in Turkey, and the secularists who take them away.

Quantum wrote on Jun 30^th, 2016 at 2:54pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 30th, 2016 at 2:07pm: Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jun 30th, 2016 at 1:10pm: polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 29th, 2016 at 1:14pm: issuevoter wrote on Jun 29th, 2016 at 12:45pm: The West has many ailments, but Islam has cancer. They need to start cutting it out. Turkey is proving remarkably successful at advancing a progressive, liberal-minded Islamic culture into their society. It used to be. It reached its peak in secularism in the late 1970s. Religion emerged (again) in the early 1980s in an attempt to try to halt the violent fighting between the left and right. Since Erdogan came to power religion has become more and more prominent. Misty you are drawing a false dichotomy here. You are right that religion has become more prominent, but wrong to equate that with lack of liberty, or even 'liberal mindedness'. The great late President Turgut Ozal was a devout muslim, and also a believer in liberty and private enterprise. Whats important to note though, is that he actually saw the two as complimentary - as any muslim from the rationalist school will tell you. Through his notion of "the three freedom" - ideas, religion and enterprise -Ozal sought to build a Turkish economy that was pro-enterprise and pro-liberty, using Islam as the vehicle. Thus begat the era of the new Islamic Turkish revival - based on freedom and enterprise. Which was really just a continuation of the same Islamic ideals carried by the 'Young Ottomans' in the 19th and early 20th century, before militant secularists such as the 'Young Turks' took over. In fact Ozal's, and later Erdogan's AKPs vision of Islam's role as an enabler of economic and personal freedoms, has a strong scholarly basis, through such works as the 'hadith project'. But whats really funny here is for you to speak disparagingly of 'Turkish Islamism' in the context of liberty. What a joke - given the regard the Kemalists had and still have for Turkish people's liberties! Turks today enjoy far more freedom and democracy today under the 'Islamists' than they did under the anti-Islam secularists - and its precisely because of Islam.  Just to be clear, you're arguing that Erdogan has used Islam to bring about liberty and freedom, and Turkey today is progressing towards being a nation with even more freedoms?

Generally yes. Who do you think it was who banned women wearing the veil from attending university? Who do you think lifted that ban? Now women are free to go to university and wear what they want - thanks to the 'Islamists'.

Shall I go through the long list of religious practices that the Kemalists banned, which the Islamists lifted? The people who were persecuted, who are no longer? Has the Islamist's removal of Islamic persecution resulted in the persecution of non-Islamic behaviour? I don't think so - but if I'm wrong, please show me where this has been the case.

I can't believe what I'm reading.

The Arabs revolted against the Turks and the Armenia's were killed by the hundreds of thousands, but apparently everyone was treated equally in the Ottoman Empire. Today Erdogan is locking up journalist, persecuting gays, shutting down peaceful protests, but apparently he is helping bring more freedoms to the country.

What a load of crap. Nothing but obvious Muslim propaganda.

Quantum wrote on Jun 30^th, 2016 at 4:45pm:

I can't believe what I'm reading. The Arabs revolted against the Turks and the Armenia's were killed by the hundreds of thousands, but apparently everyone was treated equally in the Ottoman Empire. Today Erdogan is locking up journalist, persecuting gays, shutting down peaceful protests, but apparently he is helping bring more freedoms to the country. What a load of crap. Nothing but obvious Muslim propaganda.

Are we including the Greeks that were killed?

I always find it so interesting when those who are so ignorant of a subject chose to comment about it, ignoring what the original poster said about it.    ::)

GordyL wrote on Jun 30^th, 2016 at 5:02pm:

Quantum wrote on Jun 30th, 2016 at 4:45pm: I can't believe what I'm reading. The Arabs revolted against the Turks and the Armenia's were killed by the hundreds of thousands, but apparently everyone was treated equally in the Ottoman Empire. Today Erdogan is locking up journalist, persecuting gays, shutting down peaceful protests, but apparently he is helping bring more freedoms to the country. What a load of crap. Nothing but obvious Muslim propaganda. Are we including the Greeks that were killed?

Or the Armenians for that matter?

That's 2 genocides right there.

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 30^th, 2016 at 4:28pm:

Mr Hammer wrote on Jun 30th, 2016 at 2:12pm: polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 30th, 2016 at 2:07pm: Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jun 30th, 2016 at 1:10pm: polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 29th, 2016 at 1:14pm: issuevoter wrote on Jun 29th, 2016 at 12:45pm: The West has many ailments, but Islam has cancer. They need to start cutting it out. Turkey is proving remarkably successful at advancing a progressive, liberal-minded Islamic culture into their society. It used to be. It reached its peak in secularism in the late 1970s. Religion emerged (again) in the early 1980s in an attempt to try to halt the violent fighting between the left and right. Since Erdogan came to power religion has become more and more prominent. Misty you are drawing a false dichotomy here. You are right that religion has become more prominent, but wrong to equate that with lack of liberty, or even 'liberal mindedness'. The great late President Turgut Ozal was a devout muslim, and also a believer in liberty and private enterprise. Whats important to note though, is that he actually saw the two as complimentary - as any muslim from the rationalist school will tell you. Through his notion of "the three freedom" - ideas, religion and enterprise -Ozal sought to build a Turkish economy that was pro-enterprise and pro-liberty, using Islam as the vehicle. Thus begat the era of the new Islamic Turkish revival - based on freedom and enterprise. Which was really just a continuation of the same Islamic ideals carried by the 'Young Ottomans' in the 19th and early 20th century, before militant secularists such as the 'Young Turks' took over. In fact Ozal's, and later Erdogan's AKPs vision of Islam's role as an enabler of economic and personal freedoms, has a strong scholarly basis, through such works as the 'hadith project'. But whats really funny here is for you to speak disparagingly of 'Turkish Islamism' in the context of liberty. What a joke - given the regard the Kemalists had and still have for Turkish people's liberties! Turks today enjoy far more freedom and democracy today under the 'Islamists' than they did under the anti-Islam secularists - and its precisely because of Islam.  Do gays get "liberty" under Islamic rulership? What about atheists and the many other minorities?? Mr Hammer you'll be pleased to know that since the mid 19th century, Islamist rulers in Turkey have been the best friend of minorities.

Yes, that should make Homo happy. He's a staunch defender of the rights of minorities.

Just like FD is a crusader for women's rights, no?

It is interesting what Ataturk had to say about and whom he blamed for the Armenian Genocide:


Quote:

These left-overs from the former Young Turk Party, who should have been made to account for the millions of our Christian subjects who were ruthlessly driven en masse from their homes and massacred, have been restive under the Republican rule. […] They have hitherto lived on plunder, robbery and bribery and become inimical to any idea, or suggestion to enlist in useful labor and earn their living by the honest sweat of their brow… Under the cloak of the opposition party, this element, who forced our country into the Great War against the will of the people, who caused the shedding of rivers of blood of the Turkish youth...

[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Young_Turks#Aftermath_and_legacy]Source[/url]

Appears to me that the previous Caliph, who ruled Turkey until being deposed in 1908, had a relatively benign consideration of the things that Gandalf mentioned:


Quote:

- all subjects of the Ottoman Empire were granted equal status before the law - regardless of race or religion - apostasy was legalised - non-Islamic religions were protected - homosexuality was legalised

Whereas the Young Turks and Attaturk who succeeded him, overturned many of those aspects of Turkish life.  ::)

Quantum wrote on Jun 30^th, 2016 at 4:45pm:

I can't believe what I'm reading. Today Erdogan is locking up journalist, persecuting gays, shutting down peaceful protests, but apparently he is helping bring more freedoms to the country. What a load of crap. Nothing but obvious Muslim propaganda.

Yep. İ won't bother responding to Gandalf.
Turkey will also regulalry block Facebook and You Tube. There's a block on them at the moment due to the recent terrorist attack. Porn is also blocked in Turkey. Whenever there's a protest in Turkey, police with water canons and tear gas break it up. The people themselves are also quite conservative. Women always wear long clothes, covering their arms and legs.

Love how the Ottomans are are regarded as the pinnacle of modern Islam. Pitty they couldn't even get their heads around the printing press :)

İf anyone is interested, the bombers were from Tajikistan. The police suspected one of the bombers before he could get too far. He was wearing a thick jacket in 30+ degree heat. Once the police suspected him he opened fire. Maybe that was the clown that blew himself up on the You Tube clip posted above.

Lisa Jones wrote on Jun 30^th, 2016 at 5:22pm:

GordyL wrote on Jun 30th, 2016 at 5:02pm: Quantum wrote on Jun 30th, 2016 at 4:45pm: I can't believe what I'm reading. The Arabs revolted against the Turks and the Armenia's were killed by the hundreds of thousands, but apparently everyone was treated equally in the Ottoman Empire. Today Erdogan is locking up journalist, persecuting gays, shutting down peaceful protests, but apparently he is helping bring more freedoms to the country. What a load of crap. Nothing but obvious Muslim propaganda. Are we including the Greeks that were killed? Or the Armenians for that matter? That's 2 genocides right there.

And any nong who attempts to minimise/trivialize/excuse these 2 genocides will be treated with contempt and disdain.

GordyL wrote on Jun 30^th, 2016 at 5:37pm:

Love how the Ottomans are are regarded as the pinnacle of modern Islam. Pitty they couldn't even get their heads around the printing press :)

Really?   ::)

Great insight there Brian. Some of the reasons given for the Ottoman's late taking to the printing press:

* it would put the scribes out of work
* they liked pretty caligraphy
* people who were keen on books belong to a "certain class" just like today
* the scribes could copy books rapidly
* Muslims opened their first printing press in 1727 (1400s in Europe)
* the Ottomans "knew about" printing presses for a long time before setting one up

It's unusual for gandalf to so openly suffer a nervous breakdown as he has here, and I hope all of you will join with me in wishing him a hasty recovery.

Erdogan has famously been on a course to de-Westernise Turkey through increased Islamisation in all aspects of society.   


Freedom of the Press

Women’s advocacy groups have for years been warning the government about the sharp deterioration in gender equality and freedoms. But for the most part their voices have fallen on deaf ears. In the past 10 years the number of gender-related homicides has tripled in Turkey. Between 2003 and 2013 domestic violence has increased more than 1,400%. In the Global Gender Gap report Turkey ranks 125th among 142 countries. It still holds the lowest position among OECD countries.

Women's lowly status

The Turkish government not only has remained unresponsive to these complaints, but has carried out a deliberate policy of harassment and intimidation to force thousands of Greeks, Armenians, Assyrians and Jews to abandon their homes and businesses and relocate overseas.

Oppression of minorities

Brian Ross wrote on Jun 30^th, 2016 at 6:00pm:

GordyL wrote on Jun 30th, 2016 at 5:37pm: Love how the Ottomans are are regarded as the pinnacle of modern Islam. Pitty they couldn't even get their heads around the printing press :) Really?   ::)

You always make me laugh, say funny things. ;)

Ottomans were first introduced to the printing press by the Sephardic Jews in Istanbul in 1494
The printing press was used only by the non-Muslims in the Ottoman Empire until the 18th century.

We are a talking about a 290 year delay since the invention of the printing press. The 290 year delay is unforgivable but that’s not the saddest part. The adoption of the printing press took another century. Şükrü Hanioğlu [1] explains that the number of books printed in the following century was miniscule.

“The late arrival of the printing house in the empire has often been cited as one of the major causes of the relative decline of Ottoman science and culture in comparison with Europe. It should be noted, however, that the major Ottoman printing houses published a combined total of only 142 books in more than a century of printing between 1727 and 1838. When taken in conjunction with the fact that only a miniscule number of copies of each book were printed, this statistic demonstrates that the introduction of the printing press did not transform Ottoman cultural life until the emergence of vibrant print media in the middle of the nineteenth century”

https://sureshemre.wordpress.com/2014/01/18/on-the-late-adoption-of-the-printing-press-in-the-ottoman-empire/

Brian Ross wrote on Jun 30^th, 2016 at 6:00pm:

GordyL wrote on Jun 30th, 2016 at 5:37pm: Love how the Ottomans are are regarded as the pinnacle of modern Islam. Pitty they couldn't even get their heads around the printing press :) Really?   ::)

Yes...REALLY!

Lord Herbert wrote on Jun 30^th, 2016 at 6:26pm:

It's unusual for gandalf to so openly suffer a nervous breakdown as he has here, and I hope all of you will join with me in wishing him a hasty recovery. Erdogan has famously been on a course to de-Westernise Turkey through increased Islamisation in all aspects of society.    Freedom of the Press Women’s advocacy groups have for years been warning the government about the sharp deterioration in gender equality and freedoms. But for the most part their voices have fallen on deaf ears. In the past 10 years the number of gender-related homicides has tripled in Turkey. Between 2003 and 2013 domestic violence has increased more than 1,400%. In the Global Gender Gap report Turkey ranks 125th among 142 countries. It still holds the lowest position among OECD countries. Women's lowly status The Turkish government not only has remained unresponsive to these complaints, but has carried out a deliberate policy of harassment and intimidation to force thousands of Greeks, Armenians, Assyrians and Jews to abandon their homes and businesses and relocate overseas. Oppression of minorities

Perhaps he is referring to a different Erdogan.


polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 30^th, 2016 at 2:07pm:

In fact Ozal's, and later Erdogan's AKPs vision of Islam's role as an enabler of economic and personal freedoms, has a strong scholarly basis, through such works as the 'hadith project'. But whats really funny here is for you to speak disparagingly of 'Turkish Islamism' in the context of liberty. What a joke - given the regard the Kemalists had and still have for Turkish people's liberties! Turks today enjoy far more freedom and democracy today under the 'Islamists' than they did under the anti-Islam secularists - and its precisely because of Islam.

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 30^th, 2016 at 4:33pm:

Quantum wrote on Jun 30th, 2016 at 2:54pm: Just to be clear, you're arguing that Erdogan has used Islam to bring about liberty and freedom, and Turkey today is progressing towards being a nation with even more freedoms? Generally yes. Who do you think it was who banned women wearing the veil from attending university? Who do you think lifted that ban? Now women are free to go to university and wear what they want - thanks to the 'Islamists'. Shall I go through the long list of religious practices that the Kemalists banned, which the Islamists lifted? The people who were persecuted, who are no longer? Has the Islamist's removal of Islamic persecution resulted in the persecution of non-Islamic behaviour? I don't think so - but if I'm wrong, please show me where this has been the case.

GordyL wrote on Jun 30^th, 2016 at 6:42pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Jun 30th, 2016 at 6:00pm: GordyL wrote on Jun 30th, 2016 at 5:37pm: Love how the Ottomans are are regarded as the pinnacle of modern Islam. Pitty they couldn't even get their heads around the printing press :) Really?   ::) You always make me laugh, say funny things. ;) Ottomans were first introduced to the printing press by the Sephardic Jews in Istanbul in 1494. The printing press was used only by the non-Muslims in the Ottoman Empire until the 18th century. We are a talking about a 290 year delay since the invention of the printing press. The 290 year delay is unforgivable but that’s not the saddest part. The adoption of the printing press took another century. Şükrü Hanioğlu [1] explains that the number of books printed in the following century was miniscule. “The late arrival of the printing house in the empire has often been cited as one of the major causes of the relative decline of Ottoman science and culture in comparison with Europe. It should be noted, however, that the major Ottoman printing houses published a combined total of only 142 books in more than a century of printing between 1727 and 1838. When taken in conjunction with the fact that only a miniscule number of copies of each book were printed, this statistic demonstrates that the introduction of the printing press did not transform Ottoman cultural life until the emergence of vibrant print media in the middle of the nineteenth century” https://sureshemre.wordpress.com/2014/01/18/on-the-late-adoption-of-the-printing-press-in-the-ottoman-empire/

Oh dear. Those Jews. Again lol  ;D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8sLNOhA7C2Q

I'm not saying Muslims don't like to read, I hear they do. They have this one particular book that they read over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over FKUCKING over again...

Indeed, the total number of books translated into Arabic during the 1,000 years since the age of Caliph Al-Ma’moun [a ninth-century Arab ruler who was a patron of cultural interaction between Arab, Persian, and Greek scholars—WPR] to this day is less than those translated in Spain in one year. The report noted that Arab rulers stay in office all their lives and create dynasties that inherit power, and the peoples are unable to institute change.

The Arab development report hangs out the Arabs’ dirty washing before the world and offers a wealth of information that mars the image of the Arabs in the world, but unfortunately the information is correct. Perhaps the most Arab regimes will do after reading it is to pressure Kofi Annan to move Rima Khalaf and ask her to pack her bags and return to her home in Amman.

http://worldpress.org/Mideast/663.cfm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ltsv40vCP7g

Quantum wrote on Jun 30^th, 2016 at 4:45pm:

I can't believe what I'm reading. The Arabs revolted against the Turks and the Armenia's were killed by the hundreds of thousands, but apparently everyone was treated equally in the Ottoman Empire. Today Erdogan is locking up journalist, persecuting gays, shutting down peaceful protests, but apparently he is helping bring more freedoms to the country. What a load of crap. Nothing but obvious Muslim propaganda.

Believe it Quantum.

First the Armenians: At the time of the Armenian genocide, the Turkish government was controlled by a fiercely militant secularist regime that had overthrown the Islamists that had introduced a constitution, parliament and moves towards democracy. Turkey was not a democratic and equal society during Islamist rule, but it was heading in the right direction. The secularists of course undid most of the Islamist reforms.

Second - the arab revolt. What a bizarre thing to bring up, since the Arab revolt was lead by reactionaries like the Wahabis (you know those lovely people who run Saudi Arabia today) - who were mostly "revolting" against what they saw as the horror of the Ottoman's move to liberalise Islam.

Third, while Erdogan has gone a bit over the top with his rhetoric, I don't see much evidence of actual moves to suppress democracy in practice - apart from a gaoling here and there. But again, you are more than welcome to provide the evidence that proves me wrong - I wonder why you don't? In any case, one has to put this into perspective and to understand the breathtaking hypocricy of the kemalist opposition - who would move to suppress religious freedoms - as well as many other freedoms, including yes, gays and journalists - in the blink of an eye - as they did for many decades last century.

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 30^th, 2016 at 7:02pm:

Third, while Erdogan has gone a bit over the top with his rhetoric, I don't see much evidence of actual moves to suppress democracy in practice - apart from a gaoling here and there.

;D ;D ;D

Now I KNOW you're pulling our leg!

For a while there you had me sucked in and taking you seriously.

GordyL wrote on Jun 30^th, 2016 at 6:51pm:

I'm not saying Muslims don't like to read, I hear they do. They have this one particular book that they read over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over FKUCKING over again...

Now that would drive ANYONE to murder and suicide  ::)

link

Erdogan is a war criminal.

Lisa Jones wrote on Jun 30^th, 2016 at 6:45pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Jun 30th, 2016 at 6:00pm: GordyL wrote on Jun 30th, 2016 at 5:37pm: Love how the Ottomans are are regarded as the pinnacle of modern Islam. Pitty they couldn't even get their heads around the printing press :) Really?   ::) Yes...REALLY!

Really?

Lord Herbert wrote on Jun 30^th, 2016 at 8:01pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 30th, 2016 at 7:02pm: Third, while Erdogan has gone a bit over the top with his rhetoric, I don't see much evidence of actual moves to suppress democracy in practice - apart from a gaoling here and there. ;D ;D ;D Now I KNOW you're pulling our leg! For a while there you had me sucked in and taking you seriously.

Yeah, apparently on 9/11 the Muslims also went a bit over the top, but overall isn't wasn't really "terrorism" or anything.

GordyL wrote on Jun 30^th, 2016 at 6:42pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Jun 30th, 2016 at 6:00pm: GordyL wrote on Jun 30th, 2016 at 5:37pm: Love how the Ottomans are are regarded as the pinnacle of modern Islam. Pitty they couldn't even get their heads around the printing press :) Really?   ::) You always make me laugh, say funny things. ;) Ottomans were first introduced to the printing press by the Sephardic Jews in Istanbul in 1494 The printing press was used only by the non-Muslims in the Ottoman Empire until the 18th century. We are a talking about a 290 year delay since the invention of the printing press. The 290 year delay is unforgivable but that’s not the saddest part. The adoption of the printing press took another century. Şükrü Hanioğlu [1] explains that the number of books printed in the following century was miniscule. “The late arrival of the printing house in the empire has often been cited as one of the major causes of the relative decline of Ottoman science and culture in comparison with Europe. It should be noted, however, that the major Ottoman printing houses published a combined total of only 142 books in more than a century of printing between 1727 and 1838. When taken in conjunction with the fact that only a miniscule number of copies of each book were printed, this statistic demonstrates that the introduction of the printing press did not transform Ottoman cultural life until the emergence of vibrant print media in the middle of the nineteenth century” https://sureshemre.wordpress.com/2014/01/18/on-the-late-adoption-of-the-printing-press-in-the-ottoman-empire/

Missing the point, Gordy?  How unusual.  You claimed they "couldn't get their heads around the printing press", yet they were using printing presses inside the Ottoman Empire well enough IMHO.   Perhaps the Ottomans care more about their scribes than the Europeans did?    ::) ::)

Brian Ross wrote on Jun 30^th, 2016 at 8:08pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on Jun 30th, 2016 at 6:45pm: Brian Ross wrote on Jun 30th, 2016 at 6:00pm: GordyL wrote on Jun 30th, 2016 at 5:37pm: Love how the Ottomans are are regarded as the pinnacle of modern Islam. Pitty they couldn't even get their heads around the printing press :) Really?   ::) Yes...REALLY! Really?

Bribri..  we know.  We're talking about how wide spread it's use way. In future please try to keep up.
Are you moozloum per chance?

freediver wrote on Jun 30^th, 2016 at 6:24pm:

Great insight there Brian. Some of the reasons given for the Ottoman's late taking to the printing press: * it would put the scribes out of work * they liked pretty caligraphy * people who were keen on books belong to a "certain class" just like today * the scribes could copy books rapidly * Muslims opened their first printing press in 1727 (1400s in Europe) * the Ottomans "knew about" printing presses for a long time before setting one up

Slow to change does not equate to an inability to change, FD.    ::)

Brian Ross wrote on Jun 30^th, 2016 at 8:11pm:

GordyL wrote on Jun 30th, 2016 at 6:42pm: Brian Ross wrote on Jun 30th, 2016 at 6:00pm: GordyL wrote on Jun 30th, 2016 at 5:37pm: Love how the Ottomans are are regarded as the pinnacle of modern Islam. Pitty they couldn't even get their heads around the printing press :) Really?   ::) You always make me laugh, say funny things. ;) Ottomans were first introduced to the printing press by the Sephardic Jews in Istanbul in 1494 The printing press was used only by the non-Muslims in the Ottoman Empire until the 18th century. We are a talking about a 290 year delay since the invention of the printing press. The 290 year delay is unforgivable but that’s not the saddest part. The adoption of the printing press took another century. Şükrü Hanioğlu [1] explains that the number of books printed in the following century was miniscule. “The late arrival of the printing house in the empire has often been cited as one of the major causes of the relative decline of Ottoman science and culture in comparison with Europe. It should be noted, however, that the major Ottoman printing houses published a combined total of only 142 books in more than a century of printing between 1727 and 1838. When taken in conjunction with the fact that only a miniscule number of copies of each book were printed, this statistic demonstrates that the introduction of the printing press did not transform Ottoman cultural life until the emergence of vibrant print media in the middle of the nineteenth century” https://sureshemre.wordpress.com/2014/01/18/on-the-late-adoption-of-the-printing-press-in-the-ottoman-empire/ Missing the point, Gordy?  How unusual.  You claimed they "couldn't get their heads around the printing press", yet they were using printing presses inside the Ottoman Empire well enough IMHO.   Perhaps the Ottomans care more about their scribes than the Europeans did?    ::) ::)

Shall we move on to science in the Islamic world in the last 250 years? ;D

Quantum wrote on Jun 30^th, 2016 at 8:09pm:

Lord Herbert wrote on Jun 30th, 2016 at 8:01pm: polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 30th, 2016 at 7:02pm: Third, while Erdogan has gone a bit over the top with his rhetoric, I don't see much evidence of actual moves to suppress democracy in practice - apart from a gaoling here and there. ;D ;D ;D Now I KNOW you're pulling our leg! For a while there you had me sucked in and taking you seriously. Yeah, apparently on 9/11 the Muslims also went a bit over the top, but overall it wasn't really "terrorism" or anything.

Precisely.

It was a media beat-up for the most part, pandering to the Islamophobes, the bigots, and the xenophobes.

..

Now all you lot have to do is demonstrate how the decades of Kemalist rule were so much better than the Islamists that both followed and preceded them - in terms of democracy and freedom.


freediver wrote on Jun 30^th, 2016 at 6:46pm:

Perhaps he is referring to a different Erdogan.

Says he who quoted an article that highlights the increased political activism of women:


Quote:

Turkey’s women are becoming more openly politicised than its men. Half of the protesters at the Gezi park demonstrations were women. In social media most of the critical campaigns are led by women.

How can that be - people openly protesting against Islamists in such a brutal anti-democratic Islamic theocracy?

I'd ask you how well you think the political activist scene thrived during the Kemalist rule - but I'm pretty sure I'd be wasting my time.

GordyL wrote on Jun 30^th, 2016 at 8:13pm:

Shall we move on to science in the Islamic world in the last 250 years? ;D

I'll take that then an admission that your original statement was wrong, shall I, Gordy?

Science in the Muslim world was once the world's leader but that was hundreds of years ago.  Today, it has been blighted by anti-intellectualism within the Islamist factions and lags well behind the West.   ::)

Brian Ross wrote on Jun 30^th, 2016 at 8:42pm:

GordyL wrote on Jun 30th, 2016 at 8:13pm: Shall we move on to science in the Islamic world in the last 250 years? ;D I'll take that then an admission that your original statement was wrong, shall I, Gordy? Science in the Muslim world was once the world's leader but that was hundreds of years ago.  Today, it has been blighted by anti-intellectualism within the Islamist factions and lags well behind the West.   ::)

Bribei. They used the printing press but it wasn't widely embrased

Lord Herbert wrote on Jun 30^th, 2016 at 8:05pm:

link Erdogan is a war criminal.

Ouch!

Brian Ross wrote on Jun 30^th, 2016 at 8:42pm:

Science in the Muslim world was once the world's leader but that was hundreds of years ago.

Al Ghazali declared Ibn Sina was atheist, Gandalf admits Muhammad al Razi was atheist in fact the vast majority of scientists were from the golden age of atheism. ::) ::)

Al Haytham wrote his book of Optics while under house arrest and he was feigning madness , that is the only one than can be called a muslim. ::) ::)

Been through this all before bwian perhaps you should search this forum before making a fool of yourself again.
::) ::)

Has everyone left your crappy forum again bwian, what sort of loser has a forum that nobody goes to, how sad you have to come here to feed your internet addiction. ::) ::) ::)

Brian Ross wrote on Jun 30^th, 2016 at 8:08pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on Jun 30th, 2016 at 6:45pm: Brian Ross wrote on Jun 30th, 2016 at 6:00pm: GordyL wrote on Jun 30th, 2016 at 5:37pm: Love how the Ottomans are are regarded as the pinnacle of modern Islam. Pitty they couldn't even get their heads around the printing press :) Really?   ::) Yes...REALLY! Really?

Wiki is not a credible source bwian.  ::) ::)

Was Constantinople renamed Istanbul when muslims conquered it?  ::)

Baronvonrort wrote on Jun 30^th, 2016 at 9:16pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Jun 30th, 2016 at 8:42pm: Science in the Muslim world was once the world's leader but that was hundreds of years ago.  Al Ghazali declared Ibn Sina was atheist, Gandalf admits Muhammad al Razi was atheist in fact the vast majority of scientists were from the golden age of atheism. ::) ::) Al Haytham wrote his book of Optics while under house arrest and he was feigning madness , that is the only one than can be called a muslim. ::) ::) Been through this all before bwian perhaps you should search this forum before making a fool of yourself again. ::) ::) Has everyone left your crappy forum again bwian, what sort of loser has a forum that nobody goes to, how sad you have to come here to feed your internet addiction. ::) ::) ::)

Lol what forum?

GordyL wrote on Jun 30^th, 2016 at 9:21pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on Jun 30th, 2016 at 9:16pm: Brian Ross wrote on Jun 30th, 2016 at 8:42pm: Science in the Muslim world was once the world's leader but that was hundreds of years ago.  Al Ghazali declared Ibn Sina was atheist, Gandalf admits Muhammad al Razi was atheist in fact the vast majority of scientists were from the golden age of atheism. ::) ::) Al Haytham wrote his book of Optics while under house arrest and he was feigning madness , that is the only one than can be called a muslim. ::) ::) Been through this all before bwian perhaps you should search this forum before making a fool of yourself again. ::) ::) Has everyone left your crappy forum again bwian, what sort of loser has a forum that nobody goes to, how sad you have to come here to feed your internet addiction. ::) ::) ::) Lol what forum?

Ask Brian about it, it's not worth pissing on then again maybe it is. ;D

Lisa Jones wrote on Jun 30^th, 2016 at 6:46pm:

GordyL wrote on Jun 30th, 2016 at 6:42pm: Brian Ross wrote on Jun 30th, 2016 at 6:00pm: GordyL wrote on Jun 30th, 2016 at 5:37pm: Love how the Ottomans are are regarded as the pinnacle of modern Islam. Pitty they couldn't even get their heads around the printing press :) Really?   ::) You always make me laugh, say funny things. ;) Ottomans were first introduced to the printing press by the Sephardic Jews in Istanbul in 1494. The printing press was used only by the non-Muslims in the Ottoman Empire until the 18th century. We are a talking about a 290 year delay since the invention of the printing press. The 290 year delay is unforgivable but that’s not the saddest part. The adoption of the printing press took another century. Şükrü Hanioğlu [1] explains that the number of books printed in the following century was miniscule. “The late arrival of the printing house in the empire has often been cited as one of the major causes of the relative decline of Ottoman science and culture in comparison with Europe. It should be noted, however, that the major Ottoman printing houses published a combined total of only 142 books in more than a century of printing between 1727 and 1838. When taken in conjunction with the fact that only a miniscule number of copies of each book were printed, this statistic demonstrates that the introduction of the printing press did not transform Ottoman cultural life until the emergence of vibrant print media in the middle of the nineteenth century” https://sureshemre.wordpress.com/2014/01/18/on-the-late-adoption-of-the-printing-press-in-the-ottoman-empire/ Oh dear. Those Jews. Again lol  ;D

Now now, no need to be touchy, Gordy.

Wasn’t it the Sephardic Canadians?

Melanias purse wrote on Jun 30^th, 2016 at 9:39pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on Jun 30th, 2016 at 6:46pm: GordyL wrote on Jun 30th, 2016 at 6:42pm: Brian Ross wrote on Jun 30th, 2016 at 6:00pm: GordyL wrote on Jun 30th, 2016 at 5:37pm: Love how the Ottomans are are regarded as the pinnacle of modern Islam. Pitty they couldn't even get their heads around the printing press :) Really?   ::) You always make me laugh, say funny things. ;) Ottomans were first introduced to the printing press by the Sephardic Jews in Istanbul in 1494. The printing press was used only by the non-Muslims in the Ottoman Empire until the 18th century. We are a talking about a 290 year delay since the invention of the printing press. The 290 year delay is unforgivable but that’s not the saddest part. The adoption of the printing press took another century. Şükrü Hanioğlu [1] explains that the number of books printed in the following century was miniscule. “The late arrival of the printing house in the empire has often been cited as one of the major causes of the relative decline of Ottoman science and culture in comparison with Europe. It should be noted, however, that the major Ottoman printing houses published a combined total of only 142 books in more than a century of printing between 1727 and 1838. When taken in conjunction with the fact that only a miniscule number of copies of each book were printed, this statistic demonstrates that the introduction of the printing press did not transform Ottoman cultural life until the emergence of vibrant print media in the middle of the nineteenth century” https://sureshemre.wordpress.com/2014/01/18/on-the-late-adoption-of-the-printing-press-in-the-ottoman-empire/ Oh dear. Those Jews. Again lol  ;D Now now, no need to be touchy, Gordy. Wasn’t it the Sephardic Canadians?

Why do you think I'm Jewish?  Are you hoping I am as you have a preference for cut penis?
You know your husband will stone you?

GordyL wrote on Jun 30^th, 2016 at 9:21pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on Jun 30th, 2016 at 9:16pm: Brian Ross wrote on Jun 30th, 2016 at 8:42pm: Science in the Muslim world was once the world's leader but that was hundreds of years ago.  Al Ghazali declared Ibn Sina was atheist, Gandalf admits Muhammad al Razi was atheist in fact the vast majority of scientists were from the golden age of atheism. ::) ::) Al Haytham wrote his book of Optics while under house arrest and he was feigning madness , that is the only one than can be called a muslim. ::) ::) Been through this all before bwian perhaps you should search this forum before making a fool of yourself again. ::) ::) Has everyone left your crappy forum again bwian, what sort of loser has a forum that nobody goes to, how sad you have to come here to feed your internet addiction. ::) ::) ::) Lol what forum?

Of course, you'd be welcome to join, Gordy.

http://www.debaterelate.com

Of course, you do need first to agree to the rules.  Do you think you could do that?  Baron decided he couldn't act like a civilised person and so never bothered to register.  Funny that.   ::)

Baronvonrort wrote on Jun 30^th, 2016 at 9:16pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Jun 30th, 2016 at 8:42pm: Science in the Muslim world was once the world's leader but that was hundreds of years ago.  Al Ghazali declared Ibn Sina was atheist, Gandalf admits Muhammad al Razi was atheist in fact the vast majority of scientists were from the golden age of atheism. ::) ::) Al Haytham wrote his book of Optics while under house arrest and he was feigning madness , that is the only one than can be called a muslim. ::) ::) Been through this all before bwian perhaps you should search this forum before making a fool of yourself again. ::) ::) Has everyone left your crappy forum again bwian, what sort of loser has a forum that nobody goes to, how sad you have to come here to feed your internet addiction. ::) ::) ::)

http://static1.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/12/122743/2332811-yawn_20smiley.jpg

Resorting to ad hominem again, Baron.  How unsurprising.   ::)

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 30^th, 2016 at 8:29pm:

Now all you lot have to do is demonstrate how the decades of Kemalist rule were so much better than the Islamists that both followed and preceded them - in terms of democracy and freedom.

I've worked with more Turks in my time than you've had hot dinners, and the one thing they made very apparent to me is that they thought Ataturk was a demigod.

You're on a hiding to nothing with these delusions of yours.

..

...

GordyL wrote on Jun 29^th, 2016 at 9:03am:

Reports of more than 50 dead. I blame Islam

Apologist.

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 30^th, 2016 at 7:02pm:

Quantum wrote on Jun 30th, 2016 at 4:45pm: I can't believe what I'm reading. The Arabs revolted against the Turks and the Armenia's were killed by the hundreds of thousands, but apparently everyone was treated equally in the Ottoman Empire. Today Erdogan is locking up journalist, persecuting gays, shutting down peaceful protests, but apparently he is helping bring more freedoms to the country. What a load of crap. Nothing but obvious Muslim propaganda. Believe it Quantum. First the Armenians: At the time of the Armenian genocide, the Turkish government was controlled by a fiercely militant secularist regime that had overthrown the Islamists that had introduced a constitution, parliament and moves towards democracy. Turkey was not a democratic and equal society during Islamist rule, but it was heading in the right direction. The secularists of course undid most of the Islamist reforms. Second - the arab revolt. What a bizarre thing to bring up, since the Arab revolt was lead by reactionaries like the Wahabis (you know those lovely people who run Saudi Arabia today) - who were mostly "revolting" against what they saw as the horror of the Ottoman's move to liberalise Islam. Third, while Erdogan has gone a bit over the top with his rhetoric, I don't see much evidence of actual moves to suppress democracy in practice - apart from a gaoling here and there. But again, you are more than welcome to provide the evidence that proves me wrong - I wonder why you don't? In any case, one has to put this into perspective and to understand the breathtaking hypocricy of the kemalist opposition - who would move to suppress religious freedoms - as well as many other freedoms, including yes, gays and journalists - in the blink of an eye - as they did for many decades last century.

What's a jailing or two between friends? Those journalists were probably writing articles about Erdogan's past as a war criminal. We can't have that, when Muslims are working so hard to paint him as a progressive reformer. And no doubt those Armenians broke some kind of treaty....


Brian Ross wrote on Jun 30^th, 2016 at 8:11pm:

GordyL wrote on Jun 30th, 2016 at 6:42pm: Brian Ross wrote on Jun 30th, 2016 at 6:00pm: GordyL wrote on Jun 30th, 2016 at 5:37pm: Love how the Ottomans are are regarded as the pinnacle of modern Islam. Pitty they couldn't even get their heads around the printing press :) Really?   ::) You always make me laugh, say funny things. ;) Ottomans were first introduced to the printing press by the Sephardic Jews in Istanbul in 1494 The printing press was used only by the non-Muslims in the Ottoman Empire until the 18th century. We are a talking about a 290 year delay since the invention of the printing press. The 290 year delay is unforgivable but that’s not the saddest part. The adoption of the printing press took another century. Şükrü Hanioğlu [1] explains that the number of books printed in the following century was miniscule. “The late arrival of the printing house in the empire has often been cited as one of the major causes of the relative decline of Ottoman science and culture in comparison with Europe. It should be noted, however, that the major Ottoman printing houses published a combined total of only 142 books in more than a century of printing between 1727 and 1838. When taken in conjunction with the fact that only a miniscule number of copies of each book were printed, this statistic demonstrates that the introduction of the printing press did not transform Ottoman cultural life until the emergence of vibrant print media in the middle of the nineteenth century” https://sureshemre.wordpress.com/2014/01/18/on-the-late-adoption-of-the-printing-press-in-the-ottoman-empire/ Missing the point, Gordy?  How unusual.  You claimed they "couldn't get their heads around the printing press", yet they were using printing presses inside the Ottoman Empire well enough IMHO.   Perhaps the Ottomans care more about their scribes than the Europeans did?    ::) ::)

True, it was reading books that weren't about slaughtering the infidel that they struggled with.


Brian Ross wrote on Jun 30^th, 2016 at 8:13pm:

freediver wrote on Jun 30th, 2016 at 6:24pm: Great insight there Brian. Some of the reasons given for the Ottoman's late taking to the printing press: * it would put the scribes out of work * they liked pretty caligraphy * people who were keen on books belong to a "certain class" just like today * the scribes could copy books rapidly * Muslims opened their first printing press in 1727 (1400s in Europe) * the Ottomans "knew about" printing presses for a long time before setting one up Slow to change does not equate to an inability to change, FD.    ::)

Ten generations had to die out before the change happened, but that's not unable to change, merely a little slow? We are not talking about flying to the moon here Brian. It's a mechanical printing press. They already had them in the city. They just had to copy it. And then find a use for it....

greggerypeccary wrote on Jul 1^st, 2016 at 6:20am:

GordyL wrote on Jun 29th, 2016 at 9:03am: Reports of more than 50 dead. I blame Islam Apologist.

Well even Turkey blamed Islam, once again, predictably you've sided with the terrorist.

GordyL wrote on Jul 1^st, 2016 at 9:12am:

greggerypeccary wrote on Jul 1st, 2016 at 6:20am: GordyL wrote on Jun 29th, 2016 at 9:03am: Reports of more than 50 dead. I blame Islam Apologist. Well even Turkey blamed Islam, once again, predictably you've sided with the terrorist.

Nope.

I blame the terrorists 100%.

Evil scum.

Why you continue to make excuses for these murderers really is a mystery to me.

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jun 30^th, 2016 at 5:57pm:

İf anyone is interested, the bombers were from Tajikistan. The police suspected one of the bombers before he could get too far. He was wearing a thick jacket in 30+ degree heat. Once the police suspected him he opened fire. Maybe that was the clown that blew himself up on the You Tube clip posted above.

Correction: They are from Russia, Uzbekistan and Kyrgyzstan.

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jul 1^st, 2016 at 10:25am:

Correction: They are from Russia, Uzbekistan and Kyrgyzstan.

Spetsnaz knows how to deal with them, but after Turkey shot down a Russian plane just recently it's possible that Russian Intelligence allowed these three to go through to Turkey while knowing they might be up to mischief.

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 30^th, 2016 at 8:29pm:

Now all you lot have to do is demonstrate how the decades of Kemalist rule were so much better than the Islamists that both followed and preceded them - in terms of democracy and freedom. freediver wrote on Jun 30th, 2016 at 6:46pm: Perhaps he is referring to a different Erdogan. Says he who quoted an article that highlights the increased political activism of women: Quote: Turkey’s women are becoming more openly politicised than its men. Half of the protesters at the Gezi park demonstrations were women. In social media most of the critical campaigns are led by women. How can that be - people openly protesting against Islamists in such a brutal anti-democratic Islamic theocracy? I'd ask you how well you think the political activist scene thrived during the Kemalist rule - but I'm pretty sure I'd be wasting my time.

Who do you think made up the other 50% Gandalf?

freediver wrote on Jul 1^st, 2016 at 8:19am:

Ten generations had to die out before the change happened, but that's not unable to change, merely a little slow? We are not talking about flying to the moon here Brian. It's a mechanical printing press. They already had them in the city. They just had to copy it. And then find a use for it....

They had a use for them, FD.  That is the point I am making.   The Christian Church(es) were only a bit quicker to adopt the output of the Presses in Europe.   The Ottomans appeared to have valued the quality of what they were reading as well as the quantity.   Afterall, they didn't see it as a way of binding their Empire together, which it could have been.   Instead they saw it's divisive effects.   ::)

Brian Ross wrote on Jul 1^st, 2016 at 1:39pm:

freediver wrote on Jul 1st, 2016 at 8:19am: Ten generations had to die out before the change happened, but that's not unable to change, merely a little slow? We are not talking about flying to the moon here Brian. It's a mechanical printing press. They already had them in the city. They just had to copy it. And then find a use for it.... They had a use for them, FD.  That is the point I am making.   The Christian Church(es) were only a bit quicker to adopt the output of the Presses in Europe.   The Ottomans appeared to have valued the quality of what they were reading as well as the quantity.   Afterall, they didn't see it as a way of binding their Empire together, which it could have been.   Instead they saw it's divisive effects.   ::)

Divisive effects? Helping literacy? I guess for Islam an educated population would cause issues.

Nice try with the "Christian Church(es) were only a bit quicker to adopt" the printing press. The Bible was being printed right from the start.

Quantum wrote on Jul 1^st, 2016 at 2:06pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Jul 1st, 2016 at 1:39pm: freediver wrote on Jul 1st, 2016 at 8:19am: Ten generations had to die out before the change happened, but that's not unable to change, merely a little slow? We are not talking about flying to the moon here Brian. It's a mechanical printing press. They already had them in the city. They just had to copy it. And then find a use for it.... They had a use for them, FD.  That is the point I am making.   The Christian Church(es) were only a bit quicker to adopt the output of the Presses in Europe.   The Ottomans appeared to have valued the quality of what they were reading as well as the quantity.   Afterall, they didn't see it as a way of binding their Empire together, which it could have been.   Instead they saw it's divisive effects.   ::) Divisive effects? Helping literacy? I guess for Islam an educated population would cause issues.

Perhaps it would.  Perhaps it wouldn't.  It would have helped spread the word of their religion more quickly and fully to the masses.   However, they decided otherwise and instead chose to only print non-religious books.   More fool them.    ::)

Lord Herbert wrote on Jul 1^st, 2016 at 10:40am:

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jul 1st, 2016 at 10:25am: Correction: They are from Russia, Uzbekistan and Kyrgyzstan. Spetsnaz knows how to deal with them, but after Turkey shot down a Russian plane just recently it's possible that Russian Intelligence allowed these three to go through to Turkey while knowing they might be up to mischief.

A very good point, Herbie.

freediver wrote on Jul 1^st, 2016 at 8:19am:

What's a jailing or two between friends? Those journalists were probably writing articles about Erdogan's past as a war criminal. We can't have that, when Muslims are working so hard to paint him as a progressive reformer. And no doubt those Armenians broke some kind of treaty....

You're not making any point here FD, it remains a fact that in Turkey those on the side of freedom and democracy have, for well over a century, been the Islamists, while those on the side of oppression have been the anti-religious Kemalists. I see a lot of scoffing and faux outrage to this statement, but no one has actually tried to refute it. Not you, not Quantum and not Herb.

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 1^st, 2016 at 3:03pm:

I see a lot of scoffing and faux outrage to this statement, but no one has actually tried to refute it. Not you, not Quantum and not Herb.

You are attempting to perform a very risky high-wire circus act without a net here when you ask us to believe that the reinstatement of Islam into Turkish society as a more strict and pervasive discipline than was the case under Ataturk, means that somehow this also delivers more personal freedom for the average citizen.

It's a contradiction in terms.

Religion promotes the antithesis of everything that constitutes democracy, freedom of the press, and personal freedoms.

I know.

I was frog-marched to church every Sunday morning for 4 years despite my objections.

...

..

Melanias purse wrote on Jul 1^st, 2016 at 2:34pm:

Lord Herbert wrote on Jul 1st, 2016 at 10:40am: Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jul 1st, 2016 at 10:25am: Correction: They are from Russia, Uzbekistan and Kyrgyzstan. Spetsnaz knows how to deal with them, but after Turkey shot down a Russian plane just recently it's possible that Russian Intelligence allowed these three to go through to Turkey while knowing they might be up to mischief. A very good point, Herbie.

It's a conspiracy theory that's a bit far fetched, but I thought I'd fly that kite anyway while there was a breeze blowing.

Herbie says this:


Lord Herbert wrote on Jul 1^st, 2016 at 3:27pm:

You are attempting to perform a very risky high-wire circus act without a net here

Before he says this:


Quote:

when you ask us to believe that the reinstatement of Islam into Turkish society as a more strict and pervasive discipline than was the case under Ataturk, means that somehow this also delivers more personal freedom for the average citizen.

I know I know, I don't understand it either.

I was going to reply to that, but then I thought why bother?

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 1^st, 2016 at 4:12pm:

I was going to reply to that, but then I thought why bother?

Exactly.

You've been on a hopeless mission with this, so cutting your losses while you're behind is a wise decision.

Lord Herbert wrote on Jul 1^st, 2016 at 3:31pm:

Melanias purse wrote on Jul 1st, 2016 at 2:34pm: Lord Herbert wrote on Jul 1st, 2016 at 10:40am: Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jul 1st, 2016 at 10:25am: Correction: They are from Russia, Uzbekistan and Kyrgyzstan. Spetsnaz knows how to deal with them, but after Turkey shot down a Russian plane just recently it's possible that Russian Intelligence allowed these three to go through to Turkey while knowing they might be up to mischief. A very good point, Herbie. It's a conspiracy theory that's a bit far fetched, but I thought I'd fly that kite anyway while there was a breeze blowing.

It doesn't sound too far-fetched to me. Putin's own security forces were caught red-handed placing bombs in Moscow apartment blocks during his first election as president. This is how Putin works.

Lord Herbert wrote on Jul 1^st, 2016 at 4:19pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 1st, 2016 at 4:12pm: I was going to reply to that, but then I thought why bother? Exactly. You've been on a hopeless mission with this, so cutting your losses while you're behind is a wise decision.

;D more a case of blood sugar levels being low late in the afternoon when you fast. At the moment I'm more interested in the kebab I'll be consuming in, oh about one hour.

Brian,??

Indeed, the total number of books translated into Arabic during the 1,000 years since the age of Caliph Al-Ma’moun [a ninth-century Arab ruler who was a patron of cultural interaction between Arab, Persian, and Greek scholars—WPR] to this day is less than those translated in Spain in one year. The report noted that Arab rulers stay in office all their lives and create dynasties that inherit power, and the peoples are unable to institute change.

The Arab development report hangs out the Arabs’ dirty washing before the world and offers a wealth of information that mars the image of the Arabs in the world, but unfortunately the information is correct. Perhaps the most Arab regimes will do after reading it is to pressure Kofi Annan to move Rima Khalaf and ask her to pack her bags and return to her home in Amman.

http://worldpress.org/Mideast/663.cfm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 1^st, 2016 at 4:25pm:

;D more a case of blood sugar levels being low late in the afternoon when you fast. At the moment I'm more interested in the kebab I'll be consuming in, oh about one hour.

The kebabs that I buy have WAY too many diced chunks of fat masquerading as solid meat pieces which I believe the Greeks and Lebbos who sell me these kid themselves that I'm not aware of this ethnic fraud. 

During Ramadan I made sure not to be seen eating in front of my Muslim workmates. It was just a courtesy that I paid them, in the same way that I didn't smoke in front of my brother when he was medically forced to quit smoking.

Lord Herbert wrote on Jul 1^st, 2016 at 6:21pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 1st, 2016 at 4:25pm: ;D more a case of blood sugar levels being low late in the afternoon when you fast. At the moment I'm more interested in the kebab I'll be consuming in, oh about one hour. The kebabs that I buy have WAY too many diced chunks of fat masquerading as solid meat pieces which I believe the Greeks and Lebbos who sell me these kid themselves that I'm not aware of this ethnic fraud.  During Ramadan I made sure not to be seen eating in front of my Muslim workmates. It was just a courtesy that I paid them, in the same way that I didn't smoke in front of my brother when he was medically forced to quit smoking.

Ah yes, you remember the kebabs back in the good old days - before the arrival of those stingy Lebs and Turks .

Those were the days, eh? What was your favourite flavour, Herb?

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 1^st, 2016 at 3:03pm:

freediver wrote on Jul 1st, 2016 at 8:19am: What's a jailing or two between friends? Those journalists were probably writing articles about Erdogan's past as a war criminal. We can't have that, when Muslims are working so hard to paint him as a progressive reformer. And no doubt those Armenians broke some kind of treaty.... You're not making any point here FD, it remains a fact that in Turkey those on the side of freedom and democracy have, for well over a century, been the Islamists, while those on the side of oppression have been the anti-religious Kemalists. I see a lot of scoffing and faux outrage to this statement, but no one has actually tried to refute it. Not you, not Quantum and not Herb.

Is it opposite day?

The Kemalists removed religion (Islam) from public life (from schools, public buildings, public institutions, Islamic clothing). It was a necessary oppression so Turkey could move into the modern world. 

Islam and liberal thought rarely coincide. Liberalism was born in Britain, not Mecca or Istanbul.

Melanias purse wrote on Jul 1^st, 2016 at 9:53pm:

Ah yes, you remember the kebabs back in the good old days - before the arrival of those stingy Lebs and Turks . Those were the days, eh? What was your favourite flavour, Herb?

Pork, beef, lamb, mutton, rabbit, chicken - we had it all on the plate long before swamping the West with Third World ethnics was a glint in our politicians' eyes.

Oh, but then these ethnics had the idea of sliding bits of meat onto a stick for Take Away. Who would have thought such genius was possible?

And guess what the sons, daughters, and grandchildren of most immigrant ethnics eat nowadays as their staple diet?

English/Western cuisine.

Have a look at the sons and daughters of Greek, Italian, Chinese, Filipino, Macedonian, and Indian migrants ... They tower over their parents because of meat-and-three-vegetables Western foods.

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jul 2^nd, 2016 at 11:16am:

The Kemalists removed religion (Islam) from public life (from schools, public buildings, public institutions, Islamic clothing). It was a necessary oppression so Turkey could move into the modern world.

He changed the writing to Western script too.

Brian Ross wrote on Jun 30^th, 2016 at 8:08pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on Jun 30th, 2016 at 6:45pm: Brian Ross wrote on Jun 30th, 2016 at 6:00pm: GordyL wrote on Jun 30th, 2016 at 5:37pm: Love how the Ottomans are are regarded as the pinnacle of modern Islam. Pitty they couldn't even get their heads around the printing press :) Really?   ::) Yes...REALLY! Really?

You are such a liar, Brian. Your own link says:

Due to religious qualms, Sultan Bayezid II and successors prohibited printing in Arabic script in the Ottoman empire from 1483 on penalty of death, but printing in other scripts was done by Jews as well as the Greek and Armenian communities (1515 Saloniki, 1554 Bursa (Adrianople), 1552 Belgrade, 1658 Smyrna). In 1727, Sultan Achmed III gave his permission for the establishment of the first legal print house for printing secular works in Arabic script (religious publications still remained forbidden),[71] but printing activities did not really take off until the 19th century.