ALEC - (American Legislative Exchange Council)

Lee wrote "


The corporations, both ALEC members, took a seat at the legislative drafting table beside elected officials and policy analysts by paying a fee between $3,000 and $10,000, according to documents obtained by Bloomberg News.

The opportunity for corporations to become co-authors of state laws legally through ALEC covers a wide range of issues from energy to taxes to agriculture.'

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2011-07-21/koch-exxon-mobil-among-corpora...'

Chimp-_logic wrote - '



Actually in the US its unconstitutional

But a Corporate tyranny that has displaced what little democracy there was in the USA can do as it pleases.

As recent as 2010, the US supreme court ruled by a marginal 5/4 vote that Corporations are in indeed persons and should be afforded the same same constitutional protections as ordinary US citizens.

US supreme court - judges appointed by the corporately owned Political system.'

Now in the news -

'The Energy & Environmental Legal Institute (E&E Legal) is extremely disappointed that the DC Circuit three judge panel refused to consider whether the EPA was improperly influenced by so called ‘green’ groups when the agency put forth the Clean Power Plan (CPP) that intended to “bankrupt” coal power plants and eliminate coal miners jobs throughout the country. We have painstakingly gathered evidence of improper ex parte contact between these outside groups and key EPA employees while the rule was being drafted, yet the Court has decided not to look at it in this case. The ex parte contact was extreme and included meetings at coffee shops across the street from EPA, extensive use of private e-mail servers by agency officials, and the ‘green groups’ clear involvement in the drafting and editing of the CPP.'

http://eelegal.org/2016/03/21/ee-legals-statement-re-d-c-circuit-decision-to-deny-brief-illustrating-extensive-collusion-between-epa-and-green-groups-in-writing-clean-power-plan/

I guess because it is government and "green groups", which are themselves big business, it makes it ok.

Good, hope ALEC gets disbanded soon.

Jovial Monk wrote on Mar 22^nd, 2016 at 2:13pm:

Good, hope ALEC gets disbanded soon.

but "Big Green" and the EPA are not part of ALEC. There is no formal instrument.

So if it should be illegal for members of ALEC to play a part in drafting legislation, should it be illegal for "green groups" to be involved in drafting the Clean Power Plan?

Don’t care. It would be good if ALEC can be disbanded.

The Greens are a real cancer to humanity.

They have been writing the laws on environment for quite a while now and have even taken to writing school curriculums like safe school programs teaching transgender children are normal.

I just cant understand how they have become so influential about all these topics.

The only thing I can put it down to is that the oligarchy are using the environmental movement to implement their hidden agenda of a world government, once they do it for the environment who's to say they will stop there.

Agenda 21 the green movement taking over the world through the environmental movement.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9GykzQWlXJs

Some are trying to expose them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bo5n4zeEetg


 

Quote:

“It is clear that current lifestyles and consumption patterns of the affluent middle-class … involving high meat intake, consumption of large amounts of frozen and convenience foods, ownership of motor vehicles, small electric appliances, home and work place air- conditioning, and suburban housing are not sustainable .…  A shift is necessary toward lifestyles less geared to environmental damaging consumption patterns.” Maurice Strong who spearheaded the 1991 Rio Earth Summit wrote in the U.N.’s Conference on Environmental Development (UNCED) report "Isn't the only hope for the planet that the industrialized civilizations collapse? Isn't it our responsiblity to bring that about?" - Maurice Strong, founder of the UN Environment Programme "If we don't change, our species will not survive... Frankly, we may get to the point where the only way of saving the world will be for industrial civilization to collapse." -Maurice Strong quoted in the September 1, 1997 edition of National Review magazine

old Maurice saviour of the world

http://i67.tinypic.com/nn41uf.jpg

lee wrote on Mar 22^nd, 2016 at 3:36pm:

Jovial Monk wrote on Mar 22nd, 2016 at 2:13pm: Good, hope ALEC gets disbanded soon. but "Big Green" and the EPA are not part of ALEC. There is no formal instrument. So if it should be illegal for members of ALEC to play a part in drafting legislation, should it be illegal for "green groups" to be involved in drafting the Clean Power Plan?

black is white: why not because a harvey norman groupie said so,... i mean politieoly asked yu ton enter inot eternl debate with a heartless german style never ending beginning !??????

i can ride a bmx and hide behind nuffink yayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy

go jules and shite... oi dad  aswell (p. we aint smoking the boring bluer crak;)

Ajax wrote on Mar 22^nd, 2016 at 5:03pm:

The Greens are a real cancer to humanity.

What about Monsanto, Dow Chemicals, TEPCO The Peabody Coal Company or EXXON?

Careful batman, your vitriolic bias is bleeding at the seams

Well done though on trying to prop up fascism in its purist form and congratulations on your high standards in hating children

Well done

well done indeed mate

Now apologise and self ban

Chimp_Logic wrote on Mar 22^nd, 2016 at 6:41pm:

What about Monsanto, Dow Chemicals, TEPCO The Peabody Coal Company or EXXON?

According to the AGU Exxon is now one of the good guys, :D :D :D :D :D

lee wrote on Mar 22^nd, 2016 at 6:53pm:

Chimp_Logic wrote on Mar 22nd, 2016 at 6:41pm: What about Monsanto, Dow Chemicals, TEPCO The Peabody Coal Company or EXXON? According to the AGU Exxon is now one of the good guys, :D :D :D :D :D

....but Sooky Sooky Batman didn't answer my very simple question lee - well done mate

What did I say ?

BatteriesNotIncluded wrote on Mar 23^rd, 2016 at 12:05pm:

What did I say ?

nothing of any consequence as normal. ;D ;D

Poor sooky sooky Batman needs lee to hold his hand when responding to questions relating to his dogma and religious hatred of children.

poor sooky sooky Batman

http://chickstermag.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/tumblr_lzfwp5Xh6b1r49n5z.gif

Poor Chimp_logic anally retentive. ;D ;D ;D ;D

The Feb 2016 temperatures show that AGW is real and is happening.

Anything else is just stubborn, ideological resistance with no validity to it.



http://i1263.photobucket.com/albums/ii636/maxine124/Political%20Animal/Super_Nova_disgusting_avatar_zpslaiqhxpf.jpg

Apparently you can use real photos of and accuse members of rooting their living (and 10 year dead) dogs here and not be punished. Much else in that foul avatar is offensive and abusive. But is OK, apparently.

Jovial Monk wrote on Mar 23^rd, 2016 at 6:21pm:

The Feb 2016 temperatures show that AGW is real and is happening. Anything else is just stubborn, ideological resistance with no validity to it.

No it shows that the effects of the El Nino are still lingering.

'A weakening El Niño continues. Tropical Pacific sea surface temperatures are still much warmer than average, but subsurface temperatures—El Niño's "heat source"—have declined sharply. Tropical rainfall across the Pacific remains disrupted: suppressed over Indonesia, enhanced farther east. Transition to ENSO-neutral is likely by early summer 2016, with close to a 50% chance for La Niña to develop by fall.'

https://www.climate.gov/enso

Note: NH summer

lee wrote on Mar 23^rd, 2016 at 6:32pm:

No it shows that the effects of the El Nino are still lingering. 'A weakening El Niño continues. Tropical Pacific sea surface temperatures are still much warmer than average, but subsurface temperatures—El Niño's "heat source"—have declined sharply. Tropical rainfall across the Pacific remains disrupted: suppressed over Indonesia, enhanced farther east. Transition to ENSO-neutral is likely by early summer 2016, with close to a 50% chance for La Niña to develop by fall.' https://www.climate.gov/enso Note: NH summer

You fail to understand the whole concept of El Nino when you talk about its "effects" in this way.

El Niño and La Niña are associated with complex weather patterns resulting from variations in ocean temperatures in the Equatorial Pacific. El Niño episodes have prolonged (over 8 months) negative SOI, meaning there is lower pressure over Tahiti and higher pressure in Darwin.

The SOI is a measure of the intensity or strength of the Walker Circulation.

It is calculated using

SOI      =  (Standardized Tahiti MSL pressure - Standardized Darwin MSL Pressure)/ Monthly standard deviation.

where Standardized Darwin = (Actual Darwin SLP - Mean Darwin SLP)/ Standard Deviation Darwin

and Standardized Tahiti = (Actual Tahiti SLP - Mean Tahiti SLP)/
Standard Deviation Tahiti

You could say that the prolonged SOI is caused by the Walker Circulation or you could just as easily say that the SOI is caused by the prevailing weather pattern.

So what causes what? Neither. Instead of talking about the effects of the prevailing SOI, it's safer to talk about certain weather patterns being associated with An El Nino episode.

Saying that temperatures are caused by an index is a bit like saying that the BHP share price is caused by the ASX200 dropping.  It's a real howler.   

You can predict weather patterns in coming months to a limited  extent from EL Nino phase, but it's like alchemy.

Thanks john. Is that Nino 3.4 or elsewhere? ;)

SOI is the Index. It is used for gauging the strength of El Nino/La Nina.

'Changes to the atmosphere and ocean circulation during El Niño events include:

    Sustained warmer-than-usual SSTs across the central and eastern tropical Pacific Ocean.'
http://www.bom.gov.au/climate/glossary/elnino.shtml

So one of the "changes" of an El Nino is warmer SST's

' Potential effects of El Niño on Australia include:

    Reduced rainfall
    Warmer temperatures
    Shift in temperature extremes'

http://www.bom.gov.au/climate/updates/articles/a008-el-nino-and-australia.shtml

So even BoM uses "effects", go complain to them.

Lee,

These are effects _associated_ with the El Nino episode as a whole, but the different phases have different associated weather phenomena. You were talking in terms of cause and effect. 

Your statement didn't make any sense.


Tell me, do you believe that climate models cause weather patterns too?

John_Taverner wrote on Mar 23^rd, 2016 at 7:56pm:

Your statement didn't make any sense.

So you don't believe in lingering El Nino effects? Poor You.


John_Taverner wrote on Mar 23^rd, 2016 at 7:56pm:

Tell me, do you believe that climate models cause weather patterns too?

I don't believe climate models on anything. You do? How sad.

'Lingering El Niño Could Mean Fewer Tornadoes'

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/lingering-el-nino-could-mean-fewer-tornadoes/

You can call it an "influence" or an "effect", I don't care which.

lee wrote on Mar 23^rd, 2016 at 8:18pm:

I don't believe climate models on anything. You do? How sad.

The irony  ;D

So the fact that El Nino is essentially a very basic climate model goes right over your head.

John_Taverner wrote on Mar 23^rd, 2016 at 8:29pm:

So the fact that El Nino is essentially a very basic climate model goes right over your head.

So that fact that it is based on empirical measurements completely escaped you? Oh Dear

lee wrote on Mar 23^rd, 2016 at 8:33pm:

John_Taverner wrote on Mar 23rd, 2016 at 8:29pm: So the fact that El Nino is essentially a very basic climate model goes right over your head. So that fact that it is based on empirical measurements completely escaped you? Oh Dear

Whatever you're talking, you're getting into it very deeply, and it smells.
The forecast "effects" of an El Nino phase are not based on empirical measurements at all. The forecasts are based on past seasonal data and a great deal of interpretation.


Quote:

DSITI uses two systems to calculate rainfall probabilities for Queensland: DSITI’s SOI-Phase system produces seasonal rainfall probabilities based on ‘phases’ of the Southern Oscillation Index. DSITI’s experimental SPOTA-1 (Seasonal Pacific Ocean Temperature Analysis - version 1) monitors Pacific Ocean SSTs from March to October each year to provide long-lead ‘outlooks’ for Queensland summer (November to March) rainfall. Outlooks based on both the SOI-Phase system and SPOTA-1 are freely available, although a password is required to access the experimental SPOTA-1 information

In a word, they use models.

https://www.longpaddock.qld.gov.au/seasonalclimateoutlook/index.html

John_Taverner wrote on Mar 23^rd, 2016 at 8:40pm:

The associated "effects" of El Nino are not based on empirical measurements at all.

Nope I wasn't referring o them.


John_Taverner wrote on Mar 23^rd, 2016 at 8:40pm:

DSITI’s experimental SPOTA-1 (Seasonal Pacific Ocean Temperature Analysis

Doesn't sound like a model. And who the hell was talking rainfall probabilities?

lee wrote on Mar 23^rd, 2016 at 8:44pm:

John_Taverner wrote on Mar 23rd, 2016 at 8:40pm: The associated "effects" of El Nino are not based on empirical measurements at all. Nope I wasn't referring o them. John_Taverner wrote on Mar 23rd, 2016 at 8:40pm: DSITI’s experimental SPOTA-1 (Seasonal Pacific Ocean Temperature Analysis Doesn't sound like a model. And who the hell was talking rainfall probabilities?

You were talking about effects as if the El Nino episode itself was the cause. 

Rainfall probability is the number one "effect" associated with an El Nino phase. Note that we're talking about a particular phase of the El Nino Episode, not the El Nino Episode itself. 

Quote:

SPOTA-1 is currently experimental and is being fully documented in a PhD study (Ken Day, University of Queensland). More detail about SPOTA-1, including papers and presentations is available.

John_Taverner wrote on Mar 23^rd, 2016 at 8:29pm:

lee wrote on Mar 23rd, 2016 at 8:18pm: I don't believe climate models on anything. You do? How sad. The irony  ;D So the fact that El Nino is essentially a very basic climate model goes right over your head.

I wonder if lee travels by air? Aircraft safety and design relies on computer MODELS and wind tunnel testing as well as finite element analysis which is a numerical regime that requires computer power to resolve.

Ultimately everything in science is based upon a MODEL - whether it be a theoretical or empirical model.

But poor lee, is selectively insulted by only ONE type of MODEL and its computer generated results - the Climate Models.

in lee's world it is forbidden to even glance at a climate model.

 

Incidentally, the phase of the SOI for January- February was "consistently negative". The BoM have a map showing the probability of exceeding median rainfall based on what the model tells us about that phase.
https://www.longpaddock.qld.gov.au/seasonalclimateoutlook/rainfallprobability/consistentlynegative/mar-may/Queensland.gif

In the current ENSO wrapup, the BoM have this statement:

Quote:

International climate models indicate that cooling in the tropical Pacific will continue, with a likely return to neutral levels by mid-2016. For winter and spring, climate models favour ENSO neutral slightly ahead of La Niña. However, accuracy of forecasts made at this time of year are lower than those at other times, and therefore some caution should be exercised.

It is very ironic that you place your faith in a model with such a low probability of being correct at this time of the year, yet you choose to ignore long term temperature modelling based on fundamentals.

BatteriesNotIncluded wrote on Mar 23^rd, 2016 at 12:05pm:

What did I say ?

You are making the thread noisy. Try to keep it down.

John_Taverner wrote on Mar 23^rd, 2016 at 8:50pm:

You were talking about effects as if the El Nino episode itself was the cause.

Really? I used "effects", I didn't use cause. Can it be both cause and effect?

lee wrote on Mar 23^rd, 2016 at 6:32pm:

No it shows that the effects of the El Nino are still lingering.

That's what you said. It clearly implies that the El Nino is the cause of those effects. (in your words)

Just let it go and don't dig yourself into a deeper hole.

.

come on lee - let it go mate

It's all over mate

It's done with - you're finished - John got you on that front

Well done for trying a shifty one though - well done on that front.

Now, just apologise and move on mate

Chimp_Logic wrote on Mar 24^th, 2016 at 4:05pm:

Well done for trying a shifty one though - well done on that front.

Can you explain that? Too cryptic for me.

What john says is implied may not be correct. You do understand that don't you?

The pool of warm water that is the El Nino affects SST's. SST's affect global temperature. A dissipating El Nino is the warm water mixing with the cold water. The warmth decreases but it is still warmer than normal. That's why there is a lagging effect.

lee wrote on Mar 24^th, 2016 at 5:48pm:

Chimp_Logic wrote on Mar 24th, 2016 at 4:05pm: Well done for trying a shifty one though - well done on that front. Can you explain that? Too cryptic for me. What john says is implied may not be correct. You do understand that don't you? The pool of warm water that is the El Nino affects SST's. SST's affect global temperature. A dissipating El Nino is the warm water mixing with the cold water. The warmth decreases but it is still warmer than normal. That's why there is a lagging effect.

even climate data is too cryptic for you lee

but strangely enough, child hatred, corporate fascism and corrupt tyrannical banking cartels sit comfortably well with you at the dinner table.

On this basis I will not explain anything to you.

All you need to do is apologise to John for distracting him from his busy daily schedule with your putridly deranged flat earth excrement.

Well done though lee - well done mate

lee wrote on Mar 24^th, 2016 at 5:48pm:

Chimp_Logic wrote on Mar 24th, 2016 at 4:05pm: Well done for trying a shifty one though - well done on that front. Can you explain that? Too cryptic for me. What john says is implied may not be correct. You do understand that don't you? The pool of warm water that is the El Nino affects SST's. SST's affect global temperature. A dissipating El Nino is the warm water mixing with the cold water. The warmth decreases but it is still warmer than normal. That's why there is a lagging effect.

The high SSTs affect SSTs? Ok. Very Kafkaesque. El Niño is just a pool of warm water. Interesting interpretation on your part. Maybe you should study meteorology. You could have hidden talents.

So which data is empirical, do you think? Why isn't it a model?

John_Taverner wrote on Mar 24^th, 2016 at 10:14pm:

The high SSTs affect SSTs? Ok. Very Kafkaesque.

Thank you for bringing my egregious error to light.

"The pool of warm water that is the El Nino affects SST's globally". Better?


John_Taverner wrote on Mar 24^th, 2016 at 10:14pm:

El Niño is just a pool of warm water. Interesting interpretation on your part.

Well I could have said that the Trade Winds push the surface water to the shallow Western Pacific where it is warmed by sunlight. When the Trade Winds periodically stop it allows the warm water to move to the Eastern Pacific. It is these warm waters that are the El Nino.

And of course we can rely on NOAA's satellites for the SST's.

http://www.noaanews.noaa.gov/stories2015/images/1680v1_20150305-ElNino_arrives_300.jpg

"El Niño Arrives in 2015. This image shows the average sea surface temperature for February 2015 as measured by NOAA satellites. The large area of red (warmer than average) can be seen extending through the equatorial Pacific. (Credit: NOAA)"