Post by John Smith on Mar 21st, 2016 at 8:02am
Swagman wrote on Mar 21st, 2016 at 7:43am:
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How many times have you been proven wrong with that statement???
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General Discussion >> Federal Politics >> Penalty rates Crucial Safety Net For Low Paid http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1458508621 Message started by Sir Crook on Mar 21st, 2016 at 7:17am |
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Title: Penalty rates Crucial Safety Net For Low Paid Post by Sir Crook on Mar 21st, 2016 at 7:17am
Penalty rates provide crucial safety net for low-paid workers, Labor argues
The Guardian Monday 21 March 2016 Penalty rates are a fundamental part of the safety net for low-paid workers and should not be scrapped, Labor argues in a submission to the Fair Work Commission. [smiley=thumbsup.gif] The commission is considering penalty rates in hospitality and retail jobs as part of its four-yearly review process. Labor put in a submission to the review calling for penalty rates to be retained, in line with its previous comments on the matter. “Australia’s economic outlook is uncertain, and likely to remain so in the near term,” its submission says. “The federal opposition submits that penalty rates continue to be a fundamental part of a strong safety net for Australian workers, enabling low income workers and workers in highly casualised industries to share in the nation’s economic prosperity.” It says penalty rates are necessary for many workers to maintain their standard of living. “Wages are also growing at their slowest rate since the 1990s, increasing by just 2.2% in 2015. The household saving ratio now stands at 7.6 – the lowest level since before the global financial crisis. It appears that Australians are feeling the impact of this slow growth and are dipping into their savings or putting less aside to cope with their increased costs of living,” the submission said. Twice as many workers in the retail and hospitality sectors are employed on a casual basis compared with the wider Australian workforce, making the industries particularly sensitive to changes in penalty rates, Labor’s submission says. “Hospitality workers are in the bottom 30% of Australian income earners. Along with hospitality and food services, retail has the largest proportion of low-paid workers in Australia,” the opposition leader, Bill Shorten, said. “Women make up a disproportionate share of workers in both the retail and hospitality sectors accounting for 55% of all those employed. “[Prime minister Malcolm] Turnbull and his government have made it clear they want to scrap the weekend penalty rates thousands of workers and families rely on to make ends meet. >:( “Labor understands that for these workers weekend penalty rates are not a luxury, they are what pays the bills and puts food on the table.” The Queensland Police Union of Employees is worried that changing penalty rates for one sector will lead to a flow-on impact for other workers, including emergency workers. “Any proposal to reduce penalty rates is nothing more than an unfair and unjust money grab that will disadvantage the employees most deserving of just recompense for the impact shift work has on their health and lifestyle,” the union’s submission to the Fair Work Commission says. The retail and catering industry association says penalty rates are stopping employers from hiring more workers. “Many cafe and restaurant businesses close or scale back staffing to counter higher wage bills on Sundays,” the chief executive of the association, Jon Hart, said. “Sunday pay rates of up to 75% extra per hour can make businesses unprofitable, with operators often unable to break-even or run at a loss.” His submission calls for Sunday rates to be scaled back to match Saturday rates, creating one weekend rate. The idea was supported by a Productivity Commission report into industrial relations, released in December. :( The government pledged to hold consultations into the changes proposed in the productivity commission report. At least one Liberal MP has made a submission to the Fair Work Commission calling for one single penalty rate across weekends and public holidays. Employer groups have until 1 April to make a submission on penalty rates to the commission. Penalty rates provide crucial safety net for low-paid workers, Labor argues |
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Title: Re: Penalty rates Crucial Safety Net For Low Paid Post by Swagman on Mar 21st, 2016 at 7:43am
(outside the market compulsory) Penalty rates keep unemployed people from getting gainful employment.
Labor are totally "out of touch". |
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Title: Re: Penalty rates Crucial Safety Net For Low Paid Post by Sir Crook on Mar 21st, 2016 at 7:52am
Penalty rate cut will hurt economy without helping business: Labor
March 21, 2016 The Conversation The federal opposition says that reducing penalty rates in the retail and hospitality sectors would widen the gender pay gap across the economy and hit consumption without bringing the claimed benefits to business and jobs. In a submission to the review of penalty rates by the Fair Work Commission (FWC), which sets them, Labor says penalty rates continue to be a fundamental part of a strong safety net for workers, enabling those on low incomes and people in highly casualised industries to share in the nation’s prosperity. They help to increase the economy’s competitiveness and to reduce inequality and the gender pay gap across the community, it says. “There is clear and well-founded evidence that reducing the take-home pay of low paid Australian workers will have a negative impact on domestic consumption. At the same time, it is highly unlikely that the benefits claimed by individual businesses will be seen across the aggregate economy.” :( The Productivity Commission (PC) last year recommended that Sunday penalty rates should be brought in line with those applying to Saturday. It said in its report: “Sunday penalty rates for hospitality, entertainment, retailing, restaurants and cafes are inconsistent across similar work, anachronistic in the context of changing consumer preferences, and frustrate the job aspirations of the unemployed and those who are only available for work on Sunday.” But the opposition says cutting penalty rates would harm the economy. :( “Penalty rates support demand in an economy in transition and are consistent with helping to deliver better productivity performance and increasing competitiveness of the national economy.” Labor says inequality is at a 75-year high, real national disposable income per capita has fallen by 3.2% since September 2013, and wages growth is the slowest since the 1990s. Changes to penalty rates would represent significant changes to the total earnings and income of workers in hospitality and retail, which have a higher prevalence of casualisation, and so have an impact on fairness and the performance of the economy, the submission says. While the exact number of workers that would be affected by the FWC decision cannot be estimated, Labor says the best estimate provided by the Parliamentary Library is potentially more than 390,500 in retail and more than 342,000 in accommodation and food services alone. It says that with women representing more than half the workforce in retail and hospitality any measures which reduce the take home pay of workers in these sectors “can only widen the gender pay gap across the Australian community”. :( Disputing the PC’s argument for cutting Sunday rates, the submission says it did not give proper weight to the impact on individual workers of reducing their take home pay, and failed to consider the regional and economy-wide implications of an associated fall in consumption. “Reducing the take-home wages of low-paid Australians runs completely counter to the objective of supporting demand in an environment where domestic consumption has taken on a more central role in underpinning growth.” The submission says proponents of cutting penalty rates use flawed assumptions in asserting that more businesses will open on weekends, or for longer hours, if their staff costs are lower, and that this will increase profits and create more jobs. :( There is a lack of evidence that a significant number of businesses in the retail and hospitality sectors are genuinely choosing to remain closed on weekends and public holidays, it says. To the extent there are businesses with capacity to open longer, there is no reason to believe the claimed benefits in terms of aggregate business activity or total employment would flow from reducing penalty rates. “The amount that consumers have to spend is a function of their incomes. Australians will not find themselves with more money to spend simply because there are more hours available in which to spend it. “Rather, businesses which do open additional hours will simply attract spending which would otherwise have been made at other times during the week, or from businesses which previously lacked direct competition. “While individual businesses in some locations may benefit from increased custom on weekends, the associated reduction in custom elsewhere means the aggregate impact on the Australian economy is likely to be minimal.” |
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Title: Re: Penalty rates Crucial Safety Net For Low Paid Post by cods on Mar 21st, 2016 at 7:54am
penalty rates are a fundamental reason for people living beyond their means.....
people rely on them like they rely on overtime....and nothing is guaranteed anymore... I heard somewhere where not to far into the future more than half the jobs we have today will no longer exist....they will just vanish....what then for penalty rates which people have become to dependent on.. >:( >:(....seems to me people dont mind upsetting their social life if money is being paid.. this is whats so hypocritical about the whole thing.. from what I can make out no one is forced to work weekends or after hours.... you are told this will be the case before taking a job....dont like the hours dont take the job leave it for someone who is happy to do it..... I am sick to death of the pandering we do.. its 2016 for gods sakes....we live in a 24/7 world... mums and people at home dont get penalty rates and they work 24/7 for nothing... how about them?????? |
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Title: Re: Penalty rates Crucial Safety Net For Low Paid Post by John Smith on Mar 21st, 2016 at 8:02am Swagman wrote on Mar 21st, 2016 at 7:43am:
How many times have you been proven wrong with that statement??? |
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Title: Re: Penalty rates Crucial Safety Net For Low Paid Post by crocodile on Mar 21st, 2016 at 8:25am John Smith wrote on Mar 21st, 2016 at 8:02am:
I don't recall it ever been proven on this board at all. Can you edify us all please. |
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Title: Re: Penalty rates Crucial Safety Net For Low Paid Post by John Smith on Mar 21st, 2016 at 9:04am crocodile wrote on Mar 21st, 2016 at 8:25am:
if you have a cafe and require two staff on Sunday. Penalty rates are scrapped, do you A. Hire another staff member or B. Pocket extra profit No one hires staff they don't need, and if they need them they already have them. Any gains that may be made in some industries are offset by losses in others due to the decline in disposable . There are many existing threads on the topic where others have gone into much more detail. |
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Title: Re: Penalty rates Crucial Safety Net For Low Paid Post by Swagman on Mar 21st, 2016 at 9:12am crocodile wrote on Mar 21st, 2016 at 8:25am:
For very similar reasons (only in reverse) as to why a company tax decrease for example is considered to be beneficial to employment growth for one. Anything that adversely effects profitability has to realistically have a detrimental effect on employment. Increase the price of product (labour for example) without a corresponding increase in revenue, and demand for product (labour) will decline (AKA unemployment goes up). There is also the elephant in the room. The thousands of small businesses that don't even operate on weekends and public holidays because of the penalty rate effect, and those that do open but employ family members off the books instead of unemployed locals to save up to 100% of labour costs for that day. |
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Title: Re: Penalty rates Crucial Safety Net For Low Paid Post by Swagman on Mar 21st, 2016 at 9:14am John Smith wrote on Mar 21st, 2016 at 8:02am:
NIL |
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Title: Re: Penalty rates Crucial Safety Net For Low Paid Post by ian on Mar 21st, 2016 at 9:16am Swagman wrote on Mar 21st, 2016 at 9:12am:
penalty rates arent an increase in costs. They are part of the existing cost structure. |
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Title: Re: Penalty rates Crucial Safety Net For Low Paid Post by greggerypeccary on Mar 21st, 2016 at 9:19am John Smith wrote on Mar 21st, 2016 at 8:02am:
I've lost count. Penalty rates do not cause unemployment. |
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Title: Re: Penalty rates Crucial Safety Net For Low Paid Post by Swagman on Mar 21st, 2016 at 9:21am ian wrote on Mar 21st, 2016 at 9:16am:
Why label pay rates "time and a half" or "double time" when referring to penalty rates then? 1 X 1.5 = 1.5 Has 1 increased or not? :-? Of course it bloody well has.... ::) |
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Title: Re: Penalty rates Crucial Safety Net For Low Paid Post by Swagman on Mar 21st, 2016 at 9:22am greggerypeccary wrote on Mar 21st, 2016 at 9:19am:
Only in Peckaland.... |
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Title: Re: Penalty rates Crucial Safety Net For Low Paid Post by crocodile on Mar 21st, 2016 at 9:25am greggerypeccary wrote on Mar 21st, 2016 at 9:19am:
I'll remind you. It was zero. Last time we had this exchange you ducked for cover when challenged. So let's see it. |
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Title: Re: Penalty rates Crucial Safety Net For Low Paid Post by greggerypeccary on Mar 21st, 2016 at 9:28am John Smith wrote on Mar 21st, 2016 at 9:04am:
Sawagman seems to "think" (a bit of a stretch, I know) that if penalty rates are scrapped, more customers will start going to the cafe and thus they'll need more staff. Where he gets this nonsense from, I'm not sure. If, as you say, a cafe hires two staff members on Sundays and penalty rates are removed, this is what will happen: - cafe opens the same as it always has; - the same two staff members work; - the same amount of customers come; - the same amount of coffee and cake is sold; - the same amount of work is done as on previous Sundays; - the customers pay the same as they have on previous Sundays; - the two staff members get paid less than they have on previous Sundays; - the cafe owner pockets more profit (which has been taken from his staff); - the two staff members have less disposable income; - the unemployment figures remain the same (or go up, due to there being less disposable incoming in the pockets of low paid workers across the country). A primary school student would be able to understand this. Why Swagman can't, is a real mystery. |
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Title: Re: Penalty rates Crucial Safety Net For Low Paid Post by crocodile on Mar 21st, 2016 at 9:38am John Smith wrote on Mar 21st, 2016 at 9:04am:
The reduction in input costs also allows scope for retail price reduction due to competition and increased sales volumes. There is also the point that reinvestments of profits leads to growth in marginal productivity of labour. |
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Title: Re: Penalty rates Crucial Safety Net For Low Paid Post by Swagman on Mar 21st, 2016 at 9:42am greggerypeccary wrote on Mar 21st, 2016 at 9:28am:
Assume double time. Your 2 staff members get paid double for Sunday. Two people get paid for the cost of 4 people. 2 potential jobs are foregone. 2 people that are otherwise unemployed 'could' be employed. The penalty rate could be keeping them out of a job. |
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Title: Re: Penalty rates Crucial Safety Net For Low Paid Post by greggerypeccary on Mar 21st, 2016 at 9:42am John Smith wrote on Mar 21st, 2016 at 9:04am:
100% correct. Easy to understand. |
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Title: Re: Penalty rates Crucial Safety Net For Low Paid Post by greggerypeccary on Mar 21st, 2016 at 9:44am Swagman wrote on Mar 21st, 2016 at 9:42am:
The cafe owner is not going to hire more staff to do the same amount of work. Why is so difficult for you to understand this simple fact? Seriously. |
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Title: Re: Penalty rates Crucial Safety Net For Low Paid Post by Swagman on Mar 21st, 2016 at 9:48am greggerypeccary wrote on Mar 21st, 2016 at 9:44am:
....the 'owner' can reduce his price of product to pick up more business because he is suddenly more competitive. If the business gets more trade, then it will need more staff :-? More business, more revenue, more profit, more staff required. Why is so difficult for you to understand this simple fact? Seriously. |
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Title: Re: Penalty rates Crucial Safety Net For Low Paid Post by greggerypeccary on Mar 21st, 2016 at 9:49am Swagman wrote on Mar 21st, 2016 at 9:48am:
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Title: Re: Penalty rates Crucial Safety Net For Low Paid Post by Leftwinger on Mar 21st, 2016 at 9:55am greggerypeccary wrote on Mar 21st, 2016 at 9:49am:
No chit ;D |
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Title: Re: Penalty rates Crucial Safety Net For Low Paid Post by John Smith on Mar 21st, 2016 at 10:02am crocodile wrote on Mar 21st, 2016 at 9:38am:
allows scope? perhaps, but my money is on human greed dictating. A coffee shop owner who has been selling his coffee 7 days a week for $5 a cup isn't suddenly going to drop his price to $4 because he doesn't have to pay penalty rates. there was an example someone once put up about something similar having happened in WA .. I'm not familiar with the case so I won't go into it, but it showed it had ZERO effect on employment. If someone who is familiar with the case I'm referring to can assist it would be greatly appreciated. crocodile wrote on Mar 21st, 2016 at 9:38am:
it'll end up in pockets of those who don't rely on it. The money will go into savings, or to buying luxury items. The coffee shop, restaurant, take away will in fact LOSE customers because there is less disposable income. |
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Title: Re: Penalty rates Crucial Safety Net For Low Paid Post by Swagman on Mar 21st, 2016 at 10:03am greggerypeccary wrote on Mar 21st, 2016 at 9:49am:
Is that the best you've got Pecker? You don't think that business ever reduces it's price to cater for demand fluctuations? Has the word 'competition' been removed from your socialism dictionary? :D |
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Title: Re: Penalty rates Crucial Safety Net For Low Paid Post by greggerypeccary on Mar 21st, 2016 at 10:17am Its time wrote on Mar 21st, 2016 at 9:55am:
Swagman should be a comedian. If penalty rates are reduced, he "thinks" (once again, I'm being very generous) that business owners are going to reduce their prices, and then take on extra staff to handle the 100% increase in sales (Lol). He believes employers will do that, rather than pocket the extra money and just let the business continue to operate successfully, as it always has done. Someone please book Swagman for the next comedy festival. |
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Title: Re: Penalty rates Crucial Safety Net For Low Paid Post by ian on Mar 21st, 2016 at 10:35am Swagman wrote on Mar 21st, 2016 at 9:21am:
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Title: Re: Penalty rates Crucial Safety Net For Low Paid Post by greggerypeccary on Mar 21st, 2016 at 10:54am ian wrote on Mar 21st, 2016 at 10:35am:
Correct, from start to end. |
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Title: Re: Penalty rates Crucial Safety Net For Low Paid Post by Swagman on Mar 21st, 2016 at 10:55am ian wrote on Mar 21st, 2016 at 10:35am:
The market should determine whether it's stupid or not. |
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Title: Re: Penalty rates Crucial Safety Net For Low Paid Post by John Smith on Mar 21st, 2016 at 10:56am Swagman wrote on Mar 21st, 2016 at 10:55am:
employment doesn't work on a free market basis, the last time it did that we had 10 yr old working 12 hr shifts in down mine shafts. |
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Title: Re: Penalty rates Crucial Safety Net For Low Paid Post by ian on Mar 21st, 2016 at 11:09am Swagman wrote on Mar 21st, 2016 at 10:55am:
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Title: Re: Penalty rates Crucial Safety Net For Low Paid Post by ian on Mar 21st, 2016 at 11:12am
Also, the next time you need the services of an emergency response worker, Ambo, copper, etc. or an after hours visit to EMD, just tell the workers involved how you dont think they should be getting penalty rates.
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Title: Re: Penalty rates Crucial Safety Net For Low Paid Post by Swagman on Mar 21st, 2016 at 1:44pm ian wrote on Mar 21st, 2016 at 11:12am:
Public servants are an even better example example of how penalty rates keep people unemployed. Are there unemployed emergency response workers, Ambos, coppers etc? :-? I'm sure there are plenty. Why do tax payers pay these people up to DOUBLE for the same work whilst others who want work are on the dole queue? ::) If on the other hand there is a lack of supply of emergency personnel outside 'normal' hours then the market pushes up the price. |
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Title: Re: Penalty rates Crucial Safety Net For Low Paid Post by greggerypeccary on Mar 21st, 2016 at 1:50pm Swagman wrote on Mar 21st, 2016 at 1:44pm:
"Penalty rates have long protected the Australian weekend. "For over a hundred years they have incentivized irregular hours of work and compensated working families for the time apart." The McKell Institute |
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Title: Re: Penalty rates Crucial Safety Net For Low Paid Post by John Smith on Mar 21st, 2016 at 1:51pm Swagman wrote on Mar 21st, 2016 at 1:44pm:
are you? you realise your fantasy isn't considered fact, right? Police already have trouble recruiting WITH penalty rates. What do you think would happen if you removed them? |
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Title: Re: Penalty rates Crucial Safety Net For Low Paid Post by ian on Mar 21st, 2016 at 2:51pm Swagman wrote on Mar 21st, 2016 at 1:44pm:
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Title: Re: Penalty rates Crucial Safety Net For Low Paid Post by Sir Crook on Mar 21st, 2016 at 3:06pm
As I have said before, and will say again. Just because someone is unemployed it does not mean they want to work weekends, without the penalty rates. Also just think what it would be like, if you have a work place, where people want to work weekends with the penalty rates. Then you get some unemployed person coming along, and saying I will work weekends without the penalty rates. Can you see the problem this would cause?. :(
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Title: Re: Penalty rates Crucial Safety Net For Low Paid Post by Karnal on Mar 21st, 2016 at 3:36pm wrote on Mar 21st, 2016 at 3:06pm:
I work Saturdays and get penalty rates. I can't see any harm in the extra rate on Sunday being scrapped. There's no difference between Saturday and Sunday. Sunday is not a church day anymore. The current proposal is to bring weekend rates in line. It makes sense to me. |
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Title: Re: Penalty rates Crucial Safety Net For Low Paid Post by Sir Crook on Mar 21st, 2016 at 3:40pm
For some people Sunday is still a church day. :-?
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Title: Re: Penalty rates Crucial Safety Net For Low Paid Post by Swagman on Mar 21st, 2016 at 3:41pm John Smith wrote on Mar 21st, 2016 at 1:51pm:
As the rest of my post that you ignored stated.... Swagman wrote on Mar 21st, 2016 at 1:44pm:
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Title: Re: Penalty rates Crucial Safety Net For Low Paid Post by greggerypeccary on Mar 21st, 2016 at 3:43pm ian wrote on Mar 21st, 2016 at 2:51pm:
;D |
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Title: Re: Penalty rates Crucial Safety Net For Low Paid Post by John Smith on Mar 21st, 2016 at 3:46pm Swagman wrote on Mar 21st, 2016 at 3:41pm:
rubbish ... you'll end up with a far inferior service before you end up with people voluntarily paying more. |
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Title: Re: Penalty rates Crucial Safety Net For Low Paid Post by John Smith on Mar 21st, 2016 at 3:47pm Melanias purse wrote on Mar 21st, 2016 at 3:36pm:
Dropped mum off at church yesterday ... it was overflowing with fools. Of course Sunday is still a church day. |
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Title: Re: Penalty rates Crucial Safety Net For Low Paid Post by Swagman on Mar 21st, 2016 at 3:47pm wrote on Mar 21st, 2016 at 3:40pm:
....make sure you double your donation you put on the collection plate on Sundays Crook.....can't have the minister getting short changed his penalty rates |
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Title: Re: Penalty rates Crucial Safety Net For Low Paid Post by Swagman on Mar 21st, 2016 at 3:49pm John Smith wrote on Mar 21st, 2016 at 3:47pm:
....did you charge her double cab fare? |
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Title: Re: Penalty rates Crucial Safety Net For Low Paid Post by John Smith on Mar 21st, 2016 at 4:03pm Swagman wrote on Mar 21st, 2016 at 3:49pm:
you seem to not understand what 'work' is. If I had to work Sunday, I would have been unable to drop mum off and it would have cost her about $25 taxi fare. My hourly rate for working, plus the taxi fare is about equal to double time. That's why people should be paid double time. :D :D |
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Title: Re: Penalty rates Crucial Safety Net For Low Paid Post by Karnal on Mar 21st, 2016 at 5:30pm John Smith wrote on Mar 21st, 2016 at 3:47pm:
Yes, JS, but they changed the rules. You don’t go to hell anymore if you miss church. |
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Title: Re: Penalty rates Crucial Safety Net For Low Paid Post by John Smith on Mar 21st, 2016 at 5:31pm Melanias purse wrote on Mar 21st, 2016 at 5:30pm:
someone forgot to tell mum :D :D |
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Title: Re: Penalty rates Crucial Safety Net For Low Paid Post by longweekend58 on Mar 21st, 2016 at 5:33pm wrote on Mar 21st, 2016 at 7:17am:
Bad use of terminology by labor. it is not a safety net. it is an increase in wage. that is not a safety net which would be a minimum weekly wage for example. it is just an increase in wage. typical of labor to not know the difference. |
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Title: Re: Penalty rates Crucial Safety Net For Low Paid Post by John Smith on Mar 21st, 2016 at 5:35pm longweekend58 wrote on Mar 21st, 2016 at 5:33pm:
that's been around for 100 years. if you think it's an increase you should try waking up before going to work |
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Title: Re: Penalty rates Crucial Safety Net For Low Paid Post by Karnal on Mar 21st, 2016 at 5:42pm John Smith wrote on Mar 21st, 2016 at 5:35pm:
Longy doesn’t work, JS. He has a multi-million dollar business and writes the occasional children’s book. He is so successful, in fact, that he is able to keep a mistress up in a house in Sydney with her own Camry. Hubby drives a Merc. |
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Title: Re: Penalty rates Crucial Safety Net For Low Paid Post by greggerypeccary on Mar 21st, 2016 at 6:00pm longweekend58 wrote on Mar 21st, 2016 at 5:33pm:
Incorrect. Nobody is asking for an increase. |
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Title: Re: Penalty rates Crucial Safety Net For Low Paid Post by John Smith on Mar 21st, 2016 at 6:06pm Melanias purse wrote on Mar 21st, 2016 at 5:42pm:
posting on the net for the liberal party certainly pays well then. :D :D |
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Title: Re: Penalty rates Crucial Safety Net For Low Paid Post by stunspore on Mar 21st, 2016 at 7:30pm
More nonsense from those who want penalty rates to go.
More crap about market - when the market is easily manipulated to benefit the more powerful - as can be seen by duopoly coles and etc. By the time regulators come and go, it's too late for those small players/customers/workers. |
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Title: Re: Penalty rates Crucial Safety Net For Low Paid Post by ian on Mar 22nd, 2016 at 12:41am longweekend58 wrote on Mar 21st, 2016 at 5:33pm:
you are babbling again. You forgot to take your little yellow pills. |
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Title: Re: Penalty rates Crucial Safety Net For Low Paid Post by longweekend58 on Mar 22nd, 2016 at 8:24am greggerypeccary wrote on Mar 21st, 2016 at 6:00pm:
it is a time-based increase on a standard wage, pedantic Public Servant. |
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Title: Re: Penalty rates Crucial Safety Net For Low Paid Post by greggerypeccary on Mar 22nd, 2016 at 10:18am longweekend58 wrote on Mar 22nd, 2016 at 8:24am:
Nobody is asking for an increase. Penalty rates have been around for years. Workers aren't asking for more money - employers are offering less. Why do you support taking money away from some of the lowest paid workers in the country? Answer that question, if you have the balls. |
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Title: Re: Penalty rates Crucial Safety Net For Low Paid Post by longweekend58 on Mar 22nd, 2016 at 12:15pm greggerypeccary wrote on Mar 22nd, 2016 at 10:18am:
you seem to be a pedant but only on your own arguments. for all others you are OBTUSE. penalty rates are - and always be - a time-based increase to a standard wage. |
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Title: Re: Penalty rates Crucial Safety Net For Low Paid Post by Swagman on Mar 22nd, 2016 at 3:18pm greggerypeccary wrote on Mar 22nd, 2016 at 10:18am:
If you offer someone a new job at the 'normal' rate of pay, without penalty rates then its not taking money away from them. If however penalty rates prevent a business from opening and employing people at normal rates it's taking money away from an unemployed people who may want that work. |
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Title: Re: Penalty rates Crucial Safety Net For Low Paid Post by skippy. on Mar 22nd, 2016 at 3:54pm Swagman wrote on Mar 22nd, 2016 at 3:18pm:
Employers know the rules when they buy/start a business if they are not prepared to pay the correct wages for penalty rates they should not go in to business in the first place. When the country comes to a stand still because cops, fireman and hospitals are closed due to no staff prepared to work and anarchy rules it will be the likes of you to blame. I hope you and those like you are the most affected. |
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Title: Re: Penalty rates Crucial Safety Net For Low Paid Post by stunspore on Mar 22nd, 2016 at 4:11pm
Businesses work when there are are paying customers. You can reduce costs to zero and it will be pointless when your boss cuts your pay. Might give you more time to make up for it, but then you have less time to consume so businesses that rely "per hour" services lose out then.
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Title: Re: Penalty rates Crucial Safety Net For Low Paid Post by greggerypeccary on Mar 22nd, 2016 at 4:35pm longweekend58 wrote on Mar 22nd, 2016 at 12:15pm:
Nobody is asking for an increase. Penalty rates have been around for years. Workers aren't asking for more money - employers are offering less. |
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Title: Re: Penalty rates Crucial Safety Net For Low Paid Post by longweekend58 on Mar 22nd, 2016 at 7:12pm greggerypeccary wrote on Mar 22nd, 2016 at 4:35pm:
I am not even entering the debate on right/wrong. I am simply correcting your terminology in that penalty rates are an INCREASE on a base wage. This is of course completely true and rather obvious but being unable to separate ideology from statments of fact, it confuses you. BTW, an 'increase' is an increase regardless of amount. |
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Title: Re: Penalty rates Crucial Safety Net For Low Paid Post by greggerypeccary on Mar 22nd, 2016 at 7:13pm longweekend58 wrote on Mar 22nd, 2016 at 7:12pm:
Nobody is asking for an increase. Penalty rates have been around for years. Workers aren't asking for more money - employers are offering less. |
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Title: Re: Penalty rates Crucial Safety Net For Low Paid Post by Dnarever on Mar 22nd, 2016 at 7:40pm Swagman wrote on Mar 21st, 2016 at 7:43am:
Penalty rates have been part of the market for many decades and they have no impact on employment numbers. |
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Title: Re: Penalty rates Crucial Safety Net For Low Paid Post by greggerypeccary on Mar 22nd, 2016 at 7:44pm Dnarever wrote on Mar 22nd, 2016 at 7:40pm:
100% correct. |
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Title: Re: Penalty rates Crucial Safety Net For Low Paid Post by Dnarever on Mar 22nd, 2016 at 7:52pm greggerypeccary wrote on Mar 22nd, 2016 at 7:13pm:
Absolutely correct. The push is aimed at reducing the take home pay of many low paid workers. Penalty rates are well justified and probably the most reasonable way to adjust the market rate or value of premium hours. Simply put 10 pm on Wednesday is worth more than 1pm the same day and 3pm on Sunday is worth more than 3pm on Tuesday. |
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Title: Re: Penalty rates Crucial Safety Net For Low Paid Post by Dnarever on Mar 22nd, 2016 at 7:56pm longweekend58 wrote on Mar 22nd, 2016 at 7:12pm:
No it isn't an increase on the base wage - the base wage remains the same and will be clearly marked that way on the pay slip. Had the penalty rate altered the base rate it would then apply to all hours worked. |
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Title: Re: Penalty rates Crucial Safety Net For Low Paid Post by Dnarever on Mar 22nd, 2016 at 8:10pm longweekend58 wrote on Mar 22nd, 2016 at 8:24am:
You seem to be just as pedantic and questionable in opinion. While I understand the argument you make it is no better than to call it an optional payment to employees. Penalty rates can be removed by any employer at any time, all they have to do is close the doors at going home time and they will pay no penalties. it is an optional time-based payment on top of a standard wage. Not that a description of it makes any difference to its usefulness or validity. |
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Title: Re: Penalty rates Crucial Safety Net For Low Paid Post by stunspore on Mar 22nd, 2016 at 8:21pm
I wait for libs to take this to the election campaign.
and if they win government without putting this as an election promise and does go on ahead, they will not last the next one. It will be careful planning by the next lib government to make it count and rort the taxpayer as much as possible before they get kicked out. |
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Title: Re: Penalty rates Crucial Safety Net For Low Paid Post by longweekend58 on Mar 23rd, 2016 at 7:54am greggerypeccary wrote on Mar 22nd, 2016 at 7:13pm:
a 'penalty rate' is BY DEFINITION an increase over a base wage. You can rabbit on pedanticaly when it suits you, but when presented with the same, you turn to water. |
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Title: Re: Penalty rates Crucial Safety Net For Low Paid Post by Leftwinger on Mar 23rd, 2016 at 9:10am
Libs simply cannot be trusted with your wages and working conditions
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Title: Re: Penalty rates Crucial Safety Net For Low Paid Post by greggerypeccary on Mar 23rd, 2016 at 9:37am longweekend58 wrote on Mar 23rd, 2016 at 7:54am:
Nobody is asking for an increase. Penalty rates have been around for years. Workers aren't asking for more money - employers are offering less. |
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Title: Re: Penalty rates Crucial Safety Net For Low Paid Post by Swagman on Mar 23rd, 2016 at 1:23pm Dnarever wrote on Mar 22nd, 2016 at 7:40pm:
For chrissake, to be part of the market, penalty rates have to respond to demand and supply. They don't. A market is just a collection of buyers and sellers. In a labour market 'Employers' buy labour whilst 'Employees' sell labour. Penalty rates are fixed. They are compulsory. They are imposed by regulation, which is outside the market. If there is a lack of supply of labour on Sunday, then the market rate for wages will go up as employers will likely offer higher pay to attract the labour. That is a market. Likewise in a labour market if there are lots of unemployed workers (an over supply of labour) then the price of labour will come down (unless an outside the market force like GOVT regulation or Collusion by Unions) interferes with the market. In a market, if the price of product is too high, demand for the product decreases. In a labour market, if the price of labour is too high, then demand for labour decreases. People become unemployed. For some businesses the price of labour increased by penalty rates on Sunday is too high, so their demand for labour drops on Sundays. That leads to unemployment. Unemployment is the price society pays for fixed, outside the market penalty rates. Simple but unpalatable fact :-? This price, used to be affordable say 40 years ago or so. Australian business arguably had the productivity and competitive edge 40 years ago for these IR extravagances but times have changed. |
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Title: Re: Penalty rates Crucial Safety Net For Low Paid Post by John Smith on Mar 23rd, 2016 at 1:26pm Swagman wrote on Mar 23rd, 2016 at 1:23pm:
no they are not. You can employ someone for ten years and never pay penalty rates |
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Title: Re: Penalty rates Crucial Safety Net For Low Paid Post by greggerypeccary on Mar 23rd, 2016 at 1:44pm Swagman wrote on Mar 23rd, 2016 at 1:23pm:
The biggest load of bullshit I've ever read. You need to take a look at the real world, Timbo. "If there is a lack of supply of labour on Sunday, then the market rate for wages will go up as employers will likely offer higher pay to attract the labour." If there is a lack of supply of labour on Sunday, the employer will offer an ultimatum: "show up for work on Sunday, or don't bother coming back at all". Moreover, penalty rates don't contribute to unemployment (abolishing them, however, has the potential to increase unemployment). Forget your market theory, and take a look at what actually happens in the real world. |
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Title: Re: Penalty rates Crucial Safety Net For Low Paid Post by greggerypeccary on Mar 23rd, 2016 at 1:51pm Swagman wrote on Mar 23rd, 2016 at 1:23pm:
Complete and utter bullshit. Penalty rates aren't something new (why don't any of you rightards understand this simple fact?). There have been no increases to the Sunday penalty rate. The employer knew exactly what the rates were when they started the business. Thus, they knew exactly how many people they were going to employ and what hours they were going to operate. Stop spreading this nonsense, Timbo. It makes you look very silly. |
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Title: Re: Penalty rates Crucial Safety Net For Low Paid Post by Swagman on Mar 23rd, 2016 at 2:39pm greggerypeccary wrote on Mar 23rd, 2016 at 1:51pm:
I don't recall saying they were new? greggerypeccary wrote on Mar 23rd, 2016 at 1:51pm:
So what? Business activity fluctuates, markets fluctuate, prices fluctuate. That's the point. |
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Title: Re: Penalty rates Crucial Safety Net For Low Paid Post by John Smith on Mar 23rd, 2016 at 2:40pm Swagman wrote on Mar 23rd, 2016 at 2:39pm:
so you finally agree, they have no influence on the number of staff someone needs. :D :D |
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Title: Re: Penalty rates Crucial Safety Net For Low Paid Post by Swagman on Mar 23rd, 2016 at 2:42pm John Smith wrote on Mar 23rd, 2016 at 1:26pm:
Keep smoking your grass clippings Jonathon.....I expect up your way they have minced canetoad in them, so your strange ravings are slightly mitigated.... :D |
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Title: Re: Penalty rates Crucial Safety Net For Low Paid Post by greggerypeccary on Mar 23rd, 2016 at 3:01pm John Smith wrote on Mar 23rd, 2016 at 1:26pm:
Exactly. The person who determines if penalty rates are paid or not, is the employer. Nobody else. If they choose to operate outside of normal business hours, then they will need to pay penalty rates (to compensate the employees for working unsocial hours). However, the decision to open on Sundays or Public Holidays is theirs, and theirs alone. The employee can't make that decision. |
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Title: Re: Penalty rates Crucial Safety Net For Low Paid Post by greggerypeccary on Mar 23rd, 2016 at 3:03pm Swagman wrote on Mar 23rd, 2016 at 2:39pm:
And the employers know what the penalty rates are. If they think they're too high, don't extend trading to Sundays and Public Holidays. Simple, and nobody loses their job. |
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Title: Re: Penalty rates Crucial Safety Net For Low Paid Post by longweekend58 on Mar 23rd, 2016 at 3:58pm greggerypeccary wrote on Mar 23rd, 2016 at 9:37am:
goof for you. and not even closely related to by statement. |
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Title: Re: Penalty rates Crucial Safety Net For Low Paid Post by longweekend58 on Mar 23rd, 2016 at 4:29pm greggerypeccary wrote on Mar 23rd, 2016 at 3:01pm:
the employee CHOOSES???? obviously you've never been in business or the like. employees do not CHOOSE to work a particular time. their employer does |
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Title: Re: Penalty rates Crucial Safety Net For Low Paid Post by John Smith on Mar 23rd, 2016 at 5:07pm longweekend58 wrote on Mar 23rd, 2016 at 4:29pm:
I think I'm starting to see your problem ... you can't far ken read English can you? Where does he say the employee chooses? |
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Title: Re: Penalty rates Crucial Safety Net For Low Paid Post by greggerypeccary on Mar 24th, 2016 at 10:32am longweekend58 wrote on Mar 23rd, 2016 at 4:29pm:
That's exactly what I said. |
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Title: Re: Penalty rates Crucial Safety Net For Low Paid Post by The Grappler on Mar 24th, 2016 at 12:05pm John Smith wrote on Mar 23rd, 2016 at 5:07pm:
It's a Costel genetic flaw..... |
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