The laws, which stretch from Surry Hills to The Rocks, and Kings Cross to Cockle Bay, are stricter than anything residents and businesses have ever known: 1:30am lockouts from all venues, a 3:00am end to drink service and a 10:00pm cut-off from the selling of takeaway alcohol from all providers. Fines of up to $11,000 and/or 12 months imprisonment are the consequences for failing to comply with these new rules.

In September, a Sydney bottle shop was fined $28,000 after it was observed several times selling alcohol after 10pm.

Queensland, which also has lockout laws in place, plans to tighten the noose from July next year; 1:30am last drinks in all bars and pubs, a 1:00am lockout at all venues and a ban of rapid-consumption drinks, such as shots, from midnight. Yet hope remains for residents of other states. Perth has increased the opening times of pubs and clubs on a Sunday to accommodate the push towards a seven day economy.

“The magic you feel on the weekend in cities like London, New York, Melbourne, Paris, Buenos Aires, Hong Kong and Berlin just does not exist in Sydney anymore. The streets seem empty. Instead of feeling safer the city now feels eerie and unsettling,” says Tyson Koh, a spokesperson for Keep Sydney Open, whose role is to connect the public, stakeholders and lawmakers together in the hope of finding a better way forward.

“People are angry about having Sydney turn into a retirement village, so Keep Sydney Open has evolved from representing musicians and venues to also being a group the public can get behind.”
Reclaim the Streets; a global movement that began in the UK, now holds “empowering” protest festivals that combat the “draconian” Sydney lockout laws that Loch says were created through “a manufactured moral panic”.

Thousands attended a rally organised by Reclaim last weekend, claiming that regular Sydneysiders had been “locked out” of their city by excessive rents and late-night curfews.

“We should have used a curfew as a last resort. Instead it was the first,” Loch said.

“They disproportionately punish young people, musicians and DJ’s. We lost at least 30 venues in Kings Cross and Oxford Street. One particularly well-liked dingy queer bar, Phoenix, hadn’t had an issue in the entire time it was operating.”

“After the lockouts the owner decided it was no longer financially viable. Phoenix was refurbished as a high-end food venue, but there was a brawl on opening night.”

The laws, introduced in 2013 were designed to make the streets safer, not to stop people from going out completely. They were implemented following the separate one-punch deaths of two young men, Thomas Kelly and Daniel Christie. Both were simply looking for a night out in Sydney’s infamous Kings Cross and never made it home.

Following the deaths, a cacophony of voices, including the victims’ distraught parents, called for something to be done to end of the “scourge of violence” staining Sydney’s once-safe streets. Pushing back against these voices, many commentators and politicians labelled the reaction a moral panic - a solution to a problem that had been greatly exaggerated.

“It was a classic moral panic,” NSW senator David Leyonhjelm said. “There’s no question it’s a sort of collective punishment for the guilt of individuals.”

Koh believes that the issue of alcohol-fuelled violence was exaggerated by the NSW government, pointing to figures which show violence was at a 10-year low before lockout laws were installed by then-NSW premier Barry O’Farrell.

Others who opposed the laws claimed that they simply weren’t a solution at all. Chief among their concerns was that the laws would either make people angry when the taps ran dry at 1.30am, or that violence would simply move elsewhere.

The chance of violence occurring at 3am - when all partygoers are suddenly pushed onto the streets - has been an ongoing fear.

The restrictions have pushed revellers to the city’s outer suburbs, where locals say revellers clash with the area’s LGBT community. At last weekend’s Reclaim rally, thousands of inner-west residents took to the streets demanding changes to the laws, claiming alcohol-fuelled violence had simply been pushed out of the CBD and out of mind.

“Wanting to tackle violence is a worthy cause,” says Koh, “but these laws have not done that. They have moved alcohol-fuelled assaults to the eastern and inner-western suburbs, and because the curfew addresses the wrong end of the problem, the areas that have lockouts are still riddled with violence and sexual assaults.”

Some venues on King Street and Enmore Road in Newtown have enacted their own voluntary lockouts to keep the violence from their doorstep and other suburbs surrounding the city centre are also feeling the impact.

According to the Bureau of Crime Statistics and Research (BOSCAR), the likes of Surry Hills, Redfern and Pyrmont have recorded a rise in crime since the inception of the new laws. A review in early 2015 found assault rates had dropped by 40% in Kings Cross and 26% in the CBD, but had risen slightly near the Star casino, where the lockout laws do not reach.

If the problem is simply being spread further afield, can it really be claimed the laws have reduced violence, or have they simply pushed it out of the media spotlight?

Hospital admissions and violence rates have decreased in the regions that the laws have been applied to, but critics say that’s simply because there are less people there. City of Sydney data recorded footpath congestion as being down 84% in some areas since the laws were introduced.

And while violence has been at the centre of the debate, critics say the laws have also killed venues that rely on the late-night music scene.

“There was a feeling that the laws were hastily ushered in without any thought given to how they would affect the music scene and the cultural vibrancy of the city. Flash forward two years later and we’ve seen venues close their doors, hundreds of jobs lost, and with very questionable results on the rate of assaults,” said Koh.

These venues include Hugo’s Lounge (voted best nightclub in Australia six times), The Flinders Bar, Q Bar, Trademark Hotel and Soho; iconic destinations that once relied upon late night trading. Businesses are reporting profit losses of up to 40%, demonstrating the crippling effect of the laws on establishments once viewed as the beating heart of Sydney.

“Those lockout laws just killed us. We’re looking for compensation for a bad policy,” the manager of iconic bar The Flinders told Fairfax when shutting his doors for the final time.

And it’s not just venue owners who are losing profit; DJs and musicians can’t find work, and support industries such as convenience stores and kebab shops are struggling to remain open as their prime customers venture elsewhere.

A lesson in how to handle - and not handle - alcohol-fuelled violence may be learned from Victoria. In 2008, then Victorian-premier John Brumby introduced lockout laws following the state’s own spate of violent incidents. The three-month trial, which included 2am lockouts, was not continued and a KPMG report found an increase in late-night assaults.

“There appears to be a culture within the Victorian government to encourage and protect their music scene. Sadly this vision is something the NSW government lacks,” Loch says.

The businesses are fighting, but it’s a battle that gets more difficult as time passes.

A statutory review into the laws will be held in early 2016. Loch believes it’s up to Sydney’s voters to push for change.

“You have to fight for this, because having the odd whinge is not good enough,” he said. “There’s been talk about the people of Sydney taking this lying down, and it’s true.”

“Most people work hard and want to relax on the weekend. Whether that involves dinner, wine or Jager bombs. People who want to have a good time shouldn’t be penalised for it, and they shouldn’t be penalised for the misbehaviour of a few idiots,” Loch said.

For Koh, the message is simple. No amount of regulation or restriction will take away people’s desire to have fun.

“People want to go out late, that will not change, and they’ll do it one way or another. Prohibition never works.

NSW Police Minister Troy Grant did not respond to request for comment.


- Chris Sutton

Couldn't happen to a nicer place......

This is the biggest wank of a BS self interest story I have ever heard

Whinging bar owners are behind this.

How long does it take to get pissed?

I can do it in a couple of hours if I try.

I would have midnight closing if I ruled the world!

Boo hoo. Look at it this way. Alcohol-fuelled violence is down in lock-out areas.

And it's up in every other area.
Also alcohol violence was at it's lowest in years when the lockout laws were introduced.

Why should everyone be punished for the actions of a tiny stupid minority?

Hilarious that the Casino is exempt. What makes them so special?

This is why Australia is considered a nanny state. Curfews on adults would be laughed out of the building in a second in any other western country in the world, but the Australian public is too quick to jump on scare campaigns and cry for big daddy Government to protect them from everything.

What better of an excuse does Australia need now to finally legalize weed?

Armchair_Politician wrote on Jan 14^th, 2016 at 8:18am:

Boo hoo. Look at it this way. Alcohol-fuelled violence is down in lock-out areas.

You are of course correct there. Unfortunately, those patrons that cause all the one punch issues, bashings, anti-social behaviour etc have moved on to areas where the operating hours are the same, the grog is cheaper, the bands are better and the security not as stringent.  The problem has just changed suburbs. 

Redmond Neck wrote on Jan 14^th, 2016 at 8:08am:

This is the biggest play of a BS self interest story I have ever heard Whinging bar owners are behind this. How long does it take to get pissed? I can do it in a couple of hours if I try. I would have midnight closing if I ruled the world!

What about the people who finish work at midnight, and want to go to the pub for a few drinks?

Not everybody works 9 to 5.

greggerypeccary wrote on Jan 14^th, 2016 at 9:28am:

Redmond Neck wrote on Jan 14th, 2016 at 8:08am: This is the biggest play of a BS self interest story I have ever heard Whinging bar owners are behind this. How long does it take to get pissed? I can do it in a couple of hours if I try. I would have midnight closing if I ruled the world! What about the people who finish work at midnight, and want to go to the pub for a few drinks? Not everybody works 9 to 5.

Tough titties!

Go to the club in the morning for a few!

You wont get done for DUI either which is a plus!

Redmond Neck wrote on Jan 14^th, 2016 at 9:32am:

greggerypeccary wrote on Jan 14th, 2016 at 9:28am: Redmond Neck wrote on Jan 14th, 2016 at 8:08am: This is the biggest play of a BS self interest story I have ever heard Whinging bar owners are behind this. How long does it take to get pissed? I can do it in a couple of hours if I try. I would have midnight closing if I ruled the world! What about the people who finish work at midnight, and want to go to the pub for a few drinks? Not everybody works 9 to 5. Tough titties! Go to the club in the morning for a few! You wont get done for DUI either which is a plus!

Onya Red!

;D

Redmond Neck wrote on Jan 14^th, 2016 at 9:32am:

Go to the club in the morning for a few!

Drinking before work isn't a very good idea.


Redmond Neck wrote on Jan 14^th, 2016 at 9:32am:

You wont get done for DUI either which is a plus!

Incorrect.

You can be done for DUI at any time of the day or night.

Vic wrote on Jan 14^th, 2016 at 9:26am:

Armchair_Politician wrote on Jan 14th, 2016 at 8:18am: Boo hoo. Look at it this way. Alcohol-fuelled violence is down in lock-out areas. You are of course correct there. Unfortunately, those patrons that cause all the one punch issues, bashings, anti-social behaviour etc have moved on to areas where the operating hours are the same, the grog is cheaper, the bands are better and the security not as stringent.  The problem has just changed suburbs.

Then make the laws STATE WIDE, simple.

Then after all the hand wringing from the alcohol industry is over, Australians might actually grow up & learn how to drink without spewing/pissing all over the place, punching people to death & generally being assholes.

There are many countries around the world that drink as much if not more & do not have the problems with alcohol Australians seem to.


greggerypeccary wrote on Jan 14^th, 2016 at 9:28am:

What about the people who finish work at midnight, and want to go to the pub for a few drinks?

I would suggest the majority of those workers are in:

hospitality - so have 1 at the bar
Mining - Far flung mining towns would have their own rules as they do now, in fact alot of FIFO villages are now DRY ZONES
Nursing & Policing - I don't think you'll get to many whinges from them.

As for the rest, go to the drive through & put some in the fridge at home, finish work & go home.

Dsmithy70 wrote on Jan 14^th, 2016 at 9:49am:

As for the rest, go to the drive through & put some in the fridge at home, finish work & go home.

Why should they miss out on the chance to go to a pub and socialise?

greggerypeccary wrote on Jan 14^th, 2016 at 9:52am:

Dsmithy70 wrote on Jan 14th, 2016 at 9:49am: As for the rest, go to the drive through & put some in the fridge at home, finish work & go home. Why should they miss out on the chance to go to a pub and socialise?

They don't, they can go to the pub on their days off.

Dsmithy70 wrote on Jan 14^th, 2016 at 10:00am:

greggerypeccary wrote on Jan 14th, 2016 at 9:52am: Dsmithy70 wrote on Jan 14th, 2016 at 9:49am: As for the rest, go to the drive through & put some in the fridge at home, finish work & go home. Why should they miss out on the chance to go to a pub and socialise? They don't, they can go to the pub on their days off.

Why should they miss out on the chance to go to a pub and socialise after work?

greggerypeccary wrote on Jan 14^th, 2016 at 10:03am:

Dsmithy70 wrote on Jan 14th, 2016 at 10:00am: greggerypeccary wrote on Jan 14th, 2016 at 9:52am: Dsmithy70 wrote on Jan 14th, 2016 at 9:49am: As for the rest, go to the drive through & put some in the fridge at home, finish work & go home. Why should they miss out on the chance to go to a pub and socialise? They don't, they can go to the pub on their days off. Why should they miss out on the chance to go to a pub and socialise after work?

Exactly what size group of people are you arguing for, .001%, .01%, 1%

And why does this miniscule portion of the population have more rights than the larger majorities wishes.

Anyone who needs to go to the pub at 12.30am on a Wednesday night needs to actually ask some questions of themselves.

Dsmithy70 wrote on Jan 14^th, 2016 at 10:21am:

Anyone who needs to go to the pub at 12.30am on a Wednesday night needs to actually ask some questions of themselves.

Nobody said anything about "needs to".

Shift workers who finish around 11pm or midnight might like to go to the pub afterwards to have a few drinks with other people.  To socialise.

What questions do they need to ask of themselves, and how are they any different than the people who go to a pub after 5pm?

greggerypeccary wrote on Jan 14^th, 2016 at 10:24am:

Dsmithy70 wrote on Jan 14th, 2016 at 10:21am: Anyone who needs to go to the pub at 12.30am on a Wednesday night needs to actually ask some questions of themselves. Nobody said anything about "needs to". Shift workers who finish around 11pm or midnight might like to go to the pub afterwards to have a few drinks with other people.  To socialise. What questions do they need to ask of themselves, and how are they any different than the people who go to a pub after 5pm?

And I have provided the scenario of the most popular shift industries.

As I said in my 1st post if Australians could actually drink responsibly we wouldn't need these laws.

And seeing it wasn't until the 90's pubs started staying open until the wee hours of the morning, what has changed in these individuals & how did they cope the many decades before when pubs closed at 11pm - 12am( that's CLOSED not just lock out).

How did these industries even find workers when pubs CLOSED at 6pm?

Dsmithy70 wrote on Jan 14^th, 2016 at 10:29am:

And I have provided the scenario of the most popular shift industries.

Completely irrelevant to my questions.

"Anyone who needs to go to the pub at 12.30am on a Wednesday night needs to actually ask some questions of themselves."

What questions do they need to ask of themselves, and how are they any different to the people who go to a pub after 5pm?

Do they have to ask questions of themselves too?

greggerypeccary wrote on Jan 14^th, 2016 at 10:32am:

Dsmithy70 wrote on Jan 14th, 2016 at 10:29am: And I have provided the scenario of the most popular shift industries. Completely irrelevant to my questions. "Anyone who needs to go to the pub at 12.30am on a Wednesday night needs to actually ask some questions of themselves." What questions do they need to ask of themselves, and how are they any different to the people who go to a pub after 5pm? Do they have to ask questions of themselves too?

So your now using the longweekend debate style, forget about the thread & topic of discussion & focus on 1 sentence from a poster with an opposite view.

Ok The key word in you tunnel vision is NEED.

Frankly IMHO anyone who NEEDS to drink alcohol everyday after work is a sad case, but thats just it Greg it's my opinion.

The facts are the lock out laws seem to reduce alcohol fuelled violence & this is backed by evidence in both Newcastle & now Sydney.

The few 1000 people you seem to think are being discriminated against will just have to suck it up, & enjoy a drink on their days off.

OR go to the suburbs just a few klm's from the lock out zone & SOCIALISE.

Dsmithy70 wrote on Jan 14^th, 2016 at 10:39am:

Frankly IMHO anyone who NEEDS to drink alcohol everyday after work is a sad case, but thats just it Greg it's my opinion.

I agree with you, and I clearly stated that nobody is talking about "needs to" (in my previous post).

So, let's just put that to one side, because we are on the same page: nobody "needs to" drink.

Now, you said:

"Anyone who needs to go to the pub at 12.30am on a Wednesday night needs to actually ask some questions of themselves."

Firstly, what questions do they need to ask of themselves?

Secondly, how are they any different to the people who go to a pub after 5pm - why should they be denied the chance to socialise at a pub after work?

And finally, do the people who go to the pub after 5pm need to ask questions of themselves too?

Vic wrote on Jan 14^th, 2016 at 9:26am:

Armchair_Politician wrote on Jan 14th, 2016 at 8:18am: Boo hoo. Look at it this way. Alcohol-fuelled violence is down in lock-out areas. You are of course correct there. Unfortunately, those patrons that cause all the one punch issues, bashings, anti-social behaviour etc have moved on to areas where the operating hours are the same, the grog is cheaper, the bands are better and the security not as stringent.  The problem has just changed suburbs.

So make it state-wide.

Redmond Neck wrote on Jan 14^th, 2016 at 9:32am:

greggerypeccary wrote on Jan 14th, 2016 at 9:28am: Redmond Neck wrote on Jan 14th, 2016 at 8:08am: This is the biggest play of a BS self interest story I have ever heard Whinging bar owners are behind this. How long does it take to get pissed? I can do it in a couple of hours if I try. I would have midnight closing if I ruled the world! What about the people who finish work at midnight, and want to go to the pub for a few drinks? Not everybody works 9 to 5. Tough titties! Go to the club in the morning for a few! You wont get done for DUI either which is a plus!

Or go to the bottle shop and take a six-pack home and watch a movie.

greggerypeccary wrote on Jan 14^th, 2016 at 10:48am:

Dsmithy70 wrote on Jan 14th, 2016 at 10:39am: Frankly IMHO anyone who NEEDS to drink alcohol everyday after work is a sad case, but thats just it Greg it's my opinion. I agree with you, and I clearly stated that nobody is talking about "needs to" (in my previous post). So, let's just put that to one side, because we are on the same page: nobody "needs to" drink. Now, you said: "Anyone who needs to go to the pub at 12.30am on a Wednesday night needs to actually ask some questions of themselves." Firstly, what questions do they need to ask of themselves? Secondly, how are they any different to the people who go to a pub after 5pm - why should they be denied the chance to socialise at a pub after work? And finally, do the people who go to the pub after 5pm need to ask questions of themselves too?

Last time

If we have put "NEEDS" aside & agree there is no need for me to answer any of your distracting questions.

If they don't NEED a drink whether they can get one or not is irrelevant.

But here goes.


greggerypeccary wrote on Jan 14^th, 2016 at 10:48am:

Firstly, what questions do they need to ask of themselves?

Am I an alcoholic & is alcohol affecting my life in a detrimental way.


greggerypeccary wrote on Jan 14^th, 2016 at 10:48am:

Secondly, how are they any different to the people who go to a pub after 5pm - why should they be denied the chance to socialise at a pub after work?

Because Australian society is too immature to allow the service of alcohol after a certain time because we somehow have the idea drinking until unable to control yourself is heroic, instead of moronic.


greggerypeccary wrote on Jan 14^th, 2016 at 10:48am:

And finally, do the people who go to the pub after 5pm need to ask questions of themselves too?

As stated, anyone who Needs a drink after work does need to ask themselves questions whether that finish time is 8am, 8pm or 12am.

greggerypeccary wrote on Jan 14^th, 2016 at 10:48am:

Dsmithy70 wrote on Jan 14th, 2016 at 10:39am: Frankly IMHO anyone who NEEDS to drink alcohol everyday after work is a sad case, but thats just it Greg it's my opinion. I agree with you, and I clearly stated that nobody is talking about "needs to" (in my previous post). So, let's just put that to one side, because we are on the same page: nobody "needs to" drink. Now, you said: "Anyone who needs to go to the pub at 12.30am on a Wednesday night needs to actually ask some questions of themselves." Firstly, what questions do they need to ask of themselves? Secondly, how are they any different to the people who go to a pub after 5pm - why should they be denied the chance to socialise at a pub after work? And finally, do the people who go to the pub after 5pm need to ask questions of themselves too?

Firstly, what questions do they need to ask of themselves?


Am I thirsty ?

finally, do the people who go to the pub after 5pm need to ask questions of themselves too?

Yes : Am I thirsty.

Dsmithy70 wrote on Jan 14^th, 2016 at 11:20am:

greggerypeccary wrote on Jan 14th, 2016 at 10:48am: Dsmithy70 wrote on Jan 14th, 2016 at 10:39am: Frankly IMHO anyone who NEEDS to drink alcohol everyday after work is a sad case, but thats just it Greg it's my opinion. I agree with you, and I clearly stated that nobody is talking about "needs to" (in my previous post). So, let's just put that to one side, because we are on the same page: nobody "needs to" drink. Now, you said: "Anyone who needs to go to the pub at 12.30am on a Wednesday night needs to actually ask some questions of themselves." Firstly, what questions do they need to ask of themselves? Secondly, how are they any different to the people who go to a pub after 5pm - why should they be denied the chance to socialise at a pub after work? And finally, do the people who go to the pub after 5pm need to ask questions of themselves too? Last time If we have put "NEEDS" aside & agree there is no need for me to answer any of your distracting questions. If they don't NEED a drink whether they can get one or not is irrelevant. But here goes. greggerypeccary wrote on Jan 14th, 2016 at 10:48am: Firstly, what questions do they need to ask of themselves? Am I an alcoholic & is alcohol affecting my life in a detrimental way. greggerypeccary wrote on Jan 14th, 2016 at 10:48am: Secondly, how are they any different to the people who go to a pub after 5pm - why should they be denied the chance to socialise at a pub after work? Because Australian society is too immature to allow the service of alcohol after a certain time because we somehow have the idea drinking until unable to control yourself is heroic, instead of moronic. greggerypeccary wrote on Jan 14th, 2016 at 10:48am: And finally, do the people who go to the pub after 5pm need to ask questions of themselves too? As stated, anyone who Needs a drink after work does need to ask themselves questions whether that finish time is 8am, 8pm or 12am.

Does anyone who wants to go to the pub at 12.30am on a Wednesday night need to ask some questions of themselves?

greggerypeccary wrote on Jan 14^th, 2016 at 11:30am:

Does anyone who wants to go to the pub at 12.30am on a Wednesday night need to ask some questions of themselves?

Yes,

Is the pub open?

Am I able to enter?

greggerypeccary wrote on Jan 14^th, 2016 at 10:03am:

Dsmithy70 wrote on Jan 14th, 2016 at 10:00am: greggerypeccary wrote on Jan 14th, 2016 at 9:52am: Dsmithy70 wrote on Jan 14th, 2016 at 9:49am: As for the rest, go to the drive through & put some in the fridge at home, finish work & go home. Why should they miss out on the chance to go to a pub and socialise? They don't, they can go to the pub on their days off. Why should they miss out on the chance to go to a pub and socialise after work?

Because they get penalty rates to compensate... :D

Swagman wrote on Jan 15^th, 2016 at 1:10pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Jan 14th, 2016 at 10:03am: Dsmithy70 wrote on Jan 14th, 2016 at 10:00am: greggerypeccary wrote on Jan 14th, 2016 at 9:52am: Dsmithy70 wrote on Jan 14th, 2016 at 9:49am: As for the rest, go to the drive through & put some in the fridge at home, finish work & go home. Why should they miss out on the chance to go to a pub and socialise? They don't, they can go to the pub on their days off. Why should they miss out on the chance to go to a pub and socialise after work? Because they get penalty rates to compensate...

Yeah, not a bad point.

Another good reason to leave penalty rates alone.

greggerypeccary wrote on Jan 14^th, 2016 at 10:48am:

Dsmithy70 wrote on Jan 14th, 2016 at 10:39am: Frankly IMHO anyone who NEEDS to drink alcohol everyday after work is a sad case, but thats just it Greg it's my opinion. I agree with you, and I clearly stated that nobody is talking about "needs to" (in my previous post). So, let's just put that to one side, because we are on the same page: nobody "needs to" drink. Now, you said: "Anyone who needs to go to the pub at 12.30am on a Wednesday night needs to actually ask some questions of themselves." Firstly, what questions do they need to ask of themselves? Secondly, how are they any different to the people who go to a pub after 5pm - why should they be denied the chance to socialise at a pub after work? And finally, do the people who go to the pub after 5pm need to ask questions of themselves too?

Dear Greggy,
I saw a show on TV a while back about Kings Cross.

It was not pretty -
violence, drug taking, people vomiting in gutters, muggings , bashings,
bogans everywhere, sex on public streets
between prostitutes & clients -
even poofters sodomising each others butt holes.

It's time the pubs were closed at 10pm.

Bobby. wrote on Jan 15^th, 2016 at 1:18pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Jan 14th, 2016 at 10:48am: Dsmithy70 wrote on Jan 14th, 2016 at 10:39am: Frankly IMHO anyone who NEEDS to drink alcohol everyday after work is a sad case, but thats just it Greg it's my opinion. I agree with you, and I clearly stated that nobody is talking about "needs to" (in my previous post). So, let's just put that to one side, because we are on the same page: nobody "needs to" drink. Now, you said: "Anyone who needs to go to the pub at 12.30am on a Wednesday night needs to actually ask some questions of themselves." Firstly, what questions do they need to ask of themselves? Secondly, how are they any different to the people who go to a pub after 5pm - why should they be denied the chance to socialise at a pub after work? And finally, do the people who go to the pub after 5pm need to ask questions of themselves too? Dear Greggy, I saw a show on TV a while back about Kings Cross. It was not pretty - violence, drug taking, people vomiting in gutters, muggings , bashings, bogans everywhere, sex on public streets between prostitutes & clients - even poofters sodomising each others butt holes.

You sure it wasn't a family reunion at Captain Spaulding's house?

It was Kings Cross & even children had looked out their windows at night

awoken by the noise to see depraved  acts on the streets below them.

Bobby. wrote on Jan 15^th, 2016 at 1:30pm:

It was Kings Cross & even children had looked out their windows at night awoken by the noise to see depraved  acts on the streets below them.

It's more to do with drugs than alcohol, Booby.

You could close all the bars in the Cross, and you'd still have the same problems.

greggerypeccary wrote on Jan 15^th, 2016 at 1:32pm:

Bobby. wrote on Jan 15th, 2016 at 1:30pm: It was Kings Cross & even children had looked out their windows at night awoken by the noise to see depraved  acts on the streets below them. It's more to do with drugs than alcohol, sir Bobby. You could close all the bars in the Cross, and you'd still have the same problems.

It reminds me of Sodom and Gomorrah.

Dsmithy70 wrote on Jan 14^th, 2016 at 10:29am:

As I said in my 1st post if Australians could actually drink responsibly we wouldn't need these laws.

These laws came in because people were killed with one punch in the streets, none of the victims were killed in any of these venues that have had to close early because of these attacks.

The people in the clubs are drinking responsibly in places that are covered by responsible service of alcohol legislation, the attackers had nothing to do with any of these places that are now locked up they attacked their victims in the street.

The problem is street violence it has nothing to do with the clubs these idiotic laws target, why are we punishing business owners who had nothing to do with this violence?

I think I will order some of those "Nanny State" number plate holders it tells us what we have become.

Bobby. wrote on Jan 15^th, 2016 at 1:34pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Jan 15th, 2016 at 1:32pm: Bobby. wrote on Jan 15th, 2016 at 1:30pm: It was Kings Cross & even children had looked out their windows at night awoken by the noise to see depraved  acts on the streets below them. It's more to do with drugs than alcohol, sir Bobby. You could close all the bars in the Cross, and you'd still have the same problems. It reminds me of Sodom and Gomorrah.

Sounds like just another Saturday night in Northbridge.

greggerypeccary wrote on Jan 15^th, 2016 at 1:38pm:

Bobby. wrote on Jan 15th, 2016 at 1:34pm: greggerypeccary wrote on Jan 15th, 2016 at 1:32pm: Bobby. wrote on Jan 15th, 2016 at 1:30pm: It was Kings Cross & even children had looked out their windows at night awoken by the noise to see depraved  acts on the streets below them. It's more to do with drugs than alcohol, sir Bobby. You could close all the bars in the Cross, and you'd still have the same problems. It reminds me of Sodom and Gomorrah. Sounds like just another Saturday night in Northbridge.

Greggy - you'd love Kings Cross -

you wouldn't be able to sit down for a week after going there.

Bobby. wrote on Jan 15^th, 2016 at 1:40pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Jan 15th, 2016 at 1:38pm: Bobby. wrote on Jan 15th, 2016 at 1:34pm: greggerypeccary wrote on Jan 15th, 2016 at 1:32pm: Bobby. wrote on Jan 15th, 2016 at 1:30pm: It was Kings Cross & even children had looked out their windows at night awoken by the noise to see depraved  acts on the streets below them. It's more to do with drugs than alcohol, sir Bobby. You could close all the bars in the Cross, and you'd still have the same problems. It reminds me of Sodom and Gomorrah. Sounds like just another Saturday night in Northbridge. Greggy - you'd love Kings Cross - you wouldn't be able to sit down for a week after going there.

Have they taken away the chairs?

I'm from Sydney, Booby, and I hate the Cross.

I avoid it at all costs.

Kiron22 wrote on Jan 13^th, 2016 at 4:31pm:

If the problem is simply being spread further afield, can it really be claimed the laws have reduced violence, or have they simply pushed it out of the media spotlight? Hospital admissions and violence rates have decreased in the regions that the laws have been applied to, but critics say that’s simply because there are less people there. City of Sydney data recorded footpath congestion as being down 84% in some areas since the laws were introduced. And while violence has been at the centre of the debate, critics say the laws have also killed venues that rely on the late-night music scene. “There was a feeling that the laws were hastily ushered in without any thought given to how they would affect the music scene and the cultural vibrancy of the city. Flash forward two years later and we’ve seen venues close their doors, hundreds of jobs lost, and with very questionable results on the rate of assaults,” said Koh. These venues include Hugo’s Lounge (voted best nightclub in Australia six times), The Flinders Bar, Q Bar, Trademark Hotel and Soho; iconic destinations that once relied upon late night trading. Businesses are reporting profit losses of up to 40%, demonstrating the crippling effect of the laws on establishments once viewed as the beating heart of Sydney. “Those lockout laws just killed us. We’re looking for compensation for a bad policy,” the manager of iconic bar The Flinders told Fairfax when shutting his doors for the final time. And it’s not just venue owners who are losing profit; DJs and musicians can’t find work, and support industries such as convenience stores and kebab shops are struggling to remain open as their prime customers venture elsewhere. A lesson in how to handle - and not handle - alcohol-fuelled violence may be learned from Victoria. In 2008, then Victorian-premier John Brumby introduced lockout laws following the state’s own spate of violent incidents. The three-month trial, which included 2am lockouts, was not continued and a KPMG report found an increase in late-night assaults. “There appears to be a culture within the Victorian government to encourage and protect their music scene. Sadly this vision is something the NSW government lacks,” Loch says. The businesses are fighting, but it’s a battle that gets more difficult as time passes. A statutory review into the laws will be held in early 2016. Loch believes it’s up to Sydney’s voters to push for change. “You have to fight for this, because having the odd whinge is not good enough,” he said. “There’s been talk about the people of Sydney taking this lying down, and it’s true.” “Most people work hard and want to relax on the weekend. Whether that involves dinner, wine or Jager bombs. People who want to have a good time shouldn’t be penalised for it, and they shouldn’t be penalised for the misbehaviour of a few nice people,” Loch said. For Koh, the message is simple. No amount of regulation or restriction will take away people’s desire to have fun. “People want to go out late, that will not change, and they’ll do it one way or another. Prohibition never works. NSW Police Minister Troy Grant did not respond to request for comment. - Chris Sutton

And he's wrong..the only thing 'lock-out laws' do is reduce alcohol fueled violence, by limiting the number of pubs/clubs that drunken idiots can visit in one session.

Baronvonrort wrote on Jan 15^th, 2016 at 1:37pm:

Dsmithy70 wrote on Jan 14th, 2016 at 10:29am: As I said in my 1st post if Australians could actually drink responsibly we wouldn't need these laws. These laws came in because people were killed with one punch in the streets, none of the victims were killed in any of these venues that have had to close early because of these attacks. The people in the clubs are drinking responsibly in places that are covered by responsible service of alcohol legislation, the attackers had nothing to do with any of these places that are now locked up they attacked their victims in the street. The problem is street violence it has nothing to do with the clubs these idiotic laws target, why are we punishing business owners who had nothing to do with this violence? I think I will order some of those "Nanny State" number plate holders it tells us what we have become.

I would agree in just about every other circumstance, however having travelled extensively I am yet to set an out of control local, spewing in the street or picking fights.
Something I see regularly in Newcastle & Sydney.

The extent of control & influence the alcohol & gaming industry has over our society is ridiculous, so again IMHO anything that reduces it is a good thing.
F34K em

Dsmithy70 wrote on Jan 15^th, 2016 at 1:55pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on Jan 15th, 2016 at 1:37pm: Dsmithy70 wrote on Jan 14th, 2016 at 10:29am: As I said in my 1st post if Australians could actually drink responsibly we wouldn't need these laws. These laws came in because people were killed with one punch in the streets, none of the victims were killed in any of these venues that have had to close early because of these attacks. The people in the clubs are drinking responsibly in places that are covered by responsible service of alcohol legislation, the attackers had nothing to do with any of these places that are now locked up they attacked their victims in the street. The problem is street violence it has nothing to do with the clubs these idiotic laws target, why are we punishing business owners who had nothing to do with this violence? I think I will order some of those "Nanny State" number plate holders it tells us what we have become. I would agree in just about every other circumstance, however having travelled extensively I am yet to set an out of control local, spewing in the street or picking fights. Something I see regularly in Newcastle & Sydney. The extent of control & influence the alcohol & gaming industry has over our society is ridiculous, so again IMHO anything that reduces it is a good thing. F34K em

Why should club owners be blamed for what happens in the street , the club bouncers cannot do anything with people in public places that responsibility rests with the Police.

The lockout laws came because of violence in the streets it had nothing to do with people spewing in the street, RSA laws cast doubt on clubs/pubs being responsible for these people not handling their drinks.

Typcial lefty, you don't like it so instead of just avoiding it you want to ban things.

Baronvonrort wrote on Jan 15^th, 2016 at 2:01pm:

Dsmithy70 wrote on Jan 15th, 2016 at 1:55pm: Baronvonrort wrote on Jan 15th, 2016 at 1:37pm: Dsmithy70 wrote on Jan 14th, 2016 at 10:29am: As I said in my 1st post if Australians could actually drink responsibly we wouldn't need these laws. These laws came in because people were killed with one punch in the streets, none of the victims were killed in any of these venues that have had to close early because of these attacks. The people in the clubs are drinking responsibly in places that are covered by responsible service of alcohol legislation, the attackers had nothing to do with any of these places that are now locked up they attacked their victims in the street. The problem is street violence it has nothing to do with the clubs these idiotic laws target, why are we punishing business owners who had nothing to do with this violence? I think I will order some of those "Nanny State" number plate holders it tells us what we have become. I would agree in just about every other circumstance, however having travelled extensively I am yet to set an out of control local, spewing in the street or picking fights. Something I see regularly in Newcastle & Sydney. The extent of control & influence the alcohol & gaming industry has over our society is ridiculous, so again IMHO anything that reduces it is a good thing. F34K em Why should club owners be blamed for what happens in the street , the club bouncers cannot do anything with people in public places that responsibility rests with the Police. The lockout laws came because of violence in the streets it had nothing to do with people spewing in the street, RSA laws cast doubt on clubs/pubs being responsible for these people not handling their drinks. Typcial lefty, you don't like it so instead of just avoiding it you want to ban things.

Typical righty

Instead of addressing a problem you want more cops & rules then cry nanny state.

Avoiding it, why should I have to avoid a night out because of fear of assault?
Imagine your outcry of nanny state if publican's actually did enforce RSA.

You've got no idea what you're talking about, pub & club owners are not going broke , if you want to drink until 4am you still can(thanks to the turning of blind eyes to RSA) you just can't jump from venue to venue.

And if your a dickhead in 1 after 12am or what ever it is then you can't go be a dickhead elsewhere.

Lockout laws work, and thats why we should apply them to immigration.  :)

innocentbystander. wrote on Jan 15^th, 2016 at 2:56pm:

Lockout laws work, and thats why we should apply them to immigration.  :)

Close the pubs at 10pm.