http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-01-12/bill-shorten-challenges-turnbull-to-debate-gst-increase/7083480

Opposition Leader Bill Shorten has challenged Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull to a public debate on the GST, following indications from New South Wales Labor leader Luke Foley that he may support an increase.

Mr Shorten returned to work today, launching a three-week tour to spruik Federal Labor's opposition to any increases to the GST.

Addressing media in Queanbeyan, NSW, he sidestepped a question as to whether the tour was a scare campaign, instead asking Mr Turnbull to participate in a public debate.

"On the day before Parliament starts this year, at the National Press Club, I'm prepared to debate Malcolm Turnbull about why increasing the GST to 15 per cent in any set of circumstances is a bad idea," he said.

"Now if Malcolm Turnbull is fair dinkum, he'll front up."

The invitation comes just days after Mr Foley said he would consider supporting an increase in the tax, from 10 to 15 per cent, on the condition the funds were used for health and education.

He told Fairfax Media any increase should also include compensation for low-income earners.

Mr Shorten dismissed the comments, saying the states had been "taken hostage" by cuts in the federal budget.

But Mr Shorten's campaign has been labelled as irresponsible by Liberal Cabinet minister Simon Birmingham.

Senator Birmingham said tax reform needed a "sensible and mature" debate.

"Mr Shorten is being grossly irresponsible by ruling out matters in relation to tax reform without giving that comprehensive and sensible look which we are undertaking through the tax reform white paper process," he said.

Mr Turnbull is yet to indicate his position on potential changes to the GST, but Federal Treasurer Scott Morrison has confirmed he will consider giving a share of income tax to the states and territories in return for an increased tax rate.

Shorten & Labor will continue to flail about on a road to nowhere.

Exactly how & why do you think this is a positive for our country?

I would like to see that DEBATE..... not them talking about themselves...

economists asking them questions.??..

I would like to see that...

I cant see any other way for GST to go.. to be honest....an increase has beena  long time coming...we have been pretty lucky.. what with our mining boom and all..but the good times are over... and we need to suck it up and get on with it..stop whinging...its almost 16 years......

and apart from the few who lives were altered beyond repair when it first came in....we are so used to it.. no one knows how much they pay each week in GST ::) ::) ::)

we have to grow up.. and realise its the best and most equal way .

no one wants to pay TAX....but then no one wants to go without either...

all it amounts to... is let the user pay????...

if I dont want to  pay gst on a chicken I buy a raw one and cook it myself..... if I cant be bothered I buy a cooked one and pay the service charge....

its all about choices.....

come on Australians wake up.....we pay bugger all by some countries standards..

cods wrote on Jan 12^th, 2016 at 1:37pm:

I would like to see that DEBATE..... not them talking about themselves... economists asking them questions.??.. I would like to see that... I cant see any other way for GST to go.. to be honest....an increase has beena  long time coming...we have been pretty lucky.. what with our mining boom and all..but the good times are over... and we need to suck it up and get on with it..stop whinging...its almost 16 years...... and apart from the few who lives were altered beyond repair when it first came in....we are so used to it.. no one knows how much they pay each week in GST ::) ::) ::) we have to grow up.. and realise its the best and most equal way . no one wants to pay TAX....but then no one wants to go without either... all it amounts to... is let the user pay????... if I dont want to  pay gst on a chicken I buy a raw one and cook it myself..... if I cant be bothered I buy a cooked one and pay the service charge.... its all about choices..... come on Australians wake up.....we pay bugger all by some countries standards..

its almost 16 years

the Libs have been pushing it since 14 years and even 16 is nothing for a tax that we were assured would be sufficient to drive the next century.

Remember the mechanism behind this tax was meant to make it impossible for it to be increased at any time. That was the commitment from the Liberals.

Abbott / Turnbull are the very next Liberal government and they are pissing on Howards guarantee.

Dnarever wrote on Jan 12^th, 2016 at 2:48pm:

the Libs have been pushing it since 14 years and even 16 is nothing for a tax that we were assured would be sufficient to drive the next century.

Why would the Federal LIBs push for an increase in GST when it does not benefit from it?

Maqqa wrote on Jan 12^th, 2016 at 2:49pm:

Dnarever wrote on Jan 12th, 2016 at 2:48pm: the Libs have been pushing it since 14 years and even 16 is nothing for a tax that we were assured would be sufficient to drive the next century. Why would the Federal LIBs push for an increase in GST when it does not benefit from it?

If it is a question maybe ask the Liberals ?

If you are inferring that they haven't been pushing for a GST increase than you are probably beyond help.

Dsmithy70 wrote on Jan 12^th, 2016 at 1:19pm:

Shorten & Labor will continue to flail about on a road to nowhere. Exactly how & why do you think this is a positive for our country?

Well, when the MSM gives Labor NO coverage except stupid stories like ridiculing Shorten
for actually being human and dancing with people, and actively promote the idea that Labor
is floundering then, of course, they will.

Our problem is not that we have a bad Opposition, it's that we have a relatively GOOD one
which is simply being deliberately silenced or denigrated by a very BAD media.

And that too many are ignorant or apathetic enough to actually believe that media.

Kat wrote on Jan 12^th, 2016 at 3:44pm:

Well, when the MSM gives Labor NO coverage except stupid stories like ridiculing Shorten for actually being human and dancing with people, and actively promote the idea that Labor is floundering then, of course, they will. Our problem is not that we have a bad Opposition, it's that we have a relatively GOOD one which is simply being deliberately silenced or denigrated by a very BAD media. And that too many are ignorant or apathetic enough to actually believe that media.

What are their policies?
What is their vision?

Wong is about the ONLY decent performer & she's in the wrong house.

Wish I could see what you see Kat, perhaps your reply will enlighten me.

So Bill Shorten is back at work, and his first order of business is the GST? What about the victims of the bushfires?

GET READY FOR THE BACKFLIP  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Dsmithy70 wrote on Jan 12^th, 2016 at 1:19pm:

Shorten & Labor will continue to flail about on a road to nowhere. Exactly how & why do you think this is a positive for our country?

ensuring labor remains out of office IS a positive for the country.

politicians should debate more often ... not the pre-prepared questions with the scripted answers, but the scruff of the neck debating whereby they explain their positions.

I can see why the libs don't like debates ..... slogans don't work so well when you have to support your arguments

longweekend58 wrote on Jan 12^th, 2016 at 4:03pm:

Dsmithy70 wrote on Jan 12th, 2016 at 1:19pm: Shorten & Labor will continue to flail about on a road to nowhere. Exactly how & why do you think this is a positive for our country? ensuring labor remains out of office IS a positive for the country.

everyone loves copper internet : it's official, yayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy  ::) ::)

John Smith wrote on Jan 12^th, 2016 at 4:28pm:

politicians should debate more often ... not the pre-prepared questions with the scripted answers, but the scruff of the neck debating whereby they explain their positions. I can see why the libs don't like debates ..... slogans don't work so well when you have to support your arguments

opposition leaders love debates. that have everything to gain and little to lose. no one is listening to shorten on any topic and so he wants a platform to speak from. turnball wont give it to him.

longweekend58 wrote on Jan 12^th, 2016 at 4:54pm:

John Smith wrote on Jan 12th, 2016 at 4:28pm: politicians should debate more often ... not the pre-prepared questions with the scripted answers, but the scruff of the neck debating whereby they explain their positions. I can see why the libs don't like debates ..... slogans don't work so well when you have to support your arguments opposition leaders love debates. that have everything to gain and little to lose. no one is listening to shorten on any topic and so he wants a platform to speak from. turnball wont give it to him.

of course not, especially since he'll either have to lie or tell the truth about what he has planned. Either option won't suit Turncoat just yet. He doesn't want to lie because he saw what happened to Abbott when the truth came out, and he doesn't want to tell the truth because he's not ready to announce his plans yet. If he can get away without saying anything, he will.

John Smith wrote on Jan 12^th, 2016 at 4:58pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Jan 12th, 2016 at 4:54pm: John Smith wrote on Jan 12th, 2016 at 4:28pm: politicians should debate more often ... not the pre-prepared questions with the scripted answers, but the scruff of the neck debating whereby they explain their positions. I can see why the libs don't like debates ..... slogans don't work so well when you have to support your arguments opposition leaders love debates. that have everything to gain and little to lose. no one is listening to shorten on any topic and so he wants a platform to speak from. turnball wont give it to him. of course not, especially since he'll either have to lie or tell the truth about what he has planned. Either option won't suit Turncoat just yet. He doesn't want to lie because he saw what happened to Abbott when the truth came out, and he doesn't want to tell the truth because he's not ready to announce his plans yet. If he can get away without saying anything, he will.

you really dont understand pretty much anything, do you.  if not for SOB I'd have to say you are the stupidest dullest poster we have seen here.

John Smith wrote on Jan 12^th, 2016 at 4:58pm:

of course not, especially since he'll either have to lie or tell the truth about what he has planned.

Seems to me that applies to both sides. ;D ;D ;D ;D

longweekend58 wrote on Jan 12^th, 2016 at 5:04pm:

John Smith wrote on Jan 12th, 2016 at 4:58pm: longweekend58 wrote on Jan 12th, 2016 at 4:54pm: John Smith wrote on Jan 12th, 2016 at 4:28pm: politicians should debate more often ... not the pre-prepared questions with the scripted answers, but the scruff of the neck debating whereby they explain their positions. I can see why the libs don't like debates ..... slogans don't work so well when you have to support your arguments opposition leaders love debates. that have everything to gain and little to lose. no one is listening to shorten on any topic and so he wants a platform to speak from. turnball wont give it to him. of course not, especially since he'll either have to lie or tell the truth about what he has planned. Either option won't suit Turncoat just yet. He doesn't want to lie because he saw what happened to Abbott when the truth came out, and he doesn't want to tell the truth because he's not ready to announce his plans yet. If he can get away without saying anything, he will. you really dont understand pretty much anything, do you.  if not for SOB I'd have to say you are the stupidest dullest poster we have seen here.

I understand what an idiot you are ... what exactly did you disagree with dopey?

and lets see if you can concentrate on the topic at hand. If you think I care about your insults you're on drugs ... since you prove time and time again that you get everything wrong, I certainly hope you think I'm  'dull' ... the odds are waaayyyyy in my favour that you're wrong about that too. ;D ;D

lee wrote on Jan 12^th, 2016 at 5:04pm:

John Smith wrote on Jan 12th, 2016 at 4:58pm: of course not, especially since he'll either have to lie or tell the truth about what he has planned. Seems to me that applies to both sides. ;D ;D ;D ;D

yes, except like longie said, Shorten needs a platform to speak from. Shorten has nothing to lose by being honest.

John Smith wrote on Jan 12^th, 2016 at 5:11pm:

lee wrote on Jan 12th, 2016 at 5:04pm: John Smith wrote on Jan 12th, 2016 at 4:58pm: of course not, especially since he'll either have to lie or tell the truth about what he has planned. Seems to me that applies to both sides. ;D ;D ;D ;D yes, except like longie said, Shorten needs a platform to speak from. Shorten has nothing to lose by being honest.

A) he'd have to get advice on how to even BE honest
B) his policies include a new carbon tax and a return to the boat people.


yeah, that's gonna work.

longweekend58 wrote on Jan 12^th, 2016 at 6:36pm:

John Smith wrote on Jan 12th, 2016 at 5:11pm: lee wrote on Jan 12th, 2016 at 5:04pm: John Smith wrote on Jan 12th, 2016 at 4:58pm: of course not, especially since he'll either have to lie or tell the truth about what he has planned. Seems to me that applies to both sides. ;D ;D ;D ;D yes, except like longie said, Shorten needs a platform to speak from. Shorten has nothing to lose by being honest. A) he'd have to get advice on how to even BE honest B) his policies include a new carbon tax and a return to the boat people. yeah, that's gonna work.

Labor have no policy to introduce any carbon tax.

I am sure you have been told that before ?

longweekend58 wrote on Jan 12^th, 2016 at 6:36pm:

John Smith wrote on Jan 12th, 2016 at 5:11pm: lee wrote on Jan 12th, 2016 at 5:04pm: John Smith wrote on Jan 12th, 2016 at 4:58pm: of course not, especially since he'll either have to lie or tell the truth about what he has planned. Seems to me that applies to both sides. ;D ;D ;D ;D yes, except like longie said, Shorten needs a platform to speak from. Shorten has nothing to lose by being honest. A) he'd have to get advice on how to even BE honest B) his policies include a new carbon tax and a return to the boat people. yeah, that's gonna work.

he'd have to get advice on how to even BE honest

Abbott had all the help in the world and it had no impact at all.

longweekend58 wrote on Jan 12^th, 2016 at 6:36pm:

John Smith wrote on Jan 12th, 2016 at 5:11pm: lee wrote on Jan 12th, 2016 at 5:04pm: John Smith wrote on Jan 12th, 2016 at 4:58pm: of course not, especially since he'll either have to lie or tell the truth about what he has planned. Seems to me that applies to both sides. ;D ;D ;D ;D yes, except like longie said, Shorten needs a platform to speak from. Shorten has nothing to lose by being honest. A) he'd have to get advice on how to even BE honest B) his policies include a new carbon tax and a return to the boat people. yeah, that's gonna work.

except that if that were even half true Turncoat would jump on the opportunity

John Smith wrote on Jan 12^th, 2016 at 5:11pm:

yes, except like longie said, Shorten needs a platform to speak from.

A gallows is a platform.

Astonishing we have the right wing dicky whackers on here panning carbon pricing but entertaining a GST rise that undeniably will cost the consumer more than $550 a year. Where has the confected outrage gone righties?

Its time wrote on Jan 12^th, 2016 at 11:08pm:

Astonishing we have the right wing dicky whackers on here panning carbon pricing but entertaining a GST rise that undeniably will cost the consumer more than $550 a year. Where has the confected outrage gone righties?

where do you get these figures from????.....

btw.. GST doesnt affect our exports.. or trading powers.....this country cannot be and will never be self sufficient..

instead of worrying about what we pay..

I thinkw e need to worry more about what they spend it on..

the waste in this country is beyond disgraceful.

cods wrote on Jan 13^th, 2016 at 6:02am:

Its time wrote on Jan 12th, 2016 at 11:08pm: Astonishing we have the right wing dicky whackers on here panning carbon pricing but entertaining a GST rise that undeniably will cost the consumer more than $550 a year. Where has the confected outrage gone righties? where do you get these figures from????..... btw.. GST doesnt affect our exports.. or trading powers.....this country cannot be and will never be self sufficient.. instead of worrying about what we pay.. I thinkw e need to worry more about what they spend it on.. the waste in this country is beyond disgraceful.

The link between exports and self sufficiency is a bit tenuous I would think. Isn't that more about imports which are exposed to a GST ? I would think that items leaving the country have little impact on us being self sufficient.

With every man and his dog screaming to put GST onto low priced imported goods I would see no reason to continue GST free exports. Why should Australian companies making goods or providing services for foreigners get to claim GST exemptions on what they produce but to then have a final product exported GST free.

where do you get these figures from????.....

The $550 was the figure that Abbott falsely claimed people would be better off as a result of removing the fixed carbon price.

The fact is that the GST increase will cost people immensely more than the carbon price did, The proposed raise to the GST would be the single biggest tax increase in Australia's history but a big margin.

Dnarever wrote on Jan 12^th, 2016 at 6:39pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Jan 12th, 2016 at 6:36pm: John Smith wrote on Jan 12th, 2016 at 5:11pm: lee wrote on Jan 12th, 2016 at 5:04pm: John Smith wrote on Jan 12th, 2016 at 4:58pm: of course not, especially since he'll either have to lie or tell the truth about what he has planned. Seems to me that applies to both sides. ;D ;D ;D ;D yes, except like longie said, Shorten needs a platform to speak from. Shorten has nothing to lose by being honest. A) he'd have to get advice on how to even BE honest B) his policies include a new carbon tax and a return to the boat people. yeah, that's gonna work. Labor have no policy to introduce any carbon tax. I am sure you have been told that before ?

you certainly have. but you are both wrong and an inveterate liar.

the alp plans to reintroduce a carbon tax.

Not a carbon tax but an ETS. Hopefully the Greens will FINALLY let an ETS be introduced.

longweekend58 wrote on Jan 13^th, 2016 at 12:53pm:

Dnarever wrote on Jan 12th, 2016 at 6:39pm: longweekend58 wrote on Jan 12th, 2016 at 6:36pm: John Smith wrote on Jan 12th, 2016 at 5:11pm: lee wrote on Jan 12th, 2016 at 5:04pm: John Smith wrote on Jan 12th, 2016 at 4:58pm: of course not, especially since he'll either have to lie or tell the truth about what he has planned. Seems to me that applies to both sides. ;D ;D ;D ;D yes, except like longie said, Shorten needs a platform to speak from. Shorten has nothing to lose by being honest. A) he'd have to get advice on how to even BE honest B) his policies include a new carbon tax and a return to the boat people. yeah, that's gonna work. Labor have no policy to introduce any carbon tax. I am sure you have been told that before ? you certainly have. but you are both wrong and an inveterate liar. the alp plans to reintroduce a carbon tax.

why do you lie so much? Unable to argue your point based on facts? There is no plan to bring back the carbon tax. If you want to claim that there is, prove it.

John Smith wrote on Jan 13^th, 2016 at 1:31pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Jan 13th, 2016 at 12:53pm: Dnarever wrote on Jan 12th, 2016 at 6:39pm: longweekend58 wrote on Jan 12th, 2016 at 6:36pm: John Smith wrote on Jan 12th, 2016 at 5:11pm: lee wrote on Jan 12th, 2016 at 5:04pm: John Smith wrote on Jan 12th, 2016 at 4:58pm: of course not, especially since he'll either have to lie or tell the truth about what he has planned. Seems to me that applies to both sides. ;D ;D ;D ;D yes, except like longie said, Shorten needs a platform to speak from. Shorten has nothing to lose by being honest. A) he'd have to get advice on how to even BE honest B) his policies include a new carbon tax and a return to the boat people. yeah, that's gonna work. Labor have no policy to introduce any carbon tax. I am sure you have been told that before ? you certainly have. but you are both wrong and an inveterate liar. the alp plans to reintroduce a carbon tax. why do you lie so much? Unable to argue your point based on facts? There is no plan to bring back the carbon tax. If you want to claim that there is, prove it.

you mean the way you ask for proof from the ACCC regarding thg $550 carbon tax claim?  By providing rock-solid proof only for you to reject it and then claim it was nevr given in the first place?  why would anyone bother trying to prove anything to a fool like you?  it is mission impossible.  that would require you to have both integrity and intelligence and your are a dud on both counts.

longweekend58 wrote on Jan 13^th, 2016 at 4:50pm:

you mean the way you ask for proof from the ACCC regarding thg $550 carbon tax claim?  By providing rock-solid proof only for you to reject it and then claim it was nevr given in the first place?  why would anyone bother trying to prove anything to a fool like you?  it is mission impossible.  that would require you to have both integrity and intelligence and your are a dud on both counts.

I didn't reject the ACCC's finding. I showed how it differed from the original promise of saving $550 in electricity. You either are sooo stupid that subtle differences escape you (highly probable), or you are trying to pretend its the same thing because you won't get paid if you criticise the libs.

John Smith wrote on Jan 13^th, 2016 at 5:33pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Jan 13th, 2016 at 4:50pm: you mean the way you ask for proof from the ACCC regarding thg $550 carbon tax claim?  By providing rock-solid proof only for you to reject it and then claim it was nevr given in the first place?  why would anyone bother trying to prove anything to a fool like you?  it is mission impossible.  that would require you to have both integrity and intelligence and your are a dud on both counts. I didn't reject the ACCC's finding. I showed how it differed from the original promise of saving $550 in electricity. You either are sooo stupid that subtle differences escape you (highly probable), or you are trying to pretend its the same thing because you won't get paid if you criticise the libs.

that's todays excuse. in a few weeks someone will bring it up and you will deny all knowledge.  it is possible you brain forgets things, but more likely you are just a scumbag who lacks the integrity you need.

longweekend58 wrote on Jan 13^th, 2016 at 6:38pm:

John Smith wrote on Jan 13th, 2016 at 5:33pm: longweekend58 wrote on Jan 13th, 2016 at 4:50pm: you mean the way you ask for proof from the ACCC regarding thg $550 carbon tax claim?  By providing rock-solid proof only for you to reject it and then claim it was nevr given in the first place?  why would anyone bother trying to prove anything to a fool like you?  it is mission impossible.  that would require you to have both integrity and intelligence and your are a dud on both counts. I didn't reject the ACCC's finding. I showed how it differed from the original promise of saving $550 in electricity. You either are sooo stupid that subtle differences escape you (highly probable), or you are trying to pretend its the same thing because you won't get paid if you criticise the libs. that's todays excuse. in a few weeks someone will bring it up and you will deny all knowledge.  it is possible you brain forgets things, but more likely you are just a scumbag who lacks the integrity you need.

todays excuse? ;D ;D My argument has never changed dopey. I challenge you to find a 'different' excuse ...



I'm betting this is where you run and hide behind Marias skirt again ;D ;D ;D

longweekend58 wrote on Jan 13^th, 2016 at 12:53pm:

Dnarever wrote on Jan 12th, 2016 at 6:39pm: longweekend58 wrote on Jan 12th, 2016 at 6:36pm: John Smith wrote on Jan 12th, 2016 at 5:11pm: lee wrote on Jan 12th, 2016 at 5:04pm: John Smith wrote on Jan 12th, 2016 at 4:58pm: of course not, especially since he'll either have to lie or tell the truth about what he has planned. Seems to me that applies to both sides. ;D ;D ;D ;D yes, except like longie said, Shorten needs a platform to speak from. Shorten has nothing to lose by being honest. A) he'd have to get advice on how to even BE honest B) his policies include a new carbon tax and a return to the boat people. yeah, that's gonna work. Labor have no policy to introduce any carbon tax. I am sure you have been told that before ? you certainly have. but you are both wrong and an inveterate liar. the alp plans to reintroduce a carbon tax.

My understanding is that Labor have a carbon trading scheme planned which is not a tax ?

Do you have any link to this tax you claim ?

Not everyone who knows more than you is lying.

It's called 'newspeak', Longie. GST-goods and services tax. Carbon tax?  Emissions Trading Scheme!
:o :o :o :o :o

Dnarever wrote on Jan 14^th, 2016 at 6:40am:

longweekend58 wrote on Jan 13th, 2016 at 12:53pm: Dnarever wrote on Jan 12th, 2016 at 6:39pm: longweekend58 wrote on Jan 12th, 2016 at 6:36pm: John Smith wrote on Jan 12th, 2016 at 5:11pm: lee wrote on Jan 12th, 2016 at 5:04pm: John Smith wrote on Jan 12th, 2016 at 4:58pm: of course not, especially since he'll either have to lie or tell the truth about what he has planned. Seems to me that applies to both sides. ;D ;D ;D ;D yes, except like longie said, Shorten needs a platform to speak from. Shorten has nothing to lose by being honest. A) he'd have to get advice on how to even BE honest B) his policies include a new carbon tax and a return to the boat people. yeah, that's gonna work. Labor have no policy to introduce any carbon tax. I am sure you have been told that before ? you certainly have. but you are both wrong and an inveterate liar. the alp plans to reintroduce a carbon tax. My understanding is that Labor have a carbon trading scheme planned which is not a tax ? Do you have any link to this tax you claim ? Not everyone who knows more than you is lying.

so it is the carbon tax under a different name.  yeah, that'll fly well!!!

I cant wait until the next election campaign with labor promoting the New Carbon Tax and more boat people along with opposing any measures to reign in union corruption.  todays 53/47 polls will seem like the good ol times when it hits 57/43, libs way

Labor are not promoting boat people surely?
Are they crazy?

Shorten falls under the heading of "Nevergunnabe"

longweekend58 wrote on Jan 14^th, 2016 at 8:47am:

so it is the carbon tax under a different name.

you've been told a hundred times ... its an ETS. You seem to struggle with basic comprehension

And haven’t ETS' been the subject of massive frauds?

lee wrote on Jan 14^th, 2016 at 2:10pm:

And haven’t ETS' been the subject of massive frauds?

what do you call paying DA to companies to 'encourage' work they did last year? All schemes are subject to fraudulent behavior. We cannot fraud proof anything. If there is a way for someone to gain from it when they shouldn't, someone will find it.

longweekend58 wrote on Jan 14^th, 2016 at 8:47am:

so it is the carbon tax under a different name.  yeah, that'll fly well!!! I cant wait until the next election campaign with labor promoting the New Carbon Tax and more boat people along with opposing any measures to reign in union corruption.  todays 53/47 polls will seem like the good ol times when it hits 57/43, libs way

For someone who pretends to be intelligent you try your best to show the opposite.

As you are well aware the fixed carbon price could legitimately be labelled a tax on a technicality even though it acted nothing like any tax.

A carbon trading scheme is simply not a tax in any way. Calling carbon trading a tax is incorrect.

You talk about honesty but you seem to refrain from it at every opportunity yourself.

lee wrote on Jan 14^th, 2016 at 2:10pm:

And haven’t ETS' been the subject of massive frauds?

Yes they have been - the best method was the fixed carbon price but the Liberals found too much political gain from sinking it, we now go to a second best option if we are lucky.

John Smith wrote on Jan 14^th, 2016 at 2:24pm:

All schemes are subject to fraudulent behavior. We cannot fraud proof anything. If there is a way for someone to gain from it when they shouldn't, someone will find it.

So what size fraud do you find agreeable?

Edit: what is DA?

lee wrote on Jan 14^th, 2016 at 4:57pm:

John Smith wrote on Jan 14th, 2016 at 2:24pm: All schemes are subject to fraudulent behavior. We cannot fraud proof anything. If there is a way for someone to gain from it when they shouldn't, someone will find it. So what size fraud do you find agreeable? Edit: what is DA?

You know Direct Action the pretence that Abbott was left with once he had ruled everything else out.

That is the one where instead of charging the biggest Carbon emitters he pays them money out of our tax dollars.

Funny enough if they stop emitting Carbon Dioxide we stop paying them.

Dnarever wrote on Jan 14^th, 2016 at 3:43pm:

lee wrote on Jan 14th, 2016 at 2:10pm: And haven’t ETS' been the subject of massive frauds? Yes they have been - the best method was the fixed carbon price but the Liberals found too much political gain from sinking it, we now go to a second best option if we are lucky.

Calm ya tits, we got FA sorry DA in its place , all those big polluters bidding for taxpayers dollars to reduce pollution , clean air in no time , bless those libs  :)

Its time wrote on Jan 14^th, 2016 at 7:42pm:

all those big polluters bidding for taxpayers dollars to reduce pollution , clean air in no time , bless those libs

Clean air? So this dirty air, what is the chemical composition?

lee wrote on Jan 14^th, 2016 at 4:57pm:

John Smith wrote on Jan 14th, 2016 at 2:24pm: All schemes are subject to fraudulent behavior. We cannot fraud proof anything. If there is a way for someone to gain from it when they shouldn't, someone will find it. So what size fraud do you find agreeable? as little as possible Edit: what is DA? Direct Action

Direct Action is to cost 1.55 billion over 3 years.

Frauds and scams in Europe -

'In 2009 Europol informed that 90% market volume of emissions traded in some countries could be result of tax fraud, more specifically missing trader fraud, costing governments more than 5 billion euros.'

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_Emission_Trading_Scheme

Be careful what you wish for.

lee wrote on Jan 14^th, 2016 at 8:33pm:

Direct Action is to cost 1.55 billion over 3 years. Frauds and scams in Europe - 'In 2009 Europol informed that 90% market volume of emissions traded in some countries could be result of tax fraud, more specifically missing trader fraud, costing governments more than 5 billion euros.' https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_Emission_Trading_Scheme Be careful what you wish for.

The so-called Direct Action plan is worse ... about 75% of the projects that were funded were existing projects, not new ones. That's about $1.5 billion of wasted money.

Labor's carbon Tax would funnel all the money overseas

GreenLoser didn't even know this and his party led the charge for a carbon tax

So I don't expect any Laborites to understand it either

Dsmithy70 wrote on Jan 12^th, 2016 at 1:19pm:

Shorten & Labor will continue to flail about on a road to nowhere. Exactly how & why do you think this is a positive for our country?

Turnbull is due to give another motivational speech.

Exactly how & why do you think this is a positive for our country?


Labor are not:

trying to increase the GST

Ripping the gutz out of the healthcare system

Ripping the gutz out of education

Stopping superannuation guarantee increases

Labor :

Have Proven to be the better economic managers

Will take action of climate change

Will not continue the downward spiral in Health and education

Will remove the worst Government Australia has seen to date.

Liberals:

That is right the current government have been incompetent and badly need to be replaced. Over 2 years in office and they have achieved nothing except for running up the debt and deficit through uncontrolled spending.

Liberal government achievements = 0.

A record that we can not afford to reward.

Maqqa wrote on Jan 15^th, 2016 at 1:23am:

Labor's carbon Tax would funnel all the money overseas GreenLoser didn't even know this and his party led the charge for a carbon tax So I don't expect any Laborites to understand it either

Labor's carbon Tax would funnel all the money overseas


The Liberals removed the fixed carbon price there is no carbon tax.

You seem to understand little yourself ?

Dnarever wrote on Jan 15^th, 2016 at 6:08am:

Maqqa wrote on Jan 15th, 2016 at 1:23am: Labor's carbon Tax would funnel all the money overseas GreenLoser didn't even know this and his party led the charge for a carbon tax So I don't expect any Laborites to understand it either Labor's carbon Tax would funnel all the money overseas The Liberals removed the fixed carbon price there is no carbon tax. You seem to understand little yourself ?

FFS dna

I was contrasting between the ALP and LIB strategy

Leftard wants to criticise Direct Action but they don't even understand their own policies

Maqqa wrote on Jan 15^th, 2016 at 7:52am:

Dnarever wrote on Jan 15th, 2016 at 6:08am: Maqqa wrote on Jan 15th, 2016 at 1:23am: Labor's carbon Tax would funnel all the money overseas GreenLoser didn't even know this and his party led the charge for a carbon tax So I don't expect any Laborites to understand it either Labor's carbon Tax would funnel all the money overseas The Liberals removed the fixed carbon price there is no carbon tax. You seem to understand little yourself ? for goodness sake dna I was contrasting between the ALP and LIB strategy Leftard wants to criticise Direct Action but they don't even understand their own policies

It isn't labor criticising DA - it's everyone except a few Liberals, most Libs are even embarrassed by it.

Labor's carbon Tax would funnel all the money overseas


Making untrue statements will not clear up any confusion in this area. There is no plan for any carbon tax.

You can talk about "embarrassed"

I am talking about understanding the policy

Those who are embarrassed do not understand what it does and why it was implemented

Stupid Rudd

Maqqa wrote on Jan 15^th, 2016 at 7:58am:

You can talk about "embarrassed" I am talking about understanding the policy Those who are embarrassed do not understand what it does and why it was implemented Stupid Rudd

I doubt that anyone knows what you are talking about.

Fact is that the Liberals managed to replace a reasonably good policy with a dreadful one.

Dnarever wrote on Jan 15^th, 2016 at 8:01am:

Maqqa wrote on Jan 15th, 2016 at 7:58am: You can talk about "embarrassed" I am talking about understanding the policy Those who are embarrassed do not understand what it does and why it was implemented Stupid Rudd I doubt that anyone knows what you are talking about. Fact is that the Liberals managed to replace a reasonably good policy with a dreadful one.

B#LLSH!t on the ALP policy

Of course leftards don't knows what I am talking about because they are too stupid.

If you don't understand it - then ask rather than dance around the edge

Leftards voted for Rudd that started us down this slippery slope

gumpy tried this song and dance once before .... he's just upset because no one took his bait then and his argument failed. ;D ;D ;D

F.F.S Jack Sheeeet

I am not upset

It's fun telling leftards how stupid they are

Educating leftards is an act of mercy from me to you

Maqqa wrote on Jan 15^th, 2016 at 8:09am:

F.F.S Jack Sheeeet I am not upset It's fun telling leftards how stupid they are Educating leftards is an act of mercy from me to you

you should perform an act of mercy on yourself an educate yourself first.

Maqqa wrote on Jan 15^th, 2016 at 8:09am:

F.F.S Jack Sheeeet I am not upset It's fun telling leftards how stupid they are Educating leftards is an act of mercy from me to you

Not many want to learn stupidity ?

John Smith wrote on Jan 14^th, 2016 at 2:03pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Jan 14th, 2016 at 8:47am: so it is the carbon tax under a different name. you've been told a hundred times ... its an ETS. You seem to struggle with basic comprehension

a variable price CARBON TAX.  and you should know that the Libs will tell everyone that it is a CARBON TAX.

it will cost labor 2-3% of the vote, perhaps more.

Dnarever wrote on Jan 14^th, 2016 at 3:39pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Jan 14th, 2016 at 8:47am: so it is the carbon tax under a different name.  yeah, that'll fly well!!! I cant wait until the next election campaign with labor promoting the New Carbon Tax and more boat people along with opposing any measures to reign in union corruption.  todays 53/47 polls will seem like the good ol times when it hits 57/43, libs way For someone who pretends to be intelligent you try your best to show the opposite. As you are well aware the fixed carbon price could legitimately be labelled a tax on a technicality even though it acted nothing like any tax. A carbon trading scheme is simply not a tax in any way. Calling carbon trading a tax is incorrect. You talk about honesty but you seem to refrain from it at every opportunity yourself.

if it is a govt-run measure that will increase prices... it is a tax. 

it doesnt matter what YOU think. it will be called a tax by the Libs and Labor will be unable to refute it, both because it is something that will cost people extra and also that Labor is an apalling campaigner.

Dnarever wrote on Jan 15^th, 2016 at 7:55am:

Maqqa wrote on Jan 15th, 2016 at 7:52am: Dnarever wrote on Jan 15th, 2016 at 6:08am: Maqqa wrote on Jan 15th, 2016 at 1:23am: Labor's carbon Tax would funnel all the money overseas GreenLoser didn't even know this and his party led the charge for a carbon tax So I don't expect any Laborites to understand it either Labor's carbon Tax would funnel all the money overseas The Liberals removed the fixed carbon price there is no carbon tax. You seem to understand little yourself ? for goodness sake dna I was contrasting between the ALP and LIB strategy Leftard wants to criticise Direct Action but they don't even understand their own policies It isn't labor criticising DA - it's everyone except a few Liberals, most Libs are even embarrassed by it. Labor's carbon Tax would funnel all the money overseas Making untrue statements will not clear up any confusion in this area. There is no plan for any carbon tax.

we heard Gillard say that. how precisely do you think anyone will beleive Labor on this question ever again?

Dnarever wrote on Jan 12^th, 2016 at 2:48pm:

cods wrote on Jan 12th, 2016 at 1:37pm: I would like to see that DEBATE..... not them talking about themselves... economists asking them questions.??.. I would like to see that... I cant see any other way for GST to go.. to be honest....an increase has beena  long time coming...we have been pretty lucky.. what with our mining boom and all..but the good times are over... and we need to suck it up and get on with it..stop whinging...its almost 16 years...... and apart from the few who lives were altered beyond repair when it first came in....we are so used to it.. no one knows how much they pay each week in GST ::) ::) ::) we have to grow up.. and realise its the best and most equal way . no one wants to pay TAX....but then no one wants to go without either... all it amounts to... is let the user pay????... if I dont want to  pay gst on a chicken I buy a raw one and cook it myself..... if I cant be bothered I buy a cooked one and pay the service charge.... its all about choices..... come on Australians wake up.....we pay bugger all by some countries standards.. its almost 16 years the Libs have been pushing it since 14 years and even 16 is nothing for a tax that we were assured would be sufficient to drive the next century. Remember the mechanism behind this tax was meant to make it impossible for it to be increased at any time. That was the commitment from the Liberals. Abbott / Turnbull are the very next Liberal government and they are pissing on Howards guarantee.

Howard knew he'd be long gone before a push to increase the GST hence his lies it was just about impossible to do and assurances not to worry.
Howard's word was as good as his integrity,non existent.
I don't have a problem lifting the GST as long as they make the tax free threshold about forty grand and double government benefits otherwise they are just going to put old age pensioners on the street fighting the dogs and cats for scraps.

skippy. wrote on Jan 15^th, 2016 at 5:51pm:

Dnarever wrote on Jan 12th, 2016 at 2:48pm: cods wrote on Jan 12th, 2016 at 1:37pm: I would like to see that DEBATE..... not them talking about themselves... economists asking them questions.??.. I would like to see that... I cant see any other way for GST to go.. to be honest....an increase has beena  long time coming...we have been pretty lucky.. what with our mining boom and all..but the good times are over... and we need to suck it up and get on with it..stop whinging...its almost 16 years...... and apart from the few who lives were altered beyond repair when it first came in....we are so used to it.. no one knows how much they pay each week in GST ::) ::) ::) we have to grow up.. and realise its the best and most equal way . no one wants to pay TAX....but then no one wants to go without either... all it amounts to... is let the user pay????... if I dont want to  pay gst on a chicken I buy a raw one and cook it myself..... if I cant be bothered I buy a cooked one and pay the service charge.... its all about choices..... come on Australians wake up.....we pay bugger all by some countries standards.. its almost 16 years the Libs have been pushing it since 14 years and even 16 is nothing for a tax that we were assured would be sufficient to drive the next century. Remember the mechanism behind this tax was meant to make it impossible for it to be increased at any time. That was the commitment from the Liberals. Abbott / Turnbull are the very next Liberal government and they are pissing on Howards guarantee. Howard knew he'd be long gone before a push to increase the GST hence his lies it was just about impossible to do and assurances not to worry. Howard's word was as good as his integrity,non existent. I don't have a problem lifting the GST as long as they make the tax free threshold about forty grand and double government benefits otherwise they are just going to put old age pensioners on the street fighting the dogs and cats for scraps.

no one expected Rudd and Gillard to nearly double govt spending in just 6 years.  if everyone had know that, Howard would have won in 2007 and todays deficit would be small and the debt well under $100B.

longweekend58 wrote on Jan 15^th, 2016 at 9:07am:

how precisely do you think anyone will beleive Labor on this question ever again?

the same way you expect anyone will believe the libs when they claim no cuts to medicare, health, education, ABC or pretty much anything else . :D :D :D