This man raped a 14 year old Iraqi girl and then shot and burned alive her and her family. His reason: he didn't believe Iraqis were human. His colleagues and his officers tried to cover it up.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1340207/I-didnt-think-Iraqis-humans-says-U-S-soldier-raped-14-year-old-girl-killing-her-family.html


Quote:

'I didn't think of Iraqis as humans,' says U.S. soldier who raped 14-year-old girl before killing her and her family. Steven Green, pictured in April 2009, is serving five life sentences for rape and murder in Iraq. He has launched appeal but doesn't have 'much hope' of ever being freed. An Iraq War veteran serving five life terms for raping and killing a 14-year-old Iraqi girl and killing her parents and sister says he didn't think of Iraqi civilians as humans after being exposed to extreme warzone violence. Steven Green, a former 101st Airborne soldier, in his first interview since the 2006 killings, claimed that his crimes were fuelled in part by experiences in Iraq's violent 'Triangle of Death' where two of his sergeants were gunned down. He also cited a lack of leadership and help from the Army. 'I was crazy,' Green said in the exclusive telephone interview from federal prison in Tucson, Arizona. 'I was just all the way out there. I didn't think I was going to live.' Green talked about what led up to the March 12, 2006, attack on a family near Mahmoudiya, Iraq, that left him serving five consecutive life sentences. The former soldier, who apologised at sentencing for his crimes, said he wasn't seeking sympathy nor trying to justify his actions - killings prosecutors described at trial in 2009 as one of the worst crimes of the Iraq war. But Green said people should know his actions were a consequence of his circumstances in a war zone. 'If I hadn't ever been in Iraq, I wouldn't be in the kind of trouble I'm in now,' Green said. 'I'm not happy about that.' Green was discharged with a 'personality disorder' before federal charges were brought against him. Prosecutors sought a death sentence, but a federal jury in Paducah, Kentucky, opted for five life sentences on charges including the rape and murder of 14-year-old Abeer Qassim Al-Janabi and the shooting deaths of her mother, father and younger sister. Four other soldiers were convicted in military court for various roles in the attack. Three remain in military prison. Green is challenging the Military Extraterritorial Jurisdiction Act, which allows the federal government to charge an American in civilian court for alleged crimes committed overseas. He was the first former soldier convicted under the statute. The U.S. 6th Circuit Court of Appeals has scheduled arguments for January 21. Green is challenging the constitutionality of that law, saying it gives the executive branch too much leeway over whom to prosecute. Prosecutors say the law should be upheld. 'I've got some hope, but I'm not delusional about it,' said Green, now 25. 'I hope it works. But, whenever they give you multiple life sentences, they're not planning on letting you out.' Green didn't testify at trial. During sentencing, he apologized and said he expects to face 'God's justice' when he dies. Abeer Qassim al-Janabi, Green's 14-year-old victim, whose parents and sister were also murdered in the attack. Green said deaths of two of his colleagues had 'messed him up real bad' Abeer Qassim al-Janabi, Green's 14-year-old victim, whose parents and sister were also murdered in the attack. Green said deaths of two of his colleagues had 'messed him up real bad' A 19-year-old high school dropout from Midland, Texas, Green joined the Army after obtaining his high school equivalency diploma from a correspondence school. He said signing up was easy, born of a sense of duty to defend his country and the opportunities that offered. 'I thought I'd be neglecting my duty if I didn't,' Green said. 'You've got a career, you've got a job. It gives you opportunities to do things with your life.' The military placed Green with the Fort Campbell-based 101st Airborne. Upon arriving in Iraq, Green said, his training to kill, the rampant violence and derogatory comments by other soldiers against Iraqis served to dehumanise that country's civilian population. A turning point came on December 10, 2005, Green said, when a previously friendly Iraqi approached a traffic checkpoint and opened fire. The shots killed Staff Sgt. Travis L. Nelson, 41, instantly. Sgt. Kenith Casica, 32, was hit in the throat. Casica died as soldiers raced him aboard a Humvee to a field hospital. Green said those deaths 'messed me up real bad.' The deaths intensified Green's feelings toward all Iraqis, whom soldiers often called by a derogatory term. 'There's not a word that would describe how much I hated these people,' Green said. 'I wasn't thinking these people were humans.'

It's a problem with war - de-humanising the enemy is part of the deal because without that people find it very hard to kill.  It's almost as if a 'higher calling' is needed to persuade your average teenager to actually kill someone, and it is part of military training.  Also part is the current weapons training, which relies on a lot of video and non-lethal training, and this dulls the line between killing a human being and an object.

The Iraqis in Desert Storm I were overwhelmed by the propensity of the Western forces to actually go for the kill, something they themselves were almost ritual about in many cases, like 'counting coup' for the Sioux.  Not culturally acclimated to high-tech war with a specific mission focus.

Sadly, this seems to have overflowed with some..... but there have always been such in the military.  I believe I've cited for you before the case of a US 1st Cavalry captain in Vietnam convicted over the deaths of civilians when he was not actually present, on the basis that as the commander he held responsibility (Yamashita Decision), and his (commissioned) subordinate, who was directly responsible, being deemed to be 'mentally insufficient' (dumb) and being discharged from service rather than charged.

That is one reason why there was the move to trial in a civilian court.  The other is that the military justice system, without a finding of death, allows time off for good and soldierly behaviour while incarcerated, thus leading to drastically reduced time served for sentence in some cases.

Clayton Lonetree springs to mind...

Yes Grappler, Dave Grossman wrote an excellent book which goes some way towards explaining this.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_Killing

Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM wrote on Jan 4^th, 2016 at 11:26pm:

It's a problem with war - de-humanising the enemy is part of the deal because without that people find it very hard to kill.  It's almost as if a 'higher calling' is needed to persuade your average teenager to actually kill someone, and it is part of military training.  Also part is the current weapons training, which relies on a lot of video and non-lethal training, and this dulls the line between killing a human being and an object. The Iraqis in Desert Storm I were overwhelmed by the propensity of the Western forces to actually go for the kill, something they themselves were almost ritual about in many cases, like 'counting coup' for the Sioux.  Not culturally acclimated to high-tech war with a specific mission focus. Sadly, this seems to have overflowed with some..... but there have always been such in the military.  I believe I've cited for you before the case of a US 1st Cavalry captain in Vietnam convicted over the deaths of civilians when he was not actually present, on the basis that as the commander he held responsibility (Yamashita Decision), and his (commissioned) subordinate, who was directly responsible, being deemed to be 'mentally insufficient' (dumb) and being discharged from service rather than charged. That is one reason why there was the move to trial in a civilian court.  The other is that the military justice system, without a finding of death, allows time off for good and soldierly behaviour while incarcerated, thus leading to drastically reduced time served for sentence in some cases. Clayton Lonetree springs to mind...

You overlooked Lt. William Calley of USMC. Murdered 500 Vietnamese women, children and old people in a slaughter and never served a day in jail.

Commander Will Rogers of USA shot down Iranian airliner killing 290 people. He got a medal and no trial or court martial.

The fog of war, unless you have never been in  that position, who can judge. The military teaches you to dehumanise the enemy as Grappler said. Without this sort of training, wars can never be won.

ian wrote on Jan 4^th, 2016 at 11:47pm:

The fog of war, unless you have never been in  that position, who can judge. The military teaches you to dehumanise the enemy as Grappler said. Without this sort of training, wars can never be won.

Well the war wasn't won. Through the actions of the Coalition of the Willing, we have another generation drenched in hate.

We have ISIS.

ian wrote on Jan 4^th, 2016 at 11:40pm:

Yes Grappler, Dave Grossman wrote an excellent book which goes some way towards explaining this. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_Killing

SLAM Marshal found that at most, nine out of ten shots fired were aimed at enemy soldiers.

He wrote a great book about the D-Day US Airborne landings etc - Night Drop.  At one time, the US Military found that only the Airborne, Marines and Rangers were actually 'go-forward'.  Most GI Infantrymen just wanted to get home in one piece, and even the Airborne at Carentan Causeway were reluctant to go forward, though that was their first commitment to battle, and thus was understandable.  The few who did go across in the first stages did magnificently against the Germans.

http://www.historynet.com/battle-to-control-carentan-during-world-war-ii.htm

Footnote:- Longy, and others in various times and places, have accused me of Googling for all my info - thing is this - without knowing what I was looking for in advance - how would I know what to Google?

I had a critic suggest to me once that I read a book on Vietnam to get my info - wrong - I read the book to CONFIRM what I'd already said time and again - which it did 100%.

Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM wrote on Jan 4^th, 2016 at 11:26pm:

Sadly, this seems to have overflowed with some..... but there have always been such in the military.  I believe I've cited for you before the case of a US 1st Cavalry captain in Vietnam convicted over the deaths of civilians when he was not actually present, on the basis that as the commander he held responsibility (Yamashita Decision), and his (commissioned) subordinate, who was directly responsible, being deemed to be 'mentally insufficient' (dumb) and being discharged from service rather than charged.

PTSD - an absolutely inevitable consequence of sending young men and women off to experience the horrors of war. Not all soldiers become psychotic like this - most just suffer silently and drive their loved ones away. But all will be permanently damaged to varying degrees. I started a thread a while back arguing that since we are willing send these young men and women to certain and permanent psychological trauma, we should be willing to pay a fair price for that in terms of gold star treatment and support for returned servicemen.

I couldnt accuse you of googling this Grappler. Most people would be lost if this was even mentioned. Also, its good that someone else here has the life experience to get this.

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 4^th, 2016 at 11:56pm:

Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM wrote on Jan 4th, 2016 at 11:26pm: Sadly, this seems to have overflowed with some..... but there have always been such in the military.  I believe I've cited for you before the case of a US 1st Cavalry captain in Vietnam convicted over the deaths of civilians when he was not actually present, on the basis that as the commander he held responsibility (Yamashita Decision), and his (commissioned) subordinate, who was directly responsible, being deemed to be 'mentally insufficient' (dumb) and being discharged from service rather than charged. PTSD - an absolutely inevitable consequence of sending young men and women off to experience the horrors of war. Not all soldiers become psychotic like this - most just suffer silently and drive their loved ones away. But all will be permanently damaged to varying degrees. I started a thread a while back arguing that since we are willing send these young men and women to certain and permanent psychological trauma, we should be willing to pay a fair price for that in terms of gold star treatment and support for returned servicemen.

Abso-smacking-lutely.

MORE attention should be paid to their psychological state after the fact than before it.

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 4^th, 2016 at 11:56pm:

Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM wrote on Jan 4th, 2016 at 11:26pm: Sadly, this seems to have overflowed with some..... but there have always been such in the military.  I believe I've cited for you before the case of a US 1st Cavalry captain in Vietnam convicted over the deaths of civilians when he was not actually present, on the basis that as the commander he held responsibility (Yamashita Decision), and his (commissioned) subordinate, who was directly responsible, being deemed to be 'mentally insufficient' (dumb) and being discharged from service rather than charged. PTSD - an absolutely inevitable consequence of sending young men and women off to experience the horrors of war. Not all soldiers become psychotic like this - most just suffer silently and drive their loved ones away. But all will be permanently damaged to varying degrees. I started a thread a while back arguing that since we are willing send these young men and women to certain and permanent psychological trauma, we should be willing to pay a fair price for that in terms of gold star treatment and support for returned servicemen.

Steven Green the person in the OP has been diagnosed with a personality disorder, this wasnt caused by his training or exposure to battle. His actions had nothing to do with PTSD. And PTSD does not cause psychosis.

ian wrote on Jan 4^th, 2016 at 11:59pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 4th, 2016 at 11:56pm: Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM wrote on Jan 4th, 2016 at 11:26pm: Sadly, this seems to have overflowed with some..... but there have always been such in the military.  I believe I've cited for you before the case of a US 1st Cavalry captain in Vietnam convicted over the deaths of civilians when he was not actually present, on the basis that as the commander he held responsibility (Yamashita Decision), and his (commissioned) subordinate, who was directly responsible, being deemed to be 'mentally insufficient' (dumb) and being discharged from service rather than charged. PTSD - an absolutely inevitable consequence of sending young men and women off to experience the horrors of war. Not all soldiers become psychotic like this - most just suffer silently and drive their loved ones away. But all will be permanently damaged to varying degrees. I started a thread a while back arguing that since we are willing send these young men and women to certain and permanent psychological trauma, we should be willing to pay a fair price for that in terms of gold star treatment and support for returned servicemen. Steven Green the person in the OP has been diagnosed with a personality disorder, this wasnt caused by his training or exposure to battle. His actions had nothing to do with PTSD. And PTSD does not cause psychosis.

No but it can cause intense hallucinations or flashbacks that can be akin to psychosis.

ian wrote on Jan 4^th, 2016 at 11:59pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 4th, 2016 at 11:56pm: Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM wrote on Jan 4th, 2016 at 11:26pm: Sadly, this seems to have overflowed with some..... but there have always been such in the military.  I believe I've cited for you before the case of a US 1st Cavalry captain in Vietnam convicted over the deaths of civilians when he was not actually present, on the basis that as the commander he held responsibility (Yamashita Decision), and his (commissioned) subordinate, who was directly responsible, being deemed to be 'mentally insufficient' (dumb) and being discharged from service rather than charged. PTSD - an absolutely inevitable consequence of sending young men and women off to experience the horrors of war. Not all soldiers become psychotic like this - most just suffer silently and drive their loved ones away. But all will be permanently damaged to varying degrees. I started a thread a while back arguing that since we are willing send these young men and women to certain and permanent psychological trauma, we should be willing to pay a fair price for that in terms of gold star treatment and support for returned servicemen. Steven Green the person in the OP has been diagnosed with a personality disorder, this wasnt caused by his training or exposure to battle. His actions had nothing to do with PTSD. And PTSD does not cause psychosis.

No doubt - but the question is would he have raped a girl and murdered her entire family if he wasn't sent to war? Seems unlikely given his own testimony that he considered the inhabitants of the country that he was fighting in to not be human.

mothra wrote on Jan 5^th, 2016 at 12:01am:

ian wrote on Jan 4th, 2016 at 11:59pm: polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 4th, 2016 at 11:56pm: Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM wrote on Jan 4th, 2016 at 11:26pm: Sadly, this seems to have overflowed with some..... but there have always been such in the military.  I believe I've cited for you before the case of a US 1st Cavalry captain in Vietnam convicted over the deaths of civilians when he was not actually present, on the basis that as the commander he held responsibility (Yamashita Decision), and his (commissioned) subordinate, who was directly responsible, being deemed to be 'mentally insufficient' (dumb) and being discharged from service rather than charged. PTSD - an absolutely inevitable consequence of sending young men and women off to experience the horrors of war. Not all soldiers become psychotic like this - most just suffer silently and drive their loved ones away. But all will be permanently damaged to varying degrees. I started a thread a while back arguing that since we are willing send these young men and women to certain and permanent psychological trauma, we should be willing to pay a fair price for that in terms of gold star treatment and support for returned servicemen. Steven Green the person in the OP has been diagnosed with a personality disorder, this wasnt caused by his training or exposure to battle. His actions had nothing to do with PTSD. And PTSD does not cause psychosis. No but it can cause intense hallucinations or flashbacks that can be akin to psychosis.

Flashbacks yes, these are not akin to psychosis.

ian wrote on Jan 5^th, 2016 at 12:05am:

mothra wrote on Jan 5th, 2016 at 12:01am: ian wrote on Jan 4th, 2016 at 11:59pm: polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 4th, 2016 at 11:56pm: Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM wrote on Jan 4th, 2016 at 11:26pm: Sadly, this seems to have overflowed with some..... but there have always been such in the military.  I believe I've cited for you before the case of a US 1st Cavalry captain in Vietnam convicted over the deaths of civilians when he was not actually present, on the basis that as the commander he held responsibility (Yamashita Decision), and his (commissioned) subordinate, who was directly responsible, being deemed to be 'mentally insufficient' (dumb) and being discharged from service rather than charged. PTSD - an absolutely inevitable consequence of sending young men and women off to experience the horrors of war. Not all soldiers become psychotic like this - most just suffer silently and drive their loved ones away. But all will be permanently damaged to varying degrees. I started a thread a while back arguing that since we are willing send these young men and women to certain and permanent psychological trauma, we should be willing to pay a fair price for that in terms of gold star treatment and support for returned servicemen. Steven Green the person in the OP has been diagnosed with a personality disorder, this wasnt caused by his training or exposure to battle. His actions had nothing to do with PTSD. And PTSD does not cause psychosis. No but it can cause intense hallucinations or flashbacks that can be akin to psychosis. Flashbacks yes, these are not akin to psychosis.

Yes. They can be.

PTSD and psychotic Symptoms can co-occur. In clinical terms, PTSD is described as consisting of three clusters of symptoms: re-experiencing symptoms, avoidance symptoms, and hyperarousal symptoms. However, some mental health professionals believe that the experience of psychotic symptoms should be considered as an addition to that list, given that they commonly occur among people with PTSD.

Psychotic Symptoms

Before the relationship between PTSD and psychotic symptoms is discussed, it is first important to describe what would be considered a psychotic symptom.

Psychotic symptoms can be divided into two groups: positive symptoms and negative symptoms.

Positive symptoms are characterized by the presence of unusual feelings, thoughts, or behaviors. Positive symptoms include such experiences as hallucinations or delusions. A hallucination could be hearing voices that no one else can hear, or seeing things that are not really there.

Delusions are ideas that a person believes are true despite the fact that they may be unlikely or odd. For example, people with delusions may believe that the CIA is spying on them, or that aliens are controlling their behaviors or thoughts.

Negative symptoms are characterized by the absence of experience. For example, a person with negative symptoms may not be emotionally expressive. She may have difficulty speaking, may not say anything for days on end, or be unable to persist at simple tasks or activities, such as getting dressed in the morning.

These positive and negative symptoms are often associated with the diagnosis of schizophrenia; however, they are also seen in other disorders, such as PTSD.

Psychotic Symptoms in PTSD

Researchers at the University of Manitoba, Columbia University, and the University of Regina examined the data on 5,877 people from across the United States in order to determine the rates with which people with PTSD experience different psychotic symptoms.

They found that, among people with PTSD, the experience of positive psychotic symptoms was most common.

Approximately 52% of people who reported having PTSD at some point in their lifetime also reported experiencing a positive psychotic symptom.

The most common positive symptoms were:

Believing that other people were spying on or following them (27.5%)

Seeing something that others could not see (19.8%)

Having unusual feelings inside or outside of their bodies, such as feeling as though they were being touched when no one was really there (16.8%)

Believing that they could hear what someone else was thinking (12.4%)

Being bothered by strange smells that no one else could smell (10.3%)

Believing that their behaviors and thoughts were bring controlled by some power or force (10%)
The researchers also found evidence that the more PTSD symptoms a person was experiencing, the greater the likelihood that they would also experience positive psychotic symptoms.

To take their study a step further, the researchers also looked at what traumatic events were most commonly related to the experience of psychotic symptoms. They found the following to be most strongly connected:

Being involved in a fire, flood, or natural disaster

Seeing someone get seriously injured or killed

Experiencing tremendous shock as a result of a traumatic event that happened to a close relative, friend, or significant other

http://ptsd.about.com/od/relatedconditions/a/Psychosis.htm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 4^th, 2016 at 11:56pm:

Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM wrote on Jan 4th, 2016 at 11:26pm: Sadly, this seems to have overflowed with some..... but there have always been such in the military.  I believe I've cited for you before the case of a US 1st Cavalry captain in Vietnam convicted over the deaths of civilians when he was not actually present, on the basis that as the commander he held responsibility (Yamashita Decision), and his (commissioned) subordinate, who was directly responsible, being deemed to be 'mentally insufficient' (dumb) and being discharged from service rather than charged. PTSD - an absolutely inevitable consequence of sending young men and women off to experience the horrors of war. Not all soldiers become psychotic like this - most just suffer silently and drive their loved ones away. But all will be permanently damaged to varying degrees. I started a thread a while back arguing that since we are willing send these young men and women to certain and permanent psychological trauma, we should be willing to pay a fair price for that in terms of gold star treatment and support for returned servicemen.

PTSD is not psychosis - it is described as the reaction of a normal human being to abnormal circumstances, and I've shared PTSD 'wards' with cops and rape victims, as well as Diggers.

I'm totally sane and absolutely certified so - the most normal person subjected to extremes (I don't see them as extreme, which is why I 'failed' every PTSD 'exam' and made no progress, yet am a gentle and caring human being) - but let me tell you that at times..... things get rough.

There are many myths surrounding PTSD, including that those who suffer it are crazy - they are not.

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 5^th, 2016 at 12:03am:

ian wrote on Jan 4th, 2016 at 11:59pm: polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 4th, 2016 at 11:56pm: Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM wrote on Jan 4th, 2016 at 11:26pm: Sadly, this seems to have overflowed with some..... but there have always been such in the military.  I believe I've cited for you before the case of a US 1st Cavalry captain in Vietnam convicted over the deaths of civilians when he was not actually present, on the basis that as the commander he held responsibility (Yamashita Decision), and his (commissioned) subordinate, who was directly responsible, being deemed to be 'mentally insufficient' (dumb) and being discharged from service rather than charged. PTSD - an absolutely inevitable consequence of sending young men and women off to experience the horrors of war. Not all soldiers become psychotic like this - most just suffer silently and drive their loved ones away. But all will be permanently damaged to varying degrees. I started a thread a while back arguing that since we are willing send these young men and women to certain and permanent psychological trauma, we should be willing to pay a fair price for that in terms of gold star treatment and support for returned servicemen. Steven Green the person in the OP has been diagnosed with a personality disorder, this wasnt caused by his training or exposure to battle. His actions had nothing to do with PTSD. And PTSD does not cause psychosis. No doubt - but the question is would he have raped a girl and murdered her entire family if he wasn't sent to war? Seems unlikely given his own testimony that he considered the inhabitants of the country that he was fighting in to not be human.

he has a personality disorder, this is not an illness but a condition. people with these types of ASPD's always twist the story to suit. Who knows what could have triggered a killing spree. he was probably itching to kill a few people and used the fact his mate was killed as an excuse.

Why is the military accepting people with PD anyway?

What kind of PD does he have? It's a big net.

I dont know about your study mothra, but its a load of horse puckey.

ian wrote on Jan 4^th, 2016 at 11:56pm:

I couldnt accuse you of googling this Grappler. Most people would be lost if this was even mentioned. Also, its good that someone else here has the life experience to get this.

Oh - and Cole was cited amongst the Airborne as being the only recipient of the Medal they were glad to see killed in Holland. He was 'gung ho' and stupid, they say.

It's not all beer and skittles, and what you read is not always what you should hear.  The Sergeant who went in first and ended up 'last man standing' in his small group should have got the Medal.... not Cole.

ian wrote on Jan 5^th, 2016 at 12:11am:

I dont know about your study mothra, but its a load of horse puckey.

No. It's not. Hallucinations and flashbacks can present as psychotic type behaviour.

Think of the not few returned service folk who have come home and beaten the crap out of or killing theor [partners and children. They refer to being out of their minds when they did it.

mothra wrote on Jan 5^th, 2016 at 12:08am:

PTSD and psychotic Symptoms can co-occur. In clinical terms, PTSD is described as consisting of three clusters of symptoms: re-experiencing symptoms, avoidance symptoms, and hyperarousal symptoms. However, some mental health professionals believe that the experience of psychotic symptoms should be considered as an addition to that list, given that they commonly occur among people with PTSD. Psychotic Symptoms Before the relationship between PTSD and psychotic symptoms is discussed, it is first important to describe what would be considered a psychotic symptom. Psychotic symptoms can be divided into two groups: positive symptoms and negative symptoms. Positive symptoms are characterized by the presence of unusual feelings, thoughts, or behaviors. Positive symptoms include such experiences as hallucinations or delusions. A hallucination could be hearing voices that no one else can hear, or seeing things that are not really there. Delusions are ideas that a person believes are true despite the fact that they may be unlikely or odd. For example, people with delusions may believe that the CIA is spying on them, or that aliens are controlling their behaviors or thoughts. Negative symptoms are characterized by the absence of experience. For example, a person with negative symptoms may not be emotionally expressive. She may have difficulty speaking, may not say anything for days on end, or be unable to persist at simple tasks or activities, such as getting dressed in the morning. These positive and negative symptoms are often associated with the diagnosis of schizophrenia; however, they are also seen in other disorders, such as PTSD. Psychotic Symptoms in PTSD Researchers at the University of Manitoba, Columbia University, and the University of Regina examined the data on 5,877 people from across the United States in order to determine the rates with which people with PTSD experience different psychotic symptoms. They found that, among people with PTSD, the experience of positive psychotic symptoms was most common. Approximately 52% of people who reported having PTSD at some point in their lifetime also reported experiencing a positive psychotic symptom. The most common positive symptoms were: Believing that other people were spying on or following them (27.5%) Seeing something that others could not see (19.8%) Having unusual feelings inside or outside of their bodies, such as feeling as though they were being touched when no one was really there (16.8%) Believing that they could hear what someone else was thinking (12.4%) Being bothered by strange smells that no one else could smell (10.3%) Believing that their behaviors and thoughts were bring controlled by some power or force (10%) The researchers also found evidence that the more PTSD symptoms a person was experiencing, the greater the likelihood that they would also experience positive psychotic symptoms. To take their study a step further, the researchers also looked at what traumatic events were most commonly related to the experience of psychotic symptoms. They found the following to be most strongly connected: Being involved in a fire, flood, or natural disaster Seeing someone get seriously injured or killed Experiencing tremendous shock as a result of a traumatic event that happened to a close relative, friend, or significant other http://ptsd.about.com/od/relatedconditions/a/Psychosis.htm

Don't pay to much attention to academic crap... come sit with the Troopers for a while..... they'll tell you one thing... it's all bulldust for someone's profit, but if they have to play the game to get benefits, they will... and God Speed to them.

I attended a course run by a doctor who didn't believe in stress illnesses - but he was happy to accept the funding.... money speaks all languages...................

Psychotic Symptoms in Posttraumatic Stress Disorder


Abstract
Positive psychotic symptoms may be relatively prevalent in posttraumatic stress disorder (PTSD). PTSD with secondary psychotic features (PTSD-SP) is an emerging diagnostic entity. Phenomenological, epidemiological, and biological studies support the potential validity of PTSD-SP. Clinicians should inquire about positive symptoms of psychosis not only during an initial diagnostic interview but also during follow-up sessions because many patients are embarrassed about these symptoms as well as about other facets and consequences of the traumatic experience and may need some time in a trusting relationship to disclose these symptoms. More studies are needed to investigate, in particular, the longitudinal course and treatment of psychotic features. Genetic studies may shed light on differentiation of PTSD-SP as well as other PTSD comorbidities. The DBH candidate gene in particular may help shed light on this biological differentiation. Treatment of psychotic symptoms associated with PTSD may involve a combination of an antidepressant plus an antipsychotic agent, analogous to the treatment of major depression with psychotic features. The purpose of this article is to introduce the clinician to the potential for psychotic symptoms to occur as a comorbidity of chronic PTSD. This article will review a definition of psychotic symptoms in the context of PTSD and discuss the relevant literature exploring whether the presence of these symptoms might represent a unique subtype of the disorder. The development of a definition for a psychotic subtype of PTSD might facilitate research of treatment approaches. Regardless, the practicing clinician should be aware of the potential for psychotic symptoms to be part of the complex clinical picture of PTSD.



http://focus.psychiatryonline.org/doi/abs/10.1176/foc.9.3.foc278

The thing about academics Grap is that note things that are observable.

ian wrote on Jan 5^th, 2016 at 12:09am:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 5th, 2016 at 12:03am: ian wrote on Jan 4th, 2016 at 11:59pm: polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 4th, 2016 at 11:56pm: Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM wrote on Jan 4th, 2016 at 11:26pm: Sadly, this seems to have overflowed with some..... but there have always been such in the military.  I believe I've cited for you before the case of a US 1st Cavalry captain in Vietnam convicted over the deaths of civilians when he was not actually present, on the basis that as the commander he held responsibility (Yamashita Decision), and his (commissioned) subordinate, who was directly responsible, being deemed to be 'mentally insufficient' (dumb) and being discharged from service rather than charged. PTSD - an absolutely inevitable consequence of sending young men and women off to experience the horrors of war. Not all soldiers become psychotic like this - most just suffer silently and drive their loved ones away. But all will be permanently damaged to varying degrees. I started a thread a while back arguing that since we are willing send these young men and women to certain and permanent psychological trauma, we should be willing to pay a fair price for that in terms of gold star treatment and support for returned servicemen. Steven Green the person in the OP has been diagnosed with a personality disorder, this wasnt caused by his training or exposure to battle. His actions had nothing to do with PTSD. And PTSD does not cause psychosis. No doubt - but the question is would he have raped a girl and murdered her entire family if he wasn't sent to war? Seems unlikely given his own testimony that he considered the inhabitants of the country that he was fighting in to not be human. he has a personality disorder, this is not an illness but a condition. people with these types of ASPD's always twist the story to suit. Who knows what could have triggered a killing spree. he was probably itching to kill a few people and used the fact his mate was killed as an excuse.

There are a lot of people with personality disorders - many times more than the number of people who rape and murder entire families. If nothing else, the law of averages tells us that this guy probably wouldn't have gone on a rape and murder spree if he wasn't sent into a warzone. Besides that though we also have his own testimony about the war causing this horrific act - for what its worth - but its still more evidence than there is to support the view that he would have engaged in rape and murder if he didn't go to Iraq.

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 5^th, 2016 at 12:25am:

[ There are a lot of people with personality disorders - many times more than the number of people who rape and murder entire families. If nothing else, the law of averages tells us that this guy probably wouldn't have gone on a rape and murder spree if he wasn't sent into a warzone. Besides that though we also have his own testimony about the war causing this horrific act - for what its worth - but its still more evidence than there is to support the view that he would have engaged in rape and murder if he didn't go to Iraq.

Who knows? Im not presuming one way or the other. I do know people with ASPDS lie. And they lie very well. 

British soldiers could face prosecution for crimes committed during Iraq conflict, investigators confirm
Jonathan Owen Saturday 2 January 2016

British soldiers who have served in Iraq may face prosecution for crimes including murder, the head of the unit established by the Ministry of Defence to investigate allegations of torture and unlawful killing in the war-torn country has said.

In his first major interview, Mark Warwick, a former police detective in charge of the Iraq Historic Allegations Team (Ihat), told The Independent that he believed there would be sufficient evidence to justify criminal charges.

“There are serious allegations that we are investigating across the whole range of Ihat investigations, which incorporates homicide, where I feel there is significant evidence to be obtained to put a strong case before the Service Prosecuting Authority  to prosecute and charge,” he said.

Ihat’s caseload of allegations of ill-treatment or unlawful killing by British forces in Iraq between 2003 and 2009 has risen tenfold since it was established. In 2010, it was dealing with cases involving 152 victims. It is now dealing with more than 1,500 victims, according to Ihat’s latest quarterly update. Of these, 280 are victims of alleged unlawful killing by British forces in Iraq, but more than 200 of these cases have yet to be investigated, with just 25 under investigation.

Of 1,235 alleged cases of ill-treatment, including accusations of rape and torture, only 45 are under investigation.

Ihat’s initial target for completion of its investigations was 2016 but this will not be met. And, although the unit is funded until 2019, its work may not be finished by then.



http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/british-soldiers-could-face-prosecution-for-crimes-committed-during-iraq-conflict-investigators-a6793271.html

Your studies are horse puckey Mothra.

ian wrote on Jan 5^th, 2016 at 12:34am:

Your studies are horse puckey Mothra.

No. They're not.

Hvae you ever experienced a flashback? Hallucination? Dissociation?

The comorbidity of psychotic symptoms and posttraumatic stress disorder: evidence for a specifier in DSM-5.
Bosson JV1, Reuther ET, Cohen AS.


Abstract
The comorbidity of posttraumatic stress disorder (PTSD) and psychotic symptoms is higher than what might be expected based on the prevalence of either disorder alone. Furthermore, the presence of psychotic symptoms is evident in PTSD patients who do not otherwise meet criteria for a psychotic spectrum disorder. The current paper discusses three existing hypotheses regarding the relation of PTSD and psychosis and presents a series of case studies that illustrates this phenomenon across a diverse group of patients and scenarios. Clinical implications in light of these case studies are offered, including the suggestion that the next edition of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders includes a specifier of PTSD with psychotic features.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21983499

mothra wrote on Jan 5^th, 2016 at 12:36am:

ian wrote on Jan 5th, 2016 at 12:34am: Your studies are horse puckey Mothra. No. They're not. Hvae you ever experienced a flashback? Hallucination? Dissociation?

yes.

Your studies are horse puckey.

ian wrote on Jan 5^th, 2016 at 12:40am:

mothra wrote on Jan 5th, 2016 at 12:36am: ian wrote on Jan 5th, 2016 at 12:34am: Your studies are horse puckey Mothra. No. They're not. Hvae you ever experienced a flashback? Hallucination? Dissociation? yes.

Then you should know you are not always in your right mind when experiencing those things.

Furthermore, it is evident that some people with PTSD experience psychotic symptoms, but not all.

If you were not psychotic, it is not to say that it is not a notable variable.

ian wrote on Jan 5^th, 2016 at 12:40am:

Your studies are horse puckey.

It's in the DSM-5.

You're kidding yourself.

mothra wrote on Jan 5^th, 2016 at 12:43am:

ian wrote on Jan 5th, 2016 at 12:40am: Your studies are horse puckey. It's in the DSM-5. You're kidding yourself.

i deal with people with psychosis day in and day out, your studies are horse puckey.

ian wrote on Jan 5^th, 2016 at 12:46am:

mothra wrote on Jan 5th, 2016 at 12:43am: ian wrote on Jan 5th, 2016 at 12:40am: Your studies are horse puckey. It's in the DSM-5. You're kidding yourself. i deal with people with psychosis day in and day out, your studies are horse puckey.

So do i. Are you calling the DSM-5 "horse puckey"?

mothra wrote on Jan 5^th, 2016 at 12:42am:

ian wrote on Jan 5th, 2016 at 12:40am: mothra wrote on Jan 5th, 2016 at 12:36am: ian wrote on Jan 5th, 2016 at 12:34am: Your studies are horse puckey Mothra. No. They're not. Hvae you ever experienced a flashback? Hallucination? Dissociation? yes. Then you should know you are not always in your right mind when experiencing those things. Furthermore, it is evident that some people with PTSD experience psychotic symptoms, but not all. If you were not psychotic, it is not to say that it is not a notable variable.

This just shows how poorly you understand these things Mothra. Flashbacks have nothing to do with a psychotic state, neither does dissociation. Hallucinations are not commonly experienced by those with PTSD. You are completely out of your depth.

ian wrote on Jan 5^th, 2016 at 12:49am:

mothra wrote on Jan 5th, 2016 at 12:42am: ian wrote on Jan 5th, 2016 at 12:40am: mothra wrote on Jan 5th, 2016 at 12:36am: ian wrote on Jan 5th, 2016 at 12:34am: Your studies are horse puckey Mothra. No. They're not. Hvae you ever experienced a flashback? Hallucination? Dissociation? yes. Then you should know you are not always in your right mind when experiencing those things. Furthermore, it is evident that some people with PTSD experience psychotic symptoms, but not all. If you were not psychotic, it is not to say that it is not a notable variable. This just shows how poorly you understand these things Mothra. Flashbacks have nothing to do with a psychotic state, neither does dissociation. Hallucinations are not commonly experienced by those with PTSD. You are completely out of your depth.

Are you calling the DSM-5 "horse puckey"?

mothra wrote on Jan 5^th, 2016 at 12:46am:

[ So do i. Are you calling the DSM-5 "horse puckey"?

yes. Not forgetting this is the same DSM which called homosexuality a mental illness. Do you think homos are mentally ill Mothra?

ian wrote on Jan 5^th, 2016 at 12:51am:

mothra wrote on Jan 5th, 2016 at 12:46am: [ So do i. Are you calling the DSM-5 "horse puckey"? yes. Not forgetting this is the same DSM which called homosexuality a mental illness. Do you think homos are mentally ill Mothra?

That would be a 'did'. It does not currently do so.

I'm talking about the DSM-5 that notes, as does the main stream of psychiatrists and psychologists, that psychosis is co-morbid with PTSD on occasion.

Furthermore, flashbacks, dissociative states and hallucinations, all hallmarks of PTSD may present as psychosis like,

And i am far from out of my depth. I could write a thesis on PTSD.

mothra wrote on Jan 5^th, 2016 at 12:18am:

The thing about academics Grap is that note things that are observable.

Yes - but only within the parameters that the observer knows... observer bias.  I can assure you that the most common refrain from those 'on the inside' is that nobody 'outside' has any idea.

I call it 'through the stargate' - once you've been there you can never come back and no-one outside has any idea - they can only surmise.

ADDS:-  That is an issue raised in The Terminator about traveling back through time and how do they return to the future - with Kyle - Nobody Comes Back.  For those 'on the inside' that phrase had/has a special meaning......  once you have that past, you can never return to your future.   Grok on that, Grasshopper.

A very common phrase I hear from Veterans is "You're talking Sh!t!".  What that means to them is that no matter how you think what you think - you will never know what they know.

Best to leave the studies to the books.... and the men to themselves.  The worst thing you can do is seek to 'set them right' when they will treat you with contempt as an outsider and use you to get what they need - which is some semblance of a normal life, part of which is enough to live on.

NO Digger I know actually thinks an academic study of his 'problems' means one piece of horse doover.... it's just words and has no relationship to the reality they live in and with.

I don't mean that to be mean to you and your academia - but it is the truth.  A cousin runs/ran a program for Vets at Concord - the Vets I know from there think it's a hoot, but she thinks she's an expert.... and knows it all.  She never knew anything of substance and never will, but will retire well, unlike here 'clients', who in some case.... many cases.. will die too young from many causes.

In'shallah!

mothra wrote on Jan 5^th, 2016 at 12:55am:

And i am far from out of my depth. I could write a thesis on PTSD.

I merely write fiction books... and some auto-bio..... not interested in academic attainment......

Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM wrote on Jan 5^th, 2016 at 1:21am:

mothra wrote on Jan 5th, 2016 at 12:18am: The thing about academics Grap is that note things that are observable. Yes - but only within the parameters that the observer knows... observer bias.  I can assure you that the most common refrain from those 'on the inside' is that nobody 'outside' has any idea. I call it 'through the stargate' - once you've been there you can never come back and no-one outside has any idea - they can only surmise. A very common phrase I hear from Veterans is "You're talking Sh!t!".  What that means to them is that no matter how you think what you think - you will never know what they know. Best to leave the studies to the books.... and the men to themselves.  The worst thing you can do is seek to 'set them right' when they will treat you with contempt as an outsider and use you to get what they need - which is some semblance of a normal life, part of which is enough to live on. NO Digger I know actually thinks an academic study of his 'problems' means one piece of horse doover.... it's just words and has no relationship to the reality they live in and with. I don't mean that to be mean to you and your academia - but it is the truth.  A cousin runs/ran a program for Vets at Concord - the Vets I know from there think it's a hoot, but she thinks she's an expert.... and knows it all.

Do you not think that is taken into account by academia?

You're tarnishing the entire discipline because of the lack of sincere empathy of those often associated.

If it weren't for academia, we would have no diagnosis of PTSD at all. We would have no understanding of what people who have been severely traumatised go through and how holistically it affects them.

Don't dismiss academia findings out of hand because you have come across people with more book learning than empathy.

We know, through academia, that anti-depressants don't really work on people with PTSD, despite them presenting often as hugely depressed. THe same for anti-anxiety medication.

We know, through academia, that there are different types of PTSD that have distinct patterns,

Don't blame academia because there is no cure for PTSD. It can only be managed.

Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM wrote on Jan 5^th, 2016 at 1:23am:

mothra wrote on Jan 5th, 2016 at 12:55am: And i am far from out of my depth. I could write a thesis on PTSD. I merely write fiction books... and some auto-bio..... not interested in academic attainment......

I can assure you, my thesis would be strongly based on personal experience.

I'm not tarnishing academia - academia is quite successful at doing that for itself......

Read my additions...

mothra wrote on Jan 5^th, 2016 at 1:32am:

Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM wrote on Jan 5th, 2016 at 1:23am: mothra wrote on Jan 5th, 2016 at 12:55am: And i am far from out of my depth. I could write a thesis on PTSD. I merely write fiction books... and some auto-bio..... not interested in academic attainment...... I can assure you, my thesis would be strongly based on personal experience.

I know that - but it will remain your experience and has no relation to the position of Veterans.... sorry to say that.  It really is a unique world, and the cop and the rape victim, for all their merit, were definitely not in the same mold as the Vets.

The difference, to me, was that the Veterans retained some character.... the cop I had to stop doing stuff to a bird that came for food.... the rape victim (with all my sympathy) played it to the hilt and was manipulative and 'me-me' to the max, while the Veterans just got on with the job..... and didn't have 'issues' with 'kicking the dog' or anything like that -as the civilian PTSD people do.

It IS a different world.  Stargate - and no unlicensed operator need apply.

Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM wrote on Jan 5^th, 2016 at 1:36am:

mothra wrote on Jan 5th, 2016 at 1:32am: Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM wrote on Jan 5th, 2016 at 1:23am: mothra wrote on Jan 5th, 2016 at 12:55am: And i am far from out of my depth. I could write a thesis on PTSD. I merely write fiction books... and some auto-bio..... not interested in academic attainment...... I can assure you, my thesis would be strongly based on personal experience. I know that - but it will remain your experience and has no relation to the position of Veterans.... sorry to say that.  It really is a unique world, and the cop and the rape victim, for all their merit, were definitely not in the same mold as the Vets. The difference, to me, was that the Veterans retained some character.... the cop I had to stop doing stuff to a bird that came for food.... the rape victim (with all my sympathy) played it to the hilt and was manipulative and 'me-me' to the max, while the Veterans just got on with the job..... and didn't have 'issues' with 'kicking the dog' or anything like that -as the civilian PTSD people do. It IS a different world.  Stargate - and no unlicensed operator need apply.

I'll just step over what i consider to be very offensive in that post and ask, do you not think that is recognised by academia?

The best 'management' I found for PTSD was to do what the Honoured Shrinks etc said NOT to do.... seek a quiet environment by 'going bush'.... lessee..... 2001 I set out..... I'd say 2015 I really surfaced as myself.... after a very long time of being off the planet ... 2001 was when I 'went bush' -... brace yourself for a long time getting your head right..... Luke...

Now I am almost serene, with the odd bad patch.... and all the people I know value and respect me as a humane and caring human being... including our local Aborigines who all hold me in respect.... because I do the same for them.....

To thine own self be true... for nobody else has the answer.....

Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM wrote on Jan 5^th, 2016 at 1:47am:

The best 'management' I found for PTSD was to do what the Honoured Shrinks etc said NOT to do.... seek a quiet environment by 'going bush'.... lessee..... 2001 I set out..... I'd say 2015 I really surfaced as myself.... after a very long time of being off the planet ... 2001 was when I 'went bush' -... brace yourself for a long time getting your head right..... Luke... Now I am almost serene, with the odd bad patch.... and all the people I know value and respect me as a humane and caring human being... including our local Aborigines who all hold me in respect.... because I do the same for them..... To thine own self be true... for nobody else has the answer.....

Well that's a bit tricky when you have children to raise and see educated, isn't it?

Not a one size fits all approach there Grap.

mothra wrote on Jan 5^th, 2016 at 1:40am:

Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM wrote on Jan 5th, 2016 at 1:36am: mothra wrote on Jan 5th, 2016 at 1:32am: Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM wrote on Jan 5th, 2016 at 1:23am: mothra wrote on Jan 5th, 2016 at 12:55am: And i am far from out of my depth. I could write a thesis on PTSD. I merely write fiction books... and some auto-bio..... not interested in academic attainment...... I can assure you, my thesis would be strongly based on personal experience. I know that - but it will remain your experience and has no relation to the position of Veterans.... sorry to say that.  It really is a unique world, and the cop and the rape victim, for all their merit, were definitely not in the same mold as the Vets. The difference, to me, was that the Veterans retained some character.... the cop I had to stop doing stuff to a bird that came for food.... the rape victim (with all my sympathy) played it to the hilt and was manipulative and 'me-me' to the max, while the Veterans just got on with the job..... and didn't have 'issues' with 'kicking the dog' or anything like that -as the civilian PTSD people do. It IS a different world.  Stargate - and no unlicensed operator need apply. I'll just step over what i consider to be very offensive in that post and ask, do you not think that is recognised by academia?

Don't engage me with these long arguments.

Academia can recognise what it likes - it is still not reality and is not the solution.  It is only academia, and I state categorically that it has no real conception of the position of the Veteran, and never will.

This is not a criticism of others with problems... it is a simple statement of reality from within that world.

mothra wrote on Jan 5^th, 2016 at 1:49am:

Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM wrote on Jan 5th, 2016 at 1:47am: The best 'management' I found for PTSD was to do what the Honoured Shrinks etc said NOT to do.... seek a quiet environment by 'going bush'.... lessee..... 2001 I set out..... I'd say 2015 I really surfaced as myself.... after a very long time of being off the planet ... 2001 was when I 'went bush' -... brace yourself for a long time getting your head right..... Luke... Now I am almost serene, with the odd bad patch.... and all the people I know value and respect me as a humane and caring human being... including our local Aborigines who all hold me in respect.... because I do the same for them..... To thine own self be true... for nobody else has the answer..... Well that's a bit tricky when you have children to raise and see educated, isn't it? Not a one size fits all approach there Grap.

I've stated before - my children were never abused, but were taught to defend self and to be simple good human beings, which is the best we can attain.

They both got scholarships to a private college.... I have no problem with them.....

It's all in how you handle things yourself - to that true inner being that you are be true.... and I can assure that all others will follow.  Some will hate - but that is not your problem.

Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM wrote on Jan 5^th, 2016 at 1:50am:

mothra wrote on Jan 5th, 2016 at 1:40am: Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM wrote on Jan 5th, 2016 at 1:36am: mothra wrote on Jan 5th, 2016 at 1:32am: Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM wrote on Jan 5th, 2016 at 1:23am: mothra wrote on Jan 5th, 2016 at 12:55am: And i am far from out of my depth. I could write a thesis on PTSD. I merely write fiction books... and some auto-bio..... not interested in academic attainment...... I can assure you, my thesis would be strongly based on personal experience. I know that - but it will remain your experience and has no relation to the position of Veterans.... sorry to say that.  It really is a unique world, and the cop and the rape victim, for all their merit, were definitely not in the same mold as the Vets. The difference, to me, was that the Veterans retained some character.... the cop I had to stop doing stuff to a bird that came for food.... the rape victim (with all my sympathy) played it to the hilt and was manipulative and 'me-me' to the max, while the Veterans just got on with the job..... and didn't have 'issues' with 'kicking the dog' or anything like that -as the civilian PTSD people do. It IS a different world.  Stargate - and no unlicensed operator need apply. I'll just step over what i consider to be very offensive in that post and ask, do you not think that is recognised by academia? Don't engage me with these long arguments. Academia can recognise what it likes - it is still not reality and is not the solution.  It is only academia, and I state categorically that it has no real conception of the position of the Veteran, and never will. This is not a criticism of others with problems... it is a simple statement of reality from within that world.

And if it weren't through collated information, we would have no understanding of what the the Veteren is going through.

Nor would we have any tools at our disposal for dealing with current service personnel.

Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM wrote on Jan 5^th, 2016 at 1:53am:

mothra wrote on Jan 5th, 2016 at 1:49am: Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM wrote on Jan 5th, 2016 at 1:47am: The best 'management' I found for PTSD was to do what the Honoured Shrinks etc said NOT to do.... seek a quiet environment by 'going bush'.... lessee..... 2001 I set out..... I'd say 2015 I really surfaced as myself.... after a very long time of being off the planet ... 2001 was when I 'went bush' -... brace yourself for a long time getting your head right..... Luke... Now I am almost serene, with the odd bad patch.... and all the people I know value and respect me as a humane and caring human being... including our local Aborigines who all hold me in respect.... because I do the same for them..... To thine own self be true... for nobody else has the answer..... Well that's a bit tricky when you have children to raise and see educated, isn't it? Not a one size fits all approach there Grap. I've stated before - my children were never abused, but were taught to defend self and to be simple good human beings, which is the best we can attain. They both got scholarships to a private college.... I have no problem with them..... It's all in how you handle things yourself - to that true inner being that you are be true.... and I can assure that all others will follow.  Some will hate - but that is not your problem.

Did i question that?

Were your children educated? Or did you take them bush?

Bed time....

Ever noticed how a slow thread creates dissension and argument - when an issue has already been addressed?

'Night!  And take good care... I value your views...

mothra wrote on Jan 5^th, 2016 at 1:54am:

Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM wrote on Jan 5th, 2016 at 1:53am: mothra wrote on Jan 5th, 2016 at 1:49am: Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM wrote on Jan 5th, 2016 at 1:47am: The best 'management' I found for PTSD was to do what the Honoured Shrinks etc said NOT to do.... seek a quiet environment by 'going bush'.... lessee..... 2001 I set out..... I'd say 2015 I really surfaced as myself.... after a very long time of being off the planet ... 2001 was when I 'went bush' -... brace yourself for a long time getting your head right..... Luke... Now I am almost serene, with the odd bad patch.... and all the people I know value and respect me as a humane and caring human being... including our local Aborigines who all hold me in respect.... because I do the same for them..... To thine own self be true... for nobody else has the answer..... Well that's a bit tricky when you have children to raise and see educated, isn't it? Not a one size fits all approach there Grap. I've stated before - my children were never abused, but were taught to defend self and to be simple good human beings, which is the best we can attain. They both got scholarships to a private college.... I have no problem with them..... It's all in how you handle things yourself - to that true inner being that you are be true.... and I can assure that all others will follow.  Some will hate - but that is not your problem. Did i question that? Were your children educated? Or did you take them bush?

No - they stayed with their mother while I did what she always complained about - fought the wars even when they were not right here and now..... train hard... fight easy.

I was never home.... but my kids always knew that they were honoured and protected and their dad gave them guidance and showed by example.

Both are gentle and genuine human beings and do no wrong....... no drugs, no violence, no criminality... no nothing.

Lead by example.

Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM wrote on Jan 5^th, 2016 at 1:58am:

mothra wrote on Jan 5th, 2016 at 1:54am: Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM wrote on Jan 5th, 2016 at 1:53am: mothra wrote on Jan 5th, 2016 at 1:49am: Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM wrote on Jan 5th, 2016 at 1:47am: The best 'management' I found for PTSD was to do what the Honoured Shrinks etc said NOT to do.... seek a quiet environment by 'going bush'.... lessee..... 2001 I set out..... I'd say 2015 I really surfaced as myself.... after a very long time of being off the planet ... 2001 was when I 'went bush' -... brace yourself for a long time getting your head right..... Luke... Now I am almost serene, with the odd bad patch.... and all the people I know value and respect me as a humane and caring human being... including our local Aborigines who all hold me in respect.... because I do the same for them..... To thine own self be true... for nobody else has the answer..... Well that's a bit tricky when you have children to raise and see educated, isn't it? Not a one size fits all approach there Grap. I've stated before - my children were never abused, but were taught to defend self and to be simple good human beings, which is the best we can attain. They both got scholarships to a private college.... I have no problem with them..... It's all in how you handle things yourself - to that true inner being that you are be true.... and I can assure that all others will follow.  Some will hate - but that is not your problem. Did i question that? Were your children educated? Or did you take them bush? No - they stayed with their mother while I did what she always complained about - fought the wars even when they were not right here and now..... train hard... fight easy. I was never home.... but my kids always knew that they were honoured and protected and their dad gave them guidance and showed by example. Both are gentle and genuine human beings and do no wrong....... no drugs, no violence, no criminality... no nothing. Lead by example.

Not everyone has the opportunity to go bush Grap.

mothra wrote on Jan 5^th, 2016 at 1:54am:

Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM wrote on Jan 5th, 2016 at 1:53am: mothra wrote on Jan 5th, 2016 at 1:49am: Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM wrote on Jan 5th, 2016 at 1:47am: The best 'management' I found for PTSD was to do what the Honoured Shrinks etc said NOT to do.... seek a quiet environment by 'going bush'.... lessee..... 2001 I set out..... I'd say 2015 I really surfaced as myself.... after a very long time of being off the planet ... 2001 was when I 'went bush' -... brace yourself for a long time getting your head right..... Luke... Now I am almost serene, with the odd bad patch.... and all the people I know value and respect me as a humane and caring human being... including our local Aborigines who all hold me in respect.... because I do the same for them..... To thine own self be true... for nobody else has the answer..... Well that's a bit tricky when you have children to raise and see educated, isn't it? Not a one size fits all approach there Grap. I've stated before - my children were never abused, but were taught to defend self and to be simple good human beings, which is the best we can attain. They both got scholarships to a private college.... I have no problem with them..... It's all in how you handle things yourself - to that true inner being that you are be true.... and I can assure that all others will follow.  Some will hate - but that is not your problem. Did i question that? Were your children educated? Or did you take them bush?

As usual - I went alone..... when I worked with two 2nd Commando officers they had no hesitation in sending me on one-man jobs....... they knew stuff that nobody knows....

No - I am not delusional.... 4RAR became 2nd Commando Regiment ..... I have both a (original) green beret and a sand one ...these two guys were 4RAR and knew me well.... I'm both a team player and a lone wolf... and am also a natural leader.... depending..

.. but I prefer to work alone sometimes.....

I'm long, lean and have a fine nose, tan well, and can pass for an Arab or Afghani.... even to the hand gestures.....

mothra wrote on Jan 5^th, 2016 at 12:55am:

And i am far from out of my depth. I could write a thesis on PTSD.

Not with your current lack of knowledge you couldnt. And  remember 1 thing, correlation is not causation. If you think really hard about this rather than take the view you already know you may reach the window of understanding to get why psychotic episodes may be correlated with PTSD in some sufferers. Or not, thats all Im going to give you on the subject.

ian wrote on Jan 6^th, 2016 at 10:00am:

mothra wrote on Jan 5th, 2016 at 12:55am: And i am far from out of my depth. I could write a thesis on PTSD. Not with your current lack of knowledge you couldnt. And  remember 1 thing, correlation is not causation. If you think really hard about this rather than take the view you already know you may reach the window of understanding to get why psychotic episodes may be correlated with PTSD in some sufferers. Or not, thats all Im going to give you on the subject.

You're ignoring the evidence Ian. I don't understand why. Maybe it's because you don't want to admit to being wrong?

There was no PTSD. The perpetrator was driven by lust and raped the poor girl before shooting and burning her and her whole family.

The US military tried to cover up the crime.