Liberal senator Zed Seselja breaks ranks to back cutting Sunday penalty rates

Quote:

A Government senator has broken ranks to push for Sunday penalty rates to be cut for hundreds of thousands of workers in the hospitality, retail and entertainment sectors. The Productivity Commission recommended the move in a report released this week. Employment Minister Michaelia Cash immediately distanced the Government from the finding, saying penalty rates were a matter for the Fair Work Commission. But ACT Liberal senator Zed Seselja said the Coalition should argue for a cut in Sunday penalty rates at next year's election. "The Productivity Commission has done some really important work here," Senator Seselja he said. "I think that we should be looking to put some policies to the next election which make incremental reforms in this area that go down the path the Productivity Commission is recommending. "In the hospitality industry, in particular, that's where I hear the most from business owners, that's where I think the reforms should be occurring, and I think that's the sort of thing that we could develop a policy to take to an election." The Productivity Commission recommended reducing Sunday loadings to Saturday levels across the sectors. For workers under the General Retail Industry Award, for example, double time on a Sunday would fall to 125 per cent of weekday pay for full-time or part-time workers. The commission did not propose changes to rates for nurses, teachers or emergency services workers. Senator Seselja said the level of change should be up for discussion, but it would be of "significant benefit" if it allowed more businesses to open on Sundays. "I think if you look at what the Productivity Commission's had to say in looking to ... just somewhat reduce the penalty rates on Sundays, I think that would be sensible," he said. "It will create jobs, it will give jobs to people who don't have jobs, or it will give more hours to those who are seeking it in an industry where we often see businesses not even bothering to open on a Sunday. "If it goes towards making it more likely businesses who want to open on Sunday can open on Sunday ... then I think there's some significant benefit in that." Anna McPhee from the Retail Council agreed, saying any move to reduce penalty rates would help businesses and consumers. "The way in which consumers are out there shopping has significantly changed and the retail sector really just wants to be able to deliver its products and goods and services in a convenient way to consumers and that means longer hours and seven days a week," she said. Don't be spooked by WorkChoices election, senator says The labour movement is demanding the Government rule out the penalty rate change, and is threatening the biggest campaign since the Howard government introduced its WorkChoices legislation during its final term. The industrial relations changes — along with the multi-million dollar union push against the overhaul — are seen as major reasons for the Coalition's 2007 election loss. "Those that work in the hospitality and retail sector rely on penalty rates just to make ends meet. Just to get by week to week," ACTU secretary Dave Oliver said earlier this week. But Senator Seselja said the Government should not be haunted by its most recent election loss. "I don't think we should always be spooked by the fact that we had a WorkChoices election in 2007," he said. "We're talking about a whole different set of policies. I think a more incremental approach to change [is needed] — I think you bring the community with you. "But of course it does take some courage to put these things to the people."

Welcome to the 21st century instead of being stuck in the 1960s.

We're on the long, glide-slope towards the American system in which tipping takes over from a decent wage from the employer.

If Penalty rates are important to you, then it looks like you cant vote liberal.   :(

wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 7:53am:

If Penalty rates are important to you, then it looks like you cant vote liberal.   :(

I NEVER vote for the major parties ...  :P


http://i473.photobucket.com/albums/rr96/Herbert_04/nazi%20smiley.jpg

Wage growth is already at its lowest in decades under the adults watch and now they want to cut take home pay further , bring it on .

Quote:

A Government senator has broken ranks to push for Sunday penalty rates to be cut for hundreds of thousands of workers in the hospitality, retail and entertainment sectors. ... ACT Liberal senator Zed Seselja said the Coalition should argue for a cut in Sunday penalty rates at next year's election.

Don't be fooled by a government nobody "breaking ranks" to argue for a controversial policy. He's not breaking ranks, he's been told to do this. If you've been watching the Abbott-Turnbull government, you already know how this game plays out.

[olist]

Someone outside of government proposes a controversial policy.

The government denies the policy.

A backbencher "breaks ranks" to argue for the policy.

The government sits back and waits for community responses.

If the community soundly rejects the policy, the government rules it out. Otherwise the government adopts it.[/olist]
This is how stalking horse politics works.

Notice the timing of this particular announcement, two days before Christmas. The government is probably going to point to the lack of community rejection as "justification" for adopting the policy.

Now here is a good idea.  Put the Saturday penalty rates up to the same as Sunday.  In other words double time on Saturdays, and then double again on Sundays.   :D   

Bam wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 8:11am:

Quote: A Government senator has broken ranks to push for Sunday penalty rates to be cut for hundreds of thousands of workers in the hospitality, retail and entertainment sectors. ... ACT Liberal senator Zed Seselja said the Coalition should argue for a cut in Sunday penalty rates at next year's election. Don't be fooled by a government nobody "breaking ranks" to argue for a controversial policy. He's not breaking ranks, he's been told to do this. If you've been watching the Abbott-Turnbull government, you already know how this game plays out. [olist] Someone outside of government proposes a controversial policy. The government denies the policy. A backbencher "breaks ranks" to argue for the policy. The government sits back and waits for community responses. If the community soundly rejects the policy, the government rules it out. Otherwise the government adopts it.[/olist] This is how stalking horse politics works. Notice the timing of this particular announcement, two days before Christmas. The government is probably going to point to the lack of community rejection as "justification" for adopting the policy.

Hope they do, look what happended in 07 after they tried it on  :)

Swagman wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 7:51am:

Welcome to the 21st century instead of being stuck in the 1960s.

Why not focus on other larger amounts of expenses, say, rents?

every time the libs get into govt. their number one concern seems to be cutting wages for workers, all the while giving themselves pay rises  ... whats wrong with these people?

Swagman wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 7:51am:

Welcome to the 21st century instead of being stuck in the 1960s.

Welcome to the 17th century......

Downe at Ye Olde Manore House Reading Of The Wille:-

".... and to my loyal servant of fifty nine years, Duncan The Blind and Handless and Bent, who has tied my shoe laces for hours at a time starting at 4 am in the dead of Winter, then pulled the plough to tend my fields until 8pm eache Nighte, in returne for food and keep,... I leave the sum of One Pennye......"

stunspore wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 8:19am:

Swagman wrote on Dec 23rd, 2015 at 7:51am: Welcome to the 21st century instead of being stuck in the 1960s. Why not focus on other larger amounts of expenses, say, rents?

What's it got to do with rents?

Would you like to pay double rent on Sundays?  Suggest it to your landlord.

Rents are set by the market.  Supply and demand.  The price of the majority of product is set by supply and demand.  Labour is a product.


Its time wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 7:54am:

Wage growth is already at its lowest in decades under the adults watch and now they want to cut take home pay further , bring it on .

Don't you see something wrong with wages growth when there is 6% unemployment?  :o

Same with penalty rates.  Why pay someone double when someone else without a job watches from the sidelines.  :(

Penalty rates should be market driven.

If you can't get individuals to work at un-standard hours then offer more pay to attract them, like wise if you have plenty of takers then pay them the same as any other day.....that is a market.

That is why skilled labour and professionally qualified people are paid more.  There is a higher demand for their skills.

If they weren't paid more, if they didn't get reward for their efforts, then there would be no incentive to work hard and gain the skills.

Swag, you live in an ideological world .... ideology doesn't work in the real world.

Nothing is market driven. Even the stuff you think is market driven is been controlled by the puppet masters. Removing penalty rates only gives the puppet masters more to play with.

stunspore wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 8:19am:

Swagman wrote on Dec 23rd, 2015 at 7:51am: Welcome to the 21st century instead of being stuck in the 1960s. Why not focus on other larger amounts of expenses, say, rents?

Good God, man - you don't expect rents and costs of living to come down to match reduced incomes, do you?

Time to March On Canberra.....

John Smith wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 8:42am:

Swag, you live in an ideological world .... ideology doesn't work in the real world. Nothing is market driven. Even the stuff you think is market driven is been controlled by the puppet masters. Removing penalty rates only gives the puppet masters more to play with.

Life is market driven Smithy unless your freedom to choose is taken away from you I guess.  Politics is market driven.  Justabout everything is market driven. 

It's not about "removing" penalty rates.  It's about paying them where they are warranted (where they are demanded).  It's about acknowledging that all workplaces (even those in the same industry) are different.  They operate in different localities each with their own little domestic market idiosyncrasies yet because of stupid outdated industrial relations regulations they are all tarred with the same IR brush.

Fixing IR into unmovable blocks means that business cannot move with the market punches and so lots get knocked out of the market because they can't compete and that is the root cause of unemployment and the underlying cause of the decline of Australian manufacturing since the 1960s.

Rents could be affected by government policy, just as wages are.  In this case, how about stamp duties (in case of property purchases) and negative gearing?

I have studied economics.  I wonder, what you consider to be "full employment"?  You do understand that unemployment is always going to be here at some sort of %.  At full employment that is a bad as that means that employers can't find workers - leading on to wage competition, inflation etc etc according to all economic textbooks.

Penalty rates are there as part of quality of life costs.  You're right in that weekends probably can be rationalised to probably "the same as any other day".  Most leisurely activities can be of similar nature. 

People must be sick of politicians being poorly informed and relying on untrue dishonest arguments.

Lord Herbert wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 7:54am:

wrote on Dec 23rd, 2015 at 7:53am: If Penalty rates are important to you, then it looks like you cant vote liberal.   :( I NEVER vote for the major parties ...  :P http://i473.photobucket.com/albums/rr96/Herbert_04/nazi%20smiley.jpg

That effectively means that you never oppose the worst policy.

Dnarever wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 9:30am:

People must be sick of politicians being poorly informed and relying on untrue dishonest arguments.

Yes I am sick of Labor & Green politicians being poorly informed and making untrue and irrational arguments.

Though your statement doesn't indicate it, I assume you would also hate lib politicians doing the same?  Or are you have double standards/hypocrite?

Any particular reason why you choose lab/green in your statement?  A personal bias of some sort?

In any case, RBA and other independent authorities do state that current IR is not as rigid and is actually quite responsive to labour demands.

It's a pity that non-tangible assets aren't recognised, such as weekend socialising, church, etc.  I would accept a 24/7 economy or at least a 7 day economy if the distribution of working hours is properly distributed over the 7 days instead of clustering over 5 days.

Swagman wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 8:56am:

It's not about "removing" penalty rates.  It's about paying them where they are warranted ...

And they are warranted on Sundays.

Swagman wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 9:47am:

Dnarever wrote on Dec 23rd, 2015 at 9:30am: People must be sick of politicians being poorly informed and relying on untrue dishonest arguments. Yes I am sick of Labor & Green politicians being poorly informed and making untrue and irrational arguments.

Yet you are incapable of pointing it out and supporting your position.

Swagman wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 8:39am:

If you can't get individuals to work at un-standard hours then offer more pay to attract them ...

A lovely theory.

However, it doesn't work like that in the real world.

When employers can't get employees to work unsocial hours, they bully them, change their rosters, reduce their hours, and/or sack them.

That's the way it is, I'm afraid.

Swagman wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 8:56am:

It's not about "removing" penalty rates.  It's about paying them where they are warranted (where they are demanded).  It's about acknowledging that all workplaces (even those in the same industry) are different.  They operate in different localities each with their own little domestic market idiosyncrasies yet because of stupid outdated industrial relations regulations they are all tarred with the same IR brush.

Which would be all be well and good if employers didn't have so much power. Due to an oversupply of labour, which will only continue to grow as technology improves employers for unskilled labour could offer very low pay rates if they were not regulated. The regulations exists as part of society saying there are a minimum conditions including pay that we as a society will accept.


Swagman wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 8:56am:

Fixing IR into unmovable blocks means that business cannot move with the market punches and so lots get knocked out of the market because they can't compete and that is the root cause of unemployment and the underlying cause of the decline of Australian manufacturing since the 1960s.

There is little point in reducing unemployment if it leads to lower standards of living for more people. Australian manufacturing has been declining, but the service industry continues to grow. To be competitive in manufacturing generally requires having much lower labour costs, and hence lower standards of living for workers.

greggerypeccary wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 10:16am:

Swagman wrote on Dec 23rd, 2015 at 8:39am: If you can't get individuals to work at un-standard hours then offer more pay to attract them ... A lovely theory. However, it doesn't work like that in the real world. When employers can't get employees to work unsocial hours, they bully them, change their rosters, reduce their hours, and/or sack them. That's the way it is, I'm afraid.

Yeah, I really don't get why conservatives on this forum keep telling us people who have actually experienced it how it actually works in their delusional world.

If you're a retail worker and you turn down weekends, enjoy suddenly your roster going blank and suddenly another worker employed taking your hours.

I've seen this happen time and time again in retail, hell I had it happen to me, when a friend came back from finishing his tour in Afghanistan I wanted to take a  few days off and the manager instant started doing that slimy "we're disappointed in you blah blah blah" and my rostered on hours started dropping, completely ignoring I often worked months on end in a row without a single day off, I always covered for others and did hundreds of hours of unpaid overtime.

the ABC

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-12-23/zed-seselja-backs-cutting-sunday-penalty-rates/7049516

::)

greggerypeccary wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 10:16am:

Swagman wrote on Dec 23rd, 2015 at 8:39am: If you can't get individuals to work at un-standard hours then offer more pay to attract them ... A lovely theory. However, it doesn't work like that in the real world. When employers can't get employees to work unsocial hours, they bully them, change their rosters, reduce their hours, and/or sack them. That's the way it is, I'm afraid.

that's the way it isn't I'm afraid

you just made that up lie for lie

I doubt you even have a job by the looks of you all over this forum 24/7

BlueBeard wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 11:22am:

the ABC http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-12-23/zed-seselja-backs-cutting-sunday-penalty-rates/7049516 ::)

"It will create jobs, it will give jobs to people who don't have jobs, or it will give more hours to those who are seeking it in an industry where we often see businesses not even bothering to open on a Sunday."

No, it will not.

Kiron22 wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 10:52am:

If you're a retail worker and you turn down weekends, enjoy suddenly your roster going blank and suddenly another worker employed taking your hours.

Yep, that's exactly what happens.

Or, they'll sack you.

I've seen so many unfair dismissal claims where this is the case.

greggerypeccary wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 11:25am:

BlueBeard wrote on Dec 23rd, 2015 at 11:22am: the ABC http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-12-23/zed-seselja-backs-cutting-sunday-penalty-rates/7049516 ::) "It will create jobs, it will give jobs to people who don't have jobs, or it will give more hours to those who are seeking it in an industry where we often see businesses not even bothering to open on a Sunday." No, it will not.

yes it will

greggerypeccary wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 11:28am:

Kiron22 wrote on Dec 23rd, 2015 at 10:52am: If you're a retail worker and you turn down weekends, enjoy suddenly your roster going blank and suddenly another worker employed taking your hours. Yep, that's exactly what happens. Or, they'll sack you. I've seen so many unfair dismissal claims where this is the case.

more lies

you seem to be a serial liar around there's here parts...

BlueBeard wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 11:29am:

greggerypeccary wrote on Dec 23rd, 2015 at 11:25am: BlueBeard wrote on Dec 23rd, 2015 at 11:22am: the ABC http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-12-23/zed-seselja-backs-cutting-sunday-penalty-rates/7049516 ::) "It will create jobs, it will give jobs to people who don't have jobs, or it will give more hours to those who are seeking it in an industry where we often see businesses not even bothering to open on a Sunday." No, it will not. yes it will

PROOF?

Dsmithy70 wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 11:31am:

BlueBeard wrote on Dec 23rd, 2015 at 11:29am: greggerypeccary wrote on Dec 23rd, 2015 at 11:25am: BlueBeard wrote on Dec 23rd, 2015 at 11:22am: the ABC http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-12-23/zed-seselja-backs-cutting-sunday-penalty-rates/7049516 ::) "It will create jobs, it will give jobs to people who don't have jobs, or it will give more hours to those who are seeking it in an industry where we often see businesses not even bothering to open on a Sunday." No, it will not. yes it will PROOF?

after you smith and greggy  :)

you will stils get penalty rates on a sunday

Hasnt this issue been flogged a billion times before, nobody is getting a job if penalty rates are slashed , why employ more people to do what you had enough employees to do before .

Evidently more people are supposed to be rushing through the door if you cut penalty rates , so lets get this straight , people with less disposable income have more spending power , goodness me righties , bit thick arent we  ::)

during the American recovery after the recession it was the lower paying jobs that led the way

Higher-wage industries like accounting and legal work shed 3.6 million positions during the recession and have added only 2.6 million positions during the recovery. But lower wage industries lost two million jobs, then added 3.8 million.

Its time wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 11:36am:

nobody is getting a job if penalty rates are slashed

Correct.

Two things will happen, though:

1) workers will have less pay

2) workers will be bullied into working unsocial hours

BlueBeard wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 11:41am:

during the American recovery after the recession it was the lower paying jobs that led the way Higher-wage industries like accounting and legal work shed 3.6 million positions during the recession and have added only 2.6 million positions during the recovery. But lower wage industries lost two million jobs, then added 3.8 million.

If you want an American System I suggest you go live in America.

Have you been?

You think homelessness is bad here?

The rightards on here have no idea about running a business.

How many staff does a business bring in on Sunday to operate....The minimum needed.

How many more will they bring in if the wages dropped.....None

A good manager is ever watchful of keeping staffing levels to a minimum and profits to a maximum.

They are not bloody bleeding hearts handing out extra unneeded jobs

Dsmithy70 wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 11:31am:

BlueBeard wrote on Dec 23rd, 2015 at 11:29am: greggerypeccary wrote on Dec 23rd, 2015 at 11:25am: BlueBeard wrote on Dec 23rd, 2015 at 11:22am: the ABC http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-12-23/zed-seselja-backs-cutting-sunday-penalty-rates/7049516 ::) "It will create jobs, it will give jobs to people who don't have jobs, or it will give more hours to those who are seeking it in an industry where we often see businesses not even bothering to open on a Sunday." No, it will not. yes it will PROOF?

...is in the pudding

greggerypeccary wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 10:00am:

Swagman wrote on Dec 23rd, 2015 at 8:56am: It's not about "removing" penalty rates.  It's about paying them where they are warranted ... And they are warranted on Sundays.

Some places yes, some places no.

That's the difference between your argument and mine.

You paint all workplaces and localities with the one collective brush, which is bonkers...

Swagman wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 1:20pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Dec 23rd, 2015 at 10:00am: Swagman wrote on Dec 23rd, 2015 at 8:56am: It's not about "removing" penalty rates.  It's about paying them where they are warranted ... And they are warranted on Sundays. Some places yes, some places no. That's the difference between your argument and mine. You paint all workplaces and localities with the one collective brush, which is bonkers...

Exactly Swag
With the ever growing debt you'd think federal public servants penalty rates would be the 1st thing to go.
What is the difference between a heart attack on a Sunday as opposed to a Monday.
Why is it only the lowest paid least unionized on the chopping block?

So Swaggie you as a manager of "The Swagmans Retreat Cafe and Credit Agency" has eight staff on Sunday.

Suddenly wages go down  due to penalty changes.

You have sufficient staff already to do the job.

As a responsible manager where would you put the extra profits?

Swagman wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 1:20pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Dec 23rd, 2015 at 10:00am: Swagman wrote on Dec 23rd, 2015 at 8:56am: It's not about "removing" penalty rates.  It's about paying them where they are warranted ... And they are warranted on Sundays. Some places yes, some places no. That's the difference between your argument and mine. You paint all workplaces and localities with the one collective brush, which is bonkers...

It's not about the workplace, it's about the worker.

Sundays are when the kids and most family members are at home.

It's when people have BBQs and parties.

It's when a lot of sporting events and church services are held.

These things are important to all workers, whether they work at the airport, a coffee shop, a restaurant, in a country town or in a CBD office open from 9 to 5.

It's about the workers being compensated for working unsocial hours, not about where they work.

One day you'll understand that (hopefully).

How many times are the Libs going to flog this stalking horse , farrrk me.

Swagman wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 1:20pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Dec 23rd, 2015 at 10:00am: Swagman wrote on Dec 23rd, 2015 at 8:56am: It's not about "removing" penalty rates.  It's about paying them where they are warranted ... And they are warranted on Sundays. Some places yes, some places no.

All places yes.

It's not about the workplace, it's about the worker.

Sundays are when the kids and most family members are at home.

It's when people have BBQs and parties.

It's when a lot of sporting events and church services are held.

These things are important to all workers, whether they work at the airport, a coffee shop, a restaurant, in a country town or in a CBD office open from 9 to 5.

It's about the workers being compensated for working unsocial hours, not about where they work.

Office rents are far more in Australia than other countries.  Controlling property prices would do wonders for businesses far more than raising a generation of working poor, devaluing the middle class and making the rich richer.

greggerypeccary wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 10:16am:

Swagman wrote on Dec 23rd, 2015 at 8:39am: If you can't get individuals to work at un-standard hours then offer more pay to attract them ... A lovely theory. However, it doesn't work like that in the real world. When employers can't get employees to work unsocial hours, they bully them, change their rosters, reduce their hours, and/or sack them. That's the way it is, I'm afraid.

Have you ever tried to bully someone into doing your homework for you? it doesn't work.. employers bulling employees is as wide spread as unions bulling non union members into memberships.

greggerypeccary wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 10:16am:

Swagman wrote on Dec 23rd, 2015 at 8:39am: If you can't get individuals to work at un-standard hours then offer more pay to attract them ... A lovely theory. However, it doesn't work like that in the real world.

In Perth during the mining boom, kitchen hands were earning around $50 an hour.

Besides, there is still the Fair Work Ombudsman if you think you've been dudded..


greggerypeccary wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 10:16am:

When employers can't get employees to work unsocial hours, they bully them, change their rosters, reduce their hours, and/or sack them. That's the way it is, I'm afraid.

Which is pretty much what unions do to business to get them to pay over the market penalty rates.

Pretty much they won't be getting $50 per hour at the moment.  A reflection of your market forces.

greggerypeccary wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 1:34pm:

All places yes.

You are arrogantly suggesting that everyone is the same, which is simply not true.  Nobody is.  Which is why socialism fails.

Swagman wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 2:03pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Dec 23rd, 2015 at 1:34pm: All places yes. You are arrogantly suggesting that everyone is the same, which is simply not true.  Nobody is.  Which is why socialism fails.

Sundays are when the kids and most family members are at home.

It's when people have BBQs and parties.

It's when a lot of sporting events and church services are held.

These things are important to all workers, whether they work at the airport, a coffee shop, a restaurant, in a country town or in a CBD office open from 9 to 5.

Penalty rates for Sundays should remain.

stunspore wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 1:52pm:

Pretty much they won't be getting $50 per hour at the moment.  A reflection of your market forces.

Well looky here.  Someone has learnt something about markets today  :)

Congrats.

Pantheon wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 1:49pm:

.. employers bulling employees is as wide spread as...

... it's always been.

If a worker doesn't want to work Sunday for normal rates, they'll be bullied and often sacked.

Sunday penalty rates should remain.

All workers should be compensated for working unsocial hours.

greggerypeccary wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 2:07pm:

Swagman wrote on Dec 23rd, 2015 at 2:03pm: greggerypeccary wrote on Dec 23rd, 2015 at 1:34pm: All places yes. You are arrogantly suggesting that everyone is the same, which is simply not true.  Nobody is.  Which is why socialism fails. Sundays are when the kids and most family members are at home. It's when people have BBQs and parties. It's when a lot of sporting events and church services are held. These things are important to all workers, whether they work at the airport, a coffee shop, a restaurant, in a country town or in a CBD office open from 9 to 5. Penalty rates for Sundays should remain.

Not everyone has kids and family members.  Not everyone has BBQs and goes to church on Sunday.  Not everyone likes sport.

And you comrades have the hide to call the Libs 'conservatives'?  ::)

It's a 24/7 world these days.  Shape up, or ship out.  That's the message for businesses.  IR policy has to bend and follow suit with it otherwise it will just mean less business and more unemployment.

Swagman wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 2:13pm:

It's a 24/7 world these days.

Really?

Call the Productivity Commission on a Sunday and see how well you go.

Call your local politician's office at 11pm on a Saturday and tell me how you go.

Penalty rates compensate workers for working unsocial hours, and they should remain exactly as they are.

That's a weak argument greg.
The Productivity Commission isn't a 24/7 industry but, in some areas, hospitality & accommodation & transport etc are.
If you choose those areas of employment these days you expect to work shift hours.

bogarde73 wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 2:23pm:

The Productivity Commission isn't a 24/7 industry but, in some areas, hospitality & accommodation & transport etc are. If you choose those areas of employment these days you expect to work shift hours.

Absolutely.

And you expect to be paid penalty rates for working unsocial hours.

Redmond Neck wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 1:25pm:

So Swaggie you as a manager of "The Swagmans Retreat Cafe and Credit Agency" has eight staff on Sunday. Suddenly wages go down  due to penalty changes. You have sufficient staff already to do the job. As a responsible manager where would you put the extra profits?

Too embarrassed to answer eh Swaggie!  ;D ;D ;D ;D

"Cutting penalty rates does not increase employment or productivity – it is simply a raid on low income people’s wages that will create an underclass of working poor."

http://www.actu.org.au/actu-media/media-releases/2015/turnbull-must-reject-productivity-commission-call-to-cut-take-home-pay

This is no different to any other windfall that a company receives occasionally

Do they use the increased profits to employ not needed staff.

No Bloody Way!

"Penalty rates are not an impediment to economic growth.

"The retail and hospitality sectors grew at 3.6% and 3.2% respectively last year, significantly outperforming the rest of the economy.

"There is no justification for cutting employees’ wages."

http://www.actu.org.au/actu-media/media-releases/2015/turnbull-must-reject-productivity-commission-call-to-cut-take-home-pay

bogarde73 wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 2:23pm:

That's a weak argument greg. The Productivity Commission isn't a 24/7 industry but, in some areas, hospitality & accommodation & transport etc are. If you choose those areas of employment these days you expect to work shift hours.

So again I ask Boges why are we only going after Hospitality & Retail?

Emergency workers are a 24/7 industry.

Dsmithy70 wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 3:23pm:

bogarde73 wrote on Dec 23rd, 2015 at 2:23pm: That's a weak argument greg. The Productivity Commission isn't a 24/7 industry but, in some areas, hospitality & accommodation & transport etc are. If you choose those areas of employment these days you expect to work shift hours. So again I ask Boges why are we only going after Hospitality & Retail? Emergency workers are a 24/7 industry.

I think this is pretty transparent actually.

If Hospitality and Retail workers go on strike over their pay being cut it is very easily maligned in the media leading to public opinion going against the Hospitality and Retail Workers, because people want their take away coffee and the chintz...

Emergency Services etc, are a bit more vocally represented, it would be much harder (in many instances) to shift public opinion away from them over a pay dispute....

So, if we don't talk about them, then it's a straight forward and reasonable thing to say we need to have dialogue about penalty rates...

Phemanderac wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 3:28pm:

So, if we don't talk about them, then it's a straight forward and reasonable thing to say we need to have dialogue about penalty rates...

Yeah go for the low hanging fruit with no bargaining power!  ;D ;D

Phemanderac wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 3:28pm:

Dsmithy70 wrote on Dec 23rd, 2015 at 3:23pm: bogarde73 wrote on Dec 23rd, 2015 at 2:23pm: That's a weak argument greg. The Productivity Commission isn't a 24/7 industry but, in some areas, hospitality & accommodation & transport etc are. If you choose those areas of employment these days you expect to work shift hours. So again I ask Boges why are we only going after Hospitality & Retail? Emergency workers are a 24/7 industry. I think this is pretty transparent actually. If Hospitality and Retail workers go on strike over their pay being cut it is very easily maligned in the media leading to public opinion going against the Hospitality and Retail Workers, because people want their take away coffee and the chintz... Emergency Services etc, are a bit more vocally represented, it would be much harder (in many instances) to shift public opinion away from them over a pay dispute.... So, if we don't talk about them, then it's a straight forward and reasonable thing to say we need to have dialogue about penalty rates...

Well yes, but I'd like an LNP shill to tell me why, they of course would do all sorts of verbal gymnastics not to say what you just did.

It would be quite entertaining ;)

Dammit, sorry...   :-/

Redmond Neck wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 2:28pm:

Redmond Neck wrote on Dec 23rd, 2015 at 1:25pm: So Swaggie you as a manager of "The Swagmans Retreat Cafe and Credit Agency" has eight staff on Sunday. Suddenly wages go down  due to penalty changes. You have sufficient staff already to do the job. As a responsible manager where would you put the extra profits? Too embarrassed to answer eh Swaggie!  ;D ;D ;D ;D

Probably go down the let's reduced coffee by 5 cents (hopefully bit more) since I don't have pay more and see if consumers will drink more/attract more customers.

Seriously, is there a demand that would justify the reduction in cost of supply?  If your nearby coffee place decided to reduce coffee by 50cents while your usual favourite coffee place which is say 50 metres away stayed the same, would that change your usual pickup?  For 50cents?  The elasticity of demand/supply probably won't mean more employment.  More profit more likely.

Phemanderac wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 3:32pm:

Dammit, sorry...   :-/

LOL all good they would have ignored it anyway ;D

Redmond Neck wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 2:28pm:

Redmond Neck wrote on Dec 23rd, 2015 at 1:25pm: So Swaggie you as a manager of "The Swagmans Retreat Cafe and Credit Agency" has eight staff on Sunday. Suddenly wages go down  due to penalty changes. You have sufficient staff already to do the job. As a responsible manager where would you put the extra profits? Too embarrassed to answer eh Swaggie!  ;D ;D ;D ;

Some people actually w.o.r.k. and can't be on OzPol 24/7.  ;)

So changing Sunday rates to that of Saturday rates is a great evil?

But a Carbon Tax and a 10% rise in power prices was good?

Try some consistency just for a change of pace.

mariacostel wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 4:04pm:

So changing Sunday rates to that of Saturday rates is a great evil?

Yes.


mariacostel wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 4:04pm:

But a Carbon Tax and a 10% rise in power prices was good?

No.

Neferti wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 4:02pm:

Redmond Neck wrote on Dec 23rd, 2015 at 2:28pm: Redmond Neck wrote on Dec 23rd, 2015 at 1:25pm: So Swaggie you as a manager of "The Swagmans Retreat Cafe and Credit Agency" has eight staff on Sunday. Suddenly wages go down  due to penalty changes. You have sufficient staff already to do the job. As a responsible manager where would you put the extra profits? Too embarrassed to answer eh Swaggie!  ;D ;D ;D ; Some people actually w.o.r.k. and can't be on OzPol 24/7.  ;)

No Swaggie just had to go home from work, he is a credit manager you know that only works 8-5 .

Apparently the boss doesnt mind him being on the internet forums instead of credit managing!

He is home now and cant spend all day on the internet!  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

greggerypeccary wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 4:08pm:

mariacostel wrote on Dec 23rd, 2015 at 4:04pm: So changing Sunday rates to that of Saturday rates is a great evil? Yes. mariacostel wrote on Dec 23rd, 2015 at 4:04pm: But a Carbon Tax and a 10% rise in power prices was good? No.

Thanks for proving my point. Ideology is your driving force.

greggerypeccary wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 2:09pm:

Pantheon wrote on Dec 23rd, 2015 at 1:49pm: .. employers bulling employees is as wide spread as... ... it's always been. If a worker doesn't want to work Sunday for normal rates, they'll be bullied and often sacked. Sunday penalty rates should remain. All workers should be compensated for working unsocial hours.

And what about... the unions bulling non union members into memberships.. and harassing workers       and other businesses that follow the law?

Has that been always wide spread?

Pantheon wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 4:22pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Dec 23rd, 2015 at 2:09pm: Pantheon wrote on Dec 23rd, 2015 at 1:49pm: .. employers bulling employees is as wide spread as... ... it's always been. If a worker doesn't want to work Sunday for normal rates, they'll be bullied and often sacked. Sunday penalty rates should remain. All workers should be compensated for working unsocial hours. And what about... the unions bulling non union members into memberships.. and harassing workers       and other businesses that follow the law? Has that been always wide spread?

If you know of any such behaviour, you should report it to the FWC.

Forcing people to join a Union, or preventing them from joining one, is illegal.

Pantheon wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 1:49pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Dec 23rd, 2015 at 10:16am: Swagman wrote on Dec 23rd, 2015 at 8:39am: If you can't get individuals to work at un-standard hours then offer more pay to attract them ... A lovely theory. However, it doesn't work like that in the real world. When employers can't get employees to work unsocial hours, they bully them, change their rosters, reduce their hours, and/or sack them. That's the way it is, I'm afraid. Have you ever tried to bully someone into doing your homework for you? it doesn't work.. employers bulling employees is as wide spread as unions bulling non union members into memberships.

you can't be serious? you don't think bosses throw down ultimatums? get out in the real world.

Neferti wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 4:02pm:

Redmond Neck wrote on Dec 23rd, 2015 at 2:28pm: Redmond Neck wrote on Dec 23rd, 2015 at 1:25pm: So Swaggie you as a manager of "The Swagmans Retreat Cafe and Credit Agency" has eight staff on Sunday. Suddenly wages go down  due to penalty changes. You have sufficient staff already to do the job. As a responsible manager where would you put the extra profits? Too embarrassed to answer eh Swaggie!  ;D ;D ;D ; Some people actually w.o.r.k. and can't be on OzPol 24/7.  ;)

what has that to do with it? the question was directed to Swag ...

mariacostel wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 4:04pm:

So changing Sunday rates to that of Saturday rates is a great evil? But a Carbon Tax and a 10% rise in power prices was good? Try some consistency just for a change of pace.

not sure how you think the two are even related

but you go ahead and keep flapping those gums anyway.

John Smith wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 4:28pm:

Pantheon wrote on Dec 23rd, 2015 at 1:49pm: greggerypeccary wrote on Dec 23rd, 2015 at 10:16am: Swagman wrote on Dec 23rd, 2015 at 8:39am: If you can't get individuals to work at un-standard hours then offer more pay to attract them ... A lovely theory. However, it doesn't work like that in the real world. When employers can't get employees to work unsocial hours, they bully them, change their rosters, reduce their hours, and/or sack them. That's the way it is, I'm afraid. Have you ever tried to bully someone into doing your homework for you? it doesn't work.. employers bulling employees is as wide spread as unions bulling non union members into memberships. you can't be serious? you don't think bosses throw down ultimatums? get out in the real world.

Most employees are intimidated and bullied by their employer or management teams. Just how it is.

John Smith wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 4:30pm:

mariacostel wrote on Dec 23rd, 2015 at 4:04pm: So changing Sunday rates to that of Saturday rates is a great evil? But a Carbon Tax and a 10% rise in power prices was good? Try some consistency just for a change of pace. not sure how you think the two are even related but you go ahead and keep flapping those gums anyway.

Longy convieniently left out a GST rise , thats ok coz its Lib policy.

Pantheon wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 4:22pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Dec 23rd, 2015 at 2:09pm: Pantheon wrote on Dec 23rd, 2015 at 1:49pm: .. employers bulling employees is as wide spread as... ... it's always been. If a worker doesn't want to work Sunday for normal rates, they'll be bullied and often sacked. Sunday penalty rates should remain. All workers should be compensated for working unsocial hours. And what about... the unions bulling non union members into memberships.. and harassing workers       and other businesses that follow the law? Has that been always wide spread?

I have not seen a non union member bullied by the union in the last 40 years, have seen the odd occasion when other union members have given a non union member a mouth full for taking all the benefits but none of the pain.

These people are parasites.

Pantheon wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 4:22pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Dec 23rd, 2015 at 2:09pm: Pantheon wrote on Dec 23rd, 2015 at 1:49pm: .. employers bulling employees is as wide spread as... ... it's always been. If a worker doesn't want to work Sunday for normal rates, they'll be bullied and often sacked. Sunday penalty rates should remain. All workers should be compensated for working unsocial hours. And what about... the unions bulling non union members into memberships.. and harassing workers       and other businesses that follow the law? Has that been always wide spread?

I would personally like to see those who wont join sit outside on a milk crate in the hot sun to eat their smoko and be put on individual agreements outside of EBA and call them a grubby scab  but what i want and can say and do are two totally different things. I remind them that they enjoy their rdos weekends annual leave sick leave and a higher rate of pay because of our unions and common sense prevails .

Dsmithy70 wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 3:23pm:

bogarde73 wrote on Dec 23rd, 2015 at 2:23pm: That's a weak argument greg. The Productivity Commission isn't a 24/7 industry but, in some areas, hospitality & accommodation & transport etc are. If you choose those areas of employment these days you expect to work shift hours. So again I ask Boges why are we only going after Hospitality & Retail? Emergency workers are a 24/7 industry.

Thin edge of the wedge it is called. Fight the battle you can win today and take the rest later.

greggerypeccary wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 4:24pm:

Pantheon wrote on Dec 23rd, 2015 at 4:22pm: greggerypeccary wrote on Dec 23rd, 2015 at 2:09pm: Pantheon wrote on Dec 23rd, 2015 at 1:49pm: .. employers bulling employees is as wide spread as... ... it's always been. If a worker doesn't want to work Sunday for normal rates, they'll be bullied and often sacked. Sunday penalty rates should remain. All workers should be compensated for working unsocial hours. And what about... the unions bulling non union members into memberships.. and harassing workers       and other businesses that follow the law? Has that been always wide spread? If you know of any such behaviour, you should report it to the FWC. Forcing people to join a Union, or preventing them from joining one, is illegal.

Try not being a union member on a building site and just as pitifully, the RIGHT union.

Its time wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 4:38pm:

John Smith wrote on Dec 23rd, 2015 at 4:30pm: mariacostel wrote on Dec 23rd, 2015 at 4:04pm: So changing Sunday rates to that of Saturday rates is a great evil? But a Carbon Tax and a 10% rise in power prices was good? Try some consistency just for a change of pace. not sure how you think the two are even related but you go ahead and keep flapping those gums anyway. Longy convieniently left out a GST rise , thats ok coz its Lib policy.

What GST rise?  There has been no rise. When one is announced then we can discuss it with the ill-informed ignorance and bias for which you are so well known.

Dnarever wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 4:40pm:

Pantheon wrote on Dec 23rd, 2015 at 4:22pm: greggerypeccary wrote on Dec 23rd, 2015 at 2:09pm: Pantheon wrote on Dec 23rd, 2015 at 1:49pm: .. employers bulling employees is as wide spread as... ... it's always been. If a worker doesn't want to work Sunday for normal rates, they'll be bullied and often sacked. Sunday penalty rates should remain. All workers should be compensated for working unsocial hours. And what about... the unions bulling non union members into memberships.. and harassing workers       and other businesses that follow the law? Has that been always wide spread? I have not seen a non union member bullied by the union in the last 40 years, have seen the odd occasion when other union members have given a non union member a mouth full for taking all the benefits but none of the pain. These people are parasites.

Only you could contradict yourself in the same sentence.

Its time wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 4:59pm:

Pantheon wrote on Dec 23rd, 2015 at 4:22pm: greggerypeccary wrote on Dec 23rd, 2015 at 2:09pm: Pantheon wrote on Dec 23rd, 2015 at 1:49pm: .. employers bulling employees is as wide spread as... ... it's always been. If a worker doesn't want to work Sunday for normal rates, they'll be bullied and often sacked. Sunday penalty rates should remain. All workers should be compensated for working unsocial hours. And what about... the unions bulling non union members into memberships.. and harassing workers       and other businesses that follow the law? Has that been always wide spread? I would personally like to see those who wont join sit outside on a milk crate in the hot sun to eat their smoko and be put on individual agreements outside of EBA and call them a grubby scab  but what i want and can say and do are two totally different things. I remind them that they enjoy their rdos weekends annual leave sick leave and a higher rate of pay because of our unions and common sense prevails .

Can they negotiate their own terms and conditions then? Own rate of pay etc?  Be careful what you wish for. On multiple occasions unions fought AGAINST That because these individuals were able to negotiated higher rates of pay because they were willing to work harder and with less rubbish like union meetings.

mariacostel wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 5:13pm:

Dnarever wrote on Dec 23rd, 2015 at 4:40pm: Pantheon wrote on Dec 23rd, 2015 at 4:22pm: greggerypeccary wrote on Dec 23rd, 2015 at 2:09pm: Pantheon wrote on Dec 23rd, 2015 at 1:49pm: .. employers bulling employees is as wide spread as... ... it's always been. If a worker doesn't want to work Sunday for normal rates, they'll be bullied and often sacked. Sunday penalty rates should remain. All workers should be compensated for working unsocial hours. And what about... the unions bulling non union members into memberships.. and harassing workers       and other businesses that follow the law? Has that been always wide spread? I have not seen a non union member bullied by the union in the last 40 years, have seen the odd occasion when other union members have given a non union member a mouth full for taking all the benefits but none of the pain. These people are parasites. Only you could contradict yourself in the same sentence.

No contradiction just your poor comprehension again.

mariacostel wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 5:15pm:

Its time wrote on Dec 23rd, 2015 at 4:59pm: Pantheon wrote on Dec 23rd, 2015 at 4:22pm: greggerypeccary wrote on Dec 23rd, 2015 at 2:09pm: Pantheon wrote on Dec 23rd, 2015 at 1:49pm: .. employers bulling employees is as wide spread as... ... it's always been. If a worker doesn't want to work Sunday for normal rates, they'll be bullied and often sacked. Sunday penalty rates should remain. All workers should be compensated for working unsocial hours. And what about... the unions bulling non union members into memberships.. and harassing workers       and other businesses that follow the law? Has that been always wide spread? I would personally like to see those who wont join sit outside on a milk crate in the hot sun to eat their smoko and be put on individual agreements outside of EBA and call them a grubby scab  but what i want and can say and do are two totally different things. I remind them that they enjoy their rdos weekends annual leave sick leave and a higher rate of pay because of our unions and common sense prevails . Can they negotiate their own terms and conditions then? Own rate of pay etc?  Be careful what you wish for. On multiple occasions unions fought AGAINST That because these individuals were able to negotiated higher rates of pay because they were willing to work harder and with less rubbish like union meetings.

Union meetings are conducted in unpaid lunch breaks or in the carpark when BHP gets sand in their vag and wont give them right of entry .

mariacostel wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 5:12pm:

Its time wrote on Dec 23rd, 2015 at 4:38pm: John Smith wrote on Dec 23rd, 2015 at 4:30pm: mariacostel wrote on Dec 23rd, 2015 at 4:04pm: So changing Sunday rates to that of Saturday rates is a great evil? But a Carbon Tax and a 10% rise in power prices was good? Try some consistency just for a change of pace. not sure how you think the two are even related but you go ahead and keep flapping those gums anyway. Longy convieniently left out a GST rise , thats ok coz its Lib policy. What GST rise?  There has been no rise. When one is announced then we can discuss it with the ill-informed ignorance and bias for which you are so well known.

then why are you discussing cuts to penalty rates? no cuts have been announced, have they?  :D :D :D :D



and you wonder why people think you're an idiot  :D ;D ;D ;D

mariacostel wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 4:04pm:

So changing Sunday rates to that of Saturday rates is a great evil? But a Carbon Tax and a 10% rise in power prices was good? Try some consistency just for a change of pace.

You are all over the place - Jumping from penalty rates to power prices and then talking about consistency - WOW.

John Smith wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 5:24pm:

and you wonder why people think you're an idiot

I think the term is a far k ing idiot!

Redmond Neck wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 5:53pm:

John Smith wrote on Dec 23rd, 2015 at 5:24pm: and you wonder why people think you're an idiot I think the term is a far k ing idiot!

I stand corrected

mariacostel wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 5:15pm:

Can they negotiate their own terms and conditions then? Own rate of pay etc?

Yep.

Any worker can do that right now.

The Modern Awards and the NES are the minimum requirements.

Any employer and employee can enter into negotiations for pay and conditions above those of the NES and Modern Awards.

If an employer wants to pay one worker the Award rate, and then pay the worker who sits next to him, and does the exact same job, ten times that amount there is absolutely nothing stopping them.

good thing Maria worked i HR for 30 odd years ..... she doesn't even know the rules  ;D ;D ;D

John Smith wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 6:10pm:

good thing Maria worked i HR for 30 odd years ..... she doesn't even know the rules  ;D ;D ;D

I've dealt with HR Managers, who've been in the job for years, who have no idea about workplace legislation.

Take Workers' Compensation, for example.

Hardly a week goes by when I don't have to explain to an HR Manager that an injured worker has the right to choose their own doctor, and that the worker's manager/supervisor/employer has no right to be present while the doctor examines them.

I still know of HR Managers who don't understand the difference between a casual and a part-timer.

They aren't the smartest bunch, I can tell ya.


https://www.fairwork.gov.au/how-we-will-help/templates-and-guides/fact-sheets/minimum-workplace-entitlements

"Minimum workplace entitlements"

stunspore wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 1:43pm:

Office rents are far more in Australia than other countries.  Controlling property prices would do wonders for businesses far more than raising a generation of working poor, devaluing the middle class and making the rich richer.

Bravo! Someone finally mentions the real cost that makes many businesses uncompetitive. Retail rents in Australia are too high.

If we could force down retail rents, we could make businesses a lot more profitable WITHOUT touching penalty rates.

greggerypeccary wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 6:19pm:

John Smith wrote on Dec 23rd, 2015 at 6:10pm: good thing Maria worked i HR for 30 odd years ..... she doesn't even know the rules  ;D ;D ;D I've dealt with HR Managers, who've been in the job for years, who have no idea about workplace legislation. Take Workers' Compensation, for example. Hardly a week goes by when I don't have to explain to an HR Manager that an injured worker has the right to choose their own doctor, and that the worker's manager/supervisor/employer has no right to be present while the doctor examines them. I still know of HR Managers who don't understand the difference between a casual and a part-timer. They aren't the smartest bunch, I can tell ya. https://www.fairwork.gov.au/how-we-will-help/templates-and-guides/fact-sheets/minimum-workplace-entitlements "Minimum workplace entitlements"

Ahh yes the companies doctor , ive been witness to it on multiple occasions listening to the heirachy try and lay on the spiel its mandatory to see their prefered " medical practitioners", nothing more satisfying than smacking these boffins down with the reality bat and having the individual see his doctor.

Bam wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 6:50pm:

stunspore wrote on Dec 23rd, 2015 at 1:43pm: Office rents are far more in Australia than other countries.  Controlling property prices would do wonders for businesses far more than raising a generation of working poor, devaluing the middle class and making the rich richer. Bravo! Someone finally mentions the real cost that makes many businesses uncompetitive. Retail rents in Australia are too high. If we could force down retail rents, we could make businesses a lot more profitable WITHOUT touching penalty rates.

Excellent point.

The rents are ridiculous.

Its time wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 6:52pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Dec 23rd, 2015 at 6:19pm: John Smith wrote on Dec 23rd, 2015 at 6:10pm: good thing Maria worked i HR for 30 odd years ..... she doesn't even know the rules  ;D ;D ;D I've dealt with HR Managers, who've been in the job for years, who have no idea about workplace legislation. Take Workers' Compensation, for example. Hardly a week goes by when I don't have to explain to an HR Manager that an injured worker has the right to choose their own doctor, and that the worker's manager/supervisor/employer has no right to be present while the doctor examines them. I still know of HR Managers who don't understand the difference between a casual and a part-timer. They aren't the smartest bunch, I can tell ya. https://www.fairwork.gov.au/how-we-will-help/templates-and-guides/fact-sheets/minimum-workplace-entitlements "Minimum workplace entitlements" Ahh yes the companies doctor , ive been witness to it on multiple occasions listening to the heirachy try and lay on the spiel its mandatory to see their prefered " medical practitioners", nothing more satisfying than smacking these boffins down with the reality bat and having the individual see his doctor.

Absolutely   ;D

And pushing the manager out of the surgery, and making them sit in the waiting room.

greggerypeccary wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 6:54pm:

Bam wrote on Dec 23rd, 2015 at 6:50pm: stunspore wrote on Dec 23rd, 2015 at 1:43pm: Office rents are far more in Australia than other countries.  Controlling property prices would do wonders for businesses far more than raising a generation of working poor, devaluing the middle class and making the rich richer. Bravo! Someone finally mentions the real cost that makes many businesses uncompetitive. Retail rents in Australia are too high. If we could force down retail rents, we could make businesses a lot more profitable WITHOUT touching penalty rates. Excellent point. The rents are ridiculous.

Which leads us directly to the following.... you Salem Deputy Khalifs of Auburnistan are the ones who are profiting from small business by exploitation.... and the same pressure is then applied by small business to their workers....

Funny how it works out that the greatest thieves get to feed off everyone else....

You SURE Salem isn't a Lib?

John Smith wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 6:10pm:

good thing Maria worked i HR for 30 odd years ..... she doesn't even know the rules  ;D ;D ;D

.. but is a sound negotiator....... don't hold back on plaudits where deserved...

Dnarever wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 5:29pm:

mariacostel wrote on Dec 23rd, 2015 at 4:04pm: So changing Sunday rates to that of Saturday rates is a great evil? But a Carbon Tax and a 10% rise in power prices was good? Try some consistency just for a change of pace. You are all over the place - Jumping from penalty rates to power prices and then talking about consistency - WOW.

;D  ;D  ;D  ;D  ;D

Got it in one....

mariacostel wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 5:15pm:

Can they negotiate their own terms and conditions then? Own rate of pay etc?  Be careful what you wish for. On multiple occasions unions fought AGAINST That because these individuals were able to negotiated higher rates of pay because they were willing to work harder and with less rubbish like union meetings.

Some examples would be good right now.....

Dnarever wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 5:18pm:

mariacostel wrote on Dec 23rd, 2015 at 5:13pm: Dnarever wrote on Dec 23rd, 2015 at 4:40pm: Pantheon wrote on Dec 23rd, 2015 at 4:22pm: greggerypeccary wrote on Dec 23rd, 2015 at 2:09pm: Pantheon wrote on Dec 23rd, 2015 at 1:49pm: .. employers bulling employees is as wide spread as... ... it's always been. If a worker doesn't want to work Sunday for normal rates, they'll be bullied and often sacked. Sunday penalty rates should remain. All workers should be compensated for working unsocial hours. And what about... the unions bulling non union members into memberships.. and harassing workers       and other businesses that follow the law? Has that been always wide spread? I have not seen a non union member bullied by the union in the last 40 years, have seen the odd occasion when other union members have given a non union member a mouth full for taking all the benefits but none of the pain. These people are parasites. Only you could contradict yourself in the same sentence. No contradiction just your poor comprehension again.

Youve never seen a non-union member bullied but you've seen a non-union member bullied.

wow... that is some breathtaking contradiction followed up by spectacular denial all on a sesame seed bun of utter stupidity.

well well

look at all the jobless bums trying to tell everyone how to run a business..

what a joke...

Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 7:04pm:

mariacostel wrote on Dec 23rd, 2015 at 5:15pm: Can they negotiate their own terms and conditions then? Own rate of pay etc?  Be careful what you wish for. On multiple occasions unions fought AGAINST That because these individuals were able to negotiated higher rates of pay because they were willing to work harder and with less rubbish like union meetings. Some examples would be good right now.....

A cpl of the fellas refused to join union in a different division in the company structure , all good their choice bit we as bargaining reps happily left them to sort out their own negotiations , 18 months on and they're still fighting for a rise whilst we're a couple of classifications down on more money  ;D

President Elect, The Mechanic wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 8:41pm:

well well look at all the jobless bums trying to tell everyone how to run a business.. what a joke...

Maria is not a jobless bum .... her husband is starting his own business. :D :D

Bam wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 6:50pm:

stunspore wrote on Dec 23rd, 2015 at 1:43pm: Office rents are far more in Australia than other countries.  Controlling property prices would do wonders for businesses far more than raising a generation of working poor, devaluing the middle class and making the rich richer. Bravo! Someone finally mentions the real cost that makes many businesses uncompetitive. Retail rents in Australia are too high. If we could force down retail rents, we could make businesses a lot more profitable WITHOUT touching penalty rates.

I agree ..... little corner shop down the road from me, in a suburban strip in the suburbs, is asking for $78 000 a year  ....for 60m2 shop space. Ridiculous. .. no wonder the chicken shop that used to occupy the space went bust.

mariacostel wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 8:01pm:

Dnarever wrote on Dec 23rd, 2015 at 5:18pm: mariacostel wrote on Dec 23rd, 2015 at 5:13pm: Dnarever wrote on Dec 23rd, 2015 at 4:40pm: Pantheon wrote on Dec 23rd, 2015 at 4:22pm: greggerypeccary wrote on Dec 23rd, 2015 at 2:09pm: Pantheon wrote on Dec 23rd, 2015 at 1:49pm: .. employers bulling employees is as wide spread as... ... it's always been. If a worker doesn't want to work Sunday for normal rates, they'll be bullied and often sacked. Sunday penalty rates should remain. All workers should be compensated for working unsocial hours. And what about... the unions bulling non union members into memberships.. and harassing workers       and other businesses that follow the law? Has that been always wide spread? I have not seen a non union member bullied by the union in the last 40 years, have seen the odd occasion when other union members have given a non union member a mouth full for taking all the benefits but none of the pain. These people are parasites. Only you could contradict yourself in the same sentence. No contradiction just your poor comprehension again. Youve never seen a non-union member bullied but you've seen a non-union member bullied. wow... that is some breathtaking contradiction followed up by spectacular denial all on a sesame seed bun of utter stupidity.

There is a difference between being criticised by work mates and union representatives.

The statement was unions bullying non union members, I have never seen it happen.

.
Youve never seen a non-union member bullied but you've seen a non-union member bullied.


The difference is who by ? the claim was specifically by the union  ?

Note: this passage was typed at about 3 words per minute.

Try reading it 3 or 4 times and see if you understand then ?

John Smith wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 10:06pm:

President Elect, The Mechanic wrote on Dec 23rd, 2015 at 8:41pm: well well look at all the jobless bums trying to tell everyone how to run a business.. what a joke... Maria is not a jobless bum .... her husband is starting his own business. :D :D

He is lucky that both words are not mutually exclusive though.

Dnarever wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 10:22pm:

John Smith wrote on Dec 23rd, 2015 at 10:06pm: President Elect, The Mechanic wrote on Dec 23rd, 2015 at 8:41pm: well well look at all the jobless bums trying to tell everyone how to run a business.. what a joke... Maria is not a jobless bum .... her husband is starting his own business. :D :D He is lucky that both words are not mutually exclusive though.

Maria and her husband?

Its time wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 8:46pm:

Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM wrote on Dec 23rd, 2015 at 7:04pm: mariacostel wrote on Dec 23rd, 2015 at 5:15pm: Can they negotiate their own terms and conditions then? Own rate of pay etc?  Be careful what you wish for. On multiple occasions unions fought AGAINST That because these individuals were able to negotiated higher rates of pay because they were willing to work harder and with less rubbish like union meetings. Some examples would be good right now..... A cpl of the fellas refused to join union in a different division in the company structure , all good their choice bit we as bargaining reps happily left them to sort out their own negotiations , 18 months on and they're still fighting for a rise whilst we're a couple of classifications down on more money  ;D

Given that you are not allowed to discriminate according to union membership, I am calling this a lie or at least a misrepresentation.

Dnarever wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 10:20pm:

mariacostel wrote on Dec 23rd, 2015 at 8:01pm: Dnarever wrote on Dec 23rd, 2015 at 5:18pm: mariacostel wrote on Dec 23rd, 2015 at 5:13pm: Dnarever wrote on Dec 23rd, 2015 at 4:40pm: Pantheon wrote on Dec 23rd, 2015 at 4:22pm: greggerypeccary wrote on Dec 23rd, 2015 at 2:09pm: Pantheon wrote on Dec 23rd, 2015 at 1:49pm: .. employers bulling employees is as wide spread as... ... it's always been. If a worker doesn't want to work Sunday for normal rates, they'll be bullied and often sacked. Sunday penalty rates should remain. All workers should be compensated for working unsocial hours. And what about... the unions bulling non union members into memberships.. and harassing workers       and other businesses that follow the law? Has that been always wide spread? I have not seen a non union member bullied by the union in the last 40 years, have seen the odd occasion when other union members have given a non union member a mouth full for taking all the benefits but none of the pain. These people are parasites. Only you could contradict yourself in the same sentence. No contradiction just your poor comprehension again. Youve never seen a non-union member bullied but you've seen a non-union member bullied. wow... that is some breathtaking contradiction followed up by spectacular denial all on a sesame seed bun of utter stupidity. There is a difference between being criticised by work mates and union representatives. The statement was unions bullying non union members, I have never seen it happen. . Youve never seen a non-union member bullied but you've seen a non-union member bullied. The difference is who by ? the claim was specifically by the union  ? Note: this passage was typed at about 3 words per minute. Try reading it 3 or 4 times and see if you understand then ?

If you are being bullied by union members for not being in a union then you are effectively being bullied by a union. if you cannot see that then... I am not surprised.

greggerypeccary wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 2:43pm:

"Penalty rates are not an impediment to economic growth. "The retail and hospitality sectors grew at 3.6% and 3.2% respectively last year, significantly outperforming the rest of the economy. "There is no justification for cutting employees’ wages." http://www.actu.org.au/actu-media/media-releases/2015/turnbull-must-reject-productivity-commission-call-to-cut-take-home-pay

What if it's to save their jobs?  :-?

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-10-08/bluescope-workers-vote-yes/6836414

If penalty rates are important to you.  Looks likei ts a good idea not to vote for the coalition.   ;) 

John Smith wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 10:30pm:

Dnarever wrote on Dec 23rd, 2015 at 10:22pm: John Smith wrote on Dec 23rd, 2015 at 10:06pm: President Elect, The Mechanic wrote on Dec 23rd, 2015 at 8:41pm: well well look at all the jobless bums trying to tell everyone how to run a business.. what a joke... Maria is not a jobless bum .... her husband is starting his own business. :D :D He is lucky that both words are not mutually exclusive though. Maria and her husband?

I was thinking bum and Jobless but it could be the same thing, not sure.

mariacostel wrote on Dec 24^th, 2015 at 6:01am:

If you are being bullied by union members for not being in a union then you are effectively being bullied by a union. if you cannot see that then... I am not surprised.

Justified criticism from work mates falls way short of bullying and even though they are union members they have no official union standing. It is not the same thing and it is not what was originally stated.

These are just people who can see that they are spending money to get a result and that these others are sponging  off them or probably more accurately bludging on them. They take all the benefits but refuse to contribute to the process.

These people are bludgers and it is understandable that their work mates question the integrity of their actions.

Swagman wrote on Dec 24^th, 2015 at 7:24am:

greggerypeccary wrote on Dec 23rd, 2015 at 2:43pm: "Penalty rates are not an impediment to economic growth. "The retail and hospitality sectors grew at 3.6% and 3.2% respectively last year, significantly outperforming the rest of the economy. "There is no justification for cutting employees’ wages." http://www.actu.org.au/actu-media/media-releases/2015/turnbull-must-reject-productivity-commission-call-to-cut-take-home-pay What if it's to save their jobs?  :-? http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-10-08/bluescope-workers-vote-yes/6836414

We will see in a year or two, I have seen this done a number of times and to this point it always has failed. The employees take the pay cut and 15 months later the company folds anyway, The problem was never employee wages - it never is so cutting pay rates never fixes the core issues.

Only difference is that when the company finally goes into receivership there is that little left that the employees who took pay cut now find that all their benefits and payments owed are also gone.

They typically find super payments not made, long service leave payment unfunded, redundancy money spent etc.

So they get 15 months more employment which is better than 15 months unemployment.

Maybe they can get work up in QLD or in the N/W NSW where new coal mines are being established.  Plenty of jobs will become available providing the Greenswine quit their ideological terrorism.

mariacostel wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 4:04pm:

So changing Sunday rates to that of Saturday rates is a great evil?

It's not, but they shouldn't be reducing the pay overall. I tend to agree there isn't much difference between Saturday and Sunday, so the rates should probably be the same, but they should be a median point between Saturday and Sunday.

Kytro wrote on Dec 24^th, 2015 at 8:44am:

mariacostel wrote on Dec 23rd, 2015 at 4:04pm: So changing Sunday rates to that of Saturday rates is a great evil? It's not, but they shouldn't be reducing the pay overall. I tend to agree there isn't much difference between Saturday and Sunday, so the rates should probably be the same, but they should be a median point between Saturday and Sunday.

The day shouldn't matter one iota.  It's the demand & supply for the labour.

Swagman wrote on Dec 24^th, 2015 at 9:22am:

Kytro wrote on Dec 24th, 2015 at 8:44am: mariacostel wrote on Dec 23rd, 2015 at 4:04pm: So changing Sunday rates to that of Saturday rates is a great evil? It's not, but they shouldn't be reducing the pay overall. I tend to agree there isn't much difference between Saturday and Sunday, so the rates should probably be the same, but they should be a median point between Saturday and Sunday. The day shouldn't matter one iota.  It's the demand & supply for the labour.

You don't know much about penalty rates, do you? (of course you don't)

It's ALL about the day.

Penalty rates compensate people for working unsocial hours.

i.e. weekends, and evenings.

greggerypeccary wrote on Dec 24^th, 2015 at 9:26am:

Swagman wrote on Dec 24th, 2015 at 9:22am: Kytro wrote on Dec 24th, 2015 at 8:44am: mariacostel wrote on Dec 23rd, 2015 at 4:04pm: So changing Sunday rates to that of Saturday rates is a great evil? It's not, but they shouldn't be reducing the pay overall. I tend to agree there isn't much difference between Saturday and Sunday, so the rates should probably be the same, but they should be a median point between Saturday and Sunday. The day shouldn't matter one iota.  It's the demand & supply for the labour. You don't know much about penalty rates, do you? (of course you don't) It's ALL about the day. Penalty rates compensate people for working unsocial hours. i.e. weekends, and evenings.

Penalty rates compensate AND incentivise this process.

Funnily enough, employees perform better under these conditions.

Lisa Jones wrote on Dec 24^th, 2015 at 9:31am:

greggerypeccary wrote on Dec 24th, 2015 at 9:26am: Swagman wrote on Dec 24th, 2015 at 9:22am: Kytro wrote on Dec 24th, 2015 at 8:44am: mariacostel wrote on Dec 23rd, 2015 at 4:04pm: So changing Sunday rates to that of Saturday rates is a great evil? It's not, but they shouldn't be reducing the pay overall. I tend to agree there isn't much difference between Saturday and Sunday, so the rates should probably be the same, but they should be a median point between Saturday and Sunday. The day shouldn't matter one iota.  It's the demand & supply for the labour. You don't know much about penalty rates, do you? (of course you don't) It's ALL about the day. Penalty rates compensate people for working unsocial hours. i.e. weekends, and evenings. Penalty rates compensate AND incentivise this process. Funnily enough, employees perform better under these conditions.

Indeed.

If a worker's penalty rates are taken away from them, are they going to be:

a) more enthusiastic about work?

b) less enthusiastic about work?

c) the same?

d) happy?

e) apathetic?


http://i.stack.imgur.com/eIfpq.png

Swagman wrote on Dec 24^th, 2015 at 9:22am:

Kytro wrote on Dec 24th, 2015 at 8:44am: mariacostel wrote on Dec 23rd, 2015 at 4:04pm: So changing Sunday rates to that of Saturday rates is a great evil? It's not, but they shouldn't be reducing the pay overall. I tend to agree there isn't much difference between Saturday and Sunday, so the rates should probably be the same, but they should be a median point between Saturday and Sunday. The day shouldn't matter one iota.  It's the demand & supply for the labour.

That's not how we do things in Australia, the vast majority of Australians don't want to either.

greggerypeccary wrote on Dec 24^th, 2015 at 9:36am:

Lisa Jones wrote on Dec 24th, 2015 at 9:31am: greggerypeccary wrote on Dec 24th, 2015 at 9:26am: Swagman wrote on Dec 24th, 2015 at 9:22am: Kytro wrote on Dec 24th, 2015 at 8:44am: mariacostel wrote on Dec 23rd, 2015 at 4:04pm: So changing Sunday rates to that of Saturday rates is a great evil? It's not, but they shouldn't be reducing the pay overall. I tend to agree there isn't much difference between Saturday and Sunday, so the rates should probably be the same, but they should be a median point between Saturday and Sunday. The day shouldn't matter one iota.  It's the demand & supply for the labour. You don't know much about penalty rates, do you? (of course you don't) It's ALL about the day. Penalty rates compensate people for working unsocial hours. i.e. weekends, and evenings. Penalty rates compensate AND incentivise this process. Funnily enough, employees perform better under these conditions. Indeed. If a worker's penalty rates are taken away from them, are they going to be: a) more enthusiastic about work? b) less enthusiastic about work? c) the same? d) happy? e) apathetic? http://i.stack.imgur.com/eIfpq.png

Yep .

And I'm speaking from personal experience too.

Lisa Jones wrote on Dec 24^th, 2015 at 9:42am:

greggerypeccary wrote on Dec 24th, 2015 at 9:36am: Lisa Jones wrote on Dec 24th, 2015 at 9:31am: greggerypeccary wrote on Dec 24th, 2015 at 9:26am: Swagman wrote on Dec 24th, 2015 at 9:22am: Kytro wrote on Dec 24th, 2015 at 8:44am: mariacostel wrote on Dec 23rd, 2015 at 4:04pm: So changing Sunday rates to that of Saturday rates is a great evil? It's not, but they shouldn't be reducing the pay overall. I tend to agree there isn't much difference between Saturday and Sunday, so the rates should probably be the same, but they should be a median point between Saturday and Sunday. The day shouldn't matter one iota.  It's the demand & supply for the labour. You don't know much about penalty rates, do you? (of course you don't) It's ALL about the day. Penalty rates compensate people for working unsocial hours. i.e. weekends, and evenings. Penalty rates compensate AND incentivise this process. Funnily enough, employees perform better under these conditions. Indeed. If a worker's penalty rates are taken away from them, are they going to be: a) more enthusiastic about work? b) less enthusiastic about work? c) the same? d) happy? e) apathetic? http://i.stack.imgur.com/eIfpq.png Yep . And I'm speaking from personal experience too.

They work sundays at the school tuck shop?

Dnarever wrote on Dec 24^th, 2015 at 7:51am:

mariacostel wrote on Dec 24th, 2015 at 6:01am: If you are being bullied by union members for not being in a union then you are effectively being bullied by a union. if you cannot see that then... I am not surprised. Justified criticism from work mates falls way short of bullying and even though they are union members they have no official union standing. It is not the same thing and it is not what was originally stated. These are just people who can see that they are spending money to get a result and that these others are sponging  off them or probably more accurately bludging on them. They take all the benefits but refuse to contribute to the process. These people are bludgers and it is understandable that their work mates question the integrity of their actions.

You just cant help yourself 'justified' as if the industrial conditions of today are entirely the product of todays unions. The real work was done many decades ago long before you were even born. Stop claiming ownership of something you had nothing to do with.  Paying union dues does not give you that ownership.

I argue there is a difference between Saturday and Sunday.

Saturday night is the "major night" of the week for people, it's when everything is on, it's when most people go out, it's when big events happen.

Having to go to to bed early on Saturday to wake up and work early Sunday does cut into important leisure and social time.

Another point lost here I think is how rostering often is done in a way that doesn't even feel like you get days off. Often you will get a tuesday off and a friday off. When you get rostered days off separate from each other especially during the week it often feels like you have no time to really relax or do anything, you can't enjoy night life, all your friends in 9-5 jobs are working, it's hard to plan things out and you're rushing around to get things done in a single day.

I think penalty rates is also an incentive for employers to give employees weekends off, not just two random days.

Kiron22 wrote on Dec 24^th, 2015 at 10:46am:

I argue there is a difference between Saturday and Sunday. Saturday night is the "major night" of the week for people, it's when everything is on, it's when most people go out, it's when big events happen. Having to go to to bed early on Saturday to wake up and work early Sunday does cut into important leisure and social time. Another point lost here I think is how rostering often is done in a way that doesn't even feel like you get days off. Often you will get a tuesday off and a friday off. When you get rostered days off separate from each other especially during the week it often feels like you have no time to really relax or do anything, you can't enjoy night life, all your friends in 9-5 jobs are working, it's hard to plan things out and you're rushing around to get things done in a single day. I think penalty rates is also an incentive for employers to give employees weekends off, not just two random days.

I don't think the difference is big enough to justify the difference in rates, but I do think the value of the weekend overall is still high.  So merge the rates into a single rate more than Saturday and less than Sunday.

I'll bet the businesses won't oblige, because what they want is a reduction in costs, not a reflection of value.

mariacostel wrote on Dec 24^th, 2015 at 10:26am:

Dnarever wrote on Dec 24th, 2015 at 7:51am: mariacostel wrote on Dec 24th, 2015 at 6:01am: If you are being bullied by union members for not being in a union then you are effectively being bullied by a union. if you cannot see that then... I am not surprised. Justified criticism from work mates falls way short of bullying and even though they are union members they have no official union standing. It is not the same thing and it is not what was originally stated. These are just people who can see that they are spending money to get a result and that these others are sponging  off them or probably more accurately bludging on them. They take all the benefits but refuse to contribute to the process. These people are bludgers and it is understandable that their work mates question the integrity of their actions. You just cant help yourself 'justified' as if the industrial conditions of today are entirely the product of todays unions. The real work was done many decades ago long before you were even born. Stop claiming ownership of something you had nothing to do with.  Paying union dues does not give you that ownership.

Its about preserving the legacy left and its a continual fight everytime negotiations come around and the parasitic CCI looking for grey areas through wording in EBA's while people like yourself enjoy weekends , holidays and a myriad of other things that make your life better whilst you whine about our unions . Dont thank that imaginary fairy in the sky 2mrw when you're sitting with your family eating lunch , thank the unions.

Swagman wrote on Dec 24^th, 2015 at 8:11am:

So they get 15 months more employment which is better than 15 months unemployment. Maybe they can get work up in QLD or in the N/W NSW where new coal mines are being established.  Plenty of jobs will become available providing the Greenswine quit their ideological terrorism.

Then they lose entitlments more than the equivalent of the wages they had worked for.

Kytro wrote on Dec 24^th, 2015 at 10:49am:

I don't think the difference is big enough to justify the difference in rates ...

Hmmm, I disagree.

I think there's a big difference between Sundays and Saturdays.

Sundays & Public Holidays should continue to attract a higher penalty rate.

mariacostel wrote on Dec 24^th, 2015 at 10:26am:

Dnarever wrote on Dec 24th, 2015 at 7:51am: mariacostel wrote on Dec 24th, 2015 at 6:01am: If you are being bullied by union members for not being in a union then you are effectively being bullied by a union. if you cannot see that then... I am not surprised. Justified criticism from work mates falls way short of bullying and even though they are union members they have no official union standing. It is not the same thing and it is not what was originally stated. These are just people who can see that they are spending money to get a result and that these others are sponging  off them or probably more accurately bludging on them. They take all the benefits but refuse to contribute to the process. These people are bludgers and it is understandable that their work mates question the integrity of their actions. You just cant help yourself 'justified' as if the industrial conditions of today are entirely the product of todays unions. The real work was done many decades ago long before you were even born. Stop claiming ownership of something you had nothing to do with.  Paying union dues does not give you that ownership.

Paying union dues does not give you that ownership

Not paying certainly doesn't.

Besides I was primarily referring to current improvements at the time.

mariacostel wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 4:04pm:

So changing Sunday rates to that of Saturday rates is a great evil?

You arguing in favour of a moderate evil ?

Kiron22 wrote on Dec 24^th, 2015 at 10:46am:

I argue there is a difference between Saturday and Sunday. Saturday night is the "major night" of the week for people, it's when everything is on, it's when most people go out, it's when big events happen. Having to go to to bed early on Saturday to wake up and work early Sunday does cut into important leisure and social time. Another point lost here I think is how rostering often is done in a way that doesn't even feel like you get days off. Often you will get a tuesday off and a friday off. When you get rostered days off separate from each other especially during the week it often feels like you have no time to really relax or do anything, you can't enjoy night life, all your friends in 9-5 jobs are working, it's hard to plan things out and you're rushing around to get things done in a single day. I think penalty rates is also an incentive for employers to give employees weekends off, not just two random days.

It's called 'work' for a reason.

greggerypeccary wrote on Dec 24^th, 2015 at 9:26am:

Swagman wrote on Dec 24th, 2015 at 9:22am: Kytro wrote on Dec 24th, 2015 at 8:44am: mariacostel wrote on Dec 23rd, 2015 at 4:04pm: So changing Sunday rates to that of Saturday rates is a great evil? It's not, but they shouldn't be reducing the pay overall. I tend to agree there isn't much difference between Saturday and Sunday, so the rates should probably be the same, but they should be a median point between Saturday and Sunday. The day shouldn't matter one iota.  It's the demand & supply for the labour. You don't know much about penalty rates, do you? (of course you don't) It's ALL about the day. Penalty rates compensate people for working unsocial hours. i.e. weekends, and evenings.

Weekends and evenings are not necessarily "unsociable" to everyone, so that argument is absolute nonsense.

You comrades are supposed to be 'Progressives'?

Think progressively and stop living in the 1960s  :D

Swagman wrote on Dec 24^th, 2015 at 11:47am:

greggerypeccary wrote on Dec 24th, 2015 at 9:26am: Swagman wrote on Dec 24th, 2015 at 9:22am: Kytro wrote on Dec 24th, 2015 at 8:44am: mariacostel wrote on Dec 23rd, 2015 at 4:04pm: So changing Sunday rates to that of Saturday rates is a great evil? It's not, but they shouldn't be reducing the pay overall. I tend to agree there isn't much difference between Saturday and Sunday, so the rates should probably be the same, but they should be a median point between Saturday and Sunday. The day shouldn't matter one iota.  It's the demand & supply for the labour. You don't know much about penalty rates, do you? (of course you don't) It's ALL about the day. Penalty rates compensate people for working unsocial hours. i.e. weekends, and evenings. Weekends and evenings are not necessarily "unsociable" to everyone, so that argument is absolute nonsense.

They are unsocial hours for most people.

Thus, we have penalty rates to compensate anyone who works those rosters.

Swagman wrote on Dec 24^th, 2015 at 11:47am:

Think progressively and stop living in the 1960s

Cutting the wages of millions of workers is not progressive.

I was watching a broadcast on this issue the other day. It applies to people in hospitality and not for paramedics for example. Why? Let's hope the unions show some spine and stop this rubbish. I doubt it though. They are useless.

the good ole boys wrote on Dec 24^th, 2015 at 11:54am:

It applies to people in hospitality and not for paramedics for example. Why?

Easy targets.


the good ole boys wrote on Dec 24^th, 2015 at 11:54am:

Let's hope the unions show some spine and stop this rubbish. I doubt it though. They are useless.

"Unions have vowed to unleash a "fierce" grassroots and social media campaign against any federal government attempt to cut penalty rates, which they say will be bigger than the Your Rights at Work campaign that neutered the former Howard government in 2007."

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/unions-to-revive-workchoices-if-turnbull-cuts-penalty-rates-20150927-gjvsf4.html

http://www.australianunions.org.au/saveourweekend_petition

http://protectpenaltyrates.org.au/christmas/

I would like to see employees vote with their feet and close down all these businesses to teach them the lesson they deserve.

Then nobody would be drinking coffee on the weekends or shopping at Woolworths or Kmart.

Dnarever wrote on Dec 24^th, 2015 at 12:35pm:

I would like to see employees vote with their feet and close down all these businesses to teach them the lesson they deserve. Then nobody would be drinking coffee on the weekends or shopping at Woolworths or Kmart.

Yes, it would be good to see.

The bullying is just going to get worse.

I was in a CBD Woolworths 10 minutes ago, and I witnessed an employee being bullied into working on Boxing Day.

The manager lied to the poor girl and told her that it was compulsory to work on Boxing Day for all staff.

Workers in retail and hospitality get a raw deal most days of the week.

Removing penalty rates is just gonna make a crappy job shittier.

Swagman wrote on Dec 24^th, 2015 at 11:47am:

Weekends and evenings are not necessarily "unsociable" to everyone, so that argument is absolute nonsense.

Yet in over 40 years of involvement in shift work I never found anyone who agreed with this assessment or anyone who would have voluntarily worked shifts if not for penalty rates.

That is nobody -  zilch - a big zero - ducks eggs.

https://www.betterhealth.vic.gov.au/health/healthyliving/shiftwork

Certainly doing shiftwork has negative effects on health and lifestyle. Should this attract penalty rates?

stunspore wrote on Dec 24^th, 2015 at 2:43pm:

https://www.betterhealth.vic.gov.au/health/healthyliving/shiftwork Certainly doing shiftwork has negative effects on health and lifestyle. Should this attract penalty rates?

Shift workers get a shift allowance.

Down the club tonight.... day off.... chatted up a favourite.. she said her hubby was working at Coles tonight..... saws him later when I went shopping for the necessities... prawns, ice cream, you know... he said he would be working on Saturday, Boxing Day... but because MONDAY was the allocated public holiday.. he would be paid normal rates for Saturday...

He blames the government with all their chicaneries.... so do I....

Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM wrote on Dec 24^th, 2015 at 9:38pm:

Down the club tonight.... day off.... chatted up a favourite.. she said her hubby was working at Coles tonight..... saws him later when I went shopping for the necessities... prawns, ice cream, you know... he said he would be working on Saturday, Boxing Day... but because MONDAY was the allocated public holiday.. he would be paid normal rates for Saturday... He blames the government with all their chicaneries.... so do I....

I worked a number of xmas days on weekends in the same situation - got paid normal rates for the shift.

greggerypeccary wrote on Dec 24^th, 2015 at 2:46pm:

stunspore wrote on Dec 24th, 2015 at 2:43pm: https://www.betterhealth.vic.gov.au/health/healthyliving/shiftwork Certainly doing shiftwork has negative effects on health and lifestyle. Should this attract penalty rates? Shift workers get a shift allowance.

Wonder how much one's health is worth...

Dnarever wrote on Dec 24^th, 2015 at 1:30pm:

Swagman wrote on Dec 24th, 2015 at 11:47am: Weekends and evenings are not necessarily "unsociable" to everyone, so that argument is absolute nonsense. Yet in over 40 years of involvement in shift work I never found anyone who agreed with this assessment or anyone who would have voluntarily worked shifts if not for penalty rates. That is nobody -  zilch - a big zero - ducks eggs.

So in your 40 years of shift work you produced double or 1.5 times or whatever the union determined was an appropriate rate to what your mates produced on normal time?

Dnarever wrote on Dec 24^th, 2015 at 12:35pm:

I would like to see employees vote with their feet and close down all these businesses to teach them the lesson they deserve. Then nobody would be drinking coffee on the weekends or shopping at Woolworths or Kmart.

...and nobody would be working.

Who's going to pay for the dole?

One should not assume that just because someone is unemployed, that they want to work weekends without the penalty rates.   :( 

Swagman wrote on Dec 24^th, 2015 at 11:59pm:

Dnarever wrote on Dec 24th, 2015 at 1:30pm: Swagman wrote on Dec 24th, 2015 at 11:47am: Weekends and evenings are not necessarily "unsociable" to everyone, so that argument is absolute nonsense. Yet in over 40 years of involvement in shift work I never found anyone who agreed with this assessment or anyone who would have voluntarily worked shifts if not for penalty rates. That is nobody -  zilch - a big zero - ducks eggs. So in your 40 years of shift work you produced double or 1.5 times or whatever the union determined was an appropriate rate to what your mates produced on normal time?

A business would have justified the cost of paying a worker more for those shifts specifically because it actually provides net benefit/profit.

You don't have to produce more on the weekend, if the net profit actually justifies the cost.  If it didn't then that is poor management/business decision. 

An example/hypothetical that Swag and others like to use: sort of like a cafe who earns most of its revenue on Sat/Sun -> you would hire staff with penalty rates specifically as this is where break even/profit occurs.

Just how many more "coffees" can one sell on the weekend before market saturation because you hired more staff at lower rates?

stunspore wrote on Dec 24^th, 2015 at 11:12pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Dec 24th, 2015 at 2:46pm: stunspore wrote on Dec 24th, 2015 at 2:43pm: https://www.betterhealth.vic.gov.au/health/healthyliving/shiftwork Certainly doing shiftwork has negative effects on health and lifestyle. Should this attract penalty rates? Shift workers get a shift allowance. Wonder how much one's health is worth...

You lefties think its worth nothing as you refuse to pay anything for it...... :D

Swagman wrote on Dec 25^th, 2015 at 10:17am:

stunspore wrote on Dec 24th, 2015 at 11:12pm: greggerypeccary wrote on Dec 24th, 2015 at 2:46pm: stunspore wrote on Dec 24th, 2015 at 2:43pm: https://www.betterhealth.vic.gov.au/health/healthyliving/shiftwork Certainly doing shiftwork has negative effects on health and lifestyle. Should this attract penalty rates? Shift workers get a shift allowance. Wonder how much one's health is worth... You lefties think its worth nothing as you refuse to pay anything for it...... :D

Neither does Bossy.... Bossy wants to lower the price of health and happiness so as to increase profit...

That kind of leadership will get you sleeping with a grenade every night of the week.... don't laugh... we may soon see a return of the Molly Maguires.

wrote on Dec 25^th, 2015 at 7:10am:

One should not assume that just because someone is unemployed, that they want to work weekends without the penalty rates.   :(

......and equally, one should not assume that they don't.

wrote on Dec 25^th, 2015 at 7:10am:

One should not assume that just because someone is unemployed, that they want to work weekends without the penalty rates.   :(

wouldnt dream of it mate???>...we even know of people that refuse to catch a bus to work.. if its not on the corner they couldnt possibly  do it..

its not unusual today...

sadly we have created a monster... jobs now have to fit in with those who cant be bothered.....its all to easy.

and if you should want me to work on a Sat Sun... pay me double ...as everyone knows its harder to lift a cup on a Sat and Sunday than a Monday or Tues....

everyone knows that.

what a pity mums dont get double time.. wouldnt that be something.. :D :D

800,000 unemployed speak otherwise about people being picky about work...

Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM wrote on Dec 25^th, 2015 at 5:43pm:

800,000 unemployed speak otherwise about people being picky about work...

Using raw numbers rather than % based can be misleading.

Swagman wrote on Dec 25^th, 2015 at 10:33am:

wrote on Dec 25th, 2015 at 7:10am: One should not assume that just because someone is unemployed, that they want to work weekends without the penalty rates.   :(  ......and equally, one should not assume that they don't.

those that want to are still free to work.

stunspore wrote on Dec 25^th, 2015 at 7:28pm:

Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM wrote on Dec 25th, 2015 at 5:43pm: 800,000 unemployed speak otherwise about people being picky about work... Using raw numbers rather than % based can be misleading.

800,000 unemployed plus an estimated times two under-employed out of a workforce of twelve million... easy..... close to 20%.... then there are those who job-jump all the time thus cluttering up the system for those seeking work..... amazing...

That's better, Grap.  Easier to relate to those figure.  I prob wonder the relative accuracy but sure I will take it on blind faith.

stunspore wrote on Dec 25^th, 2015 at 11:31pm:

That's better, Grap.  Easier to relate to those figure.  I prob wonder the relative accuracy but sure I will take it on blind faith.

Can only estimate the 'under-employed' - no hard figures... and the waters are sullied by the endless parade of job shifters who move from one job to another, so it's very hard to get a real focus on unemployment and job placement.

I mean - how many machine operators move from (as I saw myself) the Sydney Olympic site to the Sydney-Brisbane super-highway job?  Not a new job created but a lot of jobs transferred...... one lost = one gained by the same person... no NET increase in employment or 'jobs created' in reality.

I get sick of the propaganda about 'creating jobs'.. utter bullshit.

BTW - both those major construction jobs were out of the public purse.. which raises the question of how much 'priming' government really has to do to even level peg with jobs..... serious issue right there.

Swagman wrote on Dec 24^th, 2015 at 11:59pm:

Dnarever wrote on Dec 24th, 2015 at 1:30pm: Swagman wrote on Dec 24th, 2015 at 11:47am: Weekends and evenings are not necessarily "unsociable" to everyone, so that argument is absolute nonsense. Yet in over 40 years of involvement in shift work I never found anyone who agreed with this assessment or anyone who would have voluntarily worked shifts if not for penalty rates. That is nobody -  zilch - a big zero - ducks eggs. So in your 40 years of shift work you produced double or 1.5 times or whatever the union determined was an appropriate rate to what your mates produced on normal time?

Often covering indecent hours isn't about productivity but about coverage, it isn't only coffee shops where penalty rates occur.

In many areas productivity is known to suffer in out of normal hours work, this tends to happen for very good reasons.

I can also think of at least 1 example when the after normal hours performance was dramatically greater than normal hours in terms of an effective customer repair service, but this is not typical.