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Member Run Boards >> Philosophy >> Exodus from Egypt - is it just a myth, or history http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1441324767 Message started by Yadda on Sep 4th, 2015 at 9:59am |
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Title: Exodus from Egypt - is it just a myth, or history Post by Yadda on Sep 4th, 2015 at 9:59am The Exodus from Egypt - is it just a myth, or is it history ? Patterns of Evidence: Exodus .....Is a new [2014] documentary film, asking; Is there archaeological evidence for the Bible Exodus account which has not been examined/acknowledged ? This VFTB YT is an interview with film maker Timothy Mahoney.... VFTB 261: Timothy Mahoney - Patterns of Evidence: Exodus https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWrfc-KMU4U The significant bits..... The six major patterns [are outlined] 10 m 50 s The history of Egypt was used to discredit the Bible story [of Israel, in Egypt] 15 m 15 s Students in universities today are being taught that the Bible story of Israel, in Egypt, is a faerie tale ['there is no archaeology'] 16 m 54 s The Bible asserts that the Bible record is, history. But if the Bible narrative [the history of Israel, in Egypt] is not a history [n.b. a history which was referred to by no lesser person than Jesus], then our faith is a sham 17 m 35 s Jesus quoted the Old Testament continually, and he quoted Deuteronomy more than any other book 21 m 35 s The biblical story of the presence of Israel [in Egypt] and the exodus of Israel [from Egypt], is not found in Egypt's archaeological history, ...because the evidence of the presence and exodus of Israel, is within a 'wrong' time period. [the evidence is within a period of archaeological history, which archaeologists have identified as a 'wrong' time period for those possible event(s)] 26 m 00 s But in fact, an archaeologist has identified the dwelling [a palace] and a tomb of an important person, a ruler, who was not an Egyptian, who was a Semitic person, and he was buried alongside 11 other major tombs 26 m 55 s see also... Patterns of Evidence: Exodus - Full Trailer https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2assFIyLInE . Quote:
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imdb review... http://www.imdb.com/title/tt3464018/ http://www.imdb.com/title/tt3464018/reviews?ref_=tt_urv Quote:
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Title: Re: Exodus from Egypt - is it just a myth, or history Post by Stratos on Sep 4th, 2015 at 10:40am
Historicity of such claims is an interest of mine, so I'll watch this when i get home (and not waste my entire month's mobile data on it :P)
I'll be very interested in if there is anything new on this topic however, as so far there has only been a clear lack of evidence for the Biblical account of the exodus. That isn't to say it is impossible that the some Jewish people left Egypt at some time and the tale got exaggerated, but there is no evidence for millions of Jews living in Egypt, or the plagues or anything like that at all. Yadda wrote on Sep 4th, 2015 at 9:59am:
These are two separate things. Like I said, my position is not that couldn't have happened, it is that there is no evidence to suggest that it occurred as the Bible story tells it. I'll look forward to see what evidence they provide when i get a chance to watch it, but I'm not holding my breath. Millions of Jewish people wandering around for 40 years and inhabiting Egypt, apocalyptic plagues, and an entire army drowned in the Red Sea definitely should have historical evidence if they happened, i'll just have to wait and see what they come up with. |
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Title: Re: Exodus from Egypt - is it just a myth, or history Post by Yadda on Sep 4th, 2015 at 11:37am Skepticism is a healthy trait, imo. But a faux skepticism becomes corrosive and damaging, if a faux skepticism is being employed, so as to reject what is true, simply in order to defend an indefensible [and corrupt/false] worldview. That is, 'skepticism' can also be a tool used by rogues and cowards. John 12:42 Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue: 43 For they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God. |
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Title: Re: Exodus from Egypt - is it just a myth, or history Post by Bojack Horseman on Sep 4th, 2015 at 11:40am
Is there any actual evidence of this?
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Title: Re: Exodus from Egypt - is it just a myth, or history Post by Yadda on Sep 4th, 2015 at 11:45am Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Sep 4th, 2015 at 11:40am:
That you are a rogue ? Yes. |
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Title: Re: Exodus from Egypt - is it just a myth, or history Post by Bojack Horseman on Sep 4th, 2015 at 11:50am Yadda wrote on Sep 4th, 2015 at 11:45am:
No of the exodus. |
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Title: Re: Exodus from Egypt - is it just a myth, or history Post by Stratos on Sep 4th, 2015 at 12:45pm Yadda wrote on Sep 4th, 2015 at 11:37am:
So, speaking as someone who thinks skepticism is a healthy trait, on what evidence are you assuming that the Biblical account of the exodus is true (assuming of course that you do) |
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Title: Re: Exodus from Egypt - is it just a myth, or history Post by Yadda on Sep 4th, 2015 at 9:14pm Stratos wrote on Sep 4th, 2015 at 12:45pm:
I have not one shred of communicable evidence, of the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob intervening in this physical world. But i do personally believe that God does, has, and can, intervene in the affairs of men, ....coz, i'm a very gullible person. :P http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1396315783/327#327 But i am happy for other people to believe whatever they want to believe. [....barring the occasion that they believe that they have a right to murder me, or those i love]. I am not responsible, for what other people choose to believe. And i am not responsible, for the choices which other people make. I am responsible for what i believe, and for all of the good and the poor choices which i make. Psalms 23:1 The LORD is my shepherd; I shall not want. 2 He maketh me to lie down in green pastures: he leadeth me beside the still waters. 3 He restoreth my soul: he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name's sake. 4 Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me. 5 Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies: thou anointest my head with oil; my cup runneth over. 6 Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the LORD for ever. Yadda said, somewhere..... Quote:
"The Bible will keep you from sin, or sin will keep you from the Bible." Dwight L. Moody (American Evangelist, 1837-1899) |
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Title: Re: Exodus from Egypt - is it just a myth, or history Post by Yadda on Sep 4th, 2015 at 9:19pm Stratos wrote on Sep 4th, 2015 at 12:45pm:
You want evidence ? Search it out. .....yourself. And then, ....believe whatever you want to believe. |
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Title: Re: Exodus from Egypt - is it just a myth, or history Post by Stratos on Sep 4th, 2015 at 10:11pm Yadda wrote on Sep 4th, 2015 at 9:19pm:
I am undecided. I don't believe it happened because there is (as far as I know) no evidence to suggest a Biblical exodus. If such evidence presents itself I would have no problem accepting it. |
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Title: Re: Exodus from Egypt - is it just a myth, or history Post by issuevoter on Sep 7th, 2015 at 11:38am
When you ask, is it myth, or history, you asking for an opinion, right? Otherwise, someone would plonk down indisputable records all cross referenced, and that would be the end of that.
So, opinion: Like a lot of things in the Bible, there is probably some actual basis for the story. I would think the details were quite another matter. You have to remember, they didn't have TV, so they sat around at night and made up stories. And as we all know, there is no point ruining a good yarn with the truth. |
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Title: Re: Exodus from Egypt - is it just a myth, or history Post by Yadda on Sep 13th, 2015 at 12:36am Viewing again, the official Trailer for the documentary [YT link below].... The documentary Trailer suggests that the mainstream body of archaeologists today, are of the opinion that Joshua could not have destroyed Jericho. How so ? Quote:
Patterns of Evidence: Exodus - Full Trailer goto 1m 53s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2assFIyLInE < ----------- It seems an obvious and reasonable question to ask, in trying to piece together an ancient 'jig-saw puzzle'. The implication being made in the trailer, is that the mainstream body of archaeologists seem to want to avoid the possible 'consequence', of exploring all obvious possible questions, relating to the possibility of the presence of Israel, in Egypt ? Why so ? Well, i can think of at least one very good reason ! Also in the documentary trailer, someone suggests, at..... 2m 43s "....Look at your evidence, and then come to a conclusion based on the evidence." Q. But how scientific [and credible!] has the archaeological process in Egyptian archaeology been, if mainstream archaeology HAS BEEN UNWILLING TO ASK obvious questions, about what existing archaeological evidences may actually imply and support, relating to the possibility of the presence of Israel, in Egypt ? . To me, it seems likely, that supposedly 'professional' archaeologists [tainted with their own atheist prejudices] have refused [and continue to refuse] to consider, and acknowledge, archaeological evidences, which could directly point to a presence and exodus, of Israel, in and from Egypt. Q. And why is it likely, that those 'professional' archaeologists, have refused [and continue to refuse] to consider, and acknowledge, archaeological evidences, which seem to point to a presence and exodus, of Israel, from Egypt ???? A. Because the whole mainstream body of archaeologists seem to be unwilling to give those evidences [which may confirm a biblical account] an impartial assessment [if the conclusion of such an assessment would clash with the current, and POLITICALLY CORRECT, mainstream [i.e. atheist] assessment of those evidences]. And, because no individual mainstream archaeologist is willing to chance his future career prospects, by 'flying such a flag'. It's 'Modern Science', you see! Atheistic, 'Modern Science'. 'As a preposition; We already know, for certain, that there is no God! So if there is archaeological evidence which has been gathered, which could point to, and support a biblical account, of an exodus, of Israel, from Egypt, ....then [obviously!!!] the archaeological evidence which could support such a conclusion, is being examined and analysed incorrectly!' That is how 'Modern Science' works! :P What is current mainstream, and current politically correct, is reinforced by the high priesthood of any particular scientific discipline. And with such an approach to examining evidence, that, is how 'Modern Science' is always able to come to the 'correct' conclusion, when examining archaeological evidence ! i.e. Firstly, always eliminate consideration of any obviously wrong and obviously absurd [i.e. 'un-scientific'] conclusion. Then, re-examine and re-analyse the available evidence But moving on; If you don't accept my cynical appraisal of the 'scientific' archaeological process that has taken place in Egypt, well ok. But i would still encourage you to acquire and view the Patterns of Evidence: Exodus DVD for yourself. If you do not want to purchase the DVD yourself, go to your local public library, with the details of the DVD, and ask the atheist librarian, if the library service would consider purchasing the Patterns of Evidence: Exodus DVD. And i'm sure p.s. I myself, have not viewed the full documentary yet. But i have ordered the DVD. 2 Peter 3:4 .....Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. |
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Title: Re: Exodus from Egypt - is it just a myth, or history Post by Stratos on Sep 13th, 2015 at 7:50am
Oh right, so it must be a giant conspiracy because they disagree with a DVD you haven't even seen yet.
I'll be interested to see what they actually have. |
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Title: Re: Exodus from Egypt - is it just a myth, or history Post by Yadda on Sep 13th, 2015 at 12:33pm Stratos wrote on Sep 13th, 2015 at 7:50am:
Yadda wrote on Sep 4th, 2015 at 11:37am:
But when he is skeptical about the opinions of experts and academics, that Yadda is a 'giant conspiracy' nut. . Hey Stratos, And all of those government advisers and humanist academics, with university degrees, also insist that; "ISLAM is a peaceful and tolerant faith!" And of course, it is too ! That's right, eh. :D Have no fear Stratos, in the fullness of time, 'the truth will out'. |
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Title: Re: Exodus from Egypt - is it just a myth, or history Post by Yadda on Sep 27th, 2015 at 11:14pm Patterns of Evidence: Exodus - Full Trailer https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2assFIyLInE I watched the DVD last week. It seems apparent that there is very real archaeological evidence, that has been unearthed, that supports the biblical account that Israel were present in Egypt. And that there is very real archaeological evidence that supports the biblical account, which means that it very well could have been Israel and Joshua, who destroyed the ancient city of Jericho. Then why won't mainstream archaeologists acknowledge that unearthed evidence, which suggests and supports the biblical account, that Israel were present in Egypt ? Well, put very simply, most mainstream archaeologists seem to have a mind to not acknowledge that/the unearthed evidence, as being evidence relating to the biblical accounts. Do i recommend the DVD to you ? Yes. The DVD is a very professional effort, which openly challenges mainstream archaeologists to re-examine the conclusions which their predecessors have previously 'set in concrete' [concerning evidences that have been unearthed]. |
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Title: Re: Exodus from Egypt - is it just a myth, or history Post by Stratos on Oct 1st, 2015 at 1:23pm Yadda wrote on Sep 27th, 2015 at 11:14pm:
Interesting! What would say was the most convincing discovery that supports the Biblical account from the DVD? |
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Title: Re: Exodus from Egypt - is it just a myth, or history Post by Yadda on Oct 2nd, 2015 at 8:18am Stratos wrote on Oct 1st, 2015 at 1:23pm:
Stratos, The most compelling argument, THE FAIR ARGUMENT, .....for a reassessment [of the 'time period context'] of the very real archaeological evidence which has been already uncovered in Egypt, ....is made, in the first 15 seconds of 'Patterns of Evidence: Exodus - Full Trailer' All of the archaeological evidence [which supports the ancient presence of 'Israel in Egypt'] has been already uncovered in Egypt. But at this time, mainstream archaeology is resolutely refusing to acknowledge that THEY [and their predecessors] could have been mistaken, in allotting specific [and wrong] time periods to the archaeological evidence [which has been uncovered in Egypt]. Watch the 'Full Trailer' [again]! Pay attention to what is being stated, and the argument which is being made, in the first 15 seconds of the 'Full Trailer'. IMAGE..... Patterns of Evidence: Exodus - Full Trailer https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2assFIyLInE Quote:
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Title: Re: Exodus from Egypt - is it just a myth, or history Post by Stratos on Oct 2nd, 2015 at 9:04am
Yadda, I'm asking what the evidence actually is, not just a claim that it has been found.
What has been unearthed that shows evidence for a historical exodus. Surely that was the whole point of the film yes? |
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Title: Re: Exodus from Egypt - is it just a myth, or history Post by Yadda on Oct 2nd, 2015 at 10:25am Stratos wrote on Oct 2nd, 2015 at 9:04am:
Well, i would suggest, that you watch the DVD yourself, Stratos. Stratos, The whole point of the documentary, was to present, 1/ the evidence and, 2/ the arguments. So, watch the DVD yourself. n.b. As suggested, in the documentary trailer, at..... 2m 43s "....Look at your evidence, and then come to a conclusion based on the evidence." Why are you 'posturing', to avoid that experience ? Is your excuse, that you do not have enough time, or money, to waste on such a venture ? If so; Then don't bother! . Yadda said.... http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1434160480/0#0 Quote:
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Title: Re: Exodus from Egypt - is it just a myth, or history Post by Stratos on Oct 2nd, 2015 at 12:10pm Yadda wrote on Oct 2nd, 2015 at 10:25am:
I plan to. But really? You won't offer a single piece of evidence they presented in it? The historicity of ancient events is a particular interest of mine, and I am genuinely curious as to what has been discovered. I'm also curious why you won't make even an attempt to explain what was found. |
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Title: Re: Exodus from Egypt - is it just a myth, or history Post by Stratos on Oct 2nd, 2015 at 3:53pm
I'm about half way through Yadda. I hope it has more, as this is incredibly flimsy.
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Title: Re: Exodus from Egypt - is it just a myth, or history Post by Stratos on Oct 3rd, 2015 at 7:50am
Well that was dissapointing.
I have to ask Yadda, did you find it presenting a convincing case? Because the only things that were really clearly demonstrated were incredibly dull aspects. It was interesting to see the evidence of Semites in Egypt though. |
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Title: Re: Exodus from Egypt - is it just a myth, or history Post by Yadda on Oct 3rd, 2015 at 10:53am Stratos wrote on Oct 3rd, 2015 at 7:50am:
Surprise, surprise. [....not] Stratos wrote on Oct 2nd, 2015 at 9:04am:
All of the principle evidences are identified [and revealed] in the trailer. Duh. But for something which is mentioned only on the DVD.... At 50 min 30 sec in the DVD, note the Brooklyn Papyrus evidence which is presented, confirming the presence of a substantial semite community in Egypt - AT A PARTICULAR TIME PERIOD. At 51 min 38 sec in the DVD; "This is real evidence for the time when the Israelites were in Egypt as slaves." And mentioned at 52 min 22 sec in the DVD; ....note well, the reason, that the Brooklyn Papyrus evidence is rejected by mainstream archaeologists! Duh ! Duh ! Duh ! LOL ;D AND SO; The archaeological evidence [for the Israelites in Egypt], is all there. That archaeological evidence, has already been uncovered. That archaeological evidence, has already been examined. But the evidence [for the Israelites being in Egypt] has been rejected, by men [i.e. by mankind]. Why so ? Because a proper conclusion, of what all the 'unearthed' evidence supports [i.e. the biblical account, of the Israelites existing, in Egypt, as slaves], does not fit in, with the self-aggrandising worldview of men. [i.e. such a conclusion [a proper conclusion, of what all the 'unearthed' evidence supports] violently conflicts, with the atheistic worldview which 'prevails' in this age] i.e. Atheists, mainstream archaeologists included, whose worldview [which is stated in their own professional, 'authoritative' conclusion of the archaeological evidences, evidences which have been uncovered in Egypt] proclaim - AND RECONFIRM - that it is mankind himself [i.e. themselves], that are 'confirmed' to be, the actual pinnacle of the 'self evident' evolutionary process ! LOL ;D Romans 1:22, 25 2 Thessalonians 2:4 !!!!!!! 1 Corinthians 3:16 . Yadda said.... Quote:
A challenge which mainstream archaeologists and mainstream archaeology has dismissed as being 'beneath them'. LOL ;D Such heady vanity, and self deception! How typical, of man. |
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Title: Re: Exodus from Egypt - is it just a myth, or history Post by Stratos on Oct 3rd, 2015 at 11:27am Yadda wrote on Oct 3rd, 2015 at 10:53am:
That was interesting. So you have evidence of one of the most mundane aspects of the Exodus story, which really should come as no surprise. But when evidence came to the more fantastical aspects of it, funnily enough there really wasn't anything there. Yadda wrote on Oct 3rd, 2015 at 10:53am:
I heard that quote (and just listened to it again to check) and then had a look. I couldn't find anyone who disagreed with the obvious conclusion (that there were Semitic slaves in Egypt). Yadda wrote on Oct 3rd, 2015 at 10:53am:
I'm pretty sure nobody has argued they weren't. But in terms of the extraordinary events of the Exodus account, there was pretty much nothing. Yadda wrote on Oct 3rd, 2015 at 10:53am:
It's on the wikipedia page for "semitic people". No need to overdramatise things you obviously haven't researched yourself. I'm not kidding, please look it up for yourself and see what is actually being claimed by archaeologists and historians in this regard. |
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Title: Re: Exodus from Egypt - is it just a myth, or history Post by Yadda on Oct 3rd, 2015 at 9:33pm Stratos wrote on Oct 3rd, 2015 at 11:27am:
Ah. So your argument is; AS A PREPOSITION IN FACT; There is no evidence of the existence of an interventionist creator God; Therefore any claims for "the extraordinary events of the Exodus...", that is, the fact of the Israelites, leaving Egypt and being aided by a 'supernatural' means, cannot be verified from any of the archaeological evidence which has been uncovered in Egypt. There is some evidence [in the form of an ancient document], of catastrophe events coming upon Egypt, but evidence that those events happened to Egypt, immediately prior to the Israelites leaving Egypt, clearly cannot be substantiated. Watch 1 hr 05 min 15 sec to 1 hr 14 min 35 sec, detailing evidence in the form of 'the writings of Ipuwer'. |
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Title: Re: Exodus from Egypt - is it just a myth, or history Post by Stratos on Oct 3rd, 2015 at 10:08pm Yadda wrote on Oct 3rd, 2015 at 9:33pm:
Yeah, funny how they focus entirely on the things that support the Biblical narrative, some two lines or so in a 26 verse prose, and completely ignore the rest, some of which is directly contradictory to the Bible (that is, if you take it as some kind of a historical document, which it doesn't claim to be by the way). I found a translation here Yadda, have a read sometime. http://www.reshafim.org.il/ad/egypt/texts/ipuwer.htm |
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Title: Re: Exodus from Egypt - is it just a myth, or history Post by Stratos on Oct 3rd, 2015 at 10:14pm Yadda wrote on Oct 3rd, 2015 at 9:33pm:
I have no problem thinking of Exodus as a myth based on an event in the past. What I don't buy is that the Bible is a historically accurate document, as there are countless times where it has been shown not to be. If it happened, and there is evidence to support that (through archaeology, historians etc.) then fair enough, you can make a good case that it happened. I'm not arguing that Semites didn't live in Egypt, but rather that there is no evidence that most of the remarkable things in the Bible there appears to be no evidence of (i.e. people living 500+ years, a global flood, an Exodus of 2 million people, Jesus existence) |
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Title: Re: Exodus from Egypt - is it just a myth, or history Post by The Grappler on Nov 28th, 2015 at 2:58am
Bloody ungrateful peasant workers - not content with their Lot - so they just have to strike over some silly religious idea and walk off the job for forty years... it's a wonder the pyramids ever got built under those conditions...
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