A very interesting discussion...


Ex Dame Pansi wrote on Jun 30^th, 2015 at 7:01pm:

freediver wrote on Jun 30th, 2015 at 6:35pm: A bigot is someone who disagrees with Greg. Same with Islamophobe. Ex Dame Pansi wrote on Jun 29th, 2015 at 6:34pm: Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jun 29th, 2015 at 6:18pm: Ex Dame Pansi wrote on Jun 29th, 2015 at 6:06pm: Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jun 29th, 2015 at 5:51pm: Abbott's damned if he does and damned if he doesn't do something. I know the Greens and some in the Labor party would love IS to take over, given they both hate Western civilisation. What do you prefer, buddy, Western values or IS values?  They don't. It's just a myth or maybe Andrew Bolt said it. Actually most of the ISIS fighters don't even like ISIS, they try to do a runner when they get half a chance. Maybe once all the fanatical Muslims have had a turn ISIS will disintegrate, give it time and stay calm. Who hates western civilisation? Please, just one person on this forum, come forward and confess your love for ISIS. Yawn. Is lying part of lefty DNA? Lefties come from every where to defend radicals, and they'll do it in the future again and again and again. No they don't. Lefties defend mainstream Muslims that are getting on with life, working, struggling to pay rent or mortgage, bringing up their children, going to their mosque (if the practice their faith) and so they should. What if in addition to this, they believe homosexuals should be executed? You mean like some of the right whingers on here? They're all talk. The fundamentalists of any religion will do you in if you look sideways at them. The only reason they need is that you're not one of them. The moderates might threaten it in church but they never carry through with it, they're just happy that eventually you'll come face to face with lucifer, that keeps them happy.

freediver wrote on Jul 1^st, 2015 at 6:49pm:

Ex Dame Pansi wrote on Jul 1st, 2015 at 7:38am: freediver wrote on Jun 30th, 2015 at 7:05pm: So Lefties defend "moderates" who merely desire to execute Gays but limit their propaganda to the appropriate place and are unlikely (you hope) to follow through? My idea of a moderate Muslim is your everyday variety, exactly the same as your moderate Christian..... pops into church once a week doesn't swear believes in God prays to God tries to obey the teachings lives a wholesome life So it is not actually any kind of moderation on their part, beyond refraining from personally killing people. Rather, leftists define moderate Muslims by being steadfastly ignorant of what those Muslims believe. Thus leftists can come to the defense of Muslims who want gays executed and who want a new Islamic state of rape and pillage. Presumably, they have been scared into defending 'bad' Muslims by the 'even worse' Muslims. Thus, the best way to get leftists to support climate denialists, gay bashers, welfare opponents etc is to blow something up. Then the leftists will be forced to willfully ignore all the objectionable views held by any conservative in the interests of maintaining the facade of unity against an ever shrinking 'real enemy'.

The moderates are not homicidal, you'd know about it if they were, there'd be heads hacked off left, right and centre.

Come on pansi why don't you just admit it, you want to be an ISIS bride along with Kat. 

Are there any non homicidal moderates, freediver, in your opinion?

---

It is an interesting conversation. It highlights just how clueless Misty/culture warrior is.

(someone has an identity issue)

You want to see homicidal moderates, go visit political animal and have a look at all the righties who threaten to 'kick your head in' because you're not a 'rightie'.

The problem with some on here is that they see defending 'ones right to peacefully follow whatever religion they like' and 'refusing to tarnish all muslims with one brush' as somehow being the same as supporting ISIS. Sorry, but if they're that stupid that they can't tell the difference, let them think what they like.

innocentbystander. wrote on Jul 4^th, 2015 at 9:36am:

Come on pansi why don't you just admit it, you want to be an ISIS bride along with Kat.

pansi already has her veil...she wants to be a mail order bride..not sure about kat I think he will take anyone as long as they pay the fare...

cods wrote on Jul 4^th, 2015 at 9:48am:

innocentbystander. wrote on Jul 4th, 2015 at 9:36am: Come on pansi why don't you just admit it, you want to be an ISIS bride along with Kat.  pansi already has her veil...she wants to be a mail order bride..not sure about kat I think he will take anyone as long as they pay the fare...

It's not funny cods, my veil is yellowing with age and I'm still waiting for my ticket. Sometimes I wonder if my turn will ever come, especially after that nasty ISIS man said ' aya too ole dam you me yah!'.....I might end up being the

bride of Frankenstein

http://th02.deviantart.net/fs70/150/i/2014/161/8/4/colorized_bride_of_frankenstein_52__1935_jpg_by_dr_realart_md-d7lw93u.jpg



don't get me wrong, I like him but it's not love at first sight.

Quote:

The moderates are not homicidal, you'd know about it if they were, there'd be heads hacked off left, right and centre.

Interesting dichotomy their pansi.

Homicidal does not have to mean stupid and self destructive. Islam supposedly forbids Muslims from starting a fight they cannot win.

Are you suggesting that you would support anyone, no matter how objectionable their political views, so long as they stop short of personally killing people this instant?

Ex Dame Pansi wrote on Jun 30^th, 2015 at 7:01pm:

The fundamentalists of any religion will do you in if you look sideways at them. The only reason they need is that you're not one of them.

Sounds more like trade unionism.... :D

____ wrote on Jul 4^th, 2015 at 9:39am:

Are there any non homicidal moderates, freediver, in your opinion?

Yeah, the non-practicing ones (ie apostates).

The Blacktown MP describes himself as a "non-practicing" Muslim.

Soren wrote on Jul 4^th, 2015 at 4:15pm:

____ wrote on Jul 4th, 2015 at 9:39am: Are there any non homicidal moderates, freediver, in your opinion? Yeah, the non-practicing ones (ie apostates). The Blacktown MP describes himself as a "non-practicing" Muslim.

I HAVE A VERY, VERY SERIOUS QUESTION,    for all persons like Ed Husic;

In what practical 'sense', is a "non-practicing" moslem, a moslem,        if he has publicly renounced the primary doctrinal obligation, of what being a moslem, entails ???




Because Allah's messenger declares that a 'moslem' who's intention it is, to avoid participating in hot Jihad, is a hypocrite, aka an infidel!

And Allah himself declares that a 'moslem' who hinders others from the path of the Cause of Allah [i.e. from participating in hot Jihad], is a hypocrite, aka an infidel!




Quote:

'Whosoever dies without participating in an expedition (jihad) nor having the intention to do so, dies on a branch of hypocrisy,'

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2632768/Brisbane-woman-charged-supporting-terrorism-whilst-Australian-husband-fights-Syria-member-brutal-militant-group.html
   - Australian moslem, Mohamed Elomar, quoting ISLAMIC scripture



Google;
"Allah's Messenger said" "Whosoever dies without participating"



FROM THE SUNNA OF MOHAMMED

"Allah's Apostle was asked, "What is the best deed?" He replied, "To believe in Allah and His Apostle (Muhammad). The questioner then asked, "What is the next (in goodness)? He replied, "To participate in Jihad (religious fighting) in Allah's Cause." "
hadith/bukhari #001.002.025


"A man came to the Prophet and asked, "A man fights for war booty; another fights for fame and a third fights for showing off; which of them fights in Allah's Cause?" The Prophet said, "He who fights that Allah's Word (i.e. Islam) should be superior, fights in Allah's Cause." "
hadith/bukhari #004.052.065
hadith/bukhari #004.052.080i




"Believers, obey Allah, and obey the Messenger! Those who disbelieve and hinder men from the Cause of Allah, He will not pardon. Do not falter; become faint-hearted, or weak-kneed, crying for peace. You have the upper hand.
Koran 47.33-35




BUT THERE IS MORE!!!!      -------- >

FOR MOSLEMS, THERE IS A    'GET OUT OF GAOL FREE'    CARD !!!!!

All the moslem has to do, is to claim that he was merely deceiving infidels, in pretending to reject the Cause of Allah,    and he is off the hook !!!

      -------- >

Yadda said....
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1430227148/14#14

Quote:

ISLAM is a philosophy which promotes and encourages moslems [who live within a stronger non-moslem jurisdiction] to engage in a relationship of veiled hostility towards that non-moslem jurisdiction. And then, when many moslem individuals 'fail to thrive' within any non-moslem jurisdiction, the moslem community en-masse claim victimhood status, and insistently claim that moslems are the victims of hostility and prejudice from non-moslems. [quote]July 28, 2006 Islamic Dictionary for Infidels ...Robert Spencer, ..."Religious deception of unbelievers is indeed taught by the Qur'an itself: "Let not the believers take for friends or helpers unbelievers rather than believers. If any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah; except by way of precaution, that ye may guard yourselves from them" (Qur'an 3:28). In other words, don't make friends with unbelievers except to "guard yourselves from them": pretend to be their friends so that you can strengthen yourself against them. The distinguished Qur'anic commentator Ibn Kathir explains that this verse teaches that if "believers who in some areas or times fear for their safety from the disbelievers," they may "show friendship to the disbelievers outwardly, but never inwardly."

Google



Google,
we smile to the face "while our hearts curse them"




Quote:

A Study in Muslim Doctrine "...while sincere friendship with non-Muslims is forbidden, insincere friendship - whenever beneficial to Muslims - is not."

http://www.meforum.org/2512/nidal-hasan-fort-hood-muslim-doctrine

[/quote]





.




IMAGE...
http://www.raymondibrahim.com/_admin/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/129.jpeg

Sheikh Yassir al-Burhami



Quote:

How Circumstance Dictates Islamic Behavior January 18, 2012 Preach Peace When Weak, Wage War When Strong "...all notions of peace with non-Muslims are based on circumstance. When Muslims are weak, they should be peaceful; when strong, they should go on the offensive."

Sheikh Yassir al-Burhami - an ISLAMIC scholar and Egyptian Salafi leader
http://www.raymondibrahim.com/from-the-arab-world/how-circumstance-dictates-islamic-behavior/

The same way people claim to be Christian yet never go to church.

freediver wrote on Jul 4^th, 2015 at 10:06am:

Quote: The moderates are not homicidal, you'd know about it if they were, there'd be heads hacked off left, right and centre. Interesting dichotomy their pansi. Homicidal does not have to mean stupid and self destructive. Islam supposedly forbids Muslims from starting a fight they cannot win. Are you suggesting that you would support anyone, no matter how objectionable their political views, so long as they stop short of personally killing people this instant?

I'm a peaceful person, I don't support violence of any sort whether it be with Rastifarians, Christians, Athiests or Muslims.

The last thing I'd want to do is get mixed up in some crazy religious argument, in my opinion, they're all nuts, but I still believe you can follow Islam without committing murder and mayhem.

longweekend58 wrote on Jul 4^th, 2015 at 5:33pm:

The same way people claim to be Christian yet never go to church.

That's silly talk.

You don't have to go anywhere near a church to follow the teachings of Christ.

You claim to go to church but you don't follow the teachings of Christ.

Ex Dame Pansi wrote on Jul 4^th, 2015 at 5:59pm:

freediver wrote on Jul 4th, 2015 at 10:06am: Quote: The moderates are not homicidal, you'd know about it if they were, there'd be heads hacked off left, right and centre. Interesting dichotomy their pansi. Homicidal does not have to mean stupid and self destructive. Islam supposedly forbids Muslims from starting a fight they cannot win. Are you suggesting that you would support anyone, no matter how objectionable their political views, so long as they stop short of personally killing people this instant? I'm a peaceful person, I don't support violence of any sort whether it be with Rastifarians, Christians, Athiests or Muslims. The last thing I'd want to do is get mixed up in some crazy religious argument, in my opinion, they're all nuts, but I still believe you can follow Islam without committing murder and mayhem.

Of course you bloody well can. To suggest otherwise is ridiculous ... like this thread.

longweekend58 wrote on Jul 4^th, 2015 at 5:33pm:

The same way people claim to be Christian yet never go to church.

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1435998745/0#0

Ex Dame Pansi wrote on Jul 4^th, 2015 at 5:59pm:

freediver wrote on Jul 4th, 2015 at 10:06am: Quote: The moderates are not homicidal, you'd know about it if they were, there'd be heads hacked off left, right and centre. Interesting dichotomy their pansi. Homicidal does not have to mean stupid and self destructive. Islam supposedly forbids Muslims from starting a fight they cannot win. Are you suggesting that you would support anyone, no matter how objectionable their political views, so long as they stop short of personally killing people this instant? I'm a peaceful person, I don't support violence of any sort whether it be with Rastifarians, Christians, Athiests or Muslims. The last thing I'd want to do is get mixed up in some crazy religious argument, in my opinion, they're all nuts, but I still believe you can follow Islam without committing murder and mayhem.

Yes I'd hate for you to have to take a stance on quarrelsome religious issues like whether to execute gays. Much better to cover your eyes and convince yourself they are moderates, because they have not yet chopped your head off.

Tell me Pansi, were you this keen to defend frothing-at-the-mouth lunatics prior to the current season of Islamic terrorism, or did you only realise they were your friends afterwards?

Ex Dame Pansi wrote on Jul 4^th, 2015 at 6:01pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Jul 4th, 2015 at 5:33pm: The same way people claim to be Christian yet never go to church. That's silly talk. You don't have to go anywhere near a church to follow the teachings of Christ. You claim to go to church but you don't follow the teachings of Christ.

the Bible (and the teachings of Christ) would say different.  You dont really know the teachings of Jesus other than a smattering of the well-known and easy-to-handle ones.

What are you talking about Longy?

freediver wrote on Jul 4^th, 2015 at 7:06pm:

Ex Dame Pansi wrote on Jul 4th, 2015 at 5:59pm: freediver wrote on Jul 4th, 2015 at 10:06am: Quote: The moderates are not homicidal, you'd know about it if they were, there'd be heads hacked off left, right and centre. Interesting dichotomy their pansi. Homicidal does not have to mean stupid and self destructive. Islam supposedly forbids Muslims from starting a fight they cannot win. Are you suggesting that you would support anyone, no matter how objectionable their political views, so long as they stop short of personally killing people this instant? I'm a peaceful person, I don't support violence of any sort whether it be with Rastifarians, Christians, Athiests or Muslims. The last thing I'd want to do is get mixed up in some crazy religious argument, in my opinion, they're all nuts, but I still believe you can follow Islam without committing murder and mayhem. Yes I'd hate for you to have to take a stance on quarrelsome religious issues like whether to execute gays. Much better to cover your eyes and convince yourself they are moderates, because they have not yet chopped your head off. Tell me Pansi, were you this keen to defend frothing-at-the-mouth lunatics prior to the current season of Islamic terrorism, or did you only realise they were your friends afterwards?

Don't you think, considering how many Muslims there are in the world, that if all of these people were war mongering, intolerant or blood thirsty, we would be seeing a hell of a lot more blood letting?

The vast majority of Muslims in this country (and i would go so far as to say the entire world) are not "frothing at the mouth", nor do the want to execute gays and lesbians (thought i'd throw the lesbian thing in because everybody seems to forget lesbians when arguing for rights).

You've been hoodwinked by a noisy and dedicated minority. Isn't it tiresome to keep on believing 'they' are all out to get you?

Quote:

Don't you think, considering how many Muslims there are in the world, that if all of these people were war mongering, intolerant or blood thirsty, we would be seeing a hell of a lot more blood letting?

Most of them realise they would lose if they did. Abu for example was supportive of war mongering in the name of establishing an Islamic state. But he was clever enough to realise he couldn't just start shooting random people. He did however believe that if there was an Islamic State under attack, he would be duty-bound to go and fight for it. I haven't heard from him in a while.


Quote:

The vast majority of Muslims in this country (and i would go so far as to say the entire world) are not "frothing at the mouth", nor do the want to execute gays and lesbians (thought i'd throw the lesbian thing in because everybody seems to forget lesbians when arguing for rights).

Don't worry, I haven't forgotten about lesbians. How do you know what the majority of Muslims think? The surveys I am aware of show some very backwards views among the worlds Muslims that are attributable to the influence of Islam.


Quote:

You've been hoodwinked by a noisy and dedicated minority.

Being shot by a minority does not hurt and less than being shot by a majority. It does not take a majority to destroy democracy and human rights.


Quote:

Isn't it tiresome to keep on believing 'they' are all out to get you?

If you have that much trouble figuring out what I believe, despite me telling you directly, I doubt your ability to gauge what the majority of Muslims believe.

Quote:

Don't you think, considering how many Muslims there are in the world, that if all of these people were war mongering, intolerant or blood thirsty, we would be seeing a hell of a lot more blood letting?

Most of them realise they would lose if they did. Abu for example was supportive of war mongering in the name of establishing an Islamic state. But he was clever enough to realise he couldn't just start shooting random people. He did however believe that if there was an Islamic State under attack, he would be duty-bound to go and fight for it. I haven't heard from him in a while.


Quote:

The vast majority of Muslims in this country (and i would go so far as to say the entire world) are not "frothing at the mouth", nor do the want to execute gays and lesbians (thought i'd throw the lesbian thing in because everybody seems to forget lesbians when arguing for rights).

Don't worry, I haven't forgotten about lesbians. How do you know what the majority of Muslims think? The surveys I am aware of show some very backwards views among the worlds Muslims that are attributable to the influence of Islam.


Quote:

You've been hoodwinked by a noisy and dedicated minority.

Being shot by a minority does not hurt and less than being shot by a majority. It does not take a majority to destroy democracy and human rights.


Quote:

Isn't it tiresome to keep on believing 'they' are all out to get you?

If you have that much trouble figuring out what I believe, despite me telling you directly, I doubt your ability to gauge what the majority of Muslims believe.

mothra wrote on Jul 5^th, 2015 at 12:24am:

Don't you think, considering how many Muslims there are in the world, that if all of these people were war mongering, intolerant or blood thirsty, we would be seeing a hell of a lot more blood letting? The vast majority of Muslims in this country (and i would go so far as to say the entire world) are not "frothing at the mouth", nor do the want to execute gays and lesbians (thought i'd throw the lesbian thing in because everybody seems to forget lesbians when arguing for rights). You've been hoodwinked by a noisy and dedicated minority. Isn't it tiresome to keep on believing 'they' are all out to get you?

IMAGE...
http://www.applied-corporate-governance.com/images/ThreeMonkeys.jpg




Yeah,           why would anyone think that 'Aussie' moslems are anything but our genial co-citizens, here in Australia ???          !!!!!              :o


REASON #1;


Quote:

"[a respected moslem community spokesman has] called on Australian Muslims to spurn secular democracy and Western notions of moderate Islam... ...[moslems in Australia were told] that democracy is "haram" (forbidden) for Muslims, whose political engagement should be be based purely on Islamic law. "We must adhere to Islam and Islam alone," Mr Hanif [said]"

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2010/07/australia-members-of-hizb-ut-tahrir-say-country-is-god-forsaken-and-that-muslims-must-shun-secular-a.html





.





REASON #2;

'ISIS', is already here within Australia;


Quote:

"......Yes my brothers, we will change the world to suit ISLAM. The moslems living in Australia are also engaging in this struggle....."

WATCH THE YT VIDEO, to get an understanding of how 'Aussie' moslems are conducting themselves behind closed doors!!


Muslims brainwash children in Australia            -------- >         goto 1m 40s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=krk5piUzp1E


n.b.
Behind closed doors,       many imam's who are living in the West, are constantly advising members of their community, that moslems must reject Western values, rules, and laws.     !!!

For example;     Watch this advice being given,      watch Channel 4 [UK] Undercover Mosque on YT

Google;
dispatches undercover mosque, channel 4, -Return




.





REASON #3;

IMAGE...
http://www.raymondibrahim.com/_admin/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/129.jpeg

Sheikh Yassir al-Burhami



Quote:

How Circumstance Dictates Islamic Behavior January 18, 2012 Preach Peace When Weak, Wage War When Strong "...all notions of peace with non-Muslims are based on circumstance. When Muslims are weak, they should be peaceful; when strong, they should go on the offensive."

Sheikh Yassir al-Burhami - an ISLAMIC scholar and Egyptian Salafi leader
http://www.raymondibrahim.com/from-the-arab-world/how-circumstance-dictates-islamic-behavior/

freediver wrote on Jul 4^th, 2015 at 7:06pm:

Ex Dame Pansi wrote on Jul 4th, 2015 at 5:59pm: freediver wrote on Jul 4th, 2015 at 10:06am: Quote: The moderates are not homicidal, you'd know about it if they were, there'd be heads hacked off left, right and centre. Interesting dichotomy their pansi. Homicidal does not have to mean stupid and self destructive. Islam supposedly forbids Muslims from starting a fight they cannot win. Are you suggesting that you would support anyone, no matter how objectionable their political views, so long as they stop short of personally killing people this instant? I'm a peaceful person, I don't support violence of any sort whether it be with Rastifarians, Christians, Athiests or Muslims. The last thing I'd want to do is get mixed up in some crazy religious argument, in my opinion, they're all nuts, but I still believe you can follow Islam without committing murder and mayhem. Yes I'd hate for you to have to take a stance on quarrelsome religious issues like whether to execute gays. Much better to cover your eyes and convince yourself they are moderates, because they have not yet chopped your head off. Tell me Pansi, were you this keen to defend frothing-at-the-mouth lunatics prior to the current season of Islamic terrorism, or did you only realise they were your friends afterwards?

I'm not defending any  frothing at the mouth lunatics as far as I know. I've got Muslim friends and they have assured me that my head is quite safe and strangely enough, I believe them.

I fear germs and Tony Abbott more than Muslims.

Quote:

I'm not defending any  frothing at the mouth lunatics as far as I know.

Of course. That is the point. You deliberately remain ignorant so you can maintain a facade of unity. To you, unity is more important than challenging those who say, promote the execution of gays.


Quote:

I've got Muslim friends and they have assured me that my head is quite safe and strangely enough, I believe them.

You are setting the bar pretty low here pansi. Suppose they consider your head to be safe because you are not a homosexual and do not criticise Muhammed. Or because Australian law prevents them from following their religion to the full extent. If it was a non-Muslim with such objectionable views, you would rightly condemn them. But because it is a Muslim, the 'even worse' ones somehow force you to take the side of the 'bad' ones.

freediver wrote on Jul 5^th, 2015 at 11:33am:

Quote: I'm not defending any  frothing at the mouth lunatics as far as I know. Of course. That is the point. You deliberately remain ignorant so you can maintain a facade of unity. To you, unity is more important than challenging those who say, promote the execution of gays. [quote]I've got Muslim friends and they have assured me that my head is quite safe and strangely enough, I believe them.

You are setting the bar pretty low here pansi. Suppose they consider your head to be safe because you are not a homosexual and do not criticise Muhammed. Or because Australian law prevents them from following their religion to the full extent. If it was a non-Muslim with such objectionable views, you would rightly condemn them. But because it is a Muslim, the 'even worse' ones somehow force you to take the side of the 'bad' ones.[/quote]



I hereby publicly announce that I am not threatened by Muslims, gays, terrorists or boat people.

Are you having trouble understanding the topic Pansi?

Is there anything you are threatened by? Rich white males perhaps?

freediver wrote on Jul 4^th, 2015 at 10:06am:

Quote: The moderates are not homicidal, you'd know about it if they were, there'd be heads hacked off left, right and centre. Interesting dichotomy their pansi. Homicidal does not have to mean stupid and self destructive. Islam supposedly forbids Muslims from starting a fight they cannot win. Are you suggesting that you would support anyone, no matter how objectionable their political views, so long as they stop short of personally killing people this instant?

Obviously they haven't been taking any notice of Islam on that count for a few centuries have they?  ;D ;D ;D

I never saw the textual justification for that one. I think that Muhammed's military success left Islamic ideology devoid of any way of handling military defeat. They know how to win, but not to lose. Thus the history of Islam is an empire that kept expanding until it was too big to manage given the technology of the time, then collapsed and kept collapsing until they were the arse end of the world. All they know how to do is keep fighting, and talking up their great military victories.

mothra wrote on Jul 5^th, 2015 at 12:24am:

freediver wrote on Jul 4th, 2015 at 7:06pm: Ex Dame Pansi wrote on Jul 4th, 2015 at 5:59pm: freediver wrote on Jul 4th, 2015 at 10:06am: Quote: The moderates are not homicidal, you'd know about it if they were, there'd be heads hacked off left, right and centre. Interesting dichotomy their pansi. Homicidal does not have to mean stupid and self destructive. Islam supposedly forbids Muslims from starting a fight they cannot win. Are you suggesting that you would support anyone, no matter how objectionable their political views, so long as they stop short of personally killing people this instant? I'm a peaceful person, I don't support violence of any sort whether it be with Rastifarians, Christians, Athiests or Muslims. The last thing I'd want to do is get mixed up in some crazy religious argument, in my opinion, they're all nuts, but I still believe you can follow Islam without committing murder and mayhem. Yes I'd hate for you to have to take a stance on quarrelsome religious issues like whether to execute gays. Much better to cover your eyes and convince yourself they are moderates, because they have not yet chopped your head off. Tell me Pansi, were you this keen to defend frothing-at-the-mouth lunatics prior to the current season of Islamic terrorism, or did you only realise they were your friends afterwards? Don't you think, considering how many Muslims there are in the world, that if all of these people were war mongering, intolerant or blood thirsty, we would be seeing a hell of a lot more blood letting? The vast majority of Muslims in this country (and i would go so far as to say the entire world) are not "frothing at the mouth", nor do the want to execute gays and lesbians (thought i'd throw the lesbian thing in because everybody seems to forget lesbians when arguing for rights). You've been hoodwinked by a noisy and dedicated minority. Isn't it tiresome to keep on believing 'they' are all out to get you?

Over 400 million radical & fundamentalist Muslims globally aren't a minority.....

that's more than the entire population of the USA.

So that's just a poor assumption on your part.

Gnads wrote on Jul 5^th, 2015 at 6:15pm:

mothra wrote on Jul 5th, 2015 at 12:24am: freediver wrote on Jul 4th, 2015 at 7:06pm: Ex Dame Pansi wrote on Jul 4th, 2015 at 5:59pm: freediver wrote on Jul 4th, 2015 at 10:06am: Quote: The moderates are not homicidal, you'd know about it if they were, there'd be heads hacked off left, right and centre. Interesting dichotomy their pansi. Homicidal does not have to mean stupid and self destructive. Islam supposedly forbids Muslims from starting a fight they cannot win. Are you suggesting that you would support anyone, no matter how objectionable their political views, so long as they stop short of personally killing people this instant? I'm a peaceful person, I don't support violence of any sort whether it be with Rastifarians, Christians, Athiests or Muslims. The last thing I'd want to do is get mixed up in some crazy religious argument, in my opinion, they're all nuts, but I still believe you can follow Islam without committing murder and mayhem. Yes I'd hate for you to have to take a stance on quarrelsome religious issues like whether to execute gays. Much better to cover your eyes and convince yourself they are moderates, because they have not yet chopped your head off. Tell me Pansi, were you this keen to defend frothing-at-the-mouth lunatics prior to the current season of Islamic terrorism, or did you only realise they were your friends afterwards? Don't you think, considering how many Muslims there are in the world, that if all of these people were war mongering, intolerant or blood thirsty, we would be seeing a hell of a lot more blood letting? The vast majority of Muslims in this country (and i would go so far as to say the entire world) are not "frothing at the mouth", nor do the want to execute gays and lesbians (thought i'd throw the lesbian thing in because everybody seems to forget lesbians when arguing for rights). You've been hoodwinked by a noisy and dedicated minority. Isn't it tiresome to keep on believing 'they' are all out to get you? Over 400 million radical & fundamentalist Muslims globally aren't a minority..... that's more than the entire population of the USA. So that's just a poor assumption on your part.

Remember, when Pansi talks about moderates, she is including people who promote the execution of gays etc. Basically, anyone who is not currently engaged in the act of removing her head is by definition a moderate.

freediver wrote on Jul 5^th, 2015 at 6:18pm:

Gnads wrote on Jul 5th, 2015 at 6:15pm: mothra wrote on Jul 5th, 2015 at 12:24am: freediver wrote on Jul 4th, 2015 at 7:06pm: Ex Dame Pansi wrote on Jul 4th, 2015 at 5:59pm: freediver wrote on Jul 4th, 2015 at 10:06am: Quote: The moderates are not homicidal, you'd know about it if they were, there'd be heads hacked off left, right and centre. Interesting dichotomy their pansi. Homicidal does not have to mean stupid and self destructive. Islam supposedly forbids Muslims from starting a fight they cannot win. Are you suggesting that you would support anyone, no matter how objectionable their political views, so long as they stop short of personally killing people this instant? I'm a peaceful person, I don't support violence of any sort whether it be with Rastifarians, Christians, Athiests or Muslims. The last thing I'd want to do is get mixed up in some crazy religious argument, in my opinion, they're all nuts, but I still believe you can follow Islam without committing murder and mayhem. Yes I'd hate for you to have to take a stance on quarrelsome religious issues like whether to execute gays. Much better to cover your eyes and convince yourself they are moderates, because they have not yet chopped your head off. Tell me Pansi, were you this keen to defend frothing-at-the-mouth lunatics prior to the current season of Islamic terrorism, or did you only realise they were your friends afterwards? Don't you think, considering how many Muslims there are in the world, that if all of these people were war mongering, intolerant or blood thirsty, we would be seeing a hell of a lot more blood letting? The vast majority of Muslims in this country (and i would go so far as to say the entire world) are not "frothing at the mouth", nor do the want to execute gays and lesbians (thought i'd throw the lesbian thing in because everybody seems to forget lesbians when arguing for rights). You've been hoodwinked by a noisy and dedicated minority. Isn't it tiresome to keep on believing 'they' are all out to get you? Over 400 million radical & fundamentalist Muslims globally aren't a minority..... that's more than the entire population of the USA. So that's just a poor assumption on your part. Remember, when Pansi talks about moderates, she is including people who promote the execution of gays etc. Basically, anyone who is not currently engaged in the act of removing her head is by definition a moderate.

Lol freediver, Tony's done a job on you. I'm surprised you're game to go to the letterbox.

Get over the fear or it will consume you.

Gnads wrote on Jul 5^th, 2015 at 6:15pm:

mothra wrote on Jul 5th, 2015 at 12:24am: freediver wrote on Jul 4th, 2015 at 7:06pm: Ex Dame Pansi wrote on Jul 4th, 2015 at 5:59pm: freediver wrote on Jul 4th, 2015 at 10:06am: Quote: The moderates are not homicidal, you'd know about it if they were, there'd be heads hacked off left, right and centre. Interesting dichotomy their pansi. Homicidal does not have to mean stupid and self destructive. Islam supposedly forbids Muslims from starting a fight they cannot win. Are you suggesting that you would support anyone, no matter how objectionable their political views, so long as they stop short of personally killing people this instant? I'm a peaceful person, I don't support violence of any sort whether it be with Rastifarians, Christians, Athiests or Muslims. The last thing I'd want to do is get mixed up in some crazy religious argument, in my opinion, they're all nuts, but I still believe you can follow Islam without committing murder and mayhem. Yes I'd hate for you to have to take a stance on quarrelsome religious issues like whether to execute gays. Much better to cover your eyes and convince yourself they are moderates, because they have not yet chopped your head off. Tell me Pansi, were you this keen to defend frothing-at-the-mouth lunatics prior to the current season of Islamic terrorism, or did you only realise they were your friends afterwards? Don't you think, considering how many Muslims there are in the world, that if all of these people were war mongering, intolerant or blood thirsty, we would be seeing a hell of a lot more blood letting? The vast majority of Muslims in this country (and i would go so far as to say the entire world) are not "frothing at the mouth", nor do the want to execute gays and lesbians (thought i'd throw the lesbian thing in because everybody seems to forget lesbians when arguing for rights). You've been hoodwinked by a noisy and dedicated minority. Isn't it tiresome to keep on believing 'they' are all out to get you? Over 400 million radical & fundamentalist Muslims globally aren't a minority..... that's more than the entire population of the USA. So that's just a poor assumption on your part.

Are you sure there's that many radicals?

Maybe that's roughly how many people purport to be Muslim, many of those would eat oink oink and partake of the alcohol.

No pansy ... that's those who support & or follow the radical/fundmentalist views ...

on Sharia Law, polygamy, wearing full burkha, women not driving, stoning women for adultery or being raped, non education rights to women, child marriage, religious & infidel intolerance etc etc

Remember that's out of 1.6 billion Muslims.

Gnads wrote on Jul 6^th, 2015 at 7:39am:

No pansy ... that's those who support & or follow the radical/fundmentalist views ... on Sharia Law, polygamy, wearing full burkha, women not driving, stoning women for adultery or being raped, non education rights to women, child marriage, religious & infidel intolerance etc etc Remember that's out of 1.6 billion Muslims.

I would not be counting most of the Muslim women in Saudi Arabia.....they'd be behind the wheel if they had half a chance. As a matter of fact, I wouldn't count many Muslim women at all, they don't want to be held back, it's just they haven't found their voices yet.

They will.....in time.

They won't if 'leftists' like you continue to support the homicidal 'moderates' that are oppressing them (but refraining from removing your head).

freediver wrote on Jul 6^th, 2015 at 9:05am:

They won't if 'leftists' like you continue to support the homicidal 'moderates' that are oppressing them (but refraining from removing your head).

They will. Women always find their feet, it's just that in some cultures it seems almost impossible. It might take Muslim women another 100 years before they liberate themselves, best let them do it on their own terms, at their own pace, without western intervention.

Once again....I do not support homicidal anything, ok?

Ex Dame Pansi wrote on Jul 6^th, 2015 at 9:31am:

freediver wrote on Jul 6th, 2015 at 9:05am: They won't if 'leftists' like you continue to support the homicidal 'moderates' that are oppressing them (but refraining from removing your head). They will. Women always find their feet, it's just that in some cultures it seems almost impossible. It might take Muslim women another 100 years before they liberate themselves, best let them do it on their own terms, at their own pace, without western intervention. Once again....I do not support homicidal anything, ok?

What about if they are living here?

double plus good wrote on Jul 6^th, 2015 at 9:33am:

Ex Dame Pansi wrote on Jul 6th, 2015 at 9:31am: freediver wrote on Jul 6th, 2015 at 9:05am: They won't if 'leftists' like you continue to support the homicidal 'moderates' that are oppressing them (but refraining from removing your head). They will. Women always find their feet, it's just that in some cultures it seems almost impossible. It might take Muslim women another 100 years before they liberate themselves, best let them do it on their own terms, at their own pace, without western intervention. Once again....I do not support homicidal anything, ok? What about if they are living here?

Bring them over to the CWA we'll straighten them out with good womanly common sense.

re double plus good


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What about if they are living here?

Any criminal acts by anyone will be dealt with through our justice system.  So that people like you can not make ridiculous assertions about people.   :)

Gnads wrote on Jul 6^th, 2015 at 7:39am:

No pansy ... that's those who support & or follow the radical/fundmentalist views ... on Sharia Law, polygamy, wearing full burkha, women not driving, stoning women for adultery or being raped, non education rights to women, child marriage, religious & infidel intolerance etc etc Remember that's out of 1.6 billion Muslims.

Muslims will try to distance themselves from the Saudis yet they face Mecca in Saudi Arabia when they pray.

One of the 5 pillars of Islam is hajj, you have to go to Saudi Arabia for that.

If you want to see what Islam is like just look at the homeland of it Saudi Arabia.

Ex Dame Pansi wrote on Jul 6^th, 2015 at 9:31am:

freediver wrote on Jul 6th, 2015 at 9:05am: They won't if 'leftists' like you continue to support the homicidal 'moderates' that are oppressing them (but refraining from removing your head). They will. Women always find their feet, it's just that in some cultures it seems almost impossible. It might take Muslim women another 100 years before they liberate themselves, best let them do it on their own terms, at their own pace, without western intervention. Once again....I do not support homicidal anything, ok?

Yes you do. You even said you would support people who preached the execution of gays in 'church'.

Pansi, imagine that Australian churches did actually start preaching the execution of gays. You would rightly call an idiot someone who insisted we must support these hate preachers in case one of their congregation turns into an extremist and starts executing gays, so that we can be united in our hand wringing with the people encouraging the slaughter.

Yet this is exactly what you are doing with Muslims.

If those women do achieve liberty, it will be despite the efforts of leftists like you. I have often heard that the worst enemy of womens lib is other women trying to bring them down, but I have never seen it writ so large as in your posts. You would literally throw them to the wolves - to what end is anyone's guess.

re Freediver


Quote:

If those women do achieve liberty, it will be despite the efforts of leftists like you. I have often heard that the worst enemy of womens lib is other women trying to bring them down, but I have never seen it writ so large as in your posts. You would literally throw them to the wolves - to what end is anyone's guess.

And what does the efforts of right wings like you achieve?  We went to war in Afghanistan to 'liberate' the people.  It did not happen.  Except in regions of the capital cities, which are frequently bombed, many regional areas are still under factional control, some are even worse than Taliban.   We went to war in Iraq, to 'liberate' the people.  It did not happen.  Now ISIL run rampant in the region of lawlessness and power vacuum.  We helped and topple Lybia, and now, refugees are flooding across to Europe. 

You know very well, that when you created the post " Leftist Support homocidal moderates"  - it had little to do with rights of Muslim women worldwide, but more to do with trying to relate moderate Muslim here in Australia with the word 'homocidal'. 

Its very interesting when people on the far right screaming about "turn back the boats, send them all back - woman children no exceptions" + "f off, we are full", and then have the galls to turn around the accuse the people on the left of  "throw them to the wolves".  Talking about hypocrisy. 

freediver wrote on Jul 6^th, 2015 at 12:40pm:

Ex Dame Pansi wrote on Jul 6th, 2015 at 9:31am: freediver wrote on Jul 6th, 2015 at 9:05am: They won't if 'leftists' like you continue to support the homicidal 'moderates' that are oppressing them (but refraining from removing your head). They will. Women always find their feet, it's just that in some cultures it seems almost impossible. It might take Muslim women another 100 years before they liberate themselves, best let them do it on their own terms, at their own pace, without western intervention. Once again....I do not support homicidal anything, ok? Yes you do. You even said you would support people who preached the execution of gays in 'church'. Pansi, imagine that Australian churches did actually start preaching the execution of gays. You would rightly call an idiot someone who insisted we must support these hate preachers in case one of their congregation turns into an extremist and starts executing gays, so that we can be united in our hand wringing with the people encouraging the slaughter. Yet this is exactly what you are doing with Muslims. If those women do achieve liberty, it will be despite the efforts of leftists like you. I have often heard that the worst enemy of womens lib is other women trying to bring them down, but I have never seen it writ so large as in your posts. You would literally throw them to the wolves - to what end is anyone's guess.

That's just crazy talk.

I literally couldn't pick a woman up and I literally couldn't throw her.

Do we even have wolves here?

Aya Muhammad...get me wolf now!....ne ne ne!!! no from zoo....you have ze siztra...get....get

....mmm she waz nice girl.....but she want to wear the lip gloss.....ave to kill her.....

http://blogs.babycenter.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/wolves.jpg

tickleandrose wrote on Jul 6^th, 2015 at 12:59pm:

re Freediver Quote: If those women do achieve liberty, it will be despite the efforts of leftists like you. I have often heard that the worst enemy of womens lib is other women trying to bring them down, but I have never seen it writ so large as in your posts. You would literally throw them to the wolves - to what end is anyone's guess. And what does the efforts of right wings like you achieve?  We went to war in Afghanistan to 'liberate' the people.  It did not happen.  Except in regions of the capital cities, which are frequently bombed, many regional areas are still under factional control, some are even worse than Taliban.   We went to war in Iraq, to 'liberate' the people.  It did not happen.  Now ISIL run rampant in the region of lawlessness and power vacuum.  We helped and topple Lybia, and now, refugees are flood across to Europe.

We know the lefties loved the Taliban.

The constitution of the Rojava cantons show the kurds bought the democracy we were selling in Iraq, the greeted the USA troops by singing the star spangled banner and waving home made USA flags when the USA came to town.
Not a single coalition soldier was killed in Kurdish parts of Iraq, the sunni vs shia sectarian battles did not happen in the Kurdish parts of Iraq.
The Islamic state attacks the kurds,kills the men and rapes and enslaves the women and children.

It was Kevin Rudd who backed UN security council resolution 1973 for Libya, is he right wing or left wing?

Being a leftist must involve some form of mental retardation.

double.

Re Baronvonrort


Quote:

We know the lefties loved the Taliban.

Right... just like a homocidal moderates would do.... Except, Taliban was supported by the CIA... part of cold war effort against Soviet Russia.  If anything, by your definition, the leftist should be furious about Taliban.   ;)   

Let me make it easy for you.  Show me an evidence of leftist parade in support of the former Taliban.  Otherwise, another infantile statement. 


Quote:

The constitution of the Rojava cantons show the kurds bought the democracy we were selling in Iraq, the greeted the USA troops by singing the star spangled banner and waving home made USA flags when the USA came to town. Not a single coalition soldier was killed in Kurdish parts of Iraq, the sunni vs shia sectarian battles did not happen in the Kurdish parts of Iraq. The Islamic state attacks the kurds,kills the men and rapes and enslaves the women and children.

Right, and when ISIL is attacking, killing and raping, there is much rights in Kurdish Iraq for women you think?   There are good interventions and there are bad interventions.   And if history is of any guidance, the continued cycle of war, political instability, sanctions, foreign intervention, - are not the answers to better rights for women.   It does not happen in reality, and only occurs in Hollywood movies. 

Even our own history of equality of rights are marred with violence dating back all the way to Peasants revolt in England, and it took literally many generations to reach the stage of where we are now.  Dame Pansi just stated the obvious reality. 


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It was Kevin Rudd who backed UN security council resolution 1973 for Libya, is he right wing or left wing?

Again, another attempt at confusing the issue.  Resolution 1973 is about setting up a no fly zone to protect civilians against Libyan military force.  It had nothing to do with left wing or right wing ideology.   It was an emergency humanitarian crisis at the time.   And I remember, reading Australia providing aids to conflict zones in Libya in this regard - mind you, we all know how our current right wing government feel about foreign aid. 

Anyway, what I do not agree with, is that the same Resolution 1973 (previously 1970) was used by certain countries in the world, to arm the opposition, so much so, that the Libyan regime was toppled, plunging the region into a power vacuum, as now, we have elements of ISIL and Al Q operating there.   Terrible, terrible situation.  Women and children forced to flee to Europe.  There is no rights when you are a wandering refugee. 

Quote:

And what does the efforts of right wings like you achieve?  We went to war in Afghanistan to 'liberate' the people.  It did not happen.

Except of course for establishing democracy where there was none previously. Did you know they even let women vote?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women%27s_rights_in_Afghanistan

Women's rights in Afghanistan have gradually improved in the last decade under the Karzai administration.


Quote:

You know very well, that when you created the post " Leftist Support homocidal moderates"  - it had little to do with rights of Muslim women worldwide, but more to do with trying to relate moderate Muslim here in Australia with the word 'homocidal'.

 

It was about Pansi's insistence that we should support the moderates who are currently refraining from removing her head, even if they, for example, promote the execution of gays in their place of worship. Read the opening post if you are still confused. It is about as spineless as it gets, which is why pansi now resorts to playing the idiot card.


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Except, Taliban was supported by the CIA... part of cold war effort against Soviet Russia.

Would you prefer we had let the Russians have their way? Or perhaps you would prefer we went to war with Russia directly?


Quote:

Let me make it easy for you.  Show me an evidence of leftist parade in support of the former Taliban.  Otherwise, another infantile statement.

 

They are not chopping Pansi's head off. By her standards, they are moderates and natural friends of the leftist.


Quote:

And if history is of any guidance, the continued cycle of war, political instability, sanctions, foreign intervention, - are not the answers to better rights for women.

How about supporting Australian 'moderates' who promote the execution of gays? Good or bad in your opinion? Or do you need to know first whether they are currently removing your head?


Quote:

Even our own history of equality of rights are marred with violence dating back all the way to Peasants revolt in England, and it took literally many generations to reach the stage of where we are now.  Dame Pansi just stated the obvious reality.

We did not reach where we are now through spineless apologists bending over for every lunatic they come across in exchange for not getting their head removed.

re Freediver:


Quote:

Women's rights in Afghanistan have gradually improved in the last decade under the Karzai administration

Really, better rights for women.  Well, may be for you, or may be it came off from a very low base.  The reality is that its no where as rosie.  Perhaps, in the capitals cities, but out in the wilds of Afghanistan, its still pretty bad.  Hell, even health workers gets killed for providing immunization. 

http://edition.cnn.com/2015/03/23/asia/afghanistan-woman-killed/

No Freediver, may be the official position of the government had changed, but the actual change on the ground will take many more years, if not decades to change. 


Quote:

It was about Pansi's insistence that we should support the moderates who are currently refraining from removing her head, even if they, for example, promote the execution of gays in their place of worship. Read the opening post if you are still confused. It is about as spineless as it gets, which is why pansi now resorts to playing the idiot card.

I dont see it that way.   Culture warrior said, the green and labor party want ISIL to take over.  Which is blatantly untrue.   And if even you think ISIL flourished because they hate western value, then you are ignoring the reality on the ground.    And of course, Pansi pointed out rightly that it is not the case, and that the situation is far more complicated than just ISIL.   In fact, if you educate yourself, you will find that ISIL is not just one organization.  The ISIL now, have ISIL at its core, but also many other regional warlords in support of ISIL due to the Geo political instability occurred after second Gulf war, and as well as situation in Syria.   If you read more, you will know that even Muslims themselves from those area - namely refugees and civilians are disillusioned about their violent ways. 

Now stating the obvious is not about spineless.   And people like you seemed to think that just because you are a right wing persuasion, every other different opinion is left wing and wrong. 

Pansi did not come to defend or wish for a state who want to execute gays.  Its not even an issue in the middle East.  Right now, its about getting the region stabilized with a more moderate government, give the people at least some kind of peace and security.  And then worry about better woman's and gay rights later on, when the population are bit more wealthy, and better educated.   This is a more realistic approach.  The right wing approach of destroy everything, and rebuild, only lead to one failed state after another, and one fake democracy after another.    And having this view, is not the same as condoning killing. 


Quote:

Would you prefer we had let the Russians have their way? Or perhaps you would prefer we went to war with Russia directly?

See, again, you taking this out of context.    The statement was made in response to Baron's ridiculous assertion that leftist loved the Taliban.   I was just attacking the consistency of his statement.  So are you saying that the Rightist love the Taliban now?  May be you should take it up with Baron.


Quote:

They are not chopping Pansi's head off. By her standards, they are moderates and natural friends of the leftist.

Well, perhaps may be you should re-evaluate and be less childish.  The world is not just fill of bad people and good people. It is fill with groups and people from different shades of grey.   To hope of for more moderate governance in that region of chaos, does not mean they are natural friends.  They could be a temporary ally, and its may change in the future, who knows.   Throughout history, we see allies become friends, friends become enemies, and then back friends again. 


Quote:

How about supporting Australian 'moderates' who promote the execution of gays? Good or bad in your opinion? Or do you need to know first whether they are currently removing your head?

Which Australian moderates are promoting the execution of gays?  Where? when?  And please, dont quote the passage of such and such, because you can find similar passages in the bible as well.   


Quote:

We did not reach where we are now through spineless apologists bending over for every lunatic they come across in exchange for not getting their head removed.

Well, we definitely cant reach where we are now if not for the progressives of the society.  The women would still be oppressed, the poor will still not have the voting rights, children will still be working in sweat shops, and we will not have universal health care that looks after everyone. 

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Really, better rights for women.  Well, may be for you, or may be it came off from a very low base.

Yes. It came from a low base - a base you appear to prefer they were kept at.


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The reality is that its no where as rosie.  Perhaps, in the capitals cities, but out in the wilds of Afghanistan, its still pretty bad.

So they "failed" by not working a miracle?


Quote:

I dont see it that way.   Culture warrior said, the green and labor party want ISIL to take over.

If I want to know what he said, I can read it for myself.


Quote:

And if even you think ISIL flourished because they hate western value, then you are ignoring the reality on the ground.

Why are Iraqis choosing ISIL instead of working with the new democracy that was handed to them on a platter?


Quote:

In fact, if you educate yourself, you will find that ISIL is not just one organization.  The ISIL now, have ISIL at its core, but also many other regional warlords in support of ISIL due to the Geo political instability occurred after second Gulf war, and as well as situation in Syria.   If you read more, you will know that even Muslims themselves from those area - namely refugees and civilians are disillusioned about their violent ways.

 

Not to mention 100 or so Australian Muslims eager to join in the traditional Islamic rape and pillage. They were no doubt supported by Pansi up until they made that decision. Maybe they still are.


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Now stating the obvious is not about spineless.

 

I did not say it was. Should I remind you what I said was spineless? You seem to share Pansi's attention span problems.


Quote:

Pansi did not come to defend or wish for a state who want to execute gays.  Its not even an issue in the middle East.

She was defending and supporting Australians who want to execute gays and who promote the execution of gays. No arm waving geopolitical obfuscation there. Just pure spinelessness.


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Well, perhaps may be you should re-evaluate and be less childish.

It is Pansi's childish, idiotic, spineless position that I am criticising here. I am not making this up. She actually said it. Read the opening post.


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Which Australian moderates are promoting the execution of gays?  Where? when?  And please, dont quote the passage of such and such, because you can find similar passages in the bible as well.

   

I quoted Pansi. She remains deliberately ignorant of who has what position, but still supports those who promote the execution of gays. Or rather, she would if she was not trying desperately to shield herself from the backwards views of the people she supports. Again, it is all in the opening post. All you have to do is read it.


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Well, we definitely cant reach where we are now if not for the progressives of the society.  The women would still be oppressed, the poor will still not have the voting rights, children will still be working in sweat shops, and we will not have universal health care that looks after everyone.

This is not an attack on "leftists". It is an attack of Pansi's portrayal of leftists as people who would be over and take it from every thug who would destroy those values.

re Freediver


Quote:

Yes. It came from a low base - a base you appear to prefer they were kept at.

Quote:

So they "failed" by not working a miracle?

From my perspective, because it came from a very low base, I just do not see the fundamentals of women's rights improve in those areas.  At least not for a decade or more.    I do not believe in miracles.   This however, does not mean that I prefer they were kept at (that way). 


Quote:

Why are Iraqis choosing ISIL instead of working with the new democracy that was handed to them on a platter?

  Before the second gulf war, Iraq was ruled by an iron fist.  Post war, there was a power vaccuum and chaos.   The Iraqi army was literally destroyed by the US coalition.   And even now, the Iraq army alone was inadequate against ISIL and its regional allies.   Even foreign contractors working in Iraq, do so in Greenzones mainly.   The flow of money from oil and reconstruction goes to major centres only.  So the bulk of the population in smaller regional centres were largely left to fend for themselves.   

ISIL are very well funded, and armed.  And their allies in Syria also had assistances from USA.   So what can an average citizen in those area do?  If you even seem as antagonizing, you get shot / beheaded. 

And secondly what is democracy?  It is easy for you Freediver, to say something about Democracy handed on a platter.  But in order for democracy to really work, it requires political stability, it requires a strong middle class swing voting basis, it requires a stable economy.  All of which are missing in the middle east at the moment. 


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Not to mention 100 or so Australian Muslims eager to join in the traditional Islamic rape and pillage. They were no doubt supported by Pansi up until they made that decision. Maybe they still are.

No, this is absolutely false.  Pansi supports tens of thousands of other Australian Muslims, who are law abiding citizens, and contributing members of society.   Who are equally appalled at the violence perpertrated by ISIL.  Who are just everyday people with normal jobs like: doctors, nurses, police officers, students, etc etc.   We disagree with people trying to marginalize these good people in our society, and there by creating more suffering, and more un-necessary violence.   We disagree with impingement on our civil liberties through fear.   Because if we start to do all these as a society, then Freediver.... the ISIL had already won. 


Quote:

She was defending and supporting Australians who want to execute gays and who promote the execution of gays. No arm waving geopolitical obfuscation there. Just pure spinelessness.

Quote:

I quoted Pansi. She remains deliberately ignorant of who has what position, but still supports those who promote the execution of gays. Or rather, she would if she was not trying desperately to shield herself from the backwards views of the people she supports. Again, it is all in the opening post. All you have to do is read it.

No, Pansi said that (in response to "I know the Greens and some in the Labor party would love IS to take over, given they both hate Western civilisation" by freediver - so keep it in context), that what we believe ISIL fighters, cannot be viewed as under one banner.  As I mentioned before, this is true because ISIL of today are made up also of many regional warlords / powers.    And that some fighters may do a runner when confronted (which is also true).  And perhaps more people began to recognize the violence, then they will be marginalized just as Al Q did in Iraq.   

Now, to analyse the situation in reality, does not mean leftist support homicidal moderates.    It is you who are confusing the issue, and trying to frame your narrow logic on others. 

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From my perspective, because it came from a very low base, I just do not see the fundamentals of women's rights improve in those areas.  At least not for a decade or more.    I do not believe in miracles.   This however, does not mean that I prefer they were kept at (that way).

Are you not seeing something because you are not looking?


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And secondly what is democracy?  It is easy for you Freediver, to say something about Democracy handed on a platter.

True. Many tried very hard to give it back.


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But in order for democracy to really work, it requires political stability, it requires a strong middle class swing voting basis, it requires a stable economy.  All of which are missing in the middle east at the moment.

 

Democracy is the very essence of political instability. No other system of government could handle completely replacing the government every few years. It is the ability of democracy to create and handle instability that is it's great virtue.


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No, this is absolutely false.  Pansi supports tens of thousands of other Australian Muslims, who are law abiding citizens, and contributing members of society.

Again, read the opening post. Stop telling me what you think pansi believes. I quoted what she actually said. It is all there, if you could bring yourself back down to earth.


Quote:

No, Pansi said that (in response to "I know the Greens and some in the Labor party would love IS to take over, given they both hate Western civilisation" by freediver - so keep it in context)

How does the context alter the fact that she wants to support people who openly promote the execution of gays? Oh, that's right, they are "moderates" in the context of talking about Islam.


Quote:

And that some fighters may do a runner when confronted (which is also true).  And perhaps more people began to recognize the violence, then they will be marginalized just as Al Q did in Iraq.

 

So all we have to do is support people who call for the execution of gays etc, and ISIS will collapse? Maybe if we have our very own Muslim rape and pillage festival, all those misguided Muslim youths will come home from the middle east and we can live together in unity.....

Culture Warrior

He said:

I know the Greens and some in the Labor party would love IS to take over, given they both hate Western civilisation.

Lefties come from every where to defend radicals,



Pansi1951

She said:

No they don't.

Lefties defend mainstream Muslims that are getting on with life, working, struggling to pay rent or mortgage, bringing up their children, going to their mosque (if the practice their faith) and so they should.

I still believe you can follow Islam without committing murder and mayhem.




If you choose to confuse moderate and mainstream with radicals/fanatics/terrorists that's your problem freediver.

Ex Dame Pansi wrote on Jul 10^th, 2015 at 7:57am:

I still believe you can follow Islam without committing murder and mayhem.

It's easy to believe, because it's completely true.

However, Islamophobes such as Misty, Yadda and Sore End are unable to comprehend this simple fact because their irrational fear and hatred robs them of all common sense.

It's sad to watch their deterioration.

greggerypeccary wrote on Jul 10^th, 2015 at 8:29am:

Ex Dame Pansi wrote on Jul 10th, 2015 at 7:57am: I still believe you can follow Islam without committing murder and mayhem. It's easy to believe, because it's completely true. However, Islamophobes such as Misty, Yadda and Sore End are unable to comprehend this simple fact because their irrational fear and hatred robs them of all common sense. It's sad to watch their deterioration.

Yes, their fear will break them down long before the Muzzie 'terrorists' get them.

Ex Dame Pansi wrote on Jul 10^th, 2015 at 10:01am:

greggerypeccary wrote on Jul 10th, 2015 at 8:29am: Ex Dame Pansi wrote on Jul 10th, 2015 at 7:57am: I still believe you can follow Islam without committing murder and mayhem. It's easy to believe, because it's completely true. However, Islamophobes such as Misty, Yadda and Sore End are unable to comprehend this simple fact because their irrational fear and hatred robs them of all common sense. It's sad to watch their deterioration. Yes, their fear will break them down long before the Muzzie 'terrorists' get them.

Correct.

Still sad to watch, though.

greggerypeccary wrote on Jul 10^th, 2015 at 10:06am:

Ex Dame Pansi wrote on Jul 10th, 2015 at 10:01am: greggerypeccary wrote on Jul 10th, 2015 at 8:29am: Ex Dame Pansi wrote on Jul 10th, 2015 at 7:57am: I still believe you can follow Islam without committing murder and mayhem. It's easy to believe, because it's completely true. However, Islamophobes such as Misty, Yadda and Sore End are unable to comprehend this simple fact because their irrational fear and hatred robs them of all common sense. It's sad to watch their deterioration. Yes, their fear will break them down long before the Muzzie 'terrorists' get them. Correct. Still sad to watch, though.

....but, just a little bit funny too  ;D

Ex Dame Pansi wrote on Jul 10^th, 2015 at 10:21am:

greggerypeccary wrote on Jul 10th, 2015 at 10:06am: Ex Dame Pansi wrote on Jul 10th, 2015 at 10:01am: greggerypeccary wrote on Jul 10th, 2015 at 8:29am: Ex Dame Pansi wrote on Jul 10th, 2015 at 7:57am: I still believe you can follow Islam without committing murder and mayhem. It's easy to believe, because it's completely true. However, Islamophobes such as Misty, Yadda and Sore End are unable to comprehend this simple fact because their irrational fear and hatred robs them of all common sense. It's sad to watch their deterioration. Yes, their fear will break them down long before the Muzzie 'terrorists' get them. Correct. Still sad to watch, though. ....but, just a little bit funny too  ;D

Well ... yeah    :)

re Freediver


Quote:

Are you not seeing something because you are not looking?

Thats not what I was saying.   Seeing, and saying how things are, does not mean condoning it.


Quote:

True. Many tried very hard to give it back.

Sometimes, a small boat can only do so much against a strong current.


Quote:

Democracy is the very essence of political instability. No other system of government could handle completely replacing the government every few years. It is the ability of democracy to create and handle instability that is it's great virtue.

You and I have very different opinion of political instability.  I usually go with the definition as set out on Global peace index, or even the CIA one.   But nevertheless, for simplicity, I will substitute the words political stability, with rule of law. 


Quote:

How does the context alter the fact that she wants to support people who openly promote the execution of gays? Oh, that's right, they are "moderates" in the context of talking about Islam.

Quote:

So all we have to do is support people who call for the execution of gays etc, and ISIS will collapse? Maybe if we have our very own Muslim rape and pillage festival, all those misguided Muslim youths will come home from the middle east and we can live together in unity.....

Well, it never stopped people from the right doing the exact same before   For example, the West had supported the Taliban against the Russians (and you yourself had asked me before, would I rather see Russia win....) , they are not that kind to gays or woman.   The West also supported Saddam Hussein, who is no friend to Gays and Women either.    Then we went to war with Iraq, to support Kuwait, what are their homosexual laws?  And what about Iraq Kurdish, from what I heard, they did not exactly have a good track record on gay and women's right either.   We are also supporting the Free Syrian opposition forces, and some of them were allies to ISIL!

Ultimately Freediver, through my experiences, I believe there is a big difference between how individuals treat other, and how a country deal with another country/group.  In an individual scale, I believe, we should treat everyone equally with respect regardless of religion, or race - this means stop saying silly things like Leftist support homicidal moderates.     On a country / global scale, its much more complicated.  Sometimes, in order to achieve peace and security for its citizens, or to reach a certain political goal, heartless to say that often, its at the expense of individual rights of the small people. 

People on the left and centre, had always wanted to reduce un-neccessary wars, and promote change through peaceful means.   To create change through means of war and conflict, will only promote more suffering to the people, and further marginalize vulnerable minorities.  This is a reality that we had seen repeated again and again for thousands of years. 

WHOA!!!!!

This must present Freediver with a conundrum.

Are these Muslims 'moderates'?

Will they be lopping the heads of gays?

http://d.ibtimes.co.uk/en/full/373673/muslim-woman-takes-part-gay-pride-parade-toronto-last-year.jpg

Quote:

If you choose to confuse moderate and mainstream with radicals/fanatics/terrorists that's your problem freediver.

Apparently it is yours Pansi. Would you support a Muslim as a "moderate" if he promoted the execution of gays in his mosque?

freediver wrote on Jul 11^th, 2015 at 10:12am:

Quote: If you choose to confuse moderate and mainstream with radicals/fanatics/terrorists that's your problem freediver. Apparently it is yours Pansi. Would you support a Muslim as a "moderate" if he promoted the execution of gays in his mosque?

That would depend on how he was promoting it. If for example, he's reading it from the Koran, it wouldn't worry me in the least, it's not like his flock are actually going to do it.

However, if he was telling his flock to go forth and bring back the heads of gays, I'd put him in the fanatical loony bin basket.

So you support moderate Muslims who for example, promote the legal execution of gays, but you stop short of supporting the extremist Muslims who encourage their fellow Muslims to go out and take the law into their own hands?

freediver wrote on Jul 11^th, 2015 at 11:31am:

So you support moderate Muslims who for example, promote the legal execution of gays, but you stop short of supporting the extremist Muslims who encourage their fellow Muslims to go out and take the law into their own hands?

When you say 'support', actually I don't really support any sort of Muslims, be they 10% Musilman or 95% Musilman. I don't even think about Muslims all that much to be honest.

As far as your everyday Imam goes, if he's reading the stuff from his holy book, he is no more dangerous than a Christian Pastor or Minister reading from his holy book. Those people just parrot that stuff because they want a ticket into the afterlife, they don't follow it to the nth degree.

Look at Longy, he's the worst example of a Christian since Jim Jones....oops! not quite, but you know what I mean.

So you have no problem with Muslims using Islam to promote the execution of gays, so long as they do it by the book? You think it is important to be on their side and not alienate them?

freediver wrote on Jul 11^th, 2015 at 12:22pm:

So you have no problem with Muslims using Islam to promote the execution of gays, so long as they do it by the book? You think it is important to be on their side and not alienate them?

I wouldn't know if all the books and chapters of the Koran are promoted in the mosques....I know for  fact the Christian churches shy away from many of the writings in the old testament.

Just because you dwell on the gory bits, doesn't mean they do.

I'm not on anyone's side, I don't care about Islam or any other religion for that matter......I'd ban it all if I could.

FD, whats your opinion of Christians who call for the execution or treatment of Gays, often forcibly?

All executions should be voluntary Brian.


Quote:

I wouldn't know if all the books and chapters of the Koran are promoted in the mosques....I know for  fact the Christian churches shy away from many of the writings in the old testament.

Pansi I am not asking you to tell us what is the real version of Islam. I am asking you where you draw the line in your efforts to redefine moderate so you can support homicidal Muslims.

So you have no problem with Muslims using Islam to promote the execution of gays, so long as they do it by the book? You think it is important to be on their side and not alienate them?

I don't draw the line, the law does. If they break our laws, they go down, like the rest of us.

If they are homicidal moderates fanatics they will be charged with murder (if they are caught). That's fine by me. NO SUPPORT/NO SUPPORT/NO SUPPORT.

If the are non-homicidal moderates, that's fine by me.

If they are homicidal terrorists, that a bad thing. Cannot under any circumstances be a moderate.

Fanatical terrorists....bad.

No such animal as moderate terrorists. If they want to wear the terrorist badge, they must be fanatical terrorists.

Moderate Muslims....good like moderate Christians.

Wishy-washy Muslim....good like wishy-washy Christian (seat warmers)

Quote:

If they are homicidal moderates fanatics they will be charged with murder (if they are caught). That's fine by me. NO SUPPORT/NO SUPPORT/NO SUPPORT.

They will be charged with murder if they murder someone. If they merely promote the execution of gays 'by the book', they will receive your continued support, right?


Quote:

If the are non-homicidal moderates, that's fine by me.

So you draw the line at killing people unlawfully? You will support these Muslims up to that point? It must be terribly convenient having such flexible morals.

It's always a relief to see the moderate Muselmen didn't get you overnight freediver.

I don't give a stuff what tripe their book says or what they say. It mustn't be against the law, otherwise ASIO would be onto them like a ton of bricks.

Actions speak louder than words.

freediver wrote on Jul 12^th, 2015 at 8:50am:

Quote: If they are homicidal moderates fanatics they will be charged with murder (if they are caught). That's fine by me. NO SUPPORT/NO SUPPORT/NO SUPPORT. They will be charged with murder if they murder someone. If they merely promote the execution of gays 'by the book', they will receive your continued support, right? [quote]If the are non-homicidal moderates, that's fine by me.

So you draw the line at killing people unlawfully? You will support these Muslims up to that point? It must be terribly convenient having such flexible morals.[/quote]


lol!!! it's called murder, I've never been a fan of it actually.

Flexible morals???? I see no reason to to judge people that are law abiding citizens.

So if someone calls for the law to be changed so gays can be executed, you would still be on their side? Is the law your only moral compass?

Ex Dame Pansi wrote on Jul 12^th, 2015 at 8:59am:

It's always a relief to see the moderate Muselmen didn't get you overnight freediver. I don't give a stuff what tripe their book says or what they say. It mustn't be against the law, otherwise ASIO would be onto them like a ton of bricks. Actions speak louder than words.

pansi,

Every reasonable and sane person [alive in the world today], realises that ISLAM is a murderous death cult,      but the political leaders of almost all Western nations 'refuse to speak its name' [for reasons of 'Political Correctness', refuse to publicly acknowledge the truth, of what ISLAM is.]

e.g.

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1436013837

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1421158879/6#6




.






FURTHER;

Yadda said....
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1418244166/15#15

Quote:

You mean that we [infidels, on OzPol] are guilty of 'stereotyping' members of the Australian mainstream moslem community!!!! Shock horror!!!! Fancy having the gall to associate moslems,     .......with,      .....moslems! Fancy having the gall to associate moslems,     .......with,      .....ISLAM [and with ISLAM's laws and tenets] ! Dictionary; Muslim = = a follower of Islam. Google; Shahada, confession of faith, of a muslim

.



Yadda said....
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1431117115/1#1

Quote:

"every moslem in Australia is a latent, wanna-be homicidal maniac" - Yadda QUESTION; What about the innocent moslems ? IMO, [logically] there are no innocent moslems [among persons who have come to the age of consent], and yet still declare themselves to be moslems. How so [logically] ? QUESTION; How credible is it that a person who is devout enough to insist that he is a moslem, is unaware of what ISLAM promotes, and is unaware of what the principle tenets of ISLAM are ? QUESTION; How 'innocent' is a person who agrees to give aid and comfort [and to give their own 'power'],      ...to a philosophy which transforms human beings, into homicidal maniacs ? QUESTION; How 'innocent' is a person who agrees to give aid and comfort [and to give their own 'power'],     ...to a philosophy which claims that murdering, in the cause of religious bigotry, is a religious virtue ?

a philosophy which transforms human beings, into homicidal maniacs ?



What utter rubbish. If that was the case they'd all be lopping heads off, but a very minute percentage of Muslims do.


What was I saying about extremist maniacs?

Pansi, if someone calls for the law to be changed so gays can be executed, would you still be on their side? Is the law your only moral compass?

Gnads wrote on Jul 6^th, 2015 at 7:39am:

No pansy ... that's those who support & or follow the radical/fundmentalist views ... on Sharia Law, polygamy, wearing full burkha, women not driving, stoning women for adultery or being raped, non education rights to women, child marriage, religious & infidel intolerance etc etc Remember that's out of 1.6 billion Muslims.

Do the maths. 400 million out of 1.6 billion is a minority.

Yadda wrote on Jul 12^th, 2015 at 10:36am:

Every reasonable and sane person [alive in the world today], realises that ISLAM is a murderous death cult,     e.g.

Tell me. How many murders did Muhammad Ali, (previously Cassius Clay), commit after his conversion to Islam?

Give us the figures for the last 50 years on how many of the millions of moslems living in Europe and the Americas have committed murder in the name of their faith.

Ex Dame Pansi wrote on Jul 12^th, 2015 at 4:53pm:

a philosophy which transforms human beings, into homicidal maniacs ? What utter rubbish. If that was the case they'd all be lopping heads off, but a very minute percentage of Muslims do. What was I saying about extremist maniacs?

I do not know.

What were you saying about extremist maniacs,       ....pansi ??????????



IMAGE...
cartoon-protest12.jpg

Moslem child, on the streets of London, demonstrating that he understands the basics of his faith - Mohammedanism


Proverbs 22:6
Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.





.




IMAGE....
http://www.barenakedislam.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/behead-all-those-who-insult-the-prophet11.jpg

"Behead all those who insult the Prophet"

The result of children, being under the influence of 'Aussie' moslems - Sydney, 2012





IMAGE....
http://resources2.news.com.au/images/2014/08/27/1227038/812722-d0870956-2cc7-11e4-a978-2255e0b773c2.jpg

"Behead those who insult ISLAM"
Islamic Protest - IN AUSTRALIA - on the streets of Sydney from Hyde Park to George Streets, September 15, 2012.






The influence of ISLAM's hatred [for non-moslems], in the homes of moslems;
IMAGE...
http://www.jihadwatch.org/Parviz.jpg


Quote:

February 18, 2008 UK jihadist taught five-year-old son: "Kuffar -- kill! Sheikh Osama bin Laden I love" ......"Who do you kill?" asked Khan. "America kill," said the boy. "Who else you kill?" said Khan. "Bush I kill," said the boy. "And who else?" demanded Khan. "Blair kill, both people kill." "Who else you kill?" asked Khan. "Saddam, Saddam," said the boy. Then the pair began chanting at each other. Khan said: "Kuffar [non-believers]" the boy said: "Kill." Khan said: "Mushrik [polytheists]" and the boy said: "Kill."

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2008/02/uk-jihadist-taught-five-year-old-son-kuffar----kill-sheikh-osama-bin-laden-i-love.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2008/02/18/nkidnap218.xml



Of course, ISLAM/moslems sanction such indoctrination of hatred of non-moslems [the hatred towards what is not ISLAM], in moslem children, as 'normal'.

ISLAMIC doctrines teach moslems, that infidels who are not [actual] human beings [in the eyes of Allah] - because the infidels are not moslems!



"Surely the vilest of animals in Allah's sight are those who disbelieve."
Koran 8.55

Google;
vilest of creatures, koran



Moslem child, on the streets of London, demonstrating that he understands the basics of his faith - Mohammedanism

-------- >

---

freediver wrote on Jul 12^th, 2015 at 6:52pm:

Pansi, if someone calls for the law to be changed so gays can be executed, would you still be on their side? Is the law your only moral compass?

My conscience is my moral compass.

I already said I'm not on anyone's side. How many ways can you ask the same silly question?


I already said no executions, not even in the name of the state, that means the death penalty.

I am anti death....apart from natural causes, euthanasia and accident.

Radical wrote on Jul 12^th, 2015 at 11:04pm:

Gnads wrote on Jul 6th, 2015 at 7:39am: No pansy ... that's those who support & or follow the radical/fundmentalist views ... on Sharia Law, polygamy, wearing full burkha, women not driving, stoning women for adultery or being raped, non education rights to women, child marriage, religious & infidel intolerance etc etc Remember that's out of 1.6 billion Muslims. Do the maths. 400 million out of 1.6 billion is a minority.

Great. So less than half of the world's Muslims are homicidal lunatics. That's reassuring.


Quote:

My conscience is my moral compass.

So why do you keep defering to the law as your moral compass instead of making a judgement on what is a crystal clear issue for most civilised people?


Quote:

I already said I'm not on anyone's side. How many ways can you ask the same silly question?

So what does your moral compass say to you about people who promote the legal execution of gays when down at the mosque, but are otherwise getting on with life, working, struggling to pay rent or mortgage, bringing up their children? That they are part of the 'mainstream majority' you feel compelled to defend?


Quote:

I already said no executions

So did I Pansi. Do you want me to repeat the question? Perhaps I need to find a few different ways to ask it?

Quote:

Remember that's out of 1.6 billion Muslims. Do the maths. 400 million out of 1.6 billion is a minority. Great. So less than half of the world's Muslims are homicidal lunatics. That's reassuring.

Merely pointing out that 25% is clearly a minority.

Having the need to suggest that 25% is not a minority suggests the author has a need for gross exaggeration because his/her argument does not stack up. Inferring that there are 400 million homicidal maniacs on the loose around the globe confirms a similar need for exaggeration.

freediver wrote on Jul 13^th, 2015 at 7:15pm:

So what does your moral compass say to you about people who promote the legal execution of gays when down at the mosque, but are otherwise getting on with life, working, struggling to pay rent or mortgage, bringing up their children? That they are part of the 'mainstream majority' you feel compelled to defend?

My moral compass on that one hardly moves.

I totally don't give a stuff what they say down at the mosque, they're not carrying the talk through so it doesn't matter.

I wonder how many Imam's promote the slaughter of gays anyway, probably very few, I doubt they'd dwell on it as much as you do.

They say it but they don't do it and neither does their followers.

How many Christians tithe 10% of their earnings? very few I can tell you. I saw a few $5, $10 and $20 notes going in the bag but that's not 10%....see they talk the talk but don't walk the walk.

Bottom line

I don't care what they say, it's all talk.

Quote:

I totally don't give a stuff what they say down at the mosque, they're not carrying the talk through so it doesn't matter.

So your moral compass doesn't even register Muslims promoting the execution of gays? What about if Nazis started promoting the gassing of Jews, would you be standing on the sidelines telling people that everything is fine up until the first pellets drop?


Quote:

I wonder how many Imam's promote the slaughter of gays anyway, probably very few, I doubt they'd dwell on it as much as you do.

It is your response I am dwelling on Pansi.


Quote:

They say it but they don't do it and neither does their followers.

Except of course, when they do. I'd hate to see what those 100 or so Aussie Muslims rampaging across the middle east would do with any gays they find.


Quote:

How many Christians tithe 10% of their earnings? very few I can tell you. I saw a few $5, $10 and $20 notes going in the bag but that's not 10%....see they talk the talk but don't walk the walk.

I actually used to go spearing with a bloke who tithed his income. That was after tax, I think. And of course we have seen enough Muslims here who support the execution of gays. Even Gandalf can't seem to make up his mind on that one. But still you insist there is nothing wrong or immoral with this.

Like I said, I don't care what they sprout, it's all talk.

Of course it's a weird thing to say, but there's even a couple of posters on here that have some immoral things to say about gays, but it's just words and it's not against the law......until they put those words into action.

I am not asking you to tell me what the law says pansi. I am asking you which way your moral compass points. Let me know when it stops spinning.

freediver wrote on Jul 15^th, 2015 at 10:06pm:

I am not asking you to tell me what the law says pansi. I am asking you which way your moral compass points. Let me know when it stops spinning.

I don't care what any religion sprouts, it's all talk in my opinion.

Get it freediver?

my moral compass has stopped spinning

is pointing directly to

DON'T CARE WHAT THEY SAY

THE END

you are boring me to death

It's pretty obvious pansi that you are supporting freedom of speech (without directly saying so) which, of itself is a worthy and noteable position to take in the modern world.... As you say, it is just words.

I guess then the real question is, why doesn't FD promote freedom of speech? Odd thing really.

I know he will now throw some relativism at the argument, once again to denounce free speech.

freediver wrote on Jul 4^th, 2015 at 10:06am:

Quote: The moderates are not homicidal, you'd know about it if they were, there'd be heads hacked off left, right and centre. Interesting dichotomy their pansi. Homicidal does not have to mean stupid and self destructive. Islam supposedly forbids Muslims from starting a fight they cannot win. Are you suggesting that you would support anyone, no matter how objectionable their political views, so long as they stop short of personally killing people this instant?

Are you saying you would personally kill people who or may not may pose a murderous threat in the future?

I'm keen to know what you think, FD.

freediver wrote on Jul 14^th, 2015 at 12:42pm:

Even Gandalf can't seem to make up his mind on that one. But still you insist there is nothing wrong or immoral with this.

But FD, Gandalf has been very clear that he doesn't support killing hommersexuals. He's told you that at least a hundred times over the last 3 years.

But still you insist that there is nothing wrong or immoral about your porkies.

Cunning, no?

Quote:

I don't care what any religion sprouts, it's all talk in my opinion. Get it freediver?

What about when they start posting videos of their war crimes on the internet because it is such a wonderful recruiting tool for their co-religionists? Is that all talk?


Quote:

my moral compass has stopped spinning is pointing directly to DON'T CARE WHAT THEY SAY

So promoting the execution of gays is neither moral nor immoral in your opinion?


Quote:

It's pretty obvious pansi that you are supporting freedom of speech (without directly saying so) which, of itself is a worthy and noteable position to take in the modern world.... As you say, it is just words. I guess then the real question is, why doesn't FD promote freedom of speech? Odd thing really.

I am not asking what we should be permitted to say Phem.


Quote:

But FD, Gandalf has been very clear that he doesn't support killing hommersexuals.

He has been the opposite of clear. The closest he came to giving a straight answer was using his own words to discredit his own words, and to insist over several pages that I lied about what he said because he posted several contradictory views.

freediver wrote on Jul 16^th, 2015 at 9:12pm:

Quote: I don't care what any religion sprouts, it's all talk in my opinion. Get it freediver? What about when they start posting videos of their war crimes on the internet because it is such a wonderful recruiting tool for their co-religionists? Is that all talk? That's ISIS, they are terrorists, not moderate Muslims. The world hates those terrorist idiots [quote]my moral compass has stopped spinning is pointing directly to DON'T CARE WHAT THEY SAY

So promoting the execution of gays is neither moral nor immoral in your opinion?

I'm not getting into the immoral or moral aspect of gay execution talk, but I'll tell you what I think is immoral, marrying young girls and female circumcision, it's grose and disgusting, and it's also against OUR laws here in Oz.


Quote:

It's pretty obvious pansi that you are supporting freedom of speech (without directly saying so) which, of itself is a worthy and noteable position to take in the modern world.... As you say, it is just words. I guess then the real question is, why doesn't FD promote freedom of speech? Odd thing really.

I am not asking what we should be permitted to say Phem.


Quote:

But FD, Gandalf has been very clear that he doesn't support killing hommersexuals.

He has been the opposite of clear. The closest he came to giving a straight answer was using his own words to discredit his own words, and to insist over several pages that I lied about what he said because he posted several contradictory views.[/quote]


Freediver, one minute you're talking about moderate Muslims, then you go on about ISIS terrorist acts. You cannot compare moderates whom may preach disturbing stuff with the maniacal terrorists who are chopping heads off.

Quote:

That's ISIS, they are terrorists, not moderate Muslims. The world hates those terrorist idiots

So you are happy with the talk, because it is "all talk," right up until they actually start chopping people's heads off, at which point you object to them breaking the law?


Quote:

I'm not getting into the immoral or moral aspect of gay execution talk

That's what this thread is about Pansi, in case you hadn't noticed.


Quote:

Freediver, one minute you're talking about moderate Muslims, then you go on about ISIS terrorist acts. You cannot compare moderates whom may preach disturbing stuff with the maniacal terrorists who are chopping heads off.

Pick any one of the 100 or so Aussie Muslims raping and pillaging their way across the middle east. Before they left, you would have insisted they were moderates and deserving of your support, because their talk of killing people was "all talk." It is always "all talk" until it isn't.

freediver wrote on Jul 17^th, 2015 at 10:23pm:

Quote: That's ISIS, they are terrorists, not moderate Muslims. The world hates those terrorist idiots So you are happy with the talk, because it is "all talk," right up until they actually start chopping people's heads off, at which point you object to them breaking the law? [quote]I'm not getting into the immoral or moral aspect of gay execution talk

That's what this thread is about Pansi, in case you hadn't noticed.


Quote:

Freediver, one minute you're talking about moderate Muslims, then you go on about ISIS terrorist acts. You cannot compare moderates whom may preach disturbing stuff with the maniacal terrorists who are chopping heads off.

Pick any one of the 100 or so Aussie Muslims raping and pillaging their way across the middle east. Before they left, you would have insisted they were moderates and deserving of your support, because their talk of killing people was "all talk." It is always "all talk" until it isn't.[/quote]


That's right. It's always 'all talk' until it isn't and at that point it becomes terrorism. The 100 Aussie Muslim terrorists will not be coming back, apparently. They will either be killed by their own people or left to make some sort of life in the hell hole they went to or some other similar country if they can get there.

You do trust ASIO to do their job efficiently, don't you?

That still leaves the issue of where your moral compass is pointing. Why are you incapable of criticising these people until they start hacking people's heads off?

freediver wrote on Jul 18^th, 2015 at 10:57am:

That still leaves the issue of where your moral compass is pointing. Why are you incapable of criticising these people until they start hacking people's heads off?

Or more to the point, why are you incapable of telling porkies about these people that they want to start hacking people’s heads off?

That’s what FD’s moral compass is getting at.

freediver wrote on Jul 18^th, 2015 at 10:57am:

That still leaves the issue of where your moral compass is pointing. Why are you incapable of criticising these people until they start hacking people's heads off?

I've got more important things to do than criticise than a few Muzzies chanting obscenities in a mosque.....like why are we allowing prime agricultural land to be mined? or why is this country lagging behind the rest of the world on technology or why do politicians spend so much of taxpayers money on themselves, there's heaps then right near the bottom of my business we have Muzzies, Mosques and Islam.

Ex Dame Pansi wrote on Jul 18^th, 2015 at 11:45am:

freediver wrote on Jul 18th, 2015 at 10:57am: That still leaves the issue of where your moral compass is pointing. Why are you incapable of criticising these people until they start hacking people's heads off? I've got more important things to do than criticise than a few Muzzies chanting obscenities in a mosque.....like why are we allowing prime agricultural land to be mined? or why is this country lagging behind the rest of the world on technology or why do politicians spend so much of taxpayers money on themselves, there's heaps then right near the bottom of my business we have Muzzies, Mosques and Islam.

The thing is, they don’t shout obscenties in mosques. That’s just what FD wants you to think. You know, his moral compass and everything.

Karnal wrote on Jul 18^th, 2015 at 11:49am:

Ex Dame Pansi wrote on Jul 18th, 2015 at 11:45am: freediver wrote on Jul 18th, 2015 at 10:57am: That still leaves the issue of where your moral compass is pointing. Why are you incapable of criticising these people until they start hacking people's heads off? I've got more important things to do than criticise than a few Muzzies chanting obscenities in a mosque.....like why are we allowing prime agricultural land to be mined? or why is this country lagging behind the rest of the world on technology or why do politicians spend so much of taxpayers money on themselves, there's heaps then right near the bottom of my business we have Muzzies, Mosques and Islam. The thing is, they don’t shout obscenties in mosques. That’s just what FD wants you to think. You know, his moral compass and everything.

Freediver got carried along in the right wing terrorist fear rhetoric, he's scared because he's been told over and over again to be scared.

They're coming for us, Tony said so.

Ex Dame Pansi wrote on Jul 18^th, 2015 at 11:45am:

freediver wrote on Jul 18th, 2015 at 10:57am: That still leaves the issue of where your moral compass is pointing. Why are you incapable of criticising these people until they start hacking people's heads off? I've got more important things to do than criticise than a few Muzzies chanting obscenities in a mosque.....like why are we allowing prime agricultural land to be mined? or why is this country lagging behind the rest of the world on technology or why do politicians spend so much of taxpayers money on themselves, there's heaps then right near the bottom of my business we have Muzzies, Mosques and Islam.

But you don't Pansi. You seem to think it is important to keep reminding people that you will defend "moderates," even when they promote the execution of gays. You will do it in the future again and again - your own words. You are not refraining from criticism out of lack of interest, but out of actual support for these people. You feign lack of interest now, but only because the issue has become your own apparent lack of moral compass.

freediver wrote on Jul 18^th, 2015 at 12:02pm:

Ex Dame Pansi wrote on Jul 18th, 2015 at 11:45am: freediver wrote on Jul 18th, 2015 at 10:57am: That still leaves the issue of where your moral compass is pointing. Why are you incapable of criticising these people until they start hacking people's heads off? I've got more important things to do than criticise than a few Muzzies chanting obscenities in a mosque.....like why are we allowing prime agricultural land to be mined? or why is this country lagging behind the rest of the world on technology or why do politicians spend so much of taxpayers money on themselves, there's heaps then right near the bottom of my business we have Muzzies, Mosques and Islam. But you don't Pansi. You seem to think it is important to keep reminding people that you will defend "moderates," even when they promote the execution of gays. You will do it in the future again and again - your own words. You are not refraining from criticism out of lack of interest, but out of actual support for these people. You feign lack of interest now, but only because the issue has become your own apparent lack of moral compass.

I don't spend much time thinking or talking about Islam or Muslims, I'm not obsessed with every little thing they say.

How many are saying this?

You give me some answers to the actual numbers of Imams that are promoting the execution of gays in Australia.

I want to know what percentage of Mosques are promoting this on a regular basis.

I would be surprised if it's more than a few fanatical Imam's that promote this stuff......storm in a teacup freediver.

Have you actually been to a mosque and listened for yourself? Would you know what they're saying when you don't speak Arabic? Have you done any actual research or do you just believe the MSM and the fear mongering promoted by dear leader?

So........how many Christians are executing gays? It's in their holy book too, but they don't all run around the streets on Sunday afternoons rounding up gays and killing them.

As I said, silly words written by some old codgers in the dark ages.

Is the Christian version ok freediver?


"Well the Bible teaches actually that gays should be executed.

Because it actually says in Leviticus 20:13 that if a man also lie with mankind as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination, they shall surely be put to death, their blood shall be upon them,"

Quote:

How many are saying this?

Would it matter? Does your moral compass somehow depend on the popularity of a movement?


Quote:

Have you actually been to a mosque and listened for yourself? Would you know what they're saying when you don't speak Arabic? Have you done any actual research or do you just believe the MSM and the fear mongering promoted by dear leader?

This is about your views Pansi. I don't have to know anything at all about them to question what you post here. It would be disturbing if you were defending one Muslim or a billion of them.

freediver wrote on Jul 19^th, 2015 at 8:22am:

Quote: How many are saying this? Would it matter? Does your moral compass somehow depend on the popularity of a movement? [quote]Have you actually been to a mosque and listened for yourself? Would you know what they're saying when you don't speak Arabic? Have you done any actual research or do you just believe the MSM and the fear mongering promoted by dear leader?

This is about your views Pansi. I don't have to know anything at all about them to question what you post here. It would be disturbing if you were defending one Muslim or a billion of them.[/quote]



It would certainly be disturbing if I was defending one terrorist, but I'm not, so please do not be disturbed.

It's also disturbing that you blame innocent people for the actions of a few.

Anyway, my Muslim friends are cool and I intend to fully support them, if there comes a time when they are treated unfairly by people like you and the 200 protesters that were out sprouting their hatred and bigotry yesterday.


"Well the Bible teaches actually that gays should be executed.

Because it actually says in Leviticus 20:13 that if a man also lie with mankind as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination, they shall surely be put to death, their blood shall be upon them,"

What do your friends think of Muhammed's command to execute gays?

freediver wrote on Jul 19^th, 2015 at 1:41pm:

What do your friends think of Muhammed's command to execute gays?

How many Christians follow the bible.....I mean really follow the teachings?....examples being longweekend and sprintcyclist.

It's the same with Islam.....how many really follow the teachings of Mohammad? How many Muslims eat porky pig in their own homes, behind closed doors?

I was in Morocco travelling all day on a bus during Ramadam and I can tell you for sure they aint abstaining from food and drink or smokes.....not all of them anyway.

freediver wrote on Jul 19^th, 2015 at 1:41pm:

What do your friends think of Muhammed's command to execute gays?

"Well the Bible teaches actually that gays should be executed.

Because it actually says in Leviticus 20:13 that if a man also lie with mankind as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination, they shall surely be put to death, their blood shall be upon them,"


What do your Christian friends think of God's orders to execute gays?

The conservative ones think gays should not be allowed to get legally married. I don't think Jesus instructed anyone to start killing in his name. Which brings us back to Muhammed. What do your Muslim friends think of Muhammed's command to execute gays? Would you still be friends with them if they were in favour of it?