So, does Islam need a Martin Luther?   Mehdi Hasan, suggests not.

Brian Ross wrote on May 18^th, 2015 at 7:34pm:

So, does Islam need a Martin Luther?   Mehdi Hasan, suggests not.

Does Islam need to change??


Yes.

I think you will notice that most of these calls for reformation are made in the West which tends to take the edge off any serious endeavour.

I don’t believe Islam can be reformed anyway. It is not a single entity; it is a bunch of tribes who can’t agree on anything, much less the meaning of Islam.

You have got the schism between those who believe Mohammed’s father-in-law was the big guy and those who think it should be it should be Moh’s cousin. And for this stupidity they have been murdering each other for hundreds of years.

And then you have this prick in Afghanistan who says he is descended from Mohammed.

Way out in the Philippines, in Melbourne and in Texas you have got people supporting this tribalism. No one is going to reform a bunch of superstitious, salivating goat f*-kers.

Soren wrote on May 18^th, 2015 at 8:22pm:

Brian Ross wrote on May 18th, 2015 at 7:34pm: So, does Islam need a Martin Luther?   Mehdi Hasan, suggests not. Does Islam need to change?? Yes.

Islam is ever changing, Soren. Each Muslim makes their own views on the matter known to themselves and their God, Allah.

The question is does Islam need a Martin Luther?  Would you care to answer the question instead of avoiding it?    ::)

Brian Ross wrote on May 18^th, 2015 at 8:28pm:

Soren wrote on May 18th, 2015 at 8:22pm: Brian Ross wrote on May 18th, 2015 at 7:34pm: So, does Islam need a Martin Luther?   Mehdi Hasan, suggests not. Does Islam need to change?? Yes. Islam is ever changing, Soren. Each Muslim makes their own views on the matter known to themselves and their God, Allah. The question is does Islam need a Martin Luther?  Would you care to answer the question instead of avoiding it?    ::)

Yes.

They need to convert to Lutheranism or be banned. Freeeedom, innit.

Brian Ross wrote on May 18^th, 2015 at 8:28pm:

Soren wrote on May 18th, 2015 at 8:22pm: Brian Ross wrote on May 18th, 2015 at 7:34pm: So, does Islam need a Martin Luther?   Mehdi Hasan, suggests not. Does Islam need to change?? Yes. Islam is ever changing, Soren. Each Muslim makes their own views on the matter known to themselves and their God, Allah. The question is does Islam need a Martin Luther?  Would you care to answer the question instead of avoiding it?    ::)

Oh, give us a break! Muslims at least as easily led as any other group who believe theirs is the only interpretation of the universe.

issuevoter wrote on May 18^th, 2015 at 8:27pm:

I think you will notice that most of these calls for reformation are made in the West which tends to take the edge off any serious endeavour. I don’t believe Islam can be reformed anyway. It is not a single entity; it is a bunch of tribes who can’t agree on anything, much less the meaning of Islam. You have got the schism between those who believe Mohammed’s father-in-law was the big guy and those who think it should be it should be Moh’s cousin. And for this stupidity they have been murdering each other for hundreds of years. And then you have this prick in Afghanistan who says he is descended from Mohammed. Way out in the Philippines, in Melbourne and in Texas you have got people supporting this tribalism. No one is going to reform a bunch of superstitious, salivating goat f*-kers.

So, this is how you perceive your fellow Australians who happen to be Muslims?  As "superstitious, salivating goat f*-kers"?    Nice.

Brian Ross wrote on May 18^th, 2015 at 8:28pm:

Islam is ever changing, Soren. Each Muslim makes their own views on the matter known to themselves and their God, Allah.

Oh dear, only a few moments ago you were stating the "real" meaning of jihad.  No room for each muslim to make their own views on the matter there then?  ::)

issuevoter wrote on May 18^th, 2015 at 8:39pm:

Oh, give us a break! Muslims at least as easily led as any other group who believe theirs is the only interpretation of the universe.

You mean like Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, Catholics, Lutherans, Anglicans, etc.?  ::)

Brian Ross wrote on May 18^th, 2015 at 8:28pm:

Soren wrote on May 18th, 2015 at 8:22pm: Brian Ross wrote on May 18th, 2015 at 7:34pm: So, does Islam need a Martin Luther?   Mehdi Hasan, suggests not. Does Islam need to change?? Yes. Islam is ever changing, Soren.

How has it changed?

Islam is ever unchanging. 

Soren wrote on May 18^th, 2015 at 9:47pm:

Brian Ross wrote on May 18th, 2015 at 8:28pm: Soren wrote on May 18th, 2015 at 8:22pm: Brian Ross wrote on May 18th, 2015 at 7:34pm: So, does Islam need a Martin Luther?   Mehdi Hasan, suggests not. Does Islam need to change?? Yes. Islam is ever changing, Soren. How has it changed? Islam is ever unchanging.

Using your views, Soren, Christianity hasn't changed either...   ::)

Does Islam need a Martin Luther?  I think it's already had it's Luther, many times over.  Wasn't Osama bin Laden one?   ;D :D ;D :D ;D :D ;D :D ;D

|dev|null wrote on May 19^th, 2015 at 10:59am:

Does Islam need a Martin Luther?  I think it's already had it's Luther, many times over.  Wasn't Osama bin Laden one?   ;D :D ;D :D ;D :D ;D :D ;D

That was Lex Luther, bravely defeated by Uncle and his super powers.

A Martin Luther would be haram - the old boy and his cohorts simply won't allow it.

Always, absolutely, never ever, remember. Islam is the enemy. Islam has always been the enemy. Islam WILL always be the enemy, it must.

There simply aren't enough enemies to go around.

Exactly how would muslims reform islam and remove the commands from allah, the teachings of muhammad, the verses in the qur'an and hadi'th which are the root cause of muslims committing unspeakably inhumane human rights atrocities against their fellow man?

muslims are locked into the cycle of islamic depravity by:

(a). Their sacred tenets which exhort islamic decadence as a consecrated path for muslims.

(b). This supposedly divine dogma is declared to be infallible, perfect, never to be changed. 

(c). muslims have embraced islamic degeneracy for the last 1400 years, without any sign of a letup, who will get them to change now?

(d). Their apologists fight tooth and nail to stop reform also, as they will never blame muslims and islam for their own problems. Instead they embark on a never ending mode of excuses, lies, false analogies  etc.

Reform means that allah, muhammad and the qur'an were wrong, which in turn means the end of islam.

Brian Ross wrote on May 18^th, 2015 at 11:15pm:

Soren wrote on May 18th, 2015 at 9:47pm: Brian Ross wrote on May 18th, 2015 at 8:28pm: Soren wrote on May 18th, 2015 at 8:22pm: Brian Ross wrote on May 18th, 2015 at 7:34pm: So, does Islam need a Martin Luther?   Mehdi Hasan, suggests not. Does Islam need to change?? Yes. Islam is ever changing, Soren. How has it changed? Islam is ever unchanging.  Using your views, Soren, Christianity hasn't changed either...   ::)

Soooo, how has Islam changed?

You asserted it, you must know.

moses wrote on May 19^th, 2015 at 4:41pm:

Exactly how would muslims reform islam and remove the commands from allah, the teachings of muhammad, the verses in the qur'an and hadi'th which are the root cause of muslims committing unspeakably inhumane human rights atrocities against their fellow man? muslims are locked into the cycle of islamic depravity by: (a). Their sacred tenets which exhort islamic decadence as a consecrated path for muslims. (b). This supposedly divine dogma is declared to be infallible, perfect, never to be changed.  (c). muslims have embraced islamic degeneracy for the last 1400 years, without any sign of a letup, who will get them to change now? (d). Their apologists fight tooth and nail to stop reform also, as they will never blame muslims and islam for their own problems. Instead they embark on a never ending mode of excuses, lies, false analogies  etc. Reform means that allah, muhammad and the qur'an were wrong, which in turn means the end of islam.

Easy. You emphasise prayer, charity, fasting, pilgrimage, spiritual striving and hospitality to strangers.

You then put the history into perspective and trust that wisdom comes from spiritual practice, not dogma - humility, not books. You refuse to deify prophets, who are only human, but seek the Almighty in all.

But what am I saying? Millions of Muslims are doing this already.

Problem solved, Moses. Happy?

Soren wrote on May 19^th, 2015 at 6:07pm:

Brian Ross wrote on May 18th, 2015 at 11:15pm: Soren wrote on May 18th, 2015 at 9:47pm: Brian Ross wrote on May 18th, 2015 at 8:28pm: Soren wrote on May 18th, 2015 at 8:22pm: Brian Ross wrote on May 18th, 2015 at 7:34pm: So, does Islam need a Martin Luther?   Mehdi Hasan, suggests not. Does Islam need to change?? Yes. Islam is ever changing, Soren. How has it changed? Islam is ever unchanging.  Using your views, Soren, Christianity hasn't changed either...   ::) Soooo, how has Islam changed?

Well, it used to export civilisation to the West.

Now we export Freeeedom and demokracy to them.

It is a jolly world, no?

Karnal wrote on May 19^th, 2015 at 6:11pm:

Soren wrote on May 19th, 2015 at 6:07pm: Brian Ross wrote on May 18th, 2015 at 11:15pm: Soren wrote on May 18th, 2015 at 9:47pm: Brian Ross wrote on May 18th, 2015 at 8:28pm: Soren wrote on May 18th, 2015 at 8:22pm: Brian Ross wrote on May 18th, 2015 at 7:34pm: So, does Islam need a Martin Luther?   Mehdi Hasan, suggests not. Does Islam need to change?? Yes. Islam is ever changing, Soren. How has it changed? Islam is ever unchanging.  Using your views, Soren, Christianity hasn't changed either...   ::) Soooo, how has Islam changed? Well, it used to export civilisation to the West. Now we export Freeeedom and demokracy to them. It is a jolly world, no?

It's bollocks, on both accounts.

They did not export civilisation anywhere, least of all to the West - and they are not taking our export of civilisation now.

Soren wrote on May 19^th, 2015 at 6:35pm:

Karnal wrote on May 19th, 2015 at 6:11pm: Soren wrote on May 19th, 2015 at 6:07pm: Brian Ross wrote on May 18th, 2015 at 11:15pm: Soren wrote on May 18th, 2015 at 9:47pm: Brian Ross wrote on May 18th, 2015 at 8:28pm: Soren wrote on May 18th, 2015 at 8:22pm: Brian Ross wrote on May 18th, 2015 at 7:34pm: So, does Islam need a Martin Luther?   Mehdi Hasan, suggests not. Does Islam need to change?? Yes. Islam is ever changing, Soren. How has it changed? Islam is ever unchanging.  Using your views, Soren, Christianity hasn't changed either...   ::) Soooo, how has Islam changed? Well, it used to export civilisation to the West. Now we export Freeeedom and demokracy to them. It is a jolly world, no? It's bollocks, on both accounts. They did not export civilisation anywhere, least of all to the West - and they are not taking our export of civilisation now.

Thanks for letting me know, dear boy. Good show.

Karnal wrote on May 19^th, 2015 at 8:15pm:

Thanks for letting me know, dear boy. Good show.

I have been letting you know for years, PB, but you couldn't be more resistant to improvement.
Grinning and sneering is all you ever get to, and that's when you make an effort.

Soren wrote on May 19^th, 2015 at 9:31pm:

Karnal wrote on May 19th, 2015 at 8:15pm: Thanks for letting me know, dear boy. Good show. I have been letting you know for years, PB, but you couldn't be more resistant to improvement. Grinning and sneering is all you ever get to, and that's when you make an effort.

No no, old boy, nothing to.apologise for. Your effort above is sterling. Just the ticket.

Let’s not let on to Mother though, eh?  We’ll keep this one between ourselves.

Carry on, dear boy.

Karnal wrote:
Quote:

Easy. You emphasise prayer, charity, fasting, pilgrimage, spiritual striving and hospitality to strangers. You then put the history into perspective and trust that wisdom comes from spiritual practice, not dogma - humility, not books. You refuse to deify prophets, who are only human, but seek the Almighty in all. But what am I saying? Millions of Muslims are doing this already. Problem solved, Moses. Happy?

No, you are advocating a fairy tale of a supposed future islam, which would be the antithesis of what islam is today.

You didn't address the problem E.G.:  the pure evil contained in commands, teachings and verses of islam. (what do muslims do with it?)

moses wrote on May 20^th, 2015 at 4:58pm:

Karnal wrote: Quote: Easy. You emphasise prayer, charity, fasting, pilgrimage, spiritual striving and hospitality to strangers. You then put the history into perspective and trust that wisdom comes from spiritual practice, not dogma - humility, not books. You refuse to deify prophets, who are only human, but seek the Almighty in all. But what am I saying? Millions of Muslims are doing this already. Problem solved, Moses. Happy? No, you are advocating a fairy tale of a supposed future islam, which would be the antithesis of what islam is today. You didn't address the problem E.G.:  the pure evil contained in commands, teachings and verses of islam. (what do muslims do with it?)

I just told you. I’m only telling you what Muslims have told me, you know.

Do you really think I could make something like that up?

I’m not that good at taqiyya.

Soren wrote on May 19^th, 2015 at 6:35pm:

It's bollocks, on both accounts.

Really, Soren?


Quote:

They did not export civilisation anywhere, least of all to the West -

So, what about their preservation of the science, the medicine, the philosophy of the Ancients which the West had conveniently forgotten or ignored, Soren?   You are aware, I take it of what contribution the taking of the city of Toledo and its massive libraries by the Spaniards from the Moors had on the kick starting of the Renaissance?


Quote:

and they are not taking our export of civilisation now.

I suppose they don't appreciate it being exported on the tips of bayonets, Soren.   ::)

Brian Ross wrote on May 20^th, 2015 at 8:27pm:

Soren wrote on May 19th, 2015 at 6:35pm: It's bollocks, on both accounts. So, what about their preservation of the science, the medicine, the philosophy of the Ancients which the West had conveniently forgotten or ignored, Soren?   You are aware, I take it of what contribution the taking of the city of Toledo and its massive libraries by the Spaniards from the Moors had on the kick starting of the Renaissance?

Bollocks. It's just not true.

It's the same caper as the 'Arabic' numbers. They are not Arabic at all but Indian.

The renaissance was not kick started by the Muslims except by finally overrunning Byzantium and causing a massive influx of Greek refugees and books to the West.

The 'preservation' of antiquity by the Muslims is a load of nonsense.

Soren wrote on May 20^th, 2015 at 9:59pm:

Brian Ross wrote on May 20th, 2015 at 8:27pm: Soren wrote on May 19th, 2015 at 6:35pm: It's bollocks, on both accounts. So, what about their preservation of the science, the medicine, the philosophy of the Ancients which the West had conveniently forgotten or ignored, Soren?   You are aware, I take it of what contribution the taking of the city of Toledo and its massive libraries by the Spaniards from the Moors had on the kick starting of the Renaissance? Bollocks. It's just not true. It's the same caper as the 'Arabic' numbers. They are not Arabic at all but Indian. The renaissance was not kick started by the Muslims except by finally overrunning Byzantium and causing a massive influx of Greek refugees and books to the West. The 'preservation' of antiquity by the Muslims is a load of nonsense.

Funny how all the historians believe otherwise, Soren...   ::)

Arabic numbers were developed in India - not by Arabs, but by Muslim Persians.

Rich tapestry, innit.

Karnal wrote on May 21^st, 2015 at 9:27am:

Arabic numbers were developed in India - not by Arabs, but by Muslim Persians. Rich tapestry, innit.

Yeah.

Moslems invented Algebra, and Arabic numbers, and the first computer chip, and discovered the Americas, and discovered radio waves,   ...and falafal's, too.

The list of moslem accomplishments is endless.         :D


Its a rich tapestry of moslem lies and deceit, innit.




And don't forget Islamophobia!!!!

Moslems discovered Islamophobia too!!!!

http://www.frontpagemag.com/2014/robert-spencer/the-top-anti-muslim-hate-crime-hoaxes-of-2014/




.



Yadda said....

Quote:

[quote] Chief Muslim claims Jewish Temples never existed March 15, 2007 "....The Jewish Temples never existed.......descriptions of the Jewish Temples in the Hebrew Tanach, in the Talmud and in Byzantine and Roman writings from the Temple periods were forged, and that the Torah was falsified to claim Biblical patriarchs and matriarchs were Jewish when indeed they were prophets for Islam."

http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=40628




Quote:

Temple Mount '100% Islamic' June 01, 2008 "....Taysir Tamimi, chief Palestinian Justice and one of the most influential Muslim leaders in Israel, argued the Jewish Temples never existed,...."

http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=65919




n.b.
And just look how moslems respond,            when other independent historic sources, contradict the moslem 'narrative'....

".....descriptions of the Jewish Temples in the Hebrew Tanach, in the Talmud and in Byzantine and Roman writings from the Temple periods were forged,...."

But of course they were!           :o

[/quote]

Don't forget homos, Y.

Allah Uakbar.

Brian Ross wrote on May 18^th, 2015 at 8:28pm:

The question is does Islam need a Martin Luther?

They have one in Caliph Baghdadi.

Islam has been reforming,it's getting more fundamental.

moses wrote on May 20^th, 2015 at 4:58pm:

Karnal wrote: Quote: Easy. You emphasise prayer, charity, fasting, pilgrimage, spiritual striving and hospitality to strangers. You then put the history into perspective and trust that wisdom comes from spiritual practice, not dogma - humility, not books. You refuse to deify prophets, who are only human, but seek the Almighty in all. But what am I saying? Millions of Muslims are doing this already. Problem solved, Moses. Happy? No, you are advocating a fairy tale of a supposed future islam, which would be the antithesis of what islam is today. You didn't address the problem E.G.:  the pure evil contained in commands, teachings and verses of islam. (what do muslims do with it?)

Ignore them?  Rather like how Christians and Jews ignore the teachings of their respective religions...   ;D :D ;D :D ;D :D ;D :D ;D :D

Baronvonrort wrote on May 21^st, 2015 at 10:59am:

Brian Ross wrote on May 18th, 2015 at 8:28pm: The question is does Islam need a Martin Luther? They have one in Caliph Baghdadi.

Doesn't seem to be doing all that well, outside of the Sunni sect.  Not really a unifying person, is the old al-Bagdadi, now is he?   :D ;D :D ;D :D ;D :D ;D


Quote:

Islam has been reforming,it's getting more fundamental.

Some Muslims are, some Muslims, aren't Baron.  Not all Muslims are the same!  :D ;D :D ;D :D ;D :D ;D

Karnal wrote:
Quote:

I just told you. I’m only telling you what Muslims have told me, you know. Do you really think I could make something like that up? I’m not that good at taqiyya.

It appears everyone wants to dance around the one immutable fact in the islamic reformation scenario.

The scale of sheer evil contained in the sacred commands, teachings and verses of islam.

This evil is the root cause of all past and present islamic atrocities. What are muslims going to do with it?

Unless muslims can address this issue, talk of reform is just meaningless talk. Excuses put up by apologists are again just meaningless excuses. islamic barbarity  will continue it's unabated run.

moses wrote on May 21^st, 2015 at 3:16pm:

Karnal wrote: Quote: I just told you. I’m only telling you what Muslims have told me, you know. Do you really think I could make something like that up? I’m not that good at taqiyya. It appears everyone wants to dance around the one immutable fact in the islamic reformation scenario. The scale of sheer evil contained in the sacred commands, teachings and verses of islam. This evil is the root cause of all past and present islamic atrocities. What are muslims going to do with it? Unless muslims can address this issue, talk of reform is just meaningless talk. Excuses put up by apologists are again just meaningless excuses. islamic barbarity  will continue it's unabated run.

But they have. We have one of the Muselmen on this very board who has addressed just that.

If you recall, his take is that many of the aHadith were written by Arab warlords to reflect their own interests. The aHadith are not sacred commands, and nor should they be seen as such.

And yes, he has an Islamic school of thought to back it up. It's not just G's own ramblings, which I'm sure you'll agree, are articulate, intelligent, reflective and insightful.

There is not a "sheer scale of evil" in the Quran - not that I'm aware of, anyway. There are battles and executions and threats of executions. It was written during a time of war. It's purpose, described within, was to create peace. Much of the Quran is about just this - you just don't quote these bits. Just as you refuse to discuss all the executions and torture in the Old Testament.

I'm not sure how this could be a meaningless excuse when Muslims themselves believe it. I wouldn't be writing this if I thought they were fibbing. The few Muslim crazies I have seen on TV couldn't possibly fib about something like this. For them, everything's war and death and kuffars and eternal paradise. It's a bizarre take on life. Such fundamentalist dogma is indeed a form of death cult. It has all the elements of a cult - the exclusivity, the obsession with enemies, the willingness to kill and die for a cause, the obsession with rules, the hierarchical social structure, the belief that only your beliefs are the true path and everybody else is living in sin.

And none of the Muslims I've met believe it. Not one. 

The question I have for you, Moses, is whether your own beliefs contain such dogma. Your black and white language, your inflexible viewpoint, your fixed belief in good and evil - all reflect this.

Sometimes, as your own prophet said, it's worth examining the beam in your own eye before you point to the speck in someone else's.

To all religions and school counsellors, middle finger, raspberry.

bludger wrote on May 21^st, 2015 at 9:40pm:

To all religions and school counsellors, middle finger, raspberry.

Thanks Matty, thats really fair and even handed of you.   ;D ;D :D :D ;D ;D :D :D

Karnal wrote:
Quote:

But they have. We have one of the Muselmen on this very board who has addressed just that. If you recall, his take is that many of the aHadith were written by Arab warlords to reflect their own interests. The aHadith are not sacred commands, and nor should they be seen as such. And yes, he has an Islamic school of thought to back it up. It's not just G's own ramblings, which I'm sure you'll agree, are articulate, intelligent, reflective and insightful.

It's no good going on about the hadi'th only, depraved evilness permeates the entire spectrum of islam E.G.:the deeds and teachings of muhammad, the supposed commands of allah, the verses in the qur'an and the hadi'th, the supposedly sacred doctrine of islam.   


Quote:

There is not a "sheer scale of evil" in the Quran - not that I'm aware of, anyway. There are battles and executions and threats of executions. It was written during a time of war. It's purpose, described within, was to create peace. Much of the Quran is about just this - you just don't quote these bits. Just as you refuse to discuss all the executions and torture in the Old Testament.

Rubbish it's handbook of depravity giving divine sanction to muslims to rape, torture and murder their fellow man in the name of islam.

Create peace how? By mass slaughter, slavery, excessive subjugation and taxation, forced submission and conversion to islam?


Quote:

I'm not sure how this could be a meaningless excuse when Muslims themselves believe it. I wouldn't be writing this if I thought they were fibbing. The few Muslim crazies I have seen on TV couldn't possibly fib about something like this. For them, everything's war and death and kuffars and eternal paradise. It's a bizarre take on life. Such fundamentalist dogma is indeed a form of death cult. It has all the elements of a cult - the exclusivity, the obsession with enemies, the willingness to kill and die for a cause, the obsession with rules, the hierarchical social structure, the belief that only your beliefs are the true path and everybody else is living in sin. And none of the Muslims I've met believe it. Not one.

My question remains the same: what are muslims going to do about their sanctified doctrine which creates the fundamentalist islamic death cult?

Talk is cheap Karnal, if muslims and their apologists are fair dinkum, this is the principal issue they have to address.

There is no sanctified death cult doctrine, Moses. This is a figment of your - and the cultists’ - imagination.

I would  have said the same about the Bible during the Inquisitions. If I was allowed to read it - and if I could get away with it.

Big ifs, I know.

moses wrote on May 22^nd, 2015 at 3:55pm:

Karnal wrote: Quote: But they have. We have one of the Muselmen on this very board who has addressed just that. If you recall, his take is that many of the aHadith were written by Arab warlords to reflect their own interests. The aHadith are not sacred commands, and nor should they be seen as such. And yes, he has an Islamic school of thought to back it up. It's not just G's own ramblings, which I'm sure you'll agree, are articulate, intelligent, reflective and insightful. It's no good going on about the hadi'th only, depraved evilness permeates the entire spectrum of islam E.G.:the deeds and teachings of muhammad, the supposed commands of allah, the verses in the qur'an and the hadi'th, the supposedly sacred doctrine of islam.

How does that differ from The Bible?


Quote:

[quote] There is not a "sheer scale of evil" in the Quran - not that I'm aware of, anyway. There are battles and executions and threats of executions. It was written during a time of war. It's purpose, described within, was to create peace. Much of the Quran is about just this - you just don't quote these bits. Just as you refuse to discuss all the executions and torture in the Old Testament.

Rubbish it's handbook of depravity giving divine sanction to muslims to rape, torture and murder their fellow man in the name of islam.

Create peace how? By mass slaughter, slavery, excessive subjugation and taxation, forced submission and conversion to islam?
[/quote]

Christianity has been no different during it's long history...


Quote:

[quote]I'm not sure how this could be a meaningless excuse when Muslims themselves believe it. I wouldn't be writing this if I thought they were fibbing. The few Muslim crazies I have seen on TV couldn't possibly fib about something like this. For them, everything's war and death and kuffars and eternal paradise. It's a bizarre take on life. Such fundamentalist dogma is indeed a form of death cult. It has all the elements of a cult - the exclusivity, the obsession with enemies, the willingness to kill and die for a cause, the obsession with rules, the hierarchical social structure, the belief that only your beliefs are the true path and everybody else is living in sin. And none of the Muslims I've met believe it. Not one.

My question remains the same: what are muslims going to do about their sanctified doctrine which creates the fundamentalist islamic death cult?

Talk is cheap Karnal, if muslims and their apologists are fair dinkum, this is the principal issue they have to address.[/quote]

When will Christianity address it's history?   ::)

Brian Ross wrote on May 20^th, 2015 at 10:52pm:

Soren wrote on May 20th, 2015 at 9:59pm: Brian Ross wrote on May 20th, 2015 at 8:27pm: Soren wrote on May 19th, 2015 at 6:35pm: It's bollocks, on both accounts. So, what about their preservation of the science, the medicine, the philosophy of the Ancients which the West had conveniently forgotten or ignored, Soren?   You are aware, I take it of what contribution the taking of the city of Toledo and its massive libraries by the Spaniards from the Moors had on the kick starting of the Renaissance? Bollocks. It's just not true. It's the same caper as the 'Arabic' numbers. They are not Arabic at all but Indian. The renaissance was not kick started by the Muslims except by finally overrunning Byzantium and causing a massive influx of Greek refugees and books to the West. The 'preservation' of antiquity by the Muslims is a load of nonsense. Funny how all the historians believe otherwise, Soren...   ::)

Believe - exactly. It's a bit of PC slant.

Soren wrote on May 23^rd, 2015 at 9:31am:

Believe - exactly. It's a bit of PC slant.

Except it predates the modern craze of describing anything pro-Islamic as "PC", Soren.    ::)

Karnal wrote:
Quote:

There is no sanctified death cult doctrine, Moses. This is a figment of your - and the cultists’ - imagination. I would  have said the same about the Bible during the Inquisitions. If I was allowed to read it - and if I could get away with it. Big ifs, I know.

Like I have always said talk of islamic reform is meaningless drivel from muslims and the apologists.

You deny that the qur'an sanctifies and engenders islamic death cult ideology.

You and the muslims keep on lying, hiding from the issue, islamic atrocities will rule the day as always. (until the rest of the world gets so fed up, islam will pay the price)

Excuses, deliberate lies and false analogies, why?

Because islam will never be able to defend it'self with reason and logic, truth will be the downfall and defeat of islam

Brian Ross wrote on May 23^rd, 2015 at 12:57pm:

Soren wrote on May 23rd, 2015 at 9:31am: Believe - exactly. It's a bit of PC slant. Except it predates the modern craze of describing anything pro-Islamic as "PC", Soren.    ::)

It certainly does not.

The Muslims' role in saving and transmitting ancient books is wildly overstated. 

They were very selective in what they translated - no poems or plays, for example - and most of the translators were not Arabs themselves.
In any case, the selective open-mindedness was very short-lived.

The role of refugees from Islamic conquests in the Greek east is far more important and lasting.

Soren wrote on May 23^rd, 2015 at 2:26pm:

Brian Ross wrote on May 23rd, 2015 at 12:57pm: Soren wrote on May 23rd, 2015 at 9:31am: Believe - exactly. It's a bit of PC slant. Except it predates the modern craze of describing anything pro-Islamic as "PC", Soren.    ::) It certainly does not. The Muslims' role in saving and transmitting ancient books is wildly overstated.  They were very selective in what they translated - no poems or plays, for example - and most of the translators were not Arabs themselves. In any case, the selective open-mindedness was very short-lived. The role of refugees from Islamic conquests in the Greek east is far more important and lasting.

That’s right, old boy. There is no tradition of Persian or Moghul poetry and songs, it just doesn’t exist.

Always absolutely, innit.

Soren wrote on May 23^rd, 2015 at 2:26pm:

Brian Ross wrote on May 23rd, 2015 at 12:57pm: Soren wrote on May 23rd, 2015 at 9:31am: Believe - exactly. It's a bit of PC slant. Except it predates the modern craze of describing anything pro-Islamic as "PC", Soren.    ::) It certainly does not. The Muslims' role in saving and transmitting ancient books is wildly overstated.  They were very selective in what they translated - no poems or plays, for example - and most of the translators were not Arabs themselves. In any case, the selective open-mindedness was very short-lived. The role of refugees from Islamic conquests in the Greek east is far more important and lasting.

All just excuses, Soren and you know it.

The Arabs paid for and maintained the libraries.  The Spaniards took Toledo after a siege and looted the libraries.  Therefore, the Arabs provided most of the information that started the Renaissance.  QED.   ::)

Brian Ross wrote on May 23^rd, 2015 at 3:00pm:

Soren wrote on May 23rd, 2015 at 2:26pm: Brian Ross wrote on May 23rd, 2015 at 12:57pm: Soren wrote on May 23rd, 2015 at 9:31am: Believe - exactly. It's a bit of PC slant. Except it predates the modern craze of describing anything pro-Islamic as "PC", Soren.    ::) It certainly does not. The Muslims' role in saving and transmitting ancient books is wildly overstated.  They were very selective in what they translated - no poems or plays, for example - and most of the translators were not Arabs themselves. In any case, the selective open-mindedness was very short-lived. The role of refugees from Islamic conquests in the Greek east is far more important and lasting. All just excuses, Soren and you know it.

NO.  Facts.  You can't dismiss them.

Soren wrote on May 23^rd, 2015 at 8:56pm:

Brian Ross wrote on May 23rd, 2015 at 3:00pm: Soren wrote on May 23rd, 2015 at 2:26pm: Brian Ross wrote on May 23rd, 2015 at 12:57pm: Soren wrote on May 23rd, 2015 at 9:31am: Believe - exactly. It's a bit of PC slant. Except it predates the modern craze of describing anything pro-Islamic as "PC", Soren.    ::) It certainly does not. The Muslims' role in saving and transmitting ancient books is wildly overstated.  They were very selective in what they translated - no poems or plays, for example - and most of the translators were not Arabs themselves. In any case, the selective open-mindedness was very short-lived. The role of refugees from Islamic conquests in the Greek east is far more important and lasting. All just excuses, Soren and you know it. NO.  Facts.  You can't dismiss them.

Why not?  You dismiss the FACTS about Toledo, Soren.  Fair's fair.    ::)

Soren wrote on May 23^rd, 2015 at 8:56pm:

Brian Ross wrote on May 23rd, 2015 at 3:00pm: Soren wrote on May 23rd, 2015 at 2:26pm: Brian Ross wrote on May 23rd, 2015 at 12:57pm: Soren wrote on May 23rd, 2015 at 9:31am: Believe - exactly. It's a bit of PC slant. Except it predates the modern craze of describing anything pro-Islamic as "PC", Soren.    ::) It certainly does not. The Muslims' role in saving and transmitting ancient books is wildly overstated.  They were very selective in what they translated - no poems or plays, for example - and most of the translators were not Arabs themselves. In any case, the selective open-mindedness was very short-lived. The role of refugees from Islamic conquests in the Greek east is far more important and lasting. All just excuses, Soren and you know it. NO.  FAECES.  You can't dismiss them.

We’ll send someone in to administer an enema, dear boy.