...according to FD:


freediver wrote on Feb 3^rd, 2015 at 7:56pm:

In fact much of the Italian coastline was raided by Islamic slave traders, reducing it's population, so although they did not conquer it directly, they did control what happened there, in the Islamic way.

...


freediver wrote on Feb 4^th, 2015 at 7:45pm:

The truth is that the Muslims turned the Italian peninsula into a backwater by raiding it for slaves.

So there you go, the decline of Italy after the giddy economic heights of the Roman Empire was not due to successive invasion and pillaging by Germanic tribes, it was all down to the establishment of the Emirates of Sicily (which strangely enough boosted the prosperity of the cities under its control).

I know it will be asking way too much for FD to provide supporting evidence for his above claims (highlighted). Instead he'll offer some completely water-tight logic about Muhammad's deeds in 7th century Arabia or something else equally absurd and drop in phrases like "deferring to common sense" and "I think for myself" - and it will be an open-shut case.

fd is also terrified his FREEDOM OF SPEECH will be impaired if cartoons are ever stopped....

that Wile E Coyote and Donald the duck...will live forever if fd has his way. ::) ::)

I think Italy is in decline because Italian boys like to stay home with mumma and enjoy her cooking and don't want to get married and have to pay off a mortgage.

Bloody smart people

It wasn't just Germanic tribes Gandalf. The Empire's borders were breached in all directions - peoples from beyond the Danube in the south-east who had come out of central Asia, old adversaries of Rome from former Persian controlled areas etc.

But most of all it came from within. The legions had become almost entirely composed of draftees from the outer areas of the Empire and no longer had the traditional Roman spirit. The senatorial class which once officered the legions preferred to stay home at their villas in the country.

All civilisations have their day.

wrong bogarde - it was entirely down to muslim raiders. Thats how Italy became a 'backwater'. We know this because FD defers to common sense and can think for himself.

Watch this vid showing Muslim conquests versus the crusades.
It compares the Islamic raids and battles against the Roman Empire and Europe and the crusades. You can see just how much more aggressive and expansionist Islam has been until it was pushed back from Spain in 15th and then Vienna in the 17th century.

It also shows that the whole of the Levant, Turkey and North Africa are occupied territories.  This is one important reason why I do not sympathise with the Palestinian demand for Israel to withdraw and hand over territory to them.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_To-cV94Bo#t=67

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 12^th, 2015 at 3:51pm:

wrong bogarde - it was entirely down to muslim raiders. Thats how Italy became a 'backwater'. We know this because FD defers to common sense and can think for himself.

when did that happen?

Soren wrote on Feb 12^th, 2015 at 6:06pm:

Watch this vid showing Muslim conquests versus the crusades. It compares the Islamic raids and battles against the Roman Empire and Europe and the crusades. You can see just how much more aggressive and expansionist Islam has been until it was pushed back from Spain in 15th and then Vienna in the 17th century. It also shows that the whole of the Levant, Turkey and North Africa are occupied territories.  This is one important reason why I do not sympathise with the Palestinian demand for Israel to withdraw and hand over territory to them. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_To-cV94Bo#t=67

I like how he says 1 million slaves were taken out of Europe, Rome(Caesar) took 1 million out of Gaul alone! Killed another million. In Dacia(roughly modern Romania) under Trajan they may have done far more. I think rather than the crusades you should compare it to empire building. What was the human cost to other peoples of the British Empire?

U
John Smith wrote on Feb 12^th, 2015 at 6:27pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 12th, 2015 at 3:51pm: wrong bogarde - it was entirely down to muslim raiders. Thats how Italy became a 'backwater'. We know this because FD defers to common sense and can think for himself. when did that happen?

Yes, when did that happen, I assumed it was always a "backwater" ?

Resolute wrote on Feb 12^th, 2015 at 7:23pm:

U John Smith wrote on Feb 12th, 2015 at 6:27pm: polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 12th, 2015 at 3:51pm: wrong bogarde - it was entirely down to muslim raiders. Thats how Italy became a 'backwater'. We know this because FD defers to common sense and can think for himself. when did that happen? Yes, when did that happen, I assumed it was always a "backwater" ?

just another thing you can add to your list of ' things I got wrong'

  :D :D :D

Soren's map of muslim conquests is like apples & oranges though. (Sorry, I didn't watch the video . . .I haven't become accustomed to moving pictures yet)

It's like people conquering the Simpson Desert. Who cares. If the boat people were prepared to have the Simpson Desert I'd say, be my guest. After all, the Jews made a good job of the Palestine deserts.