Antarctica's Totten Glacier, twice the size of Victoria, 'melting from below'


Warm ocean water is melting one of the world's biggest glaciers from below, potentially leading to a rise in sea levels of six metres, Australian scientists have discovered.

Australian icebreaker Aurora Australis recently returned to Hobart from Antarctica, with a team of 23 scientists who had used new technology to collect the first water samples near the Totten Glacier.

At 538,000 square kilometres, Totten is twice the size of Victoria.

Steve Rintoul from the Australian Climate and Environment Cooperative Research Centre said the results indicated the glacier was being melted by the sea water beneath it.

"The measurements we collected provide the first evidence that warm water reaches the glacier and may be driving that melt of the glacier from below," he said.

The fact that it's changing is something new, we used to think that the glaciers in east Antarctic were very stable and unlikely to change.
Steve Rintoul, Antarctic Climate and Environment research centre
The glacier holds enough water to raise the sea level by six metres and scientists said it had been thinning over the past 15 years.

"We used to think the glaciers in east Antarctica were unlikely to be affected by the ocean because they were a long way away from the warm ocean waters," he said.

"The fact that it's changing is something new, we used to think that the glaciers in east Antarctic were very stable and unlikely to change."

But he said it was too soon to tell if the glacier was melting as a result of a changing global climate.

"What our observations can't tell us is how things have changed over time, because this is the first time anyone has made measurements in this area," he said.

"The measurements we've collected here are crucial for setting a benchmark that can be used to assess future change."

Aurora Australis went where no vessel had gone before

Tony Worby, also from the research centre, said the study was groundbreaking.

"No ship has ever been where the Aurora Australis went on this voyage, the ship managed to get front of the Totten Glacier," he said.

"Over the next year or two we'll process all of that data and get a really great sense of how warmer ocean water is affecting the glacier."

The results from this expedition will be used as the benchmark for next year's trip.


www.abc.net.au/news/2015-01-26/sea-water-melting-totten-glacier-in-antarctica-from-below/6047076

http://wattsupwiththat.files.wordpress.com/2013/12/josh_cagw_boat_stuck.jpg?w=720

---

While it would be devastating for a body of water so large to melt twice the size of Victoria in the context of the worlds oceans is not really all that big but I would suppose that if the water temp is high enough to do this how much more ice will be going along with it.

Rather puts the 17 years of stable temperature fanatics to the sword. We know that the heat has been going into the oceans instead of atmospheric temperatures for a while but the repercussions may well be worse than had it been going into the atmospheric temperatures.

This is terrific news.  this is another catastrophic prediction we can remember and use to point and laugh at the climate hysterics in years to come.

It probably never occurred to any of you that glaciers typically 'melt' at the bottom normally, although it isn't actually melting given the enormous pressure.

and all this is happening because of a 0.8degree rise that hasn't changed in 17 year?

Brrrr..... track suits down here tonight.. middle of summer....

longweekend58 wrote on Jan 26^th, 2015 at 5:43pm:

This is terrific news.  this is another catastrophic prediction we can remember and use to point and laugh at the climate hysterics in years to come. It probably never occurred to any of you that glaciers typically 'melt' at the bottom normally, although it isn't actually melting given the enormous pressure. and all this is happening because of a 0.8degree rise that hasn't changed in 17 year?

Based on the hottest el nino year on record 18 years ago. Non el nino years as hot !
As we all know, there have been plateauing before, followed by a steep climbing in temps.

Cherry picking season is over for the denialists.

Seems like the only thing the rotting carcass of the man made global warming scare is good for now is for cranks to use as bait to troll low wit internet forums with.  ::)

Mini Ice Age 2015-2035 | 30 Top Scientists Predict Global Cooling 2015-2050 (27)

Published on Dec 13, 2014

The Earth is about to begin a steep drop in global temperatures off its present global temperature plateau. This plateau has been caused by the absence of growth in global temperatures for 18 years, the start of global cooling in the atmosphere and the oceans, and the end of a short period of moderate solar heating from an unusually active secondary peak in solar cycle #24.
Average global atmospheric and oceanic temperatures will drop significantly beginning between 2015 and 2016 and will continue with only temporary reversals until they stabilize during a long cold temperature base lasting most of the 2030’s and 2040’s. The bottom of the next global cold climate caused by a “solar hibernation” (a pronounced reduction in warming energy coming from the Sun) is expected to be reached by the year 2031.
The predicted temperature decline will continue for the next fifteen years and will likely be the steepest ever recorded in human history, discounting past short-duration volcanic events.
Global average temperatures during the 2030’s will reach a level of at least 1.5° C lower. http://spaceandscience.net/sitebuilde...
Scientist List 9-15 http://spaceandscience.net/id66.html
Scientist List 1-8 http://spaceandscience.net/id4.html
Pic http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/weath...

The world's most viewed site on global warming and climate change www.wattsupwiththat.com
Robert Felix - Iceagenow.info
Dr John Casey - Cold Sun & Dark Winter
Dr Norman Page http://climatesense-norpag.blogspot.tw/
Rolf Witzsche Celebrating Near New Ice Age http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7RnQJ...
Dr. Abdusamatov http://iceagenow.info/2012/02/ice-age...
Svensmark: The Cloud Mystery https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ANMTP...
Snow Cover Charts http://climate.rutgers.edu/snowcover/...
http://www.globalincidentmap.com
http://iceagenow.info
http://www.ice-age-ahead-iaa.ca/
http://www.climatedepot.com
www.spaceweather.com



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ocCh5yDaqs

longweekend58 wrote on Jan 26^th, 2015 at 5:43pm:

This is terrific news.  this is another catastrophic prediction we can remember and use to point and laugh at the climate hysterics in years to come. It probably never occurred to any of you that glaciers typically 'melt' at the bottom normally, although it isn't actually melting given the enormous pressure. and all this is happening because of a 0.8degree rise that hasn't changed in 17 year?

I don't think that they are saying that there will be a 6 metre rise, just pointing out how much water is involved.

and all this is happening because of a 0.8degree rise that hasn't changed in 17 year

The temperature you are talking about here is a different measurement, the scientists have been saying that for a while now that a lot of the heat expected to go into atmospheric temperature has instead been going primarily into the oceans where the temperature has risen over the last 17 years. You probably ignored this information many times.

dear lord... how anyone could reprint this garbage and not feel humiliated is beyond me..  ::)

President Elect, The Mechanic wrote on Jan 26^th, 2015 at 8:06pm:

dear lord... how anyone could reprint this garbage and not feel humiliated is beyond me..  ::)

That's why it's cool down here at the Biog Toe of Australia's East...

https://au.news.yahoo.com/a/26101258/warm-ocean-melting-east-antarcticas-largest-glacier/

"Sydney (AFP) - The largest glacier in East Antarctica, containing ice equivalent to a six-metre (20-foot) rise in global sea levels, is melting due to warm ocean water, Australian scientists said on Monday.

The 120-kilometre (74.4 mile) long Totten Glacier, which is more than 30 kilometres wide, had been thought to be in an area untouched by warmer currents.

But a just-returned voyage to the frozen region found the waters around the glacier were warmer than expected and likely melting the ice from below."

gizmo_2655 wrote on Jan 26^th, 2015 at 4:26pm:

http://  watts - upwiththat.files.wordpress.com/2013/12/josh_cagw_boat_stuck.jpg

All HAIL the WEATHERMAN



https://jeffpelline.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/anthony-watts.png

For those who don't know of him, this great pundit for our time is a former US TV weatherman who in a divine flash of inspiration saw that the theory of Anthropogenic Global Warming was so much hot air and so set up the sceptical blog Watts Up With That (witty, heh?).

If you've been on a discussion board and had someone turn up and most some super new 'hot off the press' proof that AGW is a con, then the chances are that they lifted it from his blog

http://thesnufkin.blogspot.com.au/2010/02/climate-change-denier-proves-climate.html

buzzanddidj wrote on Jan 26^th, 2015 at 9:16pm:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Jan 26th, 2015 at 4:26pm: http://  watts - upwiththat.files.wordpress.com/2013/12/josh_cagw_boat_stuck.jpg All HAIL the WEATHERMAN https://jeffpelline.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/anthony-watts.png For those who don't know of him, this great pundit for our time is a former US TV weatherman who in a divine flash of inspiration saw that the theory of Anthropogenic Global Warming was so much hot air and so set up the sceptical blog Watts Up With That (witty, heh?). If you've been on a discussion board and had someone turn up and most some super new 'hot off the press' proof that AGW is a con, then the chances are that they lifted it from his blog http://thesnufkin.blogspot.com.au/2010/02/climate-change-denier-proves-climate.html

Yes Buzz, I know. But that's the site that the picture was hosted at.

Oh, and by the way, Flannery is mammologist and paleontologist. Will Steffen is a chemical engineer, Rajendra K. Pachauri is a mechanical engineer and Al Gore studied English and Government at Uni...

What was your point again??

Further evidence of the coming Ice Age:



'Historic' storm set to slam Northeast; airlines cancel flights

By Ralph Ellis, Michael Pearson and Ashley Fantz, CNN

Updated 2005 GMT (0405 HKT) January 26, 2015

(CNN)Go home. Stay there. Seriously.


Quote:

That's the message government officials across the Northeast offered residents Monday ahead of what could be a blizzard of historic proportions bearing down on the region. "What you're going to see in the (next) few hours is something that hits very hard and very fast and people cannot be caught off guard," New York Mayor Bill de Blasio said, warning that mass transit options will begin to dwindle as the night wears on. Private cars will be banned from using city streets as of 11 p.m, he said. The National Weather Service, which isn't prone to exaggeration, is using terms like "life-threatening" and "historic" to describe the weather system taking aim at the Northeast -- with the worst expected to hit Monday night into Tuesday. "This is going to be a lot of snow, no matter how you add it up, so we are going to be challenged," New Jersey Gov. Chris Christie said. In New York, Gov. Andrew Cuomo declared a state of emergency, called out the National Guard and said he may order everyone to stay put later tonight, as governors in Connecticut and Massachusetts had already done. In Philadelphia, Mayor Michael Nutter declared a snow emergency starting at 6 p.m. ET Monday. Cars left parked on snow emergency routes will be towed and owners ticketed, he said. The first big storm of the year may drop up to 3 feet of snow on Boston and New York before it ends Tuesday, with freezing rain and strong wind gusts possibly reaching 55 to 65 mph. Blizzard and winter storm warnings have been issued from Maryland through Maine and into Canada. Up to 58 million people could be put into the deep freeze. "I want everyone to understand that we are facing -- most likely -- one of the largest snowstorms in the history of this city," de Blasio said. That's saying something. In 2006, 26.9 inches of snow fell, topping the 25.8-inches of snow that fell in December 1947. While the worst of the weather isn't expected to hit until late Monday into Tuesday, according to CNN forecasters, thousands of flights already have been canceled for Monday and Tuesday, Flightaware.com said. Between 50% and 70% of flights have already been canceled Monday at New York area airports, with even more likely Tuesday, said Pat Foye, executive director of the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey. American Airlines said it would suspend operations in Philadelphia, Boston and New York late Monday afternoon. "We plan to resume operations as soon as it is safe to do so," airline spokeswoman Andrea Huguely said. United Airlines has already canceled all Tuesday flights at Newark, LaGuardia and JFK, as well as Boston and Philadelphia, company spokeswoman Mary Ryan said. The major U.S. airlines are offering fee-free rebooking of flights to and from the Northeast on Monday and Tuesday. Amtrak plans to operate a normal Monday schedule but may re-evaluate later in the day.

http://edition.cnn.com/2015/01/26/us/weather-storm/index.html

Dnarever wrote on Jan 26^th, 2015 at 8:03pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Jan 26th, 2015 at 5:43pm: This is terrific news.  this is another catastrophic prediction we can remember and use to point and laugh at the climate hysterics in years to come. It probably never occurred to any of you that glaciers typically 'melt' at the bottom normally, although it isn't actually melting given the enormous pressure. and all this is happening because of a 0.8degree rise that hasn't changed in 17 year? I don't think that they are saying that there will be a 6 metre rise, just pointing out how much water is involved. and all this is happening because of a 0.8degree rise that hasn't changed in 17 year The temperature you are talking about here is a different measurement, the scientists have been saying that for a while now that a lot of the heat expected to go into atmospheric temperature has instead been going primarily into the oceans where the temperature has risen over the last 17 years. You probably ignored this information many times.

Ive heard that argument multiple times and laugh every time I hear it.  For some reason that conveniently has no explanation, heating managed to warm the surface and generate a lot of hysteria.  NOW however, the heat has magically decided to go into the sea or the upper atmosphere or somewhere else we cannot detect nor quantify. Apparently the laws of thermodynamics are merely suggestions and heat can go where 'it decides'.

and if you think the temperature of the oceans has risen then ask them by how much and you will NOT get an answer.  They will show you graphs with JOULES and not degrees because to 9 decimal places, the temperature hasn't changed.

buzzanddidj wrote on Jan 26^th, 2015 at 9:16pm:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Jan 26th, 2015 at 4:26pm: http://  watts - upwiththat.files.wordpress.com/2013/12/josh_cagw_boat_stuck.jpg All HAIL the WEATHERMAN https://jeffpelline.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/anthony-watts.png For those who don't know of him, this great pundit for our time is a former US TV weatherman who in a divine flash of inspiration saw that the theory of Anthropogenic Global Warming was so much hot air and so set up the sceptical blog Watts Up With That (witty, heh?). If you've been on a discussion board and had someone turn up and most some super new 'hot off the press' proof that AGW is a con, then the chances are that they lifted it from his blog http://thesnufkin.blogspot.com.au/2010/02/climate-change-denier-proves-climate.html

And if he was the only person writing on there or even the majority, you'd have a point.  But he isn't. There are hundreds of actual scientist contributing.  And might I point out that the largest mouth - Al Gore - has zero qualifications of any kind while the head of the IPCC is a train driver.

At this point, Watts' climate qualifications trumps both of them.

Great news, looking forward to my ocean front views

aquascoot wrote on Jan 27^th, 2015 at 9:12am:

Great news, looking forward to my ocean front views

;) ;)  Bloody great catching KING GEORGE WHITING FROM THE FRONT VERANDA   

Look on the bright side - I won't have to put salt in my pool anymore

President Elect, The Mechanic wrote on Jan 26^th, 2015 at 8:06pm:

dear lord... how anyone could reprint this garbage and not feel humiliated is beyond me..  ::)

And the alternative is to listen to how full your water tank is and how happy your dog is about it. That is something that should be submitted to the IPCC :D LOL

Maybe its the land sinking greens_win............

I think it's already started . ...pissing down here.
Could be the Almighty has finally had enough. Best start looking for people called Noah.

longweekend58 wrote on Jan 26^th, 2015 at 5:43pm:

This is terrific news.  this is another catastrophic prediction we can remember and use to point and laugh at the climate hysterics in years to come. It probably never occurred to any of you that glaciers typically 'melt' at the bottom normally, although it isn't actually melting given the enormous pressure. and all this is happening because of a 0.8degree rise that hasn't changed in 17 year?

Temperature is an indicator of the heat content of a system!

It's all heat engines!!

The difficult part is defining the system boundary which is something you never do and is why after all these years you still have no credibility on this forum  :o  ;) ;)

.. no wonder people like you voted for copper internet in the clever country

longweekend58 wrote on Jan 27^th, 2015 at 8:14am:

Dnarever wrote on Jan 26th, 2015 at 8:03pm: longweekend58 wrote on Jan 26th, 2015 at 5:43pm: This is terrific news.  this is another catastrophic prediction we can remember and use to point and laugh at the climate hysterics in years to come. It probably never occurred to any of you that glaciers typically 'melt' at the bottom normally, although it isn't actually melting given the enormous pressure. and all this is happening because of a 0.8degree rise that hasn't changed in 17 year? I don't think that they are saying that there will be a 6 metre rise, just pointing out how much water is involved. and all this is happening because of a 0.8degree rise that hasn't changed in 17 year The temperature you are talking about here is a different measurement, the scientists have been saying that for a while now that a lot of the heat expected to go into atmospheric temperature has instead been going primarily into the oceans where the temperature has risen over the last 17 years. You probably ignored this information many times. Ive heard that argument multiple times and laugh every time I hear it.  For some reason that conveniently has no explanation, heating managed to warm the surface and generate a lot of hysteria.  NOW however, the heat has magically decided to go into the sea or the upper atmosphere or somewhere else we cannot detect nor quantify. Apparently the laws of thermodynamics are merely suggestions and heat can go where 'it decides'. and if you think the temperature of the oceans has risen then ask them by how much and you will NOT get an answer.  They will show you graphs with JOULES and not degrees because to 9 decimal places, the temperature hasn't changed.

Hot air doesn't rise: cool air sinks!

::)

longweekend58 wrote on Jan 27^th, 2015 at 8:14am:

Dnarever wrote on Jan 26th, 2015 at 8:03pm: longweekend58 wrote on Jan 26th, 2015 at 5:43pm: This is terrific news.  this is another catastrophic prediction we can remember and use to point and laugh at the climate hysterics in years to come. It probably never occurred to any of you that glaciers typically 'melt' at the bottom normally, although it isn't actually melting given the enormous pressure. and all this is happening because of a 0.8degree rise that hasn't changed in 17 year? I don't think that they are saying that there will be a 6 metre rise, just pointing out how much water is involved. and all this is happening because of a 0.8degree rise that hasn't changed in 17 year The temperature you are talking about here is a different measurement, the scientists have been saying that for a while now that a lot of the heat expected to go into atmospheric temperature has instead been going primarily into the oceans where the temperature has risen over the last 17 years. You probably ignored this information many times. Ive heard that argument multiple times and laugh every time I hear it.  For some reason that conveniently has no explanation, heating managed to warm the surface and generate a lot of hysteria.  NOW however, the heat has magically decided to go into the sea or the upper atmosphere or somewhere else we cannot detect nor quantify. Apparently the laws of thermodynamics are merely suggestions and heat can go where 'it decides'. and if you think the temperature of the oceans has risen then ask them by how much and you will NOT get an answer.  They will show you graphs with JOULES and not degrees because to 9 decimal places, the temperature hasn't changed.

Is longy talking about the laws of thermodynamics  ::) ::)  ::)

longweekend58 wrote on Jan 27^th, 2015 at 8:14am:

Dnarever wrote on Jan 26th, 2015 at 8:03pm: longweekend58 wrote on Jan 26th, 2015 at 5:43pm: This is terrific news.  this is another catastrophic prediction we can remember and use to point and laugh at the climate hysterics in years to come. It probably never occurred to any of you that glaciers typically 'melt' at the bottom normally, although it isn't actually melting given the enormous pressure. and all this is happening because of a 0.8degree rise that hasn't changed in 17 year? I don't think that they are saying that there will be a 6 metre rise, just pointing out how much water is involved. and all this is happening because of a 0.8degree rise that hasn't changed in 17 year The temperature you are talking about here is a different measurement, the scientists have been saying that for a while now that a lot of the heat expected to go into atmospheric temperature has instead been going primarily into the oceans where the temperature has risen over the last 17 years. You probably ignored this information many times. Ive heard that argument multiple times and laugh every time I hear it.  For some reason that conveniently has no explanation, heating managed to warm the surface and generate a lot of hysteria.  NOW however, the heat has magically decided to go into the sea or the upper atmosphere or somewhere else we cannot detect nor quantify. Apparently the laws of thermodynamics are merely suggestions and heat can go where 'it decides'. and if you think the temperature of the oceans has risen then ask them by how much and you will NOT get an answer.  They will show you graphs with JOULES and not degrees because to 9 decimal places, the temperature hasn't changed.

Temperature is an indicator  ::) ::) fmd this guy is a peanut  ;D ;D

innocentbystander. wrote on Jan 26^th, 2015 at 7:08pm:

Seems like the only thing the rotting carcass of the man made global warming scare is good for now is for cranks to use as bait to troll low wit internet forums with.  ::)

innocent bystander voted for copper internet and now he feels awful  ;D ;D

Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM wrote on Jan 26^th, 2015 at 5:54pm:

Brrrr..... track suits down here tonight.. middle of summer....

Perth didn't get that hot but Feb will produce I'm sure... it always gets mild then screaming hot!

(Just thought I'd post this as a reminder of some relevant science...)

I'm going to go over your question bit by bit. Explain some of the language of your question, and then analyze the final answer. My explanations assume prior knowledge of the atomic reality of gases but little else.

First off "heat rises" is a term that should be avoided in a physics discussion. The term "heat" is referring to the transfer of thermal energy from one place to another. It is not a state-quantity. For instance, state quantities are things that are qualities of the matter it self. For instance mass is a state quantity. So is charge. These are the same regardless of other place and time. While "heat" is a description of change, not a description of state. We say a pan on the stove heated up. Or better still a flow of heat from the flame into the pan caused the pan to have a higher temperature. If we said the pan on the stove has heat, that is incorrect, the pan on the stove has thermal energy (a mesure of the mass and temperature of the object), and a temperature.

Reminder: temperature is a mesure of the average kinetic energy of a substance.

Rephrase: Does hot (greater temperature) air rise? Or is it displaced by cold (lower temperature) air?

First: Why does anything fall and rise in a gravitational field? Well it must have a force pushing it up. To change its potential energy (U=mg) a force must act on it.

What is the force that causes a fluid or gas to rise and fall? In all cases it can be described as a pressure.

Pressure is always a relative thing, this is because it isn't pressure that causes things to rise and fall it is a pressure difference or gradient. So what is important is the net pressure, or pressure difference.

First of all this is an important point. If the pressure in a volume is all the same: nothing changes. No air moves (besides individual particles that will move due to brownian motion).

So how can I create a pressure difference to cause one bit of air to rise? To be pushed up?

1) The easiest way is to control how packed the air is, its density. A greater packed group of molecules will have more atoms in a smaller space so it if each molecule is moving at the same speed more collisions occur between the edge of its volume (these changes in momentum cause a force) and it will exert more force: greater pressure.

2) But how do we mesure how fast the particles are going in volume of something? Because if the atoms move faster then there will be greater changes in momentum and more force. Temperature is the mesure of this, the average kinetic energy describes in essence how fast the particles are going.

What does 1) and 2) tell us? Well pressure is controlled by the speed of the particles, and how many of them are in the space. In thermodynamics the equation PV=nRT is used. R is a constant. n is the number of mol (a measure of the number of particles). This says the pressure and volume (V) are related to temperature (speed) and the amount (n).

This says that a hotter volume of the same substance will need to expand to maintain its outward pressure. A colder thing will contract. This is the process of hotter and colder liquids and gases becoming less dense or more dense.

FINAL (Q and A): A: Does hotter air rise? B: Or does cold air displace the hot air causing it to rise?

Well let's test the fist one, hotter implies that it is hotter then something. So if it is hotter then the air around it, the air will expand, the pressure will decrease (since PV is constant) and high pressure, lower density air will push it up: displacing it. Here we see the issue with the question: both A and B are true. If B were not, and cold air wasn't available then there would be no difference in densities, no difference in pressures, and nothing would change. You can not have A without B, and B without A, and mostly this is because a pressure gradient is necessary for changes to occur.

Could you have two gases where the hotter of the two was on the bottom? Yes. A light gas like helium, less dense because its molecules hate each other (personified; sorry), will float all the way out of the earth's atmosphere, leaving hot desert air below.
source: http://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/6329/does-hot-air-really-rise

aussie100percent wrote on Jan 27^th, 2015 at 9:42am:

aquascoot wrote on Jan 27th, 2015 at 9:12am: Great news, looking forward to my ocean front views ;) ;)  Bloody great catching KING GEORGE WHITING FROM THE FRONT VERANDA

Nope sorry, the cults got that one covered too, all sea life will be destroyed by acidification so no fish for you.  :) 

That's one way to get cars off the road.

Happy Lucky wrote on Jan 27^th, 2015 at 3:40pm:

That's one way to get cars off the road.

And trade them in on boats and minisubs..