Post by Bam on Dec 22nd, 2014 at 5:47pm
Swagman wrote on Dec 22nd, 2014 at 11:27am:
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Trickle Down Is a Myth, What We Are Seeing Is an Upward Torrent
| Australian Politics Forum | |
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http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl
General Discussion >> Federal Politics >> Prepare to be educated righties http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1419083322 Message started by SupositoryofWisdom on Dec 20th, 2014 at 11:48pm |
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Title: Prepare to be educated righties Post by SupositoryofWisdom on Dec 20th, 2014 at 11:48pm
https://www.thesaturdaypaper.com.au/news/politics/2014/12/20/how-john-howards-tax-cuts-undid-his-protege-tony-abbott/14189940001389#.VJV7k4AA0
Hewson smashes what you think you know to pieces . |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by SupositoryofWisdom on Dec 21st, 2014 at 9:12am
Don't the righties have anything to say on this story , let me guess Hewson couldn't calculate gst on a cake. Of course you're much smarter than Hewson righties :D
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by Greens_Win on Dec 21st, 2014 at 9:20am
It can't be howard's fault, it has to be labor's fault.
Aye righties. |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by Honky on Dec 21st, 2014 at 9:28am
Is there a particular quote or topic from the article you wanted to discuss?
Just sh|tting a link onto the screen along with a vague challenge doesn't exactly invite discussion. |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by stryker on Dec 21st, 2014 at 9:31am ... wrote on Dec 21st, 2014 at 9:28am:
little wisdom brain believes we should be educated from an OPINION PIECE, ;D ;D ;D Another leftie lunatic |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by SupositoryofWisdom on Dec 21st, 2014 at 9:54am stryder wrote on Dec 21st, 2014 at 9:31am:
You shouldn't have any problems debunking it then , oh wait, you can't :D |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by stryker on Dec 21st, 2014 at 9:55am Its time wrote on Dec 21st, 2014 at 9:54am:
Its an opinion piece ?? not truth Whats there to debunk, little wisdom ????? |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by adelcrow on Dec 21st, 2014 at 10:18am
Hey..we all know that Howard was pretty stupid with his welfare hand outs and tax cuts based on a short term influx of cash from the once in a lifetime Chinese boom.
Howard never thought past each election cycle and now we are all paying for it |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by St George of the Puissant HLT on Dec 21st, 2014 at 10:27am
Yes, it isn’t opinion but fact that Howard & Costello created a large structural Budget deficit that since the GFC turned into large cash deficits. The Costello (and the Rudd) tax cuts need to be wound back some and Howard’s irresponsible spending completely removed.
The fact that the household sector has high debt means deficits are the right Budget setting right now. The fact that Dollar $weety did’t get that high paying job he expected to get underlines the truth of the above. |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by Swagman on Dec 21st, 2014 at 2:55pm adelcrow wrote on Dec 21st, 2014 at 10:18am:
Yeah yeah, but Labor had 6 years to reverse the Coalition's tax cuts. ::) ::) Instead Labor just spent as if they had reversed them. ;D Yes. we are paying for that (those that pay net tax that is) :( |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by John Smith on Dec 21st, 2014 at 3:00pm
That effort began more than a decade ago when John Howard and Hockey’s predecessor, Peter Costello, ran the most profligate government in Australian history
John Hewson, former Liberal leader, economist and now professor with the Crawford School of Public Policy at the Australian National University, underlines the point: “The tax cuts Howard and Costello gave are now costing [the budget] about $30 billion a year, and the deficit’s $40 billion.” Without those cuts and the $9 billion Hockey gave – unasked for and against the will of treasury – to the Reserve Bank, says Hewson, “the deficit problem wouldn’t exist And that’s without including some $40 billion in tax concessions for superannuation, which accrue overwhelmingly to the wealthiest 20 per cent of taxpayers. The libs are economic vandals |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by Swagman on Dec 21st, 2014 at 3:46pm John Smith wrote on Dec 21st, 2014 at 3:00pm:
The only ones that pay net tax anyway.... |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by John Smith on Dec 21st, 2014 at 4:43pm Swagman wrote on Dec 21st, 2014 at 3:46pm:
so we spend more money than our whole pension system? didn't we have a budget emergency? |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by longweekend58 on Dec 21st, 2014 at 5:10pm
It is just another wannabe PM lamenting how everything would have been better if HE had been in charge. Howards tax cuts weren't even actual cuts but merely manually keeping tax indexation.
And is there anyone who really believes that if there were another $30Bpa available, that Rudd and Gillard wouldn't have spent that well before now? and if the argument were true then it does not explain Rudd giving further tax cuts and neither labor buffoon removing them. |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by longweekend58 on Dec 21st, 2014 at 5:12pm John Smith wrote on Dec 21st, 2014 at 4:43pm:
Maybe the question you should be asking is why NO ONE from either party is suggesting removing this concession. Perhaps they know something you don't? for starters, if you remove the concession there is absolutely ZERO reason to put money into super, none at all. so what happens come retirement time??? NOT ENOUGH MONEY. |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by Swagman on Dec 21st, 2014 at 5:27pm Its time wrote on Dec 20th, 2014 at 11:48pm:
...ironic to see a raving lefty fruitloop using a 'righty' to educate the masses... Couldn't find a credible Pinko one I suppose? ;D |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by Karnal on Dec 21st, 2014 at 5:36pm longweekend58 wrote on Dec 21st, 2014 at 5:10pm:
How can the article not be true? The Howard tax cuts and super tax concessions to the rich were unprecedented. The IMF described Howard government as the most "profligate" government in Australia’s history. Most of its spending went to the top 10% of earners. It gave the mining boom away, and we now have nothing to show for it. Without those tax cuts, we’d be 30 billion richer a year. The current deficit is 40 billion. This article describes the legacy bequeathed to Abbott. And it’s spot-on. |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by John Smith on Dec 21st, 2014 at 5:38pm longweekend58 wrote on Dec 21st, 2014 at 5:10pm:
As opposed to the wannabe groupie who keeps making excuses for the disaster that he voted for longweekend58 wrote on Dec 21st, 2014 at 5:10pm:
your tarrot card reader tell you that? longweekend58 wrote on Dec 21st, 2014 at 5:10pm:
Rudds tax cuts were compensation for other measures he was introducing ... as for neither removing them, the libs blocked every savings measure labor Gillard tried to bring in .. Abbott on the other hand has a majority parliment ... he should have no trouble making changes ;D ;D ;D ;D |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by John Smith on Dec 21st, 2014 at 5:40pm longweekend58 wrote on Dec 21st, 2014 at 5:12pm:
what happens at retirement time is the same thing that happens now, to those less well off govts not there to prop up your lifestyle .. it's there to provide the basics |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by John Smith on Dec 21st, 2014 at 5:41pm Swagman wrote on Dec 21st, 2014 at 5:27pm:
plenty ... but quoting a leftie just brings out the usual trash responses from the retards ... he was hoping you might actually listen when one of your own |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by Swagman on Dec 21st, 2014 at 5:50pm John Smith wrote on Dec 21st, 2014 at 5:41pm:
I was a supporter of Dr John's 15% GST. ...and speaking of 'retards' it was you Lefties that rejected it. 20 years with 50% more GST revenue foregone tends to blunt the mythical structural deficit theory |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by John Smith on Dec 21st, 2014 at 6:10pm Swagman wrote on Dec 21st, 2014 at 5:50pm:
GST? I don't believe that was mention in the OP ... perhaps you'd like to comment on the already numerable things the libs got wrong ... afterall, there is no need to add more to the list just yet. |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by Swagman on Dec 21st, 2014 at 7:31pm John Smith wrote on Dec 21st, 2014 at 6:10pm:
....yes it was ignored in the linked article too which just shows it isn't worth a piece of piss ;D |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by SupositoryofWisdom on Dec 21st, 2014 at 8:04pm Swagman wrote on Dec 21st, 2014 at 5:27pm:
What's wrong swag? Clutching at straws attacking the poster don't you think? Once again Hewson tells it exactly as it is. What don't you deflect like you always do and refer to yourself as Australia's only net taxpayer , you got nothing :D |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by longweekend58 on Dec 22nd, 2014 at 6:31am Melanias purse wrote on Dec 21st, 2014 at 5:36pm:
bequeathed to Abbott from Rudd/Gillard or did you miss 6 intervening years? and has it ever occurred to you that the best solution to any deficit, personal or government is to CUT SPENDING? it appears not. |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by longweekend58 on Dec 22nd, 2014 at 6:33am Melanias purse wrote on Dec 21st, 2014 at 5:36pm:
WE would be $30B richer???? the GOVT would be $30B richer and WE (ie you and me) would be $30B poorer. or did you miss this concept??? |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by longweekend58 on Dec 22nd, 2014 at 6:33am Melanias purse wrote on Dec 21st, 2014 at 5:36pm:
unprecedented and profligate are such evocative terms which when taken out of context give the completely wrong answer. To make my point I refer you to a conversation I had to a woman who won $13M in powerball. her spending was both unprecedented and profligate by the standards of most people and her former experience. But she was very responsible and still had most of it. Howard's boom was also unprecedented and gave him opportunities to do what no one else had done. "profligate' is one of those terms sometimes used by people who are envious of those with much. Howards tax cuts were far from unprecedented. The way soe of you carry on you would think there has never been tax cuts before or since even tho Fraser, hawke, Keating, Rudd and Gillard did exactly that. as for the 'nothing to show for it' claim it sometimes beggars the understanding as to how some people can be so dense. Howard paid off the national debt of $96B. He put $45B in the bank for a rainy day. He put $80B into a future fund as well as built infrastructure. $230BILLION. and what did rudd and Gillard do? SPENT EVERY CENT AND THEN SOME. and what do we have to show for it? school halls, wanted or not, useful or not. nothing else. |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by Karnal on Dec 22nd, 2014 at 8:10am longweekend58 wrote on Dec 22nd, 2014 at 6:33am:
Longy, the "futures fund" is another term for federal employees’ superannuation. The Howard government did not spend on infrastructure. 45 billion after 11 years in government and two of the biggest mining booms in history is, yes, nothing to show for it. The Howard government has left Abbott with an age of entitlement, tax cuts for the rich, and the idea of a permanent mining boom. Alas, the party’s over. |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by Karnal on Dec 22nd, 2014 at 8:23am longweekend58 wrote on Dec 22nd, 2014 at 6:33am:
Longy, the "futures fund" is another term for federal employees’ superannuation. The Howard government did not spend on infrastructure. 45 billion after 11 years in government and two of the biggest mining booms in history is, yes, nothing to show for it. The Howard government has left Abbott with an age of entitlement, tax cuts for the rich, and the idea of a permanent mining boom. Alas, the party’s over. Crocodile has given you an excellent analysis of deficits and public and private spending. Now in government, Hockey’s message is changing from making cuts and delivering surpluses to "buffering the economy". And he has no hope of reaching surplus in his first term, which was again a key election promise. The current government’s chickens are home to roost. It has gone back on every principle it stated in opposition. It will now abandon its key economic plan and sit with declining revenues and high spending. If it had the balls it says it has, the Abbott government would raise income tax and abandon the super tax concessiins. There’s 30 billion a year. Instead, it would prefer to cut welfare, "reform" higher education and charge for GP visits. All these changes, according to the government, are revenue neutral. The GP tax goes into medical research. Uni funding is all about "flexibility". Pensioners "won’t lose a cent". Thank heavens the grown-ups are back in charge. |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by longweekend58 on Dec 22nd, 2014 at 8:24am Melanias purse wrote on Dec 22nd, 2014 at 8:10am:
except it was tax cuts for EVERYONE and the age of entitlement wasn't exactly reigned in by Rudd/Gillard who literally splashed hundreds of billions of dollars around for which we have nothing to show for it. |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by Swagman on Dec 22nd, 2014 at 8:31am John Smith wrote on Dec 21st, 2014 at 5:40pm:
Well congrats Smithy, welcome to my way of thinking.....looks like all these informative and educational posts of mine have finally cracked that indoctrinated brain of yours and shown you the light of reality..... :D |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by Swagman on Dec 22nd, 2014 at 9:30am Its time wrote on Dec 21st, 2014 at 8:04pm:
That's banter not abuse SOW. Hewson didn't write your linked article SOW.... he's just been selectively quoted by the author... ::) The structural deficit argument is not a bad one from the Lefty point of view except that Labor did not have the balls to act upon it and reverse the tax cuts. Rudd had the numbers to do exactly that and failed. Also I'd argue that Dr John if given the chance would also comment that his GST package could have delivered over 50% more GST revenue over the last 20 years (last year alone that was around $25 Billion) Given that tax cuts actually induce spending, and GST taxes spending Howard's tax cuts. The big end of town spends a shite load more than the little end and arguably the GST take would have been much larger minimising any structural impact. Also Dr John would also say that the 'regressive tax boogieman' argument for the GST is C R A P. Because the bottom end of town are the beneficiaries of taxation. The little end of town use the public services and collect the hand outs that tax revenues from whatever source produce. |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by Bam on Dec 22nd, 2014 at 9:54am Swagman wrote on Dec 22nd, 2014 at 9:30am:
Personal attacks against other posters is abuse and your pretending it's something else doesn't change that. Best not to do it, just in case. Quote:
A silly argument. Abbott and Hockey aren't doing any better. Quote:
Link, please. |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by Dnarever on Dec 22nd, 2014 at 10:02am longweekend58 wrote on Dec 22nd, 2014 at 6:33am:
I earn fairly good money and am willing to accept that you probably do OK as well however I am nowhere near the top 20% where 80% of this bonus went so no you miss the mark probably nobody here would be much worse off and we would likely all benefit more from a balanced budget. Now lets have a look at what it does mean. We are in the position we are because the past Liberal government gave most of their unexpected income to wealthy people and we now see the following Liberal government wanting to recover from this unaffordable splurge by taking money off of the working class and poor in the community. |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by Dnarever on Dec 22nd, 2014 at 10:08am Swagman wrote on Dec 22nd, 2014 at 9:30am:
Gillard never had a majority government and even Rudd had no control over the senate, he would have required the Liberals to support any such legislation which is at best unlikely. In the period that Rudd was the PM they were still playing with the idea that the boom would return and income levels would recover to the Howard years level so it wasn't clear that it was absolutely required at that time. |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by Karnal on Dec 22nd, 2014 at 10:49am longweekend58 wrote on Dec 22nd, 2014 at 8:24am:
The majority of those tax cuts went to the top 10% of income earners, along with the super concessions. The rest of the handouts were in the form of baby bonuses and Family Tax benefits. If Labor handed out $7000 to every parent who had a child, you'd be threatening another terrorist attack. The Abbott government is simply continuing this tradition. Their Paid Parental Leave scheme and Direct Action policies are further handouts. PPL's gone, and I doubt we'll see much put into Direct Action. The Libs' theories on welfare and spending do not match reality. Tax cuts to the rich do much more damage to a government and an economy than welfare cuts. The US deficit in the trillions tells this story well - the result of the Bush tax cuts and the Iraq war. Welfare cuts, on the other hand, cost an economy big time. Cuts to health and education effect employment big time. Taxing someone on $200,000 a year an extra 10% does bugger all - all this does is take less out of savings. Cutting low incomes, welfare, health and education takes money out of spending. As Australia slides into recession, Joe Hockey is telling people to spend spend spend. However, the government is sending mixed messages by making cuts. The schizophrenic nature of the government's economic "plan" is not good for investors OR consumer confidence. Right now, it's clear that the government does not have a plan. Last year, the plan was to reach surplus in the first term. Now, Hockey has acknowledged that this would do more harm than good to the economy - if it were even possible. And all this from a "no nonsense, no surprises" government. "Steady, predictable, reliable, the grown-ups back in charge". Ever get the feeling you've been cheated? |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by longweekend58 on Dec 22nd, 2014 at 10:57am Dnarever wrote on Dec 22nd, 2014 at 10:02am:
do you think you could come up with any ideas or opinions that aren't firmly rooted in class-warfare? income tax cuts were the same percentage for everyone. that is the very essence of equality. unless of course you believe that taxation exists in part to punish the high earners - who already pay ten times as much tax as you do now. |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by John Smith on Dec 22nd, 2014 at 11:00am Swagman wrote on Dec 21st, 2014 at 7:31pm:
because the article was about what Howard did, not about what he didn't do |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by John Smith on Dec 22nd, 2014 at 11:05am Swagman wrote on Dec 22nd, 2014 at 8:31am:
your way of thinking? no one would ever have guessed that based on your posts ... you've always wanted to deny people the basics and support the lifestyles of those that pay 'net tax' haven't you ? :D :D :D :D |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by Karnal on Dec 22nd, 2014 at 11:07am longweekend58 wrote on Dec 22nd, 2014 at 10:57am:
Not when you add tax concessions for super contributions, which only the wealthy put extra money into. The impact of this policy took billions out of revenue. This policy makes some sense when you're trying to increase investment in other sectors of an economy during a mining boom, but it costs a huge amount in revenue. Continuing the policy today helps no one but the rich. It allows them to invest their income in super and avoid paying income tax, which the poor HAVE to pay. |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by longweekend58 on Dec 22nd, 2014 at 11:23am Melanias purse wrote on Dec 22nd, 2014 at 10:49am:
The majority of those tax cuts went to the top 10% of income earners, along with the super concessions. The rest of the handouts were in the form of baby bonuses and Family Tax benefits. Complete nonsense. every taxpayer got approximately the same percentage in tax cuts - the very epitome of equality. But I guess your maths is so bad that you seem unable to comprehend how a 5% reduction for one person paying $100Kpa in tax is more that 5% on $500pa in tax. INcome tax does not exist to punish people for the audacity of earning more than the poor. they already pay 10-100 times as much as the poor pay. and you want more? If Labor handed out $7000 to every parent who had a child, you'd be threatening another terrorist attack. Id disapprove of anyone who did it but you would be wanting it cut off from anyone earning about.... what you earn plus $20K The Abbott government is simply continuing this tradition. Their Paid Parental Leave scheme and Direct Action policies are further handouts. PPL's gone, and I doubt we'll see much put into Direct Action. The Libs' theories on welfare and spending do not match reality. Tax cuts to the rich do much more damage to a government and an economy than welfare cuts. The US deficit in the trillions tells this story well - the result of the Bush tax cuts and the Iraq war. You are hopelessly uninformed. if you think the US deficit is the result of Bush tax cuts and the Iraq war then you are a boofhead. The US has been in debt for DECADES. your claim of tax cuts tot he rich causing damage is contrary to every economic theory and every economic practice. Thank God idiots like you don't define economic policy. You are no different to Mugabe and look what he did to that economy. Welfare cuts, on the other hand, cost an economy big time. Cuts to health and education effect employment big time. Taxing someone on $200,000 a year an extra 10% does bugger all - all this does is take less out of savings. welfare cuts COST and economy? what are you? the ghost of SOB back again? you gobble up the lefty version of economic management which has given us such stunning examples as Venuzuela, CUba and Russia. welfare is NOT an economic growth policy. That exists only in the minds of fools and children. Welfare is a DRAG on an economy and while I have no problem paying for it and thing we should I will not be told that it is an economic benefit. Cutting low incomes, welfare, health and education takes money out of spending. As Australia slides into recession, Joe Hockey is telling people to spend spend spend. However, the government is sending mixed messages by making cuts. but you support increased taxation! do you have an actual policy position that is consistent? The schizophrenic nature of the government's economic "plan" is not good for investors OR consumer confidence. Right now, it's clear that the government does not have a plan. Last year, the plan was to reach surplus in the first term. Now, Hockey has acknowledged that this would do more harm than good to the economy - if it were even possible. And all this from a "no nonsense, no surprises" government. "Steady, predictable, reliable, the grown-ups back in charge". Perhaps if the govt were actually able to govern there might be a better outcome. But I suspect you don't really support the democratic principle of electing governments to govern unless they agree with you. tell me Im wrong. |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by John Smith on Dec 22nd, 2014 at 11:26am Swagman wrote on Dec 22nd, 2014 at 9:30am:
Rudd never had the numbers or his ETS would have passed ... besides, he was only in there for a little over a year before he was removed .. in that time he had to deal with the GFC ... once gillard took over things got worse and they had even less control. Abbott voted against every single savings measure they tried to introduce. :D :D :D |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by Swagman on Dec 22nd, 2014 at 11:27am Melanias purse wrote on Dec 22nd, 2014 at 10:49am:
That's funny because they also pay the majority of the tax......do you recognise a correlation there? ::) Melanias purse wrote on Dec 22nd, 2014 at 10:49am:
Tell that to the Opposition in the unrepresentative Senate. Melanias purse wrote on Dec 22nd, 2014 at 10:49am:
That's a catch 22. Like it or not the people that 'spend the most' are those that 'earn' the disposable incomes to do so. Funny enough these are the also the people that pay the majority of tax. So common sense would say that tax cuts or tax hikes to this demographic will therefore have have the most economic impact. If it wants to increase the money supply the Govt will cut taxes if you want to squeeze it the Govt will increase taxes. That is why we should have a broader tax system (increased GST) and lower marginal tax rates. If the Govt wants to stimulate the economic it has to provide incentive to the demographic that will make the most impact which is the demographic that pays the majority of tax. PS...and the downtrodden benefit from the trickle down :D |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by John Smith on Dec 22nd, 2014 at 11:30am
i think longies about to pop a hernia ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by longweekend58 on Dec 22nd, 2014 at 11:34am John Smith wrote on Dec 22nd, 2014 at 11:26am:
you must have gone to the adelcrow school of counting years. Rudd became PM in nov 2007 and was removed in march 2010. that is a LOT more than a year. |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by longweekend58 on Dec 22nd, 2014 at 11:36am Swagman wrote on Dec 22nd, 2014 at 11:27am:
they never seem to get that correlation. It could be because - as previously demonstrated - their grasp of even basic mathematics is deeply flawed. |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by John Smith on Dec 22nd, 2014 at 11:37am longweekend58 wrote on Dec 22nd, 2014 at 11:36am:
thats right longie ... no one does maths like you know maths .. and physics ;D ;D ;D |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by Karnal on Dec 22nd, 2014 at 11:38am longweekend58 wrote on Dec 22nd, 2014 at 11:23am:
True, Longy. You said that when JuLiar was in government too, no? |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by Swagman on Dec 22nd, 2014 at 11:38am Bam wrote on Dec 22nd, 2014 at 9:54am:
Where is my "personal attack on other posters"? Bam wrote on Dec 22nd, 2014 at 9:54am:
Don't need a link Bam it's my opinion....(the whole quote) Swagman wrote on Dec 22nd, 2014 at 9:30am:
...of course Dr John might disagree but you can provide a link for that.. |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by John Smith on Dec 22nd, 2014 at 11:41am longweekend58 wrote on Dec 22nd, 2014 at 11:34am:
time flies .... |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by longweekend58 on Dec 22nd, 2014 at 11:42am Melanias purse wrote on Dec 22nd, 2014 at 11:38am:
I did in fact. I said that I would rather a majority labor govt than a minority. Minority govts have to pander to the indies who have their own agendas and petty hates. and then she had the Greens who supported her when it suited them only. it was a disaster. |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by John Smith on Dec 22nd, 2014 at 11:44am longweekend58 wrote on Dec 22nd, 2014 at 11:42am:
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D rriiiiggghhthttt |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by longweekend58 on Dec 22nd, 2014 at 11:44am Swagman wrote on Dec 22nd, 2014 at 11:38am:
perhaps we should start quoting Mark Latham, another embittered failed wannabe PM. Hewson has been out of politics 20 years. There is a long, long list of politicians who love to vent their thoughts and opinions long after their relevance has evaporated. I don't know why we should listen to him any more than any of the others we routinely ignore. |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by longweekend58 on Dec 22nd, 2014 at 11:50am John Smith wrote on Dec 22nd, 2014 at 11:37am:
it wouldn't be hard to be better at maths and physics than the boofheads on here. While I am reviewing Quantum Mechanics, you lot can scarcely add and subtract. you certainly cannot multiply or exponentiation. |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by John Smith on Dec 22nd, 2014 at 11:53am longweekend58 wrote on Dec 22nd, 2014 at 11:50am:
wow longie, I'm impressed ... you even used a mathematical term . you're my hero ... do you mind if I contact you next time i go to coles ?.. I just want to make sure they give me the correct change D ;D ;D |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by Karnal on Dec 22nd, 2014 at 12:08pm Swagman wrote on Dec 22nd, 2014 at 11:27am:
No, people who have more money put more into savings. They invest in real estate, shares, family trusts, etc. Overall, we're quite democratic with how we spend. People can only eat so much. You can only live in one house at a time or drive one car. This is why Hockey's faux pas on poor people driving put so much egg on the government's face. Hockey was arguing the rich spend more on petrol. Every talkback caller knows just how farcical this is, and said so. The rich do not spend a lot more on goods and services than the poor. What they do is invest more. This is why giving tax concessions to invest in superannuation is unfair. The poor do not have extra money to invest. The government loses all that tax revenue, and when they simultaneously cut health, education and welfare, they cut spending. In boom times this is preferable. In recessive economic conditions, it's a recipe for disaster. As Hockey now acknowledges, what Australia needs to do is spend. Cutting government spending now would put Australia well into the red. If we lose our AAA credit rating, the interest on the deficit goes up, credit is harder to obtain, and this cuts economic growth even more. We're about 1.5% away from a recession now. Our terms of trade is spiralling out of whack. Your "common sense" is not economic sense. Even Joe Hockey has acknowledged this. And he apologized profusely for his poor people driving remark which, if you were listening carefully, says much about the Liberals' economic "plan". |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by bias_2012 on Dec 22nd, 2014 at 1:02pm
On the mining tax there was gross mismanagement from Whitlam through to Keating. The mining tax should have been set up during Fraser's watch, instead he thought foreign cost toll operations, transfer pricing and world parity pricing were better ideas, they had negative effects on our economy. Even a senate committee comprising libs and labs investigating foreign mining and processing involvement in 1980 drew the same conclusion ... they got it wrong. And now, latter day politicians are whinging their heads off
Keating was the last chance to fix it but he was too ignorant and cracked in the head A small tax imposed then, would be many extra billions by now, excluding wasteful spending of course As a result of their shortsightedness at that time, Swan had no hope, the foreign multinationals had become too strong and influential, given international business policies that generally over-ride our sovereignty. Our politicians now think "International" more than "National" and have become weaker, John Howard will tell you ... "It's hard to govern with diminishing sovereignty", he said |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by St George of the Puissant HLT on Dec 22nd, 2014 at 1:37pm
Tax cuts do not stimulate spending, except tax cuts to low income earners. The tripling of the tax free threshold saw lots more people take up work, mostly part time, and so spend more.
A GST taxes consumption and so depresses consumption in tough times, like now. |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by longweekend58 on Dec 22nd, 2014 at 2:07pm John Smith wrote on Dec 22nd, 2014 at 11:53am:
nah Im pretty sure you can to that although I bet the checkout operator cant! |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by longweekend58 on Dec 22nd, 2014 at 2:11pm Melanias purse wrote on Dec 22nd, 2014 at 12:08pm:
what planet do you live on? as a rule, people who earn more spend more. that is why so many people can end up in financial trouble even though they have earned huge amounts. Your statement is just plain nonsense. |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by longweekend58 on Dec 22nd, 2014 at 2:12pm St George of the Garden wrote on Dec 22nd, 2014 at 1:37pm:
that is so stupid there need to be a better word for just how ignorantly foolish that statement is. |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by longweekend58 on Dec 22nd, 2014 at 2:12pm St George of the Garden wrote on Dec 22nd, 2014 at 1:37pm:
remarkable. every single statement is dead wrong. |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by Dnarever on Dec 22nd, 2014 at 3:49pm longweekend58 wrote on Dec 22nd, 2014 at 10:57am:
The facts speak for themselves in this ? The Howard government's tax cuts etc did in fact very heavily sway towards the higher income levels. That is a fact and even Howard admitted it in his political death throws when he promised to do better in governing for all Australians next term if re elected. On the other side of the fence it is also undeniable that the vast majority of the Abbott governments budget savings are coming from those less well off. Don't ask me about class warfare - ask the Liberal party of Australia. |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by Dnarever on Dec 22nd, 2014 at 3:54pm longweekend58 wrote on Dec 22nd, 2014 at 2:11pm:
To a point you are correct, people who earn more also save more, invest more, put more into tax advantaged superannuation and are more involved in tax avoidance and tax minimisation. Low income earners have little option other than to put 100% of income into the economy, people on higher income have substantially more discretion in this area. |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by Karnal on Dec 22nd, 2014 at 4:20pm longweekend58 wrote on Dec 22nd, 2014 at 2:11pm:
Household spending figures do not back up your claim, Longy. The relationship between household income and household spending does not translate to a significant enough gap to warrant tax cuts to the rich to help them spend more. As the majority of people are not on high incomes, it's the low and middle income earners who sustain demand in the economy. If you tax the rich less, they'll simply save less. If you tax the poor less (or cut their pensions) they'll spend less. To suggest otherwise completely lacks common sense. Only an idiot or a liar would make such claims. |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by Karnal on Dec 22nd, 2014 at 4:24pm Dnarever wrote on Dec 22nd, 2014 at 3:54pm:
Exactly. And this is why tax concessions for investment in superannuation benefit the rich and help them to pay less tax. The poor don't save: not because they're spendthrifts but because - surprise surprise - they don't make enough money. |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by Karnal on Dec 22nd, 2014 at 4:28pm longweekend58 wrote on Dec 22nd, 2014 at 2:12pm:
That's strange. Joe Hockey said just that last week - a GST hike will only depress consumption and harm the economy. Who's right? Joe Hockey (treasurer) or Longy (expert in maths, physics, ethics and now economics)? |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by St George of the Puissant HLT on Dec 22nd, 2014 at 4:45pm
Longy has a big mouth that he exercises often. Pity it is not backed by facts. Question him and you get abuse.
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by longweekend58 on Dec 22nd, 2014 at 4:58pm Dnarever wrote on Dec 22nd, 2014 at 3:49pm:
they were the same across the board. they were not biased toward the rich. oh I forget... to understand that requires a level of maths higher than grade 3. |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by longweekend58 on Dec 22nd, 2014 at 5:00pm Melanias purse wrote on Dec 22nd, 2014 at 4:20pm:
you are quite simply a liar as you have been for so long. in your febrile mind it is some kind of offence to earn a good wage and therefore demanding punishment. that is why YOU are poor. poor in spirit as well as poor in money. |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by longweekend58 on Dec 22nd, 2014 at 5:02pm St George of the Garden wrote on Dec 22nd, 2014 at 4:45pm:
George... the maker of such brilliant statements as: only tax cuts for the poor stimulate the economy healthcare costs are dropping the new NBN will cost $200B and on an on it goes. One unbelievably stupid statement after another. |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by Karnal on Dec 22nd, 2014 at 5:11pm longweekend58 wrote on Dec 22nd, 2014 at 5:00pm:
Show me where Joe Hockey's argument is poor, Longy. As sad as it sounds, every day I survive without being killed in a successful terrorist attack to teach the idiots a lesson is a blessing. |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by Karnal on Dec 22nd, 2014 at 5:13pm St George of the Garden wrote on Dec 22nd, 2014 at 4:45pm:
Just as long as he doesn't call you an idiot. We all know what that means. Longy wants you killed: Quote:
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by longweekend58 on Dec 22nd, 2014 at 5:20pm Melanias purse wrote on Dec 22nd, 2014 at 5:13pm:
poor karnal... now I why why you have spent so much time posting in an attempt to be funny. when you try being serious you expose how much of a really dumb lefty twat that you are. |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by Bam on Dec 22nd, 2014 at 5:47pm Swagman wrote on Dec 22nd, 2014 at 11:27am:
Trickle Down Is a Myth, What We Are Seeing Is an Upward Torrent |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by Karnal on Dec 22nd, 2014 at 5:55pm longweekend58 wrote on Dec 22nd, 2014 at 5:20pm:
Sorry, Longy, are you disagreeing with something? Please explain. We’re all friends here, you know. Is Joe Hockey a lefty twat too? |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by St George of the Puissant HLT on Dec 22nd, 2014 at 5:55pm Melanias purse wrote on Dec 22nd, 2014 at 5:13pm:
That is about average for a Christian. You cannot trust a christian with your wife or daughter or your wallet. Christians really are the worst! |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by St George of the Puissant HLT on Dec 22nd, 2014 at 5:57pm longweekend58 wrote on Dec 22nd, 2014 at 2:12pm:
That is just you shooting of your mouth. Got any links or argument to back up your big mouth? Hint: consider the concept of discretionary income. I awaited with bated breath, bwahahahahahahahaha! |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by Karnal on Dec 22nd, 2014 at 5:58pm St George of the Garden wrote on Dec 22nd, 2014 at 5:55pm:
True, but I think Longy’s a mathematician. As sad as it sounds. |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by St George of the Puissant HLT on Dec 22nd, 2014 at 6:05pm Bias_2012 wrote on Dec 22nd, 2014 at 1:02pm:
Swan and Gillard had no chance because of the way Rudd handled the Henry report:sat on it for 18 months then a few weeks before the election announced a 40% superprofits tax? Recipe for failure! The MRRT was popular tho. |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by longweekend58 on Dec 22nd, 2014 at 6:05pm Bam wrote on Dec 22nd, 2014 at 5:47pm:
the term came from Ronald Reagan who took an American economy that was moribund and turned it into a dynamo. The results say the complete opposite. in your world of idiocy turning profitable companies into loss-making enterprises will improve the lot of the workers. Only George and perhaps Pansi cant see how stupid that is. |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by St George of the Puissant HLT on Dec 22nd, 2014 at 6:06pm Melanias purse wrote on Dec 22nd, 2014 at 5:58pm:
I better not say what I think of Longy, Andrea would ban me for 100 years. |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by Karnal on Dec 22nd, 2014 at 6:12pm St George of the Garden wrote on Dec 22nd, 2014 at 6:06pm:
Some posters say too much. The lovely new member Sarah was banned for saying nothing at all. I do look forward to her return. She makes Longy look positively sub-moronic. |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by longweekend58 on Dec 22nd, 2014 at 6:19pm St George of the Garden wrote on Dec 22nd, 2014 at 6:06pm:
based on your efforts so far on here and the almost unbelievable ignorance and depth of stupidity you demonstrate, I doubt you could even articulate it properly. You could actually top SOB for stupidest poster ever and most people would consider that almost impossible. |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by Bam on Dec 22nd, 2014 at 6:26pm longweekend58 wrote on Dec 22nd, 2014 at 6:05pm:
Ah, longynomics, I wondered when this would appear. "Trickle down" is a myth that has been refuted many times. Even conservatives who understand economics don't accept it - they are more likely to advocate a free market and individual enterprise rather than relying on the totally false trickle down theory. Only conservatives with no understanding of economics ever defend trickle down economics. Quote:
A straw man. Not surprising that you would make up yet another lie and falsely attribute it to me. This sort of lying crap is why you have no credibility here. |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by Karnal on Dec 22nd, 2014 at 6:32pm longweekend58 wrote on Dec 22nd, 2014 at 6:05pm:
Yes, Longy, the Savings and Loans crisis followed by the 1987 stock market crash and its subsequent recession are stellar results. The truth, however, is that Reagan did not dramatically lower taxes or red tape - nor did his successor, George H W Bush, who was ousted after one term for not delivering on his promised tax cuts. It was left to Clinton to deliver a surplus, only to be followed by George W Bush, who gave it all away in tax cuts to the rich while continuing to spend big. The legacy of what is known as Reaganomics is the current level of US debt and the highest wealth inequality in American history. It’s such a problem, the rich themselves are demanding to be taxed more, with billionaires like Bill Gates and Warren Buffet screaming out for change. And not because they’re nice, but because they sell things and employ people. Poverty and wealth inequality are not good for business. All that money going to the top 1% is dollars taken out of the market for goods and services. In the US, that 1% owns 40% of the wealth. By comparison, the bottom 80% own just 7%. As a mathematician, of course, you know all this, you’re just too polite to say. You don’t want to hurt poor people’s feelings. |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by longweekend58 on Dec 22nd, 2014 at 6:34pm Bam wrote on Dec 22nd, 2014 at 6:26pm:
your problem however is that was at the core of REagonomics - a policy that revitalised a nations economy. in the end, it is rather hard to argue with stellar results. you don't have to like it, but you don't get to say it didn't happen. of course you could always point me to a highly successful left-wing run economy based on your ideas. Might be on on Mars because there sure ain't one on earth. |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by Swagman on Dec 22nd, 2014 at 8:51pm Bam wrote on Dec 22nd, 2014 at 5:47pm:
Amusing photo Bam but I can use the same image to demonstrate trickle down economics in our ochlocratic taxation system. The vast majority of tax is paid by the top 25% of taxpayers. It funds the welfare handouts to the socalled poor. The top 25% of taxpayers pay for the lion's share of the individual's cost of govt. The more successful the top 25% are the more tax is stolen by the ochlocrats. PLAINLY the downtrodden benefit from trickle down. If you don't agree then deduct the 67% of personal income tax the top 25% pay and try and fund your budget.... ::) :-? :-? :-? |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by Bam on Dec 22nd, 2014 at 9:06pm Swagman wrote on Dec 22nd, 2014 at 8:51pm:
The top 20% to 25% pay more tax because they earn more money and have most of the wealth. Why do you always ignore this basic truth? It's been pointed out to you numerous times, so I can only conclude that you are telling half the story in order to mislead wilfully. If you're alleging that the top 25% pay 67% of the tax, I want you to cite a source. They are earning more than 67% of the income. In your feeble effort to misrepresent the diagram for your nefarious campaign of misleading, you have also forgotten that the bottom glasses are all empty because the top income earners are stealing all the wealth. Fail. |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by Karnal on Dec 22nd, 2014 at 9:11pm Swagman wrote on Dec 22nd, 2014 at 8:51pm:
Be careful, Swagman, you’ll have Longy on your case for dodgy maths in a sec. Where does your 25% figure actually come from? |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by chicken_lipsforme on Dec 22nd, 2014 at 9:16pm Its time wrote on Dec 20th, 2014 at 11:48pm:
Hewson is a sour PM ustawannabe trying to get another 15 minutes in the media. He had his chance back in the day, and blew it. It's time to go back to the nursing home John. |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by Bam on Dec 22nd, 2014 at 9:27pm Swagman wrote on Dec 22nd, 2014 at 8:51pm:
And another thing ... you are basing your whole "net tax" argument on a lie. Your argument appears to be sourced from a few opinion pieces published in The Australian recently, authored by David Uren and Adam Creighton. These articles lied by omission. They based their theses only on income taxes but ignored a raft of indirect taxes like GST, fuel excise, alcohol excise and numerous other taxes that everyone pays. Uren's piece, for example, has glaring errors that don't stand up to scrutiny. From the linked piece: Quote:
False. Nobody starts to pay income tax until $18200 (actually it’s $20542, but let’s not quibble). Low income earners still pay other taxes. Quote:
False. The bottom 40% receive more in cash benefits than they pay in tax. The middle 20% do not (if you include indirect taxes). If you include in-kind benefits, then the true figure is somewhere between 40% and 60% of households that receive more in total (not just cash) benefits than they pay in tax. The quintile figures in the ABS publication show the averages; they don’t mean that all households in that quintile match the average. Quote:
Incomplete. On average, households in the middle 20 per cent also pay $171 in indirect taxes.[/quote] Here is why the omission of indirect taxes is untruthful, and why Swag has been duped: |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by Karnal on Dec 22nd, 2014 at 9:54pm
Bam, why do you bother blowing silly arguments out of the water with maths? All you have do do is call them idiots and liars and have a jolly chuckle.
Case closed. |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by SupositoryofWisdom on Dec 22nd, 2014 at 10:16pm chicken_lipsforme wrote on Dec 22nd, 2014 at 9:16pm:
took awhile but I knew one would take the bait :D |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by Bam on Dec 22nd, 2014 at 10:26pm Melanias purse wrote on Dec 22nd, 2014 at 9:54pm:
Never underestimate the power of mathematics. |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by Swagman on Dec 22nd, 2014 at 10:48pm Bam wrote on Dec 22nd, 2014 at 9:27pm:
Why didn't you answer my question? Swagman wrote on Dec 22nd, 2014 at 8:51pm:
In 2013 the Govt budget received 45% of it's revenue in personal income taxes. $175 Billion dollars. Source The top 25% paid 67% of this. $117 Billion dollars. Take $117 billion out of the budget and try and fund all the welfare and public services with what's left. Then tell me there is no trickle down.... ::) Your pic is a dud. So someone on $20K that pays zero income tax pays around 19% of their income (< $4k) in indirect taxes? $4K :o ;D Someone on $180K pays $87K income tax & $45k (25%) indirectly. Dud argument Bam. ;D ;D |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by bias_2012 on Dec 23rd, 2014 at 6:12am
Then there's the $700 million disappearing overseas per month in interest payments - good one Libs and Labs, you really know how to run a country, don't cha ?
You needn't keep honouring yourselves, you're all heading for the loony bin |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by Dnarever on Dec 23rd, 2014 at 6:23am Swagman wrote on Dec 22nd, 2014 at 8:51pm:
Do you know that trickle down is a political theory which is not supported by any economist ? |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by crocodile on Dec 23rd, 2014 at 7:22am Bam wrote on Dec 22nd, 2014 at 9:27pm:
False. The bottom 40% receive more in cash benefits than they pay in tax. The middle 20% do not (if you include indirect taxes). If you include in-kind benefits, then the true figure is somewhere between 40% and 60% of households that receive more in total (not just cash) benefits than they pay in tax. The quintile figures in the ABS publication show the averages; they don’t mean that all households in that quintile match the average. Quote:
Incomplete. On average, households in the middle 20 per cent also pay $171 in indirect taxes.[/quote] Here is why the omission of indirect taxes is untruthful, and why Swag has been duped: [/quote] Wouldn't mind seeing that chart with all the transfer payments included as well. |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by Swagman on Dec 23rd, 2014 at 8:08am Dnarever wrote on Dec 23rd, 2014 at 6:23am:
Oh here we go another theory supposedly not supported by 100% of 'experts'... ::) Trickle down is an 'Americanism'. Some smart arsed comedian named it. Comedians want to appeal to their audience so comedians pick on minorities, and guess what; the majority of people aren't rich. Bagging the rich is a winner, in the good old politically incorrect past they told Irish jokes etc. I used the 'term' because I thought it 'apt', so if you don't like that term, then call it Swaggy's I know that of all the Australian electorate, it's the 'poor' that benefit the most from the income earning capacity of the top 25% of tax payers. The more income they (the top 25% or the top 10% or 5% or 40%) make, the more tax they pay, (directly and indirectly), and the more tax they pay, the more Govt benefits and services the poor receive. It's bleedin obvious. :-? You are trying to argue that my viewpoint is somehow wrong just because you ideologically believe that people on high incomes are inherently evil and are constantly trying to rip off poor people to their own benefit (the lefty's battle cry)........I envy the rich too, but I don't hate them for I can see the benefits they provide. Those benefits actually do 'trickle down' you just have to open both eyes and not just your left one... :D To make it easier condense it down and look at a family household situation. Assume the parents are the high income earners and the kids are the poor. The more money dad (or mum) makes the better the standard of living that their kids have. Agree or disagree? From my vantage point our economy is essentially no different to this analogy. The high income earners on mass are figuratively the parents and the poor are the kids. Simple. The richer the parents the better off the kids. :) :-? So I'll say it yet again......If you don't agree, then deduct the 67% of personal income tax the top 25% pay and see what that does to welfare and the public service..... :( |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by Bam on Dec 23rd, 2014 at 8:34am Swagman wrote on Dec 22nd, 2014 at 10:48pm:
(1) it is a stupid hypothetical question, and (2) you never answer questions related to incomes for the top quintile, tax evasion by the wealthy and other similar topics. Quote:
Because they earned most of the income, roughly as much as they paid in tax. Why do you refuse to discuss the income disparity? Quote:
Taxes paid are roughly proportional to income, and there is little real difference between the percentage of tax paid by the bottom 20% and the top 20%. Your obsession with income taxes while ignoring regressive indirect taxes like the GST is not at all convincing. You seem to want to live in a fantasy world where everyone pays the same amount of income tax even though the income disparity is enormous. Or, even worse, a world where the poor paid all the taxes and the wealthy lived tax-free. The last time that was tried was pre-revolutionary France, and look how that turned out - tens of thousands of dead nobles and most of the rest living in exile. Many wealthy people already pay no tax (due to their rorting of excessively generous tax deductions), yet this is another point you have consistently ignored. I have never denied that the top quintile pays more income taxes. The reason is really simple - they earn more money. They earn money off the backs of everyone else which refutes the trickle down nonsense. |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by John Smith on Dec 23rd, 2014 at 8:36am
swag won't be happy until he pays no tax ..... anything else is just unfair :D :D :D :D
don't worry Swag, with Abbott running the country into recession, your chance may come sooner than you think. ::) ::) ::) |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by Bam on Dec 23rd, 2014 at 8:39am crocodile wrote on Dec 23rd, 2014 at 7:22am:
I provided the source but it wasn't clear. Here is the source again with the chart in its proper context. |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by Karnal on Dec 23rd, 2014 at 8:42am
I’d like to see an actual source for the top 25% paying 67% of tax. Actual tax.
Can anyone reference this? |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by Bam on Dec 23rd, 2014 at 8:52am Swagman wrote on Dec 23rd, 2014 at 8:08am:
Here's some context to show why this alleged theory is not taken seriously. https://youtu.be/QPKKQnijnsM Would love to see a similar study done on Australian wealth inequality, so we can see the real reason the top 20% pay the most tax. (Hint - it's because they earn the most.) |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by Swagman on Dec 23rd, 2014 at 9:01am Bam wrote on Dec 23rd, 2014 at 8:52am:
...which is irrelevant |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by John Smith on Dec 23rd, 2014 at 9:03am Swagman wrote on Dec 23rd, 2014 at 9:01am:
in your mind maybe, but that's the whole basis of our tax system. |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by Bam on Dec 23rd, 2014 at 9:06am Swagman wrote on Dec 23rd, 2014 at 9:01am:
Specious handwaving is not a refutation. |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by Swagman on Dec 23rd, 2014 at 9:29am Melanias purse wrote on Dec 23rd, 2014 at 8:42am:
Yes see below This one has it at 63% Source Here's another Source: Quote:
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by Rocketanski on Dec 23rd, 2014 at 9:35am
The more you earn the more tax you pay. That's how it works and that's the same for everybody.
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by John Smith on Dec 23rd, 2014 at 9:36am
ahh, two opinion pieces ... so no real data from the ATO?
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by Swagman on Dec 23rd, 2014 at 9:42am John Smith wrote on Dec 23rd, 2014 at 9:03am:
Yes it is. The tax system redistributes income from those that make it to those that don't. The more income that those that make it, make, the more redistributed income those that don't make it, get. Therefore obviously the better it is for the those that make it the better it is for those that don't -> AKA, trickle down theory :) |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by Swagman on Dec 23rd, 2014 at 9:44am John Smith wrote on Dec 23rd, 2014 at 9:36am:
Everything is an opinion. Davidson however cites the ATO Jonathon.... |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by Karnal on Dec 23rd, 2014 at 10:32am Swagman wrote on Dec 23rd, 2014 at 9:29am:
Thanks, Swagman. Great maths. You've proved your point. |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by Karnal on Dec 23rd, 2014 at 10:33am
Hang on - the top 25% are those with incomes over $75,000?
How could that possibly be right? That's almost the average wage. |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by Bam on Dec 23rd, 2014 at 11:07am Swagman wrote on Dec 23rd, 2014 at 9:44am:
Selective citation. |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by longweekend58 on Dec 23rd, 2014 at 11:13am Bam wrote on Dec 23rd, 2014 at 11:07am:
irrefutable facts seem to disturb you when they are not to your liking. |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by John Smith on Dec 23rd, 2014 at 12:05pm Swagman wrote on Dec 23rd, 2014 at 9:44am:
yes, he cherry picked the data that supported his argument and ignored the rest ;D ;D ;D ;D |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by Swagman on Dec 23rd, 2014 at 12:16pm John Smith wrote on Dec 23rd, 2014 at 12:05pm:
You are free to refute it with your own cherry picked data... :D |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by longweekend58 on Dec 23rd, 2014 at 12:21pm Swagman wrote on Dec 23rd, 2014 at 12:16pm:
and lefties wonder why so many people don't bother showing links. when you do they still deny it. its pointless. |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by Karnal on Dec 23rd, 2014 at 1:06pm longweekend58 wrote on Dec 23rd, 2014 at 12:21pm:
As sad as it seems... |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by Swagman on Dec 23rd, 2014 at 1:13pm Melanias purse wrote on Dec 23rd, 2014 at 10:33am:
Now yes, but the data is 11/12 FY. Tax share of the top 25% has steadilly increased from 60% in 1996 to 67% 11/12 :-? |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by Karnal on Dec 23rd, 2014 at 1:29pm Swagman wrote on Dec 23rd, 2014 at 1:13pm:
Wages growth has been stable since 2011/12. The average annual wage in Australia (November, 2013) is $74, 724. Your figures are wrong. |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by Swagman on Dec 23rd, 2014 at 2:06pm Melanias purse wrote on Dec 23rd, 2014 at 1:29pm:
My figures are sourced, yours aren't..... |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by Karnal on Dec 23rd, 2014 at 2:22pm Swagman wrote on Dec 23rd, 2014 at 2:06pm:
True, but how can all incomes above the average wage only be 25% of income earners? This isn't statistically possible. |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by John Smith on Dec 23rd, 2014 at 2:26pm Melanias purse wrote on Dec 23rd, 2014 at 2:22pm:
thats irrelevant .... he has a source ;D ;D ;D |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by longweekend58 on Dec 23rd, 2014 at 2:33pm Melanias purse wrote on Dec 23rd, 2014 at 2:22pm:
not buying into the debate without figures but the median and average are two very different measurments. |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by Karnal on Dec 23rd, 2014 at 2:35pm John Smith wrote on Dec 23rd, 2014 at 2:26pm:
I'd like to see the brakedown. Is it household or employee income? All earnings, or just salaries? PAYE tax or total income? Does it include tax deductions? Is it actual revenue collected, or estimates? Whatever the case, $75,000 is not a high income. This income doesn't even attract the Medicare levy. As it stands, what Swagman's figures show is that 67% of income taxes are not collected from high income earners, but average income earners. And this comes from his source. |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by Karnal on Dec 23rd, 2014 at 2:39pm longweekend58 wrote on Dec 23rd, 2014 at 2:33pm:
True, but what stopped you buying into the debate? You were going so well there for a while, Longy. Swagman has shown us that average income earners pay the lion's share of income tax, which is pretty common knowledge. The rich do not pay the majority of income taxes. Most pay tax through company tax, using ABNs. |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by John Smith on Dec 23rd, 2014 at 2:45pm Melanias purse wrote on Dec 23rd, 2014 at 2:35pm:
I'm agreeing with you .. swaggies figures are all over the place. |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by longweekend58 on Dec 23rd, 2014 at 2:51pm Melanias purse wrote on Dec 23rd, 2014 at 2:35pm:
you are starting to sound like George in that you are simply making stuff up. $75K most certainly attracts the medicare levy. in fact it starts at less than half that. if you want to pretend that high income earners don't pay the vast majority of income tax then you are welcome to your delusion. You have already made it quite clear you don't believe even though it has been mentioned multiple times WITH FACTS. and even after anyone with even half a brain and a year 10 maths level could work out that it was rather obviously true. ONe single look at tax scales should make it rather obvious. but not to you. |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by Karnal on Dec 23rd, 2014 at 2:59pm longweekend58 wrote on Dec 23rd, 2014 at 2:51pm:
The Medicare Levy surcharge kicks in at $88,000, Longy. High income earners generally pay company tax, not income tax. If employed professionals, they generally use ABNs, not tax file numbers. The super-wealthy make their money from businesses, not wages. I'm assuming Swagman's source refers to wages and PAYE (or income) tax. If you want to add company tax to the mix, feel free. Cite a source. Bear in mind, however, this will only ever be an estimate. CEOs and large shareholders are paid through a myriad of channels. Published CEO salaries are only ever estimates. Shareholders and the recipients of trust funds are able to minimize tax through a range of ways. The real rich are not paid incomes, but receive profits. Quote:
So publish the tax scales. |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by John Smith on Dec 23rd, 2014 at 3:08pm Melanias purse wrote on Dec 23rd, 2014 at 2:59pm:
the medicare levy , and the medicare levy surcharge are two different things the first is the medicare levy you are thinking off , the second is the libs trying to force me onto private health insurance ... you only pay it if you don't have private cover. |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by Karnal on Dec 23rd, 2014 at 3:15pm John Smith wrote on Dec 23rd, 2014 at 3:08pm:
Do lower income earners also pay a levy at tax time? |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by longweekend58 on Dec 23rd, 2014 at 3:16pm John Smith wrote on Dec 23rd, 2014 at 3:08pm:
you are correct, I confused the two. You might do to remember that the surcharge has been around for decades. |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by Karnal on Dec 23rd, 2014 at 3:21pm longweekend58 wrote on Dec 23rd, 2014 at 3:16pm:
No, the surcharge was introduced by the Howard government. JS is right - it was a policy proposed by the insurance lobbies to encourage people into private health insurance. |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by John Smith on Dec 23rd, 2014 at 3:22pm Melanias purse wrote on Dec 23rd, 2014 at 3:15pm:
everyone has the medicare levy added to their tax .. however, you may at the end still be given a tax refund depending on your circumstances ... I think the current rate is 1.5% although Gillard had talked about raising it to fund the NDIS... not sure if that went through or not. |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by Bam on Dec 23rd, 2014 at 3:46pm longweekend58 wrote on Dec 23rd, 2014 at 2:33pm:
Wrong. Median IS an average. ::) So are the mean and mode. longweekend58 wrote on Dec 23rd, 2014 at 3:16pm:
Not really, the Medicare levy surcharge was introduced on July 1, 1997. longweekend58 wrote on Dec 22nd, 2014 at 11:34am:
Wrong. 3 December, 2007. Quote:
Wrong again. Gillard challenged Rudd on June 24, 2010. How many times can you be wrong in a single thread? |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by longweekend58 on Dec 23rd, 2014 at 3:52pm Bam wrote on Dec 23rd, 2014 at 3:46pm:
and did it occur to you that 'average' in this context was clearly arithmetic mean and I was stating that there is a difference between median and arithmetic mean. I note you ahev had no input on the 'rich pay it all' thread. nor has karnal or most of the usual suspects. Perhaps the facts are too hard, the analysis too daunting and the bottom line too unpalatable? |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by longweekend58 on Dec 23rd, 2014 at 4:04pm Bam wrote on Dec 23rd, 2014 at 3:46pm:
and you think that changes anything in the argument? the claim was that Rudd was PM for 'little over a year'. grow up. and how about join the other thread and show off your self-vaunted intellect. |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by Swagman on Dec 23rd, 2014 at 5:47pm Melanias purse wrote on Dec 23rd, 2014 at 2:22pm:
Why isn't it statistically possible? https://www.ato.gov.au/About-ATO/Research-and-statistics/In-detail/Tax-statistics/Taxation-statistics-2011-12/?page=8#Figure4 more ATO data . |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by longweekend58 on Dec 23rd, 2014 at 6:06pm Swagman wrote on Dec 23rd, 2014 at 5:47pm:
why is this so hard for karnal and the other mathematically-challenged posters, to get? surely it isn't that hard? |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by Karnal on Dec 23rd, 2014 at 7:01pm longweekend58 wrote on Dec 23rd, 2014 at 6:06pm:
Yes, Longy, it’s a real struggle. Have a look at Swagman’s figures. Middle income earners (between $37,000 and $180,0000) pay 70% of all income tax. What were you saying about high income earners and tax again, Swagman? |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by longweekend58 on Dec 23rd, 2014 at 7:04pm Melanias purse wrote on Dec 23rd, 2014 at 7:01pm:
what kind of a pointless statement is that? |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by Karnal on Dec 23rd, 2014 at 7:14pm longweekend58 wrote on Dec 23rd, 2014 at 7:04pm:
Only the sort of pointless argument that middle income earners pay the bulk of income taxes. The school vouchers are in the post. |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by Swagman on Dec 23rd, 2014 at 7:44pm Melanias purse wrote on Dec 23rd, 2014 at 7:01pm:
Your 'middle' earners Karnal would be those between $37k - $80k in that table. According to ATO data 11/12 they paid 32.8% of tax and represent 37.3% of tax payers. High income earners would be $80k +. You'll likely find that that is where the medicare surcharge kicks in (or did back then) High income earners from that chart represent 16.7% of tax payers but pay 63.6% of net tax. As I mentioned earlier The tax system redistributes income from those that make it to those that don't. The more income that those that make it, make, the more redistributed income those that don't make it, get. Therefore obviously the better it is for the those that make it, the better it is for those that don't -> AKA, trickle down theory demonstrated I guess it's a myth that trickle down is a myth :D |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by St George of the Puissant HLT on Dec 23rd, 2014 at 7:47pm
Somebody who declares $180,001+ in income to the ATO probably earned rather more than that.
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by St George of the Puissant HLT on Dec 23rd, 2014 at 7:48pm
Somebody who declares $180,001+ in income to the ATO probably earned rather more than that.
Longy never analyses a problem before he jumps in. Crap maths. |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by Swagman on Dec 23rd, 2014 at 7:59pm
...bin on the Xmas schnapps Georgie? ;D
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by Dnarever on Dec 23rd, 2014 at 8:17pm Quote:
Sounds a lot like what I have been saying for a while now and it is right, They had geared our economy to fail under pressure which was inevitable. Quote:
You can not really blame them a lot for screwing it up but gee they done a good job of it, we will be paying their debt back for a decade if we are lucky. |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by Swagman on Dec 23rd, 2014 at 8:41pm Quote:
......reality check :D |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by bias_2012 on Dec 23rd, 2014 at 8:45pm
"we will be paying their debt back for a decade if we are lucky"
Yeah, via 10%-20% inflation |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by St George of the Puissant HLT on Dec 23rd, 2014 at 8:49pm Swagman wrote on Dec 23rd, 2014 at 7:59pm:
Heh, looks like a hiccup I have to admit but no not schnapps. |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by St George of the Puissant HLT on Dec 23rd, 2014 at 8:53pm Dnarever wrote on Dec 23rd, 2014 at 8:17pm:
You can not really blame them a lot for screwing it up but gee they done a good job of it, we will be paying their debt back for a decade if we are lucky.[/quote] Still a LOT of Howard’s middleclass welfare to be cut, Budget would be in surplus if they did! And Abbott and Hokey will quadruple the debt before they get booted out. |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by Bam on Dec 23rd, 2014 at 10:21pm Swagman wrote on Dec 23rd, 2014 at 9:01am:
Net tax is irrelevant. |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by Swagman on Dec 24th, 2014 at 6:18am Bam wrote on Dec 23rd, 2014 at 10:21pm:
The 'net' tax described here is taxable incomes (net of deductable expenses & tax offsets) not tax to Govt net of benefits. Neither is irrelevant though. |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by The Grappler (50 shades of) on Dec 24th, 2014 at 6:29am
After deductions in most cases Swag.. after deductions for living costs not afforded to the common herd... nobody pays Jo Bloggs a tax deduction to drive to the station and catch a train to go to work........
But then Joe Hockshop has it right - the poor don't use cars... much... |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by longweekend58 on Dec 24th, 2014 at 7:15am Swagman wrote on Dec 24th, 2014 at 6:18am:
are you enjoying the site of the lefties contorting themselves to try and misinterpret the rather obvious fact son who pays tax and who doesn't? it is quite fun. I knew they were stupid and ignorant, but to flatly deny ATO and ABs statistics on actual tax collected (ie not an estimate) is astonishing. The intellectual capacity and honesty of the left is.... negligible. |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by Karnal on Dec 24th, 2014 at 7:19am
Longy’s in full cover-up mode. He thinks the more he posts, the more he covers his tracks.
And he thinks no one notices this. |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by Swagman on Dec 24th, 2014 at 7:36am Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM wrote on Dec 24th, 2014 at 6:29am:
I'm not championing the tax system, Grappler (I have plenty of the undeductibles you mention) just pointing out a few realities. Mind you if one is still paying a crap load of tax after deductions for living costs even those "not afforded to the common herd" it shouldn't matter one iota to socialist slave overseers :D They still get more'n their pound (kilogram) of flesh.... :D |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by Swagman on Dec 24th, 2014 at 7:44am longweekend58 wrote on Dec 24th, 2014 at 7:15am:
Aye, 'tis a particularlly robust discussion we be havin' with the 'Truebelievers' this day... :) |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by Stratos on Dec 24th, 2014 at 7:50am longweekend58 wrote on Dec 24th, 2014 at 7:15am:
Come on now, this is a bit disingenuous. As i pointed out yesterday, the article itself does contortions to try and spin things their way, and as i pointed out, flat out lies in its presumptions that only the rich pay net tax. Far more depends on life circumstance (whether you are sick/healthy, have kids/don't have kids) than your income bracket. The data is fine, the conclusions of the intellectual half pint drawing them is not. |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by Karnal on Dec 24th, 2014 at 8:01am
You’ve already acknowledged your mistake, Swagman: you categorised high incomes at 1996 levels.
Today, $74,000 is the national average. Many households would be earning $180,000. The three tax scales you’ve referenced support this. Tax is not a mistake. The ATO has very deliberately spread the tax burden across the income scale. The top end (over $180,000) contribute about 5% less than low and middle income earners, but this is just quibbling. Each population contributes almost a third of the pie. There is no way anyone could surmise from your ATO figures that the rich support the tax system. |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by longweekend58 on Dec 24th, 2014 at 8:09am Stratos wrote on Dec 24th, 2014 at 7:50am:
to be fair to you, stratos, you made a fine case and while we choose to disagree in part, you used facts and argument and did so well. my point is that the rest of your crowd have been an utter embarrassment by simply deny actual ATO facts, misinterpreting and gross stupidity. yes the article has some bias and agenda as does the ACTU document I also read on the same document. but the actual underelying facts are unchallenged... but that doesn't stop the lefties on here doing exactly that. |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by John Smith on Dec 24th, 2014 at 8:11am
,
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by longweekend58 on Dec 24th, 2014 at 8:11am Melanias purse wrote on Dec 24th, 2014 at 8:01am:
hey stratos.... here is a stellar example of what I was just saying. Karnal is either ignorant of basic maths or a fool. IM not sure that that makes any real difference. |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by Karnal on Dec 24th, 2014 at 8:17am longweekend58 wrote on Dec 24th, 2014 at 8:11am:
It’s not just me, Longy. No one here can understand how a figure of 26% can be calculated to become 63%. Could you fill us in on the formula? Cheers. |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by John Smith on Dec 24th, 2014 at 8:25am Melanias purse wrote on Dec 24th, 2014 at 8:17am:
longies formulae is easy x = whateveryouwantittobe |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by Swagman on Dec 24th, 2014 at 8:44am Melanias purse wrote on Dec 24th, 2014 at 8:01am:
It's RMIT professor of institutional economics Sinclair Davidson's BCom, BCom(Hons), MCom (Wits), PhD, Grad Cert T&L (RMIT) data (not mine). He wrote a paper on the subject 10 or so years ago and regularly updates his data on his blog. He's one of those rare commodities.....a non lefty academic.. ;D The date is largely irrelevant. One could use 1996 or 2014 data and the result is still the same even with GST. Now you can dodge around and try and deny the figures as much as you want but it won't alter the fact that a small percentage of taxpayers pay the vast majority of tax. Melanias purse wrote on Dec 24th, 2014 at 8:01am:
Really? After all the evidence and data provided..... that is your conclusion? :-? Here's I thinking you were having a 'serious' debate here? :( |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by longweekend58 on Dec 24th, 2014 at 10:26am Swagman wrote on Dec 24th, 2014 at 8:44am:
karnal is never serious and we now know why. he is dumber tan snot so failed attempts at humour is all he can do. when asked to simply count... he cant. |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by Karnal on Dec 24th, 2014 at 12:12pm Swagman wrote on Dec 24th, 2014 at 8:44am:
Swagman, I've explained why average incomes count. In 1996, $75,000 was a fairly high income. Today, it's the average. At the risk of endlessly repeating myself, your ATO figures show that 70.2% of income tax is paid by middle income earners. High income earners contribute 26%. These tax thresholds are the ATO's, not mine. The data I've been shown has been made up. Longy refuses to say how he comes up with completely different figures to the ATO, based on their own data. This is a most serious debate, and I'm glad you're discussing it. Initially, I congratulated you for proving your point. After reading more closely, however, I realized you were basing your point on 1996 incomes, or so you said. I'm happy to accept the facts here. I have no agenda to push. All I have is a belief that tax is deliberately spread across the board, and - again - your own ATO figures show this. Unfortunately, you can't take this back. The ATO data is current and correct. It can't be spin any other way than what it is. I accept, however, that $180,000 is well above the average income, but it is not "rich". As we know, the average is $74,000. The difference between the low tax threshold of $37,000 and the average is $37,000. To place the average squarely in the middle, we would come up with a range of $37,000 and $111,000. To me, this shows the tax rates slightly favour upper-middle income earners (or those above $111,000). However, the percentages favour this income bracket, which contributes 37% of the income tax pie, as opposed to 33% on low incomes and 26% on high incomes above $180,000. Again, there is no way you can skew these figures if you accept the average income as $74,000. If anything, they show that upper-middle income earners above $111,000 get off slightly lightly by being included in the same tax bracket of those above $37,000 (instead of those who earn more than $180,000). What the ATO figures clearly show, however, is that middle income earners contribute the most to the tax pie. 26% is not a majority. I also question whether incomes slightly over $180,000 comprise"the rich". A teacher, nurse or cop on $80 or $90,000 a year with a share portfolio and an investment property could easily earn $180,000 as a sole income. Most middle managers earn this in salary alone, and no one would call them "the rich". I'm happy to discuss the criteria in more detail if you'd like, but you seem committed to defending a position you can't possibly prove, based on the ATO data you've provided. When you want to engage in a discussion based on your very own sources, please let me know. |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by SupositoryofWisdom on Dec 24th, 2014 at 12:29pm
You
Melanias purse wrote on Dec 24th, 2014 at 12:12pm:
Good post, I am somewhat bewildered how they came to the conclusion they did with the figures provided , as for longy and insults , we can put that down to a low self esteem and not feeling to good about himself. |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by John Smith on Dec 24th, 2014 at 12:34pm Its time wrote on Dec 24th, 2014 at 12:29pm:
really? I put it down to a low IQ ... how else can you claim the rich pay the majority of taxes? |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by Karnal on Dec 24th, 2014 at 12:56pm
But get this, we've been discussing "net" income tax figures, which includes reductions for payments like the Family Tax Benefit, etc.
If we were looking at "gross" income tax, the proportion of income tax paid by lower income earners would be significantly higher. |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by Dnarever on Dec 24th, 2014 at 1:28pm Swagman wrote on Dec 23rd, 2014 at 8:41pm:
Agreed - You needed it. |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by Dnarever on Dec 24th, 2014 at 1:31pm longweekend58 wrote on Dec 24th, 2014 at 7:15am:
Isn't there a topic to discuss this rather meaningless babble fest without derailing discussion on the very real problems caused by the Howard governments incompetence ? |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by longweekend58 on Dec 24th, 2014 at 2:30pm Its time wrote on Dec 24th, 2014 at 12:29pm:
the discussion was all based on fact which most of you chose to completely ignore. then when it suits you, you come up with a 'middle income range' that is ludicrous. $37K middle income??? $180K middle income?? and therein is the basis of your appalling analysis. you start with an outcome and then redefine all the facts to suit your preferred outcome. |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by Karnal on Dec 24th, 2014 at 2:40pm longweekend58 wrote on Dec 24th, 2014 at 2:30pm:
Looks like Longy didn't read the "average" income figure: $74,000. No one made this up, Longy, it comes from the ABS. Feel free to tell us what you mean by "the rich" (who pay ALL of the tax). |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by longweekend58 on Dec 24th, 2014 at 4:00pm Melanias purse wrote on Dec 24th, 2014 at 2:40pm:
well since it took two days to even get you to read two lines on a table and understand them - or even accept them - there is zero chance of you discussing more complex issues. you are even a ignorant as to think that tax scales and rates are related to wealth. IN fact, I cant even think of a way I could say that that you could possibly understand. and the average wage didn't even come up in the OP. but you never read the OP, did you? Probably got bored after 3 lines and leapt to your ideologically driven opinions and missed all those messy facts, figures and analyses. |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by Karnal on Dec 24th, 2014 at 6:07pm longweekend58 wrote on Dec 24th, 2014 at 4:00pm:
So you didn’t read the bit in the OP where he talks about the difference between the average and median incomes. Have you read the article yourself, Longy? |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by Bam on Dec 24th, 2014 at 7:08pm Melanias purse wrote on Dec 24th, 2014 at 12:56pm:
Income tax is only a part of the story. |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by Andrei.Hicks on Dec 24th, 2014 at 7:14pm Bam wrote on Dec 24th, 2014 at 7:08pm:
Agree. Income tax should be lowered and GST put at 20%. GST is much harder to avoid and spreads tax across a greater population. |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by Karnal on Dec 24th, 2014 at 7:48pm Andrei.Hicks wrote on Dec 24th, 2014 at 7:14pm:
And you wouldn’t pay either. Imagine anyone here telling you Boers how to live. STOP THE BOATS. |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by Bam on Dec 24th, 2014 at 10:34pm Andrei.Hicks wrote on Dec 24th, 2014 at 7:14pm:
GST and other indirect taxes are highly regressive, it's why the well-off like them so much. Karma - you lose your job to someone from overseas who can do it better for one-tenth the pay. |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by Swagman on Dec 25th, 2014 at 4:50pm
Regressive taxes still benefit the downtrodden the most.
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by SupositoryofWisdom on Dec 25th, 2014 at 7:54pm Swagman wrote on Dec 25th, 2014 at 4:50pm:
Downtrodden? It's great you have found your "niche" but referring to those unfortunates in that context is obscene |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by John Smith on Dec 25th, 2014 at 8:07pm Swagman wrote on Dec 25th, 2014 at 4:50pm:
rubbish ... they benefit the rich the most, thats why the rich like them so much :D :D |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by Swagman on Dec 25th, 2014 at 10:34pm John Smith wrote on Dec 25th, 2014 at 8:07pm:
The rich get effall from the Govt Jonathon, but the 'downtrodden' live off the Govt. The more tax revenues from any damned source is an obvious benefit to the 'downtrodden'. :-? Its time wrote on Dec 25th, 2014 at 7:54pm:
That's from the lefty's phrase book SOW, always squarking about being trodden down by the evil capitalists.... :D Try using some of that wisdom you have supposited up your Kyber pass..... ;D |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by John Smith on Dec 25th, 2014 at 11:59pm Swagman wrote on Dec 25th, 2014 at 10:34pm:
i guess it's all the downtrodden that benefit from the super co- contribution subsidies? and it's the downtrodden that benefit from the companies they have shares in being subsidised by up to $5B? you keep telling me how the rich get nothing Swag ... one day someone will believe you, not today, but one day :D :D :D |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by Karnal on Dec 26th, 2014 at 12:21am John Smith wrote on Dec 25th, 2014 at 8:07pm:
No, Swagman’s right. The very purpose of taxation is to help those who can’t help themselves. This is why we form societies - to provide mutual benefits we couldn’t possibly achieve on our own. This isn’t a "leftard" slant, it’s the whole purpose of civilization. Children and old people can’t fend for themselves. They require support. Likewise, business can’t function without healthy labour, training, licensing regulations, civil courts, a rule of law. Taxes provide funding for all these things. The tax burden falls on middle income earners because there are more of them. And yes, the big ticket items are welfare, health and education. These benefit low income earners more than anyone else. The rich don’t get Newstart payments and rarely use public hospitals. They can afford private schools. They don’t need subsidized or state housing. They don’t even need to use public transport. The rich, however, benefit from a safe and stable society. They don’t have to worry about their children being kidnapped or being carjacked at the traffic lights or paying for private security and bodyguards. In countries like Brazil, the Philippines and South Africa, these things are the norm. In Australia, the rich can feel part of society as opposed to bubblewrapped jetsetters. Our sense of fraternity does set us apart from many hierarchical, deeply entrenched class-based societies, and it’s worth every cent. This is not a leftard argument, it’s deeply conservative. The rich have a duty. Before the rise of neoliberalism, this was called nobless oblige. Today, we’ve replaced this with taxation, but the moral obligation still exists. |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by longweekend58 on Dec 26th, 2014 at 7:28am Melanias purse wrote on Dec 26th, 2014 at 12:21am:
MUTUAL benefits... your words. that means EVERYONE should benefit not just the badly-named 'poor' |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by John Smith on Dec 26th, 2014 at 8:07am longweekend58 wrote on Dec 26th, 2014 at 7:28am:
maybe you should have kept reading :D :D |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by Swagman on Dec 26th, 2014 at 8:22am Melanias purse wrote on Dec 26th, 2014 at 12:21am:
:D |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by Redneck on Dec 26th, 2014 at 8:29am
Take them when you get them Swaggie, they dont come very often!
;D ;D |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by longweekend58 on Dec 26th, 2014 at 8:34am John Smith wrote on Dec 26th, 2014 at 8:07am:
I read quite fine. it is understanding that is so commonly missed on here. |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by Swagman on Dec 26th, 2014 at 8:41am Melanias purse wrote on Dec 26th, 2014 at 12:21am:
....and John Smith's wrong ;) |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by John Smith on Dec 26th, 2014 at 9:37am longweekend58 wrote on Dec 26th, 2014 at 8:34am:
Is that why you ignored the sections on the benefits to the rich? you didn't understand it :D :D :D....OK! Good of you to admit it! |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by John Smith on Dec 26th, 2014 at 9:38am Swagman wrote on Dec 26th, 2014 at 8:41am:
Impossible .... ask my wife, I'm never wrong. I've already outlined a few benefits for the rich for you Swag, Karnal outlined a few more ... what was wrong? |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by Andrei.Hicks on Dec 26th, 2014 at 9:53am
Strange innit that a Labor Government always took stuff away from us.
Never helped us. Talk about govern for the working class. |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by The Grappler (50 shades of) on Dec 26th, 2014 at 10:14am
Ah, yes - the old pork barrel for those without need while reducing the rest under the despotism of poverty.
Governments have an obligation to govern for all - not just their mates or their own self-selected 'class' or whatever. Where's your flowdown so the peasants can benefit from your easy ride? |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by Swagman on Dec 26th, 2014 at 10:30am John Smith wrote on Dec 26th, 2014 at 9:38am:
Why? Due to the fact that the govt takes a huge proportion of the income in tax and returns a smidgeon in rebate from the so called rich. That is just shuffling deck chairs, smoke and mirrors, slight of hand stuff. Not a benefit but a con. If you want to gauge what society segment benefits the most then simply consider the effect of closing down Centerlink and halting all social security payments. Pensions, FTB, Newstart etc. Who would that effect the most? :-? The so-called rich receive nothing from this source. This alone is evidence that the 'strugglers' of society are the primary beneficiaries of all taxation including those evil regressive taxes. Therefore the greater the success of the rich the more tax they pay and the greater the benefit received by the 'strugglers'. Trickle down is not a myth and the GST is not a boogie man... ;D |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by longweekend58 on Dec 26th, 2014 at 12:48pm John Smith wrote on Dec 26th, 2014 at 9:37am:
because there was no such section. there are NO benefits the rich get that everybody does not also enjoy. |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by The Grappler (50 shades of) on Dec 26th, 2014 at 1:43pm Swagman wrote on Dec 26th, 2014 at 10:30am:
So you advocate that only the rich should be allowed to live? |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by Karnal on Dec 26th, 2014 at 1:53pm Andrei.Hicks wrote on Dec 26th, 2014 at 9:53am:
Strange that you were a British citizen the whole time the Labor government was in. Innit. |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by John Smith on Dec 26th, 2014 at 1:54pm longweekend58 wrote on Dec 26th, 2014 at 12:48pm:
in theory maybe, but reality isn't quite that simple ... how many people on $30k a year can afford to pay extra into their super? How many can afford to pay real accountants to find loop holes rather than go to a shopping centre tax centre? how many use shares, trusts etc to minimise tax? how many can afford to invest in property so as to get some tax benefits ?.. sure they're allowed to, but thats like telling telling someone they own Saturn ... whoopdedooo :D :D :D keep your head up your arse longie, you seem happier that way |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by John Smith on Dec 26th, 2014 at 1:55pm Swagman wrote on Dec 26th, 2014 at 10:30am:
yes, I know your logic Swag ... if it goes to an unemployed it's a benefit, if it goes to the rich it's not a benefit but a rebate :D :D :D :D :D Keep it up! ::) |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by Karnal on Dec 26th, 2014 at 1:59pm Swagman wrote on Dec 26th, 2014 at 10:30am:
Exactly. You’re on fire today, Swagman. "The rich" don’t qualify for the dole. One thing "the rich" do get is subsidized private schools. This alone costs the budget a few bil. |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by John Smith on Dec 26th, 2014 at 2:02pm Melanias purse wrote on Dec 26th, 2014 at 1:59pm:
you could give him examples until you're blue in the face, he'll still deny it |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by Karnal on Dec 26th, 2014 at 2:26pm John Smith wrote on Dec 26th, 2014 at 2:02pm:
So far, we’ve got subsidized private schools, untaxed income that goes into super - what else? How about negative gearing? There are plenty of others. If we got rid of these perks, we’d be in surplus in two years time. |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by John Smith on Dec 26th, 2014 at 2:32pm
you forgot private health ...
one of my favourites that I get a lot of in my job ... i often get interstate landlords phone me saying, '' john, I'll be up on the GC next week, can you tell the ATO that I came to see my property please'... 'of course, I know your busy and I trust that you're looking after it properly, so I won't really waste your time or bother the tenant ' their purpose for the call, so that they can claim the trip as a tax deduction :D :D :D they get a tax deductable holiday with their families, and can't be bothered taking out 30 mins of their holiday to even look at their property :D :D :D ... at least the poorer landlord always makes the extra effort and stops by to see the property |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by The Grappler (50 shades of) on Dec 26th, 2014 at 2:58pm John Smith wrote on Dec 26th, 2014 at 2:32pm:
Shhhh - you'll get the sack..... |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by John Smith on Dec 26th, 2014 at 3:09pm Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM wrote on Dec 26th, 2014 at 2:58pm:
I'm safe, I work for myself .... although the wife tends to disagree with that ;D ;D ;D |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by Karnal on Dec 26th, 2014 at 6:07pm
Ah yes, tax deductions. One of the many benefits of company tax, as opposed to income tax.
Still, we’re all equal, eh? |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by longweekend58 on Dec 26th, 2014 at 6:22pm Melanias purse wrote on Dec 26th, 2014 at 6:07pm:
you sure do struggle to make much sense at the best of time. |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by Karnal on Dec 26th, 2014 at 6:43pm longweekend58 wrote on Dec 26th, 2014 at 6:22pm:
I sure do, Longy. It’s not easy. Did you get good marks in sense as well? |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by longweekend58 on Dec 26th, 2014 at 6:57pm Melanias purse wrote on Dec 26th, 2014 at 6:43pm:
you are just dog-stupid. it is no more complex than that. |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by John Smith on Dec 26th, 2014 at 7:57pm longweekend58 wrote on Dec 26th, 2014 at 6:57pm:
you complain that you didn't understand, and then call him dog stupid because YOU don't understand? His comment made perfect sense to me . here's a possibility I bet you never considered ... could you maybe have not understood because it is YOU who is dog stupid? Maybe you can discuss it with your mates next time you go for a drink :D :D :D :D |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by Karnal on Dec 26th, 2014 at 10:08pm John Smith wrote on Dec 26th, 2014 at 7:57pm:
No, JS, I think Longy’s smart. He manages to forget his last post as soon as he’s posted it. If I posted such dumb things, I’d be smart enough to forget them too. |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by Swagman on Dec 26th, 2014 at 10:53pm Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM wrote on Dec 26th, 2014 at 1:43pm:
NO I don't advocate that. Please explain why you would think such a thing? :( |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by Swagman on Dec 26th, 2014 at 11:02pm Melanias purse wrote on Dec 26th, 2014 at 1:59pm:
You are just emphasizing your ignorance.... :D Private education actually subsidises Govt. Private education saves the tax-payer around $8.9 billion a year..... Source Quote:
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by Dnarever on Dec 26th, 2014 at 11:07pm Melanias purse wrote on Dec 26th, 2014 at 2:26pm:
Or as the topic shows had the Howard government not permanently given away a temporary flood of money in a boom period structurally undermining the budget we would have never been in deficit to begin with. |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by Swagman on Dec 26th, 2014 at 11:16pm John Smith wrote on Dec 26th, 2014 at 1:55pm:
You make it sound like I am wrong somehow Smithy? :-? A 'tax rebate' is a 'hand back' whilst a 'benefit' is a 'hand out' Takes a mite degree of perception mind you...... :D |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by Dnarever on Dec 26th, 2014 at 11:22pm Swagman wrote on Dec 26th, 2014 at 11:16pm:
So for someone who has paid tax for decades new start allowance is a hand back or a rebate ? |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by Swagman on Dec 26th, 2014 at 11:28pm Dnarever wrote on Dec 26th, 2014 at 11:22pm:
....both |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by Karnal on Dec 27th, 2014 at 12:04am Swagman wrote on Dec 26th, 2014 at 11:02pm:
Good propaganda from the private schools lobby, comrade. Those private school parents would never send their kids to state schools. They pay thousands a year to avoid doing so. It’s the same as the health insurance lobbies telling everyone they take the burden off the public hospital system, when in reality, people on private health insurance are placed in public hospitals all the time. I get the feeling you’re not "rich", Swagman. I doubt you’re on a high income, and I doubt you don’t pay for all these expensive private services yourself. My hunch is you’re an ordinary cog in the machine like the rest of us. I could be wrong, of course. Feel free to fill me in. It beats me why people defend rorts they themselves will never be entitled to, but that’s life, I guess. I’m not entitled to the welfare benefits I defend. According to you, I’m "the rich". The thing is, I know I’m an accident or a serious illness away from the disability pension and a life on welfare. We all are. I’ve met a few ex-high fliers who are in just this position today. As Tony Abbott would say, sh!t happens. |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by Soren on Dec 27th, 2014 at 12:28am Melanias purse wrote on Dec 27th, 2014 at 12:04am:
And it's not the government's job to shelter you from life, PB. |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by Karnal on Dec 27th, 2014 at 1:12am
Any port in a storm, old boy. We sheltered you.
Stool happens, no? |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by longweekend58 on Dec 27th, 2014 at 7:28am John Smith wrote on Dec 26th, 2014 at 7:57pm:
the direct comparison of company and income tax IS a stupid one. the deductions are altogether different as is the money stream. I would have thought you would know that in your job. |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by longweekend58 on Dec 27th, 2014 at 7:30am Dnarever wrote on Dec 26th, 2014 at 11:07pm:
a tad simplistic, don't you think? Perhaps if Rudd and Gillard had spent only money they had in stead of money they borrowed they likewise would have kept us in surplus. But the be fair, the GFC was a good reason to go into deficit, but the GFC has many years ago now and we are still in deficit, implying they didnt not spend in the short-term but put in place unfunded programs that we are still borrowing for to cover now. |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by St George of the Puissant HLT on Dec 28th, 2014 at 1:08am
We are still paying Costello’s unsustainable tax cuts and the huge Howard middle class welfare he put in the Budget.
Rudd at least responded promptly to the GFC—if he hadn’t we would have gone into recession and that would have cost the Budget much more. The Gillard/Swan govt cut swathes of Howard’s reckless spending from the Budget but the really big items are still untouched. Howard—a REALLY crap Treasurer and worse PM! |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by Dnarever on Dec 28th, 2014 at 6:38am longweekend58 wrote on Dec 27th, 2014 at 7:30am:
And you say that my position is simplistic, my position agrees with the international assesments and past Liberal leaders. Howard and Costello structurally set entrenched government spending at a level requiring the best economic income to continue indefinitely in order to stay afloat. The Australian economy returning to its normal parameters meant that the income level was insufficient to pay the bills. This is the root of our financial problem, unsustainable spending levels entrenched into the economic structure by Howard and co. They really believed that the good times would last forever and spent accordingly. When the economy was booming, John Howard significantly cut taxes for the rich. Now that the economy is struggling, the Abbott solution is to cut spending on the poor. Tax cuts primarily benefitting the high end put us where we are but to fix it we need sick people pay to see a doctor to cut universities support and charge students more. |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by St George of the Puissant HLT on Dec 28th, 2014 at 9:06am longweekend58 wrote on Dec 27th, 2014 at 7:30am:
A tad simplistic, don’t you think? If Rudd & Gillard had tried to keep the Budget in surplus there would have been high unemployment meaning income tax revenue would have plummeted and NewStart payments sky rocketed. Housing would have collapsed as the numerous unemployed could not keep up their mortgage payments and as a consequence at least one bank would have fallen over. No, running a deficit was the right thing to do and deficits are still the correct setting now. But we do need to undo the grave damage Howard & Costello did to the Budget and economy. |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by stryker on Dec 28th, 2014 at 9:09am Quote:
How can I be educated by some of most stupid people of this earth, ???? entertainment is what we should be prepared for instead of education by the DOPEY LEFT. ;D ;D ;D |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by SupositoryofWisdom on Dec 28th, 2014 at 10:13am stryder wrote on Dec 28th, 2014 at 9:09am:
When you get a bit older and mature it may start making sense to you. |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by John Smith on Dec 28th, 2014 at 10:15am longweekend58 wrote on Dec 27th, 2014 at 7:28am:
it wasn't a direct comparison longie, it was how the process itself is used for tax evasion purposes how many 'small buisnesses' form companies with them and their wife or kids as sole shareholders just for the tax benfits longie? Something not available to the PAYE earner ... I know, I've used the process myself for just that purpose. are you playing dumb for the sake of it or was it really that difficult for you? |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by John Smith on Dec 28th, 2014 at 10:17am stryder wrote on Dec 28th, 2014 at 9:09am:
the fact that this man is your hero says more about your stupidity than anyone else's |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by The Grappler (50 shades of) on Dec 28th, 2014 at 11:14am
I've worked on wages and as a contractor - contracting was far better in terms of tax benefits... you write off all your costs and your accountant does some massaging of figures to suit ATO standards - stay within the limits and they say nothing...
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by stryker on Dec 28th, 2014 at 11:17am
;D
John Smith wrote on Dec 28th, 2014 at 10:17am:
Some stupid left leaning idiotic person out there gave you a piece of his mind and you held on to it vigorously and became a very bitter person along the way, 8-) ;D |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by Swagman on Dec 28th, 2014 at 11:17am St George of the Garden wrote on Dec 28th, 2014 at 1:08am:
'We' as in the top 25% of taxpayers.....nothing new there |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by St George of the Puissant HLT on Dec 28th, 2014 at 11:24am
We as in the economy and all tax payers.
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by John Smith on Dec 28th, 2014 at 11:26am stryder wrote on Dec 28th, 2014 at 11:17am:
bitter? not at all .... I've quite enjoyed the last year or so, watching all the rightard squirm and wriggle like drowning fish every time Abbott opens his mouth ;D ;D ;D |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by stryker on Dec 28th, 2014 at 11:33am John Smith wrote on Dec 28th, 2014 at 11:26am:
Oh now tell me that isnt dripping with bitterness there, but thats ok, you can level with me. |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by John Smith on Dec 28th, 2014 at 11:36am
bitterness? where? is that a rightie thing? to laugh and be bitter at the same time?
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by stryker on Dec 28th, 2014 at 11:54am John Smith wrote on Dec 28th, 2014 at 11:36am:
You do that better than any righties on here. ;) |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by John Smith on Dec 28th, 2014 at 11:55am stryder wrote on Dec 28th, 2014 at 11:54am:
sounds to me like you're the bitter one ! I guess you must really be dissapointed with the way Abbott turned out to be such a failure ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by Swagman on Dec 28th, 2014 at 12:01pm Melanias purse wrote on Dec 27th, 2014 at 12:04am:
I think you will find that the public hospitals actually get paid by the Private Health Funds when they accommodate a private patient. These fees enable the public hospitals to purchase additional equipment etc. In other words it saves the tax-payer money just as private schools save the tax-payer money. Melanias purse wrote on Dec 27th, 2014 at 12:04am:
If I was rich I'd have better things to do than swap banter with you rusted on Truebelievers day in day out...... ;D What does it matter anyway? :-? |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by stryker on Dec 28th, 2014 at 12:06pm John Smith wrote on Dec 28th, 2014 at 11:55am:
Not at all, I accept the reality that he is failing at the moment, and that its his fault for other reasons. But lets wait and see what happens when Bill shorten actually opens his mouth and spells out his POLICIES. ;D ;D |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by John Smith on Dec 28th, 2014 at 12:08pm stryder wrote on Dec 28th, 2014 at 12:06pm:
why would he? He has no need to do anything other than sit back and let Abbott self destruct. Maybe the day before the election, if he's feeling generous, he may release something, afterall it worked for Abbott :D :D :D |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by Karnal on Dec 28th, 2014 at 12:45pm Swagman wrote on Dec 28th, 2014 at 12:01pm:
It matters because you appear to be peddling a barrow here. If we were just having an impartial discussion on who pays ALL the income tax, no problem. We’d look at the figures and come to a conclusion. You’ve presented very compelling figures, but you’re trying to skew them in the other direction. You’re presenting an argument that the rich pay all the tax when your figures show otherwise. Why would anyone other than someone who aspires to be rich do that? Not even Longy claims to be rich, and he’s come around. He now knows who pays the bulk of income tax in this country. After all, you’ve shown him the data. |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by Karnal on Dec 28th, 2014 at 1:05pm Swagman wrote on Dec 28th, 2014 at 12:01pm:
Public hospitals don’t charge anyone for using Accident & Emergency. Private hospitals don’t provide this service. You’ll find very few private hospitals outside the major cities. And even if public hospitals did receive funding from private insurance (like the US), how would this take the burden off the public system? Private schools don’t save taxpayers money when they’re funded by taxpayers. The elite private schools receive as much funding for students as state schools. How are any of these private systems saving taxpayers anything? It’s just the government putting the same funds into the private sector. This is why the Liberal argument is about "choice", not cost-cutting. It’s the lobby groups who peddle the cost-cutting idea, but studies show private health services cost more, not less. They have to. They’re profit-based. Someone has to pay for all those commissions, marketing, advertising, lobbying, and yes, shareholder profits. Health is one of the biggest profit areas after financial services. Private education is a little different. Schools are not generally profit-based. Teachers are paid about the same under the independent awards. But of course they cost more. They charge things called fees. How could a system that charges both government and consumers be more cost-effective? |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by Swagman on Dec 28th, 2014 at 1:12pm Melanias purse wrote on Dec 28th, 2014 at 12:45pm:
"All"? The message is that the majority of tax is paid by a minority of people. The figures show this. My major argument in this thread has been that the so-called 'poor' are the major beneficiary of taxation any type including regressive taxes (trickle down works) |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by Dnarever on Dec 28th, 2014 at 1:23pm stryder wrote on Dec 28th, 2014 at 9:09am:
Actually it is the opinion of international economists supported by an x Liberal leader. The most stupid people on earth - economists and x Liberal leaders ? |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by Dnarever on Dec 28th, 2014 at 1:26pm Swagman wrote on Dec 28th, 2014 at 1:12pm:
argument in this thread has been that the so-called 'poor' are the major beneficiary of taxation No that is a different topic started by LW, this one is about the numbers showing that the Howard government had caused our economic problems by giving back excessive tax cuts based on an unrealistic expectation that the good times would continue forever. |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by Swagman on Dec 28th, 2014 at 1:29pm Melanias purse wrote on Dec 28th, 2014 at 1:05pm:
And this is relevant because....? Melanias purse wrote on Dec 28th, 2014 at 1:05pm:
Arbitrarily if the cost of a public hospital bed if $500 per day. If it's filled by a private patient the hospital gets $500 off the private health fund and not from the Govt. The Govt (aka the Taxpayer) saves $500. This $500 dollars can then be used for something else such as better equipment etc. That's how it takes the burden off the public system. Melanias purse wrote on Dec 28th, 2014 at 1:05pm:
Not from all sources of Govt they don't. Melanias purse wrote on Dec 28th, 2014 at 1:05pm:
A naïve argument. Private school kids get about 0.40c in the dollar Govt funding. Therefore the Govt is saving 60% on the public cost of educating every private school child. The Govt would have to find this extra 0.60c in the dollar if there were no private schools. :-? |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by Dnarever on Dec 28th, 2014 at 1:32pm Swagman wrote on Dec 28th, 2014 at 1:29pm:
Wow the perfect excuse for an increase to private funds costing us all more for the same service if we are lucky. |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by Swagman on Dec 28th, 2014 at 1:38pm Dnarever wrote on Dec 28th, 2014 at 1:32pm:
Who is 'us'? The tax-payer? Private patients are tax-payers too. They pay the medicare levy. |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by Karnal on Dec 28th, 2014 at 2:12pm Quote:
This is relevant because most hospital admissions are triaged through A & E. |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by Karnal on Dec 28th, 2014 at 2:18pm Swagman wrote on Dec 28th, 2014 at 1:29pm:
Private schools might get 40 cents in the dollar of the fees parents pay, but they receive the same funding per student across the board. Some schools actually receive more government funding than state schools. Kings in Sydney is one such school. This is why the Gonski reforms are important. At present, there is no rhyme or reason to school funding. Much of it depends on the electorate parents live in, or their influence (like the prestigious Kings school). Labor and Liberal governments are both guilty of pork barreling school funding. Menzies started it with the Catholics, and Whitlam continued the tradition with Anglican schools. Successive governments have added more and more. |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by Swagman on Dec 28th, 2014 at 2:37pm Melanias purse wrote on Dec 28th, 2014 at 2:18pm:
Doesn't alter the fact that if all private schools suddenly ceased operations tomorrow, it would cost the Govt billions more (than it currently funds private schools) to educate the kids that attended these schools. :-? Private health is similar. |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by Karnal on Dec 28th, 2014 at 5:41pm Swagman wrote on Dec 28th, 2014 at 2:37pm:
Not if you read my post Read it again. |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by Dnarever on Dec 28th, 2014 at 6:18pm Swagman wrote on Dec 28th, 2014 at 1:38pm:
If we are talking about price increases for private health funds who do you think would be impacted ? In this scenario the government get to save money by switching the cost to the private funds and in turn the government will then approve justified increases to private fund rates. The government save some money the private funds make some money and it all comes out of our pockets, there is no good news here for the average family. |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by Swagman on Dec 28th, 2014 at 7:15pm Melanias purse wrote on Dec 28th, 2014 at 5:41pm:
Which one?. |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by Karnal on Dec 28th, 2014 at 7:40pm
Read dnarever’s below to get the big picture, Swagman.
Funding private health and private schools are merely responding to high influence pressure groups - the kind of deep pocketed lobbies like big mining who nearly brought the first Rudd government down before JuLiar did it for them. Private health funds do nothing to take the burden from the public system. How many private hospitals are there in Australia? How many patients with health insurance even go to private hospitals when they get sick or have elective surgery? Public health is the backbone of the health system in Australia. Government rebates for private health funds do nothing except move money around the sector and make a handful of people rich in the process. |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by Swagman on Dec 28th, 2014 at 9:06pm Melanias purse wrote on Dec 28th, 2014 at 7:40pm:
Leftist cynicism. Even Labor politicians know how much private schools and private health saves the Govt. Melanias purse wrote on Dec 28th, 2014 at 7:40pm:
You'll need to elaborate on this statement. If just one private patient uses a private hospital then the public system is spared the cost of one patient. Melanias purse wrote on Dec 28th, 2014 at 7:40pm:
Quite a few. 43% of the total according to the table. Source What would happen to the cost of the public system if all the private hospitals ceased operations? |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by Karnal on Dec 28th, 2014 at 10:06pm
Nice use of data, Swagman. You’ve proven there are quite a few private hospitals. And yes, if they weren’t there I imagine they would put stress on the public hospital system.
But it depends where they are and how they’re used. It also depends who funds them. I don’t think there should be no private hospitals, but I don’t think they should be funded by the state through health insurance rebates. If people want private cover, they should pay for it. If anyone needs life saving health treatment, they should get it. We live in a country where we can afford this. We live in a country where we can easily support 24 million people, and largely, we do. My argument on school funding is not leftist cynicism. Menzies funded Catholic schools in a deal to get Catholic DLP support in the senate. In doing so, he kept Labor out of government for a generation. Whitlam out-Menzied Menzies by getting middle class protestants on board and extending Catholic school funding to all. He allied the middle class intelligensia to the Labor cause and won the 72 "it’s time" election, and in doing so captured the middle ground for the ALP. The effect of all this was to create an ever-increasing welfare state that the Abbott government is now grappling with. It may be cynicism, but it’s politics. |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by Dnarever on Dec 29th, 2014 at 7:27am Swagman wrote on Dec 28th, 2014 at 2:37pm:
I suppose that I should comment when you are right. |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by Swagman on Dec 29th, 2014 at 7:31am Melanias purse wrote on Dec 28th, 2014 at 10:06pm:
It's not free. They do pay for it. Government backs private schools and private health because by doing so it saves money. Lots of money. The money it saves enables Govt to fund other areas of its responsibilities. Melanias purse wrote on Dec 28th, 2014 at 10:06pm:
Correction, we live in a country that 'used' to be able to afford this. http://www.abc.net.au/news/2010-02-01/ageing-population-dragging-australia-into-the-red/316800 |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by Karnal on Dec 29th, 2014 at 7:59am
How could rebating a health system based on profit save money?
What do they do that’s any better? Do they have better medicine? Better medical training? Cleaner hospitals? Better patients? What? |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by Swagman on Dec 29th, 2014 at 8:08am Melanias purse wrote on Dec 29th, 2014 at 7:59am:
It saves the Govt money because privately insured patients in private hospitals (as previously pointed out) are not using up a public hospital bed. It is therefore to the Govt's benefit to have as many people privately insured as possible. A rebate is an incentive to do something that the Govt wants you to do. Arguably, what the Govt loses in tax revenue providing the rebate is more than offset by the reduced health costs savings. |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by Dnarever on Dec 29th, 2014 at 8:11am Melanias purse wrote on Dec 29th, 2014 at 7:59am:
The rebate amount is not 1 to 1, taking the subsidy for a bed out of the private system would not fund a bed in the public system. Private hospitals pay a lot of their own costs and are mostly subsidised by patient charges. Forcing all these people into public care would cost a lot more than would be saved even if the infrastructure was available which it isn't. There would instantly be a shortage of beds, wards, hospitals, operating theatres, staff etc. The additional cost would be many $ billion. What do they do that’s any better? Do they have better medicine? Better medical training? Cleaner hospitals? Some may have access to better equipment and do tend to be more pristine environments. But in reality that are mostly not as well skilled across the board and often offload really sick patients to the public system for treatment that they can not provide. |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by John Smith on Dec 29th, 2014 at 9:31am Swagman wrote on Dec 28th, 2014 at 2:37pm:
If govt. halted subsidies to private schools and hospitals, a great many of them would still remain open ... there is no way the rich are going to send their kids to school with the riff raff. You still haven't convinced me that the savings outweight the benefits ... your argument is that the rich pay medicare too, fine, but for them we have to have two hospitals being funded for their use, one for their botox injections and enemas and the other for their serious illness .. it's not like the govt. can close down a hospital because they already subsidise one private hospital in the same area |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by Swagman on Dec 29th, 2014 at 10:04am John Smith wrote on Dec 29th, 2014 at 9:31am:
No Smithy they wouldn't all close. I'm sure your comrades in the Labor party would benefit greatly (not) if they went to the election with a policy of eliminating all private school funding and private health insurance rebates. ;D |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by Dnarever on Dec 29th, 2014 at 10:35am Swagman wrote on Dec 29th, 2014 at 10:04am:
The vast majority of private schools are catholic schools and such which service the general community mostly. The majority of their students could not afford to go to these schools with no subsidy and many would close or very significantly down size and become only for the better off to attend which rather defeats the purpose by creating more schools exclusively for the more affluent. Maybe the equation is a little too generous to private schools at present but it needs to be in place. |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by John Smith on Dec 29th, 2014 at 11:10am Swagman wrote on Dec 29th, 2014 at 10:04am:
we both know they wouldn't ... not sure why you keep pretending the labor are against subsidies to private education and health, they're just as bad as the libs in that department. ... having said that, I still disagree with it. I can only wish labor had the balls to take it to an election |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by Swagman on Dec 29th, 2014 at 2:34pm Quote:
This thread so far has been the complete opposite.... :D |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by John Smith on Dec 29th, 2014 at 7:28pm Swagman wrote on Dec 29th, 2014 at 2:34pm:
Just because you're beyond learning, I think longie learnt something or two ... sure, he'll never admit it, but I bet he'll never claim the rich pay all the tax again ;D ;D ;D |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by Dnarever on Dec 29th, 2014 at 7:34pm Swagman wrote on Dec 29th, 2014 at 2:34pm:
Mainly because the righties keep taking it off topic. |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by Karnal on Dec 29th, 2014 at 7:38pm John Smith wrote on Dec 29th, 2014 at 7:28pm:
We can thank Swagman for that. I’ll be buggered if I’m going to sit around Googling tax graphs. Someone has to do it. |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by Team Froggie on Dec 29th, 2014 at 7:51pm Dnarever wrote on Dec 29th, 2014 at 7:34pm:
Not only that, but not one of them could tell me just how women who were earning $150,000 were entitled to Abbott's PPL because they were not 'rich', but suddenly became 'rich' when they came to be included in the top percentile of tax payers. And people with incomes of $80,000+ also found themselves in the 'rich' bracket..... :D :D :D |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by Karnal on Dec 29th, 2014 at 8:00pm Lobo wrote on Dec 29th, 2014 at 7:51pm:
Yes. It’s nice to have Swagman and Longy looking out for our perks. |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by Swagman on Dec 29th, 2014 at 8:04pm Lobo wrote on Dec 29th, 2014 at 7:51pm:
That's because I don't agree with tax payer funded PPL full stop. It should be a work entitlement similar to long service (have some form of time qualification) Lobo wrote on Dec 29th, 2014 at 7:51pm:
Depends on your vantage point. If you're on $25k pa someone on $80kpa would appear rich. The Govt seems to think it's $88k as that's when the Medicare surcharge kicks in.... LW's argument revolves around tax paid net of 'extra' benefits. It is a valid argument. |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by Team Froggie on Dec 29th, 2014 at 8:22pm Swagman wrote on Dec 29th, 2014 at 8:04pm:
Guess I'll have to wait for longy to get back. You can't have it both ways. |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by John Smith on Dec 30th, 2014 at 9:31am Swagman wrote on Dec 29th, 2014 at 8:04pm:
how about picking an amount and leaving it there, rather than changing it with every policy .... if 80k is rich, don't claim 150k is poor when they're talking about cuts ... afterall, you are really concerned about the deficit aren't you? It's wasn't just an excuse to bitch about labor, was it? |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by Swagman on Dec 30th, 2014 at 9:43am John Smith wrote on Dec 30th, 2014 at 9:31am:
Seriously, the Debt levy should have started at $80K (for singles) My message about tax is simply that the main tax burden is on a minority of people which has to be acknowledged. The only sustainable way to fund the bloating budget expenditure is to increase taxes (both income and GST) and start charging token fees for services. The increases should be small but across the board and all demographics but brought in small increments over time so as to have minimal effect on demand for G & S. Tax increase would have to accompany a significant interest rate cut. I don't disagree that the ('rich') should be able to afford a tax increase but dropping it all on them is wrong. Token fees like the co-payment could have been easier to sell when the Downtrodden in their petty jealousies actually see that the rich are copping a whallop. That is what Hockey & Co have managed badly :( With tax increases on rich reform on IR removing penalty rates etc would be required as well. Everyone would have to give way |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by Karnal on Dec 30th, 2014 at 10:17am Swagman wrote on Dec 30th, 2014 at 9:43am:
We know it’s your "message", Swagman. The point is you’ve proven it wrong. Those on incomes between $38,000 and $180,000 contribute 70% of income tax - the main tax burden. Income tax, as you have also shown, is the largest source of federal taxes. If your message and your figures are so far out of whack, it dampens the rest of your argument - like the one on penalty rates (which has nothing to do with taxation). It makes you come across as a flagwaver for some other agenda. This, of course, is exactly the problem the Abbott government is in. They don’t want to raise company taxes because they fear pushing business offshore. They can raise the GST, but this money simply goes to the states. All they have is income tax, which is against their policy to raise as well. It’s also against their economic theory, which holds that you get more revenue if you lower taxes. Bush, of course, tried this in the states and ended up with a deficit in the trillions. Oh, and it’s also the Libs’ economic theory to run a surplus. Looks like Mr Abbott can’t win, doesn’t it? Looks like the only way to achieve victory is to change the "message". Good propaganda, comrade. |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by John Smith on Dec 30th, 2014 at 10:53am Melanias purse wrote on Dec 30th, 2014 at 10:17am:
and this is the whole problem with the rhetoric from the liberal party ... they say one thing, do another .. after all their complaining about budget deficit, they spend every dollar they cut in spending on NEW areas .. they cut taxes when revenue is falling, increase spending when complaining about spending to much ... they don't appear to have a clue |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by Karnal on Dec 30th, 2014 at 11:30am John Smith wrote on Dec 30th, 2014 at 10:53am:
Under Howard, they governed through a mining boom and got lucky. They pretended they kept interest rates down, when this is the job of the RBA. Previously under Fraser, they trashed the economy. They kept spending despite recession and huge terms of trade problems. It was left to Hawke and Keating to reform the economy, which paved the way for the Howard government’s lucky streak. The difference between Rudd/Gillard and Abbott is that the former governments had a plan. They stuck to their guns. They rolled out the NBN. They had a plan to rationalise school funding through Gonski. They had a plan to get more people with disabilities into the workforce through the NDIS. These were all economic reforms. We are at the end of a mining boom and need to get other sectors up and running. Abbott’s plan is to axe the carbon and mining taxes - that’s it. He’s done. But wait, there’s more. He now has plans to make massive cuts to health, education and welfare, but put this money into other areas. If the Abbott government had a plan all along, they didn’t do very well at explaining it, as Hockey and Abbott have now conceded. All Rudd and Gillard ever did was explain their plan. Constantly. They were criticised for being all talk, and in many cases they were. Most of their plans had problems being implimented. Unlike the current government, however, they were all implimented. They achieved support for their plans in a minority government. This alone shows excellent negotiating skills. Even Bob Katter had good things to say about Gillard. Mind you, Abbott has quietly done some important trade deals with China and Japan. These deals are important, and the Libs would trumpet them more if they weren’t scared of putting the National Party’s noses out of joint. The Libs have backed themselves into a corner by opposing Labor as high-taxing spendthrifts, when taxing and spending is the only thing that will put the economy on track again. This is the message of discontented ex-Nationals like Bob Katter, and it’s popular in the bush. If it involves spending on energy reforms like renewables, it will be popular in the city too. If the Libs want to move from being an opposition to a government, they need a plan. They also need to adjust their ideology of austerity if they want to turn the economy around. This ideology worked well in boom times, it does not work well now. It worked well when the Libs were in opposition and didn’t need to make any unpopular cuts. Politically, this won’t work now. Essentially, the Libs are falling on their own sword. Their chickens are coming home to roost. They could turn things around, but it would raise the obvious question of what the Liberal Party truly stands for. And Abbott and Hockey are not up to this task. |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by John Smith on Jan 10th, 2015 at 2:32pm Melanias purse wrote on Dec 30th, 2014 at 11:30am:
the problem is that we haven't seen the fine print ... did he negotiate good terms or did he simply concede to their demands? hearing stories such as japan free to sell whatever they want to us but aussie manufacturers are not free to sell in Japan doesn't inspire a lot of confidence that he negotiated a good deal. I suspect he simply agreed to their demands for the headline value. |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by Karnal on Jan 10th, 2015 at 11:44pm John Smith wrote on Jan 10th, 2015 at 2:32pm:
China and Japan are manufacturers. Removing tariffs and importing more brings down prices. Toyota’s already advertising free trade deal discounts on cars. Sure, we don’t know the fine print - I don’t, anyway. But these deals are important, as are other high level talks with China and Japan. It signals our greater integration into the region, which is emerging to become the next economic powerhouse. I don’t know the details, but this is the policy of both major parties and is supported by recent White Paper on the Asian Century. It’s the major foreign policy theme of the last 30 years. We aren’t in the British Empire anymore. We need Asia, and Abbott can be credited for being pragmatic enough to recognise this and get the job done. On this front, he is proving to be quite at odds with the views of John Winston Howard. |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by Andrei.Hicks on Jan 10th, 2015 at 11:57pm
If you want to integrate into Asia, good luck to you.
You'll sure need it. |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by Karnal on Jan 11th, 2015 at 12:16am Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jan 10th, 2015 at 11:57pm:
Good luck if we don’t. Prior to the Hawke/Keating governments, Australia was rapidly becoming a banana republic. When Britain joined the EC in the early 70s, that was it for Australian exports. The oil shocks nearly finished us off. And the Libs under Fraser did nothing. The Libs under the Howard opposition complained about the rate of Asian immigration. Today, Australia is a totally different country. Demographically, almost 50% of us were born overseas or have at least one foreign born parent. Including Boers. The story of the Australian economy of the past 30 years is almost solely about its trade with Asia, from mining, agriculture and education exports to cheap East Asian manufactured imports. The cost of cars, whitegoods, household goods, building materials, clothing, and pretty much everything else is far cheaper than at any time in Australia’s history. Even the poorest Australians now fill their houses with cheap stuff, almost all of it made in China. We can’t possibly ignore the source of our goods, or the destination of our exports. The source of our labour - and our capital - is Asia. The other part of the story is easily available credit, but I’ll save that one for another day. |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by John Smith on Jan 11th, 2015 at 9:47am Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jan 10th, 2015 at 11:57pm:
you seen a lot of trade with the UK lately? |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by Andrei.Hicks on Jan 11th, 2015 at 5:47pm John Smith wrote on Jan 11th, 2015 at 9:47am:
We are the fastest growing economy in Europe. Still if you were to chuck your lot in with the Asians... |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by John Smith on Jan 11th, 2015 at 7:03pm Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jan 11th, 2015 at 5:47pm:
fastest growing in a sinking ship ... you should be proud .... you want to try answer the question now? |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by philperth2010 on Jan 11th, 2015 at 8:38pm longweekend58 wrote on Dec 21st, 2014 at 5:12pm:
It would be cheaper to cut superannuation tax concessions altogether and give the pension to everyone instead of allowing the wealthy to use super as a tax avoidance scheme.....If the wealthy were not allowed to horde millions in superannuation and made to pay tax on their income they would be forced to invest their profits instead of leaving their money in tax havens that have become superannuation accounts.....Howard and Costello screwed the nation to buy votes during a once in a lifetime boom.....Now we have seen the back of the boom Hockey and Abbott want the poor to pay the price for poor policy....Wankers!!! >:( >:( >:( |
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Title: Re: Prepare to be educated righties Post by John Smith on Jan 11th, 2015 at 9:11pm philperth2010 wrote on Jan 11th, 2015 at 8:38pm:
i think they should give the pension to EVERYONE (even Gina) if you've worked and paid taxes all your life, you should get it .. and it shouldn't be reduced if you want to keep earning by working part time. |
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