Australia, like all other modern, western nations, is supposedly a secular democracy. What that means is that people are protected by our Constitution to enjoy freedom of religion. They can believe in whatever they want, including the flying spaghetti monster, who wears the holy colander. Being a secular democracy also means that we have universal freedom from religion. Our governments are not supposed to formulate policies based on religious doctrines and agendas and religious groups and organizations should not be treated preferentially. That part still seems to present a problem to our and other western governments unfortunately.

I am not a religious person and I absolutely believe that secularism is the only way forward for civilized societies. I most certainly have a problem with people who first and foremost identify themselves through their religion and seek to claim special treatment and exemptions on that basis.

Islam is as interesting to me as all other religions - i.e. not at all. I am well traveled and know that the best countries in the world are those that diligently uphold secularism and where the majority of citizens do not identify with any kind of religion. The worst countries haven't managed to evolve. There religion is still integral to politics and every aspect of peoples' lives.

Like the other two Abrahamic religions, Islam borrows heavily from ancient religions and tries to pass others' intellectual insights and achievements off as its own. It most certainly doesn't encourage its followers to think intelligently, critically and independently, but demands total submission and obedience. The overt practice of those three skills in an Islamic country and in public, will likely get one killed. Churchill summed up Islam very well and Christopher Hitchens has given us food for thought on Islam as well as all other religions. Both can be researched on the net easily.

I am all for everyone's religious freedom, just keep it to yourselves please, all of it. Thank you.

http://www.ozpolitic.com/wiki/index.php?title=Islam_and_Australian_values

So whats the question?

Australia's secular values?  You mean the values presently under attack from the Conservative Christian Religious Right?  The war on science from the ilLiberal Party that would rather spend more money on putting Christian evangalical chaplains in schools than keep useful scientists employed at the CSIRO?  Who'd rather give more money to the fossil fuel magnates than spend it on Climate Change?   ;D ;D ;D :D :D :D ;D ;D ;D ;D

valleyboy wrote on Dec 1^st, 2014 at 11:45pm:

The worst countries haven't managed to evolve. There religion is still integral to politics and every aspect of peoples' lives.

An extremely ill-thought out statement - The Soviet Union, the entire Eastern Block, North Korea, Baathist Iraq and Syria - just a sample of the many thoroughly corrupt, brutal, anti-freedom regimes in the last 50 years - and every one of them either atheist or irreligious.

Have there been any Muslim countries during this period Gandalf? Or were they all western puppets?

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2014 at 3:25pm:

valleyboy wrote on Dec 1st, 2014 at 11:45pm: The worst countries haven't managed to evolve. There religion is still integral to politics and every aspect of peoples' lives. An extremely ill-thought out statement - The Soviet Union, the entire Eastern Block, North Korea, Baathist Iraq and Syria - just a sample of the many thoroughly corrupt, brutal, anti-freedom regimes in the last 50 years - and every one of them either atheist or irreligious.

Every one of them atheist or irreligious?  Really?  Must be a parallel universe thing.

ColdFact wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2014 at 7:06pm:

Every one of them atheist or irreligious?  Really?  Must be a parallel universe thing.

Which one of Soviet Union, the entire Eastern Block, North Korea, Baathist Iraq and Syria (thats Baathist Iraq and Baathist Syria) do you think were not atheist or irreligious? I guess North Korea is like its own religion...

freediver wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2014 at 6:37pm:

Have there been any Muslim countries during this period Gandalf? Or were they all western puppets?

Sure, a country that has a majority of muslims is a muslim country. Plenty of them.

So Baathist Iraq is not a Muslim country?

But Kurdistan is?

Baathist Iraq was a muslim country - I never said it wasn't.

Having an irreligious regime doesn't stop a muslim country being a muslim country.

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2014 at 7:41pm:

Baathist Iraq was a muslim country - I never said it wasn't. Having an irreligious regime doesn't stop a muslim country being a muslim country.

What then makes an Islamic country?

Have there been any 'Muslim regimes' during this period Gandalf? Or were they all western puppets?

freediver wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2014 at 8:50pm:

Have there been any 'Muslim regimes' during this period Gandalf? Or were they all western puppets?

This was one of FD’s favourite Abu questions.

Ah, the good old days...

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2014 at 7:11pm:

ColdFact wrote on Dec 2nd, 2014 at 7:06pm: Every one of them atheist or irreligious?  Really?  Must be a parallel universe thing. Which one of Soviet Union, the entire Eastern Block, North Korea, Baathist Iraq and Syria (thats Baathist Iraq and Baathist Syria) do you think were not atheist or irreligious? I guess North Korea is like its own religion...

So the correction is Baathist Iraq and Baathist Syria?

Putting pedanticism aside,  and since the majority of these regimes no longer exist, I think the poster is under some misconception that a chunk of Middle Eastern countries were under Sharia Law, when they were in fact secular.  Probably a result of Western propaganda -- war on terror and all that guff -- so the US and its allies could put boots on the ground to crush the mythical threat of Islam -- for monetary gain.

My simplistic state doesn't seem to exist...anywhere!
Believe what you want. Pray to whatever deity you wish. Build whatever church or place of worship you want. Teach your children whatever you want. Respect the religious beliefs and practices of others.

But leave me, my family and children, my country, our political system -- from mainstream to grass roots -- and our schools...ALONE.
Break my laws and -- a little bit like Sharia law -- you get the ol' hot lead enima.

valleyboy wrote on Dec 1^st, 2014 at 11:45pm:

Australia, like all other modern, western nations, is supposedly a secular democracy. What that means is that people are protected by our Constitution to enjoy freedom of religion.

Nobody, including 'the moslem', should be afforded the right to hide behind a general 'right of freedom of religion' as the means to seek to hide and disguise and deny his intent to seek to violently impose ISLAM's worldview upon others.

And 'the moslem' ['a follower of ISLAM'] does have the intent to violently impose his worldview upon others, while claiming that his only intent, is to exercise his 'human right' to practice his 'freedom of religion', in a nation like Australia.

!!!!!




NATIONS LIKE AUSTRALIA OFFER 'FREEDOM OF RELIGION' TO 'THE MOSLEM' [i.e. THE FOLLOWERS OF ISLAM].

AND WHAT DOES ISLAM OFFER IN RETURN, TO US [TO THOSE WHO DO NOT BELIEVE AS 'THE MOSLEM' BELIEVES] ?




IMAGE...
http://www.raymondibrahim.com/_admin/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/129.jpeg

Sheikh Yassir al-Burhami



Quote:

How Circumstance Dictates Islamic Behavior January 18, 2012 Preach Peace When Weak, Wage War When Strong "...all notions of peace with non-Muslims are based on circumstance. When Muslims are weak, they should be peaceful; when strong, they should go on the offensive."

Sheikh Yassir al-Burhami - an ISLAMIC scholar and Egyptian Salafi leader
http://www.raymondibrahim.com/from-the-arab-world/how-circumstance-dictates-islamic-behavior/








Quote:

ISLAM - A CULTURE OF A SEETHING AND CONCEALED HOSTILITY TOWARDS THE AUSTRALIA COMMUNITY And there is ample evidence to demonstrate that many, many moslems who are living in Australia are committed to Jihad [Jihad = = religious fighting, in Allah's cause] against non-moslems.... [quote] 'Whosoever dies without participating in an expedition (jihad) nor having the intention to do so, dies on a branch of hypocrisy,'

.....written by Mohamed Elomar, an Australian moslem.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2632768/Brisbane-woman-charged-supporting-terrorism-whilst-Australian-husband-fights-Syria-member-brutal-militant-group.html

[/quote]







Quote:

[quote] "[a respected moslem community spokesman has] called on Australian Muslims to spurn secular democracy and Western notions of moderate Islam... ...[moslems in Australia were told] that democracy is "haram" (forbidden) for Muslims, whose political engagement should be be based purely on Islamic law. "We must adhere to Islam and Islam alone," Mr Hanif [said]"

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2010/07/australia-members-of-hizb-ut-tahrir-say-country-is-god-forsaken-and-that-muslims-must-shun-secular-a.html


And the evidence which shows a moslem malice towards non-moslems, just on, and on, and on, and on, and on.





QUESTION;
When are these people [the moslem community in Australia] going to experience the LAWFUL consequence of breaking our laws, and of conspiring to break our laws ?

[Sheik Hilali and Carnita Matthews are two names that come to mind.]

And of belonging to a lying, deceitful philosophy [ISLAM], which encourages political and religious violence against those who do not believe as they believe ?

How long are the authorities in Australia going to allow the members of this 'community' [ISLAM], to continue to work [subversively] to usurp and to undermine and to work to destroy Australian society, and to work to destroy the values of freedom and truth, and to work to destroy respect for law [in Australia] - values which Australians have struggled for, and values which many Australians have made painful sacrifices to secure and to defend ?

Where are the charges of treason, and where are the charges of sedition, against many members of the moslem community who are engaged in a widespread conspiracy of lying to Australians [of lying to the Australian community] when they [moslems] claim to bear no ill will, to Australia, its people, and its governing authorities ?


???

[/quote]





WATCH LITTLE - ISIS MONSTERS - [moslems] BEING CREATED - BY MAINSTREAM ISLAM, HERE IN AUSTRALIA.....


Quote:

Even within a nation like Australia 'the moslem', can be seen [in 'an unguarded moment'] to be 'exciting' [in moslem children] a murderous hatred of Australians, and of [all] persons who do not believe, as moslems believe. as per being shown, here..... Muslims brainwash children in Australia http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=krk5piUzp1E

Quote:

Islamic State training children to be jihad killers Nov 24, 2014 09:30 pm | Robert Spencer “We’re going to kill you, O kuffar. Insha’allah we’ll slaughter you.” Kuffar = Infidels. Insha’allah = Allah willing. Not that this has anything to do with Islam. “Children of the Jihad: ISIS Behead Kurdish Children; Train Kazakh Children to Fight,” by Donna Rachel Edmunds, Breitbart, November 24, 2014

Google

ColdFact wrote on Dec 3^rd, 2014 at 6:16am:

My simplistic state doesn't seem to exist...anywhere! Believe what you want. Pray to whatever deity you wish. Build whatever church or place of worship you want. Teach your children whatever you want. Respect the religious beliefs and practices of others. But leave me, my family and children, my country, our political system -- from mainstream to grass roots -- and our schools...ALONE. Break my laws and -- a little bit like Sharia law -- you get the ol' hot lead enima.

That is the point [or the realisation which you need to come to]!

If you do not respect 'the moslem' and his god,           if you are an atheist,          or a Christian or a Jew,          then you are deemed to be a criminal, by 'the moslem' [i.e. by the follower of ISLAM].



Dictionary;
Muslim = = a follower of Islam.


ISLAM......


ISLAMIC LAW
"Ibn 'Umar related that the Messenger of Allah, upon whom be peace, said, "I have been ordered to kill the people until they testify that there is no god except Allah, and that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, and they establish prayer and pay the zakah. If they do that, their blood and wealth are protected from me save by the rights of Islam. Their reckoning will be with Allah." (Related by al-Bukhari and Muslim.) "
fiqhussunnah/fus1_06




THE KORAN
"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. "
Koran 9.29




THE 'PROPHET' OF ISLAM
"...the Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him." - DEAD.
hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #004.052.260







But while moslems are weak, we do not have to be concerned ?

Coz, while moslems are weak, 'the moslem' will tell us that ISLAM is a tolerant faith.

......i.e. all the while, that 'the moslem' has no opportunity to impose his malicious will upon us, we are safe ?

Is that what you believe ?        :o



IMAGE...
http://www.raymondibrahim.com/_admin/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/129.jpeg

Sheikh Yassir al-Burhami



Quote:

How Circumstance Dictates Islamic Behavior January 18, 2012 Preach Peace When Weak, Wage War When Strong "...all notions of peace with non-Muslims are based on circumstance. When Muslims are weak, they should be peaceful; when strong, they should go on the offensive."

Sheikh Yassir al-Burhami - an ISLAMIC scholar and Egyptian Salafi leader
http://www.raymondibrahim.com/from-the-arab-world/how-circumstance-dictates-islamic-behavior/

Yadda wrote on Dec 3^rd, 2014 at 6:35am:

ColdFact wrote on Dec 3rd, 2014 at 6:16am: My simplistic state doesn't seem to exist...anywhere! Believe what you want. Pray to whatever deity you wish. Build whatever church or place of worship you want. Teach your children whatever you want. Respect the religious beliefs and practices of others. But leave me, my family and children, my country, our political system -- from mainstream to grass roots -- and our schools...ALONE. Break my laws and -- a little bit like Sharia law -- you get the ol' hot lead enima. That is the point [or the realisation which you need to come to]! If you do not respect 'the moslem' and his god,           if you are an atheist,          or a Christian or a Jew,          then you are deemed to be a criminal, by 'the moslem' [i.e. by the follower of ISLAM]. Dictionary; Muslim = = a follower of Islam. ISLAM...... ISLAMIC LAW "Ibn 'Umar related that the Messenger of Allah, upon whom be peace, said, "I have been ordered to kill the people until they testify that there is no god except Allah, and that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, and they establish prayer and pay the zakah. If they do that, their blood and wealth are protected from me save by the rights of Islam. Their reckoning will be with Allah." (Related by al-Bukhari and Muslim.) " fiqhussunnah/fus1_06 THE KORAN "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. " Koran 9.29 THE 'PROPHET' OF ISLAM "...the Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him." - DEAD. hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #004.052.260 But while moslems are weak, we do not have to be concerned ? Coz, while moslems are weak, 'the moslem' will tell us that ISLAM is a tolerant faith. ......i.e. all the while, that 'the moslem' has no opportunity to impose his malicious will upon us, we are safe ? Is that what you believe ?        :o IMAGE... http://www.raymondibrahim.com/_admin/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/129.jpeg Sheikh Yassir al-Burhami Quote: How Circumstance Dictates Islamic Behavior January 18, 2012 Preach Peace When Weak, Wage War When Strong "...all notions of peace with non-Muslims are based on circumstance. When Muslims are weak, they should be peaceful; when strong, they should go on the offensive." Sheikh Yassir al-Burhami - an ISLAMIC scholar and Egyptian Salafi leader http://www.raymondibrahim.com/from-the-arab-world/how-circumstance-dictates-islamic-behavior/

It always amuses me that like waving a red rag at a bull (bulls can't really see red) that any discussion about governments or vested interests mixing politics with religion just turns into Muslim bashing.

I lived in an area with a huge Muslim population, mixed with Christians and all sorts of religions.  We all mixed together very well, went to football games together, ate at McDonalds (Yechhh), drank Coca Cola (yechhhh).  No Muslim ever tried to convert me or ostracize me.

People with these narrow-minded views need to get a grip on a subject that they have little experience with.
Not go looking for some cut-and-paste job on the Net.

freediver wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2014 at 8:50pm:

Have there been any 'Muslim regimes' during this period Gandalf? Or were they all western puppets?

Why don't we cut to the chase and you explain exactly what strawman you are attempting to create. I suspect Karnal is right and you are just transposing an old argument you had with Abu on to me.

I think my point should be very clear - that the OP's claim that "the worst" (presumably in terms of freedom and democracy) countries in the world can simplistically be pidgeon-holed as religious fundamentalist regimes, is incorrect. Would you at least agree with that?

ColdFact wrote on Dec 3^rd, 2014 at 7:57am:

It always amuses me that like waving a red rag at a bull (bulls can't really see red) that any discussion about governments or vested interests mixing politics with religion just turns into Muslim bashing. I lived in an area with a huge Muslim population, mixed with Christians and all sorts of religions.  We all mixed together very well, went to football games together, ate at McDonalds (Yechhh), drank Coca Cola (yechhhh).  No Muslim ever tried to convert me or ostracize me. People with these narrow-minded views need to get a grip on a subject that they have little experience with. Not go looking for some cut-and-paste job on the Net.

ColdFact,

You opinion, is that i know very little about ISLAM, or what motivates 'the moslem'.

Thank you for expressing your opinion.







+++





Dictionary;
Muslim = = a follower of Islam.


ISLAM......


ISLAMIC LAW
"Ibn 'Umar related that the Messenger of Allah, upon whom be peace, said, "I have been ordered to kill the people until they testify that there is no god except Allah, and that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, and they establish prayer and pay the zakah. If they do that, their blood and wealth are protected from me save by the rights of Islam. Their reckoning will be with Allah." (Related by al-Bukhari and Muslim.) "
fiqhussunnah/fus1_06




THE KORAN
"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. "
Koran 9.29




THE 'PROPHET' OF ISLAM
"...the Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him." - DEAD.
hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #004.052.260







Yadda said.....

Quote:

Getting past the blatant deceit of 'the moslem' who lives among us, getting past the blatant lying of 'the moslem' who lives among us; QUESTION; Why does 'the moslem' hate us [i.e. we who are not moslems] ? Is it because we have harmed 'the moslem', beforehand ? ANSWER; 'The moslem' - MUST - hate us, because ISLAM establishes a never-ending and lawful - RELIGIOUS HATRED - for all non-moslems which is established and is given lawful authority, within the inerrant Koran] ! "....there has arisen, between us and you, enmity and hatred for ever...." "There is for you an excellent example (to follow) in Abraham and those with him, when they said to their people: "We are clear of you and of whatever ye worship besides Allah: we have rejected you, and there has arisen, between us and you, enmity and hatred for ever,- unless ye believe in Allah and Him alone"....." Koran 60:4

I would have thought Yadda would have attacked the secular values tpart as well.

Yadda's all about secular values. You should have seen him standing up for LGBT rights in Malaysia.

Yadda wrote on Dec 3^rd, 2014 at 9:29am:

ColdFact wrote on Dec 3rd, 2014 at 7:57am: It always amuses me that like waving a red rag at a bull (bulls can't really see red) that any discussion about governments or vested interests mixing politics with religion just turns into Muslim bashing. I lived in an area with a huge Muslim population, mixed with Christians and all sorts of religions.  We all mixed together very well, went to football games together, ate at McDonalds (Yechhh), drank Coca Cola (yechhhh).  No Muslim ever tried to convert me or ostracize me. People with these narrow-minded views need to get a grip on a subject that they have little experience with. Not go looking for some cut-and-paste job on the Net. ColdFact, You opinion, is that i know very little about ISLAM, or what motivates 'the moslem'. Thank you for expressing your opinion.

Nah...didn't say anything like that.   It's up above if you want to read what I said....Yep there it is....just up there!
Talking about actual experiences.

Who cares what anybody knows about any religion.  I had to suffer through a Catholic education, I've got enough bullshit stacked up to last me a lifetime.  But these nut-job religos won't leave my kids alone when the local school lets these drop-kick scripture teachers loose on our schools.  Yeah you can sign off -- but they'll get you in the playground, after school or drop friggin' bibles in your letterbox -- or come around door knocking.

One thing I can say for the Muslims is that during my long, long stay amongst a large Muslim community, nobody ever knocked on my door and tried to convert me -- except those Mormon, Seven Day Adventist and Jehovah Witnesses traveling circuses. 

I personally don't know the first thing about Islam -- or any other religion outside of the brainwashing that I've had.  And I couldn't give a monkey's.

We all have to live together. 

ColdFact wrote on Dec 3^rd, 2014 at 11:01am:

One thing I can say for the Muslims is that during my long, long stay amongst a large Muslim community, nobody ever knocked on my door and tried to convert me

But they did knock on your door and tried to cut your head off - right?

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2014 at 3:25pm:

valleyboy wrote on Dec 1st, 2014 at 11:45pm: The worst countries haven't managed to evolve. There religion is still integral to politics and every aspect of peoples' lives. An extremely ill-thought out statement - The Soviet Union, the entire Eastern Block, North Korea, Baathist Iraq and Syria - just a sample of the many thoroughly corrupt, brutal, anti-freedom regimes in the last 50 years - and every one of them either atheist or irreligious.

The Soviets,Norks along with Iraq and Syria have evolved.

What happened to the Soviets after Reagan said tear down this wall, did the Cold war against Communism end without a shot being fired?

The Norks are still the same communist dictators, nothing new there.

Parts of Iraq and Syria have evolved or should we say returned to the 7th century with the Islamic state.
Assad is still the same bloodthirsty regime, the Shia have aligned with Iran.

Of course the Kurds have evolved with secular deomcracy and human rights for all in lands they control.

The Australian government is irreligious or even atheist, we have separation of religion and state, do you consider the Australian government to be atheist and irreligious Gandalf?

Communism is just like a religion, why do you think the USA and many other secular countries oppose it?

What is the difference between the atheist Australian government and communism gandalf?

Baronvonrort wrote on Dec 3^rd, 2014 at 12:11pm:

What is the difference between the atheist Australian government and communism gandalf?

Wow Baron, its almost as if you're implying I claimed that because some irreligious/atheist regimes were/are vile, therefore all irreligious/atheist regimes are vile.

But of course you wouldn't do that - that would be distorting what I actually said wouldn't it?

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 3^rd, 2014 at 9:10am:

freediver wrote on Dec 2nd, 2014 at 8:50pm: Have there been any 'Muslim regimes' during this period Gandalf? Or were they all western puppets? Why don't we cut to the chase and you explain exactly what strawman you are attempting to create. I suspect Karnal is right and you are just transposing an old argument you had with Abu on to me. I think my point should be very clear - that the OP's claim that "the worst" (presumably in terms of freedom and democracy) countries in the world can simplistically be pidgeon-holed as religious fundamentalist regimes, is incorrect. Would you at least agree with that?

I have no idea where this is going Gandalf - hence the question. You do sound a lot like Abu, not so much because of the "so such thing as an Islamic state" schtick, but because of your efforts to deflect. Abu was also fond of claiming I was steering the discussion somewhere sinister with full knowledge of what was going on, when in reality he was leading the way.

I agree that the communists were probably just as bad.

Have there been any 'Muslim regimes' during this period Gandalf? Or were they all western puppets?

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 3^rd, 2014 at 11:04am:

ColdFact wrote on Dec 3rd, 2014 at 11:01am: One thing I can say for the Muslims is that during my long, long stay amongst a large Muslim community, nobody ever knocked on my door and tried to convert me But they did knock on your door and tried to cut your head off - right?

Oh, yeah, yeah there was that --  almost slipped my mind. But the guy just had a rubber knife and asked me to wear this orange shirt and make gurgling noises whilst he rolled his video camera.  I thought it was the boys from the football club so I went along with it -- plus I was  three parts pissed.

freediver wrote on Dec 3^rd, 2014 at 12:35pm:

I have no idea where this is going Gandalf - hence the question.

I point out that a particular claim is rubbish - because it is rubbish (and you agree) - and you have no idea where its going? Interesting. Is it because I didn't indulge in some rant about some western conspiracy, and it was left to you to try and bait me into doing so that you are left so clueless?


freediver wrote on Dec 3^rd, 2014 at 12:35pm:

your efforts to deflect.

I think when its so obviously trying to construct some sort of strawman by baiting me with the completely irrelevant and out-of-the-blue "or are they all western puppets" its fair enough to ask what its all about.

But to answer your question, there probably were some 'islamic regimes' during that period, I haven't really thought about it. Iran for example, after 1979. And yes, there have also been a lot of western client regimes.

Yadda wrote on Dec 3^rd, 2014 at 9:29am:

ColdFact wrote on Dec 3rd, 2014 at 7:57am: It always amuses me that like waving a red rag at a bull (bulls can't really see red) that any discussion about governments or vested interests mixing politics with religion just turns into Muslim bashing. I lived in an area with a huge Muslim population, mixed with Christians and all sorts of religions.  We all mixed together very well, went to football games together, ate at McDonalds (Yechhh), drank Coca Cola (yechhhh).  No Muslim ever tried to convert me or ostracize me. People with these narrow-minded views need to get a grip on a subject that they have little experience with. Not go looking for some cut-and-paste job on the Net. ColdFact, You opinion, is that i know very little about ISLAM, or what motivates 'the moslem'.

Which one?  There are 1.6 billion of them, afterall... :D :D :D ;D ;D ;D :D :D :D ;D ;D ;D

Muslims acting as individuals? Goodness me HB, what an absurd idea.

Ever see the cybermen on Dr Who? We're just like that.

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 3^rd, 2014 at 3:04pm:

Muslims acting as individuals? Goodness me HB, what an absurd idea. Ever see the cybermen on Dr Who? We're just like that.

Really?  I thought you were more like the Daleks:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0n88tZQc4Q


:D :D ;D ;D :D :D ;D ;D :D :D ;D ;D

lol - Dalek humour never gets old

Quote:

I point out that a particular claim is rubbish - because it is rubbish (and you agree) - and you have no idea where its going? Interesting. Is it because I didn't indulge in some rant about some western conspiracy, and it was left to you to try and bait me into doing so that you are left so clueless?

It was because you said this:


polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2014 at 3:25pm:

valleyboy wrote on Dec 1st, 2014 at 11:45pm: The worst countries haven't managed to evolve. There religion is still integral to politics and every aspect of peoples' lives. An extremely ill-thought out statement - The Soviet Union, the entire Eastern Block, North Korea, Baathist Iraq and Syria - just a sample of the many thoroughly corrupt, brutal, anti-freedom regimes in the last 50 years - and every one of them either atheist or irreligious.

What is wrong with me trying to figure out what this is about? Like I said, I have no idea where this is going. That depends on what you say.


Quote:

I think when its so obviously trying to construct some sort of strawman by baiting me with the completely irrelevant and out-of-the-blue "or are they all western puppets" its fair enough to ask what its all about.

The "western puppets" thing was Abu's standard explanation for why there is no such thing as an Islamic State. If you have your own explanation, feel free to offer it.


Quote:

But to answer your question, there probably were some 'islamic regimes' during that period, I haven't really thought about it. Iran for example, after 1979. And yes, there have also been a lot of western client regimes.

Is religion only integral to politics in those few Islamic regimes?

|dev|null wrote on Dec 3^rd, 2014 at 3:26pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 3rd, 2014 at 3:04pm: Muslims acting as individuals? Goodness me HB, what an absurd idea. Ever see the cybermen on Dr Who? We're just like that. Really?  I thought you were more like the Daleks: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0n88tZQc4Q :D :D ;D ;D :D :D ;D ;D :D :D ;D ;D

Spike Milligan at his best.    ;D

Where’s Abu?

freediver wrote on Dec 3^rd, 2014 at 7:39pm:

What is wrong with me trying to figure out what this is about? Like I said, I have no idea where this is going.

Why is it going anywhere? He made a statement which I disagree with - I explained why I disagree with it - even you, apparently, disagree with it. Thats really all there is to it. I never intended it to "go" anywhere.

Sometimes a response is just a response.

So why the elaborate dance and posturing to avoid answering the question?

I made a simple rebuttal to the OP FD - which even you agree with. The posturing and dancing was from you by trying to put words into my mouth about 'western puppets' and such.

Sometimes a response is just a response - and trolling is always just trolling.

Trying to get a straight answer from a Muslim:

G:
The Soviet Union, the entire Eastern Block, North Korea, Baathist Iraq and Syria - just a sample of the many thoroughly corrupt, brutal, anti-freedom regimes in the last 50 years - and every one of them either atheist or irreligious.

F:
Have there been any Muslim countries during this period Gandalf? Or were they all western puppets?

G:
Sure, a country that has a majority of muslims is a muslim country. Plenty of them.

F:
So Baathist Iraq is not a Muslim country?

G:
Baathist Iraq was a muslim country - I never said it wasn't.
Having an irreligious regime doesn't stop a muslim country being a muslim country.

F:
Have there been any 'Muslim regimes' during this period Gandalf? Or were they all western puppets?

G:
Why don't we cut to the chase and you explain exactly what strawman you are attempting to create. I suspect Karnal is right and you are just transposing an old argument you had with Abu on to me.


polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 4^th, 2014 at 9:04am:

The posturing and dancing was from you by trying to put words into my mouth about 'western puppets' and such.

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 3^rd, 2014 at 1:30pm:

And yes, there have also been a lot of western client regimes.

ok I think part of this is about misinterpreting my first post - which I admit may be a little ambiguous. By "every single one" i didn't mean every single "bad" regime that ever existed during the post war era, but every single one from that sample I listed.

By 'misinterpreting', do you mean asking a direct question about whether that is what you meant?

freediver wrote on Dec 5^th, 2014 at 9:14pm:

By 'misinterpreting', do you mean asking a direct question about whether that is what you meant?

You asked me a question about western puppets - not what I meant by 'every single one'

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 5^th, 2014 at 9:18pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 5th, 2014 at 9:14pm: By 'misinterpreting', do you mean asking a direct question about whether that is what you meant? You asked me a question about western puppets - not what I meant by 'every single one'

'Punch and Judy' are Western puppets.

Maybe it was about them ?

Yeah.              :P



Well i can tell you FD, 'Punch and Judy' are NOT moslems.                       8-)

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 5^th, 2014 at 9:18pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 5th, 2014 at 9:14pm: By 'misinterpreting', do you mean asking a direct question about whether that is what you meant? You asked me a question about western puppets - not what I meant by 'every single one'

You don't think me asking if there were any others would have resolved my 'misunderstanding' of your post?

Is that why you did your elaborate song and dance routine to avoid answering it?

Ask him again, FD. He’s not answering.

Ask him why he’s ignoring your question.

freediver wrote on Dec 5^th, 2014 at 9:47pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 5th, 2014 at 9:18pm: freediver wrote on Dec 5th, 2014 at 9:14pm: By 'misinterpreting', do you mean asking a direct question about whether that is what you meant? You asked me a question about western puppets - not what I meant by 'every single one' You don't think me asking if there were any others would have resolved my 'misunderstanding' of your post? Is that why you did your elaborate song and dance routine to avoid answering it?

I honestly didn't know what you were referring to FD. I'm sorry for the confusion. I hope its resolved now.

Google Taqiyya, FD. Abu used to do it all the time.

Dirty Paki Khunt wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2014 at 10:44pm:

This was one of FD’s favourite Abu questions. Ah, the good old days...

Ah, the arrival of the man-and-not-the-ball disruptionist. The rest will be along soon.

Dirty Paki Khunt wrote on Dec 6^th, 2014 at 11:01am:

Google Taqiyya, FD. Abu used to do it all the time.

You're lucky FD has already confessed to being your patron and sponsor with regard to these stock-in-trade juvenile attempts at deflecting attention away from thread topics.

Go on, have another go. Dilute this whole thread to the ridiculous and the absurd with your badgering and heckling.

What a contributer! No wonder FD keeps you around.

No?

Meanwhile ... (by Karnal's leave, if he'll be so kind as to restrain himself for just a few moments) ...

The thread title is: 'Islam and Australian secular values'.

Needless to say, by 'Australian' values we are first and foremost referring to the values of British Australians, and not that of 'ethnic' Australians among whom some of them still adhere to the traditional view of women 'knowing their place', and being demonstrably subservient to their husbands, and even to their brothers, as with some Muslims.

The Islamic and the British secular divide in social values is a chasm over there in Britain where even the most educated of Muslims still insist on the womenfolk being escorted 'below stairs' where their silly chatter and empty-headed idiocy will not disturb the profundity and gravitas of the males gathering in the upper chambers.

"A Lord Mayor walked out of an Islamic charity lunch after discovering that he would have to be segregated from his female consort.

Labour councillor John Thomas, 70, arrived at the function last Sunday with consort Margaret Corley, 72.

But Councillor Thomas, the Lord Mayor of Leicester, was said to be upset at being told he would have to dine in an upstairs function room with male guests, while his consort would be seated downstairs with the other women.

The lunch was held to mark the end of Charity Week – an annual fundraising event supported by around 20 university Islamic societies in the UK, and others in Canada and Qatar. It took place at a wedding and conference venue near Leicester railway station".

***

'20 university Islamic societies' ...

This wasn't at the request of a bunch of ignorant peasants steeped in centuries of tradition, and from the back blocs of Afghanistan or Yemen.

These were the sharpest minds of the Muslim brotherhood relegating the local mayor's female consort to the lower decks where the chattel are kept penned until their menfolk are ready to take them home.

link

Dirty Paki Khunt wrote on Dec 6^th, 2014 at 9:51am:

Ask him again, FD. He’s not answering. Ask him why he’s ignoring your question.

He's your creation, FD. You insisted on never using the Mortein.

You like blowflies at your BBQ? ~ so enjoy ...

Say something personal to him, FD, that's what all this noise from him is about.

THE former head of the controversial al-Risalah Islamic Centre in Bankstown said the four El Baf brothers who fled Australia to join Islamic State in Syria would be given a free house and he whole heartedly supported their decision.

Wissam Haddad said he knew the El Baf family but not the brothers Omar, 28, Bilal, 25, Hamza, 23, and Taha, 17, personally.

The brothers told their parents they were going to Thailand but later sent a text indicating they were in Syria.

“Do I support any Muslim wanting to live under a full Islamic system, yes I do,” Mr Haddad said yesterday.

“It’s not surprising to me ... I don’t believe it’s out of Muslim character.

“If they just want to live under the Sharia, from what I’ve heard migrants who come to the Islamic State are given housing and all sorts of things.

“They could just be living there. I don’t know if living in Syria is a crime under the Islamic State.

“There is something that Allah is offering more than any person or country can offer and that’s paradise..

“One of the scholars said how can you fight a people who look down the barrel of a gun and see paradise. It’s what we are all after, eternal bliss, eternal paradise, which is a lot better than the world we live in.”

The extremist al-Risalah bookstore closed its doors in September a month after Mr Haddad told The Daily Telegraph he supported Islamic State’s black shaddad flag and not the Australian one.

Mr Haddad said he was still in limited contact with his friends in Syria, including Khaled Sharrouf, and had plans to re-open “an office or a youth centre”.

The El Baf brothers’ great uncle Abdul El Baf, 75, said the family hailed from Tripoli in northern Lebanon and the boys were born and bred in Australia.

He said the boys prayed at the Sefton Mosque, close to their Yagoona home, with their father Issam but he did not think they were radicalised there.

“Somebody put poo in their heads. I don’t believe in this religious bullshit. I believe in Allah and pray and that’s it,” he said.

“I wonder what happened to these idiot kids. Don’t listen to these idiot political people.

“I am very upset for his family. He is a good father. I hope they would come back to the best country in the world — Australia.”

High school student Taha also played rugby league for the Regent Park Pumas, playing in the finals last year.

Pumas president Mike Cogger said Taha was a “pretty good player” who played in the centres.

“I always found him very polite. That (travelling to Syria) doesn’t sound like him,” he said.

Lord Herbert wrote on Dec 6^th, 2014 at 12:02pm:

Dirty Paki Khunt wrote on Dec 6th, 2014 at 9:51am: Ask him again, FD. He’s not answering. Ask him why he’s ignoring your question. He's your creation, FD. You insisted on never using the Mortein. You like blowflies at your BBQ? ~ so enjoy ... Say something personal to him, FD, that's what all this noise from him is about.

He’s talking to me again, FD. I’m back off the ignore list.

I think it had something to do with a lack of Pakistani blood. Herbie and moi, you see, are both whinging Poms.

Rule Brittainia, no?

Trying to teach British values to Australian kids would definitely not be approved of by our immigrant Muslim colonialist community leaders if the UK experience is anything to go by.

"A Sikh headteacher who ran a school at the centre of an alleged 'Trojan Horse' plot said today he was forced out because he was 'giving children British values'.

Balwant Bains claims he had to leave Saltley School in Birmingham after suffering a campaign of 'emotional harassment' spearheaded by Muslim governors.

Mr Bains, who was put on gardening leave and then decided to quit, opposed plans by Muslim governors to scrap sex education lessons and introduce only Halal meat, from animals killed in line with the Koran's teachings, for school meals.

The headteacher, which helped his school get record GCSE results in 2013, says he was accused of Islamophobia and racism after he tried to discipline a Muslim pupil who threatened other students with a knife.

Speaking for the first time about his treatment Mr Bains said: 'I suppose I was a threat, giving these children more British values, for them to be integrated into society.

One more time for the apologists at the back of the class:

"The headteacher, which helped his school get record GCSE results in 2013, says he was accused of Islamophobia and racism after he tried to discipline a Muslim pupil who threatened other students with a knife.

"Right wing parties are now popping up like mushrooms after a storm because people need somewhere to go. They need someone to listen to them.

We will as usual follow the British and European social experiments and the lesson to be learnt from there is the failure of Islamic integration.

Most Australians recognise the problem but no Party in Australia is prepared to even discuss it.

Any Party that in future holds the balance of power, and there will be one, will have as its prominent platform the growing threat of Islam.

Don’t expect the Left to upset a large part of its voter base in marginal electorates, the Islamic problem is the Right’s problem.

And that’s why Nick Xenophon is playing with his donger if he thinks there’s a vacant spot in the Centre".

Now he’s stalking me, FD. He keeps putting up these creepy Yadda posts from those awful British tabloids.

Any chance you could use your influence to get me back on the ignore list?

Soren wrote on Dec 6^th, 2014 at 12:09pm:

Don’t listen to these idiot political people.

Sound advice for us all

I do enjoy reading Herbie, a non-citizen dictating to Australians what their values are and should be.   I enjoy even more, Herbie, a non-resident of the UK dictating to the British how their society should be acting.   We just need him, a non-resident and non-citizen of China to dictate to the Chinese how they should be acting.   Share 'round, Herbie!  Share it 'round!   ::)

Brian Ross wrote on Dec 9^th, 2014 at 11:35pm:

I do enjoy reading Herbie, a non-citizen dictating to Australians what their values are and should be.   I enjoy even more, Herbie, a non-resident of the UK dictating to the British how their society should be acting.   We just need him, a non-resident and non-citizen of China to dictate to the Chinese how they should be acting.   Share 'round, Herbie!  Share it 'round!   ::)

I lived for four years with a Russian aunt who could have been sent to the gulag if she had dared voice a liberal opinion while she was buying her cabbages and beetroots down at the Saturday markets just north of Moscow.

It's a huge privilege for us to so freely and so publicly say practically anything we like here without fear of expecting heavy pounding at the front door at midnight by large, humourless men in dark uniforms with deaths head silver insignia.

The Islamisation of western nations is well on its way, and it only needs that Muslim numbers increase to critical mass before they will then have a democratic mandate to govern and introduce their own sharia laws.

If you fancy yourself as having more liberal-progressive values than I do, and having more tolerance-and-understanding for society's unconventional bohemians ... the homosexuals, the atheists, the 'alternative life-stylists', the feminists, the criminals ... then it's to you and your ilk that the Muslim religious police will first pay a visit long before they come around to my place.

You're perception of what the Muslim mentality comprises is delusional, Brian. You defend the Muslims at every opportunity as though they share your values of 'liberal-progressive' Christian tolerance and multicultural advocacy.

Give these people political power and it won't be the liberals or the moderates among them who will be holding the whip-hand.

Sensei, this bait is fresh and colourful!  Your Way of the Troll is strong in this post!  You attract much prey which comes snapping at your bait.  You have landed a big fish, in Brian, well done!  He has snapped up your bait!  I learn much, crouched at your feet, following our instruction in the Way of the Troll!   ;D ;D ;D :D :D :D ;D ;D ;D :D :D :D

Lord Herbert wrote on Dec 10^th, 2014 at 7:02am:

Brian Ross wrote on Dec 9th, 2014 at 11:35pm: I do enjoy reading Herbie, a non-citizen dictating to Australians what their values are and should be.   I enjoy even more, Herbie, a non-resident of the UK dictating to the British how their society should be acting.   We just need him, a non-resident and non-citizen of China to dictate to the Chinese how they should be acting.   Share 'round, Herbie!  Share it 'round!   ::) I lived for four years with a Russian aunt who could have been sent to the gulag if she had dared voice a liberal opinion while she was buying her cabbages and beetroots down at the Saturday markets just north of Moscow. It's a huge privilege for us to so freely and so publicly say practically anything we like here without fear of expecting heavy pounding at the front door at midnight by large, humourless men in dark uniforms with deaths head silver insignia. The Islamisation of western nations is well on its way, and it only needs that Muslim numbers increase to critical mass before they will then have a democratic mandate to govern and introduce their own sharia laws. If you fancy yourself as having more liberal-progressive values than I do, and having more tolerance-and-understanding for society's unconventional bohemians ... the homosexuals, the atheists, the 'alternative life-stylists', the feminists, the criminals ... then it's to you and your ilk that the Muslim religious police will first pay a visit long before they come around to my place. You're perception of what the Muslim mentality comprises is delusional, Brian. You defend the Muslims at every opportunity as though they share your values of 'liberal-progressive' Christian tolerance and multicultural advocacy. Give these people political power and it won't be the liberals or the moderates among them who will be holding the whip-hand.

Herbie’s just cranky he isn’t holding the whip anymore.

There there, Herbie. We’ll let the sub-humans stew in their own juices. For now.

They’ll be dealt with in the fullness of time.

The UK's only freely-elected male Muslim resigned from politics for the stated reason that the death-threats from a section of the UK's Muslim community could no longer be ignored, and were serious enough for him to do their bidding and retire from politics in order to protect himself and his family from dire consequences.

It doesn't matter that 90% of the Muslim community is happy to live their lives as passive and inoffensive.

It doesn't matter that 90% of a poisoned pie is delicious and harmless.

Lord Herbert wrote on Dec 12^th, 2014 at 9:43am:

The UK's only freely-elected male Muslim resigned from politics for the stated reason that the death-threats from a section of the UK's Muslim community could no longer be ignored, and were serious enough for him to do their bidding and retire from politics in order to protect himself and his family from dire consequences. It doesn't matter that 90% of the Muslim community is happy to live their lives as passive and inoffensive. It doesn't matter that 90% of a poisoned pie is delicious and harmless.

Gee Herb, its almost as if you deliberately omitted the fact that this happened 7 years ago - or that there are a lot more sitting muslim MPs today: 10 according to this list:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_British_Muslims#Members_of_Parliament

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 12^th, 2014 at 10:12am:

Gee Herb, its almost as if you deliberately omitted the fact that this happened 7 years ago - or that there are a lot more sitting muslim MPs today: 10 according to this list: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_British_Muslims#Members_of_Parliament

I knew you were crouched down in the tall grass watching my every word.

And you've fallen head-long into the trap I laid for you.

The fact that Muslims are now in such number in the British parliament can only mean one thing:

They are self-censoring themselves so as not to attract the ire of the death-jihadists. They've learnt their lesson from their predecessor who quit politics rather than continue to speak freely and fearlessly at risk of assassination.

In other words this current bunch of Muslims are nothing but tokens for fear of upsetting the hardliners out there in the Muslim community.

They are 'behaving themselves' by not giving voice to anything that might be construed as support for punishing terrorists returning from serving with al Qaeda or ISIS. They've learnt to keep their mouths shut 'if they know what's good for them'.

And what this means is a roll-back of British democracy in its parliament.

It's a textbook case study of why Muslims shouldn't be elected to western governments.

I hope you didn’t get that textbook at the library, Herbie.

It would have been censored by the Muslims. This explains how you got your facts all wrong.

I blame Islam.

Sensei, you are spreading much burley in the water!  It is bringing in more and more sharks to your nets!  Such wonderful bait, all fresh and colourful, it attracts your prey!  Such is the Way of the Troll!!   :D :D :D ;D ;D ;D :D :D :D :D

HB we've talked about these posts before - and I thought we had an understanding that you wouldn't be making them any more. Please desist.

I sympathise with these Muslim politicians who find themselves under threat from the hardliners, but then it behooves them to resign from the political arena rather than remain there as puppets and tokens.

Rather than be part of a charade, they should declare themselves compromised, and unable to fulfill their obligations properly.

No one could blame them.

Lord Herbert wrote on Dec 12^th, 2014 at 2:21pm:

I sympathise with these Muslim politicians who find themselves under threat from the hardliners, but then it behooves them to resign from the political arena rather than remain there as puppets and tokens. Rather than be part of a charade, they should declare themselves compromised, and unable to fulfill their obligations properly. No one could blame them.

And then they should be dealt with in the fullness of time, no?

Here we witness yet another example of two destructively delinquent members whose sole purpose in posting here is to trash-and-vandalise an otherwise perfectly reasonable set of opinion pieces.

Why FD tolerates these destructive termites is quite beyond me.

Karnal
Hot Breath
SpecialShirtFront/Special Character
greggerypeccery

After writing this, I headed over to the other thread to find this ...

link

Lord Herbert wrote on Dec 12^th, 2014 at 7:17pm:

Here we witness yet another example of two destructively delinquent members whose sole purpose in posting here is to trash-and-vandalise an otherwise perfectly reasonable set of opinion pieces. Why FD tolerates these destructive termites is quite beyond me. [1]Karnal [2]Hot Breath [3]SpecialShirtFront/Special Character [4]greggerypeccery

And here we witness Herbie at his sharpest. Clearly his math education was a little lacking.

And clearly the pain of being wrong is getting to herbert's head. I'm not here to trash/vandalise anything. Herb's just cross because I'm right and he's wrong. I've contributed to many a discussion.