How do we bring the musos into being real Australians that mix and live together in harmony!

Ban their friggin schools that are isolate them from the normal Aussie  community and indocrinate them into the them and us mentality.

This is different to other religious schools in that they have no interest in intergrating with the normal christian society in Oz

Do their children  join in normal community activities, sports etc,  I doubt it

Don't want them to mix. Just want them to leave our country ASAP.

Section 116 of the Constitution would prevent this IMO.

Why should Islam be the only religion to be prevented from being able to establish their own, private schools?   ::)

As long as they teach to the approved education curricula and do not engage in proselytising Islamism and Terrorist beliefs, I see no more harm in them having their own schools than Christians/Jews/Hindus/etc.   Further, they should receive the same level of Government support as do all other private schools (something I privately disagree with but recognise it does exist).

Taipan wrote on Sep 25^th, 2014 at 7:42pm:

Don't want them to mix. Just want them to leave our country ASAP.

Why should they have to if they are citizens?  They have as much claim to be here as you do.    ::)

Redmond Neck wrote on Sep 25^th, 2014 at 7:39pm:

How do we bring the musos into being real Australians that mix and live together in harmony! Ban their friggin schools that are isolate them from the normal Aussie  community and indocrinate them into the them and us mentality. This is different to other religious schools in that they have no interest in intergrating with the normal christian society in Oz Do their children  join in normal community activities, sports etc,  I doubt it

There is substantial anecdotal evidence that the few muslims who choose extremism and terrorism in this country, are those who are outside the fold of mainstream islamic institutions including mosques and schools. A 2008 British Intelligence report acknowledged that British Islamic institutions have a de-radicalising effect.

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 25^th, 2014 at 8:32pm:

Section 116 of the Constitution would prevent this IMO. Why should Islam be the only religion to be prevented from being able to establish their own, private schools?   ::) As long as they teach to the approved education curricula and do not engage in proselytising Islamism and Terrorist beliefs, I see no more harm in them having their own schools than Christians/Jews/Hindus/etc.   Further, they should receive the same level of Government support as do all other private schools (something I privately disagree with but recognise it does exist).

Do we give Islamic schools money?

They receive both state and federal funding.

Not long ago a Sydney Islamic school was ordered to pay back $9M when it was found out that the funds were being diverted to AFIC.

Black Orchid wrote on Sep 25^th, 2014 at 9:13pm:

They receive both state and federal funding. Not long ago a Sydney Islamic school was ordered to pay back $9M when it was found out that the funds were being diverted to AFIC.

shame

polite_gandalf wrote on Sep 25^th, 2014 at 8:36pm:

Redmond Neck wrote on Sep 25th, 2014 at 7:39pm: How do we bring the musos into being real Australians that mix and live together in harmony! Ban their friggin schools that are isolate them from the normal Aussie  community and indocrinate them into the them and us mentality. This is different to other religious schools in that they have no interest in intergrating with the normal christian society in Oz Do their children  join in normal community activities, sports etc,  I doubt it There is substantial anecdotal evidence that the few muslims who choose extremism and terrorism in this country, are those who are outside the fold of mainstream islamic institutions including mosques and schools. A 2008 British Intelligence report acknowledged that British Islamic institutions have a de-radicalising effect.

Are you outside the fold of mainstream Islamic institutions Gandalf?

How do Islamic schools fit in with your alienation theory of Islamic terrorism?

Quote:

An investigation ordered by the government found a "sustained, co-ordinated agenda to impose segregationist attitudes and practices of a hardline, politicised strain of Sunni Islam" in several Birmingham schools. It found that a group of governors and senior teachers had been promoting Islamic extremism. It identified the Muslim Council of Britain and the Association of Muslim Schools as organisations "[stemming] from an international movement to increase the role of Islam in education".[1] Peter Clarke, former counterterrorism chief conducted the investigation which examined gathered 2,000 documents and generated 2,000 pages of interview transcripts from 50 witnesses, including former headteachers, teachers, council staff and school governors. He said some of the witnesses had been very nervous and anxious. He found "very clear evidence" that young people were encouraged to "accept unquestionably a particular hardline strand of Sunni Islam that raises concerns about their vulnerability to radicalisation in the future." It described the ideology being promoted as: "an intolerant and politicised form of extreme social conservatism that claims to represent and ultimately seeks to control all Muslims. In its separatist assertions and attempts to subvert normal processes it amounts to what is often described as Islamism."[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Trojan_Horse

I hate them. Ban.them.

Bobby. wrote on Sep 25^th, 2014 at 9:08pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 25th, 2014 at 8:32pm: Section 116 of the Constitution would prevent this IMO. Why should Islam be the only religion to be prevented from being able to establish their own, private schools?   ::) As long as they teach to the approved education curricula and do not engage in proselytising Islamism and Terrorist beliefs, I see no more harm in them having their own schools than Christians/Jews/Hindus/etc.   Further, they should receive the same level of Government support as do all other private schools (something I privately disagree with but recognise it does exist). Do we give Islamic schools money?

Yes.  ::)

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 26^th, 2014 at 12:22am:

Bobby. wrote on Sep 25th, 2014 at 9:08pm: Brian Ross wrote on Sep 25th, 2014 at 8:32pm: Section 116 of the Constitution would prevent this IMO. Why should Islam be the only religion to be prevented from being able to establish their own, private schools?   ::) As long as they teach to the approved education curricula and do not engage in proselytising Islamism and Terrorist beliefs, I see no more harm in them having their own schools than Christians/Jews/Hindus/etc.   Further, they should receive the same level of Government support as do all other private schools (something I privately disagree with but recognise it does exist). Do we give Islamic schools money? Yes.  ::)

Then we try to get it back when we realise what they do with it.

Bobby. wrote on Sep 25^th, 2014 at 9:08pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 25th, 2014 at 8:32pm: Section 116 of the Constitution would prevent this IMO. Why should Islam be the only religion to be prevented from being able to establish their own, private schools?   ::) As long as they teach to the approved education curricula and do not engage in proselytising Islamism and Terrorist beliefs, I see no more harm in them having their own schools than Christians/Jews/Hindus/etc.   Further, they should receive the same level of Government support as do all other private schools (something I privately disagree with but recognise it does exist). Do we give Islamic schools money?

Yes, we do bobby.

Coz,      'ISLAM is peace!'             :P




bobby,

Australia has even funded the building of ISLAMIC schools, in Indonesia.

We do these type of things, to show moslems in Indonesia that we Australians really, really, really, do understand that 'ISLAM is peace!'             :P




n.b. these are RELIGIOUS SCHOOLS we are funding!!!!

from Yadda's archive....
A $29 MILLION GIFT FROM AUSTRALIA, TOWARDS THE ISLAMIC JIHAD.
....why are we so, so, dumb????

Australia unveils Islamic schools for Indon
Aug 2, 2007
Australia's ambassador to Indonesia and the secretary-general of the Indonesian Ministry for Religious Affairs have opened 46 new Islamic schools as part of a $29 million gift from Australia.
Work on **another 255** of the schools, known as madrasahs, will start in a few weeks.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/08/02/1994501.htm?section=justin

[the link may be old, but the news report is kosher]


duh! duh! duh!

And where do those Islamic schools in Indonesia get their texts books to teach their children?
....Saudi Arabia.

Google,
Islamic schools in Indonesia Saudi texts books






So we can teach moslem children in Indonesia that 'ISLAM is peace!'.....           :D

“When you meet the unbelievers, strike the necks…”
Koran 47:4

updated link to the story, Australia, funding ISLAMIC schools in Indonesia.....


http://www.abc.net.au/news/2007-08-02/australia-unveils-islamic-schools-for-indon/2519708

freediver wrote on Sep 25^th, 2014 at 9:16pm:

Are you outside the fold of mainstream Islamic institutions Gandalf? How do Islamic schools fit in with your alienation theory of Islamic terrorism?

You'll have to explain this one to me FD.

mainstream islamic institutions in Australia - including schools, and me are on the same page regarding islam's rejection of terrorism and intolerance as far as I'm concerned.

freediver wrote on Sep 26^th, 2014 at 8:45am:

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 26th, 2014 at 12:22am: Bobby. wrote on Sep 25th, 2014 at 9:08pm: Brian Ross wrote on Sep 25th, 2014 at 8:32pm: Section 116 of the Constitution would prevent this IMO. Why should Islam be the only religion to be prevented from being able to establish their own, private schools?   ::) As long as they teach to the approved education curricula and do not engage in proselytising Islamism and Terrorist beliefs, I see no more harm in them having their own schools than Christians/Jews/Hindus/etc.   Further, they should receive the same level of Government support as do all other private schools (something I privately disagree with but recognise it does exist). Do we give Islamic schools money? Yes.  ::) Then we try to get it back when we realise what they do with it.

One school?  Like tarring all Muslims with the same brush because one stabs a policeman.   I suppose you're nothing if not consistent in your views Freediver.   ;D ;D ;D :D :D :D

More than one school in NSW has been under investigation for breaching government funding guidelines   :)

polite_gandalf wrote on Sep 26^th, 2014 at 12:08pm:

freediver wrote on Sep 25th, 2014 at 9:16pm: Are you outside the fold of mainstream Islamic institutions Gandalf? How do Islamic schools fit in with your alienation theory of Islamic terrorism? You'll have to explain this one to me FD. mainstream islamic institutions in Australia - including schools, and me are on the same page regarding islam's rejection of terrorism and intolerance as far as I'm concerned.

No doubt you also agree with them on eating pork and worshipping elephants. Are you deliberately missing the point? Or was all that crap about being outside the fold merely saying that supporting terrorism puts a Muslim at greater risk of becoming a terrorist?

You have portrayed yourself as a reformer who rejects the classical interpretations of Islam. You have demonstrated this with your elaborate reinterpretations. Does this put you outside the fold of the mainstream?


Quote:

One school?

No HB. There were several schools and several scandals. Islamic schools, despite being a tiny minority of Australian private schools, dominate the scandals when it comes to misappropriation of government funds.

freediver wrote on Sep 26^th, 2014 at 1:57pm:

Are you deliberately missing the point? Or was all that crap about being outside the fold merely saying that supporting terrorism puts a Muslim at greater risk of becoming a terrorist?

That "crap" was about refuting the idea in the OP that its islamic institutions (like schools) that poses the terrorist threat - when the evidence suggests that these very institutions have a de-radicalising effect.


freediver wrote on Sep 26^th, 2014 at 1:57pm:

You have portrayed yourself as a reformer who rejects the classical interpretations of Islam. You have demonstrated this with your elaborate reinterpretations. Does this put you outside the fold of the mainstream?

Well gee whiz FD, I couldn't possibly be in disagreement with mainstream islam on some things, but be on the same page as them regarding terrorism and violence now could I?

I, unlike the terrorists, turn to mainstream islamic institutions for my social, formal, ceremonial etc religious interactions - not some dodgy backstreet imam. And I will be encouraging my children to do the same - with the fact that I know these institutions will educate them with a version of islam that emphasises peace and tolerance - as a major motivation. And believe it or not FD, this is actually possible even though I disagree with them on various doctrinal matters.

Also, please clarify this question:

How do Islamic schools fit in with your alienation theory of Islamic terrorism?

Quote:

That "crap" was about refuting the idea in the OP that its islamic institutions (like schools) that poses the terrorist threat - when the evidence suggests that these very institutions have a de-radicalising effect.

That is the reason you posted it Gandalf, but it is not a reason why you cannot answer simple questions about it. Are we only allowed to consider how it supports your argument while ignoring the holes in it?


Quote:

I, unlike the terrorists, turn to mainstream islamic institutions for my social, formal, ceremonial etc religious interactions - not some dodgy backstreet imam. And I will be encouraging my children to do the same - with the fact that I know these institutions will educate them with a version of islam that emphasises peace and tolerance - as a major motivation. And believe it or not FD, this is actually possible even though I disagree with them on various doctrinal matters.

Sounds like a question of causation to me. If a Muslim is drawn by Islam towards terrorism and his Muslim community rejects him for being a head hacking lunatic, is that rejection the cause of or the response to his extremism? Should the Muslim community embrace head hacking lunatics so they don't feel left out and blow something up? Do mainstream institutions actually protect against extremism, or merely attract people who were not inclined towards head hacking lunacy to begin with?


Quote:

Also, please clarify this question:

Being sent to an exclusive Islamic school is going to make a person feel more alienated from broader society.

freediver wrote on Sep 26^th, 2014 at 6:51pm:

That is the reason you posted it Gandalf, but it is not a reason why you cannot answer simple questions about it. Are we only allowed to consider how it supports your argument while ignoring the holes in it?

I'm sorry if I didn't satisfy you with my answer, but your going to have to spell out more clearly exactly what you want. Be a bit more specific about these questions I am not answering, and the holes I am supposedly ignoring.


freediver wrote on Sep 26^th, 2014 at 6:51pm:

If a Muslim is drawn by Islam towards terrorism and his Muslim community rejects him for being a head hacking lunatic

Stop right there - who said anything about the community rejecting them?


freediver wrote on Sep 26^th, 2014 at 6:51pm:

Should the Muslim community embrace head hacking lunatics so they don't feel left out and blow something up?

If you are asking should the muslim community do everything they can to reach out to muslims who are seeking non-conventional, extreme alternatives for their guidance - the yes they should.


freediver wrote on Sep 26^th, 2014 at 6:51pm:

Do mainstream institutions actually protect against extremism, or merely attract people who were not inclined towards head hacking lunacy to begin with?

I would argue both - based on, for example, the 2008 MI5 report.

But either way, the point is perfectly valid in the context that I made it - just the fact alone that mainstream institutions attract people who are not inclined towards extremism and terrorism is enough to refute the argument put forward in the OP.

Quote:

Stop right there - who said anything about the community rejecting them?

If a Muslim turns up to a Mosque and is told that his interpretation of Islam is wrong, he will be driven away. The Muslims at the mosque have a choice between trying to brush over and ignore his extremism, or confront it and risk driving him away.

Whatever they do, they keep it to themselves. Other than mothers dobbing in their sons so they can't go on a rape and pillage tour of the middle east, I see no evidence of it happening, and even that example is third hand. All the public debate appears to be between Muslims and non-Muslims.

I can't think of many examples from other religions, as the debate appears to be over now. The only one that comes to mind is GWB's talk of being on a mission from God (forget his exact words), which sparked a lot of vitriolic debate among Christians. There are plenty of equally stupid things being said by Muslim leaders on a daily basis, but the public debate is always centred on the victimhood of the Muslims who feel that non-Muslims are unfairly associating them with it.

freediver wrote on Sep 26^th, 2014 at 7:25pm:

If a Muslim turns up to a Mosque and is told that his interpretation of Islam is wrong, he will be driven away. The Muslims at the mosque have a choice between trying to brush over and ignore his extremism, or confront it and risk driving him away. Whatever they do, they keep it to themselves. Other than mothers dobbing in their sons so they can't go on a rape and pillage tour of the middle east, I see no evidence of it happening, and even that example is third hand. All the public debate appears to be between Muslims and non-Muslims.

I'm really not understanding FD, this seems completely incoherent.

The first paragraph implies the muslim community literally can't do anything, and then the second paragraph seems to suggest there is something they should be doing, but are not.

Quote:

The first paragraph implies the muslim community literally can't do anything, and then the second paragraph seems to suggest there is something they should be doing, but are not.

There is an awful lot they are not doing. I think it requires a more fundamental change than Muslims are prepared to accept. Quiet, backroom chats with angry young men is not going to make the problem go away. Muslims need to embrace freedom of speech and freedom of religion. They need to defend - to the death - the rights of non-Muslims to say horrible things about Islam and make really funny movies about Muhammed. They need to stop blaming the west at every opportunity. They need to stop whinging about the police trying to track down all the Muslim nutters in Australia and instead cheer them on. They need to mature, in a hurry. They need to have a public debate about Islam that first acknowledges, then confronts the violent inheritance of Islam, rather than merely saying it doesn't exist. They need to go through the same thing that Christianity went through over the last few centuries, and other religions more recently. Anything less reinforces the victimhood mentality of Muslim terrorists.


Quote:

Or are we simply returning to the old "muslims can never be part of the solution because they have to follow their sinister prophet" argument?

That is my fall-back position. It is up to Muslims to demonstrate otherwise. If they cannot get it right, abandoning Islam is the only option.

freediver wrote on Sep 26^th, 2014 at 7:47pm:

They need to defend - to the death - the rights of non-Muslims to say horrible things about Islam and make really funny movies about Muhammed. They need to stop blaming the west at every opportunity. They need to stop whinging about the police trying to track down all the Muslim nutters in Australia and instead cheer them on. They need to mature, in a hurry. They need to have a public debate about Islam that first acknowledges, then confronts the violent inheritance of Islam, rather than merely saying it doesn't exist. They need to go through the same thing that Christianity went through over the last few centuries, and other religions more recently. Anything less reinforces the victimhood mentality of Muslim terrorists.

Unlike you, muslims are acutely aware that there is a vicious and deeply infectious prejudicial sentiment out there, that only needs a small push to become unstoppable. Most sane people are rational enough to acknowledge that sending 800 police and 2 helicopters to arrest 2 suspects - and giving open invitations for the media to join in (however that can be justified is beyond me) - at the exact time that the completely meaningless and arbitrary "terror alert" indicator is raised from "somewhat panicky" to "completely panicky" - was unnecessarily provocative bordering on the sinister. Its not muslims saying this, its non-muslim commentators all over the place expressing concern about the government and police reaction. And yet you expect muslims to be dutifully falling into line, cheering it on. We have a government with a vested interest in ramping up the panic, and are egged on by a rabid tabloid media. Now is not the time for frothing-at-the-mouth jingoistic flag waving, it is the time for calming the f*ck down. And that means not just the angry muslim youth - but also the government and authorities. Becoming the mindless flag-wavers you are demanding muslims to be will just legitimise more people to barge into islamic schools waving knives, and idiots inventing allegations of assault by "men of middle eastern appearance", and other random attacks on vulnerable people.

Or do you think that the only threat here is from the muslim community?

Quote:

Its not muslims saying this, its non-muslim commentators

You will always find people who say the police over-reacted. Muslims are saying this. You, for example, are saying this.


Quote:

And yet you expect muslims to be dutifully falling into line, cheering it on.

There are about 100 Australian Muslims raping and pillaging their way across the middle east. So yes, I do expect the Australian Muslim community to fall in line instead of whinging about the inconvenience to themselves. I expect them to take the magnitude of this problem seriously.


Quote:

And that means not just the angry muslim youth - but also the government and authorities. Becoming the mindless flag-wavers you are demanding muslims to be

You completely missed the point Gandalf. This is the opposite of what I am asking. I am demanding more than tokenism. If Muslims want to become part of the solution, they need to take active steps against the Australian Jihadis, and their supporters and funders. They need to genuinely embrace freedom of speech, freedom of religion etc.

Oh look, here is another one:


wally1 wrote on Sep 26^th, 2014 at 10:43pm:

Yadda wrote on Sep 26th, 2014 at 9:36pm: I have not heard even one person in the moslem community, in Australia,           refer to Numan Haider as an 'extremist'. Why not ? Today, Numan Haider is being described by many moslems in Australia as a Shaheed   [i.e. as an ISLAMIC warrior who has died fighting infidels]. Sheik Google; Numan Haider praised as a Shaheed Because there is distrust between law enforcement and the Muslim community,I won't be surprised if the cops shot him then made a story up about the kid.

Those cops stabbed themselves in the eye to make Islam look bad.

freediver wrote on Sep 29^th, 2014 at 8:01am:

You will always find people who say the police over-reacted. Muslims are saying this. You, for example, are saying this.

Non-muslims are saying it.

Can you think of a good justification for handing out open invitations to the media for these raid extravaganzas?


freediver wrote on Sep 29^th, 2014 at 8:01am:

here are about 100 Australian Muslims raping and pillaging their way across the middle east.

60 FD - this has been pointed out to you before.


freediver wrote on Sep 29^th, 2014 at 8:01am:

I do expect the Australian Muslim community to fall in line instead of whinging about the inconvenience to themselves. I expect them to take the magnitude of this problem seriously.

I don't see anyone whinging about "inconvenience". I see people urging caution about the potential adverse effects the sort of stunts described above have, and to call for conciliation.

Do you recognise *ANY* potential for threats the other way when society is whipped up into a panic about burqas and mosques - especially when the panic has nothing at all to do with the actual terrorist issue? Do you spare any consideration to the threats to people's rights and freedoms when you suddenly and coincidentally start get people barging into islamic schools waving a knife, or members of our defence force inventing stories about being attacked by "men of middle eastern appearance" - or even an elected member making a completely irrelevant call for the burqa to be banned at parliament house?


freediver wrote on Sep 29^th, 2014 at 8:01am:

If Muslims want to become part of the solution, they need to take active steps against the Australian Jihadis, and their supporters and funders. They need to genuinely embrace freedom of speech, freedom of religion etc.

And you have absolutely no evidence that they are not taking these steps. For people like you, they are always guilty until proven innocent. Your idiotic argument about the siphoning of money at the Malik Fahd school being a proof of terrorist funding with no evidence is a highly pertinent example.

The people who you say have to be "reined in" by the islamic community are people who are known to be in cycles of poverty and crime - drug users, serial criminals etc. Frequently they suffer from mental illness. All the terrorists in Iraq/Syria that we have heard about fit the bill. Yes, they find in islam an outlet, but islam doesn't give them the reason for being criminals. Other people in similar downward socio-economic cycles turn to other crimes - "terrorizing" the Sydney streets with drugs, crime and robberies. These non-muslim "terrorists" are far more of a problem, and we don't try and pin a religion on them to try and explain their criminal ways. These are socio-economic issues, not religious ones. The islamic community is not equipped, nor designed to tackle these deep seated socio-economic issues. They offer a message and spiritual guidance - but as you yourself say, the guidance is only there for people who are willing to accept it. That rules out the hot-heads who insist on turning to these so called "backstreet imams" - frequently in our prisons, or other criminal circles. To keep these sorts of people on the straight path, a mosque offering religious guidance only to those willing to listen, is clearly not the solution. The solution is with policy, politics and above all, funding.

And if you seriously think that all that is needed to fix these deep seated socio-economic issues is for muslim leaders to embrace a bit of freedom of speech, then you are dreaming.

Quote:

Do you recognise *ANY* potential for threats the other way when society is whipped up into a panic about burqas and mosques - especially when the panic has nothing at all to do with the actual terrorist issue?

I think it is the head hackers that people are panicing about.


Quote:

Do you spare any consideration to the threats to people's rights and freedoms when you suddenly and coincidentally start get people barging into islamic schools waving a knife, or members of our defence force inventing stories about being attacked by "men of middle eastern appearance" - or even an elected member making a completely irrelevant call for the burqa to be banned at parliament house?

If he is referring to the full face covering, that is entirely reasonable.


Quote:

And you have absolutely no evidence that they are not taking these steps. For people like you, they are always guilty until proven innocent. Your idiotic argument about the siphoning of money at the Malik Fahd school being a proof of terrorist funding with no evidence is a highly pertinent example.

Evidence, not proof. Many Islamic schools have been involved in fraud and scandal recently.


Quote:

The people who you say have to be "reined in" by the islamic community are people who are known to be in cycles of poverty and crime - drug users, serial criminals etc. Frequently they suffer from mental illness. All the terrorists in Iraq/Syria that we have heard about fit the bill. Yes, they find in islam an outlet, but islam doesn't give them the reason for being criminals.

It gives them a reason to fly halfway round the world to rape and pillage.


Quote:

These non-muslim "terrorists" are far more of a problem

Crap. It is the Muslims that require a multinational military response.


Quote:

The islamic community is not equipped, nor designed to tackle these deep seated socio-economic issues.

It is the fundamental rejection of western values like freedom of speech and freedom of religion that is the problem. The Islamic community is hobbled by Islam in tackling this issue.


Quote:

And if you seriously think that all that is needed to fix these deep seated socio-economic issues is for muslim leaders to embrace a bit of freedom of speech, then you are dreaming.

The entire Muslim community must embrace it. This goes far beyond a few convenient press releases saying how wonderful freedom is.

freediver wrote on Sep 29^th, 2014 at 12:12pm:

Evidence, not proof. Many Islamic schools have been involved in fraud and scandal recently.

It is not evidence of terrorist funding - but I am glad that you are backpeddling slightly - you stated the terrorist funding as fact at the time.


freediver wrote on Sep 29^th, 2014 at 12:12pm:

Crap. It is the Muslims that require a multinational military response.

I'm talking about the threat from our own muslim community. Crimes are committed on Australian streets by non-muslims every day - by criminals "radicalised" by the same social and economic downward spirals. They are far more of a problem through simple weight of numbers. The only difference between the two types is the outlet (religion), not the root cause of their criminality.


freediver wrote on Sep 29^th, 2014 at 12:12pm:

It is the fundamental rejection of western values like freedom of speech and freedom of religion that is the problem.

And as usual you have no evidence that mainstream islam in Australia has any problem with freedom of speech or freedom of religion. It is the extremists on the other side, and their spineless apologists like yourself that clearly *DO* have a problem with these two things - in demanding that a particular group be denied their rightful freedoms - such as worship, dress and even exist in their country of residence.

Quote:

I'm talking about the threat from our own muslim community. Crimes are committed on Australian streets by non-muslims every day - by criminals "radicalised" by the same social and economic downward spirals. They are far more of a problem through simple weight of numbers.

Muslims make up for their minority status with a brutal head hacking ideology. If anything, Muslims are safer in Australia than the middle east because there are so few fellow Muslims to hack their head off over disagreements about Islam. The link between poverty and terrorism was invented to appease the apologists. It did not exist until Muslims started calling fellow Muslims to kill. Crime, prostitution, drugs use - yes, but terrorism - that takes Islam, not poverty.

Every Australian terrorist we have heard about that has joined the fight in Syria/Iraq has a background in poverty and/or criminality.

Know you of any affluent, educated Australian muslims who have joined the jihadists?

I haven't looked into the details of any of them, and doubt you are familiar with many. I do know that many of the terrorists involved in past attacks overseas grew up in a position of relative privilege and with a good education. It is Islam that causes them to become terrorists, not poverty.

freediver wrote on Sep 29^th, 2014 at 6:24pm:

I haven't looked into the details of any of them, and doubt you are familiar with many. I do know that many of the terrorists involved in past attacks overseas grew up in a position of relative privilege and with a good education. It is Islam that causes them to become terrorists, not poverty.

I'd suggest wealth has little to do with it, both FD and G.   I'd suggest it is feelings of alienation.   Young people, feeling rejected by their families and the wider, non-Muslim community, fitting into neither. Their families feel they are not Muslim enough, the wider community too Muslim.   Radical Islam offers them shelter, certainty and a feeling of belonging and community, just as any youth gang does.   We've seen similar patterns in other immigrant communities when their kids have been drawn to youth gangs.  The major difference is that whereas non-Muslim youth gangs offer vicarious excitement through minor crime and perhaps drug dealing, radical Islam offers them excitement through the possibility of Martyrdom.

FD you and your ilk are part of the problem, not the solution.   You help and reject and alienate Muslims because of your prejudice and persecution.  You help drive them into the arms of the radicals.   ::)

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 29^th, 2014 at 6:34pm:

freediver wrote on Sep 29th, 2014 at 6:24pm: I haven't looked into the details of any of them, and doubt you are familiar with many. I do know that many of the terrorists involved in past attacks overseas grew up in a position of relative privilege and with a good education. It is Islam that causes them to become terrorists, not poverty. I'd suggest wealth has little to do with it, both FD and G.   I'd suggest it is feelings of alienation.   Young people, feeling rejected by their families and the wider, non-Muslim community, fitting into neither. Their families feel they are not Muslim enough, the wider community too Muslim.   Radical Islam offers them shelter, certainty and a feeling of belonging and community, just as any youth gang does.   We've seen similar patterns in other immigrant communities when their kids have been drawn to youth gangs.  The major difference is that whereas non-Muslim youth gangs offer vicarious excitement through minor crime and perhaps drug dealing, radical Islam offers them excitement through the possibility of Martyrdom. FD you and your ilk are part of the problem, not the solution.   You help and reject and alienate Muslims because of your prejudice and persecution.  You help drive them into the arms of the radicals.   ::)

So certain Aussies are the blame for radical Islamists? What a stupid post.

mrkamikaze wrote on Sep 29^th, 2014 at 6:37pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 29th, 2014 at 6:34pm: freediver wrote on Sep 29th, 2014 at 6:24pm: I haven't looked into the details of any of them, and doubt you are familiar with many. I do know that many of the terrorists involved in past attacks overseas grew up in a position of relative privilege and with a good education. It is Islam that causes them to become terrorists, not poverty. I'd suggest wealth has little to do with it, both FD and G.   I'd suggest it is feelings of alienation.   Young people, feeling rejected by their families and the wider, non-Muslim community, fitting into neither. Their families feel they are not Muslim enough, the wider community too Muslim.   Radical Islam offers them shelter, certainty and a feeling of belonging and community, just as any youth gang does.   We've seen similar patterns in other immigrant communities when their kids have been drawn to youth gangs.  The major difference is that whereas non-Muslim youth gangs offer vicarious excitement through minor crime and perhaps drug dealing, radical Islam offers them excitement through the possibility of Martyrdom. FD you and your ilk are part of the problem, not the solution.   You help and reject and alienate Muslims because of your prejudice and persecution.  You help drive them into the arms of the radicals.   ::) So certain Aussies are the blame for radical Islamists? What a stupid post.

What a stupid reply.   ::)

Certain Aussies certainly contribute to the problem.  Are you one?   ::)

One cannot ban all schools be they Catholic, Muslim, Public etc etc etc....

Not all Muslims are head-crunchers, just those that did not make the grades at school seem to be....!

I'm neither Muslim nor a Catholic, but grateful I live in a country I can choose and keep my head.

I did nearly lose my head though, long long time ago when pub bands was the norm on Friday nites, those days are long gone, but we were a gruesome lot,  The HeadBangers group.
All you needed was "Substances", a long weekend, a beach nearby and a pub or a pool hall and pinball machines.
We hardly went to school, but got good jobs cos there was plenty then.
It did not matter who you were, there were Turks, Greeks, Italians and the odd Pom or Scott, Male n Female, ying- yang, single mums pension and a caravan out the back, and a V8 Sandman Panel Van, ( with curtains ).

But we all enjoyed one thing in common, "headbanging" to very loud sounds in "African" beat.

There never a word to cause what we see today.

That was "school".

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 29^th, 2014 at 6:34pm:

freediver wrote on Sep 29th, 2014 at 6:24pm: I haven't looked into the details of any of them, and doubt you are familiar with many. I do know that many of the terrorists involved in past attacks overseas grew up in a position of relative privilege and with a good education. It is Islam that causes them to become terrorists, not poverty. I'd suggest wealth has little to do with it, both FD and G.   I'd suggest it is feelings of alienation.   Young people, feeling rejected by their families and the wider, non-Muslim community, fitting into neither. Their families feel they are not Muslim enough, the wider community too Muslim.   Radical Islam offers them shelter, certainty and a feeling of belonging and community, just as any youth gang does.   We've seen similar patterns in other immigrant communities when their kids have been drawn to youth gangs.  The major difference is that whereas non-Muslim youth gangs offer vicarious excitement through minor crime and perhaps drug dealing, radical Islam offers them excitement through the possibility of Martyrdom. FD you and your ilk are part of the problem, not the solution.   You help and reject and alienate Muslims because of your prejudice and persecution.  You help drive them into the arms of the radicals.   ::)

that is nonsense.

how 'muslim' did they families want them to be ?

how 'muslim' do their friends want them to be ?

what has that to do with child brides, money rorted through schools to help terrorists, large scale terror attacks we have topped so far........

I'm getting sick of hearing about Muslims.

Why did we bring them here?

To be camel jockeys, I believe.

freediver wrote on Sep 29^th, 2014 at 9:45pm:

To be camel jockeys, I believe.

We just brought trouble to our country.

I heard parliament last week:
They were talking about spending over $650 million on
ant-terrorism fighting to be spent by all the police forces.

To me that's just money that we shouldn't have to spend -
especially if we hadn't allowed all these Muslims to come here.

We give Indonesia over $10 million per week so the Indonesians can build Islamic schools,at the same time we are cutting education funding in Australia.

Sprintcyclist wrote on Sep 29^th, 2014 at 8:55pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 29th, 2014 at 6:34pm: freediver wrote on Sep 29th, 2014 at 6:24pm: I haven't looked into the details of any of them, and doubt you are familiar with many. I do know that many of the terrorists involved in past attacks overseas grew up in a position of relative privilege and with a good education. It is Islam that causes them to become terrorists, not poverty. I'd suggest wealth has little to do with it, both FD and G.   I'd suggest it is feelings of alienation.   Young people, feeling rejected by their families and the wider, non-Muslim community, fitting into neither. Their families feel they are not Muslim enough, the wider community too Muslim.   Radical Islam offers them shelter, certainty and a feeling of belonging and community, just as any youth gang does.   We've seen similar patterns in other immigrant communities when their kids have been drawn to youth gangs.  The major difference is that whereas non-Muslim youth gangs offer vicarious excitement through minor crime and perhaps drug dealing, radical Islam offers them excitement through the possibility of Martyrdom. FD you and your ilk are part of the problem, not the solution.   You help and reject and alienate Muslims because of your prejudice and persecution.  You help drive them into the arms of the radicals.   ::) that is nonsense.

Why?  I've pointed out we have seen similar situations in previous immigrant groups.   Italian parents wanted their kids to be as Italian as they were, Greek parents wanted their kids to be as Greek as they were, etc., etc.  Muslim parents want their kids to be as Muslim as they are but their kids are lured away by the easy Western lifestyle which is more relaxed.

Unfortunately, the surrounding Westernised society finds the kids too Muslim and so they are caught betwixt and between.   Radical Islamic groups prey on such adrift kids.

Bobby. wrote on Sep 29^th, 2014 at 9:31pm:

I'm getting sick of hearing about Muslims. Why did we bring them here?

They were here from ~1788, Bobby.   ::)

Baronvonrort wrote on Sep 29^th, 2014 at 10:18pm:

We give Indonesia over $10 million per week so the Indonesians can build Islamic schools,at the same time we are cutting education funding in Australia.

You want to influence Indonesian society, Baron, you have to pay to do so...   ::)

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 29^th, 2014 at 6:34pm:

freediver wrote on Sep 29th, 2014 at 6:24pm: I haven't looked into the details of any of them, and doubt you are familiar with many. I do know that many of the terrorists involved in past attacks overseas grew up in a position of relative privilege and with a good education. It is Islam that causes them to become terrorists, not poverty. I'd suggest wealth has little to do with it, both FD and G.   I'd suggest it is feelings of alienation.   Young people, feeling rejected by their families and the wider, non-Muslim community, fitting into neither. Their families feel they are not Muslim enough, the wider community too Muslim.   Radical Islam offers them shelter, certainty and a feeling of belonging and community, just as any youth gang does.   We've seen similar patterns in other immigrant communities when their kids have been drawn to youth gangs.  The major difference is that whereas non-Muslim youth gangs offer vicarious excitement through minor crime and perhaps drug dealing, radical Islam offers them excitement through the possibility of Martyrdom. FD you and your ilk are part of the problem, not the solution.   You help and reject and alienate Muslims because of your prejudice and persecution.  You help drive them into the arms of the radicals.   ::)

this is unmitigated crap.
they are too muslim for the wider Australian community - so they become even more muslim, even more f*ked in the head. And we drive them to it because we would like them, instead, to assimilate to us.  So now they are TOO muslim even for their own families. But Islam has nothing to do with it, it’s my fault for saying they should turn their backs on Islam completely. THAT makes them want to kill and die for Islam. I reject a creed that turns people into suicidal and homicidal bastards but that’s worse in Brain’s eyes than actually being those murdering bastards.
You are completely unmoored, Brain.

freediver wrote on Sep 29^th, 2014 at 6:24pm:

I do know that many of the terrorists involved in past attacks overseas grew up in a position of relative privilege and with a good education.

I know that - which is why I made it clear I am only talking about Australian terrorists. Time and time again these people come from the same demographic - lower class urban, often in a cycle of crime and poverty. From everything I have seen, the bozos joining Syria are just more of the same.

polite_gandalf wrote on Sep 30^th, 2014 at 8:14am:

freediver wrote on Sep 29th, 2014 at 6:24pm: I do know that many of the terrorists involved in past attacks overseas grew up in a position of relative privilege and with a good education. I know that - which is why I made it clear I am only talking about Australian terrorists. Time and time again these people come from the same demographic - lower class urban, often in a cycle of crime and poverty. From everything I have seen, the bozos joining Syria are just more of the same.

This is simply agit-prop. The co-sponsor of the recent outreach bbq was the wealthy father of one of those bozos.

As I recall that guy had been diagnosed with a mental illness and had been involved in drugs and drug crime.

One one hand, we have Brian with a fairly comprehensive and logical explanation why Muslim youth become alienated.  On the other, we have Gandalf with a fairly simplistic but still logical explanation.  Finally we have Soren with his bigotry and prejudice.

I know which one I pick.  ;D ;D ;D :D :D :D ;D ;D ;D

Poll added.   ;D ;D ;D :D :D :D

Bobby. wrote on Sep 25^th, 2014 at 9:08pm:

Do we give Islamic schools money?

Our "secular" state gives money to all religious schools. However John Howard ensured that some Christian Brethren schools would get more funding than schools of other sects.

Tony Abbott has ensured that federal funding will be available to religious counsellors (including Muslims) instead of qualified psychologists or secular counsellors.

polite_gandalf wrote on Sep 30^th, 2014 at 9:38am:

As I recall that guy had been diagnosed with a mental illness and had been involved in drugs and drug crime.

Sharouf the was the supposed schizophrenic.
The other one, Elomar, comes from a wealthy family.
Disadvantage is a stupid arsecovering excuse, used to evade responsibility.

polite_gandalf wrote on Sep 30^th, 2014 at 8:14am:

freediver wrote on Sep 29th, 2014 at 6:24pm: I do know that many of the terrorists involved in past attacks overseas grew up in a position of relative privilege and with a good education. I know that - which is why I made it clear I am only talking about Australian terrorists. Time and time again these people come from the same demographic - lower class urban, often in a cycle of crime and poverty. From everything I have seen, the bozos joining Syria are just more of the same.

What is "everything you have seen"? One case? Two?


|dev|null wrote on Sep 30^th, 2014 at 10:25am:

One one hand, we have Brian with a fairly comprehensive and logical explanation why Muslim youth become alienated.  On the other, we have Gandalf with a fairly simplistic but still logical explanation.  Finally we have Soren with his bigotry and prejudice. I know which one I pick.  ;D ;D ;D :D :D :D ;D ;D ;D

Keep trying Gandalf. Maybe one day you'll match Brian's understanding.

Soren wrote on Sep 30^th, 2014 at 2:26pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Sep 30th, 2014 at 9:38am: As I recall that guy had been diagnosed with a mental illness and had been involved in drugs and drug crime. Sharouf the was the supposed schizophrenic. The other one, Elomar, comes from a wealthy family. Disadvantage is a stupid arsecovering excuse, used to evade responsibility.

True, old chap, but if it wasn’t for madness, where would our prestigious University of Balogney graduates be?

Where there was ego, dear boy. Discontent has it’s civilisations.

And I, for one, would die for your right to say it.

Taipan wrote on Sep 25^th, 2014 at 7:42pm:

Don't want them to mix. Just want them to leave our country ASAP.

Oh, I know. Just look at the current Liberal front bench. How many of them went to a mainstream school?

I’m with the Jesuits. Give me a boy until he turns seven, and I’ll show you the man.

Ask the old boy which school he sends his sons to so they don’t have to mix. Still, that’s his right in a Lutheran society.

I, for one, would fight to the death for his right to be a jolly elitist old bore.

We grew here, they flew here. I blame Islam.

Ban them.

freediver wrote on Sep 30^th, 2014 at 7:29pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Sep 30th, 2014 at 8:14am: freediver wrote on Sep 29th, 2014 at 6:24pm: I do know that many of the terrorists involved in past attacks overseas grew up in a position of relative privilege and with a good education. I know that - which is why I made it clear I am only talking about Australian terrorists. Time and time again these people come from the same demographic - lower class urban, often in a cycle of crime and poverty. From everything I have seen, the bozos joining Syria are just more of the same. What is "everything you have seen"? One case? Two?

Exactly. What would G know? You have the views of Abu and Falah.

Typical.

Karnal wrote on Sep 30^th, 2014 at 8:00pm:

Soren wrote on Sep 30th, 2014 at 2:26pm: polite_gandalf wrote on Sep 30th, 2014 at 9:38am: As I recall that guy had been diagnosed with a mental illness and had been involved in drugs and drug crime. Sharouf the was the supposed schizophrenic. The other one, Elomar, comes from a wealthy family. Disadvantage is a stupid arsecovering excuse, used to evade responsibility. True, old chap, but if it wasn’t for madness, where would our prestigious University of Balogney graduates be? Where there was ego, dear boy. Discontent has it’s civilisations. And I, for one, would die for your right to say it.

You are suffering from fate neurosis, a form of repetition compulsion, PB.

Karnal wrote on Sep 30^th, 2014 at 8:22pm:

freediver wrote on Sep 30th, 2014 at 7:29pm: polite_gandalf wrote on Sep 30th, 2014 at 8:14am: freediver wrote on Sep 29th, 2014 at 6:24pm: I do know that many of the terrorists involved in past attacks overseas grew up in a position of relative privilege and with a good education. I know that - which is why I made it clear I am only talking about Australian terrorists. Time and time again these people come from the same demographic - lower class urban, often in a cycle of crime and poverty. From everything I have seen, the bozos joining Syria are just more of the same. What is "everything you have seen"? One case? Two? Exactly. What would G know? You have the views of Abu and Falah. Typical.

That's a step up from "only one". Now, can you add Malik to the list?

freediver wrote on Sep 30^th, 2014 at 9:49pm:

Karnal wrote on Sep 30th, 2014 at 8:22pm: freediver wrote on Sep 30th, 2014 at 7:29pm: polite_gandalf wrote on Sep 30th, 2014 at 8:14am: freediver wrote on Sep 29th, 2014 at 6:24pm: I do know that many of the terrorists involved in past attacks overseas grew up in a position of relative privilege and with a good education. I know that - which is why I made it clear I am only talking about Australian terrorists. Time and time again these people come from the same demographic - lower class urban, often in a cycle of crime and poverty. From everything I have seen, the bozos joining Syria are just more of the same. What is "everything you have seen"? One case? Two? Exactly. What would G know? You have the views of Abu and Falah. Typical. That's a step up from "only one". Now, can you add Malik to the list?

But of course. We can add G to that list too, FD.

When you’re done with him.

That’s four so far. Any more?

lol as if FD has any idea what Malik said. Everything he's claimed about him to me has been wrong - like that he identified as a shia - when in fact he said he doesn't identify with any islamic sect.

polite_gandalf wrote on Sep 30^th, 2014 at 11:09pm:

lol as if FD has any idea what Malik said. Everything he's claimed about him to me has been wrong - like that he identified as a shia - when in fact he said he doesn't identify with any islamic sect.

Abu Rashid did not claim to belong to any sect he said he was a muslim, he didn't like the shia.
::)

polite_gandalf wrote on Sep 30^th, 2014 at 11:09pm:

lol as if FD has any idea what Malik said. Everything he's claimed about him to me has been wrong - like that he identified as a shia - when in fact he said he doesn't identify with any islamic sect.

That’s not important What’s important is that FD has the Freeedom to say it.

If Malik doesn’t have the Freeeedom to think what FD says, that’s Islam’s problem.

Ban them.

Karnal wrote on Sep 30^th, 2014 at 10:04pm:

freediver wrote on Sep 30th, 2014 at 9:49pm: Karnal wrote on Sep 30th, 2014 at 8:22pm: freediver wrote on Sep 30th, 2014 at 7:29pm: polite_gandalf wrote on Sep 30th, 2014 at 8:14am: freediver wrote on Sep 29th, 2014 at 6:24pm: I do know that many of the terrorists involved in past attacks overseas grew up in a position of relative privilege and with a good education. I know that - which is why I made it clear I am only talking about Australian terrorists. Time and time again these people come from the same demographic - lower class urban, often in a cycle of crime and poverty. From everything I have seen, the bozos joining Syria are just more of the same. What is "everything you have seen"? One case? Two? Exactly. What would G know? You have the views of Abu and Falah. Typical. That's a step up from "only one". Now, can you add Malik to the list? But of course. We can add G to that list too, FD. When you’re done with him. That’s four so far. Any more?

Abu. Falah. Malik. Lestat. Gandalf. Three of those have modded this board. Not sure if Gaybriel was a Muslim. Then there are Hot Breath and Team Murdoch - there have been a few others who carried on like them, though they were generally willing to talk about Islam to some extent rather than confining themselves to the role of cheerleader.

freediver wrote on Oct 3^rd, 2014 at 9:07pm:

Abu. Falah. Malik. Lestat. Gandalf. Three of those have modded this board. Not sure if Gaybriel was a Muslim. Then there are Hot Breath and Team Murdoch - there have been a few others who carried on like them, though they were generally willing to talk about Islam to some extent rather than confining themselves to the role of cheerleader.

I'm disappointed.  I feel left out, FD.  BTW, if you're suggesting HB is a Muslim, that will come as quite a surprise to his mother!   ;D

It usually does.

I left out wally.

freediver wrote on Oct 4^th, 2014 at 8:39am:

It usually does.

You don't think I'd have noticed?


Quote:

I left out wally.

Yes, poor little Wally, he all too often gets forgotten in the rush.    ;D