Post by Team Knight Errant Grappler on Sep 6th, 2014 at 12:49pm
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General Discussion >> Federal Politics >> The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1409965652 Message started by imcrookonit on Sep 6th, 2014 at 11:07am |
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Title: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates Post by imcrookonit on Sep 6th, 2014 at 11:07am
Backbench Liberals pushing for flexible weekend pay rates
The Australian September 05, 2014 EMPLOYERS would hire more young workers within months if the federal government reformed workplace laws to free up penalty rates, Liberal MPs are claiming, as they renew a push for changes. Liberal backbencher Alex Hawke argued that “Sundays are no longer sacrosanct” as he spoke up for a contentious reform backed by some of his colleagues. The remarks triggered a backlash from unions but express the views of many Liberals who believe small businesses are struggling and regional towns suffering from the cost of paying workers on weekends. :P “If you change penalty rates now, in six to 12 months you’d start to see an impact of more small businesses taking on more young people,” Mr Hawke told the ABC. “There’s no real reason or modern defence for paying such a loading on the same trading day as any other.” ACTU national assistant secretary Tim Lyons said the Liberal MP was a “wing nut” for suggesting it was “no big deal” for people to go to work at night or on Sundays. There is a groundswell within the Coalition, however, for changes to penalty rates. :( NSW Liberal Angus Taylor told The Australian in March that employers in his electorate, around the southern NSW city of Goulburn, were forced to close on Sundays because they could not afford to pay penalty rates. Victorian Liberal Dan Tehan has called for a debate on penalty rates on the grounds that the current rules were based on an outdated approach to the way Australians worked. The MPs believe their calls for action are consistent with Tony Abbott’s pledge that workers’ pay and conditions were safe under the Coalition. |
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Title: Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates Post by imcrookonit on Sep 6th, 2014 at 11:10am
Big business attack on penalty rates based on lies >:(
05 September, 2014 | Media Release Business leader Kate Carnell has been caught out blatantly misleading the community on the critical issue of penalty rates today. ACTU Secretary Dave Oliver said claims by the Australian Chamber of Commerce and Industry (ACCI) CEO that there is a direct link between penalty rates and jobs is misleading. “The Fair Work Commission said Sunday penalty rates do not have a significant effect on Sunday employment,” said Mr Oliver. “It also said the employers’ evidence did not reliably show that existing Sunday penalty rates negatively impact employment or that removing them would provide any significant benefit to business or job seekers. “Ms Carnell would know that employment in the restaurant industry has grown above the national average since 2000.” Mr Oliver said employers have been unable to present any evidence to back up their claims that cutting penalty rates is linked to higher employment. “The Fair Work Commission highlighted that employers couldn’t provide a shred of evidence that more people were employed when penalty rates were removed or reduced in New South Wales, Victoria and South Australia in the past. “If Ms Carnell is genuinely interested in jobs growth and addressing youth unemployment, why isn’t she calling on the Government to reverse its decision to cut more than one billion dollars out of skills and training in the budget? “Why isn’t she calling on the Government to invest in apprenticeships and traineeships instead of cutting them? “Why isn’t she calling on the Government to outline a jobs plan for the nation at a time when we are seeing huge numbers of jobs, across a range of sectors, go offshore? “The answer to all of this is that Ms Carnell is only genuinely interested in one thing – cutting penalty rates and cutting the pay packets of millions of Australians to boost employer profits,” said Mr Oliver. Key facts and findings of the Fair Work Commission Sunday penalty rates in the Restaurant Award are neutral in respect of productivity and the regulatory burden because they do not significantly affect business turnover Employment costs associated with Sunday penalty rates do not have a significant effect on employment on Sundays The Sunday penalty rates provisions are not considered to have economy-wide effects There is a need to provide additional remuneration for people working unsociable hours The Restaurant Award currently provides additional remuneration for working on Sundays and should continue to do so |
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Title: Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates Post by Team Knight Errant Grappler on Sep 6th, 2014 at 11:11am
Bullshit - they'd simply pay their existing workers less.
It seems it is not only your average small business person, but also your darkened mindscape Liberal MP who has no idea how to begin to approach reality. Anyone for more welfare for 'business' so people with no idea can continue to make heaps of money? The only 'jobs growth' is in the unemployment and under-employment queues..... Time for the adults to take charge from both Parties, I think..... |
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Title: Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates Post by Swagman on Sep 6th, 2014 at 11:18am
ACTU national assistant secretary Tim Lyons has a job so he doesn't give a rat's arse about the unemployed....employed
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Title: Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates Post by Team Knight Errant Grappler on Sep 6th, 2014 at 12:37pm Swagman wrote on Sep 6th, 2014 at 11:18am:
So having a job means that nobody in that category gives a rat's about the unemployed. You could well be right... but why restrict it to one? What is ToJo doing for the unemployed other than enhancing their numbers and offering them lower pay for work (while fattening up on the public purse for life). |
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Title: Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates Post by Dnarever on Sep 6th, 2014 at 12:41pm Quote:
No they are not - I see no call to increase rates. They are all asking for lower rates - not flexibility. They want to reduce peoples pay rates. |
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Title: Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates Post by Dnarever on Sep 6th, 2014 at 12:44pm Quote:
How stupid do they think people really are ? Nobody is stupid enough to believe this one. They think they can take action to reduce employees take home pay and working conditions and that doing this does not breach their commitment to not make change that will impact pay and conditions. Really !!! Anyone stupid enough to swallow that turkey. |
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Title: Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates Post by Team Knight Errant Grappler on Sep 6th, 2014 at 12:49pm |
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Title: Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates Post by Dnarever on Sep 6th, 2014 at 8:30pm Swagman wrote on Sep 6th, 2014 at 11:18am:
Tony Abbott and Joe Hockey both have jobs so they ................ don't give a rat's arse about the unemployed....employed ????? Sorry but I don't really see an obvious connection between being employed and caring about unemployment. In Tim's case it is his job to care. Tony and Joe well probably not. |
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Title: Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates Post by ImSpartacus2 on Sep 6th, 2014 at 9:35pm
These b@stards have full on started a class war ever since they got into govt and we need to fight back instead of just whinge about them. There must be somewhere we can go to find out which businesses are calling for the abolition of penalty rates because I for one don't want to do business with those b@stards.
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Title: Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates Post by St George of the Puissant HLT on Sep 6th, 2014 at 9:48pm
Hardly Normal?
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Title: Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates Post by John S on Sep 7th, 2014 at 12:31am
If a coffee shop or restaurant has a average of 200 customer for a days trading and the business employs 4 staff and penalty rate is cut to single time and the business still get 200 customers would the business employ more staff.
poll added |
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Title: Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates Post by Kytro on Sep 7th, 2014 at 12:49am John S wrote on Sep 7th, 2014 at 12:31am:
This depends a great deal on the situation, but in most cases, it seems unlikely. What would be the point in employing more staff? |
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Title: Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates Post by John S on Sep 7th, 2014 at 8:15am Kytro wrote on Sep 7th, 2014 at 12:49am:
The main argument that people are putting up, that want penalty rate cut for weekend work, is the business would employ more people, and I just want to know how business would employ more people if they didn't have to pay penalty rates for weekend or late night work Quote:
I notice in the OP that they had to go to Goulburn to find business that is close on a Sunday and prepared to open if penalty rates were cut. Couldn't they find a business in Sydney that would do the same thing? |
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Title: Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates Post by greggerypeccary on Sep 7th, 2014 at 8:26am wrote on Sep 6th, 2014 at 11:07am:
No, they wouldn't. Why would they? |
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Title: Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates Post by Swagman on Sep 7th, 2014 at 1:08pm John S wrote on Sep 7th, 2014 at 12:31am:
So if you were unemployed you wouldn't work for single time at night or weekends but would gladly accept a tax-payer handout? :( Why am I not surprised? |
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Title: Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates Post by John S on Sep 7th, 2014 at 1:27pm Swagman wrote on Sep 7th, 2014 at 1:08pm:
Where is there anywhere in my post that says I get tax-payer handouts? Now stupid answer the question how will cutting penalty rates for weekend work bring down the unemployment level? |
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Title: Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates Post by Team Knight Errant Grappler on Sep 7th, 2014 at 1:40pm Swagman wrote on Sep 7th, 2014 at 1:08pm:
You'd rather the shopkeeper cop a taxpayer handout for not paying properly? You want the business and the money - you work for it. You don't want to pay penalty rates.. work those hours yourself. |
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Title: Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates Post by Swagman on Sep 7th, 2014 at 3:07pm John S wrote on Sep 7th, 2014 at 1:27pm:
Speaking of stupidity.... why don't you just answer my question first? :D |
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Title: Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates Post by Swagman on Sep 7th, 2014 at 3:13pm Grappler Racist Filth wrote on Sep 7th, 2014 at 1:40pm:
You'll need to explain that one a bit more Grappler? :-? Grappler Racist Filth wrote on Sep 7th, 2014 at 1:40pm:
That's what happens now, and in part, answers John S's eloquently put question directed at me.... :-? |
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Title: Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates Post by Dnarever on Sep 7th, 2014 at 3:46pm Swagman wrote on Sep 7th, 2014 at 1:08pm:
You normally argue that many people would be excited by the prospect of being able to work for less pay? You also argue frequently that if you don't like the conditions you can just leave the job. We now see you facing the reality that for many they have no choice at all - they need a job and therefore have to just cop it. It seems that all that wonderful flexibility with people who prefer to work nights and weekends for less pay b/s isn't held as genuinely as you have indicated in the past. Now we have people being bullied to work inflexible hours and not being paid properly for their time. You conservatives need to make up your minds either there is a huge pool of people out there excited about working the worst hours for less pay or there isn't. I think I know the answer. |
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Title: Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates Post by crocodile on Sep 7th, 2014 at 6:54pm John S wrote on Sep 7th, 2014 at 12:31am:
It's not quite so simple. It depends whether the business faces competition from other businesses that lower their retail price since the marginal cost of production would decrease. If this should occur and the business grows its market share or the demand for coffee increases due to cheaper prices then there would be scope for increasing staff levels. |
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Title: Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates Post by Dnarever on Sep 7th, 2014 at 7:13pm crocodile wrote on Sep 7th, 2014 at 6:54pm:
You would probably find that if one of the competitors reduced their rates the others would follow and because they all understand this they more than likely would all keep their prices up and take the increased profit. They would all get the same advantage. The overall point shown here though is that these guys are not short on staff because of penalty rates - the options relate to demand change or additional opportunity. Of course since the change would still maintain the same competitive status quo they could always do the same things with no change. |
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Title: Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates Post by Team Froggie on Sep 7th, 2014 at 7:23pm Grappler Racist Filth wrote on Sep 7th, 2014 at 1:40pm:
Exactly..... |
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Title: Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates Post by Dnarever on Sep 7th, 2014 at 7:44pm Swagman wrote on Sep 7th, 2014 at 1:08pm:
Why not just take a non shift job instead ? |
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Title: Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates Post by Team Knight Errant Grappler on Sep 7th, 2014 at 8:29pm Swagman wrote on Sep 7th, 2014 at 3:13pm:
Can't handle a business under the proper rules and pay rates.. turns to Mummy/Daddy (Muddy) government for enforcement of change that will give handout to owner. I thought the Rabid Right here were dedicated to the 'free market' system.... yet the moment it gets too hard they run to Big Muddy |
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Title: Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates Post by Team Knight Errant Grappler on Sep 7th, 2014 at 8:32pm Dnarever wrote on Sep 7th, 2014 at 7:44pm:
Yeah - plenty of jobs out there for those that want to get off their arse and go get one.. employers are just falling over themselves to offer you the best deal - read this strand for proof! |
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Title: Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates Post by crocodile on Sep 7th, 2014 at 10:23pm Dnarever wrote on Sep 7th, 2014 at 7:13pm:
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Title: Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates Post by Swagman on Sep 8th, 2014 at 12:00pm Lobo wrote on Sep 7th, 2014 at 7:23pm:
You don't want to work without penalty rates then you go and work somewhere else.... |
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Title: Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates Post by life_goes_on on Sep 8th, 2014 at 12:07pm
No penalty rates, then I'd refuse Saturday or Sunday work.
Even with penalty rates in place, we often have jobs on the weekend that get canned because they aren't able to raise the number of workers required. Most people have absolutely had it after working 50+ hours Monday to Friday - especially when you add to that the 2, 3 or 4 hours travel time a day. |
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Title: Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates Post by greggerypeccary on Sep 8th, 2014 at 12:10pm crocodile wrote on Sep 7th, 2014 at 6:54pm:
And, back in the real world: if the demand for coffee did increase, due to cheaper prices (which is a huge stretch of the imagination in the first place), the existing employees would just have to work harder (for less money). When faced with the choice of a) pocketing the extra profits or, b) employing more staff, most small business owners will opt for option a). They're not in it to make friends: they're in it to make money. |
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Title: Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates Post by Swagman on Sep 8th, 2014 at 12:18pm Grappler Racist Filth wrote on Sep 7th, 2014 at 8:29pm:
Incorrect. The only person getting a handout is the worker getting paid double for the same job. It's not a free market though when the price of labour is artificially doubled regardless of the price of product or service. The business is forced to lower its margin to compete. All this achieves is that many businesses will not open on Sundays and that's exactly why potential jobs for the unemployed are being lost (there you go Wisey...the answer to your question as well) :-? |
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Title: Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates Post by greggerypeccary on Sep 8th, 2014 at 12:33pm Swagman wrote on Sep 8th, 2014 at 12:18pm:
And, back in the real world: if penalty rates were abolished, thus allowing more businesses to open on Sundays, most of those employers would demand that the existing employees do the extra work. Abolishing penalty rates won't create jobs: all it will achieve is a decrease in the existing employees' wages, and an increase in the time they spend at work. And, with less money in their pockets, thousands of low paid workers won't be buying a new TV or iPhone every year. Sales will drop. More people will be made unemployed. And, so it goes ... |
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Title: Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates Post by Swagman on Sep 8th, 2014 at 12:50pm greggerypeccary wrote on Sep 8th, 2014 at 12:33pm:
Then that would be overtime Greggery. If the work is unskilled then the employer would be more likely to employ someone on single time than pay an existing employee overtime. If there's no-one to fill the job the overtime payment is not a 'penalty' rate but a reward payment. |
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Title: Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates Post by crocodile on Sep 8th, 2014 at 12:54pm greggerypeccary wrote on Sep 8th, 2014 at 12:10pm:
So are you suggesting that price signals have no effect on demand. |
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Title: Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates Post by Dnarever on Sep 8th, 2014 at 1:05pm greggerypeccary wrote on Sep 8th, 2014 at 12:33pm:
I think this is a part of the problem. If a business is closed on Sunday the reason isn't going to be penalty rates. Removing penalties will not encourage any business to open on a week end. If there is sufficient demand for the business to open then penalty rates do not matter and if there is not sufficient demand then penalty rates still make no difference. most of those employers would demand that the existing employees do the extra work. In some cases this would be correct. However the big impact is not with more business open on week ends it is with the current business already open on week ends paying less to their employees and giving those employees no option at all. |
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Title: Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates Post by Dnarever on Sep 8th, 2014 at 1:09pm crocodile wrote on Sep 8th, 2014 at 12:54pm:
What price signals ? I would think with coffee the demand is very significant anyway and not real likely to dramatically increase due to anything related to penalty rates. |
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Title: Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates Post by greggerypeccary on Sep 8th, 2014 at 1:10pm Swagman wrote on Sep 8th, 2014 at 12:50pm:
To avoid overtime rates, the extra work will be given to the casual employees. Many, if not most, employees in the hospitality industry are casuals anyway, and under their Modern Award they are not paid overtime rates. Every way you look at it, in the real world, abolishing penalty rates will not result in businesses employing more staff. |
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Title: Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates Post by Dnarever on Sep 8th, 2014 at 1:12pm Quote:
I think that is being very kind - maybe Label a filthy grub more accurately. |
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Title: Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates Post by greggerypeccary on Sep 8th, 2014 at 1:26pm Swagman wrote on Sep 8th, 2014 at 12:50pm:
Many (if not most) employees in the hospitality industry are casuals. These workers are exempt from overtime payments in both the National Modern Award, and in their respective state awards (e.g. Restaurant, Tearoom and Catering Workers’ WA Award). As I have already said, if businesses decided to open on Sundays, the additional work will be given to the existing casual employees, with no requirement to pay any extra. Abolishing penalty rates won't create any jobs. |
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Title: Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates Post by Swagman on Sep 8th, 2014 at 1:41pm Dnarever wrote on Sep 8th, 2014 at 1:09pm:
So you would be happy to pay double the price for a coffee on Sunday? :-? |
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Title: Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates Post by greggerypeccary on Sep 8th, 2014 at 1:46pm Swagman wrote on Sep 8th, 2014 at 1:41pm:
Penalty rates are in place right now, and we don't pay double for coffee on Sundays. Sensible businesses factor in penalty rates, overtime, etc. If penalty rates are abolished, the prices will remain the same, and no extra jobs will be created: the owners will pocket the profits, and the casual staff will be asked to work additional hours (on their usual rate of pay). |
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Title: Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates Post by Swagman on Sep 8th, 2014 at 1:47pm greggerypeccary wrote on Sep 8th, 2014 at 1:10pm:
Your last paragraph contradicts your first one... ;D Extra 'casual' work would be created by your own admission Greggy. |
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Title: Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates Post by greggerypeccary on Sep 8th, 2014 at 1:48pm Swagman wrote on Sep 8th, 2014 at 1:47pm:
I suggest you read it again: "will not result in businesses employing more staff." The existing casuals will do more work. That does not mean that people on the dole will be given a job. Not sure why you don't understand that. |
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Title: Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates Post by crocodile on Sep 8th, 2014 at 1:52pm Dnarever wrote on Sep 8th, 2014 at 1:09pm:
I'm not a coffee expert. What you're saying is the polar opposite of accepted theory. If demand was significant then so would be the price. If the price is already above or at the market clearing rate, a reduction would most certainly increase demand. If the price today is below the clearing rate you would see prices increase quick smart until the clearing rate is reached. Either way, if the marginal cost of production is lowered by smaller input costs this will be reflected in the retail price ( coffee being a reasonably elastic supply commodity I assume ). If production costs stay as they are so will the retail cost. |
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Title: Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates Post by Swagman on Sep 8th, 2014 at 1:53pm greggerypeccary wrote on Sep 8th, 2014 at 1:46pm:
Because the price of a coffee is subject to competition. There is no coffee regulator demanding that the price must be double on a Sunday because it's Sunday? greggerypeccary wrote on Sep 8th, 2014 at 1:46pm:
Yes, because they have no choice. |
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Title: Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates Post by greggerypeccary on Sep 8th, 2014 at 1:58pm Swagman wrote on Sep 8th, 2014 at 1:53pm:
Your point? |
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Title: Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates Post by Swagman on Sep 8th, 2014 at 2:06pm greggerypeccary wrote on Sep 8th, 2014 at 1:58pm:
It's the law (currently) so financial forecasting / business planning should include all cost factors including penalty rates. |
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Title: Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates Post by Team Knight Errant Grappler on Sep 8th, 2014 at 2:13pm
Instead of looking at your Sunday costs and going into shock, a business needs to be looking at its overall costs over a period of time and take into account all factors.
I had a manager once who couldn't get rid of me fast enough, when I was doing relief on $2000 a week (in 1992) - what he forgot to factor in was that the jobs I did actually cost more to run in the ordinary schedule because I was super-efficient, and that my overall hourly rate of pay was actually lower, despite a nominally higher rate, due to MY efficiency. DUM AS!!! Many 'business' people simply cannot do simple maths or have any idea of concepts... even when they wear a silk suit and a blue tie and take in millions.. DUM AS!! If they didn't cop subsidies, including chopping pay rates for their 'serfs' - they could not survive in the real world, despite all their tax dodges and so forth. What if they paid no business tax but the business paid total income tax like you and I, and received no handouts but had to fully pay their way? How do you reckon they'd go then? |
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Title: Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates Post by greggerypeccary on Sep 8th, 2014 at 2:14pm Swagman wrote on Sep 8th, 2014 at 2:06pm:
Indeed. And, it does. Thus, we don't pay double on Sundays. And, if the penalty rates are removed, the price will remain the same and no extra jobs will be created: the business owner will pocket the extra profits and the existing casual staff will do the extra hours. |
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Title: Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates Post by greggerypeccary on Sep 8th, 2014 at 2:16pm crocodile wrote on Sep 8th, 2014 at 1:52pm:
This is incredibly naive. |
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Title: Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates Post by Swagman on Sep 8th, 2014 at 3:02pm Grappler Racist Filth wrote on Sep 8th, 2014 at 2:13pm:
So what happened to make you champion inefficiency? ;D Grappler Racist Filth wrote on Sep 8th, 2014 at 2:13pm:
You are making a good argument there for AWAs... :) |
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Title: Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates Post by John S on Sep 8th, 2014 at 3:17pm
As politicians and andrei (where is andrei) keep saying we all live in a 24/7 economy now, so how about if we have ALL business and government offices open 24/7 and everyone works for single time don't matter what time of day or night you work.
You could go to the bank and apply for a home loan at 11.00pm go to straight to medicare office after you have finish at the specialist and put a claim in at 2.00am. School would be open 24/7 so there would be less vandalism saving taxpayers money. |
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Title: Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates Post by crocodile on Sep 8th, 2014 at 3:47pm greggerypeccary wrote on Sep 8th, 2014 at 2:16pm:
Perhaps you could explain in sound economic terms just why it is naïve. |
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Title: Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates Post by greggerypeccary on Sep 8th, 2014 at 4:11pm crocodile wrote on Sep 8th, 2014 at 3:47pm:
It's incredibly naive, because you are talking in sound economic (theoretical) terms. Your 'Introduction to Economics' unit at University is all well and good, however, once you've been in the real world for a few decades you'll see things differently. This is how things work in the real world. If penalty rates were abolished: - employees are paid less (obviously) - sales figures remain the same (obviously) - the price of coffee remains the same (no rational reason to reduce it) - no extra jobs are created (how can they be?) - the business owner increases his/her profits (why wouldn't they?) Don't get me wrong, your theory is nice, however, in the real world of coffee shops and casual workers being paid penalty rates, it's just not relevant. |
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Title: Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates Post by crocodile on Sep 8th, 2014 at 4:28pm greggerypeccary wrote on Sep 8th, 2014 at 4:11pm:
You've explained nothing. By your logic, since price signals with elastic supply sides don't effect retail demand let's raise the price of a coffee to $100 per serve. With undiminished sales we can afford to lift penalties to $1000 per day and a free trip to Fiji every month. |
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Title: Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates Post by greggerypeccary on Sep 8th, 2014 at 4:35pm crocodile wrote on Sep 8th, 2014 at 4:28pm:
I've explained the truth. Finish uni, get a job, experience the real world for a few years and you might just start to understand. |
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Title: Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates Post by adelcrow on Sep 8th, 2014 at 4:43pm
Workchoices is dead...another Abbott lie
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Title: Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates Post by crocodile on Sep 8th, 2014 at 4:48pm greggerypeccary wrote on Sep 8th, 2014 at 4:35pm:
Is that the best you can do. Can't explain it because it's a load of tosh. Because reality doesn't fit within your utopian view of how the world should work you ignorantly fail to take into account the ensuing competition created by diminished input margins nor increased sales volumes by retail price reduction. It is you that needs to understand. By the way, I'm 57. The undergrad days are well and truly long gone. |
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Title: Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates Post by greggerypeccary on Sep 8th, 2014 at 6:54pm crocodile wrote on Sep 8th, 2014 at 4:48pm:
You haven't been listening: there won't be a retail price reduction. The workers will be paid less, and the business owner will pocket the extra cash. That's it. There will be no increase in sales volumes, as absolutely nothing will change for the customer. |
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Title: Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates Post by crocodile on Sep 8th, 2014 at 7:30pm greggerypeccary wrote on Sep 8th, 2014 at 6:54pm:
Maybe in your fantasyland. Try and tell the world that any business owner when faced with an opportunity to increase sales volumes without penalty wouldn't take it. Dream on. |
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Title: Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates Post by greggerypeccary on Sep 8th, 2014 at 7:41pm crocodile wrote on Sep 8th, 2014 at 7:30pm:
It has absolutely nothing to do with my own personal "utopias" or "fantasy-lands". I'm just explaining how the real world operates. I'm being completely objective. A business owner is not going to lower the price of coffee, just because penalty rates are abolished. He'll pocket the extra cash and the casual workers will receive less money per hour on weekends. Nothing else will change. Even if you were right, and he did reduce the price, and thus increase sales, he's still not going to hire any additional staff: the existing staff will just be required to work harder, and longer (for less). Any way you look at it, abolishing penalty rates won't create jobs. |
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Title: Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates Post by crocodile on Sep 8th, 2014 at 8:52pm greggerypeccary wrote on Sep 8th, 2014 at 7:41pm:
He will if any increase in volume is above the capacity of existing staff and the increase in revenue justifies it. Pretty fundamental logic really. If the opportunity to increase revenue is presented it will be taken with both arms. |
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Title: Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates Post by Dnarever on Sep 8th, 2014 at 8:55pm crocodile wrote on Sep 8th, 2014 at 7:30pm:
an opportunity to increase sales volumes The status quo stays the same - there is no opportunity to increase sales volumes. As soon as one reduces his/her price the rest have to follow - the result is the product would sell cheaper but everyones volume would remain the same. They all know this so the result is that they all keep prices the same and take the profit. |
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Title: Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates Post by Dnarever on Sep 8th, 2014 at 8:59pm Swagman wrote on Sep 8th, 2014 at 1:53pm:
Because the price of a coffee is subject to competition. More because they often are able to sell about 10 times the volume on a week end in the right location. |
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Title: Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates Post by crocodile on Sep 8th, 2014 at 9:14pm Dnarever wrote on Sep 8th, 2014 at 8:55pm:
You're neglecting the effect of lower pricing on aggregate demand. |
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Title: Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates Post by crocodile on Sep 8th, 2014 at 9:15pm Dnarever wrote on Sep 8th, 2014 at 8:59pm:
And even more if the price comes down. |
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Title: Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates Post by Team Knight Errant Grappler on Sep 8th, 2014 at 9:20pm Swagman wrote on Sep 8th, 2014 at 3:02pm:
I don't - I champion decency, reason and fair play. Just because I am the Ace of aces doesn't mean that people shouldn't work for penalty rates. I had penalty rates included - usually there by Tuesday some time.... I worked under an agreement - with the basis the award rate of pay and payment for running costs. |
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Title: Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates Post by Dnarever on Sep 8th, 2014 at 9:27pm crocodile wrote on Sep 8th, 2014 at 9:15pm:
I doubt it - Coffee drinkers buy coffee anyway, it isn't really a price decision and there is no likelihood that the price would come down at all. |
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Title: Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates Post by Dnarever on Sep 8th, 2014 at 9:29pm crocodile wrote on Sep 8th, 2014 at 9:14pm:
People don't tend to buy a second coffee and charging $4.30 instead of $4.50 is not going to make any difference. |
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Title: Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates Post by crocodile on Sep 8th, 2014 at 10:35pm Dnarever wrote on Sep 8th, 2014 at 9:27pm:
Doubt if you want. If it's not a price decision why not charge $20 a cup. |
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Title: Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates Post by SupositoryofWisdom on Sep 8th, 2014 at 10:47pm greggerypeccary wrote on Sep 8th, 2014 at 7:41pm:
Dead right |
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Title: Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates Post by John Smith on Sep 8th, 2014 at 10:50pm
I like the comments made on Q&A today
if they're going to look at penalty rates, they should also look at reducing the salaries and bonuses of all the upper mgmt and the exectutives |
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Title: Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates Post by John Smith on Sep 8th, 2014 at 10:51pm crocodile wrote on Sep 8th, 2014 at 10:35pm:
coffee shops will charge what the market will pay .... if they could get away with charging $20, they would .... it has already been established that the market will pay approx. $5 for a coffee, why would they reduce that just because they don't need to pay penalty rates? |
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Title: Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates Post by SupositoryofWisdom on Sep 8th, 2014 at 10:53pm
Wouldn't people have less disposable income if they were working the same hours for no penalty rates? Wouldn't they then have less to spend on the products that the businesses are trying to flog off?
Employ more staff to do exactly what the staff they have now are achieving. Is there all of sudden going to be a mass influx of people with less money to spend. Back to drawing board, again Tony. Is Tony's "plan" for the million jobs in 5 years lol |
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Title: Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates Post by John Smith on Sep 8th, 2014 at 10:59pm
I agree with penalty rates, and would never propose abolishing them, but even I agree that some things need to be looked at
I was talking to someone who works as a traffic controller (they hold up the stop / go sign during road works etc)... one of the jobs they are working on is the Pacific Fair extensions on the Gold Coast. Because its a shopping centre and they want to keep trading, a lot of the work has to occur at night ... my traffic controller friend stands to get $75 per hour for doing night shift I don't begrudge this person their money, good on them if they can get it, but $75 to hold up a stop/ go sign? Thats $600 per nioght, or $3000 per week (gross). then people complain that property is Australia is expensive :D :D :D :D |
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Title: Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates Post by crocodile on Sep 8th, 2014 at 11:59pm John Smith wrote on Sep 8th, 2014 at 10:51pm:
Another load of rubbish. The 'market' will pay $10. The volume would go down of course as demand drops off. Likewise, the 'market' would increase if the price dropped as demand picks up. The retailer sets the price where the best trade-off between volume and margin generates the greatest profit. No doubt that point would change with a change in marginal input costs. |
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Title: Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates Post by John Smith on Sep 9th, 2014 at 7:35am crocodile wrote on Sep 8th, 2014 at 11:59pm:
not sure where you live but in my area the average price of a coffee is $5 .... I'm going to open a coffee shop in your area if they're $10 The retailer sets the price where the best trade-off between volume and margin generates the greatest profit wrong, the retailer will charge as much as he can get away with ... retailers have proven this time and time again. It is the same reason why woolies and coles would charge one price in one area for a product, and a different price in another area ... even though the cost price was the same for both areas |
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Title: Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates Post by crocodile on Sep 9th, 2014 at 7:49am John Smith wrote on Sep 9th, 2014 at 7:35am:
Good, we're in agreement then. You're essentially saying the same thing. As much as he can get away with is the best trade-off between volume and margin that yields the highest profit. |
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Title: Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates Post by John Smith on Sep 9th, 2014 at 8:29am crocodile wrote on Sep 9th, 2014 at 7:49am:
no, as much as they can get away with is exactly that ... you are part of the reason why in Australia things are so expensive ... you believe their excuses. I can buy aussie made products overseas for less than I can buy them here .... thats not a trade off, thats extortion |
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Title: Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates Post by Dnarever on Sep 9th, 2014 at 8:47am crocodile wrote on Sep 8th, 2014 at 10:35pm:
It isn't a price decision within the normal market parameters. You have to get to silly numbers to make the point which in normal terms is not relevant. In a shopping centre I will often get a coffee from the nearest retailer without even looking at the price, I do not think I have ever walked to the other end because the coffee is 20 cents cheaper there. If I cover extra distance or go to a specific outlet it will be because I like the coffee and probably do not even remember what they charge. If you think you can sell your coffee for $20 when all your competition is at below $5 then good luck with that. Next thing you will be saying is why not charge $20 for a packet of smokes _ whoops too late. |
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Title: Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates Post by Swagman on Sep 9th, 2014 at 8:58am John Smith wrote on Sep 8th, 2014 at 10:59pm:
There's slight hope for you yet Smithy. :D |
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Title: Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates Post by greggerypeccary on Sep 9th, 2014 at 9:25am crocodile wrote on Sep 8th, 2014 at 8:52pm:
It's irrelevant, anyway: he's not going to drop the price of coffee, just because penalty rates are abolished. It aint gonna happen. |
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Title: Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates Post by crocodile on Sep 9th, 2014 at 9:36am John Smith wrote on Sep 9th, 2014 at 8:29am:
I'm not part of any problem or reason or excuse. I've made no statements as to whether or not I even support the proposals. I'm just telling you how it is. |
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Title: Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates Post by crocodile on Sep 9th, 2014 at 9:38am greggerypeccary wrote on Sep 9th, 2014 at 9:25am:
It's entirely relevant if it affects gross profit. Retailers always try to maximize profit. |
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Title: Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates Post by ImSpartacus2 on Sep 9th, 2014 at 9:40am
I have never raced out of bed on a saturday/sunday morning to get a cup of coffee because I heard that coffees were going cheap at coffee shop X today. And when I arrive at the various coffee shops the difference of the price of the coffee between them (if any, and I stress if any because its rare that there is a difference, esp when they're operating side by side) is not a factor that I pay any regard to in deciding where I will sit. More often then not its whether I have had a good cup of coffee at that place before, if its clean, doesn't smell and the atmosphere is nice. It's very hard to put it more accurately then greggery already has including the part that the Croc here is just sprouting the basics he picked up in first year uni all those years ago and hasn't allowed his personal experience to build on what his formal education taught him. Its too bad.
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Title: Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates Post by Dnarever on Sep 9th, 2014 at 9:42am John Smith wrote on Sep 8th, 2014 at 10:59pm:
get $75 per hour for doing night shift Night shift rates are typically around 15% I find $75 an hour difficult to believe if attributed to penalty rates it would put his normal hourly rate at about $65 on a normal week day. It could be realistic for a Sunday night ? Is he working this as an overtime shift ? |
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Title: Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates Post by greggerypeccary on Sep 9th, 2014 at 9:42am crocodile wrote on Sep 9th, 2014 at 9:36am:
You're just telling how it might be, not how it actually is. In the real world, business owners don't drop the price of their products if their wage bill goes down. Abolishing penalty rates won't drop the price of anything, and won't create any new jobs. |
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Title: Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates Post by John Smith on Sep 9th, 2014 at 9:43am Swagman wrote on Sep 9th, 2014 at 8:58am:
whats the matter Swag, thrown you into a loop now that your pigeon holes don't fit? I don't know anyone that isn't open to reasonalbe debate apart from those on the right. Calling for penalty rates to be abolished is not reasonible. |
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Title: Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates Post by ImSpartacus2 on Sep 9th, 2014 at 9:48am crocodile wrote on Sep 9th, 2014 at 9:38am:
Indeed, that's why they will always resist putting on new staff. Much easier just to pocket the $$$ they would otherwise have had to pay in penalty rates. That's a significant win for them and they wont be risking that win by gingering up their competitor right next door by lowering their price. One thing the ACCC has demonstrated over and over and over again since 1974. You dont need to have one word pass between competitors to have a price fixing arrangement. |
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Title: Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates Post by John Smith on Sep 9th, 2014 at 9:48am Dnarever wrote on Sep 9th, 2014 at 9:42am:
no not overtime its the shift rate, its a she and she keeps telling me how she hopes they put her on night shift instead of day because of the rate. Even at $65 per hours, its ridiculous to pay someone that much for holding a sign ... on this site they need about a dozen traffic controllers, at $65 that $780 an hour or almost $6300 per 8hr shift, and not a single iota of production form these people. |
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Title: Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates Post by crocodile on Sep 9th, 2014 at 9:51am Dnarever wrote on Sep 9th, 2014 at 8:47am:
At last, you're learning. The fella selling at $20 will make no money because his volume will be zilch. He has to drop his price. He will settle at the sweet spot where volume x margin yields the maximum profit. If there is any change in demand because of a price restructure the sweet spot will move. By the way, do you think that the reduction in smoking over the years might just have a little bit to do with the price of a packet of fags. |
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Title: Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates Post by greggerypeccary on Sep 9th, 2014 at 9:52am ImSpartacus2 wrote on Sep 9th, 2014 at 9:48am:
Precisely. If penalty rates were abolished, the owners would increase their profits straight away , by doing absolutely nothing different. |
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Title: Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates Post by Dnarever on Sep 9th, 2014 at 9:53am crocodile wrote on Sep 9th, 2014 at 9:36am:
I would think that those disagreeing with you believe that that isn't the way it is. Realistically they will not reduce the price as to do so would mean their competition being forced to do the same thing which would make nobody better off except the customer. Most business try to avoid price wars as it isn't in their own best interests. By doing nothing they get to increase profits for all and that it obviously what would happen. In cases where there is no competition they would still be unlikely to reduce the price as they already have the market sewn up while the argument for additional trade is possible though it would be heavily dependent on market saturation and other factors. Lower risk to just take the additional profit the lazy way and without risk. |
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Title: Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates Post by John Smith on Sep 9th, 2014 at 9:54am greggerypeccary wrote on Sep 9th, 2014 at 9:52am:
which would mean rents in shopping centres would go up by the same amount .... making the real beneficiaries of abolishing penalty rates not the coffee shop owner, but the ones who don't need it |
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Title: Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates Post by Dnarever on Sep 9th, 2014 at 10:03am crocodile wrote on Sep 9th, 2014 at 9:51am:
At last, you're learning. The fella selling at $20 will make no money because his volume will be zilch You are the one suggesting $20. The problem isn't your market philosophy - it is just that it will not happen. They will just take the easy profit the lazy way with no risk associated. If people are throwing money at you the best policy is to try to catch it. |
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Title: Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates Post by greggerypeccary on Sep 9th, 2014 at 10:04am John Smith wrote on Sep 9th, 2014 at 9:48am:
Hey, that's a bit harsh. I've actually seen road workers hit by speeding and careless drivers. Without those traffic controllers, there'd be a lot more deaths and injuries. They do a good job. |
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Title: Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates Post by Dnarever on Sep 9th, 2014 at 10:07am John Smith wrote on Sep 9th, 2014 at 9:48am:
Does she need an assistant to carry the sign for her ? |
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Title: Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates Post by John Smith on Sep 9th, 2014 at 10:18am greggerypeccary wrote on Sep 9th, 2014 at 10:04am:
true, but a few well placed mobile lights with sensors could do the same thing |
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Title: Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates Post by John Smith on Sep 9th, 2014 at 10:20am Dnarever wrote on Sep 9th, 2014 at 10:07am:
no, big shopping centre that goes around a whole block with several intersections, driveways etc to control ... |
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Title: Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates Post by Dnarever on Sep 9th, 2014 at 10:33am John Smith wrote on Sep 9th, 2014 at 9:48am:
The rate seems to be between $17 Hr and $33 Hr . NSW seem to pay penalty rates of 25% which would be about $41 on a rate of #33 per hour. Higher for casuals. This looks reasonable to me. |
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Title: Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates Post by Swagman on Sep 9th, 2014 at 10:33am John Smith wrote on Sep 9th, 2014 at 9:43am:
On the contrary it is the Left that won't budge on IR reform. I am totally for common sense in this area. There are many variables that may justify paying a higher rate of pay on Sunday's, at night, on public holidays etc. The left don't deal in variables though. The Left paints justabout all situations with the one brush. That is the "not reasonible" part Smithy. |
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Title: Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates Post by John Smith on Sep 9th, 2014 at 10:56am Swagman wrote on Sep 9th, 2014 at 10:33am:
if you want a different reaction from the left how about starting the conversations with something other than 'abolish penalty rates'? Why not start at the top and cut CEO's rates and bonuses, then work your way down to those on the bottom. And I'm not talking 1% cut for the top of the pyramid and 25% cut for those on the bottom ... keep it fair |
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Title: Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates Post by ImSpartacus2 on Sep 9th, 2014 at 11:15am Swagman wrote on Sep 9th, 2014 at 10:33am:
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Title: Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates Post by Swagman on Sep 9th, 2014 at 11:26am John Smith wrote on Sep 9th, 2014 at 10:56am:
CEO pay rates are not set by IR law as far as I understand? Do I think that some of these people are paid ridiculous amounts? Yes, absolutely. That is for the owners of the company that employs them. If you own shares go to the company AGM and protest / vote against the pay. John Smith wrote on Sep 9th, 2014 at 10:56am:
Here's a reasonable question for you Smithy. The poll asks Quote:
Currently the poll is 4 yes and 14 no. I asked the poll poster (John S) a question but he didn't answer, so I'll ask you the same one. If you were unemployed and were offered work at single time at night or on weekends would you take it or stay on unemployment benefits? :-? Lets assume for arguments sake that the pay is much more than what you'f get on Newstart. :( |
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Title: Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates Post by Team Knight Errant Grappler on Sep 9th, 2014 at 11:47am Swagman wrote on Sep 9th, 2014 at 10:33am:
"IR reform'? You mean IR change to suit business only? Are they so incapable of running their own business that they need Daddy/Mummy (DUMMY) government to intervene on their behalf and steal from their workers so they can make a profit? Maybe they should consider taking a lower cut for themselves instead of wanting the whole pie. How is the 'left' view that penalty rates apply to public holidays , shift work and weekends "applying the same brush to all"? Nobody is here demanding that penalty rates be applied to every working hour - the only demand here is for reductions to those with the lowest incomes through abolishing their penalty rates. Nobody here or elsewhere is demanding any "IR reform" to give MORE money - the only demand here is for reduction of income to some. You don't see Tony or Andrei the Laugh a Minute or Fat Joe applying for "IR reform" to reduce their salary or perks payment for working odd hours etc, which is part of their salary and income. Same with all those on salaries, but, of course, as the 'better' class they should be exempt, right? I'd hardly call that "IR reform" - just a demand from the ruling classes that their serfs be paid less. $75 an hour to hold a traffic sign - SHOW ME! Maybe in the middle of the night on a public holiday in the pouring rain while underground in seepage and with the possibility of a falling roof..... as a casual...... Bullshit! (Just speaking plainly).... ;D BTW:- What 'variables' are there in working on Sunday, at midnight or on a public holiday? What part of 'penalty rates for out of ordinary hours, etc' do you not understand? So - a parking cop should get paid penalty for working nights or Sundays, but a pub worker shouldn't? One rule for some, another rule for others? A guy working underground in a mine should not get penalty for working Sunday midnight on Christmas Day - but a cop should, or a nurse, or a fireman? Where do you live, Swag? |
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Title: Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates Post by Swagman on Sep 9th, 2014 at 12:11pm Grappler Racist Filth wrote on Sep 9th, 2014 at 11:47am:
No. I mean reform for common sense or dare I use the word "choice". :o Grappler Racist Filth wrote on Sep 9th, 2014 at 11:47am:
Many small business people already do. They may make a loss but they still pay their employees at their same rate. It works the other way too admittedly. They may be making a motsa and don't pay their employees any more. Pay rates don't alter because business is bad do they, unless your income is dependent upon your bottom line like that of a small business proprietor? Grappler Racist Filth wrote on Sep 9th, 2014 at 11:47am:
Because all business situations on public holidays , shift work and weekends are not identical. Some businesses will make lots more money others not. The ones that don't are the ones that likely keep their doors shut. The 'choice' factor is that when there are people 'unemployed' they may 'choose' to work a job on a Sunday at a single rate because they need a job and the pay that it represents. |
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Title: Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates Post by Team Knight Errant Grappler on Sep 9th, 2014 at 12:21pm
But, Swag - wages are not dependent on the amount a business makes... they are part of the cost of running a business. If a business loses money on one day of the week that is a part of the deal to retain the customer base.
Chatting with a supervisor at the club where I work t'other night - I drive the courtesy bus - and the local servo where we get fuel is closed for three months. You reckon the other two in town are staying open after 6pm to capture custom? Not on your life! She used to run one of those with her husband - they stayed open from 6am to 10pm, and some hours are diamonds and some are stones. That's the nature of small business. Some days are diamonds.. some are stones. Yet accept that or leave it, but you do not demand that someone you employ carry the stones for you while you take only the diamonds. What you do do (sic) is you open at hours to suit clients so as to get them to come back in the knowledge that they will get their product when they want it. If Guiseppe Bloggovich across the road at the Parasite Cafe chooses to close on Sunday or a public holiday when the town is holding a festival... and you choose to stay open and pay the going rate to three girls to do the work while reaping coffee times five with a Sunday added rate..... that's his lookout. Next Sunday Guiseppe opens as usual, but nobody goes there... he's not reliable enough.... "Oh - look - I didn't know the Parasite was open on Sundays! He must only be there today for some reason. Not many there, though. Drink up!" |
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Title: Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates Post by John Smith on Sep 9th, 2014 at 12:31pm Swagman wrote on Sep 9th, 2014 at 11:26am:
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Title: Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates Post by Team Knight Errant Grappler on Sep 9th, 2014 at 12:32pm
Oh - the local servo closed down for refurbishment etc is owned and run by Indians... they work 6-10 every day, and it's a family business. the other two servos in town run 8 or 9 to 6.... not on Sundays.
Anyone else on work value and ethic? And on who ends up making a profit? |
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Title: Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates Post by John Smith on Sep 9th, 2014 at 12:34pm Grappler Racist Filth wrote on Sep 9th, 2014 at 11:47am:
nope, that was the night time rate she told me, she had no reason to lie GC hasn't had a lot of rain lately and they're standing on the road, what roof? casual perhaps, she might very well be. ... |
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Title: Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates Post by Swagman on Sep 9th, 2014 at 12:38pm Grappler Racist Filth wrote on Sep 9th, 2014 at 11:47am:
As my profile states. The Illawarra NSW. Grappler Racist Filth wrote on Sep 9th, 2014 at 11:47am:
Some businesses get very busy on a Sunday others don't. Location can be a variable. A business may be located in a tourist town that gets a 'swag' of city day trippers. The local stores make a motsa, trade would be very busy and staff would totally earn a higher rate of pay. Alternatively, a similar business in a boring old suburb won't get any extra trade on a Sunday. It may well be much quieter and the business owner may well make the decision to stay closed rather than open and pay a worker double time. Grappler Racist Filth wrote on Sep 9th, 2014 at 11:47am:
Depends upon the situation. A cop working the Cross on New Years Eve is obviously on a more difficult job than a cop in a sleepy little town full of pensioners on New Years Eve. Pay rates should be different. Nurses in major hospitals are generally super busy on Fri and Sat nights and can justify a higher rate of pay but a nurse in an aged care facility likely wouldn't experience any significant difference to work levels whether it was a weekend or not. Why should they both be paid double time? Is a bloke working underground on a Sunday, or midnight or on Christmas Day producing more? Is the job harder? :-? |
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Title: Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates Post by John Smith on Sep 9th, 2014 at 12:42pm Swagman wrote on Sep 9th, 2014 at 12:38pm:
my home |
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Title: Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates Post by John Smith on Sep 9th, 2014 at 12:44pm Swagman wrote on Sep 9th, 2014 at 12:38pm:
does it matter? He is working underground, at midnight or on Christmas Day ... all times he'd rather be home with his family ... if the boss wants him to work those times, he should pay more. |
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Title: Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates Post by greggerypeccary on Sep 9th, 2014 at 12:52pm Swagman wrote on Sep 9th, 2014 at 12:38pm:
No. That's not what penalty rates are for. Penalty rates are 'an acknowledgement that working unsociable hours can contribute to an unsociable life. You miss out on family events like birthday parties or joining friends for dinner. And children miss out seeing their parents or their grandparents who work unsociable hours. If you’re in a relationship you might see your partner less often.' Nothing to do with productivity or how hard the job is. Should you really be discussing penalty rates, if you don't actually understand what they are for? |
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Title: Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates Post by John Smith on Sep 9th, 2014 at 12:55pm John Smith wrote on Sep 9th, 2014 at 12:31pm:
by the way Swag, before you start with the 'it was my choice to work those extra hours'... it wasn't .. my options were that I did the overtime for free or I could leave .... and i wasn't the only one |
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Title: Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates Post by crocodile on Sep 9th, 2014 at 12:55pm Dnarever wrote on Sep 9th, 2014 at 10:03am:
I'm suggesting $20 for the exercise because Smithy intimated that demand is unaffected by price way back on page 2. You seem to suggest that all business owners are lazy sods that would do jack to look at ways of increasing profits. |
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Title: Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates Post by Swagman on Sep 9th, 2014 at 12:57pm John Smith wrote on Sep 9th, 2014 at 12:42pm:
A few clues. We have a dog track and a race course... ;) John Smith wrote on Sep 9th, 2014 at 12:44pm:
Only if there are not enough people to fill the job. Some people might prefer to work at those times. |
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Title: Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates Post by John Smith on Sep 9th, 2014 at 12:58pm Swagman wrote on Sep 9th, 2014 at 12:57pm:
they're the ones that aren't qualified |
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Title: Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates Post by greggerypeccary on Sep 9th, 2014 at 1:00pm crocodile wrote on Sep 9th, 2014 at 12:55pm:
You're getting off track. From the OP: "EMPLOYERS would hire more young workers within months if the federal government reformed workplace laws to free up penalty rates, Liberal MPs are claiming, as they renew a push for changes." No, they wouldn't. Employers would not hire more people to do the same amount of work. They'd have a lower wage bill, and nothing else would change. |
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Title: Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates Post by John Smith on Sep 9th, 2014 at 1:05pm
your either in Bulli or Dapto .... not redneck enough and to uppity for Dapto so I'm voting for Bulli ...
although I'm not sure what you mean by race track ... apart from the dog track as far as I'm aware neither Bulli or Dapto have a race track .. unless its a recent addition |
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Title: Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates Post by crocodile on Sep 9th, 2014 at 1:14pm ImSpartacus2 wrote on Sep 9th, 2014 at 9:40am:
You really are an ignorant tosser. Just for your edification you should revisit page two of the thread of which I have produced an excerpt just to make it uncomplicated for you. You will find that I have not expressly advocated the removal of penalties. On the contrary, I have shown scenarios where it could even be detrimental. The last few pages are responses to those who say that price reduction or employment opportunities are absolutely impossible under any circumstances. That is not correct in all cases. Now piss off. Your trying to simplify something that is not so simple. There are hordes of factors at play. Given the right circumstances the abolition of penalties could allow employment opportunities. In other cases it may not. Believe it or not, it could, in some cases be detrimental. You would probably find that if one of the competitors reduced their rates the others would follow and because they all understand this they more than likely would all keep their prices up and take the increased profit. They would all get the same advantage. I won't buy that one. Business owners are there for profit. If they can garner a competitive edge you can bet your balls they'll go for it. Not only is commercial collusion against the law it also leads to diminished demand as the reactions to market conditions disappears. You are neglecting the situation where increasing the turnover through lower retail pricing may lead to increases in profit so long as the increased volume is sufficient to cover the diminished price. The overall point shown here though is that these guys are not short on staff because of penalty rates - the options relate to demand change or additional opportunity. Demand change is what the whole argument is about. It is possible, but not always that reduced marginal input costs leaves the additional opportunity bit wide open. If it widens sufficiently to justify the employment of another body, that is what will happen. If not, it won't Of course since the change would still maintain the same competitive status quo they could always do the same things with no change. You're assuming that the relationship between the retail price and product demand is a perfectly linear one. This is a fraught assumption as they mostly never are, particularly when market saturation is reached. There is also the supply / demand situation to be considered on the labour side of the equation. It is also possible in some industries that the abolition of penalties may even cause the supply of labour to dry up as employees seek other opportunities due to income reduction. In this case it is even likely that employers may find themselves actually paying above the rate to keep staff. Like I said. It's not quite so simple. |
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Title: Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates Post by Team Knight Errant Grappler on Sep 9th, 2014 at 1:17pm Swagman wrote on Sep 9th, 2014 at 12:38pm:
Swag - it doesn't matter if the business is busy or not - the employees are not shareholders. They are paid to be there - the owner earns by being there and by employing them. See the difference? It's like the discussion of 'wage gap' - women EARN less through working less hours - they are paid wages at the same rate for the same work. An employee is paid the same rate regardless of how busy the place is - the owner earns what is earned from the level of busy-ness.... An employee is paid according to the rules for time worked etc - the owner earns what he/she earns from operating the business regardless of hours. It's a decision everyone has to make if they want a business.. and be prepared to put in the hours and the work. I don't see many running away from the chance to get into business.. the lurks are too good. |
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Title: Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates Post by Team Knight Errant Grappler on Sep 9th, 2014 at 1:19pm John Smith wrote on Sep 9th, 2014 at 1:05pm:
Dapto and Bulli've gone to the dogs...... they have Bulli and Dapto races with puppies, I think.... $75 an hour? I'm in the wrong business.... |
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Title: Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates Post by Swagman on Sep 9th, 2014 at 1:20pm John Smith wrote on Sep 9th, 2014 at 1:05pm:
"Redneck and uppity Dapto it is".. ;D The race course is Kembla Grange, technically not Dapto but it's close enough. |
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Title: Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates Post by crocodile on Sep 9th, 2014 at 1:20pm greggerypeccary wrote on Sep 9th, 2014 at 1:00pm:
I never said I agreed. I did say, if you read the earlier pages that it wasn't so simple. My comment from page two: "Your trying to simplify something that is not so simple. There are hordes of factors at play. Given the right circumstances the abolition of penalties could allow employment opportunities. In other cases it may not. Believe it or not, it could, in some cases be detrimental." The responses of the last few pages are to those who seem to think that what the politician said is absolutely impossible in all cases. It's not. |
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Title: Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates Post by Team Knight Errant Grappler on Sep 9th, 2014 at 1:25pm Swagman wrote on Sep 9th, 2014 at 1:20pm:
We have Kalaru near here - used to be like Vacy - one day a year - now it's three I think... maybe more.... no puppies here or trots... only gallops. |
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Title: Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates Post by John Smith on Sep 9th, 2014 at 1:44pm Swagman wrote on Sep 9th, 2014 at 1:20pm:
of course, sorry, forgot about Kembla Grange ... don't know how considering I've lived in Unanderra, Lake Heights & Warrawong (amongst others) and had a warehouse not far from Kambla Grange . Used to go to that feedstock supplier on Northcliff drive all the time for my dog meat and pet supplies ... |
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Title: Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates Post by ImSpartacus2 on Sep 9th, 2014 at 2:23pm crocodile wrote on Sep 9th, 2014 at 1:20pm:
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Title: Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates Post by Dnarever on Sep 9th, 2014 at 2:46pm John Smith wrote on Sep 9th, 2014 at 10:20am:
Building industry award pays a lot better but also can be more dangerous. |
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Title: Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates Post by Dnarever on Sep 9th, 2014 at 2:52pm crocodile wrote on Sep 9th, 2014 at 12:55pm:
You seem to suggest that all business owners are lazy sods that would do jack to look at ways of increasing profits No I suggest that they are smart enough to take a zero cost zero effort profit in favour of starting a turf war where all lose. I am actually accusing them of being fairly smart. Smithy intimated that demand is unaffected by price It is unaffected by the type of marginal realistic price variations we would be talking about if there was any chance of it happening. On the topic there has always existed absolutely zero evidence to suggest that the removal of penalty rates would lead to any increase in employment. |
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Title: Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates Post by crocodile on Sep 9th, 2014 at 3:46pm ImSpartacus2 wrote on Sep 9th, 2014 at 2:23pm:
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Title: Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates Post by crocodile on Sep 9th, 2014 at 3:54pm Dnarever wrote on Sep 9th, 2014 at 2:52pm:
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Title: Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates Post by Team Knight Errant Grappler on Sep 9th, 2014 at 4:53pm
.. then why are we discussing the silly and totally unfounded idea that reducing penalty rates will lead to more younger person employment? It is obvious that either it will or will not, but nobody knows for sure, but any lever to gain a profit for business while we have an Abbott-style government in will do.
Common sense dictates that it will not. No organisation will sell more coffee than it does, therefore no organisation will employ anyone more than it has to, regardless of the rate of pay to workers. It is painfully obvious that this is nothing more than self-interested rhetoric from the employers union.... Thank you all for your input. |
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Title: Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates Post by crocodile on Sep 9th, 2014 at 5:57pm Grappler Racist Filth wrote on Sep 9th, 2014 at 4:53pm:
Penalties apply to more than just the coffee shop industry. The coffee was cited as an example. Still, you're right, without a proper analysis nobody knows. That's what I've been saying all along. The issues are not simple. The external factors go way beyond a simple pay scale variant. The variation on both externalities and internals across all industry sectors is large. One cannot simply say "It won't work" or even "It will work". |
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Title: Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates Post by Swagman on Sep 9th, 2014 at 8:33pm Grappler Racist Filth wrote on Sep 9th, 2014 at 4:53pm:
Common sense dictates the opposite. If just one business opens on Sunday and employs just one unemployed person at single time then your argument is a dud..... :D Also, the poll is also testimony to it. :-? |
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Title: Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates Post by greggerypeccary on Sep 9th, 2014 at 8:39pm Swagman wrote on Sep 9th, 2014 at 8:33pm:
An existing casual employee will do the work on Sunday. |
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Title: Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates Post by Swagman on Sep 9th, 2014 at 8:53pm greggerypeccary wrote on Sep 9th, 2014 at 8:39pm:
Not everywhere Greggy. What about the places that didn't open at all? |
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Title: Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates Post by crocodile on Sep 9th, 2014 at 9:12pm Grappler Racist Filth wrote on Sep 9th, 2014 at 4:53pm:
They certainly will if lowering prices shifts the demand vs margin in their favour. It would be poor business practice to not explore it. |
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Title: Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates Post by John Smith on Sep 9th, 2014 at 9:58pm crocodile wrote on Sep 9th, 2014 at 9:12pm:
and if it doesn't, are you going to re-instate penalty rates? It's easy to gamble with other peoples money, you want to gamble, do it with your own |
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Title: Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates Post by Dnarever on Sep 9th, 2014 at 10:17pm crocodile wrote on Sep 9th, 2014 at 3:54pm:
Quote:
You wouldn't notice if a competitor was undercutting your prices and taking all your customers and then follow up by reducing your rates to compete ? This isn't collusion but it is the most likely outcome of anyone trying to take a commercial advantage in this type of situation. Quote:
It is difficult to identify any realistic examples and coffee is not one of them. Any business which could be viable to operate on weekends are already in play and for anyone where the decision is so tight that penalty rates matter the decision should be to stay closed anyway because it isn't going to work. The reality is that the only impact is less pay for employees and more profit for business. Its a greedy money grab nothing more. |
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